April 25, 2025 • 42 mins
Join our podcast with John and Greg as they interview Elisabeth Bachman. Elizabeth Bachman is THE go-to person for advanced-level training in Speaking, Presentation Skills, Career Development, and Leadership. With a lifetime spent perfecting the art of presenting, she helps high-level clients get the promotion/job/recognition they deserve — within an organization and within an industry. “Change the way you are perceived by changing the way you communicate.”
Drawing from her unique career in directing more than 50operas around the world and founding her own company, she now helps professionals overcome communication barriers that prevent them from being recognized and advancing in their careers.
At the heart of Elizabeth's approach is a profound insight: men and women often struggle to communicate effectively because they're essentially speaking different languages while using the same words. She reframes this challenge by distinguishing between "single-focus thinkers" (traditionally men) who process one task at a time and "multi-focus thinkers" (traditionally women) who maintain multiple threads simultaneously and value relationships and context. This isn't about gender politics but rather understanding different communication styles to bridge the gap.
The stakes are high—Elizabeth shares research showing organizations with diverse voices in leadership achieve up to 35% higher profits, yet many senior women become so frustrated at not being heard that they exit companies, creating substantial costs in lost talent and recruitment. Through her "Visible and Valued" program and upcoming book, she teaches professionals to adapt their communication style without losing authenticity, using the principles of "awareness, adaptation, and allies."
One compelling success story involves an IT specialist named Janet who had been stuck at senior director level for 13 years despite consistently solving problems. After working with Elizabeth to frame her contributions strategically and engage stakeholders individually, Janet's company created a vice president position specifically for her, later promoting her to CIO.
Whether you're a woman fighting to be heard, a man wanting to be a better ally, or anyone looking to communicate more effectively, Elizabeth's insights transform how we understand workplace dynamics. Her message is clear: strategic speaking gets results when you learn to translate your ideas into a language your audience can hear.
Presented by John Wandolowski and Greg Powell
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Well, welcome to Success Secrets and Stories.
My name is John Winovsky andI'm the host, and I'm here with
my co-host and friend, gregPowell.
Greg, hey, everybody, yeah, andtoday we're going to speak
about presentation andpresentation skills, and I think
we're going to have some funwith this subject.
I'd like to introduce ElizabethBachman, the go-to person for
(00:37):
advanced level training inspeaking presentation skills,
career development andleadership.
With a lifetime spentperfecting the art of
presentations, she helpshigh-level clients get the
promotion, the job, therecognition they deserve Within
an organization and within theindustry.
Change is the way that you areperceived by changing the way
(01:00):
that you communicate.
Strategic speaking for resultswhen you want to make a
difference, not just the point.
Welcome, elizabeth.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Thank you, John and Greg.
I'm delighted to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
So a little bit of your background.
That was truly intriguing isthat not only have you helped
people in terms of theirpresentation skills in the
industry world, in the CEO world, in the business world, but you
also have started 30 differentoperas, if I'm correct.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
I directed 30 different operas.
Far more important to direct Iwas an international opera
director, and I did that for 30years around the world,
directing people such well.
The names you would have heardwould be Luciano Pavarotti,
placido Domingo and hundreds andhundreds of others.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
One moment where you had a call late at night and in
24 hours an individual was goingto give a presentation and
maybe talking about how thatpresentation to an expert and a
coach was so important that theperson who called you called you
(02:19):
at three o'clock in the morning.
Maybe you could talk about thatone.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Yeah Well, this was a very well-known client of mine
and he was really nervous.
He had a big presentation togive and he was thinking can I
still do it?
Will they still like me?
And I said, well, let'spractice, that's what I'm for.
And he said, oh, no, no, I'mtoo busy, I'm just going to wing
it.
(02:44):
And you know, I couldn't forcehim to practice and he worried
and he waited, and he waited andhe worried until finally, the
night before the presentationwas due, he called me up at 3
o'clock in the morning Becauseyou know he couldn't sleep, so
why should I?
He was that kind of guy.
(03:05):
But anyway, we met the nextmorning and since the
presentation was that night, Ijust gave him three things to do
.
So two of them were about theway he was delivering the
material and one was a physicalgesture he was doing that was
sabotaging him and he didn'trealize it.
Gesture he was doing that wassabotaging him and he didn't
(03:28):
realize it.
And that night I got to watchhim walk out in front of a
packed room and be brilliant.
He was great, he did everythingright and the audience loved
him.
They jumped to their feet,standing ovation, all of that,
but the expression on his faceas he took in the applause made
(03:49):
me smile so hard my cheeks hurt.
This is why I do what I do.
And that client was LucianoPavarotti, singing the role of
Radames in Aida at theMetropolitan Opera.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Wow, so many presentations that I have
struggled through and it waskind of interesting, greg and I.
I gave a presentation and Iasked how did I do it, greg?
And it was really entertaining.
The best he could do was yeah,it needs work, man.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Well, let's talk, John.
Yeah, really.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Well, we are.
This is what.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
I do.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
This is your moment, so I want to make sure I'm doing
the best I can to present whatyou have done.
Tell me what was the physicalconstraint that he had in
presenting what was sabotaginghim physically?
Speaker 3 (04:45):
had in presenting what was sabotaging him
physically.
It was a very long story, but itwas all about he would turn
upstage when he wasn't singingand he'd put a cough drop in his
mouth and then, if you'rewatching this on YouTube, you'll
see he sat there listening withthis cough drop bulging out of
his mouth and then, when thesoprano was mouth, and then when
(05:05):
it was when the soprano wassinging, and then when it was
his turn to sing, he turnedupstage and sort of spat it out
onto his sleeve and he was usingRicolas which are black on a
gold sleeve.
So I went now and I found himsome yellow sucrets.
So I went out and I found himsome yellow sucrets.
So you know he was terrified ofrunning out of saliva, of his
(05:27):
mouth drying out, which is a bigdeal for opera singers.
So I went out and I got himsome yellow cough drops.
That, would, you know, keep hisvoice and mouth functioning the
way it should.
But it was a very odd.
It's just one of those very oddstories.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
No, no, it was.
It's actually intriguingbecause public speaking isn't
one of the easiest things thatI've done.
I have learned over time to doa better job of it, but you've
done a lot in terms ofdeveloping women and their
ability to speak.
Men have the same issues interms of speaking.
Practice obviously is the key,but understanding how important
words are in that connectionwith the audience and making
(06:15):
sure that your message is beingreceived maybe talking about
some of those high points on howyou've helped communicate that
process.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Well, I call myself a presentation skills trainer and
executive coach.
Mostly what I do, however, ispeople come to me women
especially and they say I'm sofrustrated, Can you get them to
listen to me?
And because I studied languagesearly, so I've lived and worked
(06:47):
internationally since I was 17years old and I'm fluent in five
different languages, so I'mused to working in multiple
languages.
I see it as a language thing.
So, really, what I do is I.
My motto, my mission, if youwill, is to get women's voices
(07:09):
heard in places of power, and alot of it comes from my history
in the opera business, which Ican tell you about later.
But because what happens isthat we get senior women, get up
to a certain point and thenthey get so frustrated because
they aren't being listened tothat they quit.
(07:32):
And this is a big deal, becauseI mean, not only is it
expensive for the person whogets, who finally has had enough
and walks away, but it'sexpensive for the organization
too, because you lose a seniorperson.
You lose minimum three monthsof work on whatever projects
(07:53):
they were working on, not tomention $50,000 plus for a
recruiter to hire somebody new,and maybe it takes you six
months to hire somebody new.
It's very expensive to lose yoursenior women, and statistics
show us over and over again thatorganizations that have diverse
(08:16):
voices in leadership makebetter profit.
You know, basically they have abetter return on investment.
Basically they have a betterreturn on investment, and when I
(08:38):
first started talking aboutthis, I worked very closely with
a group called how Women Lead.
That's one of the besttrainingsey report on women and
progress and so forth would saymaybe 20% better profits if you
have women on your board.
Now it's 35% higher profits ifyou have women and other diverse
(09:05):
voices on your board.
So what I'm all about ishelping men and women learn to
speak and speak to each otherand listen to each other so that
you can actually get the senior.
You know, the senior peopledon't get frustrated because
they aren't being listened to,and and then some of that comes
(09:29):
out of my earlier experiencewith glass ceilings.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
You also had some experience that I'd like to talk
about in helping an authorwrite a book.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
I basically help authors who have written a book
talk about it.
I do that a lot because writtenlanguage and spoken language
are different and when peopleoften don't recognize that.
You can see that if you've eversat through an incredibly
(10:01):
boring presentation wheresomebody puts a slide full of
data up on the wall and thenturns their back to the audience
and reads you the slide with,like you know, 200 words on it,
that's someone who doesn'tunderstand the difference
between written and and.
Okay, john, I see you're wavingit.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Yeah, yeah, that was me without it idea Boy.
Do I need a coach?
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Yeah, well it's.
You know there are reasons whypeople do that and there are
many reasons why people do that,but boy does it turn an
audience off.
I mean, we've all cringedthrough these kinds of things.
(10:45):
So that's one problem that Ihelp to solve.
And also, how you present, howyou speak, is as important as
the words you use.
So I work a lot with the melodyof the message and that I
(11:07):
learned from 30 years in theopera business, learning how to
shape the music, thinking abouttempo and pacing and the shape
of a show, the arc of a storyall of that.
I learned it in the operabusiness to be good at what I
was doing.
And then, when I startedworking with business
professionals, I discovered thatthe issues are pretty much the
(11:30):
same.
They aren't that different,it's just different vocabulary,
but pretty much it's the sameissue of how do you keep the
listeners entertained, and thatgoes for an audience who's
sitting in a theater or someonesitting in a conference room.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
And what I found interesting is I've given only a
few presentations and everytime I've done the presentation
it's changed because I'm gettingmore and more in tune to what
you're talking about.
I would have done a much betterjob if I was talking to you
first, but I understand you'realso working on a book to try to
(12:08):
capture some of these conceptsworking on a book to try to
capture some of these concepts.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
So I have a program called Visible and Valued, which
is presentation skills to helpwomen's voices be heard, and
it's a course, it's a mastermind, it's an ongoing mastermind,
and then the people in thecourse are helping me write the
book Awesome.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
So the book is in process.
Mastermind, help me understandthat concept.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
So the concept of a mastermind is when you meet once
or twice a month.
In my class it's twice a month.
You meet at breakfast.
I mean it's got to be themorning because you know so if
you've got to get kids off toschool I'm sorry, but if you
wait till evening, somethingalways comes up to derail it.
(13:00):
You know there's always someproblem.
So we have a working breakfastover Zoom and we work through
the various concepts of how youcan be heard, how you can not
sabotage yourself, what's reallygoing on, and then different
people weigh in with their ideasand I have a lot of things that
(13:27):
I've learned from people I'vetalked to.
But if you can get six or sevenpeople in a group and this is
why they do breakout rooms onZoom you get, you know, three or
four people in to discussissues.
And I'm a participant inseveral masterminds and you know
somebody will say that's theperfect thing that you hadn't
(13:49):
thought of because you're tooclose to it.
So that's part of the visibleand valued masterminds and it's
very satisfying.
We get a lot out of it.
And the other thing is,especially for women, it really
matters to have your cohort, tohave your group, your cohort to
(14:16):
have your group because womenwell, I don't know.
My grandmother always used tosay good girls, don't brag,
don't say too much, don't be tooloud, and the tendency is to
not volunteer to speak upbecause there are consequences
for not being perfect.
And so having the group aroundyou to say no, no, no, do that,
(14:39):
take that, say yes to thatspeaking gig, be on that panel.
Yes, this is something worth itFor women in particular because
women are relational thinkers,particular because women are
relational thinkers mostly.
It's very important to have thegroup behind you.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
I think a lot of men are supposed to be.
Well, let me step back for asecond.
I started off as an engineer,and engineers really don't speak
.
I'm considered an exception ofsomebody that likes to talk and
I have found trying to helppeople who are in the
engineering side do a better jobof presenting themselves.
(15:17):
I think some of the elements ofbeing able to bring in other
voices and I've actually had thepleasure and the opportunity to
bring more women into aengineering environment, a
facilities department, and it'sso entertaining to see them
moving up and just challengingthe other people in the room,
(15:40):
which are a whole bunch of guyssitting in a room, saying really
, you guys don't understand howdiversity works.
Well, there's a reason why youdon't understand is because you
haven't practiced it.
Until you actually make theeffort, and we started to see
some of the other managers, someof the other directors, making
that inroads to try to be moreinclusive and it does pay back
(16:05):
instantly.
There's a wonderful opportunityand those particular individuals
that are basically held behind,to see them accelerate.
There was moments in time whereI had to take them to decide,
saying yes, you are capable,you're competent, don't you know
that programming piece andtrying to stop the programming
piece, punch ahead.
This is your opportunity, thisis your moment to shine.
(16:28):
And doing that encouragement,I've had them come back to me
saying that no one's ever donethat.
You were the only one.
Yeah, but I've taken it andI've run with it.
That's real satisfaction.
So one of the sidelights of whyGreg and I wanted to do the
podcast was to continue that,because it is very satisfying
(16:48):
and it's very encouraging tohelp people.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
It's very important to have the right allies, and
especially if you're the onlywoman.
So as an opera director, I wasone of the few women.
I was one of the early women inAmerica and to the point where
the like the first 10 years orso of my directing career,
wherever city I was in, theywould always send out the local
(17:14):
arts reporter and invariably Iwould say so.
How is it different with the?
How is the story of Carmendifferent when you see it from a
woman's point of view?
You know, is it different?
And sometimes I would say yesand sometimes I would say no.
You know Carmen.
You know Carmen fundamentallyis like a Law Order episode.
(17:36):
It's a girl meets boy, theyhave a fling, she moves on and
he stalks her and he kills her.
So it's the Law Order withoutthe cops.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Basically, I've never heard it explained that way.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
No, Okay, yeah, universal way no, Okay yeah.
Universal stories yeah, sure.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
No, that's awesome and I think, when we are looking
at things in terms of how wewrite and how we find that
motivation, when you're lookingat the different things that
you've done and and maybe youcan talk about all the breadth
of the different things thatyou've done and maybe you can
talk about all the breadth ofthe different things that you
have supported, the differentelements of the business that
(18:19):
you- do.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
It's fascinating the reach that you have, move
full-time into presentationskills.
I knew a lot about how do youshow up, how do you show up in
front of a group, and also Ifounded and ran an opera company
for 11 years, so I knew thebusiness side of it.
(18:51):
I mean it's not as if I'mworking for Johnson and Johnson
or or GE or IBM you know Googlemaybe, but I certainly know the
basics of the business.
So, putting all of thattogether, I also could see where
I made so many mistakes.
And you know, if I people sayyou know what, what would you do
(19:13):
over?
And I think I wish I had knownthe me of now back 25 years ago,
because basically the glassceiling that happened to me was
I worked my way up from actingto directing in theater to then
(19:34):
directing in opera, and so cameto it from the theater side
rather than the music side,because I love to listen to it,
I love languages, I love operahas music, theater, languages
and travel, and glorious whenit's glorious, there's nothing
like it.
So I loved that, doing all ofthat and really moving an
(20:00):
audience to tears or moving themto laughter, which is much
harder and I wanted to run anopera company.
I knew I could do more and so Idecided I applied.
The next time there was anopening, I applied to run an
opera company and they loved me.
They brought me in for the youknow on the short list, flew me
(20:23):
in and the job went to a man andthen the next time around it
happened again, and it happenedover and over again for about
three years.
These positions open three orfour times a year and for about
three years I was always on theshort list and my colleagues all
said, wow, you know, any operacompany you run, I'm going to
(20:46):
come Absolutely, you'd be great.
Come Absolutely, You'd be great.
What I didn't understand at thetime was that I was being
beloved by your colleagues isnot the same as being recognized
by the people who do the hiring, and it also never occurred to
(21:07):
me to ask for help to apply.
I could have asked someone toteach me how to apply for a job
like this.
I didn't realize that waspossible.
That's certainly something thatcorporations are much better at
now helping people learn how toapply and that's why I do
career development, because Iwas marketing myself to the
(21:31):
wrong people and I didn't figurethat out until I started doing
the work, the training as acoach and the work I'm doing now
.
So that was my glass ceilingand ultimately I founded an
opera company, because no onewould give me a company to run.
So I made one, but it was in.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Austria.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
So it was an Austrian-American joint project
focusing mostly on trainingyoung singers, and we ran for 11
years until I burned out and Ithought okay, I've been doing
the same thing for 30 years.
Time to do something, time towalk away, while I still love
the music.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
So it sounds like you were a wonderful mentor for
people.
Did you have a mentor?
Or did you find, after all thisexperience, that you did a
better job, that hindsight ofbeing able to pull other people
forward, that you found the roleof mentor as part of that
process?
Speaker 3 (22:40):
I had some mentors.
One of the myths that theyteach girls that little girls
are socialized is don't askdirectly, Don't ask for help,
and so I could have gotten muchmore help if I had dared to
(23:03):
reach out and be vulnerable andask.
And I didn't know to ask.
I didn't know to ask andbecause of all the way we're
socialized as children, I don'tthink anybody does it on purpose
.
I think society does it?
I think, history andsocialization.
(23:24):
So now what I do is I act as amentor to people.
Hopefully they just won't makethe same mistakes I did.
It took me a long time toevolve.
Where I am now, with StrategicSpeaking for Results, feels like
the culmination of all thethings I've done over the years.
(23:45):
That all fits together and Ican use the opera experience and
the business experience andthen what I know about the way
people communicate and that's itall comes together in this um
doing this work and it'sincredibly satisfying when I see
um my client Janet, forinstance.
(24:09):
She was an IT person, so asoftware engineer and IT
specialist, and she worked for avery well, very prestigious
research firm and she was alwayssolving problems.
She always solved problems andthey would say great thanks next
.
And so she was talking to afriend who was frustrated.
(24:33):
She said I'm getting norecognition.
I've been stuck at seniordirector for 13 years.
I can't get any further.
And the friend said talk toElizabeth.
And so we worked together andthe next time they had a problem
they wanted her to solve whichwas company-wide I mean it
(24:54):
affected the whole organizationwe had her go to each person in
the C-suite individually andpitch her idea by saying this is
my strategic thinking on how tosolve this problem.
And then for each person sheknew something that they cared
about and said and will you helpme with this piece, will you?
(25:22):
Or this is to the CFO.
She said here's how this isgoing to save us so much money.
Or the guy who'd been with theengineers forever and ever, she
said I'm going to have to getthe engineers to help this, and
you know them so much betterthan I do.
You know, will you do that?
And they were so excited thatat the next executive committee
meeting they created a vicepresident position for her.
(25:45):
Wow After 13 years of beingstuck and it's because of that,
and that just took us like three, four months of work and
changed everything, and actuallysix months later they made her
the CIO.
So it works.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Well, I mean, some of the suggestions that I had
heard for my career is that ifthey don't have the, the
particular career or advancementcreated, well, that that.
That was the first time I'veheard somebody actually talk
about the process of creatingthat opportunity.
(26:23):
That's outstanding.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
It's how this is.
This is where you change howyou're perceived, by changing
the way you communicate.
Right, basically.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
I think you're a great coach, but who do you
think of in terms of motivatingor or a person that gives you an
example of motivation?
I have motivation phrases thatI don't think I want to bring up
because I've, like I have.
One of mine is from John Wayne,not exactly a kind of
motivating coach.
(26:56):
That's in the business world.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
Whatever works for you, you know.
Whatever works for you, I haveexactly a kind of motivating
coach.
That's in the business world.
Whatever works for you, youknow.
Whatever works for you, I have.
There are a lot of people Ifollow and I there are quite a
few people I follow on LinkedIn.
As I said, I work closely witha group called how Women Lead,
which is national and beginningto expand internationally and
(27:20):
that's run by a wonderful womannamed Julie Castro Abrams and
it's very much about women'sempowerment, many different ways
of empowering women, and thereare many people that I follow.
You know, as much as I can.
The thing I haven't heardanybody else say and the thing
(27:42):
that really matters, that thatI've talked about a lot, is why
men think women.
So women think men don't listento them and men think women go
on and on and on, think women goon and on and on and they never
get to the point.
And both are true and it's notthat simple.
(28:10):
What I've noticed in my yearsof thinking about different
languages, looking at differentlanguages, is that I think it
comes down to we're using thesame words.
It comes down to we're usingthe same words but we're
speaking two different languagesand historically it's been
men's language and women'slanguage.
That's the cliche, because forcenturies, up until about 40
(28:33):
years ago, women never took anequal place in business, in the
business world or in thepolitical world.
It really hasn't been that long, if you consider the centuries
of civilization.
I mean, I was a theater student.
There are plays from the 16thcentury about why men don't
(28:55):
listen to women.
So you know it's been going onfor a long time.
What I see now, though, is thatwomen get frustrated because
men aren't listening, and that'sa gross generalization.
It's not nearly that binary.
(29:15):
There's a whole range.
I prefer to think of it assingle-focused thinkers and
multi-focused thinkers.
So the single-focused thinkersare historically men,
traditionally men, but notalways.
More and more women aresingle-focused, and they're the
people who do one thing at atime, task-oriented, get it done
(29:38):
.
They don't care about thedetails much, they just want to
get it done, and they do onething at a time, and the
advantage of that is you'vefinished the project.
The disadvantage is that canlead to tunnel vision.
So on the other side, you'vegot the multi-focus thinkers,
(29:59):
who are traditionally women,historically women, but not
always.
More and more men actually areadmitting to being multifocus,
used to be not okay, so menwouldn't say that, and again,
it's not really gender-based.
It's more society-based, Ithink.
(30:19):
But the multifocus thinkers arethe relational thinkers, so
they're the people who can keepfive things going in their head
at once, and they're the oneswho are going to notice a side
issue that might derail theproject that our friends at the
Tunnel Vision aren't noticing.
You really need both.
(30:42):
You need to have both to worktogether to make a suggestion.
What gets in the way isresentment, and you can find men
who you know the cliche is ah,women.
You know, talk, talk, talk,talk, talk.
You know from the musical, themusical and the music band.
You know, pick a little, talk alittle, pick a little up things
(31:04):
like that, making fun of it,where actually the women are
weaving a web of relationships.
When they talk that way, andfor the people who are
relational thinkers, it'scontext is everything and
details are everything.
So to them stories don't makesense unless you start it 20
(31:26):
years ago and then work your wayup.
But, the single focus.
Thinkers don't care, they justwant to know what am I supposed
to do?
Am I supposed to fix this ornot?
When the two sides thinkthey're communicating but not,
that's where the resentmentcomes in.
And it's as if men spokeSpanish and women spoke Italian.
(31:50):
And if you're speaking Italianto a Spaniard, they're going to
understand more or less what youhave to say.
They're going to understandmore or less what you have to
say, but really you're going toknow that you're speaking a
different language and allow forthat.
And what I like about that isthat it means it's not people
are being obnoxious or bad toeach other, it's just a
(32:16):
translation issue.
And if you think of it as atranslation issue, anytime
you're speaking to get a resultthat's why my company name is
Strategic Speaking for Resultsanytime you need to convince
somebody, that's marketing.
That's marketing your idea.
That's marketing your idea.
(32:37):
And the first lesson ismarketing is speak to the
customer in a language they canunderstand.
So I don't think of it asbetraying who you are.
I think of it as saying whatyou want to say in a language
they can hear.
And then there are tools andtools and tools and lots of ways
(33:02):
that you do that, but that'sthe fundamental concept and then
how exactly you go about it.
That's what we do in theVisible and Valued Masterminds.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
I think your comment about having a rhythm of speech
and how a presentation isactually performed, which is
words I haven't used before, butit makes so much sense.
Greg, I've kind of monopolizedour conversation a little bit.
Do you have anything that youwould like to ask, elizabeth?
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Just one quick thing Elizabeth says I mentioned
before I spend a lot of time inhuman resources and senior HR
roles different companies overmany years and one of the things
that I saw a lot of wasToastmasters and executive
coaching and executivepresentation skills very
valuable.
So thanks for doing that workand keep it rolling.
And I also saw that there werea couple of things that were a
little disheartening.
(33:53):
One was sometimes we used tocall the sisterhood wasn't
always there.
Not every woman was supportingevery woman.
Right and not much to say exceptthat was divisive.
But I thought it was veryhelpful when the senior men
would be advocates and theywould say hey, janie had a point
there.
I think she got cut off.
Janie, what was your point?
(34:14):
And actually, in a meeting,open up the gateway, the doorway
to let a person who was veryqualified and very talented let
her voice be heard.
So I guess I'm a pitch forcontinuing to have other folks
be part of the process.
Speaker 3 (34:26):
Well, a large part of what I do now is not just with
women.
But so if you think of singlefocus and multifocused and John,
engineers are kind of acategory of their own in between
.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
I know.
Speaker 3 (34:40):
In their own category , but I work a lot with
scientists and engineers to helpthem humanize their stories.
If you bit, the thing is thatif you're aware that the other
person isn't hearing you andit's not because they hate you,
it's because you're not speakingtheir language, then you can
(35:02):
adapt and you can also teach thesingle focus thing.
So the easy one to think of isif you are single focused and
you have people on your team whotell long, rambling stories, if
you know the relationalthinkers, they need to be
acknowledged because they seethe world in relationships.
(35:25):
So it's okay to say I careabout you, I want to know what
you have to say, I believe inyour information and I just
don't have time for it right now.
Let's make an appointment andthen I can give you my full
attention and you can tell methe whole thing.
And the relational thinkerneeds to know that.
(35:48):
The single focus thinker cannotunderstand If you're gonna tell
a long, rambling story.
They're not gonna be able tofollow because they only have
one thought in their head at atime.
It doesn't only do one thing ata time.
So simplify it, you know, tellthem in a language they can
understand, which is actuallymarketing 101.
(36:11):
It's just never I haven't heardanybody else but me apply it to
the conversation within anorganization.
And then allies are the crucialpiece of it.
If they're not listening to you, who are they listening to?
And the reason why we listen tomen more often than to women is
(36:33):
because of centuries ofsocialization We've been trained
to.
You know, society has trainedus to listen to men more than to
women, and that is changing,that's adapting.
So those divisions aredissolving little by little.
At this point I think 20 yearsfrom now it's going to be
(36:55):
different.
By the time my great niecegrows up and has her kids,
she'll be dealing with adifferent issue.
It won't be this one.
I think this is slowly goingaway.
For the single focus thinkers torecognize that there's well,
(37:16):
actually just say you know.
There's well, actually just sayyou know.
Men, if you would say you knowyour standard white men of with
some authority have an easierpath.
There's a wonderful book calledGood Guys by David Smith and
(37:44):
Brad Johnson.
That is for men, to help menbecome better allies and to
learn to notice.
And what you have to do firstis awareness, is to notice
what's happening, and then younotice it, and then the more you
notice, then you can dosomething about it.
And that's a little bit ofawareness training on both sides
.
I mean cliches on both sides.
Women have their own clichesand their own ways of just
dismissing a situation, becauseit's easier to do that than it
(38:09):
is to actually take it apart andfix it.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
I think, Greg and I both have daughters that we both
admire and are leaders in theirown rights.
My daughter is into teachingand she made a wonderful
statement.
I made a typical engineer'sobservation.
She stopped me, she went.
This is a career, this is acalling.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
This isn't a job.
What do you say at that point?
Speaker 2 (38:42):
It's like you know, nevermind Scratch everything.
I just said.
My work is done.
My work is done.
That's a perfect answer.
You clearly got it from yourmom because I wasn't bright
enough to come up with that one.
But yeah, it is something whereI have found myself in a
position of championing thatvoice for a woman to be heard,
(39:07):
to champion other people thataren't being listened to.
And a part of that is alsobeing an engineer, and I think
I'm the exception, becauseusually they don't listen very
well.
They like to do the talking,they don't like to do the
listening.
So that's the other challengeof some of my peers that I had
(39:29):
to basically change them at thesame time if I was going to get
across an idea.
Speaker 3 (39:33):
That's habit.
That's habit that is that we'reso used to, that's habit, that
is that we're so used to, wetake it for granted and we don't
actually recognize that this issomething that can be changed.
But if you think of it just asa habit, then most of the time
it's habitual.
It's not intentional.
(39:54):
I mean, yes, there are the oneswho are out to get you there
Most exist too yes, but most,95% of the time, it's
unintentional.
I mean yes, there are the oneswho are out to get you there.
Most exist too, but most, 95%of the time, it's unintentional.
And so if you can make someone,the first step to changing a
habit is to become aware of it,and you know, no matter who you
(40:17):
are.
And so that's recognizing that,that's the first step is
awareness, action, allies it'sone of the ways.
Awareness, adaptation andallies are three ways to think
about it.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
That's awesome, elizabeth.
We could talk for hours on end,but we do have a little bit of
a time limit.
I so much want to talk to youfurther and and I got a feeling
we will I could use somecoaching.
There was an interesting thingof how to get speaking gigs.
It's like, okay, putting theeffort is the is kind of like
(40:53):
the bottom line of what you weretalking about and there's a
path to that.
But as we close, is thereanything that you would like to
talk about the contactinformation or a little bit more
about your book, because I findit intriguing?
Is there anything that youwould like to add as as we close
up our our time?
Speaker 3 (41:11):
well, the book's not ready for publication yet.
I've got I've got some workstill to do, so I have to make
sure I I finished that, buttalking to you is going to make
me go blow the dust off it ifyou will Follow me on LinkedIn.
I'm very active on LinkedIn andthat's where I have my most
recent ideas.
(41:32):
I have a website atElizabethBachmancom, but,
frankly, linkedin is a littlebit more up to date, so I don't
always do what I recommend, butI don't always take my own
advice.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
Well, that's pretty much a wrap.
My book is available onamazoncom and Barnes Noble
Building your Leadership Toolbox.
The podcast is what you'relistening to.
Thank you, that's awesome.
It's also available in otherpopular formats like Spotify and
Apple.
The way to contact us I have awebsite, authorjawcom.
(42:12):
You can get a hold of methrough.
Get a hold of Greg and Ithrough that format.
Music is brought to you by mygrandson and it's been a real
opportunity to share some greatideas.
Elizabeth has a wealth ofknowledge.
Look her up on LinkedIn.
It would be a great investmentof your time.
(42:32):
So, greg, thanks, man, thanks.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
John, as always.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
Next time yeah.
Well, welcome to Success Secrets and Stories.
My name is John Winovsky andI'm the host, and I'm here with
my co-host and friend, gregPowell.
Greg, hey, everybody, yeah, andtoday we're going to speak
about presentation andpresentation skills, and I think
we're going to have some funwith this subject.
I'd like to introduce ElizabethBachman, the go-to person for
(00:37):
advanced level training inspeaking presentation skills,
career development andleadership.
With a lifetime spentperfecting the art of
presentations, she helpshigh-level clients get the
promotion, the job, therecognition they deserve Within
an organization and within theindustry.
Change is the way that you areperceived by changing the way
(01:00):
that you communicate.
Strategic speaking for resultswhen you want to make a
difference, not just the point.
Welcome, elizabeth.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Thank you, John and Greg.
I'm delighted to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
So a little bit of your background.
That was truly intriguing isthat not only have you helped
people in terms of theirpresentation skills in the
industry world, in the CEO world, in the business world, but you
also have started 30 differentoperas, if I'm correct.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
I directed 30 different operas.
Far more important to direct Iwas an international opera
director, and I did that for 30years around the world,
directing people such well.
The names you would have heardwould be Luciano Pavarotti,
placido Domingo and hundreds andhundreds of others.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
One moment where you had a call late at night and in
24 hours an individual was goingto give a presentation and
maybe talking about how thatpresentation to an expert and a
coach was so important that theperson who called you called you
(02:19):
at three o'clock in the morning.
Maybe you could talk about thatone.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Yeah Well, this was a very well-known client of mine
and he was really nervous.
He had a big presentation togive and he was thinking can I
still do it?
Will they still like me?
And I said, well, let'spractice, that's what I'm for.
And he said, oh, no, no, I'mtoo busy, I'm just going to wing
it.
(02:44):
And you know, I couldn't forcehim to practice and he worried
and he waited, and he waited andhe worried until finally, the
night before the presentationwas due, he called me up at 3
o'clock in the morning Becauseyou know he couldn't sleep, so
why should I?
He was that kind of guy.
(03:05):
But anyway, we met the nextmorning and since the
presentation was that night, Ijust gave him three things to do
.
So two of them were about theway he was delivering the
material and one was a physicalgesture he was doing that was
sabotaging him and he didn'trealize it.
Gesture he was doing that wassabotaging him and he didn't
(03:28):
realize it.
And that night I got to watchhim walk out in front of a
packed room and be brilliant.
He was great, he did everythingright and the audience loved
him.
They jumped to their feet,standing ovation, all of that,
but the expression on his faceas he took in the applause made
(03:49):
me smile so hard my cheeks hurt.
This is why I do what I do.
And that client was LucianoPavarotti, singing the role of
Radames in Aida at theMetropolitan Opera.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Wow, so many presentations that I have
struggled through and it waskind of interesting, greg and I.
I gave a presentation and Iasked how did I do it, greg?
And it was really entertaining.
The best he could do was yeah,it needs work, man.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Well, let's talk, John.
Yeah, really.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Well, we are.
This is what.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
I do.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
This is your moment, so I want to make sure I'm doing
the best I can to present whatyou have done.
Tell me what was the physicalconstraint that he had in
presenting what was sabotaginghim physically?
Speaker 3 (04:45):
had in presenting what was sabotaging him
physically.
It was a very long story, but itwas all about he would turn
upstage when he wasn't singingand he'd put a cough drop in his
mouth and then, if you'rewatching this on YouTube, you'll
see he sat there listening withthis cough drop bulging out of
his mouth and then, when thesoprano was mouth, and then when
(05:05):
it was when the soprano wassinging, and then when it was
his turn to sing, he turnedupstage and sort of spat it out
onto his sleeve and he was usingRicolas which are black on a
gold sleeve.
So I went now and I found himsome yellow sucrets.
So I went out and I found himsome yellow sucrets.
So you know he was terrified ofrunning out of saliva, of his
(05:27):
mouth drying out, which is a bigdeal for opera singers.
So I went out and I got himsome yellow cough drops.
That, would, you know, keep hisvoice and mouth functioning the
way it should.
But it was a very odd.
It's just one of those very oddstories.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
No, no, it was.
It's actually intriguingbecause public speaking isn't
one of the easiest things thatI've done.
I have learned over time to doa better job of it, but you've
done a lot in terms ofdeveloping women and their
ability to speak.
Men have the same issues interms of speaking.
Practice obviously is the key,but understanding how important
words are in that connectionwith the audience and making
(06:15):
sure that your message is beingreceived maybe talking about
some of those high points on howyou've helped communicate that
process.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Well, I call myself a presentation skills trainer and
executive coach.
Mostly what I do, however, ispeople come to me women
especially and they say I'm sofrustrated, Can you get them to
listen to me?
And because I studied languagesearly, so I've lived and worked
(06:47):
internationally since I was 17years old and I'm fluent in five
different languages, so I'mused to working in multiple
languages.
I see it as a language thing.
So, really, what I do is I.
My motto, my mission, if youwill, is to get women's voices
(07:09):
heard in places of power, and alot of it comes from my history
in the opera business, which Ican tell you about later.
But because what happens isthat we get senior women, get up
to a certain point and thenthey get so frustrated because
they aren't being listened tothat they quit.
(07:32):
And this is a big deal, becauseI mean, not only is it
expensive for the person whogets, who finally has had enough
and walks away, but it'sexpensive for the organization
too, because you lose a seniorperson.
You lose minimum three monthsof work on whatever projects
(07:53):
they were working on, not tomention $50,000 plus for a
recruiter to hire somebody new,and maybe it takes you six
months to hire somebody new.
It's very expensive to lose yoursenior women, and statistics
show us over and over again thatorganizations that have diverse
(08:16):
voices in leadership makebetter profit.
You know, basically they have abetter return on investment.
Basically they have a betterreturn on investment, and when I
(08:38):
first started talking aboutthis, I worked very closely with
a group called how Women Lead.
That's one of the besttrainingsey report on women and
progress and so forth would saymaybe 20% better profits if you
have women on your board.
Now it's 35% higher profits ifyou have women and other diverse
(09:05):
voices on your board.
So what I'm all about ishelping men and women learn to
speak and speak to each otherand listen to each other so that
you can actually get the senior.
You know, the senior peopledon't get frustrated because
they aren't being listened to,and and then some of that comes
(09:29):
out of my earlier experiencewith glass ceilings.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
You also had some experience that I'd like to talk
about in helping an authorwrite a book.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
I basically help authors who have written a book
talk about it.
I do that a lot because writtenlanguage and spoken language
are different and when peopleoften don't recognize that.
You can see that if you've eversat through an incredibly
(10:01):
boring presentation wheresomebody puts a slide full of
data up on the wall and thenturns their back to the audience
and reads you the slide with,like you know, 200 words on it,
that's someone who doesn'tunderstand the difference
between written and and.
Okay, john, I see you're wavingit.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Yeah, yeah, that was me without it idea Boy.
Do I need a coach?
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Yeah, well it's.
You know there are reasons whypeople do that and there are
many reasons why people do that,but boy does it turn an
audience off.
I mean, we've all cringedthrough these kinds of things.
(10:45):
So that's one problem that Ihelp to solve.
And also, how you present, howyou speak, is as important as
the words you use.
So I work a lot with the melodyof the message and that I
(11:07):
learned from 30 years in theopera business, learning how to
shape the music, thinking abouttempo and pacing and the shape
of a show, the arc of a storyall of that.
I learned it in the operabusiness to be good at what I
was doing.
And then, when I startedworking with business
professionals, I discovered thatthe issues are pretty much the
(11:30):
same.
They aren't that different,it's just different vocabulary,
but pretty much it's the sameissue of how do you keep the
listeners entertained, and thatgoes for an audience who's
sitting in a theater or someonesitting in a conference room.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
And what I found interesting is I've given only a
few presentations and everytime I've done the presentation
it's changed because I'm gettingmore and more in tune to what
you're talking about.
I would have done a much betterjob if I was talking to you
first, but I understand you'realso working on a book to try to
(12:08):
capture some of these conceptsworking on a book to try to
capture some of these concepts.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
So I have a program called Visible and Valued, which
is presentation skills to helpwomen's voices be heard, and
it's a course, it's a mastermind, it's an ongoing mastermind,
and then the people in thecourse are helping me write the
book Awesome.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
So the book is in process.
Mastermind, help me understandthat concept.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
So the concept of a mastermind is when you meet once
or twice a month.
In my class it's twice a month.
You meet at breakfast.
I mean it's got to be themorning because you know so if
you've got to get kids off toschool I'm sorry, but if you
wait till evening, somethingalways comes up to derail it.
(13:00):
You know there's always someproblem.
So we have a working breakfastover Zoom and we work through
the various concepts of how youcan be heard, how you can not
sabotage yourself, what's reallygoing on, and then different
people weigh in with their ideasand I have a lot of things that
(13:27):
I've learned from people I'vetalked to.
But if you can get six or sevenpeople in a group and this is
why they do breakout rooms onZoom you get, you know, three or
four people in to discussissues.
And I'm a participant inseveral masterminds and you know
somebody will say that's theperfect thing that you hadn't
(13:49):
thought of because you're tooclose to it.
So that's part of the visibleand valued masterminds and it's
very satisfying.
We get a lot out of it.
And the other thing is,especially for women, it really
matters to have your cohort, tohave your group, your cohort to
(14:16):
have your group because womenwell, I don't know.
My grandmother always used tosay good girls, don't brag,
don't say too much, don't be tooloud, and the tendency is to
not volunteer to speak upbecause there are consequences
for not being perfect.
And so having the group aroundyou to say no, no, no, do that,
(14:39):
take that, say yes to thatspeaking gig, be on that panel.
Yes, this is something worth itFor women in particular because
women are relational thinkers,particular because women are
relational thinkers mostly.
It's very important to have thegroup behind you.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
I think a lot of men are supposed to be.
Well, let me step back for asecond.
I started off as an engineer,and engineers really don't speak
.
I'm considered an exception ofsomebody that likes to talk and
I have found trying to helppeople who are in the
engineering side do a better jobof presenting themselves.
(15:17):
I think some of the elements ofbeing able to bring in other
voices and I've actually had thepleasure and the opportunity to
bring more women into aengineering environment, a
facilities department, and it'sso entertaining to see them
moving up and just challengingthe other people in the room,
(15:40):
which are a whole bunch of guyssitting in a room, saying really
, you guys don't understand howdiversity works.
Well, there's a reason why youdon't understand is because you
haven't practiced it.
Until you actually make theeffort, and we started to see
some of the other managers, someof the other directors, making
that inroads to try to be moreinclusive and it does pay back
(16:05):
instantly.
There's a wonderful opportunityand those particular individuals
that are basically held behind,to see them accelerate.
There was moments in time whereI had to take them to decide,
saying yes, you are capable,you're competent, don't you know
that programming piece andtrying to stop the programming
piece, punch ahead.
This is your opportunity, thisis your moment to shine.
(16:28):
And doing that encouragement,I've had them come back to me
saying that no one's ever donethat.
You were the only one.
Yeah, but I've taken it andI've run with it.
That's real satisfaction.
So one of the sidelights of whyGreg and I wanted to do the
podcast was to continue that,because it is very satisfying
(16:48):
and it's very encouraging tohelp people.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
It's very important to have the right allies, and
especially if you're the onlywoman.
So as an opera director, I wasone of the few women.
I was one of the early women inAmerica and to the point where
the like the first 10 years orso of my directing career,
wherever city I was in, theywould always send out the local
(17:14):
arts reporter and invariably Iwould say so.
How is it different with the?
How is the story of Carmendifferent when you see it from a
woman's point of view?
You know, is it different?
And sometimes I would say yesand sometimes I would say no.
You know Carmen.
You know Carmen fundamentallyis like a Law Order episode.
(17:36):
It's a girl meets boy, theyhave a fling, she moves on and
he stalks her and he kills her.
So it's the Law Order withoutthe cops.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Basically, I've never heard it explained that way.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
No, Okay, yeah, universal way no, Okay yeah.
Universal stories yeah, sure.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
No, that's awesome and I think, when we are looking
at things in terms of how wewrite and how we find that
motivation, when you're lookingat the different things that
you've done and and maybe youcan talk about all the breadth
of the different things thatyou've done and maybe you can
talk about all the breadth ofthe different things that you
have supported, the differentelements of the business that
(18:19):
you- do.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
It's fascinating the reach that you have, move
full-time into presentationskills.
I knew a lot about how do youshow up, how do you show up in
front of a group, and also Ifounded and ran an opera company
for 11 years, so I knew thebusiness side of it.
(18:51):
I mean it's not as if I'mworking for Johnson and Johnson
or or GE or IBM you know Googlemaybe, but I certainly know the
basics of the business.
So, putting all of thattogether, I also could see where
I made so many mistakes.
And you know, if I people sayyou know what, what would you do
(19:13):
over?
And I think I wish I had knownthe me of now back 25 years ago,
because basically the glassceiling that happened to me was
I worked my way up from actingto directing in theater to then
(19:34):
directing in opera, and so cameto it from the theater side
rather than the music side,because I love to listen to it,
I love languages, I love operahas music, theater, languages
and travel, and glorious whenit's glorious, there's nothing
like it.
So I loved that, doing all ofthat and really moving an
(20:00):
audience to tears or moving themto laughter, which is much
harder and I wanted to run anopera company.
I knew I could do more and so Idecided I applied.
The next time there was anopening, I applied to run an
opera company and they loved me.
They brought me in for the youknow on the short list, flew me
(20:23):
in and the job went to a man andthen the next time around it
happened again, and it happenedover and over again for about
three years.
These positions open three orfour times a year and for about
three years I was always on theshort list and my colleagues all
said, wow, you know, any operacompany you run, I'm going to
(20:46):
come Absolutely, you'd be great.
Come Absolutely, You'd be great.
What I didn't understand at thetime was that I was being
beloved by your colleagues isnot the same as being recognized
by the people who do the hiring, and it also never occurred to
(21:07):
me to ask for help to apply.
I could have asked someone toteach me how to apply for a job
like this.
I didn't realize that waspossible.
That's certainly something thatcorporations are much better at
now helping people learn how toapply and that's why I do
career development, because Iwas marketing myself to the
(21:31):
wrong people and I didn't figurethat out until I started doing
the work, the training as acoach and the work I'm doing now
.
So that was my glass ceilingand ultimately I founded an
opera company, because no onewould give me a company to run.
So I made one, but it was in.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Austria.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
So it was an Austrian-American joint project
focusing mostly on trainingyoung singers, and we ran for 11
years until I burned out and Ithought okay, I've been doing
the same thing for 30 years.
Time to do something, time towalk away, while I still love
the music.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
So it sounds like you were a wonderful mentor for
people.
Did you have a mentor?
Or did you find, after all thisexperience, that you did a
better job, that hindsight ofbeing able to pull other people
forward, that you found the roleof mentor as part of that
process?
Speaker 3 (22:40):
I had some mentors.
One of the myths that theyteach girls that little girls
are socialized is don't askdirectly, Don't ask for help,
and so I could have gotten muchmore help if I had dared to
(23:03):
reach out and be vulnerable andask.
And I didn't know to ask.
I didn't know to ask andbecause of all the way we're
socialized as children, I don'tthink anybody does it on purpose
.
I think society does it?
I think, history andsocialization.
(23:24):
So now what I do is I act as amentor to people.
Hopefully they just won't makethe same mistakes I did.
It took me a long time toevolve.
Where I am now, with StrategicSpeaking for Results, feels like
the culmination of all thethings I've done over the years.
(23:45):
That all fits together and Ican use the opera experience and
the business experience andthen what I know about the way
people communicate and that's itall comes together in this um
doing this work and it'sincredibly satisfying when I see
um my client Janet, forinstance.
(24:09):
She was an IT person, so asoftware engineer and IT
specialist, and she worked for avery well, very prestigious
research firm and she was alwayssolving problems.
She always solved problems andthey would say great thanks next
.
And so she was talking to afriend who was frustrated.
(24:33):
She said I'm getting norecognition.
I've been stuck at seniordirector for 13 years.
I can't get any further.
And the friend said talk toElizabeth.
And so we worked together andthe next time they had a problem
they wanted her to solve whichwas company-wide I mean it
(24:54):
affected the whole organizationwe had her go to each person in
the C-suite individually andpitch her idea by saying this is
my strategic thinking on how tosolve this problem.
And then for each person sheknew something that they cared
about and said and will you helpme with this piece, will you?
(25:22):
Or this is to the CFO.
She said here's how this isgoing to save us so much money.
Or the guy who'd been with theengineers forever and ever, she
said I'm going to have to getthe engineers to help this, and
you know them so much betterthan I do.
You know, will you do that?
And they were so excited thatat the next executive committee
meeting they created a vicepresident position for her.
(25:45):
Wow After 13 years of beingstuck and it's because of that,
and that just took us like three, four months of work and
changed everything, and actuallysix months later they made her
the CIO.
So it works.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Well, I mean, some of the suggestions that I had
heard for my career is that ifthey don't have the, the
particular career or advancementcreated, well, that that.
That was the first time I'veheard somebody actually talk
about the process of creatingthat opportunity.
(26:23):
That's outstanding.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
It's how this is.
This is where you change howyou're perceived, by changing
the way you communicate.
Right, basically.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
I think you're a great coach, but who do you
think of in terms of motivatingor or a person that gives you an
example of motivation?
I have motivation phrases thatI don't think I want to bring up
because I've, like I have.
One of mine is from John Wayne,not exactly a kind of
motivating coach.
(26:56):
That's in the business world.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
Whatever works for you, you know.
Whatever works for you, I haveexactly a kind of motivating
coach.
That's in the business world.
Whatever works for you, youknow.
Whatever works for you, I have.
There are a lot of people Ifollow and I there are quite a
few people I follow on LinkedIn.
As I said, I work closely witha group called how Women Lead,
which is national and beginningto expand internationally and
(27:20):
that's run by a wonderful womannamed Julie Castro Abrams and
it's very much about women'sempowerment, many different ways
of empowering women, and thereare many people that I follow.
You know, as much as I can.
The thing I haven't heardanybody else say and the thing
(27:42):
that really matters, that thatI've talked about a lot, is why
men think women.
So women think men don't listento them and men think women go
on and on and on, think women goon and on and on and they never
get to the point.
And both are true and it's notthat simple.
(28:10):
What I've noticed in my yearsof thinking about different
languages, looking at differentlanguages, is that I think it
comes down to we're using thesame words.
It comes down to we're usingthe same words but we're
speaking two different languagesand historically it's been
men's language and women'slanguage.
That's the cliche, because forcenturies, up until about 40
(28:33):
years ago, women never took anequal place in business, in the
business world or in thepolitical world.
It really hasn't been that long, if you consider the centuries
of civilization.
I mean, I was a theater student.
There are plays from the 16thcentury about why men don't
(28:55):
listen to women.
So you know it's been going onfor a long time.
What I see now, though, is thatwomen get frustrated because
men aren't listening, and that'sa gross generalization.
It's not nearly that binary.
(29:15):
There's a whole range.
I prefer to think of it assingle-focused thinkers and
multi-focused thinkers.
So the single-focused thinkersare historically men,
traditionally men, but notalways.
More and more women aresingle-focused, and they're the
people who do one thing at atime, task-oriented, get it done
(29:38):
.
They don't care about thedetails much, they just want to
get it done, and they do onething at a time, and the
advantage of that is you'vefinished the project.
The disadvantage is that canlead to tunnel vision.
So on the other side, you'vegot the multi-focus thinkers,
(29:59):
who are traditionally women,historically women, but not
always.
More and more men actually areadmitting to being multifocus,
used to be not okay, so menwouldn't say that, and again,
it's not really gender-based.
It's more society-based, Ithink.
(30:19):
But the multifocus thinkers arethe relational thinkers, so
they're the people who can keepfive things going in their head
at once, and they're the oneswho are going to notice a side
issue that might derail theproject that our friends at the
Tunnel Vision aren't noticing.
You really need both.
(30:42):
You need to have both to worktogether to make a suggestion.
What gets in the way isresentment, and you can find men
who you know the cliche is ah,women.
You know, talk, talk, talk,talk, talk.
You know from the musical, themusical and the music band.
You know, pick a little, talk alittle, pick a little up things
(31:04):
like that, making fun of it,where actually the women are
weaving a web of relationships.
When they talk that way, andfor the people who are
relational thinkers, it'scontext is everything and
details are everything.
So to them stories don't makesense unless you start it 20
(31:26):
years ago and then work your wayup.
But, the single focus.
Thinkers don't care, they justwant to know what am I supposed
to do?
Am I supposed to fix this ornot?
When the two sides thinkthey're communicating but not,
that's where the resentmentcomes in.
And it's as if men spokeSpanish and women spoke Italian.
(31:50):
And if you're speaking Italianto a Spaniard, they're going to
understand more or less what youhave to say.
They're going to understandmore or less what you have to
say, but really you're going toknow that you're speaking a
different language and allow forthat.
And what I like about that isthat it means it's not people
are being obnoxious or bad toeach other, it's just a
(32:16):
translation issue.
And if you think of it as atranslation issue, anytime
you're speaking to get a resultthat's why my company name is
Strategic Speaking for Resultsanytime you need to convince
somebody, that's marketing.
That's marketing your idea.
That's marketing your idea.
(32:37):
And the first lesson ismarketing is speak to the
customer in a language they canunderstand.
So I don't think of it asbetraying who you are.
I think of it as saying whatyou want to say in a language
they can hear.
And then there are tools andtools and tools and lots of ways
(33:02):
that you do that, but that'sthe fundamental concept and then
how exactly you go about it.
That's what we do in theVisible and Valued Masterminds.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
I think your comment about having a rhythm of speech
and how a presentation isactually performed, which is
words I haven't used before, butit makes so much sense.
Greg, I've kind of monopolizedour conversation a little bit.
Do you have anything that youwould like to ask, elizabeth?
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Just one quick thing Elizabeth says I mentioned
before I spend a lot of time inhuman resources and senior HR
roles different companies overmany years and one of the things
that I saw a lot of wasToastmasters and executive
coaching and executivepresentation skills very
valuable.
So thanks for doing that workand keep it rolling.
And I also saw that there werea couple of things that were a
little disheartening.
(33:53):
One was sometimes we used tocall the sisterhood wasn't
always there.
Not every woman was supportingevery woman.
Right and not much to say exceptthat was divisive.
But I thought it was veryhelpful when the senior men
would be advocates and theywould say hey, janie had a point
there.
I think she got cut off.
Janie, what was your point?
(34:14):
And actually, in a meeting,open up the gateway, the doorway
to let a person who was veryqualified and very talented let
her voice be heard.
So I guess I'm a pitch forcontinuing to have other folks
be part of the process.
Speaker 3 (34:26):
Well, a large part of what I do now is not just with
women.
But so if you think of singlefocus and multifocused and John,
engineers are kind of acategory of their own in between
.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
I know.
Speaker 3 (34:40):
In their own category , but I work a lot with
scientists and engineers to helpthem humanize their stories.
If you bit, the thing is thatif you're aware that the other
person isn't hearing you andit's not because they hate you,
it's because you're not speakingtheir language, then you can
(35:02):
adapt and you can also teach thesingle focus thing.
So the easy one to think of isif you are single focused and
you have people on your team whotell long, rambling stories, if
you know the relationalthinkers, they need to be
acknowledged because they seethe world in relationships.
(35:25):
So it's okay to say I careabout you, I want to know what
you have to say, I believe inyour information and I just
don't have time for it right now.
Let's make an appointment andthen I can give you my full
attention and you can tell methe whole thing.
And the relational thinkerneeds to know that.
(35:48):
The single focus thinker cannotunderstand If you're gonna tell
a long, rambling story.
They're not gonna be able tofollow because they only have
one thought in their head at atime.
It doesn't only do one thing ata time.
So simplify it, you know, tellthem in a language they can
understand, which is actuallymarketing 101.
(36:11):
It's just never I haven't heardanybody else but me apply it to
the conversation within anorganization.
And then allies are the crucialpiece of it.
If they're not listening to you, who are they listening to?
And the reason why we listen tomen more often than to women is
(36:33):
because of centuries ofsocialization We've been trained
to.
You know, society has trainedus to listen to men more than to
women, and that is changing,that's adapting.
So those divisions aredissolving little by little.
At this point I think 20 yearsfrom now it's going to be
(36:55):
different.
By the time my great niecegrows up and has her kids,
she'll be dealing with adifferent issue.
It won't be this one.
I think this is slowly goingaway.
For the single focus thinkers torecognize that there's well,
(37:16):
actually just say you know.
There's well, actually just sayyou know.
Men, if you would say you knowyour standard white men of with
some authority have an easierpath.
There's a wonderful book calledGood Guys by David Smith and
(37:44):
Brad Johnson.
That is for men, to help menbecome better allies and to
learn to notice.
And what you have to do firstis awareness, is to notice
what's happening, and then younotice it, and then the more you
notice, then you can dosomething about it.
And that's a little bit ofawareness training on both sides
.
I mean cliches on both sides.
Women have their own clichesand their own ways of just
dismissing a situation, becauseit's easier to do that than it
(38:09):
is to actually take it apart andfix it.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
I think, Greg and I both have daughters that we both
admire and are leaders in theirown rights.
My daughter is into teachingand she made a wonderful
statement.
I made a typical engineer'sobservation.
She stopped me, she went.
This is a career, this is acalling.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
This isn't a job.
What do you say at that point?
Speaker 2 (38:42):
It's like you know, nevermind Scratch everything.
I just said.
My work is done.
My work is done.
That's a perfect answer.
You clearly got it from yourmom because I wasn't bright
enough to come up with that one.
But yeah, it is something whereI have found myself in a
position of championing thatvoice for a woman to be heard,
(39:07):
to champion other people thataren't being listened to.
And a part of that is alsobeing an engineer, and I think
I'm the exception, becauseusually they don't listen very
well.
They like to do the talking,they don't like to do the
listening.
So that's the other challengeof some of my peers that I had
(39:29):
to basically change them at thesame time if I was going to get
across an idea.
Speaker 3 (39:33):
That's habit.
That's habit that is that we'reso used to, that's habit, that
is that we're so used to, wetake it for granted and we don't
actually recognize that this issomething that can be changed.
But if you think of it just asa habit, then most of the time
it's habitual.
It's not intentional.
(39:54):
I mean, yes, there are the oneswho are out to get you there
Most exist too yes, but most,95% of the time, it's
unintentional.
I mean yes, there are the oneswho are out to get you there.
Most exist too, but most, 95%of the time, it's unintentional.
And so if you can make someone,the first step to changing a
habit is to become aware of it,and you know, no matter who you
(40:17):
are.
And so that's recognizing that,that's the first step is
awareness, action, allies it'sone of the ways.
Awareness, adaptation andallies are three ways to think
about it.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
That's awesome, elizabeth.
We could talk for hours on end,but we do have a little bit of
a time limit.
I so much want to talk to youfurther and and I got a feeling
we will I could use somecoaching.
There was an interesting thingof how to get speaking gigs.
It's like, okay, putting theeffort is the is kind of like
(40:53):
the bottom line of what you weretalking about and there's a
path to that.
But as we close, is thereanything that you would like to
talk about the contactinformation or a little bit more
about your book, because I findit intriguing?
Is there anything that youwould like to add as as we close
up our our time?
Speaker 3 (41:11):
well, the book's not ready for publication yet.
I've got I've got some workstill to do, so I have to make
sure I I finished that, buttalking to you is going to make
me go blow the dust off it ifyou will Follow me on LinkedIn.
I'm very active on LinkedIn andthat's where I have my most
recent ideas.
(41:32):
I have a website atElizabethBachmancom, but,
frankly, linkedin is a littlebit more up to date, so I don't
always do what I recommend, butI don't always take my own
advice.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
Well, that's pretty much a wrap.
My book is available onamazoncom and Barnes Noble
Building your Leadership Toolbox.
The podcast is what you'relistening to.
Thank you, that's awesome.
It's also available in otherpopular formats like Spotify and
Apple.
The way to contact us I have awebsite, authorjawcom.
(42:12):
You can get a hold of methrough.
Get a hold of Greg and Ithrough that format.
Music is brought to you by mygrandson and it's been a real
opportunity to share some greatideas.
Elizabeth has a wealth ofknowledge.
Look her up on LinkedIn.
It would be a great investmentof your time.
(42:32):
So, greg, thanks, man, thanks.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
John, as always.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
Next time yeah.
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