May 23, 2025 • 32 mins
What if the key to transformational leadership isn't having all the answers, but knowing how to ask the right questions? Join John and Greg as they discuss leadership insights with Patrick Farran, PhD and MBA. Patrick reveals the secrets that many executives miss when stepping into new roles or leading significant change initiatives.
Drawing from decades of experience as a consultant, coach, and founder of Ad Lucem Group, Patrick shares powerful insights from his upcoming book, "The Intentional Executive." He challenges the myth that leaders must have all the answers, instead advocating for a purpose-driven approach where executives serve as catalysts, mentors, and facilitators who know when to get out of their team's way.
The conversation explores the fascinating "IKEA effect" — research showing people value what they help create. Patrick translates this into a leadership principle: "people support what they help co-create." Through intentional listening tours and authentic engagement, leaders can build alignment and ownership that traditional top-down management simply cannot achieve.
We also dive into the Pygmalion effect, where expectations become self-fulfilling prophecies. Patrick explains how high-performing teams ask more questions than they advocate positions, creating an environment where constructive conflict and diverse perspectives lead to more robust solutions. This approach isn't about avoiding disagreement but fostering healthy, respectful dialogue that embraces diversity of thought.
Perhaps most importantly, Patrick emphasizes that leadership is a learned skill, not a fixed trait. Anyone can develop these capabilities with practice, persistence, and the right mindset. The pandemic taught valuable lessons about trust, agency, and adaptability that effective leaders are now applying to create more engaged, productive workplaces.
Whether you're a new executive navigating a challenging transition or an experienced leader looking to transform your approach, this episode offers practical wisdom to center yourself on purpose, engage your team through co-creation, and achieve better results while making work more meaningful for everyone involved.
Want to learn more? Visit adlucemgroup.com for free resources and information about Patrick's upcoming book, or connect with him directly on LinkedIn.
Presented by John Wandolowski and Greg Powell
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Well, hello and welcome to our podcast, success
Secrets and Stories.
I'm your host, john Wondolowski, and I'm here with my co-host
and friend, greg Powell.
Greg, hey, everybody, yeah, andtoday we'd like to welcome
Patrick Ferron, and he has a PhDand an MBA and, as he has
(00:40):
described it, he is calling toindividuals and organizations,
in terms of being transformative, to advance value-driven
leadership and to look forstrength-based approaches.
He helps organizations tonavigate complex changes while
simultaneously buildingengagement and meaningful work,
(01:03):
consisting both of strategicobjectives and enhanced employee
engagement.
Patrick, a consultant that Ithink can offer a lot to our
audience, welcome.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Yeah, so I would say my early career actually started
as a high school chemistry mathteacher back in the day.
I spent 20 plus years incorporate consulting, founded my
own consulting company, builtout my team there and the
unifying thread throughout thearc of my career is I feel like
I'm a calling for coaching andteaching and developing others
and that's manifested itself indifferent ways over the course
(01:36):
of my career and in differentcontexts, but that really has
been my driving force and what Ilike to, what gets me up each
morning and what I want tocontribute force and what I like
to.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
you know what gets me up each morning and what I want
to contribute.
Awesome, so you're working on abook right now.
Maybe you can tell us a littlebit about the book that you're
working on and how that ties ina lot to what you've done to
date.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
Sure, my co-author, dr Melissa Norcross.
She co-founded Adluchum Groupwith me and I met her in our
executive PhD program some eight, nine years ago.
I'm losing track of the timehere, but we are working on a
book that's set to be releasedhere in very short order.
It's titled the IntentionalExecutive.
It's a purpose driven playbookto transform your leadership,
(02:19):
your team and your results, andultimately it's to help folks
who are new to a senior leaderrole and or have a significant
change mandate that they need toimplement, helping them center
on purpose for themselves,helping them center their teams
on purpose, to engage in someholistic management practices
that will ultimately get thembetter results.
(02:41):
I mean, the unfortunate realityis the research shows that up to
50% of executive transitionstend to fail within the first 18
months, and that comes at ahard organizational cost of up
to 10x the executive salary ormore, and so there are some very
real implications to theorganizations and certainly, as
the new executive leader, youdon't want to be in that case.
(03:03):
Most of the executives we workwith have the best of intentions
, want to do well, but sometimeswe're our own worst enemies and
there's various pitfalls.
So we're really trying to helpthose executives land well, help
their teams transform and feelengaged and ultimately impact
those organizations in impactfulways so the clients and the
communities they serve, they canhave that positive ripple
(03:25):
effect.
So that's really ourorganizational mission to do
that.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
So that's years of experience working as a
consultant and working as acoach and working as a mentor.
You've done mentoring at thesame time.
A little bit more about thebook, the elements that you
found that were really engaging,the piece that really starts to
connect with the audience thatare going to be reading this at
(03:49):
an executive level what kind ofhighlights can you talk about
that really hit the mark?
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Sure, and I'll.
You know, obviously I can't doit justice in this amount of
time here, but just to give someof the key points, as you
alluded to, I would say that westart with centering yourself on
purpose.
You know, if you are, you knowNietzsche.
Friedrich Nietzsche would saythat if you have a big enough
why I'm paraphrasing you canendure anyhow.
Right, and you know, I did myresearch on work meaningfulness
(04:18):
and infused that withappreciative inquiry, which is a
strengths-based methodology.
One of the things about ViktorFrankl's work in Man's Search
for Meaning, when he looked atconcentration camp survivors.
You know an interestingphenomenon that if they were
clear on their purpose and whatthey were living for, they were
more likely to get out of thatcamp.
Right, and under these horrificconditions.
Right, these unspeakableconditions.
(04:38):
And the reality is that, youknow, it doesn't have to be that
traumatic a situation.
The reality is that we'recentered on our why in life.
Right, it helps us be clear onwhat we're doing, why we're
doing things both personally, asan individually, as a team and
as an organization.
It really becomes our NorthStar and our compass.
So we really use that NorthStar metaphor throughout our
(05:00):
book.
It's very research-based butvery practitioner-oriented
throughout our book.
It's very research-based butvery practitioner-oriented.
And so, looking at things, someof the concepts that we look at
are the fact that a lot ofexecutives come and they're new
to a role and they feel likethere's this implicit sense that
I have to have all the answers.
And the reality is, once you canbe liberated from that myth and
realize that you're there toserve as a catalyst and a mentor
(05:23):
and a facilitator and a guide,right, it becomes liberating to
realize I don't have to have allthe answers, I need to ask
better questions, know how tobest support my team, and
sometimes the best leaders justknow how to get out of the way.
You know, cultivate theconditions of support and then
let folks do their good workthat they were hired to do, and
(05:43):
that's easier said than done.
So we've provided some guidanceand some practical tools for
engaging your teams in that.
One of the other concepts wetake a close look at is the
concept of co-creation and I'llsay you know, there's some
interesting research out there.
It's called the IKEA effect.
I'm presuming that most folksare familiar with IKEA furniture
.
And if you're not, it'sbasically assemble your own
(06:03):
furniture from Sweden.
And the reality is there's abody of research that has shown
that when people assemble theirown furniture they actually
value that more highly than apremium piece of furniture they
can find on the market.
And that transcends into, asyou can imagine, in an
organizational context.
We ultimately say that peoplesupport what they help to
(06:25):
co-create.
So one of the secret sauces togood leadership, especially when
you're new in your role, is todo some very intentional.
We give some guidance around howto do an effective listening
tour, for example, and thatstarts to you know.
That provides your employeeswith an avenue for authentic
voice and input into process.
And then we provide someguidance for different ways that
(06:46):
you can scale and provideco-creation support for your
teams.
Right, because ultimately, ifyou have a significant change
management and everyone'saligned with that and rowing in
the same direction, it's goingto be much more likely to be
successful than if you're doingsort of this top-down
traditional management.
So those are a few of thecentral tenets.
There's a lot more that I couldspeak to, but I'll pause there
(07:06):
and see if that sparks anyparticular areas that you'd like
to explore further.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Well, it does, because one of the things that I
think springs to my mind is theelement of listening, and the
ability to work withcommunication is the cornerstone
for almost any process thatthey're going to be dealing with
, and I would assume that thebest executives do a better job
of listening than they dotalking.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
That's correct.
There's actually research thathas identified that the highest
performing teams actually askmore questions than they do
advocating for their ownposition.
Right, and so, if you can comeat things with an attitude of
curiosity and engagement andtrying to understand someone's
point of view and perspective,it's not about having a
(07:52):
frictionless, conflict-less team.
That's not what the message is,right.
It's not about beingPollyannaish and say we should
all get along and sing Kumbaya,but it's about how can you
support constructive conflict ina way, creative conflict that's
healthy, that is respectful ofone another and has diversity of
thought and opinions anddemographics and all those
things that provide a richnessand solution that, if it's
(08:17):
absent or void of that right,the solution they're going to
come up with is just not goingto be as robust.
Right?
Speaker 2 (08:23):
It has to have the groundwork.
It can't be just yes men or yeswomen.
It has to have that engagementin order to have ownership, to
take some sense ofresponsibility for the end
result.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Okay, the other part that I think is interesting,
that you're putting togetherthis book.
The other part that I think isinteresting that you're putting
together this book, when I heardthe element of planning and how
to plan your approach, yourcareer, your expectations.
It isn't a one and done kind ofenvironment.
You have to do it on a regularbasis, whether it's two years,
five years.
What element, within even theexecutive level, do you see that
(09:03):
this process has to be repeated?
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Yeah, and that's a great point and that's exactly
right.
I think one of the things thatwe tend to look at especially in
the context of your first 90days or first 100 days on a job,
for example, if you want to usethat use case is looking for
what are some quick wins thatyou might be able to achieve
right.
To achieve right, and part ofthat is going to be what are the
key relationships that are mostimportant in your limited time
to cultivate in kind of whatorder?
(09:30):
But also what are those areaswhere you need to learn more.
Right, you know it's lookingfor areas where you can be
decisive in those exploratorysteps to getting more data, for
example, to engaging the rightfolks and learning more and
realizing that you probablydon't yet know what you don't
yet know right, and so if youcan flesh that.
The more quickly you can fleshthat out, the more that will
(09:52):
help you make appropriatedecisions in a timely manner.
Right?
And part of that then, inaddition to those quick wins,
more fundamentally, is lookingfor what are those foundational
areas that are going tocontribute to long-term success.
You know, identifying whatthose pillars are.
Part of that, you know we talkabout, is coming in.
Typically, it's really commonthat there's going to be some
(10:12):
mandates and some perspectivesthat might be shared with you
explicitly or implicitly, thathey, it's X, You're coming in,
it's a certain assumption orit's this way, and our
encouragement to folks who arenew in the role, but in general
for all of us, is to questionthose assumptions.
Right, Because the reality isit's very often not as simple as
(10:34):
whatever might appear on thesurface.
And so you know we talk aboutengaging in divergent thinking
first before you engage inconvergent thinking, and by
divergent thinking, that meansopening up the various
possibilities that might exist.
How do you?
Brainstorm is one example ofthat kind of divergent process,
(10:54):
and so there's an appropriatetime for thinking about what are
the different options thatmight be available to us before
we start to converge on oneassumption that we might have
eliminated this whole host ofyou know more engaging options,
or more you know, just thingsthat are going to produce a
better result, if we too quicklyjump to that one conclusion.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
So, Greg, with your background in human resources
and especially the things thatyou've done with mentoring, do
you have any questions forPatrick?
Speaker 1 (11:22):
I have a couple, but one in particular.
So, patrick, when John and I,before we retired, we were still
working in the workforce duringthe pandemic, and so when I
think about some things that youdo in organizational
transformation, changemanagement, executive leadership
, I mean we were still trying todo that kind of work, with some
people working from home andsome people are on a hybrid
schedule.
Whatever Any lessons learnedthat you said, gosh, the
(11:45):
pandemic was a reallychallenging time.
It was challenging for yourindustry in particular.
But any lessons learned thatcame out and said, gosh, we're
better for that, we've done thisbetter because we made it
through the pandemic.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
So it's an interesting question.
I think a couple of things cometo mind.
First of all, people are stillpeople, right, and we still have
a fundamental desire and needfor community, right, and so
during those periods or duringother times of tumult, looking
for ways to create somesemblance of community and
belonging, even if the modalitymay be in a Zoom room, which is
maybe less than ideal in somecontexts, but looking for those
(12:18):
ways to still support that, youknow.
And then I think a couple otherthings that come to mind that
were really key from thatexperience is the need to be
creative and adaptive Right.
Again, we often get acclimatedto doing things a certain way,
and this is a good example.
We make this assumption thatit's always got to be this way
(12:42):
because that's the way we'vealways done it.
If the pandemic taught usnothing else, that that's not
necessarily the case, right, andone of the other things that I
have a personal passion about isreally allowing folks sense of
agency over their own lives tothe fullest extent possible,
right, and that's going to varyin terms of what that looks like
, you know, given people's jobdescriptions and their roles and
(13:05):
the organizational context andso forth, but I think all too
often there are in some culturesand contexts there's this fear
mentality of if we give peopletoo much agency and autonomy
right, that they're not going toproduce the results.
And my brother, who I work within my consulting practice, often
says if we trust people tooverwork in the hours you know
(13:27):
in and after, you know theweekend hours and after hours
and so forth, and overwork there, why does that suddenly change
between the hours of nine tofive, right, and I think the
fundamental message of that isyou know, the more we can trust
people that you know.
Most jobs that wereknowledge-based right, the light
still stayed on and some thingsgot done actually more
effectively.
There's some emerging researchthat suggested for some types of
(13:50):
things there can be greaterproductivity when you don't have
to deal with all the variousdistractions.
So it's finding, like allthings, it's finding things in
balance.
So I think that would beprobably.
The other lesson is I thinkmost of us probably don't want
to have one extreme or the other, but how can we create and
(14:10):
design our own days and weeks asmuch as possible so to the
fullest extent that leaders cansupport agency and their folks'
work?
That's a really powerfuloutcome.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
So a little bit of what happened during the
pandemic, but mostly what Ithink you've dealt with and
promoted things like mentoringand 1871, which I think we
should talk about 1871 a littlebit, but I think mentoring is
the other part of leadershipthat sometimes is missed as a
core requirement of what we needto do to build bench strength.
(14:46):
Maybe you can talk a little bitabout that.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
Yeah, so the 1871 experience you identified for
example, that's one of myvolunteer hats that I wear is
serving as a mentor in the 1871startup ecosystem in the Chicago
area serving as a mentor in the1871 startup ecosystem in the
Chicago area.
So I've worked with a lot ofstartup founders who are just
trying to get their legs underthem as they're starting their
new ventures and so forth, andthis comes back to my sense of
(15:15):
calling to and this may soundtrite, but I want to make the
world a better place.
Ultimately, at the end of theday, most of us do in our own
way, right, way right, and so,for me, one of the ways that
most engages me I just getshared joy from helping people
to be successful in whatevertheir endeavors are right and
simply put, and so that's one ofseveral communities that I've
been involved with.
I think more broadly to yourpoint.
I think, as leaders, it'sincumbent upon us to look for
(15:36):
ways to pay it forward, all theleadership lessons and support
and mentoring that we'vereceived and been the
beneficiaries from those who'vegone before us.
We have a fiduciaryresponsibility, in my opinion,
to pay that forward, and solooking for ways that we can do
that meaningfully, that alignwith our skills and interests
and energies, and that may varyat different chapters of our
(15:57):
life in terms of what that lookslike, but I always encourage
leaders to have that up and thereality is, when we do that,
that also.
This shouldn't be themotivating factor for it, in my
opinion, but there is a sidebenefit that when we give and
volunteer and serve, thatactually tends to make us feel
better as well.
It's one of the best antidotesto when you're feeling down or
have the blues is do somethingfor someone else.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
I always say so true you're feeling down or have the
blues is do something forsomeone else.
I always say so, true.
So the elements in the bookwhich intrigues me what was the
motivating factor that reallycreated the emphasis to write
the book?
Was there an event that reallyhelped?
Speaker 3 (16:34):
It's a great question I don't know that there's one
event necessarily it's probablymore the fact that in our
practice at Luchum Group we doour primary areas of support
providing executive coaching andadvisory support to our clients
and, both in the research andin our experience and practice,
(17:00):
who've who've done exceptionalwork in those areas that we can
learn from.
So we wanted to shine a lightfrom and share those learnings
with others.
And we've also seen we've all,we've all made missteps and
stand on, you know, stood on thelandmines, and so we want to
shine a light on those as welland help folks avoid those where
they can.
So bringing those to lightbecause we want our clients and
(17:21):
everyone out there that we canserve with this information to
be successful in their livesright, and so we want to share
that information.
And we feel like too, if you'resuccessful as a leader, the
profound ripple effects that itcan have on your organization,
those you serve, both as theemployees and the clients you
serve, the customers you have onyour organization, those you
serve, both the employees andthe clients you serve, the
(17:42):
customers you have, et cetera,the mission you're fulfilling
the community ripple effects canbe powerful, for good or not.
We've seen plenty of cases outthere.
Conversely, if you're not doingthat well and not doing that
mindfully, there can be a wholehost of damage that falls, and
so we'd like to be on the sideof the equation that's helping
to make that possible.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
What I found interesting is there's leaders
that work with people andunderstand that their mission is
to work and develop staff, andthere are leaders who are there
because of technical advancementand really haven't made that
connection of what it means tobe an executive and have to
learn a whole new language inorder to make that change.
Now I don't want to name a nameof an executive because that
(18:24):
changes with time, but have younoticed that it's cyclical?
They get it and then at aperiod of time they become
complacent and see that thatwhole element that they had at
the beginning of the process nowhas dwindled away and because
they haven't had a reset,they've lost their emphasis to
try to advance.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Well, and I think you stated maybe another way and
reflect back what I think I'mhearing.
I mean, the reality is thatleadership, like many things, is
a skill.
It's a learned skill that youneed to practice and, again, it
will manifest differently fordifferent folks in terms of how
they practice their leadership.
For some, certain aspects of itmay come more naturally than
(19:04):
others.
Right, particularly if you hada background that is, more as an
individual contributor orsomething where you didn't have
to worry about other people inthat regard right.
So that's going to have a hostof a learning curve associated
with that.
The good news is, because it's alearning curve, it can be
learned right.
And so if you can approach itwith a learner's mindset as
opposed to a fixed trait mindset, saying I'm either good at
(19:27):
leadership or I'm not, that's amisnomer.
So sometimes I'll coach onmindset for folks if they come
and say that's just not my cupof tea.
Well, maybe, maybe not right.
It's one thing to say if wedon't enjoy certain aspect of
our responsibility to be mindfulto that.
But one of the questions Ioften ask folks to think about
is it because we're goingthrough that initial learning
(19:47):
phase, because there's always,you know, as, as Brene Brown and
the military often say,sometimes you just have to
embrace the suck when you'relearning and going through that
you know, that phase and it'slike, okay, you know we're going
to feel awkward, we're going tomake these mistakes and that's
okay, it's part of the process.
(20:09):
But if you can learn to enjoythat process and learn to enjoy
what's, on the other side ofthat that can be very powerful
and transformational.
So those are a couple ofthoughts that I'll offer there.
As far as the learningdevelopment, if you will, Does
that spark any follow-ups foryou there?
Speaker 2 (20:18):
It does.
It does, and one of the thingsthat comes to mind for me was a
phrase that I got from Dr Durstfrom his MBR series we are
responsible for everything thatwe do, whether we like the
results or not, and I've lookedat a few of the articles that
you've written trying toencourage people to be proactive
and get engaged.
Any motivational phrase thatkind of rings the bell that
(20:42):
helps people to have like afocus moment.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
No, it's a really good question.
I don't know if they have aphrase, necessarily, but I think
the one thing that I oftencoach on is, as you alluded to,
is that we often can't controlwhat happens to us, but we can
control or influence, or learnto control and train.
How do we respond to that?
Right, and that starts with themindfulness and, you know,
(21:05):
sometimes stepping back from thesituation, and that's that's
one of the many skills that youcan learn as leaders to take a
step back.
You know talking about.
You know one of the one of themetaphors we talked about.
You know getting on the balcony, the proverbial balcony, so you
can look at things from a newperspective and ask yourself
what is going on thereobjectively, because that can be
really helpful.
You made a comment a moment agothat struck something for me,
(21:28):
and that's the reality is thatwe are always learning.
It's not like you ever arrivefor any skill set.
It's not like you don't.
If you don't use it, you'regoing to lose it, right?
So, even if you are, you know,if there is such a thing as
practicing good leadership, it'sthe kind of thing you always
have to be mindful.
There's always going to be newcurveballs and new challenges,
so it's never like we suddenlyarrive and we can just rest on
(21:49):
our laurels.
It's continually something wehave to work at.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
So you're working with a co-author, and that
cooperation is an exercise ofleadership too.
Maybe you can talk about thedynamics of working and
developing something that youboth put your name on, and how
that partnership works and thatinteraction works.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Yeah, and I think that's a good example where
there is some very deep trustand rapport that we've built up
over the years.
There's recognition of thedifferent skill sets and
interests and energies that weeach have.
I often say that Melissa is amuch more prolific writer.
I mean she could put like Iconsider myself a decent writer,
but it takes a lot more effortfor me to get words on the page.
(22:31):
I consider myself a bettereditor than a writer.
I often tend to be verbose aswell.
Melissa has a gift to just cutto the point, for example, and
put things out, and so there isa good complement of gifts and I
think that's a good metaphorfor many of us.
When you can look for you knowhow can we look for ways that we
(22:51):
can each leverage our ownstrengths?
Drucker has a great quote thatI'll paraphrase, if I get it
close here.
He says the central task ofleadership is to manage
strengths such that weaknessesare irrelevant.
I paraphrase it a little bit,but that's a really powerful
tenet that if we focus,sometimes we get so mired on.
Well, I'm not good at X, so Igot to work up X, and there's a
(23:13):
time and a place to work onshoring up our deficits, for
sure, right At the same time, ifyou have a gift of strength,
sometimes doubling down on thoseis going to have a much better
ROI for you and the way you leadas well.
So there's something to be saidfor that focus there too.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
So another element that just rings as we're
speaking, the strength alsocomes from your parents and from
those influences and you've hadthe experience of working with
and learning from, I should say,your parents maybe a little of
the background on how theydeveloped your starting point
(23:51):
and how they helped you as yougrew and went along your career.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
I appreciate that my parents were very inspirational
for me on multiple levels.
My dad was an iconic teacher of47 years.
He was one of those teachersthat everyone remembers him and
I could tell you story afterstory there.
So it was fun for me.
I had the distinct pleasure ofco-teaching with him in my early
(24:17):
career but he influenced me ina number of ways to see the way
he modeled.
I often see the way I coachright.
I can see my dad in those kindof exchanges that I have his
deep care for those that heserved in that capacity.
And my mom was a gerontologicalresearcher.
She dedicated her work toAlzheimer's caregiver the
caregivers of Alzheimer'spatients.
(24:39):
She run the Rosalind CarterFoundation Award for her
advancement of caregiversresearch One of her favorite
distinctions there.
She's well-published.
She led the PhD program ofnursing at Rush during her
career.
Doesn't discriminate, sheherself has Alzheimer's now but
(25:06):
she has been an inspiration.
We often joke she was one of myearly teachers of my writing
back in high school.
She'd often review my papersand we had a lot of friction
there, but she made me a betterwriter and I had the distinct
pleasure on the back end of mycareer here with my mom.
She was able to serve as aspecial advisor on my
dissertation work.
She was actually one of myfirst employers, if you will.
I got to code her dissertationon Hope back in the very early
(25:31):
80s, and so that was one of myfirst jobs, and so that was a
very formative time for me aswell, in addition to going and
helping my dad prepare for allhis students.
So both of them were veryformative in my life, for sure,
and in terms of instilling forme the value of service so much
(26:04):
making something or producingsomething or getting through the
shift.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
It was developing the people that are there and
having the chance to actuallyengage on their dreams, their
wishes, their ambitions.
Try to foster some other kindof new thoughts, new
opportunities to think out ofthe box thoughts.
(26:26):
New opportunities to think outof the box, working and
understanding the ways that yourfather challenged students.
Your mom worked with teachersand with the medical world and
it's a tough world to deal within the medical side.
Those are admirable teachersthat you've been able to deal
with.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
And for me, we underestimate the impact
sometimes that we can have onfolks.
You know even one conversationsometimes.
You know maybe a conversationin a coaching context, for
example, and say, hey, this isso helpful, blah, blah, blah,
and I did this and that, and Imay have even forgotten that,
right, but it was somethingimpactful.
And so it reminds me of thepower and importance of us to be
(27:04):
mindful.
We're not perfect, right, butwe should be really mindful of
how we wield that power and thatresponsibility in our lives,
because we do make a very bigimpact, and so I consider that a
very significant responsibilitythat we all hold as leaders.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
So just to change the subject just for a second,
you've also written a lot ofarticles.
I found the one you didn't comethis far to only come this far.
I love the opening phrase, thepart that I found that is
consistent that I have foundboth frustrating and encouraging
is you talked about thePygmalion effect and how that
(27:41):
affects people.
Maybe you can expand a littlebit on that.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
The big alien effect for those who aren't familiar is
basically that it's theself-fulfilling prophecy, in
other words, right, and so therewas actually a research study.
I don't have it at myfingertips, I think it was in
the late 60s.
It's not ethical now, right,but they had basically two
groups within a classroom andthey said, said, you know,
basically, they told teachersthese are your gifted kids and
these are your not gifted kids,based upon some false test
results.
And what they found, basically,is that it became a
(28:12):
self-fulfilling prophecy thatthe students who were gifted you
know, supposedly, quote unquotewere treated differently, you
know, and that became the youknow, they rose to those
expectations and, conversely,those that were not fell to
those expectations.
Right, so you know, that'scertainly the.
There are some significantimplications from a leadership
(28:33):
perspective that if you come atsomeone from a, I'm going to set
the bar up here and I'mexpecting you to meet these
expectations, right, that has adifferent impact than trying to
be controlling and worryingabout all the.
It comes back to the earlierdiscussion in COVID.
Right, we saw a lot offear-based management and
worrying oh, people aren't doingtheir jobs and they're this and
that, and suddenly, in thatfear and insecurity, we clamp
(28:54):
down and we try and control andthat actually works against you.
And then people feel you know,they react and resist that when
the reality, if you trust themlike they trust them, like
you've always trusted them to dotheir job, presumably right, If
you hired, well, they should dotheir job for you, right.
Let them do their work.
And so that's a really powerfulconcept for us to be aware of
as leaders as well.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Yeah, anybody can bully, anybody can criticize.
It's so hard to actuallyencourage people, especially
when it's a dire kind ofenvironment.
Look for the successes, takethe small steps.
Recognize the small steps, allthose things to try to build.
One of my favorites is a glassis half full or half empty, or
(29:35):
it could be murky, or maybe it'shalf full of vodka.
You don't know what you'redealing with, but it's how you
perceive it.
It's half full, it's not halfempty, and it has an impact in
terms of how other people seemanagement and how they reflect
it.
They're wonderful mirrors ifyou don't do a decent job of
setting it up and understandingthe impact that you have.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
And it's so much more fun to lead that way too.
I mean simply put right, I'dmuch rather have that kind of
energy right.
So again, it's liberating whenyou can allow yourself to
practice that.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Greg, do you have any other questions?
For Patrick, some years ago wewere trying to work ourselves
out of a job right.
Teach managers, preparemanagers.
They could do the things we'retrying to help them with, but
the services and the expertiseyou provide make them even
better.
Help the organization getbetter.
So please keep it rolling.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
Yeah no I appreciate the opportunity to speak with
you guys and if I can help outof your listeners, they're
welcome to reach out and I'mhappy to have conversation with
them.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Why don't you give us a little bit of your contact
information for them to have?
Speaker 3 (30:42):
So you could check by .
My website is adlucmgroupcom.
A-d-l-u-c-m-g-r-o-u-pcom, andthere you know we've got.
You can do a free strategysession with me.
I've got some resources forteam assessments and so forth.
You can sign up for our blogarticles.
Those are all free resources,depending on when you're
listening to this.
We'll have information aboutour book out there, which will
be forthcoming in short order.
(31:03):
Or you can check me out onLinkedIn Patrick Faran,
f-a-r-r-a-n.
Drop me a note in the LinkedInIf you send me a connection
request.
Let me know.
You heard us on this podcast,so I don't think you're spam and
I'll be happy to connect withfolks.
I definitely like to.
You know I always want to payit forward and serve the
networking community, so happyto make connections for anyone
(31:23):
who finds this meaningful orhelpful.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
That's awesome.
Well, thank you, patrick.
I really appreciate it.
It was a lot of insight and Ithink it's very helpful for our
leadership approach.
You're listening to our podcast.
It's available on Apple, google, spotify and other formats.
We've talked about Dr Durson atsuccessgrowthacademycom and if
you want to get in contact withGreg or I, you can contact us at
(31:48):
authorjawcom.
Music has been brought to youby my grandson, so, thank you,
we want to hear from you and weappreciate your input, but most
of all, thank you, patrick, weappreciate it, it's been a
pleasure.
(32:09):
And Greg.
Thank you, patrick, weappreciate it.
And greg, thank you.
Thanks, john, as always nexttime.
Well, hello and welcome to our podcast, success
Secrets and Stories.
I'm your host, john Wondolowski, and I'm here with my co-host
and friend, greg Powell.
Greg, hey, everybody, yeah, andtoday we'd like to welcome
Patrick Ferron, and he has a PhDand an MBA and, as he has
(00:40):
described it, he is calling toindividuals and organizations,
in terms of being transformative, to advance value-driven
leadership and to look forstrength-based approaches.
He helps organizations tonavigate complex changes while
simultaneously buildingengagement and meaningful work,
(01:03):
consisting both of strategicobjectives and enhanced employee
engagement.
Patrick, a consultant that Ithink can offer a lot to our
audience, welcome.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Yeah, so I would say my early career actually started
as a high school chemistry mathteacher back in the day.
I spent 20 plus years incorporate consulting, founded my
own consulting company, builtout my team there and the
unifying thread throughout thearc of my career is I feel like
I'm a calling for coaching andteaching and developing others
and that's manifested itself indifferent ways over the course
(01:36):
of my career and in differentcontexts, but that really has
been my driving force and what Ilike to, what gets me up each
morning and what I want tocontribute force and what I like
to.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
you know what gets me up each morning and what I want
to contribute.
Awesome, so you're working on abook right now.
Maybe you can tell us a littlebit about the book that you're
working on and how that ties ina lot to what you've done to
date.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
Sure, my co-author, dr Melissa Norcross.
She co-founded Adluchum Groupwith me and I met her in our
executive PhD program some eight, nine years ago.
I'm losing track of the timehere, but we are working on a
book that's set to be releasedhere in very short order.
It's titled the IntentionalExecutive.
It's a purpose driven playbookto transform your leadership,
(02:19):
your team and your results, andultimately it's to help folks
who are new to a senior leaderrole and or have a significant
change mandate that they need toimplement, helping them center
on purpose for themselves,helping them center their teams
on purpose, to engage in someholistic management practices
that will ultimately get thembetter results.
(02:41):
I mean, the unfortunate realityis the research shows that up to
50% of executive transitionstend to fail within the first 18
months, and that comes at ahard organizational cost of up
to 10x the executive salary ormore, and so there are some very
real implications to theorganizations and certainly, as
the new executive leader, youdon't want to be in that case.
(03:03):
Most of the executives we workwith have the best of intentions
, want to do well, but sometimeswe're our own worst enemies and
there's various pitfalls.
So we're really trying to helpthose executives land well, help
their teams transform and feelengaged and ultimately impact
those organizations in impactfulways so the clients and the
communities they serve, they canhave that positive ripple
(03:25):
effect.
So that's really ourorganizational mission to do
that.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
So that's years of experience working as a
consultant and working as acoach and working as a mentor.
You've done mentoring at thesame time.
A little bit more about thebook, the elements that you
found that were really engaging,the piece that really starts to
connect with the audience thatare going to be reading this at
(03:49):
an executive level what kind ofhighlights can you talk about
that really hit the mark?
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Sure, and I'll.
You know, obviously I can't doit justice in this amount of
time here, but just to give someof the key points, as you
alluded to, I would say that westart with centering yourself on
purpose.
You know, if you are, you knowNietzsche.
Friedrich Nietzsche would saythat if you have a big enough
why I'm paraphrasing you canendure anyhow.
Right, and you know, I did myresearch on work meaningfulness
(04:18):
and infused that withappreciative inquiry, which is a
strengths-based methodology.
One of the things about ViktorFrankl's work in Man's Search
for Meaning, when he looked atconcentration camp survivors.
You know an interestingphenomenon that if they were
clear on their purpose and whatthey were living for, they were
more likely to get out of thatcamp.
Right, and under these horrificconditions.
Right, these unspeakableconditions.
(04:38):
And the reality is that, youknow, it doesn't have to be that
traumatic a situation.
The reality is that we'recentered on our why in life.
Right, it helps us be clear onwhat we're doing, why we're
doing things both personally, asan individually, as a team and
as an organization.
It really becomes our NorthStar and our compass.
So we really use that NorthStar metaphor throughout our
(05:00):
book.
It's very research-based butvery practitioner-oriented
throughout our book.
It's very research-based butvery practitioner-oriented.
And so, looking at things, someof the concepts that we look at
are the fact that a lot ofexecutives come and they're new
to a role and they feel likethere's this implicit sense that
I have to have all the answers.
And the reality is, once you canbe liberated from that myth and
realize that you're there toserve as a catalyst and a mentor
(05:23):
and a facilitator and a guide,right, it becomes liberating to
realize I don't have to have allthe answers, I need to ask
better questions, know how tobest support my team, and
sometimes the best leaders justknow how to get out of the way.
You know, cultivate theconditions of support and then
let folks do their good workthat they were hired to do, and
(05:43):
that's easier said than done.
So we've provided some guidanceand some practical tools for
engaging your teams in that.
One of the other concepts wetake a close look at is the
concept of co-creation and I'llsay you know, there's some
interesting research out there.
It's called the IKEA effect.
I'm presuming that most folksare familiar with IKEA furniture
.
And if you're not, it'sbasically assemble your own
(06:03):
furniture from Sweden.
And the reality is there's abody of research that has shown
that when people assemble theirown furniture they actually
value that more highly than apremium piece of furniture they
can find on the market.
And that transcends into, asyou can imagine, in an
organizational context.
We ultimately say that peoplesupport what they help to
(06:25):
co-create.
So one of the secret sauces togood leadership, especially when
you're new in your role, is todo some very intentional.
We give some guidance around howto do an effective listening
tour, for example, and thatstarts to you know.
That provides your employeeswith an avenue for authentic
voice and input into process.
And then we provide someguidance for different ways that
(06:46):
you can scale and provideco-creation support for your
teams.
Right, because ultimately, ifyou have a significant change
management and everyone'saligned with that and rowing in
the same direction, it's goingto be much more likely to be
successful than if you're doingsort of this top-down
traditional management.
So those are a few of thecentral tenets.
There's a lot more that I couldspeak to, but I'll pause there
(07:06):
and see if that sparks anyparticular areas that you'd like
to explore further.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Well, it does, because one of the things that I
think springs to my mind is theelement of listening, and the
ability to work withcommunication is the cornerstone
for almost any process thatthey're going to be dealing with
, and I would assume that thebest executives do a better job
of listening than they dotalking.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
That's correct.
There's actually research thathas identified that the highest
performing teams actually askmore questions than they do
advocating for their ownposition.
Right, and so, if you can comeat things with an attitude of
curiosity and engagement andtrying to understand someone's
point of view and perspective,it's not about having a
(07:52):
frictionless, conflict-less team.
That's not what the message is,right.
It's not about beingPollyannaish and say we should
all get along and sing Kumbaya,but it's about how can you
support constructive conflict ina way, creative conflict that's
healthy, that is respectful ofone another and has diversity of
thought and opinions anddemographics and all those
things that provide a richnessand solution that, if it's
(08:17):
absent or void of that right,the solution they're going to
come up with is just not goingto be as robust.
Right?
Speaker 2 (08:23):
It has to have the groundwork.
It can't be just yes men or yeswomen.
It has to have that engagementin order to have ownership, to
take some sense ofresponsibility for the end
result.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Okay, the other part that I think is interesting,
that you're putting togetherthis book.
The other part that I think isinteresting that you're putting
together this book, when I heardthe element of planning and how
to plan your approach, yourcareer, your expectations.
It isn't a one and done kind ofenvironment.
You have to do it on a regularbasis, whether it's two years,
five years.
What element, within even theexecutive level, do you see that
(09:03):
this process has to be repeated?
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Yeah, and that's a great point and that's exactly
right.
I think one of the things thatwe tend to look at especially in
the context of your first 90days or first 100 days on a job,
for example, if you want to usethat use case is looking for
what are some quick wins thatyou might be able to achieve
right.
To achieve right, and part ofthat is going to be what are the
key relationships that are mostimportant in your limited time
to cultivate in kind of whatorder?
(09:30):
But also what are those areaswhere you need to learn more.
Right, you know it's lookingfor areas where you can be
decisive in those exploratorysteps to getting more data, for
example, to engaging the rightfolks and learning more and
realizing that you probablydon't yet know what you don't
yet know right, and so if youcan flesh that.
The more quickly you can fleshthat out, the more that will
(09:52):
help you make appropriatedecisions in a timely manner.
Right?
And part of that then, inaddition to those quick wins,
more fundamentally, is lookingfor what are those foundational
areas that are going tocontribute to long-term success.
You know, identifying whatthose pillars are.
Part of that, you know we talkabout, is coming in.
Typically, it's really commonthat there's going to be some
(10:12):
mandates and some perspectivesthat might be shared with you
explicitly or implicitly, thathey, it's X, You're coming in,
it's a certain assumption orit's this way, and our
encouragement to folks who arenew in the role, but in general
for all of us, is to questionthose assumptions.
Right, Because the reality isit's very often not as simple as
(10:34):
whatever might appear on thesurface.
And so you know we talk aboutengaging in divergent thinking
first before you engage inconvergent thinking, and by
divergent thinking, that meansopening up the various
possibilities that might exist.
How do you?
Brainstorm is one example ofthat kind of divergent process,
(10:54):
and so there's an appropriatetime for thinking about what are
the different options thatmight be available to us before
we start to converge on oneassumption that we might have
eliminated this whole host ofyou know more engaging options,
or more you know, just thingsthat are going to produce a
better result, if we too quicklyjump to that one conclusion.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
So, Greg, with your background in human resources
and especially the things thatyou've done with mentoring, do
you have any questions forPatrick?
Speaker 1 (11:22):
I have a couple, but one in particular.
So, patrick, when John and I,before we retired, we were still
working in the workforce duringthe pandemic, and so when I
think about some things that youdo in organizational
transformation, changemanagement, executive leadership
, I mean we were still trying todo that kind of work, with some
people working from home andsome people are on a hybrid
schedule.
Whatever Any lessons learnedthat you said, gosh, the
(11:45):
pandemic was a reallychallenging time.
It was challenging for yourindustry in particular.
But any lessons learned thatcame out and said, gosh, we're
better for that, we've done thisbetter because we made it
through the pandemic.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
So it's an interesting question.
I think a couple of things cometo mind.
First of all, people are stillpeople, right, and we still have
a fundamental desire and needfor community, right, and so
during those periods or duringother times of tumult, looking
for ways to create somesemblance of community and
belonging, even if the modalitymay be in a Zoom room, which is
maybe less than ideal in somecontexts, but looking for those
(12:18):
ways to still support that, youknow.
And then I think a couple otherthings that come to mind that
were really key from thatexperience is the need to be
creative and adaptive Right.
Again, we often get acclimatedto doing things a certain way,
and this is a good example.
We make this assumption thatit's always got to be this way
(12:42):
because that's the way we'vealways done it.
If the pandemic taught usnothing else, that that's not
necessarily the case, right, andone of the other things that I
have a personal passion about isreally allowing folks sense of
agency over their own lives tothe fullest extent possible,
right, and that's going to varyin terms of what that looks like
, you know, given people's jobdescriptions and their roles and
(13:05):
the organizational context andso forth, but I think all too
often there are in some culturesand contexts there's this fear
mentality of if we give peopletoo much agency and autonomy
right, that they're not going toproduce the results.
And my brother, who I work within my consulting practice, often
says if we trust people tooverwork in the hours you know
(13:27):
in and after, you know theweekend hours and after hours
and so forth, and overwork there, why does that suddenly change
between the hours of nine tofive, right, and I think the
fundamental message of that isyou know, the more we can trust
people that you know.
Most jobs that wereknowledge-based right, the light
still stayed on and some thingsgot done actually more
effectively.
There's some emerging researchthat suggested for some types of
(13:50):
things there can be greaterproductivity when you don't have
to deal with all the variousdistractions.
So it's finding, like allthings, it's finding things in
balance.
So I think that would beprobably.
The other lesson is I thinkmost of us probably don't want
to have one extreme or the other, but how can we create and
(14:10):
design our own days and weeks asmuch as possible so to the
fullest extent that leaders cansupport agency and their folks'
work?
That's a really powerfuloutcome.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
So a little bit of what happened during the
pandemic, but mostly what Ithink you've dealt with and
promoted things like mentoringand 1871, which I think we
should talk about 1871 a littlebit, but I think mentoring is
the other part of leadershipthat sometimes is missed as a
core requirement of what we needto do to build bench strength.
(14:46):
Maybe you can talk a little bitabout that.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
Yeah, so the 1871 experience you identified for
example, that's one of myvolunteer hats that I wear is
serving as a mentor in the 1871startup ecosystem in the Chicago
area serving as a mentor in the1871 startup ecosystem in the
Chicago area.
So I've worked with a lot ofstartup founders who are just
trying to get their legs underthem as they're starting their
new ventures and so forth, andthis comes back to my sense of
(15:15):
calling to and this may soundtrite, but I want to make the
world a better place.
Ultimately, at the end of theday, most of us do in our own
way, right, way right, and so,for me, one of the ways that
most engages me I just getshared joy from helping people
to be successful in whatevertheir endeavors are right and
simply put, and so that's one ofseveral communities that I've
been involved with.
I think more broadly to yourpoint.
I think, as leaders, it'sincumbent upon us to look for
(15:36):
ways to pay it forward, all theleadership lessons and support
and mentoring that we'vereceived and been the
beneficiaries from those who'vegone before us.
We have a fiduciaryresponsibility, in my opinion,
to pay that forward, and solooking for ways that we can do
that meaningfully, that alignwith our skills and interests
and energies, and that may varyat different chapters of our
(15:57):
life in terms of what that lookslike, but I always encourage
leaders to have that up and thereality is, when we do that,
that also.
This shouldn't be themotivating factor for it, in my
opinion, but there is a sidebenefit that when we give and
volunteer and serve, thatactually tends to make us feel
better as well.
It's one of the best antidotesto when you're feeling down or
have the blues is do somethingfor someone else.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
I always say so true you're feeling down or have the
blues is do something forsomeone else.
I always say so, true.
So the elements in the bookwhich intrigues me what was the
motivating factor that reallycreated the emphasis to write
the book?
Was there an event that reallyhelped?
Speaker 3 (16:34):
It's a great question I don't know that there's one
event necessarily it's probablymore the fact that in our
practice at Luchum Group we doour primary areas of support
providing executive coaching andadvisory support to our clients
and, both in the research andin our experience and practice,
(17:00):
who've who've done exceptionalwork in those areas that we can
learn from.
So we wanted to shine a lightfrom and share those learnings
with others.
And we've also seen we've all,we've all made missteps and
stand on, you know, stood on thelandmines, and so we want to
shine a light on those as welland help folks avoid those where
they can.
So bringing those to lightbecause we want our clients and
(17:21):
everyone out there that we canserve with this information to
be successful in their livesright, and so we want to share
that information.
And we feel like too, if you'resuccessful as a leader, the
profound ripple effects that itcan have on your organization,
those you serve, both as theemployees and the clients you
serve, the customers you have onyour organization, those you
serve, both the employees andthe clients you serve, the
(17:42):
customers you have, et cetera,the mission you're fulfilling
the community ripple effects canbe powerful, for good or not.
We've seen plenty of cases outthere.
Conversely, if you're not doingthat well and not doing that
mindfully, there can be a wholehost of damage that falls, and
so we'd like to be on the sideof the equation that's helping
to make that possible.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
What I found interesting is there's leaders
that work with people andunderstand that their mission is
to work and develop staff, andthere are leaders who are there
because of technical advancementand really haven't made that
connection of what it means tobe an executive and have to
learn a whole new language inorder to make that change.
Now I don't want to name a nameof an executive because that
(18:24):
changes with time, but have younoticed that it's cyclical?
They get it and then at aperiod of time they become
complacent and see that thatwhole element that they had at
the beginning of the process nowhas dwindled away and because
they haven't had a reset,they've lost their emphasis to
try to advance.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Well, and I think you stated maybe another way and
reflect back what I think I'mhearing.
I mean, the reality is thatleadership, like many things, is
a skill.
It's a learned skill that youneed to practice and, again, it
will manifest differently fordifferent folks in terms of how
they practice their leadership.
For some, certain aspects of itmay come more naturally than
(19:04):
others.
Right, particularly if you hada background that is, more as an
individual contributor orsomething where you didn't have
to worry about other people inthat regard right.
So that's going to have a hostof a learning curve associated
with that.
The good news is, because it's alearning curve, it can be
learned right.
And so if you can approach itwith a learner's mindset as
opposed to a fixed trait mindset, saying I'm either good at
(19:27):
leadership or I'm not, that's amisnomer.
So sometimes I'll coach onmindset for folks if they come
and say that's just not my cupof tea.
Well, maybe, maybe not right.
It's one thing to say if wedon't enjoy certain aspect of
our responsibility to be mindfulto that.
But one of the questions Ioften ask folks to think about
is it because we're goingthrough that initial learning
(19:47):
phase, because there's always,you know, as, as Brene Brown and
the military often say,sometimes you just have to
embrace the suck when you'relearning and going through that
you know, that phase and it'slike, okay, you know we're going
to feel awkward, we're going tomake these mistakes and that's
okay, it's part of the process.
(20:09):
But if you can learn to enjoythat process and learn to enjoy
what's, on the other side ofthat that can be very powerful
and transformational.
So those are a couple ofthoughts that I'll offer there.
As far as the learningdevelopment, if you will, Does
that spark any follow-ups foryou there?
Speaker 2 (20:18):
It does.
It does, and one of the thingsthat comes to mind for me was a
phrase that I got from Dr Durstfrom his MBR series we are
responsible for everything thatwe do, whether we like the
results or not, and I've lookedat a few of the articles that
you've written trying toencourage people to be proactive
and get engaged.
Any motivational phrase thatkind of rings the bell that
(20:42):
helps people to have like afocus moment.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
No, it's a really good question.
I don't know if they have aphrase, necessarily, but I think
the one thing that I oftencoach on is, as you alluded to,
is that we often can't controlwhat happens to us, but we can
control or influence, or learnto control and train.
How do we respond to that?
Right, and that starts with themindfulness and, you know,
(21:05):
sometimes stepping back from thesituation, and that's that's
one of the many skills that youcan learn as leaders to take a
step back.
You know talking about.
You know one of the one of themetaphors we talked about.
You know getting on the balcony, the proverbial balcony, so you
can look at things from a newperspective and ask yourself
what is going on thereobjectively, because that can be
really helpful.
You made a comment a moment agothat struck something for me,
(21:28):
and that's the reality is thatwe are always learning.
It's not like you ever arrivefor any skill set.
It's not like you don't.
If you don't use it, you'regoing to lose it, right?
So, even if you are, you know,if there is such a thing as
practicing good leadership, it'sthe kind of thing you always
have to be mindful.
There's always going to be newcurveballs and new challenges,
so it's never like we suddenlyarrive and we can just rest on
(21:49):
our laurels.
It's continually something wehave to work at.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
So you're working with a co-author, and that
cooperation is an exercise ofleadership too.
Maybe you can talk about thedynamics of working and
developing something that youboth put your name on, and how
that partnership works and thatinteraction works.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Yeah, and I think that's a good example where
there is some very deep trustand rapport that we've built up
over the years.
There's recognition of thedifferent skill sets and
interests and energies that weeach have.
I often say that Melissa is amuch more prolific writer.
I mean she could put like Iconsider myself a decent writer,
but it takes a lot more effortfor me to get words on the page.
(22:31):
I consider myself a bettereditor than a writer.
I often tend to be verbose aswell.
Melissa has a gift to just cutto the point, for example, and
put things out, and so there isa good complement of gifts and I
think that's a good metaphorfor many of us.
When you can look for you knowhow can we look for ways that we
(22:51):
can each leverage our ownstrengths?
Drucker has a great quote thatI'll paraphrase, if I get it
close here.
He says the central task ofleadership is to manage
strengths such that weaknessesare irrelevant.
I paraphrase it a little bit,but that's a really powerful
tenet that if we focus,sometimes we get so mired on.
Well, I'm not good at X, so Igot to work up X, and there's a
(23:13):
time and a place to work onshoring up our deficits, for
sure, right At the same time, ifyou have a gift of strength,
sometimes doubling down on thoseis going to have a much better
ROI for you and the way you leadas well.
So there's something to be saidfor that focus there too.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
So another element that just rings as we're
speaking, the strength alsocomes from your parents and from
those influences and you've hadthe experience of working with
and learning from, I should say,your parents maybe a little of
the background on how theydeveloped your starting point
(23:51):
and how they helped you as yougrew and went along your career.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
I appreciate that my parents were very inspirational
for me on multiple levels.
My dad was an iconic teacher of47 years.
He was one of those teachersthat everyone remembers him and
I could tell you story afterstory there.
So it was fun for me.
I had the distinct pleasure ofco-teaching with him in my early
(24:17):
career but he influenced me ina number of ways to see the way
he modeled.
I often see the way I coachright.
I can see my dad in those kindof exchanges that I have his
deep care for those that heserved in that capacity.
And my mom was a gerontologicalresearcher.
She dedicated her work toAlzheimer's caregiver the
caregivers of Alzheimer'spatients.
(24:39):
She run the Rosalind CarterFoundation Award for her
advancement of caregiversresearch One of her favorite
distinctions there.
She's well-published.
She led the PhD program ofnursing at Rush during her
career.
Doesn't discriminate, sheherself has Alzheimer's now but
(25:06):
she has been an inspiration.
We often joke she was one of myearly teachers of my writing
back in high school.
She'd often review my papersand we had a lot of friction
there, but she made me a betterwriter and I had the distinct
pleasure on the back end of mycareer here with my mom.
She was able to serve as aspecial advisor on my
dissertation work.
She was actually one of myfirst employers, if you will.
I got to code her dissertationon Hope back in the very early
(25:31):
80s, and so that was one of myfirst jobs, and so that was a
very formative time for me aswell, in addition to going and
helping my dad prepare for allhis students.
So both of them were veryformative in my life, for sure,
and in terms of instilling forme the value of service so much
(26:04):
making something or producingsomething or getting through the
shift.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
It was developing the people that are there and
having the chance to actuallyengage on their dreams, their
wishes, their ambitions.
Try to foster some other kindof new thoughts, new
opportunities to think out ofthe box thoughts.
(26:26):
New opportunities to think outof the box, working and
understanding the ways that yourfather challenged students.
Your mom worked with teachersand with the medical world and
it's a tough world to deal within the medical side.
Those are admirable teachersthat you've been able to deal
with.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
And for me, we underestimate the impact
sometimes that we can have onfolks.
You know even one conversationsometimes.
You know maybe a conversationin a coaching context, for
example, and say, hey, this isso helpful, blah, blah, blah,
and I did this and that, and Imay have even forgotten that,
right, but it was somethingimpactful.
And so it reminds me of thepower and importance of us to be
(27:04):
mindful.
We're not perfect, right, butwe should be really mindful of
how we wield that power and thatresponsibility in our lives,
because we do make a very bigimpact, and so I consider that a
very significant responsibilitythat we all hold as leaders.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
So just to change the subject just for a second,
you've also written a lot ofarticles.
I found the one you didn't comethis far to only come this far.
I love the opening phrase, thepart that I found that is
consistent that I have foundboth frustrating and encouraging
is you talked about thePygmalion effect and how that
(27:41):
affects people.
Maybe you can expand a littlebit on that.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
The big alien effect for those who aren't familiar is
basically that it's theself-fulfilling prophecy, in
other words, right, and so therewas actually a research study.
I don't have it at myfingertips, I think it was in
the late 60s.
It's not ethical now, right,but they had basically two
groups within a classroom andthey said, said, you know,
basically, they told teachersthese are your gifted kids and
these are your not gifted kids,based upon some false test
results.
And what they found, basically,is that it became a
(28:12):
self-fulfilling prophecy thatthe students who were gifted you
know, supposedly, quote unquotewere treated differently, you
know, and that became the youknow, they rose to those
expectations and, conversely,those that were not fell to
those expectations.
Right, so you know, that'scertainly the.
There are some significantimplications from a leadership
(28:33):
perspective that if you come atsomeone from a, I'm going to set
the bar up here and I'mexpecting you to meet these
expectations, right, that has adifferent impact than trying to
be controlling and worryingabout all the.
It comes back to the earlierdiscussion in COVID.
Right, we saw a lot offear-based management and
worrying oh, people aren't doingtheir jobs and they're this and
that, and suddenly, in thatfear and insecurity, we clamp
(28:54):
down and we try and control andthat actually works against you.
And then people feel you know,they react and resist that when
the reality, if you trust themlike they trust them, like
you've always trusted them to dotheir job, presumably right, If
you hired, well, they should dotheir job for you, right.
Let them do their work.
And so that's a really powerfulconcept for us to be aware of
as leaders as well.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Yeah, anybody can bully, anybody can criticize.
It's so hard to actuallyencourage people, especially
when it's a dire kind ofenvironment.
Look for the successes, takethe small steps.
Recognize the small steps, allthose things to try to build.
One of my favorites is a glassis half full or half empty, or
(29:35):
it could be murky, or maybe it'shalf full of vodka.
You don't know what you'redealing with, but it's how you
perceive it.
It's half full, it's not halfempty, and it has an impact in
terms of how other people seemanagement and how they reflect
it.
They're wonderful mirrors ifyou don't do a decent job of
setting it up and understandingthe impact that you have.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
And it's so much more fun to lead that way too.
I mean simply put right, I'dmuch rather have that kind of
energy right.
So again, it's liberating whenyou can allow yourself to
practice that.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Greg, do you have any other questions?
For Patrick, some years ago wewere trying to work ourselves
out of a job right.
Teach managers, preparemanagers.
They could do the things we'retrying to help them with, but
the services and the expertiseyou provide make them even
better.
Help the organization getbetter.
So please keep it rolling.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
Yeah no I appreciate the opportunity to speak with
you guys and if I can help outof your listeners, they're
welcome to reach out and I'mhappy to have conversation with
them.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Why don't you give us a little bit of your contact
information for them to have?
Speaker 3 (30:42):
So you could check by .
My website is adlucmgroupcom.
A-d-l-u-c-m-g-r-o-u-pcom, andthere you know we've got.
You can do a free strategysession with me.
I've got some resources forteam assessments and so forth.
You can sign up for our blogarticles.
Those are all free resources,depending on when you're
listening to this.
We'll have information aboutour book out there, which will
be forthcoming in short order.
(31:03):
Or you can check me out onLinkedIn Patrick Faran,
f-a-r-r-a-n.
Drop me a note in the LinkedInIf you send me a connection
request.
Let me know.
You heard us on this podcast,so I don't think you're spam and
I'll be happy to connect withfolks.
I definitely like to.
You know I always want to payit forward and serve the
networking community, so happyto make connections for anyone
(31:23):
who finds this meaningful orhelpful.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
That's awesome.
Well, thank you, patrick.
I really appreciate it.
It was a lot of insight and Ithink it's very helpful for our
leadership approach.
You're listening to our podcast.
It's available on Apple, google, spotify and other formats.
We've talked about Dr Durson atsuccessgrowthacademycom and if
you want to get in contact withGreg or I, you can contact us at
(31:48):
authorjawcom.
Music has been brought to youby my grandson, so, thank you,
we want to hear from you and weappreciate your input, but most
of all, thank you, patrick, weappreciate it, it's been a
pleasure.
(32:09):
And Greg.
Thank you, patrick, weappreciate it.
And greg, thank you.
Thanks, john, as always nexttime.
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