November 6, 2024 • 52 mins
We are totally in love and decide to go exclusive, move in together, get engaged, get married, have children… But wait, we have to consider what’s the best way to go about the practical side of these steps…
When we fall in love and are feeling all mushy, we don’t usually consider the practical strategies that might be helpful to have in place to create a smooth and harmonious life… We don’t consider what might be needed to be protected against unfortunate events and to create safety in the relationship.
Prenups, postnups and the like might get a bad rap for representing cautiousness about the partner and what their future might hold.
But there is so much more that goes along with creating legal documents and having financial strategies in our relationship. The documents and strategies don’t exist in a vacuum. They are part of a more meaningful conversation and a larger plan that protects the partners and their future.
What I love about this topic is that having these adulting pieces in place creates emotional security as well. The relationship dynamics are no longer informed by possible powerplays, doubt, fear, distrust, lack and so on. Everyone knows where they stand and the status of things, and are off on equitable and transparent footing. Which actually is a healthy way to start a joint life…
In this episode, I have a phenomenal conversation with Leona Krasner, a Family Attorney, about all the different legal needs throughout the lifespan of a relationship. We cover dating to post divorce if that’s the couple’s fate, and special circumstances that might arise. We have a lighthearted and very warm and mushy conversation considering the topic.
Super thoughtful and resourceful.
Hope you enjoy it!
*Visit the Episode’s Page for the Video, related content, info about the guest, other resources AND to get our FREE Relationship Enrichment Mini Course!
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DISCLAIMER: This content is meant to support your Journey and not as a replacement for professional assistance. Additionally, the ideas and resources provides by our guests are their ideas and recommendations alone and not necessarily a reflection of the host’s.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Emma Viglucci (00:00):
Hello, lovelies, and welcome to another episode.
I am so excited for today'sconversation I have with Leona
Krasner, who is a familyattorney, and we cover all of
the different legal things thatcouples might need in their life
, throughout their marriage andlifetime.
So not only do we cover whathappens from the beginning of
(00:24):
moving in together and possiblythen getting engaged all through
the way to the end of later inlife in the relationship and
possibly, if they happen to godown the path of divorce, what
are some things to consider anddo about that.
We cover so many yummy thingsthat people might not think
(00:45):
about when they're first gettingtogether, to prepare them for a
journey that's satisfying andworry-free, so that you prepare
for the future, no matter whatthe future holds, and they
create security and stabilityand smoothness in the life from
the beginning.
Stay tuned, you're in for atreat in the life from the
beginning.
Stay tuned, you're in for atreat.
Let me read you her bio andthen we'll say hello to Leona.
(01:16):
Leona Krasner is a founder andmanaging partner of Krasnet Law,
a family law firm helping folksin New York and New Jersey with
their family law needs.
Leona works to ensure that sheand her team provide compassion,
solution-focused and flawlessexecution for each client.
When not practicing law, leonaenjoys helping students attain
merit-based scholarships throughher company Krasnit Review,
(01:37):
organizing concerts for childrenthrough her nonprofit
organization Tools for Tots andTeens, and having adventures
with her husband andtwo-year-old.
Without further ado, here'sLeona.
Hello Leona, so good to haveyou here today, thank you Such a
pleasure to be here.
I'm super excited for thisconversation.
(01:59):
A lot of times when couples gettogether they don't think of
these things.
We're going to be talking aboutall things legal, so just the
practical of life, not theromantical.
The practical, becausesometimes we get too mushy and
we forget to take care ofbusiness right.
So we're going to help themthink of all the things that
they need to think about so thattheir relationship and their
(02:19):
life runs smoothly and withoutmany hiccups, hopefully.
Leona Krasner (02:24):
I love it.
Life runs smoothly and withoutmany hiccups.
Hopefully I love it, and theidea is that the mushy is
important and we're often mushyat the very beginning, right?
So what steps can we put inplace at the beginning, middle
and beyond, such that thingsremain wonderful and you guys
are protected?
Emma Viglucci (02:43):
Oh, I love that Exactly.
So I think that might cover whyit's important for people to
think about the legalities oflife, right, but do you want to
say a little bit more about that?
Like, why should they eventhink about this stuff?
If they're in love andeverything's beautiful and they
want to have a happy lifeforever, they don't believe in
divorce and they're going to betogether forever, why should
(03:04):
they think about these things?
Leona Krasner (03:06):
So the biggest reason why your relationship
doesn't work out, in myexperience as a family lawyer,
is due to finances, inparticular.
Not knowing about the financeseither mutual finances or the
other partner's financesfinances or the other partner's
(03:28):
finances and having there be asituation of financial control
or a gambling issue or a debtissue or a secret wealth issue.
These are the kinds of thingsthat really break up
relationships and marriages.
And so, from the get-go, beingvery clear and open and honest
about what exists and also aboutwhat the plan needs to be going
(03:48):
forward is a lovely startingpoint, such that it just that's
how we began the relationship.
That is how we continue therelationship.
My husband and I do what'scalled financial review Supposed
to do it every month, rightwhen I built out a spreadsheet
of all of our different accountsand we pop in there, review it
(04:09):
all, so we know and have thattransparency of what's going on,
and that really reduces thestress, I'd say, for both of us.
Emma Viglucci (04:18):
I love that.
Definitely, building andpractices is very important,
right?
So maybe we could talk moreabout that as we go.
And I love what you said, thatfinances is one of the biggest
thing.
Usually, when people come to usfor couples therapy, some of the
misconceptions are.
Or when I hear people outsideof the context of therapy,
they're like, oh well, he or shecheated.
(04:39):
Therefore, that's how you getdivorced and, from my experience
, that is not the reason peopleget divorced.
And thank you for confirmingthat, because, yes, we do get
through infidelity most of thetime and skate, that's usually
not the reason why people getdivorced.
So, yay, thank you for that.
So money, it makes sense.
It makes sense.
So it's not even that we havenothing in common anymore.
(05:01):
We don't get along.
We can't have the fun thingsthing coming anymore.
We don't get along.
We can't have the fun things.
These are the things thattrouble people.
That's why they come to couplestherapy.
Right, they think that thosethings are going to lead to
divorce.
So, nope, we can work throughthose things.
That's so funny, I love it.
So we're going to have afinancial conversation alongside
a legal conversation, it soundslike.
So this is so fun, not my cupof tea.
(05:22):
So I'm so happy to have expertson for these kinds of things,
so happy that you're here forthis.
So why don't we start at thebeginning of the relationship?
A couple decides to move intogether, maybe give it a trial
run, right what might be somelegal things that they might
want to consider slash financialto set things on the right path
so that they prevent messeslater, or just to address some
(05:45):
of the things that you mentioned.
Leona Krasner (05:47):
Okay.
So, relationships going well.
You guys like each other enoughto want to move in together.
That is awesome.
What I think is very importantis to get a good sense of sort
of what is it going to look liketo pay for the things, right?
So who's paying the rent?
Is that going to be split ornot?
(06:09):
Who's paying utilities?
Who's paying for Netflix?
Who's paying for groceries?
I mean, truly right.
I think those are importantquestions.
To just make sure it's clear,make sure it's written down in
some capacity.
Does it need to be a formalcontract?
Not necessarily.
Unless you guys have beenliving together for a very long
(06:31):
period years and years then youmay want to think about it.
But even getting into some formof writing text message, email,
hey.
So here's the plan as Iunderstand it.
Right, it could be friendly.
You like this person, right?
You're living with them.
Hopefully, things are wonderful, but having a clear
understanding of who's payingfor what I think is very helpful
(06:56):
.
Emma Viglucci (06:57):
And that spreadsheet that you mentioned
before that you do with yourhusband is a perfect example of
this.
This is how we're tracking ourstuff.
There's the documentation rightoff the bat.
So not that you're tracking anddocumenting things for the
worst case scenario, but just sothat life is easier.
There's no misunderstandings,everything's clear.
You're just setting a goodprecedent for yourself and for
the relationship, setting goodhabits.
(07:17):
Yes.
Leona Krasner (07:19):
I think that's correct.
Emma Viglucci (07:19):
Very good Good.
Leona Krasner (07:37):
So what kind of contrast would they consider if
they've been together for alittle, say, they are avid
collectors of records or beaniebabies or whatever.
They're collecting some sortsof stuff.
What happens, god forbid, ifthe relationship doesn't work
out?
What does that look like?
These are called palimony typecontracts and I see and create
(08:01):
those on occasion.
Very good, okay, perfect.
Emma Viglucci (08:02):
That's good to know and I love the idea of like
Very good, Okay, perfect,that's good to know, and I love
the idea of like have your life,do your thing, but just have an
understanding of what mighthappen and have more clarity on
you know who's this, what or howyou might address this in the
uneventful, eventful, uneventfulthing that might happen.
Leona Krasner (08:22):
One thing also that's very important is anytime
you are making more expensivepurchases.
Say, you guys live in a housetogether and there's a pool and
it's the other person's house,but you pay $10,000 to have the
pool fixed.
Take a screenshot with yourphone of proof that you paid the
10,000, right, the invoice, thereceipt, proof of payment.
(08:45):
Go ahead, take a picture,Because I've got a whole lot of
cases where somebody pays forsomething.
Many decades go by and then yougo to the bank going hey, show
me proof of that time that Ipaid for this.
Sorry, we don't keep recordsthat far, so it's your
obligation to keep that record.
(09:07):
Okay, and with your phone, justtake that screenshot real easy.
Email it to yourself such thatyou will always have it if you
ever need it.
Emma Viglucci (09:14):
Yep, yep, yep.
You know what a goodobservation.
Because we used to have.
The banks used to give you allthe records once upon a time,
right?
Or they used to mail you thestatements and they had the
copies of all the checks thatyou wrote, right, like?
This is really old school thatdoesn't exist anymore.
So, yes, what is your littlesystem for saving things, right?
So I have a folder where, like,oh, the receipts go into a
folder, so perfect.
(09:36):
If I ever need anything, youcan dig into that folder, you
know, for whatever reason.
So it doesn't have to becomplicated, right?
Just keep everything in oneplace, a file.
It could even be a shared file,like if you're in good terms,
but just keep the records.
Leona Krasner (09:48):
Be careful about the shared file, because if
things go badly and thensomebody goes in there and
erases everything in the sharedfile, that would not be good.
Yeah, yeah.
Emma Viglucci (10:00):
That's true, you know I'm wondering how and this
is getting a little too techienow, but you know, with backups,
right, so but then that getsinto like you have to track all
the old versions of things, sothere's overrides and stuff, but
yeah, but you're right.
So watch out for that.
You might want to keep your ownlittle things, Squirrel your
(10:21):
stuff away, you know.
Leona Krasner (10:23):
I recommend.
It's really easy Take a picturewith your phone and then send
it to yourself as an email, toyour personal email.
That's it, you're going to haveit forever.
Knock on wood.
Generally speaking, we keep ouremail addresses kind of forever
.
It's rare for them to be closedor shut down, so that's going
to be a nice way to be able tolater find that thing, should
(10:43):
you ever need it, but label itwith the date and a description,
so it's not going to be asdifficult to find God forbid,
should you need it in the future.
Emma Viglucci (10:52):
Right, and you could tag it, you could label,
you could create a folder inyour email server and just put
all those things in one place.
That's another way, yeah forsure, yeah, create a little
system.
It doesn't have to becomplicated, all right.
So the next level would be oh,we're liking each other even
more.
We do want to make this moreserious.
Now we're thinking of gettingmarried, we get engaged.
Now there is the ring.
(11:14):
People have all kinds ofquestions about this ring.
Leona Krasner (11:17):
Any thoughts about that and how to prepare
for marriage in terms of legalterms, all right, so I will
happily talk about the ring,should the parties decide that
there are issues once they'remarried and they no longer wish
to be together.
What's important?
Emma Viglucci (11:34):
if you have, or even I'm sorry.
So even if, or what if theybreak up before they actually
get married?
Maybe that's the question.
First with this ring right.
Leona Krasner (11:41):
Okay.
So they're engaged.
They didn't get married.
There's no prenup.
What do we do, right?
So the courts are pretty splitabout who owns the ring.
So often parties need to agree.
They need to come to some sortof understanding regarding what
is going to happen as it relatesto the ring.
So my advice is this this isbigger than the ring
(12:04):
conversation.
I would say, yes, have theimportant conversations about
your values and what you wantlong-term, early on.
All right.
So not maybe the first date.
Hi, how are you?
How many kids do you want?
Not that right.
You don't do that.
But you know like I think I hadthese conversations with my
(12:25):
husband over like our second,third, fourth, fifth dates
Earlier on.
You don't want to be dating thisperson for five years before
you realize they don't wantchildren and you do, or they
don't believe in marriage andyou've been waiting for a ring
for four years, right?
So getting a sense of what doyou value?
Do you want to live in the cityor do you want to live in a
(12:47):
house, somewhere?
That's very important.
Do you want to have zerochildren?
One kid, 10 kids, somethingdifferent?
Do you like animals?
Right?
What's the long term plan?
What is your approach aroundmoney.
Have these kinds ofconversations early during the
get to know you stage.
Keep in mind you're justgetting to know a person, so no
(13:09):
judgment.
If they disagree, okay, butfind out the answers to those
important questions before youstart banking on a ring that
you're never going to getbecause the other person doesn't
believe in marriage.
Emma Viglucci (13:23):
I love all those examples because those are all
topics that I see when peoplecome in for couples therapy,
right.
So it's so funny that theydon't find these things out
early enough.
They're just banging aroundwith these topics later on and
they're disappointed that theother person is on a different
sphere, right.
So it's okay to be differentpeople.
(13:44):
The partners will be different,right.
That's just, that's the way itis, and they're usually
opposites, so people get hung upon that.
But the values thing is very,very important, and the vision,
and sometimes we could get onthe same page about those things
too.
Nothing's impossible.
But if it's really really,really discrepant and you're
just not feeling it, too,nothing's impossible.
(14:05):
But if it's really reallyreally discrepant and you're
just not feeling it, then that'sthe cue early on.
So I love that you mentionedthat Very good.
Leona Krasner (14:08):
Think about the non-negotiables Before you're
even dating.
Sorry to go backwards beforeyou're even dating.
What are your non-negotiablesright?
What will one, you not tolerate.
But two, what must you have Forme?
I needed to be with someone whowanted children.
I needed to be with somebodywho wanted to get married,
(14:31):
somebody ambitious, so they'd beout there working because I'm
out there working and I'mlooking for an equal right.
Somebody who could keep up withme sorry, right In conversation
where it's interesting andwe're on the same page.
Somebody who wants to raisechildren in the similar way that
I do.
So, before you even date, whatdo you need?
Emma Viglucci (14:52):
What do you want?
Won't you abide?
Yes, yeah.
So figure that out for yourselffirst, and it doesn't have to
be rigid, because these thingscan be negotiated or come to an
agreement as you go.
But if people are really,really set and like this is the
life that I want, and somebodywants a completely different
life, then that's it right offthe bat, like you know right.
(15:13):
So I love that.
So now going back to the ring,because then let's get the
timetable going, so let's saythat they get engaged, but they
didn't have these conversations.
And all this information comesout now and it's like, oh, maybe
this was not the way to go,because, yeah, you do want to
get married, but you don't wantto have kids, or you want to
(15:34):
have kids, but, gosh, you wantto live under the water and I
want to live on the moon.
And how are we going to makethat work, right?
And so I was like, well, Idon't know, I can't see this
marriage working.
And so maybe they break up, andnow they're wondering what
they're bringing who the ringbelongs to.
I see this here and there.
(15:56):
And so they're not in a courtsystem yet because they're not
married, right, and I don't knowthat people go to court for
this per se they mightno-transcript legally it depends
.
Leona Krasner (16:13):
All right, let's try it as?
All right?
And can I take your example alittle bit further?
Would that be all right?
Yeah, of course.
Hey, these people aren'tmarried, but they got a house
together, they have kidstogether, right?
What does that look likefinancially?
So, in fact, they can go tocourt, and I have several cases
(16:34):
like this now, okay, where, hey,we bought this house together.
I'm on the deed, so is she.
You know, I put down thisamount, she put down that amount
.
Here are all of theimprovements that I made, right?
That's why I said keep track.
It's so important, right, right?
(17:03):
So in that case, where theparties have purchased things
together and then therelationship doesn't work,
they're entitled to their shareof that property, right?
So that is very important tokeep in mind.
Regarding the ring, the ringdepends, but if both parties are
on the deed for a property andthey haven't gotten married,
each is entitled to some portionof that property.
Emma Viglucci (17:18):
So how interesting the way that I
learned this when I, when I wasin graduate school, they made us
take a family law course, right, and so one of the things that
we were taught about this, andtell me if this, this is Ian's
ago, so tell me if this is stilla thing in the legal system,
maybe it's outdated.
It doesn't work like this, Idon't know.
And what I learned was that thering belongs depends on how the
(17:39):
ring was given.
If it was given as a gift, fora holiday, then it's a gift.
Then it belongs to the person,the woman usually.
And so if you give it to me formy birthday, for Christmas, for
Hanukkah, whatever, then it'smine because it's a gift.
But if you just give it to meon any occasion, now it's a
contract to get married.
If we're not getting married,then the contract is dissolved.
(18:01):
Then the ring comes back to mebecause the contract wasn't
honored.
That's how I learned it, but Idon't know what do you think
about that?
Is that cold water?
Leona Krasner (18:12):
So both people, generally speaking, want the
ring and are fighting over it,and so each will bring different
arguments to the table.
Okay, so that theory is onetheory I hear sometimes and it
makes sense logically.
To me it seems to make sense.
(18:33):
It really depends.
Is the ring an heirloom thatthe guy or gal got from a
relative right?
Is it something else Were thestones from?
You know what I mean?
There's a lot that goes on whenit comes to these rings.
Okay, so I appreciate youdigging a little bit deeper.
(18:55):
It really depends on the factsof the case.
Emma Viglucci (18:58):
Very good, yeah, as with anything, right, like
all these cases, the lowest, thelower, therapies, therapy.
But you can't just apply anover like, overarching, just
umbrella statement to everything.
You have to play with thespecifics of each couple or case
.
Yes, I appreciate that, thankyou.
All right, so now moving thiscouple along, they do get
(19:19):
married.
Actually, yes, before they getmarried, around the time of
getting married, they do aprenup, or they might consider
doing a prenup, or what are yourthoughts on this?
Leona Krasner (19:46):
What makes sense for couples, all right.
So the media portrays prenupsas this sneaky thing that rich
people push upon poor people orpeople they want to take
advantage of at the very lastsecond and force them to sign A
couple of things.
To me, a prenup means you getto see the other person's
financial screenshot.
Right, you know what they'rebringing into the marriage and
you know that you know, because,should they quote unquote
forget about any accounts or anyproperty that later is
(20:09):
discovered, that prenup goes outthe window for you, okay, and
you're entitled to some portionof the marital share of such
accounts, perhaps their growthor something like that, because
the other person was dishonest.
Okay, this lets you know whateach person is coming into the
marriage with how much they earn, what they have in their
(20:31):
accounts right now, how muchdebt they have, what they have
in their accounts right now, howmuch debt they have, any stuff
that they are.
You know, physical propertythat they may not have told you
about.
This is all useful informationthat, shockingly often, people
don't know about their partner,even when they've been married 5
, 10, 20, 30, 40 years.
(20:51):
This is vital information ifyou're entering into a serious,
long-term marriage.
That's very important.
What else is important is themaking of the plan as it relates
to finances right, definingwhat's marital versus what is
separate.
But really, when we talk aboutwhat is considered marital
(21:13):
property, right, honey, like,how are we going to live our
lives?
Into which account or accountsis our paycheck, our respective
paychecks, going to go into?
How often are we going to goout?
What are we saving up for?
What are we doing regardingvacations?
Right, here's the time to chatabout money and what that's
(21:36):
going to look like.
So it's not.
Oh well, I'm going to collectyour paycheck and my paycheck
and you're going to have to cometo me for permission to use any
money, right, whoa, whoa, whoa,whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Right, having this conversationbefore y'all get married means
you're way less likely to make aboo-boo, right, and you get to
set the ground rules regardingthat.
Regarding spousal support oralimony, thinking about the
(21:59):
future, you know what?
Whether you want the law togovern or you want to say
nobody's getting spousal support, that's another conversation
that can be had here Now.
Prenups don't discuss kids inany capacity whatsoever, or else
they're invalidated.
But this is the springboard tohave very important
conversations, to hopefully doall you can to guarantee the
(22:22):
success of your relationship.
Emma Viglucci (22:25):
Oh, I love that so pretty.
There was something that youmentioned the different accounts
and what's marital assets andwhat's individual assets or
personal assets, so people thatcome in with.
So let me clarify this formyself first, so make sure that
(22:48):
I ask you the right question.
So once you're married,anything that's earned
thereafter is considered maritalassets, is that right?
Leona Krasner (22:56):
Typically yes.
Absence or prenup typically yes.
Emma Viglucci (22:59):
Right, okay, perfect.
So then what's considerednon-marital assets is stuff that
people brought into therelationship, correct.
But if they play around withthe accounts or they use the
money in different ways, then itgets commingled and then
becomes marital assets.
So it's no longer your moneyNow, it becomes our money, kind
of thing.
Is that right?
It depends.
(23:19):
It depends Okay, fair enough.
Depends on what the thing is,that you put a pull in or what
did you do with the money.
Just kidding, okay.
So any other clarity about that?
Like, what should peopleconsider if they worry about
protecting what they're bringinginto their marriage, anything
that they need to put in placeat that juncture then, so that
(23:39):
it doesn't get commingled in away that they don't think about?
That might mess them up.
Leona Krasner (23:44):
So, generally speaking, at this point, folks
are often entering intomarriages a little bit later in
life and not 18, 19, 20, 21.
At least here in New York andNew Jersey, where I practice,
right so folks typically havetheir accounts and their own
names already set up.
That's usually before folks getmarried, where the paycheck
(24:06):
goes, right.
So they need to take the activestep of creating one or more
accounts together, right?
So the idea is, I think, thathaving the conversations
regarding kind of what the planis is important, and to be sort
of mindful of what you're doing,right.
So where does the moneycurrently go?
(24:27):
If you guys are looking to makea certain purchase where
separate assets are appliedtowards the marital property
that's going to be purchased,keep track, take those
screenshots, send them to youremail such that you have them
for the future.
Emma Viglucci (24:48):
So it boils down to what you contributed to
anything that's joined and keeptrack of what you contributed.
That's kind of how you keep itseparate for later.
If you need it later, gotcha,very good, okay.
Leona Krasner (24:59):
Exactly.
The aim is to be prepared.
I want your relationship towork forever.
I don't want you to have toneed me for your divorce or your
custody matter or whatever itis, although I'm here if I
become necessary.
The idea is I to put the piecesand the steps and the
procedures into place such thatI'm not ever necessary.
Emma Viglucci (25:21):
Yeah, that's lovely.
Thank you for that.
Okay, so now they're likeperfect, we have a prenup, we're
feeling really safe and secure.
I don't feel like I'm going tobe taken advantage of or that
I'm going to take advantage ofyou and vice versa.
I'm comfy, I'm going to takeadvantage of you and vice versa.
I'm comfy, I'm feeling safe.
The mushy feelings are stillhere.
We're going along with themarriage.
Everything's feeling nice.
What might be some things atthat juncture that people might
(25:46):
want to consider, once they havethat commitment in place, any
other legal matters that theyshould be putting in place for
themselves as a couple?
Leona Krasner (25:50):
Okay, so are we still we're engaged getting
married, or have we alreadygotten married?
Emma Viglucci (25:56):
At this point I think we got married, we're like
each other a lot and we'refeeling safe with this prenup,
so we're ready to go Amazing.
Leona Krasner (26:03):
All right, marriage has happened.
It was fantastic, right.
So now, making clear sort ofwhat the plan is as it relates
to finances, assets, that kindof thing, keeping track and
checking in, right.
So is there the joint account?
Which of you?
So both of you should haveaccess right Into that joint
(26:25):
account.
Both of you should be named onthat account, have access.
What monies are going into thataccount?
What monies are leaving thataccount and for what?
Okay, making plans, right.
Having the conversations aboutwhat the plans are for the
future and what your goals areright, talking about where you
(26:47):
all see each other in five to 10years, et cetera, sort of
what's the plan?
Is it the house?
Is it the children?
Is it a move somewhere?
Is it an upgrade to a bigger,better, you know property that
you guys are currently living in?
Sort of what does that looklike?
You know what's the situationas it relates to vehicles?
(27:07):
That's right.
Continuing to have thoseconversations, being open and
honest with one another andbeing curious, right.
So year seven is rumored andthere's research actually that
backs it up.
Year seven is supposed to bethe most difficult one.
We're after seven yearstogether.
(27:27):
So, interesting, right, that'sthe real test of the marriage,
right, and a lot of you knowrelationships can flounder at
this point, right?
So be curious about the otherperson, right, greet them and be
excited to greet them when theycome home.
One time I came home, husbanddidn't say hello.
(27:48):
I'm like, excuse me, hi, I'mhappy to see you.
Right, so we had this littlechat.
Oh, I love that.
Good for you, right?
So we had this little chat.
I love that.
Good for you.
Thank you for that beingexcited and showing that
excitement to see the otherperson.
We do a little something, myhusband, that I call a
relationship review, right,where we sit down every Sunday
(28:10):
evening First thank the otherperson for all the ways they
went above and beyond that week,then talk about what specific
instances could have gone better, right?
So, adjectives, we're nottalking about the past, we're
talking about the last week,right?
What could have gone better?
What do you need to do to makesure that that thing that either
(28:34):
happened or didn't happendoesn't ever happen again?
Right?
Emma Viglucci (28:38):
And then you debrief tweak, right, that is so
good.
I'm not going to put you in thespot and ask you if you guys
have been to couples therapy.
You don't have to answer that.
But this is fabulous becauseall these tools and things that
you have in place and practicesare all things that we teach our
couples to be preventative andto get on the same page and to
synchronize and to create thelove and to the appreciation and
(29:00):
to nurture the things and toaddress the things.
So thank you so much forreinforcing that.
Coming from a family lawyer,people Yay, so good.
Thank you for that, very good.
Leona Krasner (29:10):
And then, before you nag right, it becomes really
easy to get into the spirit ofnagging right, oh gosh yes.
So think about the naggers inyour life and think about how
they make you feel every singletime that they nag.
Is that the kind of feelingthat you want to be pushing on
your partner in life, or do youwant to cultivate a relation of
(29:34):
gratitude and thankfulness?
Will you thank the personthroughout the week for the
things that they do and givethem a little bit of grace,
understanding that they'reprobably also leading a little
bit of a difficult you know,stressful life, where things
sometimes happen and thosethings that you want to nag
about you can save forrelationship review time,
especially after you thank themfor all the things that they did
(29:56):
.
Emma Viglucci (29:57):
Oh my gosh, that's so beautiful.
Yeah, like I like to say, yourpartners are also on a journey,
right, they're not going to beperfect.
Also, and it's okay to havethat grace.
It's imperative that you havethat grace because otherwise
you're always going to beunhappy, people are not going to
be, they're not going to beperfect.
So if you're looking for that,you could always be dissatisfied
.
And having that grace andshowing that appreciation
ongoingly, yes, that's the keyIn that abundant and generous
(30:23):
and compassionate heart so good.
So now we're being preventative, we're being loving, we're
investing in all of the rightways, we're nurturing the
relationship.
We're preventing crazy thingsIn terms of planning anything
else legal at this juncture,what else might people be
(30:43):
considering?
Leona Krasner (30:44):
Okay, so as you grow wealth and may become very
wealthy, you're going to want tobegin to speak with
professionals.
Okay, so you're going to wantto begin to speak with
professionals.
Okay, so you're going to wantto look into finding a financial
advisor to advise about whatthat looks like.
As we enter, you know, theperiod where folks may want to
(31:07):
have children or not, or doggiesor kitties, right Speaking with
a a wills and trust, trust andestate attorney to help create
those documents.
For God forbid, what if?
Emma Viglucci (31:20):
right, if you guys have children?
Leona Krasner (31:22):
God forbid you both die, right?
What's going to happen to yourchildren, right?
What that's going to look like.
Or without children, right?
What's going to happen to allyour stuff?
What is going to look like aswell?
So having those conversationsat the stage I'd say is very
important as well, like stateplanning kind of stuff.
Emma Viglucci (31:41):
Very nice.
Yes, trust for the kids,possibly when you're doing your
financial planning, depends onhow much wealth you have built
or you have brought into themarriage to deal with all that
stuff.
Anything on insurances thatyou're able to throw into this
mix, or maybe just refer them tomake sure you covered that you
have enough insurances in allthe right places.
Leona Krasner (32:02):
Right so, speaking with a financial
advisor who's well-versed, rightso, maybe speaking offline with
me or with Emma to see who werecommend in that respect,
someone who really is able tobring all of the tools and all
of the vehicles to theconversation to see who we
recommend in that respect,someone who really is able to
bring all of the tools and allof the vehicles to the
conversation to see what kindsof insurance would make the most
sense.
Right so my husband, severalmonths ago, took a fall, broke
(32:25):
his wrist right.
It sucked.
Right so, had he had certainkinds of insurance?
We actually, very funnilyenough, were in a bathhouse with
another couple and one of thosepeople was our financial
advisor.
Right so he was there.
So after the fact he told usabout, you know, insurance that
would have assisted withfinancial difficulties.
(32:46):
God forbid that ever happenagain.
Right?
So, thinking about what thatlooks like if one of you is a
business owner, you know what itwould look like if you God
forbid were, due to a medicalissue or something else, were
unable to work for either ashort period of time or extended
period of time.
Right, if you are looking tostart a family, especially if
(33:07):
you are going to be having thechild.
Well, even for both, eitherparty, right.
Is there a way that you canqualify for some sort of
insurance such that you can getpaid during this time?
Looking into supplementalinsurance of that sort and
getting educated on that?
I think that's very important.
Speaking with a CPA, criticalright, having a professional who
(33:30):
can assist in that regard, andtalking about setting up
education accounts.
We start hours up with ourfinancial advisor, right?
So if there's a child orchildren or one or more coming,
making sure that that account isset up.
So, speaking with aprofessional who's really well
versed in all this differentstuff that you might not even
know that you need, but to themthey will be able to guide you a
(33:53):
little bit more.
I am a family lawyer.
I do not do financial advising,but just from my own experience
, I found this to be helpful.
Emma Viglucci (34:02):
Yeah, yeah, thank you for that.
You know it's so interestingSometimes when the insurance
conversation comes up in anycontext.
It's kind of okay.
So you need the homeowners, thehealth insurance, the life
insurance, the disabilityinsurance, the disinsurance, the
car insurance, like all of theinsurances you know, and if you
have a business, that there's awhole other gamut there.
And then they get, when you geta little older, the long-term
insurance and, like you know,all these other things.
(34:23):
So, definitely having aprofessional to advise you what
stage of life, what might youneed and what kind of policies
or vehicles, and even eveninvestment vehicles, so like,
like, if you're having afinancial conversation, all
these things definitely add toyour wealth, into your
well-being overall in life.
(34:44):
So beautiful, all right.
So at this juncture, let's saythat people have been together
for a few years but they forgotto do the pre, do the prenup oh,
they, that too, or whatever thestory might be and they might
consider a post-nap Any thoughtsat that point what that might
look like?
Leona Krasner (35:01):
So yeah, absolutely.
We help folks with post-napsall the time.
And the reasons whypredominantly folks get
post-naps are as follow.
One, they were going to get aprenup and, gosh darn it, they
got married first.
So shortly after, right,shortly after they get married,
they really want to do thisthing.
So I'd say, you know, within ayear or two they want to get a
(35:25):
post-nup for the same reasonsthey wanted to get a prenup
Gotcha Nice.
Another reason is the financiallandscape for one or both
parties changes.
Third, the relationship is notdoing so well and one party goes
listen.
Either you and I talk aboutthis and you know we come to
(35:45):
some sort of agreement and bothexecute this document, or I'm
going to divorce you.
And so those tend to be thethree main reasons why people
get post-nuptial agreements youknow, I like that third one.
Emma Viglucci (35:59):
I think that what happens a lot also is like
people like, oh, we might notmake it, but I want to work on
it, but just in case it doesn't.
Well, so so to feel safe, whilewe'll try to make it work, can
we please put this in place so Icould be invested still
invested in this and not beworried?
Correct, yeah, very nice, good,all right.
And then what if it doesn'twork and they're like, okay, and
(36:25):
they didn't do a post-nap, andnow they're heading down the
lane of divorce?
Yes, any thoughts I'm sure youhave plenty of.
What's the best way to go aboutthat so that they don't destroy
themselves, their families,their future and create more
drama than necessary?
What's the easiest, simplest,most beautiful way that people
could tackle about gettingdivorced, going about a divorce?
Leona Krasner (36:48):
So my advice is this I'll be touchy-feely first,
then I'll be a little morepractical after yes, good.
So have your support network.
So my advice is this I'll betouchy-feely first, then I'll be
a little more practical afteryes.
So have your support networkthat you need to get taken care
(37:15):
of is taken care of with them,and then have your team to get
the practical work done.
Okay, because often what I seeand I don't mind this at all
right, but I see folks come tome and give me the venting
emotional.
I'm just going to take him forwhat they're worth, right.
But I see folks come to me andgive me the venting emotional.
I'm just going to take him forwhat they're worth, right.
(37:37):
I'm going to not stop until Iblah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
I'm going to use the kids asweapons.
Stop, stop, right, hold on,hold on.
Yeah, get the venting done outof the way and then think about
what you really need, what thekids really need.
(37:57):
Yeah, I'm ready to go to theringers and really make a messy
divorce.
That takes a long time.
It's crazy expensive.
That's what really whatsomebody wants, right?
I'm handling a divorce that'son year seven approximately,
where they're fighting abouttoys, trains and tools.
(38:17):
What come on they could havebought so many extra toys,
trains and tools with the moneythey've been wasting on this
really dumb divorce.
We're in trial about bullshit.
Sorry, emma, right.
Why are we arguing aboutstupidity when y'all could have
(38:37):
moved on such a long time ago,right?
So have your venting people.
Get your professionals, getyour Emma, get Emma.
Emma Viglucci (38:46):
I was just going to throw in there, like you know
, like venting even to familymember and friends.
You have to watch that too,because that just creates a
whole other set of things aswell.
So, yes, of course, havesupport and know how to use your
support, but definitely have atherapist, because all that
stuff, the hooks, that's whyyou're in a divorce for seven
years.
That's not.
You know what I mean.
There's a lot of stuff going onthere.
Leona Krasner (39:07):
Therapy will help and help you, not do a stuff
messy you will help and and helpyou not to stop messy so you
torture your life.
Keep in mind all it takes for adivorce to eventually go
through is for one person towant the divorce.
I still love you, I still miss.
One person needs to feel asthough the relationship is
(39:30):
irretrievable, irreconcilablybroken down.
Emma Viglucci (39:35):
It only takes one I know right.
Leona Krasner (39:40):
So having that professional, having Emma, in
place to assist you with theemotional kind of impact of this
trauma just trauma, it is right, not an easy breezy, beautiful
thing.
Generally, right, deal withthat part and then really
thinking about what you wantpost-relationship, what's
(40:03):
important to you, and thenspeaking with an attorney who
can guide you on what you'reactually entitled to, right?
I mean, if the person on theother side only makes $100,000
per year but you want $20,000 ofalimony a month, there's not
(40:24):
enough money, it's not realistic, right?
Right?
So talking with a family lawyerand I'm happy to give a free
consultation for whoever needsregarding what you're actually
entitled to, perhaps you havebeen the person making more
money in this relationship,Right?
What's what some certainexpectations can be on your end
(40:48):
regarding having to pay spousalsupport or alimony to the other
partner, having to even maybepay counsel fees to the other
side, whether you want thisdivorce or not.
Having a clear understanding andclear expectations from the
get-go, such that you don't getto court and scream and yell
about something that there justisn't any likelihood that you
(41:11):
can get.
But gosh, darn it, you want toyell it because you're mad.
That could be very expensive interms of council fees.
But it can be even moreexpensive in terms of parts of
your life, just years and yearsof your life just I don't want
to say wasted, but just spent onthe stuff that could have ended
(41:32):
quicker and you could havemoved on to a much happier,
healthier life sooner.
Emma Viglucci (41:37):
Oh, my goodness, that's so beautiful.
Thank you, yes, I mean themoney is expensive financially,
but it's expensive to your soul,it's expensive to your
lifestyle, it's expensive toyour relationships, to your
timetable, your life journey.
Like it's expensive, right,like why are you wasting it this
way Just fighting over sillythings?
(41:57):
Potentially?
You're just being stubborn andit's sometimes unrealistic stuff
, like you know, like the$20,000 example, if you can't
get it, why are you stillfighting for it?
It's not going to happen,there's no money, you're not
going to, you can't get money.
That isn't there.
(42:18):
Yeah, I see some sometimes thatkind of silly stuff happens Me
too, I'm sure you do.
That's what you do for a living.
God bless you, Okay.
So now people hopefully theywere smart about it, they did
the emotional work on the sideso they don't bring that to the
legal process and they coulddisentangle appropriately and
kindly and intentionally andmindfully to the best that they
(42:40):
can.
And they are fair, whateverfair means, and everybody's as
happy as they could be with howthe decisions played out and now
we're post-divorce.
But there are some things thatcould still play out right
Post-divorce.
What might some of those thingsbe in terms of the divorce
process?
Leona Krasner (43:01):
So typically when folks get divorced right, so
there's an order.
There are things that one orboth parties need to do.
For example, somebody, ifthey're children, probably needs
to pay child support, someportion of add-on expenses.
Add-ons include in New York andNew Jersey, but are not limited
to unreimbursed medicalexpenses, education-related
(43:23):
expenses, extracurricularexpenses, summer care, child
camp, extraordinary expenses,right?
So one party may have to paythose or some portion thereof
and they don't.
Perhaps a house needs to getsold and isn't, or somebody
sells it and doesn't give anymoney or the right amount of
money to the other person, asthey were supposed to do it.
(43:45):
For example, someone'swithholding a passport, or the
children or something.
So something that was supposedto have happened in the
agreement isn't happening, right?
So folks may need to go tocourt for something like that.
Emma Viglucci (44:01):
Yeah, okay, and then, assuming that they didn't
get divorced and that thingsworked out well and they're
still married and it's later,they've been together for a
while and they're in life whatmight be some legal things that
might come up later that peoplemight have to deal with?
Um, and maybe I don't know if Ijumped the gun anything about
(44:23):
custody before we move forwardto if there wasn't a divorce.
So let's go back to the divorcestage, to the divorce stage.
So anything to highlight aboutcustody, how to approach that or
to keep in mind or how to goabout that.
Leona Krasner (44:39):
The key, I think, is to think about what is best
for your children.
Right, you might decide youhate the other person with a
fiery, burning passion, but youknow that they're a good parent,
or at least your childrenreally enjoy spending time with
that parent and nothing all thatbad happened.
(44:59):
And even if you don't liketheir new girlfriend or
boyfriend or something like that, right.
So thinking about the childrenfirst and not weaponizing them I
see kids.
Kids weaponized a lot.
Yeah, comes to custody andlisten, custody is a thing,
whether people were married ornot, right?
(45:20):
So folks who are unmarried can,you know, break up and we'll
have to deal with these kinds ofthings.
Don't weaponize the children,right, or they're going to have
to go and see Emma and Emma'scolleagues for basically ever
after because you screwed themup.
Your children don't do it.
(45:44):
It is your obligation as aparent to keep your adult stuff
separate.
Don't stoop to the level thatyou are hurting your kids.
Emma Viglucci (45:56):
Very good, yes, thank you.
Okay, and so now maybe theydidn't get divorced and we're in
that later stage of life, ortogether for a bunch of years,
and like there might be somesome other legal things that we
might have to consider in life,like what might be some other
things.
Leona Krasner (46:19):
So I mean, I'm a family lawyer, so when things
are amazing and folks arecelebrating their 30th, 40th,
50th anniversary hopefullynobody's calling me, right.
If somebody is calling me, it'susually because they've been
married a long time 20 plusyears.
Kids are big, or relatively bighigh school, college beyond,
right.
The kids aren't the thinganymore, right?
(46:40):
So they stuck it out right andare now ready to free themselves
.
So I think, as the children areleaving the nest, think about
whether this relationship suitsyou, whether you come home happy
and it makes you excited andfeel like a load is coming off
(47:01):
your shoulders when you walkthrough that door, or if the
stress is piling on, okay.
And your relationship after thekids are grown is going to be
real, different than your firstand second and third date.
It's going to be different thanthe wedding day, right?
So what are you looking for nowthat the kids are big, right?
(47:23):
How do you want yourrelationship to go?
Or is it?
Do you want it to be done?
Emma Viglucci (47:29):
Right.
Are there matters that you seeat this juncture, like what
might be some either custody orchildren or family issues that
might come up that have nothingto do with the marriage, like
what might be some other legalmatters that, as a family lawyer
, you deal with?
Leona Krasner (47:45):
So often the folks aren't in a good place,
right?
So one parent is withholdingthe children from another.
One parent just leftdisappeared and the other for
years, years, sometimes decades,right, and one person meets
somebody new but is technicallystill married to that other
(48:06):
person.
That's more common, I think,actually right.
You have marriages ofconvenience sometimes, where
somebody you know enters into amarriage to help somebody out,
get a green card right, whateverit is right those kinds of
marriages.
But then they meet somebody theyactually love and want to be
with right.
So there are some sort ofinteresting complications there.
(48:28):
What if one person'swithholding the passport or
refusing to allow the otherparents to renew the passport
right.
But if one person wants tovaccinate the children and the
other person does not, thecourt's position in New York and
New Jersey is what is best forthe children, right.
That is what the courtconsiders to be the most
(48:50):
important, absent really goodreasons.
Generally speaking, the courtsdo think that vaccination is in
the best interest of children,so that's something to keep.
Thank you for sharing that.
Of course, what if one persondevelops drug problem, a
drinking problem, a will notwork, or gets perpetually fired
(49:10):
problem work or gets perpetuallyfired problem?
What if you've got a situationwhere god forbid somebody
develops very seriouspsychiatric issues right.
One person gets really, reallyinjured right.
These kinds of things happenand they have a toll on
marriages sometimes.
So my recommendation is this Irecommend speaking with
(49:35):
professionals right, Schedulinga consultation.
Even if you have no intentionof divorcing ever or say you're
in a culture that doesn'tbelieve in divorce, there are
still options that could protectyou, protect your children and
make clear what the plan shouldbe going forward.
Emma Viglucci (50:00):
Very good and also I think I love that add-on.
You might want to have acouncil so that you know how to
structure or tweak your setup,just so that you feel comfy, so
that you feel safe, so that youfeel secure, just for your own
mental health.
And then, god forbid, somethinggoes wrong.
Then you're set and you're goodto go, but it might be
preventative potentially, or itmight make that life easier
later if you happen to go downthat path.
Very nice, beautiful.
(50:24):
Thank you for walking throughthe legal journey of people, of
couples.
Leona Krasner (50:30):
This was wonderful.
Really enjoyed this chat.
I love the little avenues thatyou allowed me to take and that
we took together, and you werefantastic.
Thank you so much for thisopportunity.
Emma Viglucci (50:42):
Oh, my pleasure.
Thank you, leona, and any lastminutes, like last comment, as a
goodbye closure statement thatyou want to offer the listeners?
Yes.
Leona Krasner (50:52):
Your job is ensuring your happiness, but you
were also in the driver's seatto determine whether you're
pursuing that happiness or not.
My advice for you is this Startpursuing that happiness as soon
as possible, today, right now.
Think about what you need tostart doing in your life right
(51:14):
now.
Whether you're with a partner,not with a partner, dating not
dating married kids.
What do you need to establishin your life so you could be
happy now?
Emma Viglucci (51:26):
Oh, my goodness, you're a breath of fresh air.
Thank you so much for sharingtime with me, wisdom and so much
knowledge.
I really appreciate you andanytime we could have more
conversations.
There's a lot of good stuffhere, so I would love to
continue our relationship inthat way and, to the listeners,
I will see you at the next one.
(51:46):
Bye.
Hello, lovelies, and welcome to another episode.
I am so excited for today'sconversation I have with Leona
Krasner, who is a familyattorney, and we cover all of
the different legal things thatcouples might need in their life
, throughout their marriage andlifetime.
So not only do we cover whathappens from the beginning of
(00:24):
moving in together and possiblythen getting engaged all through
the way to the end of later inlife in the relationship and
possibly, if they happen to godown the path of divorce, what
are some things to consider anddo about that.
We cover so many yummy thingsthat people might not think
(00:45):
about when they're first gettingtogether, to prepare them for a
journey that's satisfying andworry-free, so that you prepare
for the future, no matter whatthe future holds, and they
create security and stabilityand smoothness in the life from
the beginning.
Stay tuned, you're in for atreat in the life from the
beginning.
Stay tuned, you're in for atreat.
Let me read you her bio andthen we'll say hello to Leona.
(01:16):
Leona Krasner is a founder andmanaging partner of Krasnet Law,
a family law firm helping folksin New York and New Jersey with
their family law needs.
Leona works to ensure that sheand her team provide compassion,
solution-focused and flawlessexecution for each client.
When not practicing law, leonaenjoys helping students attain
merit-based scholarships throughher company Krasnit Review,
(01:37):
organizing concerts for childrenthrough her nonprofit
organization Tools for Tots andTeens, and having adventures
with her husband andtwo-year-old.
Without further ado, here'sLeona.
Hello Leona, so good to haveyou here today, thank you Such a
pleasure to be here.
I'm super excited for thisconversation.
(01:59):
A lot of times when couples gettogether they don't think of
these things.
We're going to be talking aboutall things legal, so just the
practical of life, not theromantical.
The practical, becausesometimes we get too mushy and
we forget to take care ofbusiness right.
So we're going to help themthink of all the things that
they need to think about so thattheir relationship and their
(02:19):
life runs smoothly and withoutmany hiccups, hopefully.
Leona Krasner (02:24):
I love it.
Life runs smoothly and withoutmany hiccups.
Hopefully I love it, and theidea is that the mushy is
important and we're often mushyat the very beginning, right?
So what steps can we put inplace at the beginning, middle
and beyond, such that thingsremain wonderful and you guys
are protected?
Emma Viglucci (02:43):
Oh, I love that Exactly.
So I think that might cover whyit's important for people to
think about the legalities oflife, right, but do you want to
say a little bit more about that?
Like, why should they eventhink about this stuff?
If they're in love andeverything's beautiful and they
want to have a happy lifeforever, they don't believe in
divorce and they're going to betogether forever, why should
(03:04):
they think about these things?
Leona Krasner (03:06):
So the biggest reason why your relationship
doesn't work out, in myexperience as a family lawyer,
is due to finances, inparticular.
Not knowing about the financeseither mutual finances or the
other partner's financesfinances or the other partner's
(03:28):
finances and having there be asituation of financial control
or a gambling issue or a debtissue or a secret wealth issue.
These are the kinds of thingsthat really break up
relationships and marriages.
And so, from the get-go, beingvery clear and open and honest
about what exists and also aboutwhat the plan needs to be going
(03:48):
forward is a lovely startingpoint, such that it just that's
how we began the relationship.
That is how we continue therelationship.
My husband and I do what'scalled financial review Supposed
to do it every month, rightwhen I built out a spreadsheet
of all of our different accountsand we pop in there, review it
(04:09):
all, so we know and have thattransparency of what's going on,
and that really reduces thestress, I'd say, for both of us.
Emma Viglucci (04:18):
I love that.
Definitely, building andpractices is very important,
right?
So maybe we could talk moreabout that as we go.
And I love what you said, thatfinances is one of the biggest
thing.
Usually, when people come to usfor couples therapy, some of the
misconceptions are.
Or when I hear people outsideof the context of therapy,
they're like, oh well, he or shecheated.
(04:39):
Therefore, that's how you getdivorced and, from my experience
, that is not the reason peopleget divorced.
And thank you for confirmingthat, because, yes, we do get
through infidelity most of thetime and skate, that's usually
not the reason why people getdivorced.
So, yay, thank you for that.
So money, it makes sense.
It makes sense.
So it's not even that we havenothing in common anymore.
(05:01):
We don't get along.
We can't have the fun thingsthing coming anymore.
We don't get along.
We can't have the fun things.
These are the things thattrouble people.
That's why they come to couplestherapy.
Right, they think that thosethings are going to lead to
divorce.
So, nope, we can work throughthose things.
That's so funny, I love it.
So we're going to have afinancial conversation alongside
a legal conversation, it soundslike.
So this is so fun, not my cupof tea.
(05:22):
So I'm so happy to have expertson for these kinds of things,
so happy that you're here forthis.
So why don't we start at thebeginning of the relationship?
A couple decides to move intogether, maybe give it a trial
run, right what might be somelegal things that they might
want to consider slash financialto set things on the right path
so that they prevent messeslater, or just to address some
(05:45):
of the things that you mentioned.
Leona Krasner (05:47):
Okay.
So, relationships going well.
You guys like each other enoughto want to move in together.
That is awesome.
What I think is very importantis to get a good sense of sort
of what is it going to look liketo pay for the things, right?
So who's paying the rent?
Is that going to be split ornot?
(06:09):
Who's paying utilities?
Who's paying for Netflix?
Who's paying for groceries?
I mean, truly right.
I think those are importantquestions.
To just make sure it's clear,make sure it's written down in
some capacity.
Does it need to be a formalcontract?
Not necessarily.
Unless you guys have beenliving together for a very long
(06:31):
period years and years then youmay want to think about it.
But even getting into some formof writing text message, email,
hey.
So here's the plan as Iunderstand it.
Right, it could be friendly.
You like this person, right?
You're living with them.
Hopefully, things are wonderful, but having a clear
understanding of who's payingfor what I think is very helpful
(06:56):
.
Emma Viglucci (06:57):
And that spreadsheet that you mentioned
before that you do with yourhusband is a perfect example of
this.
This is how we're tracking ourstuff.
There's the documentation rightoff the bat.
So not that you're tracking anddocumenting things for the
worst case scenario, but just sothat life is easier.
There's no misunderstandings,everything's clear.
You're just setting a goodprecedent for yourself and for
the relationship, setting goodhabits.
(07:17):
Yes.
Leona Krasner (07:19):
I think that's correct.
Emma Viglucci (07:19):
Very good Good.
Leona Krasner (07:37):
So what kind of contrast would they consider if
they've been together for alittle, say, they are avid
collectors of records or beaniebabies or whatever.
They're collecting some sortsof stuff.
What happens, god forbid, ifthe relationship doesn't work
out?
What does that look like?
These are called palimony typecontracts and I see and create
(08:01):
those on occasion.
Very good, okay, perfect.
Emma Viglucci (08:02):
That's good to know and I love the idea of like
Very good, Okay, perfect,that's good to know, and I love
the idea of like have your life,do your thing, but just have an
understanding of what mighthappen and have more clarity on
you know who's this, what or howyou might address this in the
uneventful, eventful, uneventfulthing that might happen.
Leona Krasner (08:22):
One thing also that's very important is anytime
you are making more expensivepurchases.
Say, you guys live in a housetogether and there's a pool and
it's the other person's house,but you pay $10,000 to have the
pool fixed.
Take a screenshot with yourphone of proof that you paid the
10,000, right, the invoice, thereceipt, proof of payment.
(08:45):
Go ahead, take a picture,Because I've got a whole lot of
cases where somebody pays forsomething.
Many decades go by and then yougo to the bank going hey, show
me proof of that time that Ipaid for this.
Sorry, we don't keep recordsthat far, so it's your
obligation to keep that record.
(09:07):
Okay, and with your phone, justtake that screenshot real easy.
Email it to yourself such thatyou will always have it if you
ever need it.
Emma Viglucci (09:14):
Yep, yep, yep.
You know what a goodobservation.
Because we used to have.
The banks used to give you allthe records once upon a time,
right?
Or they used to mail you thestatements and they had the
copies of all the checks thatyou wrote, right, like?
This is really old school thatdoesn't exist anymore.
So, yes, what is your littlesystem for saving things, right?
So I have a folder where, like,oh, the receipts go into a
folder, so perfect.
(09:36):
If I ever need anything, youcan dig into that folder, you
know, for whatever reason.
So it doesn't have to becomplicated, right?
Just keep everything in oneplace, a file.
It could even be a shared file,like if you're in good terms,
but just keep the records.
Leona Krasner (09:48):
Be careful about the shared file, because if
things go badly and thensomebody goes in there and
erases everything in the sharedfile, that would not be good.
Yeah, yeah.
Emma Viglucci (10:00):
That's true, you know I'm wondering how and this
is getting a little too techienow, but you know, with backups,
right, so but then that getsinto like you have to track all
the old versions of things, sothere's overrides and stuff, but
yeah, but you're right.
So watch out for that.
You might want to keep your ownlittle things, Squirrel your
(10:21):
stuff away, you know.
Leona Krasner (10:23):
I recommend.
It's really easy Take a picturewith your phone and then send
it to yourself as an email, toyour personal email.
That's it, you're going to haveit forever.
Knock on wood.
Generally speaking, we keep ouremail addresses kind of forever
.
It's rare for them to be closedor shut down, so that's going
to be a nice way to be able tolater find that thing, should
(10:43):
you ever need it, but label itwith the date and a description,
so it's not going to be asdifficult to find God forbid,
should you need it in the future.
Emma Viglucci (10:52):
Right, and you could tag it, you could label,
you could create a folder inyour email server and just put
all those things in one place.
That's another way, yeah forsure, yeah, create a little
system.
It doesn't have to becomplicated, all right.
So the next level would be oh,we're liking each other even
more.
We do want to make this moreserious.
Now we're thinking of gettingmarried, we get engaged.
Now there is the ring.
(11:14):
People have all kinds ofquestions about this ring.
Leona Krasner (11:17):
Any thoughts about that and how to prepare
for marriage in terms of legalterms, all right, so I will
happily talk about the ring,should the parties decide that
there are issues once they'remarried and they no longer wish
to be together.
What's important?
Emma Viglucci (11:34):
if you have, or even I'm sorry.
So even if, or what if theybreak up before they actually
get married?
Maybe that's the question.
First with this ring right.
Leona Krasner (11:41):
Okay.
So they're engaged.
They didn't get married.
There's no prenup.
What do we do, right?
So the courts are pretty splitabout who owns the ring.
So often parties need to agree.
They need to come to some sortof understanding regarding what
is going to happen as it relatesto the ring.
So my advice is this this isbigger than the ring
(12:04):
conversation.
I would say, yes, have theimportant conversations about
your values and what you wantlong-term, early on.
All right.
So not maybe the first date.
Hi, how are you?
How many kids do you want?
Not that right.
You don't do that.
But you know like I think I hadthese conversations with my
(12:25):
husband over like our second,third, fourth, fifth dates
Earlier on.
You don't want to be dating thisperson for five years before
you realize they don't wantchildren and you do, or they
don't believe in marriage andyou've been waiting for a ring
for four years, right?
So getting a sense of what doyou value?
Do you want to live in the cityor do you want to live in a
(12:47):
house, somewhere?
That's very important.
Do you want to have zerochildren?
One kid, 10 kids, somethingdifferent?
Do you like animals?
Right?
What's the long term plan?
What is your approach aroundmoney.
Have these kinds ofconversations early during the
get to know you stage.
Keep in mind you're justgetting to know a person, so no
(13:09):
judgment.
If they disagree, okay, butfind out the answers to those
important questions before youstart banking on a ring that
you're never going to getbecause the other person doesn't
believe in marriage.
Emma Viglucci (13:23):
I love all those examples because those are all
topics that I see when peoplecome in for couples therapy,
right.
So it's so funny that theydon't find these things out
early enough.
They're just banging aroundwith these topics later on and
they're disappointed that theother person is on a different
sphere, right.
So it's okay to be differentpeople.
(13:44):
The partners will be different,right.
That's just, that's the way itis, and they're usually
opposites, so people get hung upon that.
But the values thing is very,very important, and the vision,
and sometimes we could get onthe same page about those things
too.
Nothing's impossible.
But if it's really really,really discrepant and you're
just not feeling it, too,nothing's impossible.
(14:05):
But if it's really reallyreally discrepant and you're
just not feeling it, then that'sthe cue early on.
So I love that you mentionedthat Very good.
Leona Krasner (14:08):
Think about the non-negotiables Before you're
even dating.
Sorry to go backwards beforeyou're even dating.
What are your non-negotiablesright?
What will one, you not tolerate.
But two, what must you have Forme?
I needed to be with someone whowanted children.
I needed to be with somebodywho wanted to get married,
(14:31):
somebody ambitious, so they'd beout there working because I'm
out there working and I'mlooking for an equal right.
Somebody who could keep up withme sorry, right In conversation
where it's interesting andwe're on the same page.
Somebody who wants to raisechildren in the similar way that
I do.
So, before you even date, whatdo you need?
Emma Viglucci (14:52):
What do you want?
Won't you abide?
Yes, yeah.
So figure that out for yourselffirst, and it doesn't have to
be rigid, because these thingscan be negotiated or come to an
agreement as you go.
But if people are really,really set and like this is the
life that I want, and somebodywants a completely different
life, then that's it right offthe bat, like you know right.
(15:13):
So I love that.
So now going back to the ring,because then let's get the
timetable going, so let's saythat they get engaged, but they
didn't have these conversations.
And all this information comesout now and it's like, oh, maybe
this was not the way to go,because, yeah, you do want to
get married, but you don't wantto have kids, or you want to
(15:34):
have kids, but, gosh, you wantto live under the water and I
want to live on the moon.
And how are we going to makethat work, right?
And so I was like, well, Idon't know, I can't see this
marriage working.
And so maybe they break up, andnow they're wondering what
they're bringing who the ringbelongs to.
I see this here and there.
(15:56):
And so they're not in a courtsystem yet because they're not
married, right, and I don't knowthat people go to court for
this per se they mightno-transcript legally it depends
.
Leona Krasner (16:13):
All right, let's try it as?
All right?
And can I take your example alittle bit further?
Would that be all right?
Yeah, of course.
Hey, these people aren'tmarried, but they got a house
together, they have kidstogether, right?
What does that look likefinancially?
So, in fact, they can go tocourt, and I have several cases
(16:34):
like this now, okay, where, hey,we bought this house together.
I'm on the deed, so is she.
You know, I put down thisamount, she put down that amount
.
Here are all of theimprovements that I made, right?
That's why I said keep track.
It's so important, right, right?
(17:03):
So in that case, where theparties have purchased things
together and then therelationship doesn't work,
they're entitled to their shareof that property, right?
So that is very important tokeep in mind.
Regarding the ring, the ringdepends, but if both parties are
on the deed for a property andthey haven't gotten married,
each is entitled to some portionof that property.
Emma Viglucci (17:18):
So how interesting the way that I
learned this when I, when I wasin graduate school, they made us
take a family law course, right, and so one of the things that
we were taught about this, andtell me if this, this is Ian's
ago, so tell me if this is stilla thing in the legal system,
maybe it's outdated.
It doesn't work like this, Idon't know.
And what I learned was that thering belongs depends on how the
(17:39):
ring was given.
If it was given as a gift, fora holiday, then it's a gift.
Then it belongs to the person,the woman usually.
And so if you give it to me formy birthday, for Christmas, for
Hanukkah, whatever, then it'smine because it's a gift.
But if you just give it to meon any occasion, now it's a
contract to get married.
If we're not getting married,then the contract is dissolved.
(18:01):
Then the ring comes back to mebecause the contract wasn't
honored.
That's how I learned it, but Idon't know what do you think
about that?
Is that cold water?
Leona Krasner (18:12):
So both people, generally speaking, want the
ring and are fighting over it,and so each will bring different
arguments to the table.
Okay, so that theory is onetheory I hear sometimes and it
makes sense logically.
To me it seems to make sense.
(18:33):
It really depends.
Is the ring an heirloom thatthe guy or gal got from a
relative right?
Is it something else Were thestones from?
You know what I mean?
There's a lot that goes on whenit comes to these rings.
Okay, so I appreciate youdigging a little bit deeper.
(18:55):
It really depends on the factsof the case.
Emma Viglucci (18:58):
Very good, yeah, as with anything, right, like
all these cases, the lowest, thelower, therapies, therapy.
But you can't just apply anover like, overarching, just
umbrella statement to everything.
You have to play with thespecifics of each couple or case
.
Yes, I appreciate that, thankyou.
All right, so now moving thiscouple along, they do get
(19:19):
married.
Actually, yes, before they getmarried, around the time of
getting married, they do aprenup, or they might consider
doing a prenup, or what are yourthoughts on this?
Leona Krasner (19:46):
What makes sense for couples, all right.
So the media portrays prenupsas this sneaky thing that rich
people push upon poor people orpeople they want to take
advantage of at the very lastsecond and force them to sign A
couple of things.
To me, a prenup means you getto see the other person's
financial screenshot.
Right, you know what they'rebringing into the marriage and
you know that you know, because,should they quote unquote
forget about any accounts or anyproperty that later is
(20:09):
discovered, that prenup goes outthe window for you, okay, and
you're entitled to some portionof the marital share of such
accounts, perhaps their growthor something like that, because
the other person was dishonest.
Okay, this lets you know whateach person is coming into the
marriage with how much they earn, what they have in their
(20:31):
accounts right now, how muchdebt they have, what they have
in their accounts right now, howmuch debt they have, any stuff
that they are.
You know, physical propertythat they may not have told you
about.
This is all useful informationthat, shockingly often, people
don't know about their partner,even when they've been married 5
, 10, 20, 30, 40 years.
(20:51):
This is vital information ifyou're entering into a serious,
long-term marriage.
That's very important.
What else is important is themaking of the plan as it relates
to finances right, definingwhat's marital versus what is
separate.
But really, when we talk aboutwhat is considered marital
(21:13):
property, right, honey, like,how are we going to live our
lives?
Into which account or accountsis our paycheck, our respective
paychecks, going to go into?
How often are we going to goout?
What are we saving up for?
What are we doing regardingvacations?
Right, here's the time to chatabout money and what that's
(21:36):
going to look like.
So it's not.
Oh well, I'm going to collectyour paycheck and my paycheck
and you're going to have to cometo me for permission to use any
money, right, whoa, whoa, whoa,whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Right, having this conversationbefore y'all get married means
you're way less likely to make aboo-boo, right, and you get to
set the ground rules regardingthat.
Regarding spousal support oralimony, thinking about the
(21:59):
future, you know what?
Whether you want the law togovern or you want to say
nobody's getting spousal support, that's another conversation
that can be had here Now.
Prenups don't discuss kids inany capacity whatsoever, or else
they're invalidated.
But this is the springboard tohave very important
conversations, to hopefully doall you can to guarantee the
(22:22):
success of your relationship.
Emma Viglucci (22:25):
Oh, I love that so pretty.
There was something that youmentioned the different accounts
and what's marital assets andwhat's individual assets or
personal assets, so people thatcome in with.
So let me clarify this formyself first, so make sure that
(22:48):
I ask you the right question.
So once you're married,anything that's earned
thereafter is considered maritalassets, is that right?
Leona Krasner (22:56):
Typically yes.
Absence or prenup typically yes.
Emma Viglucci (22:59):
Right, okay, perfect.
So then what's considerednon-marital assets is stuff that
people brought into therelationship, correct.
But if they play around withthe accounts or they use the
money in different ways, then itgets commingled and then
becomes marital assets.
So it's no longer your moneyNow, it becomes our money, kind
of thing.
Is that right?
It depends.
(23:19):
It depends Okay, fair enough.
Depends on what the thing is,that you put a pull in or what
did you do with the money.
Just kidding, okay.
So any other clarity about that?
Like, what should peopleconsider if they worry about
protecting what they're bringinginto their marriage, anything
that they need to put in placeat that juncture then, so that
(23:39):
it doesn't get commingled in away that they don't think about?
That might mess them up.
Leona Krasner (23:44):
So, generally speaking, at this point, folks
are often entering intomarriages a little bit later in
life and not 18, 19, 20, 21.
At least here in New York andNew Jersey, where I practice,
right so folks typically havetheir accounts and their own
names already set up.
That's usually before folks getmarried, where the paycheck
(24:06):
goes, right.
So they need to take the activestep of creating one or more
accounts together, right?
So the idea is, I think, thathaving the conversations
regarding kind of what the planis is important, and to be sort
of mindful of what you're doing,right.
So where does the moneycurrently go?
(24:27):
If you guys are looking to makea certain purchase where
separate assets are appliedtowards the marital property
that's going to be purchased,keep track, take those
screenshots, send them to youremail such that you have them
for the future.
Emma Viglucci (24:48):
So it boils down to what you contributed to
anything that's joined and keeptrack of what you contributed.
That's kind of how you keep itseparate for later.
If you need it later, gotcha,very good, okay.
Leona Krasner (24:59):
Exactly.
The aim is to be prepared.
I want your relationship towork forever.
I don't want you to have toneed me for your divorce or your
custody matter or whatever itis, although I'm here if I
become necessary.
The idea is I to put the piecesand the steps and the
procedures into place such thatI'm not ever necessary.
Emma Viglucci (25:21):
Yeah, that's lovely.
Thank you for that.
Okay, so now they're likeperfect, we have a prenup, we're
feeling really safe and secure.
I don't feel like I'm going tobe taken advantage of or that
I'm going to take advantage ofyou and vice versa.
I'm comfy, I'm going to takeadvantage of you and vice versa.
I'm comfy, I'm feeling safe.
The mushy feelings are stillhere.
We're going along with themarriage.
Everything's feeling nice.
What might be some things atthat juncture that people might
(25:46):
want to consider, once they havethat commitment in place, any
other legal matters that theyshould be putting in place for
themselves as a couple?
Leona Krasner (25:50):
Okay, so are we still we're engaged getting
married, or have we alreadygotten married?
Emma Viglucci (25:56):
At this point I think we got married, we're like
each other a lot and we'refeeling safe with this prenup,
so we're ready to go Amazing.
Leona Krasner (26:03):
All right, marriage has happened.
It was fantastic, right.
So now, making clear sort ofwhat the plan is as it relates
to finances, assets, that kindof thing, keeping track and
checking in, right.
So is there the joint account?
Which of you?
So both of you should haveaccess right Into that joint
(26:25):
account.
Both of you should be named onthat account, have access.
What monies are going into thataccount?
What monies are leaving thataccount and for what?
Okay, making plans, right.
Having the conversations aboutwhat the plans are for the
future and what your goals areright, talking about where you
(26:47):
all see each other in five to 10years, et cetera, sort of
what's the plan?
Is it the house?
Is it the children?
Is it a move somewhere?
Is it an upgrade to a bigger,better, you know property that
you guys are currently living in?
Sort of what does that looklike?
You know what's the situationas it relates to vehicles?
(27:07):
That's right.
Continuing to have thoseconversations, being open and
honest with one another andbeing curious, right.
So year seven is rumored andthere's research actually that
backs it up.
Year seven is supposed to bethe most difficult one.
We're after seven yearstogether.
(27:27):
So, interesting, right, that'sthe real test of the marriage,
right, and a lot of you knowrelationships can flounder at
this point, right?
So be curious about the otherperson, right, greet them and be
excited to greet them when theycome home.
One time I came home, husbanddidn't say hello.
(27:48):
I'm like, excuse me, hi, I'mhappy to see you.
Right, so we had this littlechat.
Oh, I love that.
Good for you, right?
So we had this little chat.
I love that.
Good for you.
Thank you for that beingexcited and showing that
excitement to see the otherperson.
We do a little something, myhusband, that I call a
relationship review, right,where we sit down every Sunday
(28:10):
evening First thank the otherperson for all the ways they
went above and beyond that week,then talk about what specific
instances could have gone better, right?
So, adjectives, we're nottalking about the past, we're
talking about the last week,right?
What could have gone better?
What do you need to do to makesure that that thing that either
(28:34):
happened or didn't happendoesn't ever happen again?
Right?
Emma Viglucci (28:38):
And then you debrief tweak, right, that is so
good.
I'm not going to put you in thespot and ask you if you guys
have been to couples therapy.
You don't have to answer that.
But this is fabulous becauseall these tools and things that
you have in place and practicesare all things that we teach our
couples to be preventative andto get on the same page and to
synchronize and to create thelove and to the appreciation and
(29:00):
to nurture the things and toaddress the things.
So thank you so much forreinforcing that.
Coming from a family lawyer,people Yay, so good.
Thank you for that, very good.
Leona Krasner (29:10):
And then, before you nag right, it becomes really
easy to get into the spirit ofnagging right, oh gosh yes.
So think about the naggers inyour life and think about how
they make you feel every singletime that they nag.
Is that the kind of feelingthat you want to be pushing on
your partner in life, or do youwant to cultivate a relation of
(29:34):
gratitude and thankfulness?
Will you thank the personthroughout the week for the
things that they do and givethem a little bit of grace,
understanding that they'reprobably also leading a little
bit of a difficult you know,stressful life, where things
sometimes happen and thosethings that you want to nag
about you can save forrelationship review time,
especially after you thank themfor all the things that they did
(29:56):
.
Emma Viglucci (29:57):
Oh my gosh, that's so beautiful.
Yeah, like I like to say, yourpartners are also on a journey,
right, they're not going to beperfect.
Also, and it's okay to havethat grace.
It's imperative that you havethat grace because otherwise
you're always going to beunhappy, people are not going to
be, they're not going to beperfect.
So if you're looking for that,you could always be dissatisfied
.
And having that grace andshowing that appreciation
ongoingly, yes, that's the keyIn that abundant and generous
(30:23):
and compassionate heart so good.
So now we're being preventative, we're being loving, we're
investing in all of the rightways, we're nurturing the
relationship.
We're preventing crazy thingsIn terms of planning anything
else legal at this juncture,what else might people be
(30:43):
considering?
Leona Krasner (30:44):
Okay, so as you grow wealth and may become very
wealthy, you're going to want tobegin to speak with
professionals.
Okay, so you're going to wantto begin to speak with
professionals.
Okay, so you're going to wantto look into finding a financial
advisor to advise about whatthat looks like.
As we enter, you know, theperiod where folks may want to
(31:07):
have children or not, or doggiesor kitties, right Speaking with
a a wills and trust, trust andestate attorney to help create
those documents.
For God forbid, what if?
Emma Viglucci (31:20):
right, if you guys have children?
Leona Krasner (31:22):
God forbid you both die, right?
What's going to happen to yourchildren, right?
What that's going to look like.
Or without children, right?
What's going to happen to allyour stuff?
What is going to look like aswell?
So having those conversationsat the stage I'd say is very
important as well, like stateplanning kind of stuff.
Emma Viglucci (31:41):
Very nice.
Yes, trust for the kids,possibly when you're doing your
financial planning, depends onhow much wealth you have built
or you have brought into themarriage to deal with all that
stuff.
Anything on insurances thatyou're able to throw into this
mix, or maybe just refer them tomake sure you covered that you
have enough insurances in allthe right places.
Leona Krasner (32:02):
Right so, speaking with a financial
advisor who's well-versed, rightso, maybe speaking offline with
me or with Emma to see who werecommend in that respect,
someone who really is able tobring all of the tools and all
of the vehicles to theconversation to see who we
recommend in that respect,someone who really is able to
bring all of the tools and allof the vehicles to the
conversation to see what kindsof insurance would make the most
sense.
Right so my husband, severalmonths ago, took a fall, broke
(32:25):
his wrist right.
It sucked.
Right so, had he had certainkinds of insurance?
We actually, very funnilyenough, were in a bathhouse with
another couple and one of thosepeople was our financial
advisor.
Right so he was there.
So after the fact he told usabout, you know, insurance that
would have assisted withfinancial difficulties.
(32:46):
God forbid that ever happenagain.
Right?
So, thinking about what thatlooks like if one of you is a
business owner, you know what itwould look like if you God
forbid were, due to a medicalissue or something else, were
unable to work for either ashort period of time or extended
period of time.
Right, if you are looking tostart a family, especially if
(33:07):
you are going to be having thechild.
Well, even for both, eitherparty, right.
Is there a way that you canqualify for some sort of
insurance such that you can getpaid during this time?
Looking into supplementalinsurance of that sort and
getting educated on that?
I think that's very important.
Speaking with a CPA, criticalright, having a professional who
(33:30):
can assist in that regard, andtalking about setting up
education accounts.
We start hours up with ourfinancial advisor, right?
So if there's a child orchildren or one or more coming,
making sure that that account isset up.
So, speaking with aprofessional who's really well
versed in all this differentstuff that you might not even
know that you need, but to themthey will be able to guide you a
(33:53):
little bit more.
I am a family lawyer.
I do not do financial advising,but just from my own experience
, I found this to be helpful.
Emma Viglucci (34:02):
Yeah, yeah, thank you for that.
You know it's so interestingSometimes when the insurance
conversation comes up in anycontext.
It's kind of okay.
So you need the homeowners, thehealth insurance, the life
insurance, the disabilityinsurance, the disinsurance, the
car insurance, like all of theinsurances you know, and if you
have a business, that there's awhole other gamut there.
And then they get, when you geta little older, the long-term
insurance and, like you know,all these other things.
(34:23):
So, definitely having aprofessional to advise you what
stage of life, what might youneed and what kind of policies
or vehicles, and even eveninvestment vehicles, so like,
like, if you're having afinancial conversation, all
these things definitely add toyour wealth, into your
well-being overall in life.
(34:44):
So beautiful, all right.
So at this juncture, let's saythat people have been together
for a few years but they forgotto do the pre, do the prenup oh,
they, that too, or whatever thestory might be and they might
consider a post-nap Any thoughtsat that point what that might
look like?
Leona Krasner (35:01):
So yeah, absolutely.
We help folks with post-napsall the time.
And the reasons whypredominantly folks get
post-naps are as follow.
One, they were going to get aprenup and, gosh darn it, they
got married first.
So shortly after, right,shortly after they get married,
they really want to do thisthing.
So I'd say, you know, within ayear or two they want to get a
(35:25):
post-nup for the same reasonsthey wanted to get a prenup
Gotcha Nice.
Another reason is the financiallandscape for one or both
parties changes.
Third, the relationship is notdoing so well and one party goes
listen.
Either you and I talk aboutthis and you know we come to
(35:45):
some sort of agreement and bothexecute this document, or I'm
going to divorce you.
And so those tend to be thethree main reasons why people
get post-nuptial agreements youknow, I like that third one.
Emma Viglucci (35:59):
I think that what happens a lot also is like
people like, oh, we might notmake it, but I want to work on
it, but just in case it doesn't.
Well, so so to feel safe, whilewe'll try to make it work, can
we please put this in place so Icould be invested still
invested in this and not beworried?
Correct, yeah, very nice, good,all right.
And then what if it doesn'twork and they're like, okay, and
(36:25):
they didn't do a post-nap, andnow they're heading down the
lane of divorce?
Yes, any thoughts I'm sure youhave plenty of.
What's the best way to go aboutthat so that they don't destroy
themselves, their families,their future and create more
drama than necessary?
What's the easiest, simplest,most beautiful way that people
could tackle about gettingdivorced, going about a divorce?
Leona Krasner (36:48):
So my advice is this I'll be touchy-feely first,
then I'll be a little morepractical after yes, good.
So have your support network.
So my advice is this I'll betouchy-feely first, then I'll be
a little more practical afteryes.
So have your support networkthat you need to get taken care
(37:15):
of is taken care of with them,and then have your team to get
the practical work done.
Okay, because often what I seeand I don't mind this at all
right, but I see folks come tome and give me the venting
emotional.
I'm just going to take him forwhat they're worth, right.
But I see folks come to me andgive me the venting emotional.
I'm just going to take him forwhat they're worth, right.
(37:37):
I'm going to not stop until Iblah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
I'm going to use the kids asweapons.
Stop, stop, right, hold on,hold on.
Yeah, get the venting done outof the way and then think about
what you really need, what thekids really need.
(37:57):
Yeah, I'm ready to go to theringers and really make a messy
divorce.
That takes a long time.
It's crazy expensive.
That's what really whatsomebody wants, right?
I'm handling a divorce that'son year seven approximately,
where they're fighting abouttoys, trains and tools.
(38:17):
What come on they could havebought so many extra toys,
trains and tools with the moneythey've been wasting on this
really dumb divorce.
We're in trial about bullshit.
Sorry, emma, right.
Why are we arguing aboutstupidity when y'all could have
(38:37):
moved on such a long time ago,right?
So have your venting people.
Get your professionals, getyour Emma, get Emma.
Emma Viglucci (38:46):
I was just going to throw in there, like you know
, like venting even to familymember and friends.
You have to watch that too,because that just creates a
whole other set of things aswell.
So, yes, of course, havesupport and know how to use your
support, but definitely have atherapist, because all that
stuff, the hooks, that's whyyou're in a divorce for seven
years.
That's not.
You know what I mean.
There's a lot of stuff going onthere.
Leona Krasner (39:07):
Therapy will help and help you, not do a stuff
messy you will help and and helpyou not to stop messy so you
torture your life.
Keep in mind all it takes for adivorce to eventually go
through is for one person towant the divorce.
I still love you, I still miss.
One person needs to feel asthough the relationship is
(39:30):
irretrievable, irreconcilablybroken down.
Emma Viglucci (39:35):
It only takes one I know right.
Leona Krasner (39:40):
So having that professional, having Emma, in
place to assist you with theemotional kind of impact of this
trauma just trauma, it is right, not an easy breezy, beautiful
thing.
Generally, right, deal withthat part and then really
thinking about what you wantpost-relationship, what's
(40:03):
important to you, and thenspeaking with an attorney who
can guide you on what you'reactually entitled to, right?
I mean, if the person on theother side only makes $100,000
per year but you want $20,000 ofalimony a month, there's not
(40:24):
enough money, it's not realistic, right?
Right?
So talking with a family lawyerand I'm happy to give a free
consultation for whoever needsregarding what you're actually
entitled to, perhaps you havebeen the person making more
money in this relationship,Right?
What's what some certainexpectations can be on your end
(40:48):
regarding having to pay spousalsupport or alimony to the other
partner, having to even maybepay counsel fees to the other
side, whether you want thisdivorce or not.
Having a clear understanding andclear expectations from the
get-go, such that you don't getto court and scream and yell
about something that there justisn't any likelihood that you
(41:11):
can get.
But gosh, darn it, you want toyell it because you're mad.
That could be very expensive interms of council fees.
But it can be even moreexpensive in terms of parts of
your life, just years and yearsof your life just I don't want
to say wasted, but just spent onthe stuff that could have ended
(41:32):
quicker and you could havemoved on to a much happier,
healthier life sooner.
Emma Viglucci (41:37):
Oh, my goodness, that's so beautiful.
Thank you, yes, I mean themoney is expensive financially,
but it's expensive to your soul,it's expensive to your
lifestyle, it's expensive toyour relationships, to your
timetable, your life journey.
Like it's expensive, right,like why are you wasting it this
way Just fighting over sillythings?
(41:57):
Potentially?
You're just being stubborn andit's sometimes unrealistic stuff
, like you know, like the$20,000 example, if you can't
get it, why are you stillfighting for it?
It's not going to happen,there's no money, you're not
going to, you can't get money.
That isn't there.
(42:18):
Yeah, I see some sometimes thatkind of silly stuff happens Me
too, I'm sure you do.
That's what you do for a living.
God bless you, Okay.
So now people hopefully theywere smart about it, they did
the emotional work on the sideso they don't bring that to the
legal process and they coulddisentangle appropriately and
kindly and intentionally andmindfully to the best that they
(42:40):
can.
And they are fair, whateverfair means, and everybody's as
happy as they could be with howthe decisions played out and now
we're post-divorce.
But there are some things thatcould still play out right
Post-divorce.
What might some of those thingsbe in terms of the divorce
process?
Leona Krasner (43:01):
So typically when folks get divorced right, so
there's an order.
There are things that one orboth parties need to do.
For example, somebody, ifthey're children, probably needs
to pay child support, someportion of add-on expenses.
Add-ons include in New York andNew Jersey, but are not limited
to unreimbursed medicalexpenses, education-related
(43:23):
expenses, extracurricularexpenses, summer care, child
camp, extraordinary expenses,right?
So one party may have to paythose or some portion thereof
and they don't.
Perhaps a house needs to getsold and isn't, or somebody
sells it and doesn't give anymoney or the right amount of
money to the other person, asthey were supposed to do it.
(43:45):
For example, someone'swithholding a passport, or the
children or something.
So something that was supposedto have happened in the
agreement isn't happening, right?
So folks may need to go tocourt for something like that.
Emma Viglucci (44:01):
Yeah, okay, and then, assuming that they didn't
get divorced and that thingsworked out well and they're
still married and it's later,they've been together for a
while and they're in life whatmight be some legal things that
might come up later that peoplemight have to deal with?
Um, and maybe I don't know if Ijumped the gun anything about
(44:23):
custody before we move forwardto if there wasn't a divorce.
So let's go back to the divorcestage, to the divorce stage.
So anything to highlight aboutcustody, how to approach that or
to keep in mind or how to goabout that.
Leona Krasner (44:39):
The key, I think, is to think about what is best
for your children.
Right, you might decide youhate the other person with a
fiery, burning passion, but youknow that they're a good parent,
or at least your childrenreally enjoy spending time with
that parent and nothing all thatbad happened.
(44:59):
And even if you don't liketheir new girlfriend or
boyfriend or something like that, right.
So thinking about the childrenfirst and not weaponizing them I
see kids.
Kids weaponized a lot.
Yeah, comes to custody andlisten, custody is a thing,
whether people were married ornot, right?
(45:20):
So folks who are unmarried can,you know, break up and we'll
have to deal with these kinds ofthings.
Don't weaponize the children,right, or they're going to have
to go and see Emma and Emma'scolleagues for basically ever
after because you screwed themup.
Your children don't do it.
(45:44):
It is your obligation as aparent to keep your adult stuff
separate.
Don't stoop to the level thatyou are hurting your kids.
Emma Viglucci (45:56):
Very good, yes, thank you.
Okay, and so now maybe theydidn't get divorced and we're in
that later stage of life, ortogether for a bunch of years,
and like there might be somesome other legal things that we
might have to consider in life,like what might be some other
things.
Leona Krasner (46:19):
So I mean, I'm a family lawyer, so when things
are amazing and folks arecelebrating their 30th, 40th,
50th anniversary hopefullynobody's calling me, right.
If somebody is calling me, it'susually because they've been
married a long time 20 plusyears.
Kids are big, or relatively bighigh school, college beyond,
right.
The kids aren't the thinganymore, right?
(46:40):
So they stuck it out right andare now ready to free themselves
.
So I think, as the children areleaving the nest, think about
whether this relationship suitsyou, whether you come home happy
and it makes you excited andfeel like a load is coming off
(47:01):
your shoulders when you walkthrough that door, or if the
stress is piling on, okay.
And your relationship after thekids are grown is going to be
real, different than your firstand second and third date.
It's going to be different thanthe wedding day, right?
So what are you looking for nowthat the kids are big, right?
(47:23):
How do you want yourrelationship to go?
Or is it?
Do you want it to be done?
Emma Viglucci (47:29):
Right.
Are there matters that you seeat this juncture, like what
might be some either custody orchildren or family issues that
might come up that have nothingto do with the marriage, like
what might be some other legalmatters that, as a family lawyer
, you deal with?
Leona Krasner (47:45):
So often the folks aren't in a good place,
right?
So one parent is withholdingthe children from another.
One parent just leftdisappeared and the other for
years, years, sometimes decades,right, and one person meets
somebody new but is technicallystill married to that other
(48:06):
person.
That's more common, I think,actually right.
You have marriages ofconvenience sometimes, where
somebody you know enters into amarriage to help somebody out,
get a green card right, whateverit is right those kinds of
marriages.
But then they meet somebody theyactually love and want to be
with right.
So there are some sort ofinteresting complications there.
(48:28):
What if one person'swithholding the passport or
refusing to allow the otherparents to renew the passport
right.
But if one person wants tovaccinate the children and the
other person does not, thecourt's position in New York and
New Jersey is what is best forthe children, right.
That is what the courtconsiders to be the most
(48:50):
important, absent really goodreasons.
Generally speaking, the courtsdo think that vaccination is in
the best interest of children,so that's something to keep.
Thank you for sharing that.
Of course, what if one persondevelops drug problem, a
drinking problem, a will notwork, or gets perpetually fired
(49:10):
problem work or gets perpetuallyfired problem?
What if you've got a situationwhere god forbid somebody
develops very seriouspsychiatric issues right.
One person gets really, reallyinjured right.
These kinds of things happenand they have a toll on
marriages sometimes.
So my recommendation is this Irecommend speaking with
(49:35):
professionals right, Schedulinga consultation.
Even if you have no intentionof divorcing ever or say you're
in a culture that doesn'tbelieve in divorce, there are
still options that could protectyou, protect your children and
make clear what the plan shouldbe going forward.
Emma Viglucci (50:00):
Very good and also I think I love that add-on.
You might want to have acouncil so that you know how to
structure or tweak your setup,just so that you feel comfy, so
that you feel safe, so that youfeel secure, just for your own
mental health.
And then, god forbid, somethinggoes wrong.
Then you're set and you're goodto go, but it might be
preventative potentially, or itmight make that life easier
later if you happen to go downthat path.
Very nice, beautiful.
(50:24):
Thank you for walking throughthe legal journey of people, of
couples.
Leona Krasner (50:30):
This was wonderful.
Really enjoyed this chat.
I love the little avenues thatyou allowed me to take and that
we took together, and you werefantastic.
Thank you so much for thisopportunity.
Emma Viglucci (50:42):
Oh, my pleasure.
Thank you, leona, and any lastminutes, like last comment, as a
goodbye closure statement thatyou want to offer the listeners?
Yes.
Leona Krasner (50:52):
Your job is ensuring your happiness, but you
were also in the driver's seatto determine whether you're
pursuing that happiness or not.
My advice for you is this Startpursuing that happiness as soon
as possible, today, right now.
Think about what you need tostart doing in your life right
(51:14):
now.
Whether you're with a partner,not with a partner, dating not
dating married kids.
What do you need to establishin your life so you could be
happy now?
Emma Viglucci (51:26):
Oh, my goodness, you're a breath of fresh air.
Thank you so much for sharingtime with me, wisdom and so much
knowledge.
I really appreciate you andanytime we could have more
conversations.
There's a lot of good stuffhere, so I would love to
continue our relationship inthat way and, to the listeners,
I will see you at the next one.
(51:46):
Bye.
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