Sometimes couples choose to divorce. Though we are super pro making the relationship work, and by work we mean Thrive, sometimes couples decide they’ve invested enough into the relationship and prefer to take a different route to find their happiness.
We support our couples in the decisions they make for themselves, their family, and their life, and we help them through whatever transitions they find themselves in. Through working on the relationship, they might realize that they don’t prefer to stay together after all and choose to pursue separating instead.
If this happens while working with us, we guide them in having the most beautiful divorce process they can manage. Our goal is to minimize the heartache and trauma of this experience for everyone involved, and to assist them transition into a new life situation that works better for them and their family. We encourage divorcing with the spirit of ease, compassion and generosity.
In today’s episode I’m excited to have a conversation with Glenn Dornfeld, an experienced mediator, about the different options people have to pursue getting divorced and he nuances of getting divorced through an empowering process that leads to satisfying settlements with ease. Hope you enjoy it!
…………………………………………………
🌟ABOUT OUR GUEST:
Glenn E. Dornfeld, Esq., is a mediator, trainer/mentor, and family/divorce attorney with a solo mediation and legal practice in Manhattan, serving both New York and New Jersey through mediating divorce cases. He is frequently asked to teach and coach mediators in various settings, is on law councils’ joint Ethics Committees, has chaired or co-chaired many mediation annual conferences, and regularly presents at them. Glenn has been awarded the Abel Award for service to the field of family and divorce mediation. You can find him at DivorceMediationAttorney.com.
Find him also here:
LinkedIn
Gift from Glenn:
Aside from the free initial consultation, should a couple decide to work with Glenn he’ll give them their first hour also at no charge when they mention Emma and this Podcast Episode.
…………………………………………………
🌟MORE ON THIS EPISODE:
Watch the YouTube Video!
More about the podcast on our Podcast Page
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DISCLAIMER: This content is meant to support your Journey and not as a replacement for professional assistance. Additionally, the ideas and resources provides by our guests are their ideas and recommendations alone and not necessarily a reflection of the host’s.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Emma Viglucci (00:07):
Hello lovelies, Welcome to another episode.
I am so excited for today'stopic and guest.
We're going to be talking aboutmediation, and my guest is a
mediator.
He sheds some light as to whatare the different options that
people have if they'reconsidering divorce from
litigation to negotiation, tocollaborative divorce, to
(00:27):
mediation so that you couldchoose for yourself what might
feel as the best fit for you.
We also talk aboutmisconceptions about mediation
what a good mediation processlooks like, the difference
between an experienced and goodmediator versus one that's not
so experienced, what the processmight look like, how Glenn does
it, what his process is likeand also what are some different
(00:52):
ways to break impasses anddifferent ways to deal with
power imbalances.
It is a super interview andconversation.
We also highlight what a good,beautiful, successful mediation
process looks like at the end ofthe day.
Stay tuned, you're highlightwhat a good, beautiful,
successful mediation processlooks like at the end of the day
.
Stay tuned, You're in for atreat.
Let me read you his bio andthen we'll say hello to Glenn.
(01:21):
Glenn Dornfeld is a mediator,trainer, mentor and family
divorce attorney with a solomediation and legal practice in
Manhattan.
Almost all of his cases aredivorce mediations.
He also handles matrimonialnegotiations but does not
litigate.
He is frequently asked to teachand coach mediators in various
settings and has presentedmultiple times at both the Bar
(01:44):
Association of the City of NewYork and the Courthouse of the
Supreme Court of the County ofNew York.
Glenn is a past president ofboth the New York State Council
on Divorce Mediation and theFamily and Divorce Mediation
Council of Greater New York andhe is on those councils joint
ethics committee.
He has chaired or co-chairedmany conferences for ACR's
(02:07):
family section and NYS CDM andhas served on APFM's conference
committee several times andregularly presents a mediation
conferences.
He has been awarded the AbelAward for service to the field
of family and divorce mediationand Glenn has graduated summa
(02:28):
cum laude from PrincetonUniversity and received his law
degree from NYU School of Law.
He is admitted to practice lawin New York and New Jersey
Without further ado.
Let's say hello to Glenn.
Hi, Glenn, how are you doingtoday?
So good to have you.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (02:46):
It's great to be here, Emma.
Thank you so much.
I'm doing great.
I hope you're doing great too.
Emma Viglucci (02:51):
I am Thank you so much.
I'm so looking forward to thisconversation.
I want to hook up our audiencewith all things mediation so
that they happen to go down thispath of choosing to not be
together any longer, that theydo it in the best way possible
for them, and so I think thatyou're the best person to talk
to that.
(03:11):
So that's why I wanted to haveyou on.
Yeah, you're welcome.
So the first question that Iwant to ask you, so that the
audience understands, is what isthe difference for somebody
who's getting divorced betweengetting divorced through
litigation, negotiation,collaborative divorce or
mediation, like we're talkingabout today?
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (03:34):
Okay, so the traditional way of divorcing
is two people hiring lawyersand everybody goes to court and
that's just the default.
That has been the way thatpeople divorced for decades.
Um, that gets expensive andcomplicated and it heightens the
um, the conflict between people, because each it drives them
(03:57):
apart.
Each, each person has to saysome extreme things to try to
win.
Then the other person saysextreme things too, and the kids
are in the middle and it canget real ugly.
As everybody knows, you hearabout awful divorces all the
time.
So that's a litigation.
(04:18):
Negotiation is the way mostdivorces are actually resolved,
most divorces.
Even if someone starts adivorce in court, most of the
time they settle the casewithout each person having to
appear in court and dodepositions and rehearse their
testimony and all that stuff.
(04:39):
Usually, somewhere along theline, the lawyers will say okay,
we can settle this case.
Sometimes more quickly,sometimes after a longer amount
of time.
Divorces can take two or threeyears in some cases to resolve,
which is really bad becausepeople's lives are on hold for
that whole period of time.
Yeah, then there's a.
(05:02):
I'll talk about mediation last.
Then there's a I'll talk aboutmediation last.
There's a process calledcollaborative divorce, in which
people agree to kind of walk thehigh road and they agree not to
take any nasty steps andeverybody signs kind of a
contract on what they're, whatthey're not going to do.
(05:24):
And if anybody violates thatcontract then by the contract
they all have to fire theirlawyers and start again, which
is why there's some kind ofenforcement to their agreement
to play fair and to not do nastythings and to share information
(05:44):
and stuff like that.
Nice, yeah.
So collaborative is better inmany cases than litigation.
The downside is it can getreally expensive.
It's kind of an involved process.
Sometimes people bring in awhole team involved.
There's a therapist on the team, there's a therapist on the
(06:05):
team, there's an accountant onthe team, there is a
collaborative kind of organizeron the team, and so because of
that you're paying a lot ofpeople a lot of the time.
And then there's mediation, andin mediation what people do is
they hire a neutral party and Iplay that role many times, yes
(06:30):
and the mediator helps them workout the terms of what will be a
divorce settlement, and they'repaying one person to do that
rather than each having theirown attorneys, and a good
mediator will take them at theirschedule and help them find
(06:51):
their path through, rather thanan attorney saying, well, I
can't really deal with this fora month or whatever, and then
the other attorney's on vacationand then the judge is on
vacation.
And then you know, who knowswhat happens, and then the judge
is on vacation and then youknow who knows what happens.
So it's a very direct processand it gets really to the issues
that they have to address,rather than them positioning or
(07:16):
making threats or having to saythings that aren't necessarily
true, as people do in litigation.
It deals with the real problemsand hopefully gets them to an
answer.
Emma Viglucci (07:29):
Yeah, I love how you're describing all the
different options that peoplehave and mediation, which that's
what you do.
I love that option.
It's so streamlined.
I actually was honored towitness one of your sessions in
the past and you're fabulous atit.
(07:50):
And it's such a beautifulprocess in that it takes into
consideration the people.
It's not just the papers andthe motions and the numbers and
the things and the other thingsand everybody tries to win and
up the other and I just.
It gets so nasty.
So, observing that was sopretty, it almost felt like I
was in a therapy session, whichis nice.
(08:10):
I mean, you have both.
You hold both people.
Both people are right, bothpeople need to count, both
people right.
So how do we do the best forboth?
And that's so nice, as opposedto like trying to up each other
Sometimes I call it atherapeutic approach to a legal
(08:31):
result.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (08:31):
I love that you should trademark that.
Emma Viglucci (08:32):
Yeah, because I'm not dealing with all of the
stuff they don't have to dealwith.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (08:36):
It's like let's get down to the point, and
I will gently redirect them towhat we're talking about.
If they go off on a tangent orif they start having an argument
, that's not directly what we'retalking about.
And sometimes I even point outto them you know, you can pay me
to listen to you argue aboutwhat you did three years ago,
(09:01):
and that's fine with me.
If you do that, you're going topay me, or you can't.
We can talk about how muchchild support would be.
And when I do it in a gentleway, I'm not shaming them, but
I'm reminding them that we'rehere for a purpose and also that
this is costing something.
And very often they say youknow, you're right, let's talk
about I'm sorry about what I wassaying, let's talk about this.
Emma Viglucci (09:22):
That's fabulous, and I actually witnessed that
and I was so impressed by howtactfully you deliver that
message and cut right through,because in therapy, we are there
to talk about all the things.
The price is to see like, nope,we're not doing that, we're
staying here and I was like, ohcool, that's good and people
actually listen Right.
And it's like I mean I saysimilar things like oh cool,
(09:44):
that's good, and people actuallylisten right.
And it's like I mean I saysimilar things Like listen, you
guys could fight and we coulduse a time like that, but you
don't need me for that.
You could do that on your own,you know.
So let's do something different.
I say that all the time.
So it makes complete sense thatlet's stay focused, let's take
care of you the right way, Likeyou could do this funky business
somewhere else, right, itdoesn't serve you.
Beautiful, Thank you.
(10:06):
Yeah, so, Glenn, tell me whatare some misconceptions that
people have about mediation andhow they might look at it?
Crooked.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (10:14):
Okay, A couple of things.
Sometimes people think thatmediation is a process only to
get them to get back together toreconcile, oh interesting.
They think of it as if it iscouples therapy, which it has a
little bit of a feel for it likethat, but it's very much.
(10:34):
It's really whatever they wantand if they want to divorce, or
if one person wants to divorce,the other person ultimately has
to accept that and it may takelonger or may take shorter, yeah
, but if I'm going to help themget divorced, then that's what
we're there for.
So it's not a reconciliationprocess Very good.
(10:56):
Another misconception peopleoften have is that they have to
be friendly.
They have to.
You know, mediation is only forpeople where they're agreeable
and there are no arguments andthey're on the same page.
And I'm happy to take caseslike that, of course.
(11:18):
But it's not really where Iprove myself, it's not really
where I give people value.
It's kind of.
I think of it like being adentist, like if all I did was
cleanings, I wouldn't.
I'm not, I'm not working hardto be a dentist, I'm not keeping
in practice.
But if people come in and theyneed a root canal and they need,
they have six cavities that Ihave to drill in one day.
(11:39):
That's where I'm.
I'm, you know, showing my valueas a dentist and so as a
mediator.
I mean, I've worked with peoplewhere they threw books at each
other in the middle of a session.
I worked with people where Ihad to pull the man off of the
woman.
They were sitting on a couchand threw each other and he, all
of a sudden was strangling her.
(11:59):
I had to pull him and it's allgood.
Emma Viglucci (12:03):
You know, I mean, I'm not happy that that that he
reacted that way.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (12:07):
But they certainly don't have to be
friendly with each other andobviously, if there's a divorce,
in many situations one of themis going to be angry, and so and
it's fine I take what comes inand I help them where they are.
I meet my clients where theyare.
Emma Viglucci (12:26):
That's terrific, so I really appreciate that.
Second one, because I thinkthat that's a real misconception
and I think I'm a little atfault of buying into that one
myself that for the mediationprocess to work well, or I
wouldn't necessarily recommendit for people who are being like
really nutty, that they'rebeing so nutty, how you know and
(12:49):
I use that word so lightlyright, so no, no, I said to
anybody coming from a therapistpeople are nutty but but yeah,
people could get out there,right, and so it's hard to think
that that couple could benefitfrom mediation and maybe that
that the two out there couples,couple could benefit from
mediation, and maybe that thatthe two out there couples might
not benefit from this and maybeyou could talk to that.
But I appreciate the point thatyou don't have to be so
(13:10):
friendly for this to work.
You could still have animosity,you could still have anger, you
could still have things goingon.
You're going through a divorce,you're going to have stuff.
You could still benefit fromthis process.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (13:19):
so I appreciate that they have a
common interest in if the heatis high between them.
They have a common interest ingetting done.
Yes, they even though theymight hope that the other
something bad happens to theother person at this time and
hopefully they get past thateventually.
Yeah, they both want to.
(13:39):
Their lives are are awful atthis point.
They both want to move throughit and so I can say, okay, I
know that you're furious becausethe other one had an affair or
whatever you know, so you wantto get divorced.
So let's get you divorced.
So let's talk about who's goingto have the kids when.
Because you need to do that toget divorced Sometimes.
Emma Viglucci (14:03):
I don't do this often.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (14:04):
But sometimes people can't even be
working with me at the same time, and so I'll do what's called
shuttle mediation.
I'll meet with one of them,then the other.
It's a little bit less direct,a little bit less efficient, but
sometimes that's the only waythat they can cooperate in the
process.
And so I'm taking the meat ofwhat they're saying and I'm
(14:28):
taking out, like all theemotional content, like the
person might say he's a son of abitch and he did this to me and
that's why I want a milliondollars.
Emma Viglucci (14:38):
And so I will talk to the other person and say
, okay, they want a milliondollars.
Right, you deliver a cleanrequest, Right, exactly, and so
it cuts that out and they canrespond million dollars.
You deliver a clean request,Right exactly.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (14:46):
And so it cuts that out and they can
respond to it.
And the other person might sayyou know, I can't believe
they're asking for that kind ofmoney, because they did this and
this to me.
I'll give them $750,000.
Emma Viglucci (14:58):
So then I go to the first person and say, okay
he said $750,000.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (15:02):
And so I'm cutting out all of the stuff
that makes it harder for themanyway yeah, perfect, that's
beautiful and I love thelanguage shuttle mediation.
Emma Viglucci (15:13):
That makes a lot of sense.
Sometimes we do that in couplestherapy.
Sometimes the sessions are sointense there's you can be
productive like we're just likeI can't even speak, and I
consider myself to be a prettygood therapist.
I mean, I have a lot of yearsunder my belt and I have a very
high tense couples, butsometimes it's just like dudes,
we can't get anything done.
You know, let me meet with youseparately so we could get some
headways, and then let's comeback together.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (15:34):
So it happens Exactly the same thing,
yeah totally.
Emma Viglucci (15:36):
I hear you Beautiful.
So are couples that shouldn'tgo to mediation.
You're just like I don't knowif I'm your person or that the
mediation process wouldn'tnecessarily serve them.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (15:52):
One kind of person who shouldn't go to
mediation is if they don't wanta fair process, if they don't
want to disclose all that theyhave, because it's all about
open disclosure.
If they want to try to discloseall that they have, because
it's all about open disclosure.
If they want to try to get awaywith something, they shouldn't
go to mediation.
If they want to punish theirspouse, for whatever reason,
(16:18):
they shouldn't go to mediation,because that's just not what the
process is.
Because that's just not whatthe process is.
If they're not entering in goodfaith, they should not go to
mediation.
But I work with people who haveattorneys all the time and I
always encourage them to consultwith attorneys as they need to
throughout the process.
(16:39):
So even if people have tons ofmoney or have lots of legal
questions, it's fine for them tocome to mediation and they can.
They can consult as they needto and sometimes they bring
their attorney into the session.
That's fine with me, as long asas long as the other person
knows that they're going to theother.
You know, as long as person Bknows person A is bringing an
(17:02):
attorney, person B might alsowant to bring their attorney.
Emma Viglucci (17:05):
That's right.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (17:06):
So, but yeah, if they want to, if
they're trying to just get overon the other person or get over
on the system, if they don'twant to, if they don't want an
honest or fair process,mediation is not for them.
Emma Viglucci (17:18):
I love that distinction because then, yeah,
you can still be angry, you canstill be hurt, you can still be
all the things, but you stillwant to do right by the other
person.
You still want to hold highstandards, take the high road,
do the right right by by yourlegacy of this marriage and your
children and everything else.
You don't want to be in courtthrowing your money away,
spending a gazillion millionyears there, right?
(17:39):
So if you, if you want to do,do it the right way, then you do
it nicely, like this.
But, like you're saying, if youjust want to fight to win
because the other person is ajerk or whatever, an SOB, and
you hate their guts, then thisis potentially not right.
If you're out for blood, thenthis is not the process.
Very nice, right.
So you could be angry and upset, but as long as you still want
(18:01):
a fair process, you could haveall your feelings.
It's not about that, terr, butas long as you still want a fair
process, you could have allyour feelings.
It's not about that Terrific,Awesome.
So can you share a little bitabout, then, what the process
looks like?
How would you get the couplestarted?
What should they expect fromthis process?
What it kind of looks like sothey have a feel for what to
expect if they were to engage insomething like this?
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (18:22):
Sure, before my first session with a
couple, I will send them acouple of documents so that they
can prepare for the session.
I don't want them to focus toomuch on having to do a lot of
homework before our firstsession, because sometimes
people freak out or sometimesthey'll spend 10, 15, 20 hours
preparing and a lot of thepreparation will be wasted
(18:45):
because we might not ever get tothat.
So at a first session, before afirst session, I send them a
couple of documents to help themprepare and I try to put them
at ease so that they can come inwithout freaking out.
Good, at a first session we'reusually looking to kind of
establish the guidelines whatare we going to do there?
(19:08):
Most of my couples will say atthe first session I'm really
nervous, I've never done thisbefore, right, most people say
that, right, and of course mostpeople have never divorced
before and they don't know thatmuch about mediation.
There are misleading depictionsof mediation in the movies and
(19:28):
on TV and you know they don'tknow what to expect.
Yeah, so I like to say that atthe first session we're looking
at the forest and then later onwe'll look at the trees.
So what are the?
What are the things that they?
What are the questions thatthey have to answer?
So they have to answer.
Maybe are they going to keepthe apartment or are they going
(19:49):
to sell it.
Another question is if thereare kids, who are the kids going
to be with when?
Emma Viglucci (19:58):
You know what's really interesting.
So obviously you work with newyork city people.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (20:02):
Because you said apartment instead of a
house, yes and of course, housestoo, and some people have
multiple properties I workedwith.
I worked with a couple where,um, the husband would made six
million dollars a year, you know.
He's like when they hadproperties all over the place
and who's getting this, the onewith the ski house, and who's
(20:23):
getting the Manhattan one, andwho's getting the one in Puerto
Rico, and you know.
So, yeah, whatever comes in.
So, anyway, the first sessionI'm kind of setting the
guidelines and kind ofcollecting information from them
to help structure the processfor the next session and the
session after that.
So, okay, you're going to needto bring me your retirement
(20:46):
statement so we can work on that.
The next session, fine, Okay,good.
We're not going to necessarilydo it at a first session, but
you'll share reports and if youneed my help, I'm happy to
provide it.
I encourage them to do as muchas possible between them.
Yes, good If they can, and somecouples can get a lot of work
(21:08):
done between them.
Some couples can't do anythingand some couples can deal with
certain issues and not otherissues.
Emma Viglucci (21:15):
Like they can deal with the kids but not the
money.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (21:18):
Or they can work out the residents, but
not child support.
So whatever they can work outmakes the process quicker and
cheaper.
And, most importantly to meeven though not necessarily to
them, most importantly to me I'mhelping them model that they
(21:40):
can work on things going forward.
Because they're going todivorce and they're going to
leave my you know I'm going tosend them a divorce judgment
months later and then they'regoing to live another 5, 10, 20,
30, 40, 50 years.
I mean, if they have young kids, they're going to have to be at
college graduations, they'regoing to have to be at bedside,
(22:02):
somebody's going to get sick,and so I'm modeling for them
that they can work out, they canhave a conversation, even if
there are certain hot buttonissues, and so I don't tell them
that that's what I'm doing forthem, because that's not why
they're there, but I'm trying tokind of pattern that for them
(22:22):
and you know, at the end I mightsay look at that, you figured
out how to sell the housebetween you.
You didn't need my help greatsuper you know what?
Emma Viglucci (22:30):
I would offer that because I mean I offer it
when people might get to thisplace.
I say to them listen, whetheryou continue together or not,
you still want to be in goodstanding.
You have children.
You're going to be in eachother's lives for a long time.
So let's figure this out,regardless of your status and
what you choose to do at the endof the day, right?
So let's figure out how youguys work together, so for sure.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (22:52):
I sometimes mention that but I try
to be really subtle and gentlewith that, because I find that
when my clients think that Ihave an agenda, sometimes they
don't buy into that agenda orthey're not ready to buy into it
.
Emma Viglucci (23:07):
And if I say that , one of them might say I don't
want to talk about what we're.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (23:10):
I don't want to talk about ever being in
the same room with this person,so I need to, I need to be
really gentle and subtle ondoing that.
So I lay the groundwork, but I,I don't.
Emma Viglucci (23:23):
I don't push any message and that's fair, because
by the time they have gotten toyou, like it's a very delicate
situation and we want people tobe engaged and be as amicable as
possible to the degree thatthey can.
So, like doing any maneuveringmight feel weird to them and
then they might not necessarilystay engaged.
I hear you, that's perfect.
Yeah, very good.
(23:43):
So what are some of the thingsthat people address?
So you mentioned child support.
You mentioned properties,finances, custody, yeah, so what
are the things?
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (23:56):
Yeah, I don't want to go into a lot of
detail because it's not going tobe that interesting for your
podcast audience, but the fourmain topics are who are the kids
going to be with when, and thatgets called, in legal terms,
custody and visitation.
Emma Viglucci (24:14):
Right.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (24:16):
What are you going to do about supporting
the kids, which is called childsupport?
Is there going to be alimony,which is also called spousal
support, also spousalmaintenance, and if so, what are
the conditions, how much, when?
What ends spousal support?
And what are you going to doabout dividing property and
debts?
And that's something reallyimportant not to forget about.
(24:37):
So those are the four maintopics.
And then there are smaller onesthat kind of run through those.
There's like insurance.
It could be insurance on a car,which is kind of property
related.
It could be health insurancefor the kids, which is kind of
child support related.
So there's insurance andthere's taxes we have to deal
(24:59):
with.
Who's going to file, how?
How are you going to file?
You're going to keep staymarried so you can file a joint
return.
Some people it's veryadvantageous to stay married for
a little bit longer so they canfile joint returns.
Yep, um, and those are reallythe main issues, and sometimes
people bring up random stuffthat they want included.
(25:21):
But sometimes they want aclause, a non-disparagement
clause, where they say you know,each person agrees that they're
not going to tell their friendsabout what happened between
them and they're not going topublish anything.
Sometimes somebody is a bloggerwho can get nasty, and so you
(25:43):
know somebody might say I knowyou're going to.
As soon as this is done, you'regoing to start blogging about me
.
Emma Viglucci (25:49):
A YouTuber.
Yeah, you have to agree not todo that, yeah, exactly yeah.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (25:56):
So anything they bring in I'm happy
to deal with, of course, butthose are the main ones.
Emma Viglucci (26:03):
Okay, good, good.
So what things do you find thattrip people up?
So you mentioned a few thingsalready, like what creates
impasses, where do people get,like they start butting heads
and stuff.
And then what would somebody anexpert like yourself and who's
a good mediator and stuff andthen what would somebody an
expert like yourself and who's agood mediator do to be able to
(26:23):
resolve that and to help themthrough, navigate that and pass
through?
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (26:29):
That's actually a great question.
I'm working now with a couplewhere the wife has a lot of
family money and the husband isasking for a fair amount of
spousal support.
And the wife is furious.
(26:52):
She feels that she has beensupporting him for years and she
doesn't want to support himanymore.
And the husband feels he'sentitled under law to what he's
asking for and has in factlowered what he's asking for
just to kind of get to a deal.
(27:13):
So there are emotionalresentments and blockages of the
process, like she could easilyif she wanted to she could
easily give him what he's askingfor and be done with the
(27:34):
process.
I'm not saying that she should,but she could.
It's a choice that she couldmake.
Saying that she should, right,but she could, it's a choice
that she could make right.
And he has pointed out a coupleof times that if he, if he gave
, if she gave him what she'sasking for, she would not ever
feel the difference because ofher finances.
But she's saying he's notentitled and other things
(27:56):
happened between them and sothis emotional stuff gets in the
way sometimes of them coming toa deal.
And so with this couple I havebeen, like I said before, I've
been doing shuttle mediation,talking to one and the other,
and I've gotten them a lotcloser.
I haven't yet gotten them to adeal yet, but the distance
(28:18):
between them is now about afifth of what the distance was
when I first started with them.
So they're much closer, butthey're both getting close to a
resistance point where they'resaying I'm not moving anymore,
so I don't know if it'll resolve, but um, so that's one of the
(28:39):
things I do is I try to becauseof the hot buttons between them.
I've done shuttle and I'vetried to get them closer and I
have and I may.
Another thing I may propose tothem is that they each are
coming in saying that theirlawyers are telling them that my
position is correct, right, and, and so what I may, yeah.
(29:03):
So what I may do next is say canI have a mediation session with
your lawyers?
Because that way the lawyerscan hear what each other is
saying, instead of it being atelephone game, where the lawyer
allegedly tells the client thisand then the client tells me
that, and then I tell it to theother person.
If the lawyers get together,maybe I can cut through the
(29:26):
remaining resistance.
Emma Viglucci (29:29):
Yeah, that's excellent, unless the other
lawyers have taken it less thanlonger.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (29:35):
We might find out.
Emma Viglucci (29:36):
Yeah.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (29:39):
Another idea I have with them is we can
also go to.
There are retired judges whosometimes give neutral opinions.
So another thing I might dowith them to help them, because
neither of them wants to go tocourt.
It would take years, it wouldeat up a ton of money half a
million dollars probably inlegal fees, and it's just.
(30:03):
It would be horrible for them.
They have kids.
Kids are kind of older, butthey're still kids, and so I
might just encourage them to geta neutral opinion that would
not be binding on them.
They can still roll the diceand go to a judge, but at least
it may be helpful to them toknow what a judge who's dealt
(30:25):
with matrimonials before wouldsay about this.
And one of them might well befind out.
Oh my God, my lawyer is givingme bad information and I'm going
to lose if I go to court.
Maybe I want to settle.
Emma Viglucci (30:41):
Oh, how wonderful .
I love that.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (30:43):
I'm always trying for different ways to
solve the problem and remove theimpasse, depending on what's
presented to me in a givensituation.
Emma Viglucci (30:54):
Yeah, that's so interesting.
So I had a couple that was verysimilar to the couple that
you're describing.
I actually thought of them assoon as you brought it.
I'm like, oh, I wonder ifthat's them.
Um, very similar.
Like the woman had the moneyand the guys wants part of it
and she's like that's not yourmoney, like the whole thing.
So I understand that storylineand and I have another couple
(31:15):
that that is more current, thatwhen you say you said half a
million dollars, sometimesthat's nothing actually what
some people are spending.
It's like current that when yousay you said half a million
dollars, sometimes that'snothing actually what some
people are spending.
It's like wow, like you'rethrowing your money away, like
can we figure something else out?
Right, it's like almost silly.
But yeah, people get stuck inthat.
And there's like an emotionalcomponent that I biased opinion.
(31:38):
Let's address the emotionalcomponents so you could get
unhooked, right?
So maybe referring them to atherapist might be helpful.
Yeah, just a little side note.
So I love how you throw in verycreative things into that.
So what's the difference orwhat else would you say a good
mediator, an experiencedmediator, might bring to the
(32:00):
table versus an inexperiencedone or one less skilled?
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (32:06):
Well, one of the things I'm always
thinking of is not to take sides, and that's very easy to say
that, but even in the way I talkto them like I won't like this
couple I was just talking about.
I won't say your husband shouldget more.
I will say your husband feelslike he should get more.
(32:28):
That's his position.
So that's something that shehas to deal with, and I'm always
kind of stepping back andletting them do the talking.
In a good mediation session, Italk very little and what I do
(32:50):
is I'm always asking questionsrather than making statements.
Emma Viglucci (32:52):
You know, sometimes talking is overrated.
You know, just our presence inand of itself holds the space
and they could actually do somuch more than they think
they're capable of doing, right.
So that's beautiful, so goodfor you to tap into that and
that you might just translate ita little bit, carry it over a
little bit Right and kind oflike clarify things and you're
not getting in their way orgetting a third position that
(33:15):
makes it even more complicated.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (33:29):
Well, as a mediator, what I do is I'm
really helping them have aconversation that they can't
have without a neutral in theroom because of what's happened
between them or because of thehigh stakes of their
conversation.
They can't have thatconversation without me, Right,
and I'm there.
I'm providing safety becausethere are guidelines and they
(33:53):
know that I'm going to steerthings in a constructive
direction.
Not necessarily that it's goingto be something that they will
like hearing, but I'm going tohelp keep them on point Right
and steer them towards theirgoal.
Emma Viglucci (34:12):
Right, very, very nice.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (34:13):
So I'm moderating their conversation.
And keeping out some of thehorrible stuff that sometimes
comes in right, keep it toyourselves.
Emma Viglucci (34:26):
Very good.
So, unless the skills mediator,what might be some of the
mistakes that they might make?
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (34:33):
they might argue with their clients.
I've seen people do that.
Somebody says you know they'renot entitled to blah, blah, blah
.
And if somebody said that in amediation session for a less
skilled mediator, they might sayI think you're wrong, you know,
and the last thing you want,last thing I want to do as a
(34:55):
mediator is argue with my client, right?
So I might say it's interestingthat you're saying that.
Um, do you want to explain tothe other person why you're
saying that and where you, whatyour basis is for that?
excellent yeah, sometimes theywant my opinion.
(35:16):
If they do, I will always getbuy-in from both of them first,
like I might say you know, Ihave an idea as to how you might
something you might do.
Do you want to hear it now?
I know that it's very likelythat they're both going to say,
(35:37):
yes, they're paying me for aservice and they want my help.
But if either of them says no,I just shut up and then I'm
mediating the process.
Then the other person will saywhy don't you want to hear what
he has to say?
We're paying him, he knows whathe's doing, he's been great so
far.
Why can't we hear his idea?
And so I wait.
(35:57):
And the other person says, okay, fine, tell us your idea.
Emma Viglucci (36:06):
No-transcript advocating it.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (36:10):
You know not, this is what you should do,
Right?
I might say I've worked with anumber of couples who have done
this and it seemed to be a goodidea for them.
And I always also throw in thatyou know your situation might
be different, it might not be agood idea for you, but X, y, z
seems to have worked for a lotof people.
(36:30):
Is that something you would beopen to?
And again, I'm really saying itsoftly so that they don't feel
like I have an agenda, becauseif one of them is going to like
that idea, there's a good chancethe other one's not going to
like it.
Emma Viglucci (36:44):
I understand this .
Yes, yes.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (36:47):
This is black no, it's white.
Two and two is four no, it'ssix.
This is black no, it's white.
This is two and two is four no,it's six.
And so I'm not going, you knowif I buy into one person, the
other person feels like I'm onthat person's side, and so I
soft pedal it and I ask them ifthey're open to an idea, and I
don't tell them what to do.
I ask them what they want to do, and so, you know, I spend a
(37:13):
fair amount of time mediatingthe process.
Okay, you want this to happen.
How do you feel about thathappening?
You want to get the houseappraised.
How do you feel about that?
No, you don't want to get thehouse appraised.
Would you like to explain whynot?
I would never say you shouldget the house appra.
(37:34):
Praise because, then this personfeels I'm their enemy.
Right, it's really between themand a lot of the time I feel
like I'm a bullfighter, you know, like the bull is coming at me
and I have my cape and I'mstanding out of the way.
No, okay, this is your argument.
It is not my argument.
I'm thinking all I'm alwaysthinking I don't care what your
settlement is.
Emma Viglucci (37:54):
Like this couple who I talked about a minute ago.
If you know, if they settlewhere he gets all the money he's
asking for.
And she gives it all up, I'mfine with that.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (38:04):
If they settle it where he gets nothing
or very little, and he's okaywith that and I'm fine with that
.
I don't care.
I have my own opinion as towhat I think is a good result or
the fair result or what mighthappen in court, but that's just
my opinion.
Whatever settles for them, ifthey both understand it and they
certainly will talk to lawyers,so they will have a legal basis
(38:28):
and advice before they decidethat's fine with me.
So I'm not.
I'm just interested in thesense of not caring as long as I
run a good process.
That's what I'm interested inRight.
Emma Viglucci (38:41):
You're not attached in the outcome, like
the outcome is whatever theywant the outcome to be.
You're just helping facilitatean outcome so that they're both
happy with what they landed inor where they both land in the
least of all the evils,something that they could be
okay with.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (38:58):
Exactly.
Emma Viglucci (38:59):
Yeah, very good.
You know, I love the way you'redescribing all of that.
You know, when you hear inpassing and just regular
conversations like, oh, let'smediate that, or you know,
mediation maybe not necessarilyin this context, but usually
when we think of mediation orthe middle ground, or you know,
(39:20):
maybe negotiating orcompromising, like those kinds
of words capture what you'resaying in the way that you're
describing and it's like that istrue mediation, so pretty,
right, like just really stayingout of the way and presenting.
You know, okay, so what do youfeel?
What do you feel?
What do you think?
(39:41):
What do you think?
What do you like?
The why you feel like that,what do you think about that?
Like offering nothing so thatthey could just you facilitate
that's the best way to describeit right, so, so, so pretty, so
they don't get in their own waysand you just keep the path open
but one other thing I wanted toadd.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (39:58):
You asked before um, what does a good
mediator do?
Yes, a good mediator is notafraid of silence an
inexperienced mediator.
If there's 30 seconds ofsilence and here that's five
seconds of silence, that alreadyfeels weird.
But if there's 30, 30 secondsor a minute of silence, many
(40:23):
mediators will jump in feelinglike oh my God, what's happening
?
I let the silence do my work.
Emma Viglucci (40:32):
One of them is going to.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (40:33):
One of them is going to say something,
and then then they're having theconversation again.
Emma Viglucci (40:37):
And then I love that.
Yes, One of them will will saysomething, and so so then they
re-engage on their own, sothey're taking more charge of
their own process.
That's lovely, but I'm alsoloving about that is that it's
so gentle and it allows forpeople to think and process.
So if we move too quick, it'slike you can't wrap your mind
around what's being said.
(40:58):
Things come up, you can't evenprocess them, you don't hear.
You can't hear.
You're having a reaction.
All kinds of things happen whenwe are in an intense situation,
and what you're suggesting isyou allow people to be with
themselves to sit to breathethrough whatever's coming up for
them, if necessary.
Right, Like, think about thefacts.
What does it mean?
Did I hear that?
Right?
Like, does that make sense tome?
(41:18):
Like, just just, it's okay tosit and be.
You know like, just take asecond, it's okay, Nobody's
going anywhere, it's all good.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (41:25):
And some people are very quick thinkers
about emotional things, and somepeople they reach an overload
very quickly, a hundred percent,and they need time, and so
being silent allows them tocatch up.
Emma Viglucci (41:40):
Oh my gosh, yes, that is so beautifully said.
So to the listeners.
Please take stock of that,especially if you're a fast
processor, because when you'regetting patient with your
partner and you're looking foran answer, the answer is going
to be no.
If you're a fast processor,because when you're getting
patient with your partner andyou're looking for an answer,
the answer is going to be no.
If you push, very well said,let them think they just need to
(42:01):
kind of have a second right.
Sometimes they don't know whatthey're feeling, they can't
access anything and you keepcoming at them.
It makes it even worse, right?
So this is definitely somethingthat we practice in session as
well through the therapy couplestherapy.
Like the person that processesvery quickly, that's more
expressive, that's moreemotional.
Take a chill pill, do yourselfa favor and allow your partner
(42:22):
to show up.
If you're all over, yourpartner can't show up, and then
you complain that they can'tshow up, right?
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (42:26):
And we don't always take time to
reflect, and sometimes gooddecision making is helped by a
little bit of taking a breathand reflecting yeah, just
getting in touch with, okay,what's happening inside me, what
are my thoughts, what are mypreferences?
Emma Viglucci (42:41):
right, this is actually along with my values.
Did I lose sight of the things?
Right, just take a bit beat.
You know so good, I love it.
So we cover what's a goodmediator.
We cover what an experiencedone might do.
Um, we cover some of the nicetricks that you have of your
sleeves to to break impasses.
What about when people getstuck in?
(43:08):
Like a power, differential like, or discrepancy or what's the
word that we're looking for?
Imbalance, right?
So any thoughts about that.
How does that get managed?
Like, what are some things thatyou suggest?
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (43:22):
well I'm, I like to call those things out
rather than having them besecret or you know, everybody
knows, but nobody's calling itout into the room.
So I might say, Bob, it seemslike you wrote all the checks,
(43:43):
you did all the accounts, andLouise, do you feel comfortable
with this, the financialdecisions we're making here?
And I might make somesuggestions, Like, for instance,
she can talk to an accountant.
There's a specialist calleddivorce financial planner.
Sometimes we refer people tothem because they focus on both
(44:07):
before and after the divorce.
How is somebody going to beokay?
And so I would call that intothe room.
I always encourage people toget legal advice if I think it
will be helpful, and sometimesI'm working with two people and
one of them is an attorney.
Whether they're a divorceattorney or not, one of them is
(44:28):
an attorney and the other onehas no idea.
Emma Viglucci (44:32):
Yeah or not.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (44:32):
One of them is an attorney and the
other one has no idea.
Yeah, I'm.
I work with people where one ofthem is um very volatile
emotionally and the other issuper calm, and that's a.
That's a weird power imbalancetoo, and the one person's
buttons are always being pushedand the other person is just a
rock, and so that's a.
(44:54):
That's a weird one to mediate,but I've had that a number of
times and so I.
I try to call it out into theroom.
I see that it looks like you'regetting a little bit of upset.
Am I right about that?
Do you need a break?
Do you need, do you want?
Do you want to go get a glassof water?
Do you want to come back in 15minutes?
So I'm trying to just deal withwhatever isn't in front of me
(45:18):
at the time, and there arehundreds of kinds of imbalances
I guess I don't know.
But I just try to keep theprocess working by making it an
open, transparent process by, bymaking it an open, transparent
process and so, whatever theimbalance is, if, if it's
financial acumen, if, one personis really angry and the other
(45:40):
person is scared, whatever it is, I try to address it in the
room and once in a while I willtell them maybe we need to
caucus, because I the imbalanceneeds to be addressed that way.
Emma Viglucci (45:53):
I prefer to do it with both of them, but
sometimes there's just no wayyeah, you know I'm curious about
the imbalance of where oneperson is the rock and the other
one is the emotional one.
I see that a lot in my practice.
That's pretty much for thecourse, that's pretty much what
it is in the daily lineup ofappointments.
(46:15):
And so you said that you wouldaddress the emotionality of the
person who's getting triggeredand who's getting upset.
Where, would you say, from yourperspective, is the power
imbalance in that?
Who holds the power?
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (46:35):
They hold the power.
Emma Viglucci (46:39):
They each hold power in different ways.
I'm going to ask you a weirdquestion, okay, so hopefully I
won't throw you off, that's fine.
Have you come across any weirdrequests or situations that
you're just like?
Seriously, this is what peopleare talking about or fighting
about, or getting tripped up allover or anything like that.
That's just kind of fun toshare.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (46:58):
Oh, the grape story came to mind.
I just I had.
Okay, I'm going to try not tomake it too specific, of course,
yes, yes, these people came tome and early on in the mediation
they talked about what they haddone to each other in past
(47:25):
lives in 16th century france oh,are you kidding me?
Emma Viglucci (47:31):
I love this.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (47:33):
I'm not kidding.
I'm not kidding.
The interesting thing is theyboth had that belief.
That's so cool, and for me myattitude is it's not part of my
experience, but I don't knowthat they're wrong and they seem
(47:55):
to believe this, so I have tomediate this because this is
what they believe.
Emma Viglucci (48:02):
Wow, I was not expecting this.
This is like so funny.
So quick little side notebefore you continue your story.
That is so cool because itwould have been more challenging
to mediate, I assume, if personbelieved like you know, you
were this in 16th century france, whatever.
And the other person's likeyou're freaking nuts, right so,
but they both believed it.
How cool is that that then youhave to mediate something?
(48:23):
That's just so esoteric, rightso, just so french, that's so
cool yep, and they one of thethings they fought about.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (48:33):
I will never forget this.
There was a white leatherjacket and she said you, husband
, have to keep the jacket.
It has bad vibes.
You have to keep it.
Emma Viglucci (48:52):
And the husband said no, you have to keep the
jacket yes, it has bad vibes andyou have to keep it wow, how
interesting, and you couldn'tget rid of it, so one of them
had to be a juju yeah exactlyhow fun wow and it's like they.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (49:11):
They couldn't get rid of it, they
couldn't burn it, they couldn'tthrow it out.
And people sometimes ask mewell, could they have given it
to you?
Emma Viglucci (49:17):
I didn't want that jacket.
I might not believe in pastlife.
I'm not keeping that stinkingjacket.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (49:24):
That's so funny so, yeah, you know, you
take people where they are andthat's what I do.
So what happened?
Emma Viglucci (49:33):
what happened with a little jacket?
Do you remember that one?
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (49:35):
case did not did not end in mediation.
Yeah, I, I think over 90percent of my cases end in
mediation, but that one did not.
They were just there was toomuch going on.
They also had a businesstogether and they wanted to
continue to operate the businesstogether even after they
(49:56):
divorced, and that made itreally complicated and then they
went their own separate ways.
This is probably.
Emma Viglucci (50:03):
I probably saw them 15 years ago or something
like that, so but I will alwaysremember that one yeah, that's
the fun one to keep in yourpocket, that's so interesting.
So whether well, in your pocket, that's so interesting.
So whether well?
And before I call the French soI don't want to I want to
correct myself because somepeople might be insulted by that
if that's part of their beliefsystem.
And I know that nowadays we'reall expanding our levels of
(50:26):
consciousness, we're allexpanding our spirituality, our
belief systems.
We're getting a lot more, ourbelief systems are getting a lot
larger in all the differentways, right, and so I've been
embracing that myself.
And so when I say that, it'sdefinitely not a judgment for
anybody who believes in allkinds of things that belong in
this realm so it was not ajudgment, it was just kind of
(50:47):
like an observation.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (50:50):
There are people who believe that we are a
computer program, that we'renot real people.
So you know that, that thereare people, we're in someone
else's simulation.
You know, I I don't know thatthat's not true.
I I hope it's not true, but Idon't know that that's not true
so yeah yeah, anyway yeah, it'sreally funny.
Emma Viglucci (51:10):
This is a completely different topic now,
but just for kicks, this is sofun.
There's so many differentbelief systems nowadays and it's
just fun to integrate them intolike, okay, how does that fit
into my whole scheme of thingsand how do I integrate that into
how I serve people, if itserves them Right?
So sometimes some of this stuffis too woo woo for some people
and my clients might hear me saythis all the time, like it's
(51:32):
too woo-woo, ignore me, right?
So I just kind of preface itand so I just share whatever
makes sense to you, whatevercomes to me to share, whatever
makes sense for the moment, andthey could always chuck it in
the bucket.
That doesn't make sense and so,yeah, so just bringing in
anything that just serves theconversation and the process,
anything that just serves theconversation and the process,
(51:52):
and if it doesn't serve, let usknow.
Let me know if you're my clientand right, not everything's
going to serve, and that's okaytoo.
So it's a collaboration and atthe end of the day, we all
co-create in that moment andthat experience.
We are here to serve them.
So let us know how we can serveyou best and we'll do the best
that we can right, exactly.
Yeah, very so.
(52:12):
Let us know how we can serveyou best and we'll do the best
that we can right exactly.
Yeah, very good, lovely.
So this leads me to possiblyour last question together,
which is what would be thedescription of a highly
successful mediation process atthe end of the day, one that
you're like, ooh, beau, on topof that one?
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (52:34):
Well, as I said before, where they come in
, I ask them what they'd like totalk about and they have a
conversation I'm gently guidingthem, but saying very little and
they're having a back and forthand one person says well, I
don't want to do this.
I know you want me to do that,but I don't want to do that.
(52:55):
But I will do this and the otherperson says well, if you do
that then I will do this otherthing for you, or I'll, since
you're willing to give on thatyou know and they're having a
conversation again that I don'tthink that they would be able to
have easily without thestructure of the mediation
(53:16):
process, and we move themforward and I'm gently, of
course, I'm taking notes so thatnothing gets forgotten or left,
and then at the end of theprocess, at the end of that
session or at the end of theprocess, they're in agreement
and I'm clear to with them thatI um, once mediation is complete
(53:39):
, I will get rid of all my notesand we'll.
We'll work and I keep the notes, but they're free to change
their minds two, three, four,five times until we have a deal
yeah, yeah, 100%.
Emma Viglucci (53:51):
Very good, thank you for that.
Cool.
So that's so pretty.
So you said so we have a deal.
And you said after the firstsession or after several
meetings.
So how long does the processusually take?
The number of sessions andlength of time?
So I don't know if thatclarification Sure.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (54:13):
I usually meet with people from an hour to
an hour and a half long.
These days I'm doing all mysessions on Zoom, and so it's
harder for people to focus aslong on Zoom as it used to be
for them to be in the same roomtogether.
So it feels like an hour and ahalf is a good stopping point.
(54:35):
I mean, if we're in the middleof something and we want to go
an extra five minutes just tofigure that out, of course I'll
do that.
Yeah, usually my mediations arequick.
I hear mediators say that theirusual mediations are 10 hours,
12 hours.
My mediations are like four tosix hours.
(54:55):
I'm kind of a cut to the chasekind of guy and I kind of help
them figure out what they're nottalking about and what they are
talking about Excellent.
I feel like I'm giving themgood value by doing that and
they're going to be happyclients.
Emma Viglucci (55:10):
Lovely, very nice .
And so four to six sessionsover a period of time, or six
hours, not four, so like three,three sessions, maybe four
sessions right and over how longwell, it depends on their
situations.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (55:26):
I'm going to say we've answered a lot of
your questions, becauseeverybody's different.
Sometimes people need downtimebetween sessions, sometimes,
like, we're about to hit summernow and one person or the other
will be traveling a lot, so itmight be a month before we meet
again.
Right, right On the other hand,sometimes there's a hot issue
(55:47):
like their house is beingforeclosed on and we need to
meet three times this week towork out a settlement and a
short sale or whatever.
So it's really up to them.
Sometimes they need to gathersome information, Like if they
need to get documents and theyhave kids and they can't do it
at night and they have a job ittakes longer.
(56:10):
So it's really up to them howfrequently we meet, but it's
it's common for for me to meetwith people once every week or
once every other week so likethree months about yeah, that's
probably on the long side.
Yeah, probably.
I would say a month to twomonths.
Usually most of my mediationsare concluded.
Emma Viglucci (56:32):
Amazing.
And then I'll draft anagreement.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (56:34):
I'll draft an agreement, I'll send it to
them and we'll go through it bya three-way call or a Zoom so
they understand it.
And then, if they're ready tosign, they can sign.
If not, we can discuss it more.
They can go to attorneys andhave the attorneys advise them.
Is this a good deal or not?
Emma Viglucci (56:53):
Right, right.
And now you've said go toattorneys a few times during
this call and just forclarification for the audience,
you are an attorney as well, soyou're knowledgeable on the law.
You're just saying their ownattorneys.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (57:03):
Right, I will give them legal information
, but I can't give them legaladvice.
So I can tell them, forinstance, what is the expected
amount of child support.
If people are making thisamount and they have two kids, I
can tell them.
That's an information question.
Emma Viglucci (57:21):
Gotcha, gotcha.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (57:22):
If one of them wants more or wants to pay
less, I can't advise themwhether they should accept that
deal or not.
That's advice, not information.
That might go into.
Well, what else are they doing?
They want to the.
This person wants to pay less,but they're giving you the house
, including five hundredthousand dollars in equity, for
(57:44):
free as part of the deal.
Okay, that's you know.
That's something you needadvice about and I won't.
I won't give that advicebecause it's really it's not an
information question gotchainteresting right.
Emma Viglucci (57:55):
So you just clarify all the information and
they could take that and realizeokay, how do I use that to best
suit me and make choices?
Very nice, okay, lovely, thankyou for that distinction.
That's great, thank you allright my love, any other last
minute thoughts that you want toshare with the audience, any
takeaways, any parting words, um, I just wanted to say that.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (58:18):
Um, I the way I do mediation is very easy
to try it.
I charge on a session bysession basis, so you don't have
money tied into the process,and I like doing it that way
because it lets people try itout, it lets people, it keeps me
on my toes and people know thatI'm on my toes because if I do
(58:39):
something wrong they're notgoing to come back.
Emma Viglucci (58:42):
You're working for it Exactly and I'm proving
myself session by session.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (58:48):
And after a session, after two sessions.
People trust me and they knowwho I am.
They know I'm, I'm legitimateand I most of the time.
Emma Viglucci (58:56):
I finish the case excellent good, yeah, amazing,
I like being.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (59:02):
I like having skin in the game, just
like my clients have skin in thegame, you know yes, lovely,
very, very nice, cool.
Emma Viglucci (59:10):
so the last thought as to like, how should
the people be when they gothrough a divorce?
How do they show up with theirbest self, like, what's the
advice?
That's like this is how youensure, to the best that you can
, that you will have a betterprocess, like you know, like
that, those kinds of words.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (59:29):
I wouldn't really advise them about that.
They come in and I will helpthem figure out how to be as we
go ahead and they'll see whatworks and what doesn't and you
know, I'll help them with theirprocess and get them to a result
.
Emma Viglucci (59:44):
Answer like a true mediator.
I love it.
Terrific.
Very, very nice, glenn.
Excellent.
So now I know you have an offerfor people who want to try you
out.
You usually your your.
I think you said consultationis already free, but then you, I
always offer I always offer afree consultation for um anybody
who's thinking about workingwith me.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (01:00:06):
But if anybody um after seeing this, um
hearing this podcast or seeingum this recording comes to me
from that, I will give them thesecond hour of my services
entirely free.
That's so that people are justusing me to get free services.
But if they're serious aboutusing me their second hour, will
(01:00:27):
be free.
Emma Viglucci (01:00:28):
Terrific, that's so generous.
Thank you my pleasure.
So I so appreciate you sharingyour time with me.
Your wisdom, your process is so, so lovely, as I witnessed I
had, like I said earlier, thehonor of witnessing myself, so
yay, and the way that youdescribed it totally captured
all of that.
So, so, so beautiful.
So again, thank you so much forbeing here today with me and
(01:00:49):
sharing time with me.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (01:00:51):
Thank you for sharing your time with me
and thank you for thisopportunity, and it was good to
get to know you better, so Iappreciate that too.
Emma Viglucci (01:00:58):
You're most welcome, and likewise into the
audience.
I will see you at the next one.
Bye.
Hello lovelies, Welcome to another episode.
I am so excited for today'stopic and guest.
We're going to be talking aboutmediation, and my guest is a
mediator.
He sheds some light as to whatare the different options that
people have if they'reconsidering divorce from
litigation to negotiation, tocollaborative divorce, to
(00:27):
mediation so that you couldchoose for yourself what might
feel as the best fit for you.
We also talk aboutmisconceptions about mediation
what a good mediation processlooks like, the difference
between an experienced and goodmediator versus one that's not
so experienced, what the processmight look like, how Glenn does
it, what his process is likeand also what are some different
(00:52):
ways to break impasses anddifferent ways to deal with
power imbalances.
It is a super interview andconversation.
We also highlight what a good,beautiful, successful mediation
process looks like at the end ofthe day.
Stay tuned, you're highlightwhat a good, beautiful,
successful mediation processlooks like at the end of the day
.
Stay tuned, You're in for atreat.
Let me read you his bio andthen we'll say hello to Glenn.
(01:21):
Glenn Dornfeld is a mediator,trainer, mentor and family
divorce attorney with a solomediation and legal practice in
Manhattan.
Almost all of his cases aredivorce mediations.
He also handles matrimonialnegotiations but does not
litigate.
He is frequently asked to teachand coach mediators in various
settings and has presentedmultiple times at both the Bar
(01:44):
Association of the City of NewYork and the Courthouse of the
Supreme Court of the County ofNew York.
Glenn is a past president ofboth the New York State Council
on Divorce Mediation and theFamily and Divorce Mediation
Council of Greater New York andhe is on those councils joint
ethics committee.
He has chaired or co-chairedmany conferences for ACR's
(02:07):
family section and NYS CDM andhas served on APFM's conference
committee several times andregularly presents a mediation
conferences.
He has been awarded the AbelAward for service to the field
of family and divorce mediationand Glenn has graduated summa
(02:28):
cum laude from PrincetonUniversity and received his law
degree from NYU School of Law.
He is admitted to practice lawin New York and New Jersey
Without further ado.
Let's say hello to Glenn.
Hi, Glenn, how are you doingtoday?
So good to have you.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (02:46):
It's great to be here, Emma.
Thank you so much.
I'm doing great.
I hope you're doing great too.
Emma Viglucci (02:51):
I am Thank you so much.
I'm so looking forward to thisconversation.
I want to hook up our audiencewith all things mediation so
that they happen to go down thispath of choosing to not be
together any longer, that theydo it in the best way possible
for them, and so I think thatyou're the best person to talk
to that.
(03:11):
So that's why I wanted to haveyou on.
Yeah, you're welcome.
So the first question that Iwant to ask you, so that the
audience understands, is what isthe difference for somebody
who's getting divorced betweengetting divorced through
litigation, negotiation,collaborative divorce or
mediation, like we're talkingabout today?
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (03:34):
Okay, so the traditional way of divorcing
is two people hiring lawyersand everybody goes to court and
that's just the default.
That has been the way thatpeople divorced for decades.
Um, that gets expensive andcomplicated and it heightens the
um, the conflict between people, because each it drives them
(03:57):
apart.
Each, each person has to saysome extreme things to try to
win.
Then the other person saysextreme things too, and the kids
are in the middle and it canget real ugly.
As everybody knows, you hearabout awful divorces all the
time.
So that's a litigation.
(04:18):
Negotiation is the way mostdivorces are actually resolved,
most divorces.
Even if someone starts adivorce in court, most of the
time they settle the casewithout each person having to
appear in court and dodepositions and rehearse their
testimony and all that stuff.
(04:39):
Usually, somewhere along theline, the lawyers will say okay,
we can settle this case.
Sometimes more quickly,sometimes after a longer amount
of time.
Divorces can take two or threeyears in some cases to resolve,
which is really bad becausepeople's lives are on hold for
that whole period of time.
Yeah, then there's a.
(05:02):
I'll talk about mediation last.
Then there's a I'll talk aboutmediation last.
There's a process calledcollaborative divorce, in which
people agree to kind of walk thehigh road and they agree not to
take any nasty steps andeverybody signs kind of a
contract on what they're, whatthey're not going to do.
(05:24):
And if anybody violates thatcontract then by the contract
they all have to fire theirlawyers and start again, which
is why there's some kind ofenforcement to their agreement
to play fair and to not do nastythings and to share information
(05:44):
and stuff like that.
Nice, yeah.
So collaborative is better inmany cases than litigation.
The downside is it can getreally expensive.
It's kind of an involved process.
Sometimes people bring in awhole team involved.
There's a therapist on the team, there's a therapist on the
(06:05):
team, there's an accountant onthe team, there is a
collaborative kind of organizeron the team, and so because of
that you're paying a lot ofpeople a lot of the time.
And then there's mediation, andin mediation what people do is
they hire a neutral party and Iplay that role many times, yes
(06:30):
and the mediator helps them workout the terms of what will be a
divorce settlement, and they'repaying one person to do that
rather than each having theirown attorneys, and a good
mediator will take them at theirschedule and help them find
(06:51):
their path through, rather thanan attorney saying, well, I
can't really deal with this fora month or whatever, and then
the other attorney's on vacationand then the judge is on
vacation.
And then you know, who knowswhat happens, and then the judge
is on vacation and then youknow who knows what happens.
So it's a very direct processand it gets really to the issues
that they have to address,rather than them positioning or
(07:16):
making threats or having to saythings that aren't necessarily
true, as people do in litigation.
It deals with the real problemsand hopefully gets them to an
answer.
Emma Viglucci (07:29):
Yeah, I love how you're describing all the
different options that peoplehave and mediation, which that's
what you do.
I love that option.
It's so streamlined.
I actually was honored towitness one of your sessions in
the past and you're fabulous atit.
(07:50):
And it's such a beautifulprocess in that it takes into
consideration the people.
It's not just the papers andthe motions and the numbers and
the things and the other thingsand everybody tries to win and
up the other and I just.
It gets so nasty.
So, observing that was sopretty, it almost felt like I
was in a therapy session, whichis nice.
(08:10):
I mean, you have both.
You hold both people.
Both people are right, bothpeople need to count, both
people right.
So how do we do the best forboth?
And that's so nice, as opposedto like trying to up each other
Sometimes I call it atherapeutic approach to a legal
(08:31):
result.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (08:31):
I love that you should trademark that.
Emma Viglucci (08:32):
Yeah, because I'm not dealing with all of the
stuff they don't have to dealwith.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (08:36):
It's like let's get down to the point, and
I will gently redirect them towhat we're talking about.
If they go off on a tangent orif they start having an argument
, that's not directly what we'retalking about.
And sometimes I even point outto them you know, you can pay me
to listen to you argue aboutwhat you did three years ago,
(09:01):
and that's fine with me.
If you do that, you're going topay me, or you can't.
We can talk about how muchchild support would be.
And when I do it in a gentleway, I'm not shaming them, but
I'm reminding them that we'rehere for a purpose and also that
this is costing something.
And very often they say youknow, you're right, let's talk
about I'm sorry about what I wassaying, let's talk about this.
Emma Viglucci (09:22):
That's fabulous, and I actually witnessed that
and I was so impressed by howtactfully you deliver that
message and cut right through,because in therapy, we are there
to talk about all the things.
The price is to see like, nope,we're not doing that, we're
staying here and I was like, ohcool, that's good and people
actually listen Right.
And it's like I mean I saysimilar things like oh cool,
(09:44):
that's good, and people actuallylisten right.
And it's like I mean I saysimilar things Like listen, you
guys could fight and we coulduse a time like that, but you
don't need me for that.
You could do that on your own,you know.
So let's do something different.
I say that all the time.
So it makes complete sense thatlet's stay focused, let's take
care of you the right way, Likeyou could do this funky business
somewhere else, right, itdoesn't serve you.
Beautiful, Thank you.
(10:06):
Yeah, so, Glenn, tell me whatare some misconceptions that
people have about mediation andhow they might look at it?
Crooked.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (10:14):
Okay, A couple of things.
Sometimes people think thatmediation is a process only to
get them to get back together toreconcile, oh interesting.
They think of it as if it iscouples therapy, which it has a
little bit of a feel for it likethat, but it's very much.
(10:34):
It's really whatever they wantand if they want to divorce, or
if one person wants to divorce,the other person ultimately has
to accept that and it may takelonger or may take shorter, yeah
, but if I'm going to help themget divorced, then that's what
we're there for.
So it's not a reconciliationprocess Very good.
(10:56):
Another misconception peopleoften have is that they have to
be friendly.
They have to.
You know, mediation is only forpeople where they're agreeable
and there are no arguments andthey're on the same page.
And I'm happy to take caseslike that, of course.
(11:18):
But it's not really where Iprove myself, it's not really
where I give people value.
It's kind of.
I think of it like being adentist, like if all I did was
cleanings, I wouldn't.
I'm not, I'm not working hardto be a dentist, I'm not keeping
in practice.
But if people come in and theyneed a root canal and they need,
they have six cavities that Ihave to drill in one day.
(11:39):
That's where I'm.
I'm, you know, showing my valueas a dentist and so as a
mediator.
I mean, I've worked with peoplewhere they threw books at each
other in the middle of a session.
I worked with people where Ihad to pull the man off of the
woman.
They were sitting on a couchand threw each other and he, all
of a sudden was strangling her.
(11:59):
I had to pull him and it's allgood.
Emma Viglucci (12:03):
You know, I mean, I'm not happy that that that he
reacted that way.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (12:07):
But they certainly don't have to be
friendly with each other andobviously, if there's a divorce,
in many situations one of themis going to be angry, and so and
it's fine I take what comes inand I help them where they are.
I meet my clients where theyare.
Emma Viglucci (12:26):
That's terrific, so I really appreciate that.
Second one, because I thinkthat that's a real misconception
and I think I'm a little atfault of buying into that one
myself that for the mediationprocess to work well, or I
wouldn't necessarily recommendit for people who are being like
really nutty, that they'rebeing so nutty, how you know and
(12:49):
I use that word so lightlyright, so no, no, I said to
anybody coming from a therapistpeople are nutty but but yeah,
people could get out there,right, and so it's hard to think
that that couple could benefitfrom mediation and maybe that
that the two out there couples,couple could benefit from
mediation, and maybe that thatthe two out there couples might
not benefit from this and maybeyou could talk to that.
But I appreciate the point thatyou don't have to be so
(13:10):
friendly for this to work.
You could still have animosity,you could still have anger, you
could still have things goingon.
You're going through a divorce,you're going to have stuff.
You could still benefit fromthis process.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (13:19):
so I appreciate that they have a
common interest in if the heatis high between them.
They have a common interest ingetting done.
Yes, they even though theymight hope that the other
something bad happens to theother person at this time and
hopefully they get past thateventually.
Yeah, they both want to.
(13:39):
Their lives are are awful atthis point.
They both want to move throughit and so I can say, okay, I
know that you're furious becausethe other one had an affair or
whatever you know, so you wantto get divorced.
So let's get you divorced.
So let's talk about who's goingto have the kids when.
Because you need to do that toget divorced Sometimes.
Emma Viglucci (14:03):
I don't do this often.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (14:04):
But sometimes people can't even be
working with me at the same time, and so I'll do what's called
shuttle mediation.
I'll meet with one of them,then the other.
It's a little bit less direct,a little bit less efficient, but
sometimes that's the only waythat they can cooperate in the
process.
And so I'm taking the meat ofwhat they're saying and I'm
(14:28):
taking out, like all theemotional content, like the
person might say he's a son of abitch and he did this to me and
that's why I want a milliondollars.
Emma Viglucci (14:38):
And so I will talk to the other person and say
, okay, they want a milliondollars.
Right, you deliver a cleanrequest, Right, exactly, and so
it cuts that out and they canrespond million dollars.
You deliver a clean request,Right exactly.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (14:46):
And so it cuts that out and they can
respond to it.
And the other person might sayyou know, I can't believe
they're asking for that kind ofmoney, because they did this and
this to me.
I'll give them $750,000.
Emma Viglucci (14:58):
So then I go to the first person and say, okay
he said $750,000.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (15:02):
And so I'm cutting out all of the stuff
that makes it harder for themanyway yeah, perfect, that's
beautiful and I love thelanguage shuttle mediation.
Emma Viglucci (15:13):
That makes a lot of sense.
Sometimes we do that in couplestherapy.
Sometimes the sessions are sointense there's you can be
productive like we're just likeI can't even speak, and I
consider myself to be a prettygood therapist.
I mean, I have a lot of yearsunder my belt and I have a very
high tense couples, butsometimes it's just like dudes,
we can't get anything done.
You know, let me meet with youseparately so we could get some
headways, and then let's comeback together.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (15:34):
So it happens Exactly the same thing,
yeah totally.
Emma Viglucci (15:36):
I hear you Beautiful.
So are couples that shouldn'tgo to mediation.
You're just like I don't knowif I'm your person or that the
mediation process wouldn'tnecessarily serve them.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (15:52):
One kind of person who shouldn't go to
mediation is if they don't wanta fair process, if they don't
want to disclose all that theyhave, because it's all about
open disclosure.
If they want to try to discloseall that they have, because
it's all about open disclosure.
If they want to try to get awaywith something, they shouldn't
go to mediation.
If they want to punish theirspouse, for whatever reason,
(16:18):
they shouldn't go to mediation,because that's just not what the
process is.
Because that's just not whatthe process is.
If they're not entering in goodfaith, they should not go to
mediation.
But I work with people who haveattorneys all the time and I
always encourage them to consultwith attorneys as they need to
throughout the process.
(16:39):
So even if people have tons ofmoney or have lots of legal
questions, it's fine for them tocome to mediation and they can.
They can consult as they needto and sometimes they bring
their attorney into the session.
That's fine with me, as long asas long as the other person
knows that they're going to theother.
You know, as long as person Bknows person A is bringing an
(17:02):
attorney, person B might alsowant to bring their attorney.
Emma Viglucci (17:05):
That's right.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (17:06):
So, but yeah, if they want to, if
they're trying to just get overon the other person or get over
on the system, if they don'twant to, if they don't want an
honest or fair process,mediation is not for them.
Emma Viglucci (17:18):
I love that distinction because then, yeah,
you can still be angry, you canstill be hurt, you can still be
all the things, but you stillwant to do right by the other
person.
You still want to hold highstandards, take the high road,
do the right right by by yourlegacy of this marriage and your
children and everything else.
You don't want to be in courtthrowing your money away,
spending a gazillion millionyears there, right?
(17:39):
So if you, if you want to do,do it the right way, then you do
it nicely, like this.
But, like you're saying, if youjust want to fight to win
because the other person is ajerk or whatever, an SOB, and
you hate their guts, then thisis potentially not right.
If you're out for blood, thenthis is not the process.
Very nice, right.
So you could be angry and upset, but as long as you still want
(18:01):
a fair process, you could haveall your feelings.
It's not about that, terr, butas long as you still want a fair
process, you could have allyour feelings.
It's not about that Terrific,Awesome.
So can you share a little bitabout, then, what the process
looks like?
How would you get the couplestarted?
What should they expect fromthis process?
What it kind of looks like sothey have a feel for what to
expect if they were to engage insomething like this?
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (18:22):
Sure, before my first session with a
couple, I will send them acouple of documents so that they
can prepare for the session.
I don't want them to focus toomuch on having to do a lot of
homework before our firstsession, because sometimes
people freak out or sometimesthey'll spend 10, 15, 20 hours
preparing and a lot of thepreparation will be wasted
(18:45):
because we might not ever get tothat.
So at a first session, before afirst session, I send them a
couple of documents to help themprepare and I try to put them
at ease so that they can come inwithout freaking out.
Good, at a first session we'reusually looking to kind of
establish the guidelines whatare we going to do there?
(19:08):
Most of my couples will say atthe first session I'm really
nervous, I've never done thisbefore, right, most people say
that, right, and of course mostpeople have never divorced
before and they don't know thatmuch about mediation.
There are misleading depictionsof mediation in the movies and
(19:28):
on TV and you know they don'tknow what to expect.
Yeah, so I like to say that atthe first session we're looking
at the forest and then later onwe'll look at the trees.
So what are the?
What are the things that they?
What are the questions thatthey have to answer?
So they have to answer.
Maybe are they going to keepthe apartment or are they going
(19:49):
to sell it.
Another question is if thereare kids, who are the kids going
to be with when?
Emma Viglucci (19:58):
You know what's really interesting.
So obviously you work with newyork city people.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (20:02):
Because you said apartment instead of a
house, yes and of course, housestoo, and some people have
multiple properties I workedwith.
I worked with a couple where,um, the husband would made six
million dollars a year, you know.
He's like when they hadproperties all over the place
and who's getting this, the onewith the ski house, and who's
(20:23):
getting the Manhattan one, andwho's getting the one in Puerto
Rico, and you know.
So, yeah, whatever comes in.
So, anyway, the first sessionI'm kind of setting the
guidelines and kind ofcollecting information from them
to help structure the processfor the next session and the
session after that.
So, okay, you're going to needto bring me your retirement
(20:46):
statement so we can work on that.
The next session, fine, Okay,good.
We're not going to necessarilydo it at a first session, but
you'll share reports and if youneed my help, I'm happy to
provide it.
I encourage them to do as muchas possible between them.
Yes, good If they can, and somecouples can get a lot of work
(21:08):
done between them.
Some couples can't do anythingand some couples can deal with
certain issues and not otherissues.
Emma Viglucci (21:15):
Like they can deal with the kids but not the
money.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (21:18):
Or they can work out the residents, but
not child support.
So whatever they can work outmakes the process quicker and
cheaper.
And, most importantly to meeven though not necessarily to
them, most importantly to me I'mhelping them model that they
(21:40):
can work on things going forward.
Because they're going todivorce and they're going to
leave my you know I'm going tosend them a divorce judgment
months later and then they'regoing to live another 5, 10, 20,
30, 40, 50 years.
I mean, if they have young kids, they're going to have to be at
college graduations, they'regoing to have to be at bedside,
(22:02):
somebody's going to get sick,and so I'm modeling for them
that they can work out, they canhave a conversation, even if
there are certain hot buttonissues, and so I don't tell them
that that's what I'm doing forthem, because that's not why
they're there, but I'm trying tokind of pattern that for them
(22:22):
and you know, at the end I mightsay look at that, you figured
out how to sell the housebetween you.
You didn't need my help greatsuper you know what?
Emma Viglucci (22:30):
I would offer that because I mean I offer it
when people might get to thisplace.
I say to them listen, whetheryou continue together or not,
you still want to be in goodstanding.
You have children.
You're going to be in eachother's lives for a long time.
So let's figure this out,regardless of your status and
what you choose to do at the endof the day, right?
So let's figure out how youguys work together, so for sure.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (22:52):
I sometimes mention that but I try
to be really subtle and gentlewith that, because I find that
when my clients think that Ihave an agenda, sometimes they
don't buy into that agenda orthey're not ready to buy into it
.
Emma Viglucci (23:07):
And if I say that , one of them might say I don't
want to talk about what we're.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (23:10):
I don't want to talk about ever being in
the same room with this person,so I need to, I need to be
really gentle and subtle ondoing that.
So I lay the groundwork, but I,I don't.
Emma Viglucci (23:23):
I don't push any message and that's fair, because
by the time they have gotten toyou, like it's a very delicate
situation and we want people tobe engaged and be as amicable as
possible to the degree thatthey can.
So, like doing any maneuveringmight feel weird to them and
then they might not necessarilystay engaged.
I hear you, that's perfect.
Yeah, very good.
(23:43):
So what are some of the thingsthat people address?
So you mentioned child support.
You mentioned properties,finances, custody, yeah, so what
are the things?
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (23:56):
Yeah, I don't want to go into a lot of
detail because it's not going tobe that interesting for your
podcast audience, but the fourmain topics are who are the kids
going to be with when, and thatgets called, in legal terms,
custody and visitation.
Emma Viglucci (24:14):
Right.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (24:16):
What are you going to do about supporting
the kids, which is called childsupport?
Is there going to be alimony,which is also called spousal
support, also spousalmaintenance, and if so, what are
the conditions, how much, when?
What ends spousal support?
And what are you going to doabout dividing property and
debts?
And that's something reallyimportant not to forget about.
(24:37):
So those are the four maintopics.
And then there are smaller onesthat kind of run through those.
There's like insurance.
It could be insurance on a car,which is kind of property
related.
It could be health insurancefor the kids, which is kind of
child support related.
So there's insurance andthere's taxes we have to deal
(24:59):
with.
Who's going to file, how?
How are you going to file?
You're going to keep staymarried so you can file a joint
return.
Some people it's veryadvantageous to stay married for
a little bit longer so they canfile joint returns.
Yep, um, and those are reallythe main issues, and sometimes
people bring up random stuffthat they want included.
(25:21):
But sometimes they want aclause, a non-disparagement
clause, where they say you know,each person agrees that they're
not going to tell their friendsabout what happened between
them and they're not going topublish anything.
Sometimes somebody is a bloggerwho can get nasty, and so you
(25:43):
know somebody might say I knowyou're going to.
As soon as this is done, you'regoing to start blogging about me
.
Emma Viglucci (25:49):
A YouTuber.
Yeah, you have to agree not todo that, yeah, exactly yeah.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (25:56):
So anything they bring in I'm happy
to deal with, of course, butthose are the main ones.
Emma Viglucci (26:03):
Okay, good, good.
So what things do you find thattrip people up?
So you mentioned a few thingsalready, like what creates
impasses, where do people get,like they start butting heads
and stuff.
And then what would somebody anexpert like yourself and who's
a good mediator and stuff andthen what would somebody an
expert like yourself and who's agood mediator do to be able to
(26:23):
resolve that and to help themthrough, navigate that and pass
through?
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (26:29):
That's actually a great question.
I'm working now with a couplewhere the wife has a lot of
family money and the husband isasking for a fair amount of
spousal support.
And the wife is furious.
(26:52):
She feels that she has beensupporting him for years and she
doesn't want to support himanymore.
And the husband feels he'sentitled under law to what he's
asking for and has in factlowered what he's asking for
just to kind of get to a deal.
(27:13):
So there are emotionalresentments and blockages of the
process, like she could easilyif she wanted to she could
easily give him what he's askingfor and be done with the
(27:34):
process.
I'm not saying that she should,but she could.
It's a choice that she couldmake.
Saying that she should, right,but she could, it's a choice
that she could make right.
And he has pointed out a coupleof times that if he, if he gave
, if she gave him what she'sasking for, she would not ever
feel the difference because ofher finances.
But she's saying he's notentitled and other things
(27:56):
happened between them and sothis emotional stuff gets in the
way sometimes of them coming toa deal.
And so with this couple I havebeen, like I said before, I've
been doing shuttle mediation,talking to one and the other,
and I've gotten them a lotcloser.
I haven't yet gotten them to adeal yet, but the distance
(28:18):
between them is now about afifth of what the distance was
when I first started with them.
So they're much closer, butthey're both getting close to a
resistance point where they'resaying I'm not moving anymore,
so I don't know if it'll resolve, but um, so that's one of the
(28:39):
things I do is I try to becauseof the hot buttons between them.
I've done shuttle and I'vetried to get them closer and I
have and I may.
Another thing I may propose tothem is that they each are
coming in saying that theirlawyers are telling them that my
position is correct, right, and, and so what I may, yeah.
(29:03):
So what I may do next is say canI have a mediation session with
your lawyers?
Because that way the lawyerscan hear what each other is
saying, instead of it being atelephone game, where the lawyer
allegedly tells the client thisand then the client tells me
that, and then I tell it to theother person.
If the lawyers get together,maybe I can cut through the
(29:26):
remaining resistance.
Emma Viglucci (29:29):
Yeah, that's excellent, unless the other
lawyers have taken it less thanlonger.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (29:35):
We might find out.
Emma Viglucci (29:36):
Yeah.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (29:39):
Another idea I have with them is we can
also go to.
There are retired judges whosometimes give neutral opinions.
So another thing I might dowith them to help them, because
neither of them wants to go tocourt.
It would take years, it wouldeat up a ton of money half a
million dollars probably inlegal fees, and it's just.
(30:03):
It would be horrible for them.
They have kids.
Kids are kind of older, butthey're still kids, and so I
might just encourage them to geta neutral opinion that would
not be binding on them.
They can still roll the diceand go to a judge, but at least
it may be helpful to them toknow what a judge who's dealt
(30:25):
with matrimonials before wouldsay about this.
And one of them might well befind out.
Oh my God, my lawyer is givingme bad information and I'm going
to lose if I go to court.
Maybe I want to settle.
Emma Viglucci (30:41):
Oh, how wonderful .
I love that.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (30:43):
I'm always trying for different ways to
solve the problem and remove theimpasse, depending on what's
presented to me in a givensituation.
Emma Viglucci (30:54):
Yeah, that's so interesting.
So I had a couple that was verysimilar to the couple that
you're describing.
I actually thought of them assoon as you brought it.
I'm like, oh, I wonder ifthat's them.
Um, very similar.
Like the woman had the moneyand the guys wants part of it
and she's like that's not yourmoney, like the whole thing.
So I understand that storylineand and I have another couple
(31:15):
that that is more current, thatwhen you say you said half a
million dollars, sometimesthat's nothing actually what
some people are spending.
It's like current that when yousay you said half a million
dollars, sometimes that'snothing actually what some
people are spending.
It's like wow, like you'rethrowing your money away, like
can we figure something else out?
Right, it's like almost silly.
But yeah, people get stuck inthat.
And there's like an emotionalcomponent that I biased opinion.
(31:38):
Let's address the emotionalcomponents so you could get
unhooked, right?
So maybe referring them to atherapist might be helpful.
Yeah, just a little side note.
So I love how you throw in verycreative things into that.
So what's the difference orwhat else would you say a good
mediator, an experiencedmediator, might bring to the
(32:00):
table versus an inexperiencedone or one less skilled?
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (32:06):
Well, one of the things I'm always
thinking of is not to take sides, and that's very easy to say
that, but even in the way I talkto them like I won't like this
couple I was just talking about.
I won't say your husband shouldget more.
I will say your husband feelslike he should get more.
(32:28):
That's his position.
So that's something that shehas to deal with, and I'm always
kind of stepping back andletting them do the talking.
In a good mediation session, Italk very little and what I do
(32:50):
is I'm always asking questionsrather than making statements.
Emma Viglucci (32:52):
You know, sometimes talking is overrated.
You know, just our presence inand of itself holds the space
and they could actually do somuch more than they think
they're capable of doing, right.
So that's beautiful, so goodfor you to tap into that and
that you might just translate ita little bit, carry it over a
little bit Right and kind oflike clarify things and you're
not getting in their way orgetting a third position that
(33:15):
makes it even more complicated.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (33:29):
Well, as a mediator, what I do is I'm
really helping them have aconversation that they can't
have without a neutral in theroom because of what's happened
between them or because of thehigh stakes of their
conversation.
They can't have thatconversation without me, Right,
and I'm there.
I'm providing safety becausethere are guidelines and they
(33:53):
know that I'm going to steerthings in a constructive
direction.
Not necessarily that it's goingto be something that they will
like hearing, but I'm going tohelp keep them on point Right
and steer them towards theirgoal.
Emma Viglucci (34:12):
Right, very, very nice.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (34:13):
So I'm moderating their conversation.
And keeping out some of thehorrible stuff that sometimes
comes in right, keep it toyourselves.
Emma Viglucci (34:26):
Very good.
So, unless the skills mediator,what might be some of the
mistakes that they might make?
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (34:33):
they might argue with their clients.
I've seen people do that.
Somebody says you know they'renot entitled to blah, blah, blah
.
And if somebody said that in amediation session for a less
skilled mediator, they might sayI think you're wrong, you know,
and the last thing you want,last thing I want to do as a
(34:55):
mediator is argue with my client, right?
So I might say it's interestingthat you're saying that.
Um, do you want to explain tothe other person why you're
saying that and where you, whatyour basis is for that?
excellent yeah, sometimes theywant my opinion.
(35:16):
If they do, I will always getbuy-in from both of them first,
like I might say you know, Ihave an idea as to how you might
something you might do.
Do you want to hear it now?
I know that it's very likelythat they're both going to say,
(35:37):
yes, they're paying me for aservice and they want my help.
But if either of them says no,I just shut up and then I'm
mediating the process.
Then the other person will saywhy don't you want to hear what
he has to say?
We're paying him, he knows whathe's doing, he's been great so
far.
Why can't we hear his idea?
And so I wait.
(35:57):
And the other person says, okay, fine, tell us your idea.
Emma Viglucci (36:06):
No-transcript advocating it.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (36:10):
You know not, this is what you should do,
Right?
I might say I've worked with anumber of couples who have done
this and it seemed to be a goodidea for them.
And I always also throw in thatyou know your situation might
be different, it might not be agood idea for you, but X, y, z
seems to have worked for a lotof people.
(36:30):
Is that something you would beopen to?
And again, I'm really saying itsoftly so that they don't feel
like I have an agenda, becauseif one of them is going to like
that idea, there's a good chancethe other one's not going to
like it.
Emma Viglucci (36:44):
I understand this .
Yes, yes.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (36:47):
This is black no, it's white.
Two and two is four no, it'ssix.
This is black no, it's white.
This is two and two is four no,it's six.
And so I'm not going, you knowif I buy into one person, the
other person feels like I'm onthat person's side, and so I
soft pedal it and I ask them ifthey're open to an idea, and I
don't tell them what to do.
I ask them what they want to do, and so, you know, I spend a
(37:13):
fair amount of time mediatingthe process.
Okay, you want this to happen.
How do you feel about thathappening?
You want to get the houseappraised.
How do you feel about that?
No, you don't want to get thehouse appraised.
Would you like to explain whynot?
I would never say you shouldget the house appra.
(37:34):
Praise because, then this personfeels I'm their enemy.
Right, it's really between themand a lot of the time I feel
like I'm a bullfighter, you know, like the bull is coming at me
and I have my cape and I'mstanding out of the way.
No, okay, this is your argument.
It is not my argument.
I'm thinking all I'm alwaysthinking I don't care what your
settlement is.
Emma Viglucci (37:54):
Like this couple who I talked about a minute ago.
If you know, if they settlewhere he gets all the money he's
asking for.
And she gives it all up, I'mfine with that.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (38:04):
If they settle it where he gets nothing
or very little, and he's okaywith that and I'm fine with that
.
I don't care.
I have my own opinion as towhat I think is a good result or
the fair result or what mighthappen in court, but that's just
my opinion.
Whatever settles for them, ifthey both understand it and they
certainly will talk to lawyers,so they will have a legal basis
(38:28):
and advice before they decidethat's fine with me.
So I'm not.
I'm just interested in thesense of not caring as long as I
run a good process.
That's what I'm interested inRight.
Emma Viglucci (38:41):
You're not attached in the outcome, like
the outcome is whatever theywant the outcome to be.
You're just helping facilitatean outcome so that they're both
happy with what they landed inor where they both land in the
least of all the evils,something that they could be
okay with.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (38:58):
Exactly.
Emma Viglucci (38:59):
Yeah, very good.
You know, I love the way you'redescribing all of that.
You know, when you hear inpassing and just regular
conversations like, oh, let'smediate that, or you know,
mediation maybe not necessarilyin this context, but usually
when we think of mediation orthe middle ground, or you know,
(39:20):
maybe negotiating orcompromising, like those kinds
of words capture what you'resaying in the way that you're
describing and it's like that istrue mediation, so pretty,
right, like just really stayingout of the way and presenting.
You know, okay, so what do youfeel?
What do you feel?
What do you think?
(39:41):
What do you think?
What do you like?
The why you feel like that,what do you think about that?
Like offering nothing so thatthey could just you facilitate
that's the best way to describeit right, so, so, so pretty, so
they don't get in their own waysand you just keep the path open
but one other thing I wanted toadd.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (39:58):
You asked before um, what does a good
mediator do?
Yes, a good mediator is notafraid of silence an
inexperienced mediator.
If there's 30 seconds ofsilence and here that's five
seconds of silence, that alreadyfeels weird.
But if there's 30, 30 secondsor a minute of silence, many
(40:23):
mediators will jump in feelinglike oh my God, what's happening
?
I let the silence do my work.
Emma Viglucci (40:32):
One of them is going to.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (40:33):
One of them is going to say something,
and then then they're having theconversation again.
Emma Viglucci (40:37):
And then I love that.
Yes, One of them will will saysomething, and so so then they
re-engage on their own, sothey're taking more charge of
their own process.
That's lovely, but I'm alsoloving about that is that it's
so gentle and it allows forpeople to think and process.
So if we move too quick, it'slike you can't wrap your mind
around what's being said.
(40:58):
Things come up, you can't evenprocess them, you don't hear.
You can't hear.
You're having a reaction.
All kinds of things happen whenwe are in an intense situation,
and what you're suggesting isyou allow people to be with
themselves to sit to breathethrough whatever's coming up for
them, if necessary.
Right, Like, think about thefacts.
What does it mean?
Did I hear that?
Right?
Like, does that make sense tome?
(41:18):
Like, just just, it's okay tosit and be.
You know like, just take asecond, it's okay, Nobody's
going anywhere, it's all good.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (41:25):
And some people are very quick thinkers
about emotional things, and somepeople they reach an overload
very quickly, a hundred percent,and they need time, and so
being silent allows them tocatch up.
Emma Viglucci (41:40):
Oh my gosh, yes, that is so beautifully said.
So to the listeners.
Please take stock of that,especially if you're a fast
processor, because when you'regetting patient with your
partner and you're looking foran answer, the answer is going
to be no.
If you're a fast processor,because when you're getting
patient with your partner andyou're looking for an answer,
the answer is going to be no.
If you push, very well said,let them think they just need to
(42:01):
kind of have a second right.
Sometimes they don't know whatthey're feeling, they can't
access anything and you keepcoming at them.
It makes it even worse, right?
So this is definitely somethingthat we practice in session as
well through the therapy couplestherapy.
Like the person that processesvery quickly, that's more
expressive, that's moreemotional.
Take a chill pill, do yourselfa favor and allow your partner
(42:22):
to show up.
If you're all over, yourpartner can't show up, and then
you complain that they can'tshow up, right?
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (42:26):
And we don't always take time to
reflect, and sometimes gooddecision making is helped by a
little bit of taking a breathand reflecting yeah, just
getting in touch with, okay,what's happening inside me, what
are my thoughts, what are mypreferences?
Emma Viglucci (42:41):
right, this is actually along with my values.
Did I lose sight of the things?
Right, just take a bit beat.
You know so good, I love it.
So we cover what's a goodmediator.
We cover what an experiencedone might do.
Um, we cover some of the nicetricks that you have of your
sleeves to to break impasses.
What about when people getstuck in?
(43:08):
Like a power, differential like, or discrepancy or what's the
word that we're looking for?
Imbalance, right?
So any thoughts about that.
How does that get managed?
Like, what are some things thatyou suggest?
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (43:22):
well I'm, I like to call those things out
rather than having them besecret or you know, everybody
knows, but nobody's calling itout into the room.
So I might say, Bob, it seemslike you wrote all the checks,
(43:43):
you did all the accounts, andLouise, do you feel comfortable
with this, the financialdecisions we're making here?
And I might make somesuggestions, Like, for instance,
she can talk to an accountant.
There's a specialist calleddivorce financial planner.
Sometimes we refer people tothem because they focus on both
(44:07):
before and after the divorce.
How is somebody going to beokay?
And so I would call that intothe room.
I always encourage people toget legal advice if I think it
will be helpful, and sometimesI'm working with two people and
one of them is an attorney.
Whether they're a divorceattorney or not, one of them is
(44:28):
an attorney and the other onehas no idea.
Emma Viglucci (44:32):
Yeah or not.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (44:32):
One of them is an attorney and the
other one has no idea.
Yeah, I'm.
I work with people where one ofthem is um very volatile
emotionally and the other issuper calm, and that's a.
That's a weird power imbalancetoo, and the one person's
buttons are always being pushedand the other person is just a
rock, and so that's a.
(44:54):
That's a weird one to mediate,but I've had that a number of
times and so I.
I try to call it out into theroom.
I see that it looks like you'regetting a little bit of upset.
Am I right about that?
Do you need a break?
Do you need, do you want?
Do you want to go get a glassof water?
Do you want to come back in 15minutes?
So I'm trying to just deal withwhatever isn't in front of me
(45:18):
at the time, and there arehundreds of kinds of imbalances
I guess I don't know.
But I just try to keep theprocess working by making it an
open, transparent process by, bymaking it an open, transparent
process and so, whatever theimbalance is, if, if it's
financial acumen, if, one personis really angry and the other
(45:40):
person is scared, whatever it is, I try to address it in the
room and once in a while I willtell them maybe we need to
caucus, because I the imbalanceneeds to be addressed that way.
Emma Viglucci (45:53):
I prefer to do it with both of them, but
sometimes there's just no wayyeah, you know I'm curious about
the imbalance of where oneperson is the rock and the other
one is the emotional one.
I see that a lot in my practice.
That's pretty much for thecourse, that's pretty much what
it is in the daily lineup ofappointments.
(46:15):
And so you said that you wouldaddress the emotionality of the
person who's getting triggeredand who's getting upset.
Where, would you say, from yourperspective, is the power
imbalance in that?
Who holds the power?
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (46:35):
They hold the power.
Emma Viglucci (46:39):
They each hold power in different ways.
I'm going to ask you a weirdquestion, okay, so hopefully I
won't throw you off, that's fine.
Have you come across any weirdrequests or situations that
you're just like?
Seriously, this is what peopleare talking about or fighting
about, or getting tripped up allover or anything like that.
That's just kind of fun toshare.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (46:58):
Oh, the grape story came to mind.
I just I had.
Okay, I'm going to try not tomake it too specific, of course,
yes, yes, these people came tome and early on in the mediation
they talked about what they haddone to each other in past
(47:25):
lives in 16th century france oh,are you kidding me?
Emma Viglucci (47:31):
I love this.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (47:33):
I'm not kidding.
I'm not kidding.
The interesting thing is theyboth had that belief.
That's so cool, and for me myattitude is it's not part of my
experience, but I don't knowthat they're wrong and they seem
(47:55):
to believe this, so I have tomediate this because this is
what they believe.
Emma Viglucci (48:02):
Wow, I was not expecting this.
This is like so funny.
So quick little side notebefore you continue your story.
That is so cool because itwould have been more challenging
to mediate, I assume, if personbelieved like you know, you
were this in 16th century france, whatever.
And the other person's likeyou're freaking nuts, right so,
but they both believed it.
How cool is that that then youhave to mediate something?
(48:23):
That's just so esoteric, rightso, just so french, that's so
cool yep, and they one of thethings they fought about.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (48:33):
I will never forget this.
There was a white leatherjacket and she said you, husband
, have to keep the jacket.
It has bad vibes.
You have to keep it.
Emma Viglucci (48:52):
And the husband said no, you have to keep the
jacket yes, it has bad vibes andyou have to keep it wow, how
interesting, and you couldn'tget rid of it, so one of them
had to be a juju yeah exactlyhow fun wow and it's like they.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (49:11):
They couldn't get rid of it, they
couldn't burn it, they couldn'tthrow it out.
And people sometimes ask mewell, could they have given it
to you?
Emma Viglucci (49:17):
I didn't want that jacket.
I might not believe in pastlife.
I'm not keeping that stinkingjacket.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (49:24):
That's so funny so, yeah, you know, you
take people where they are andthat's what I do.
So what happened?
Emma Viglucci (49:33):
what happened with a little jacket?
Do you remember that one?
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (49:35):
case did not did not end in mediation.
Yeah, I, I think over 90percent of my cases end in
mediation, but that one did not.
They were just there was toomuch going on.
They also had a businesstogether and they wanted to
continue to operate the businesstogether even after they
(49:56):
divorced, and that made itreally complicated and then they
went their own separate ways.
This is probably.
Emma Viglucci (50:03):
I probably saw them 15 years ago or something
like that, so but I will alwaysremember that one yeah, that's
the fun one to keep in yourpocket, that's so interesting.
So whether well, in your pocket, that's so interesting.
So whether well?
And before I call the French soI don't want to I want to
correct myself because somepeople might be insulted by that
if that's part of their beliefsystem.
And I know that nowadays we'reall expanding our levels of
(50:26):
consciousness, we're allexpanding our spirituality, our
belief systems.
We're getting a lot more, ourbelief systems are getting a lot
larger in all the differentways, right, and so I've been
embracing that myself.
And so when I say that, it'sdefinitely not a judgment for
anybody who believes in allkinds of things that belong in
this realm so it was not ajudgment, it was just kind of
(50:47):
like an observation.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (50:50):
There are people who believe that we are a
computer program, that we'renot real people.
So you know that, that thereare people, we're in someone
else's simulation.
You know, I I don't know thatthat's not true.
I I hope it's not true, but Idon't know that that's not true
so yeah yeah, anyway yeah, it'sreally funny.
Emma Viglucci (51:10):
This is a completely different topic now,
but just for kicks, this is sofun.
There's so many differentbelief systems nowadays and it's
just fun to integrate them intolike, okay, how does that fit
into my whole scheme of thingsand how do I integrate that into
how I serve people, if itserves them Right?
So sometimes some of this stuffis too woo woo for some people
and my clients might hear me saythis all the time, like it's
(51:32):
too woo-woo, ignore me, right?
So I just kind of preface itand so I just share whatever
makes sense to you, whatevercomes to me to share, whatever
makes sense for the moment, andthey could always chuck it in
the bucket.
That doesn't make sense and so,yeah, so just bringing in
anything that just serves theconversation and the process,
anything that just serves theconversation and the process,
(51:52):
and if it doesn't serve, let usknow.
Let me know if you're my clientand right, not everything's
going to serve, and that's okaytoo.
So it's a collaboration and atthe end of the day, we all
co-create in that moment andthat experience.
We are here to serve them.
So let us know how we can serveyou best and we'll do the best
that we can right, exactly.
Yeah, very so.
(52:12):
Let us know how we can serveyou best and we'll do the best
that we can right exactly.
Yeah, very good, lovely.
So this leads me to possiblyour last question together,
which is what would be thedescription of a highly
successful mediation process atthe end of the day, one that
you're like, ooh, beau, on topof that one?
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (52:34):
Well, as I said before, where they come in
, I ask them what they'd like totalk about and they have a
conversation I'm gently guidingthem, but saying very little and
they're having a back and forthand one person says well, I
don't want to do this.
I know you want me to do that,but I don't want to do that.
(52:55):
But I will do this and the otherperson says well, if you do
that then I will do this otherthing for you, or I'll, since
you're willing to give on thatyou know and they're having a
conversation again that I don'tthink that they would be able to
have easily without thestructure of the mediation
(53:16):
process, and we move themforward and I'm gently, of
course, I'm taking notes so thatnothing gets forgotten or left,
and then at the end of theprocess, at the end of that
session or at the end of theprocess, they're in agreement
and I'm clear to with them thatI um, once mediation is complete
(53:39):
, I will get rid of all my notesand we'll.
We'll work and I keep the notes, but they're free to change
their minds two, three, four,five times until we have a deal
yeah, yeah, 100%.
Emma Viglucci (53:51):
Very good, thank you for that.
Cool.
So that's so pretty.
So you said so we have a deal.
And you said after the firstsession or after several
meetings.
So how long does the processusually take?
The number of sessions andlength of time?
So I don't know if thatclarification Sure.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (54:13):
I usually meet with people from an hour to
an hour and a half long.
These days I'm doing all mysessions on Zoom, and so it's
harder for people to focus aslong on Zoom as it used to be
for them to be in the same roomtogether.
So it feels like an hour and ahalf is a good stopping point.
(54:35):
I mean, if we're in the middleof something and we want to go
an extra five minutes just tofigure that out, of course I'll
do that.
Yeah, usually my mediations arequick.
I hear mediators say that theirusual mediations are 10 hours,
12 hours.
My mediations are like four tosix hours.
(54:55):
I'm kind of a cut to the chasekind of guy and I kind of help
them figure out what they're nottalking about and what they are
talking about Excellent.
I feel like I'm giving themgood value by doing that and
they're going to be happyclients.
Emma Viglucci (55:10):
Lovely, very nice .
And so four to six sessionsover a period of time, or six
hours, not four, so like three,three sessions, maybe four
sessions right and over how longwell, it depends on their
situations.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (55:26):
I'm going to say we've answered a lot of
your questions, becauseeverybody's different.
Sometimes people need downtimebetween sessions, sometimes,
like, we're about to hit summernow and one person or the other
will be traveling a lot, so itmight be a month before we meet
again.
Right, right On the other hand,sometimes there's a hot issue
(55:47):
like their house is beingforeclosed on and we need to
meet three times this week towork out a settlement and a
short sale or whatever.
So it's really up to them.
Sometimes they need to gathersome information, Like if they
need to get documents and theyhave kids and they can't do it
at night and they have a job ittakes longer.
(56:10):
So it's really up to them howfrequently we meet, but it's
it's common for for me to meetwith people once every week or
once every other week so likethree months about yeah, that's
probably on the long side.
Yeah, probably.
I would say a month to twomonths.
Usually most of my mediationsare concluded.
Emma Viglucci (56:32):
Amazing.
And then I'll draft anagreement.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (56:34):
I'll draft an agreement, I'll send it to
them and we'll go through it bya three-way call or a Zoom so
they understand it.
And then, if they're ready tosign, they can sign.
If not, we can discuss it more.
They can go to attorneys andhave the attorneys advise them.
Is this a good deal or not?
Emma Viglucci (56:53):
Right, right.
And now you've said go toattorneys a few times during
this call and just forclarification for the audience,
you are an attorney as well, soyou're knowledgeable on the law.
You're just saying their ownattorneys.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (57:03):
Right, I will give them legal information
, but I can't give them legaladvice.
So I can tell them, forinstance, what is the expected
amount of child support.
If people are making thisamount and they have two kids, I
can tell them.
That's an information question.
Emma Viglucci (57:21):
Gotcha, gotcha.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (57:22):
If one of them wants more or wants to pay
less, I can't advise themwhether they should accept that
deal or not.
That's advice, not information.
That might go into.
Well, what else are they doing?
They want to the.
This person wants to pay less,but they're giving you the house
, including five hundredthousand dollars in equity, for
(57:44):
free as part of the deal.
Okay, that's you know.
That's something you needadvice about and I won't.
I won't give that advicebecause it's really it's not an
information question gotchainteresting right.
Emma Viglucci (57:55):
So you just clarify all the information and
they could take that and realizeokay, how do I use that to best
suit me and make choices?
Very nice, okay, lovely, thankyou for that distinction.
That's great, thank you allright my love, any other last
minute thoughts that you want toshare with the audience, any
takeaways, any parting words, um, I just wanted to say that.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (58:18):
Um, I the way I do mediation is very easy
to try it.
I charge on a session bysession basis, so you don't have
money tied into the process,and I like doing it that way
because it lets people try itout, it lets people, it keeps me
on my toes and people know thatI'm on my toes because if I do
(58:39):
something wrong they're notgoing to come back.
Emma Viglucci (58:42):
You're working for it Exactly and I'm proving
myself session by session.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (58:48):
And after a session, after two sessions.
People trust me and they knowwho I am.
They know I'm, I'm legitimateand I most of the time.
Emma Viglucci (58:56):
I finish the case excellent good, yeah, amazing,
I like being.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (59:02):
I like having skin in the game, just
like my clients have skin in thegame, you know yes, lovely,
very, very nice, cool.
Emma Viglucci (59:10):
so the last thought as to like, how should
the people be when they gothrough a divorce?
How do they show up with theirbest self, like, what's the
advice?
That's like this is how youensure, to the best that you can
, that you will have a betterprocess, like you know, like
that, those kinds of words.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (59:29):
I wouldn't really advise them about that.
They come in and I will helpthem figure out how to be as we
go ahead and they'll see whatworks and what doesn't and you
know, I'll help them with theirprocess and get them to a result
.
Emma Viglucci (59:44):
Answer like a true mediator.
I love it.
Terrific.
Very, very nice, glenn.
Excellent.
So now I know you have an offerfor people who want to try you
out.
You usually your your.
I think you said consultationis already free, but then you, I
always offer I always offer afree consultation for um anybody
who's thinking about workingwith me.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (01:00:06):
But if anybody um after seeing this, um
hearing this podcast or seeingum this recording comes to me
from that, I will give them thesecond hour of my services
entirely free.
That's so that people are justusing me to get free services.
But if they're serious aboutusing me their second hour, will
(01:00:27):
be free.
Emma Viglucci (01:00:28):
Terrific, that's so generous.
Thank you my pleasure.
So I so appreciate you sharingyour time with me.
Your wisdom, your process is so, so lovely, as I witnessed I
had, like I said earlier, thehonor of witnessing myself, so
yay, and the way that youdescribed it totally captured
all of that.
So, so, so beautiful.
So again, thank you so much forbeing here today with me and
(01:00:49):
sharing time with me.
Glenn Dornfeld, Esq. (01:00:51):
Thank you for sharing your time with me
and thank you for thisopportunity, and it was good to
get to know you better, so Iappreciate that too.
Emma Viglucci (01:00:58):
You're most welcome, and likewise into the
audience.
I will see you at the next one.
Bye.
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