September 6, 2025 • 29 mins
Dhiren Chohan, Partner - Law Firm | Episode 28 | Sudbury Interviews | September 6, 2025 | Host: Dani Star (Canadian Idol, Season 5) | Find us on Sudztown and join the conversation | If you would like to be a guest on the show, please reach out | Listen on: YouTube | Spotify | Apple Podcasts | iHeart Radio | Pocket Casts | Amazon Music | Audacy | Audible | Listen Notes | Overcast | RSS Feed | Website: https://sudztown.com/show/
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(00:00):
Hi everyone, welcome to Sudbury Interviews.
Today we have Diren Chohan and he is a partner with Weaver
Simmons Law Firm, which is the law firm right downtown in Brady
Square. It's a giant building right on
the corner there, the largest law firm in Northern Ontario.
(00:21):
Before we begin, you can find uson Sudstown and join the
conversation. If you would like to be a guest
on the show, please reach out. Hey Darren, how you doing?
I'm doing great. How are you?
Very well. Thanks for coming on.
This is a different for me because my world is pretty much
as far away from law as it gets.So thanks for coming on.
(00:47):
My pleasure. You know, I think most lawyers
take pride or most people take pride in staying as far away
from lawyers as possible. So I don't think that you're the
only one that that feels that way.
But you know, the colloquial lawyer jokes and the the people
who make fun of us. But I always say in, in my
response to that is, you know, you, you don't need us and say
(01:10):
you need us. And when you need us, you really
need us. And so for every for every
lawyer joke out there, there's alawyer that is there to also
help you when you're at your worst, so to speak.
Yeah, absolutely. So tell us about your.
I have total respect, by the way.
I just meant it in the sense where I'm.
(01:31):
I grew up, you know, with music,singing, playing guitar and not,
you know, in, in the legal senseof it.
So tell us about your beginnings.
How did you decide to become a lawyer and how how did you
always know you wanted to do this?
I think if you asked my parents,they would probably say that
(01:54):
from a young age. That's what I wanted to be.
Funny enough, you know, going through the motions, going
through high school, going through university and, and that
kind of stuff. I, I had it in the back of my
head that that is what I wanted to do, I think, but not really
knowing what it was. So now I'm sitting here 10 years
(02:15):
later in my 11th year of practice.
I had no idea what this job was back when I knew that I wanted
to be a lawyer, so to speak. But it comes from a drive of
always wanting to help people. And often you'll hear people say
I want to be a lawyer because I'm, I'm really good at arguing
(02:36):
or I'm argumentative or I like debating and, and that sort of
stuff. But for me, I am a person who
just at the very core of my beliefs, I, I want to help
people. I want to be that person for for
you when like I just said earlier, if if you're at your
(02:58):
worst and you're going through something really tough in your
life and you have nobody to turnto, I wanna be that person that
you can turn to and call me and say, hey, you know, I really am
stuck. I don't know what to do.
And I'm there as your guiding light and you're the person that
can help you through those toughtimes.
(03:19):
I mean, for the people that don't know who I am or what I
do, I'm a partner at Weaver Simmons.
I practice family and civil litigation mostly with the
majority of my practice being matrimonial litigation with
child custody disputes, divorce,that kind of stuff.
So growing up, I took that approach.
And as I was growing up, and I grew up with a father who really
(03:42):
instilled in me work ethic. You know, we owned a truck stop
growing up and I'd be out there,you know, pumping gas at 10
years old because somebody called in sick and there was
nobody available. And it was me and my dad.
But I also witnessed my dad going out to, you know, he would
drive 4 hours because a truck driver ran out of fuel and he
(04:06):
would go and deliver them fuel in the middle of the night.
So that's what I grew up with. And so this core belief of of
wanting to help people was really instilled in me kind all
my years growing up. And this seemed like an
appropriate venue to accomplish that goal.
(04:27):
And I'll tell you after practice, having practiced for
now 10 years and in my 11th year, I can really feel like I
can say that I have changed people's lives in a positive
way. And that keeps me going every
day. Wow, I love that.
(04:49):
Yeah. And it's, it's tough because I
don't, my job's not easy. And it's, it's not all the
glamour you see on TV, right? I think there's that
disassociation about what TV lies versus what real life lies.
And real life law is not as glamorous or as pretty, but it
(05:14):
is very rewarding if you do it in the right way.
And I always aim to do it in theright way and, and hope that I
do the best by my clients and even by the people who aren't my
clients and do my best for, you know, even the lawyers that I
work with, the colleagues and the lawyers on the other side.
(05:36):
I, I run my, my law practice andmyself to be very civil,
collegial and, and try to do thebest by everybody, the best we
can at all times. And that that's the kind of
mantra that that really drives what what I do and how I
practice and and the person thatthat I try to be and lead, but
(05:59):
to lead by example. Have you seen the TV show called
Suits? Of course, yeah, we, we, me and
my wife watched it. I, I love watching law shows.
Actually, it's kind of like a hidden, not a hidden secret, but
like a it's, it's, I enjoy watching them.
I think my wife now she can lookat a law show and say that
(06:23):
doesn't happen 'cause obviously she's, she sees my life and how,
how I talk about what's going on.
And it's like you watch an hour episode from on a TV show where
they're like, hey, we have this problem.
And then and then they flash forward to being in court and
solving the problem within. The next day.
Anybody who has experienced any bit of the court system knows
(06:43):
that that is absolutely not trueand not how it goes.
But it gives you that false sense of like.
What it does though, is it sets sometimes impossible
expectations. And part of right, part of the
job of being a good lawyer and I, I struggled sometimes too,
is, is managing people's expectations.
So as much as I want to do the best for people and I want the
(07:08):
results and you want to get, youknow, you want to get this over
with as fast as possible, which is what almost every client will
tell you. Managing those goals, managing
those expectations and managing people's emotions are a very,
very big part of my job. And the best lawyers will be the
ones that can manage those expectations properly so that
(07:32):
people are not disappointed or or surprised by the process,
right? Because law is very slow if you
start a lawsuit or if you're embroiled in a divorce, it's
slow. Court time is limited and we
(07:53):
have jobs to do and we have 300 files to deal with and it just
we move as fast as we can. But the the trade off, which I
think your listeners might want to hear is that you don't
necessarily want to rush your lawyer to do things because our
(08:13):
job is to read the details to belive in the fine print.
We live in those words nobody else reads.
So if you want a good result, rushing through that might make
me miss the word and versus the word or and if I make a mistake,
(08:35):
if it should have been and or ifit should have been the word or,
that could have serious consequences, just one word, so.
Wow, that's really profound. Wait, it's, it's the truth,
right? I mean, I think, you know, it
could mean the difference between something happening as
(08:56):
well or something happening alternatively.
And if you don't understand thatdistinction and you're rushing
through it because you want to get this contract signed, there
could be a big mistake embedded in there, especially if this
lawyer, your lawyer is not the one who drafted the the
document. So I just, I say that just to
say like, have patience with allof your lawyers, whoever they
(09:20):
are, not just me, because it's, it can become, it can become a
very frustrating experience for you as a client and especially
if the lawyer hasn't properly managed the expectations.
So I just say that as a general,a general statement because the
people who are listening, I'm, I'm imagining probably are like
you, who don't have much experience with the law and not
(09:42):
necessarily stay away from it, which if you never have to
interact with a lawyer in your life, you've probably done it,
right? Because you know, you don't, you
haven't found yourself in a situation that often times
you've not wanted yourself in, right.
And that's that's when people need us.
So the reason I had mentioned the the TV show Suits, there's
(10:05):
this guy on there. His name's Harvey Specter, and
he spends, like, the whole firsttwo seasons or more trying to
become a partner in this law firm, which is what you are.
So tell us about what that meansbeing a partner in a law firm.
I actually love that question. So in the life of a lawyer, you
(10:27):
start, you go to law school obviously, and then you have to
do a period at least, and I'll speak in general terms in
Ontario. So this is what happens in
Ontario. It's different in other
provinces, but in Ontario, you then spend the 10 months after
you graduate law school working at a law firm and that period is
(10:49):
called your articling period as a student.
So you work at a law firm, you're paid, it's a paid, paid
position and it's your placement.
So that's where you're supposed to learn enough skills to then
go out there and, and practice alittle bit of law and you build
your skills as it as then when you're hired as your in your
first year after you finish yourstudent placement to be called
(11:12):
what's an associate? And so there are different
levels of being an associate. So when you first are, you're
typically referred to as a junior associate.
And then if you're there five years or longer in the same
position, you're then usually get a pay raise.
And as the years go on and you're making more money and
then you're referred to as a senior associate.
And then as the years go on and you stay at the same firm,
(11:35):
there's more incentive to becomea partner of that firm.
And then there are different levels of partnership.
So you can be an equity partner to the law firm, which means you
share in the law firm's profits.Or you could be a tax partner,
where you basically just share in your own profits in a way
(11:58):
where you are a partner in name,but you just are able to access
a percentage of your Billings. But you don't necessarily
participate in the sharing of the profits of the overall
corporation like the firm or thepartnership, I should say.
And so it could be many years before 1 becomes a partner.
(12:22):
You could never become a partner.
So there are lawyers who work atfirms for their entire career
and they don't become partners. And some firms are set up where
the Equity Partners are just twopeople who own the firm.
They share in the profits, but then they have sort of pyramid
of people underneath them that are tax partners who share in
their own Billings and their ownprofits and then people under
(12:44):
them, the senior associates and junior.
So it's kind of like a pyramid set up in that way.
And so it just depends on the structure of the partnership.
And I think Harvey Specter and Suits became, becomes an equity
partner, I believe, because it's, it becomes his firm.
And, and there's also this, thisterm that gets thrown around
(13:05):
like named partner. And when, when that becomes a
thing, it's, it's when the actual law firm name changes and
the partner becomes a named partner who is also likely an
equity partner. Their name goes up on the wall
as as part of the firm name. So it, and that's why sometimes
you'll see law firms change names, add names, remove names
(13:28):
in the name of the firm changes.It's hard for branding because
you have to rebrand every time you do it.
So you don't see it done very often.
But it's when somebody's name goes on the wall and it means
that they're kind of like a, youknow, one of the managing heads
of the firm essentially. I don't know if that answers
your question, but that that's akind of like a basic rundown of,
(13:50):
of, of law firm partnership. Absolutely.
Let me give you a scenario and it seems like you have a good
sense of humor, so humor me on this.
You're sitting outside with yourwife, cats running around in the
front yard. A car pulls up, opens the door,
flashes some catnip, you know, here.
(14:11):
Kitty, Kitty cat jumps in the car and they drive off.
The wife freaks out, runs to theroad, takes a picture of the
license plate. So is this a call to Weaver
Simmons or is this a call to somebody else?
Like, what would they do? And this is not legal advice or
anything, but I'm just curious of that scenario.
(14:34):
Yeah, I mean, at that point, I think it's theft.
But the baseline, right, I wouldview that as this person has
stolen your cat. That's that's at the baseline.
Cats are property and I would say that you know, at that point
(14:54):
the cat has stolen property, taken it off of your property.
And depending on where they, youknow, depending on your
scenario, if did they, you know,did they pull up onto your
property where they are on your driveway in any capacity, they
could be trespassing. So there's that piece to it too.
But I think that's more of a call to the police.
(15:17):
Will they help you? Who knows, but you can also
there is a, there is a civil action for that.
You could commence for theft andconversion.
So if you, you know, if they took your property and you know,
result like for exam in that case, very unlikely scenario.
(15:38):
But let's say this cat I, I do recently know apparently Maine
Coons are very expensive. So let's say this was a Maine
Coon and I don't, I'm not a cat guy or an animal guy.
So this is just, this is strictly from life experience,
not because I own cats, but these cats are very expensive.
So somebody stole your main Coonand they, you find out later on
(16:02):
you're on, you're on cat Facebook and your cat's face
pops up and you say, hey, that'smy main Coon and they're selling
it for 10 grand and, and try to make a profit off of your main
Coon. You could sue them for
conversion, which is taking yourproperty and reselling it and,
and would you be successful? I mean, obviously fact scenario
(16:25):
proof, the burden of proof lies on you.
If that's your cat, does the cathave lines where it's supposed
to have lines? Did they paint the cat a
different color to try to hide it?
So there's all this jazz that you have to probably get
through. But in any event, that is there
is a simple action that you could probably commence if
that's the case, if the black market for Maine Coons is is
thriving or, you know, we'll follow the police, I would say.
(16:49):
So I'm just looking at your website here and you you have a
podcast of your own Off the Cuffby Weber Simmons.
I do so when you contacted me for an interview, it's again,
number one, I do public speakingfor a living so that it's I, I
love this stuff. So I'm very, I'm really happy to
have been invited to speak on somebody else's show.
(17:12):
But you're right. I do have my own podcast through
the firm. I started it with an associate
of mine who's moved on to, to, Iwould say probably greener
pastures for, for better, lack of better word.
But so now I just do it by myself.
But yeah, we cover wide variety of topics.
(17:33):
Right now I'm in the middle of releasing a series that helps
people represent themselves in family law cases because of
course, I I do family law and I see the downfalls and the
pitfalls and the, you know, the mistakes people make.
So my, and this goes back to my core belief that we started this
show with, is that I want to help people and I'm not doing it
(17:53):
for a profit. To be very clear, my podcast
makes me no money. I don't advertise or get paid
advertisements or do anything. I do it because it's an organic
way to give back to the community that I live in to help
people get through the toughest times of their lives who can't
(18:13):
afford to hire me. And I do that because I want to.
Nobody's forcing me to do it. And it's done honestly out of
the the sort of the bottom of myheart to just give back because
I'm very privileged to sit in the chair I sit in and it's my
(18:35):
duty to give back to the people who got me here in the 1st place
is how I feel. That is, that is beautiful.
That's wow. So Darian, the the next question
I'd like to ask you is what I call the daily segment.
And that's an odd name, but hereit is.
(18:59):
It's somebody question that I ask every guest that comes on.
What is one thing that you feel would make Sudbury greater?
So I'm not from Sudbury. I grew up in North Bay most of
my life. I was born in Thunder Bay.
So for those, of course, if you don't know who I am, I'm
(19:20):
Northern Ontario through and through, born and raised in
Northern Ontario. And it's another reason why I
came back. I went to school in New
Brunswick, but I chose to come back to Northern Ontario because
this is home and I didn't grow up in Sudbury, but having lived
here since 2014. So I've been here long enough
(19:41):
and I've been in and out of Sudbury since 2012 because I did
remember, I talked about the student placements.
So I actually did all my studentplacements at this firm too.
And so I've been at this law firm since late 2011, early
2012. And so I've been in Sudbury
since early 20 to early 2012, basically in and out and then
full time since 2014. And I I really.
(20:05):
Really love this city. My wife and I talk about, you
know, if it wasn't, we weren't living here, where would we
live? We actually couldn't come up
with an answer because everything felt like a lateral
move. And the network in the community
that I've I've been able to create here has just been
something I would have never dreamed of.
What I think would make Sudbury a greater or a better place to
(20:29):
live, I would say that it has submarine has pockets of a sense
of community, but I think that the city could do better in
terms of really making it a community.
So having grown up in North Bay,North Bay has really done this
(20:50):
wonderful project at their waterfront and revitalize their
downtown and has put a lot of resources into making their
waterfront downtown place a place to be.
And you see people biking, you see people walking, they're out
socializing, and North Bay really has that community feel.
(21:11):
I think something that's lackingliving in Sudbury for this long
is that you have your pockets ofcommunities, but I think the
city could do better in making, you know, the sort of the city
of Sudbury like the inside doughnut of the Greater Sudbury
part to try to make that connected and do things to
(21:33):
connect the different outline communities to the inside donor
of the community and really and really revitalize and use a
creative focal point that is. And I think we have a beautiful
spot in Bell Park to, to try to enhance that and create a, a
(21:54):
better sense of community eventsand structure focused around 1
area of the town, which is fairly central.
And, and that's something that I, I think would really help
help the city to sort of move away from that, from the
downtown core because of downtown core has such a bad rap
(22:14):
now. And I think another thing is, is
pumping resources into cleaning up the downtown core as I think
the current mayor and council are trying to do, But but really
just focusing on that specific area and issue.
How do you manage stress and andthe the stress of the clients
(22:38):
that they're probably in distress when they come and see
you most of them because they have a problem, but how do you
manage stress? So I, you know, obviously it's
the first time we're speaking and you don't really know who I
am, but I, I'm very calm. I don't know if you get that
(22:59):
impression just by talking to me, but I'm pretty calm.
Nothing really gets a rise out of me.
I don't, my emotions don't swinglike a roller coaster by any
stretch. So my clients are stressed out
and I view their problems as my job to fix.
(23:20):
And so to manage that stress, I really just focus on the tasks
at hand for me. And I don't view it as, I don't
know, it's very, it's, it's a very unique thing because
they're stressed out, their problems are stressful.
(23:42):
They're looking to me for solutions, which can be
stressful at times. But I'm at the stage of my
career now where I feel like I have most of the abilities to
answer their questions and keep them calm.
And by keeping them calm I'm because they they see me as the
calm 1 so in turn they calm downand we can work through it.
(24:07):
I have 3 kids and a wife which is stressful on its own, but
what keeps my cup full is knowing as I as I said at the
start, changing people's lives for the better keeps my stress
levels low. If I can, if I can say to myself
(24:29):
at the end of the day, I've helped somebody today.
I feel better about my day and Ican keep going.
It's what keeps me going and that's what keeps the cup full
and that's how I manage the stress when my cup is full.
Doing those things and and leading and active an active
(24:50):
social life outside of outside of the office.
I curl regularly in the winter. I I enjoy obviously I enjoy
golfing, which I don't get out to do too too much, but it's
another another stress reliever.But spending time, you know,
with the family and, and off times and making, making sure
(25:15):
that I'm, I'm healthy and taken care of, which is, is also very
good. And I was, I was telling you
before, before we started recording, one of the best ways
I manage stress. And I'll give a plug a shout out
to my my man Gorda Polonia at Top glove.
I joined the club last April andit was the best thing I've ever
done. The workout at the boxing ring
(25:37):
is something you can't explain. And there's nothing better at
the end of the day than going and punching a bag and working
your your butt off and just justletting it all out.
So that would be something I would really recommend people to
do. Been really great for me.
(25:58):
Really, really great. Do you guys have the the whole
building there on the corner? That giant building is all a law
firm. No.
So we we have half of the third floor, but we do have the full
4th and the full fifth floor. It's a very big building.
We employ about 100. There's about 100 people in that
building that we have working there at any given time.
(26:22):
But you would not really know wehave about 32 anywhere between
30 to 35 lawyers given the givenretirements and new lawyers
being hired on. And I'll just plug out for the
firm here is we're we're the largest firm in Northern
Ontario, probably the largest firm all the way up to and
including like up to Winnipeg basically W wow.
(26:45):
And as far South as obviously Berry, there's some firms that
are similar size and a bit bigger than us.
And then you know, we're it's usand in Sudbury here, I think the
next largest firm might have, depending on their new associate
hires, 8 to 10 lawyers and we'reat about 30 plus.
So we definitely have a good presence and we are looking
(27:08):
forward to just being a pillar of the community.
We've been a law firm in Sudburyfor over 90 years and we look
forward to celebrating that 100 years at some point soon.
And yeah, we, you know, we, we try to try to keep, keep going
and keep positive and keep growing.
So there's definitely not a shortage of work there.
(27:31):
No, probably the opposite. Of that.
It's, it's kind of the opposite.I always say I'll never be out
of a job and it's, and I don't say that facetiously or, or to,
to say that there are too many problems out there.
I just say that because there's not enough of us.
There's too much work and we're,you know, people need us.
(27:54):
And yeah, it's, it is what it is.
It's, it's busy and it's great. It's a really good industry to
be in if you're, if you're working in it because it's, it's
our demand is actually, it's, I would say our demand is
inelastic, which means for thoseof you who don't know what that
means is that recessions or booms don't change our needs.
(28:19):
People always need lawyers. And actually in a recession, our
demand goes up, which is the inverse of what you would think.
Wow, Sudbury interviews everyone.
Darren, I want to thank you sincerely for coming on and your
expertise and your caring naturebecause you know Sudbury needs
more people like you. It's a beautiful thing.
(28:41):
I want to thank you for invitingme on and I'll just give another
shout out. So Off the Cuff by Weaver
Simmons is my podcast. We're on Apple, YouTube and
Spotify, so come check us out. I've obviously subscribed to to
our friend here on on this show.And yeah, you know, keep it
(29:03):
going, Danny. And I'm I'm thrilled to having
been asked to be on your show. Thanks very much.
Have a great night. Yes, you too.
Bye.
Hi everyone, welcome to Sudbury Interviews.
Today we have Diren Chohan and he is a partner with Weaver
Simmons Law Firm, which is the law firm right downtown in Brady
Square. It's a giant building right on
the corner there, the largest law firm in Northern Ontario.
(00:21):
Before we begin, you can find uson Sudstown and join the
conversation. If you would like to be a guest
on the show, please reach out. Hey Darren, how you doing?
I'm doing great. How are you?
Very well. Thanks for coming on.
This is a different for me because my world is pretty much
as far away from law as it gets.So thanks for coming on.
(00:47):
My pleasure. You know, I think most lawyers
take pride or most people take pride in staying as far away
from lawyers as possible. So I don't think that you're the
only one that that feels that way.
But you know, the colloquial lawyer jokes and the the people
who make fun of us. But I always say in, in my
response to that is, you know, you, you don't need us and say
(01:10):
you need us. And when you need us, you really
need us. And so for every for every
lawyer joke out there, there's alawyer that is there to also
help you when you're at your worst, so to speak.
Yeah, absolutely. So tell us about your.
I have total respect, by the way.
I just meant it in the sense where I'm.
(01:31):
I grew up, you know, with music,singing, playing guitar and not,
you know, in, in the legal senseof it.
So tell us about your beginnings.
How did you decide to become a lawyer and how how did you
always know you wanted to do this?
I think if you asked my parents,they would probably say that
(01:54):
from a young age. That's what I wanted to be.
Funny enough, you know, going through the motions, going
through high school, going through university and, and that
kind of stuff. I, I had it in the back of my
head that that is what I wanted to do, I think, but not really
knowing what it was. So now I'm sitting here 10 years
(02:15):
later in my 11th year of practice.
I had no idea what this job was back when I knew that I wanted
to be a lawyer, so to speak. But it comes from a drive of
always wanting to help people. And often you'll hear people say
I want to be a lawyer because I'm, I'm really good at arguing
(02:36):
or I'm argumentative or I like debating and, and that sort of
stuff. But for me, I am a person who
just at the very core of my beliefs, I, I want to help
people. I want to be that person for for
you when like I just said earlier, if if you're at your
(02:58):
worst and you're going through something really tough in your
life and you have nobody to turnto, I wanna be that person that
you can turn to and call me and say, hey, you know, I really am
stuck. I don't know what to do.
And I'm there as your guiding light and you're the person that
can help you through those toughtimes.
(03:19):
I mean, for the people that don't know who I am or what I
do, I'm a partner at Weaver Simmons.
I practice family and civil litigation mostly with the
majority of my practice being matrimonial litigation with
child custody disputes, divorce,that kind of stuff.
So growing up, I took that approach.
And as I was growing up, and I grew up with a father who really
(03:42):
instilled in me work ethic. You know, we owned a truck stop
growing up and I'd be out there,you know, pumping gas at 10
years old because somebody called in sick and there was
nobody available. And it was me and my dad.
But I also witnessed my dad going out to, you know, he would
drive 4 hours because a truck driver ran out of fuel and he
(04:06):
would go and deliver them fuel in the middle of the night.
So that's what I grew up with. And so this core belief of of
wanting to help people was really instilled in me kind all
my years growing up. And this seemed like an
appropriate venue to accomplish that goal.
(04:27):
And I'll tell you after practice, having practiced for
now 10 years and in my 11th year, I can really feel like I
can say that I have changed people's lives in a positive
way. And that keeps me going every
day. Wow, I love that.
(04:49):
Yeah. And it's, it's tough because I
don't, my job's not easy. And it's, it's not all the
glamour you see on TV, right? I think there's that
disassociation about what TV lies versus what real life lies.
And real life law is not as glamorous or as pretty, but it
(05:14):
is very rewarding if you do it in the right way.
And I always aim to do it in theright way and, and hope that I
do the best by my clients and even by the people who aren't my
clients and do my best for, you know, even the lawyers that I
work with, the colleagues and the lawyers on the other side.
(05:36):
I, I run my, my law practice andmyself to be very civil,
collegial and, and try to do thebest by everybody, the best we
can at all times. And that that's the kind of
mantra that that really drives what what I do and how I
practice and and the person thatthat I try to be and lead, but
(05:59):
to lead by example. Have you seen the TV show called
Suits? Of course, yeah, we, we, me and
my wife watched it. I, I love watching law shows.
Actually, it's kind of like a hidden, not a hidden secret, but
like a it's, it's, I enjoy watching them.
I think my wife now she can lookat a law show and say that
(06:23):
doesn't happen 'cause obviously she's, she sees my life and how,
how I talk about what's going on.
And it's like you watch an hour episode from on a TV show where
they're like, hey, we have this problem.
And then and then they flash forward to being in court and
solving the problem within. The next day.
Anybody who has experienced any bit of the court system knows
(06:43):
that that is absolutely not trueand not how it goes.
But it gives you that false sense of like.
What it does though, is it sets sometimes impossible
expectations. And part of right, part of the
job of being a good lawyer and I, I struggled sometimes too,
is, is managing people's expectations.
So as much as I want to do the best for people and I want the
(07:08):
results and you want to get, youknow, you want to get this over
with as fast as possible, which is what almost every client will
tell you. Managing those goals, managing
those expectations and managing people's emotions are a very,
very big part of my job. And the best lawyers will be the
ones that can manage those expectations properly so that
(07:32):
people are not disappointed or or surprised by the process,
right? Because law is very slow if you
start a lawsuit or if you're embroiled in a divorce, it's
slow. Court time is limited and we
(07:53):
have jobs to do and we have 300 files to deal with and it just
we move as fast as we can. But the the trade off, which I
think your listeners might want to hear is that you don't
necessarily want to rush your lawyer to do things because our
(08:13):
job is to read the details to belive in the fine print.
We live in those words nobody else reads.
So if you want a good result, rushing through that might make
me miss the word and versus the word or and if I make a mistake,
(08:35):
if it should have been and or ifit should have been the word or,
that could have serious consequences, just one word, so.
Wow, that's really profound. Wait, it's, it's the truth,
right? I mean, I think, you know, it
could mean the difference between something happening as
(08:56):
well or something happening alternatively.
And if you don't understand thatdistinction and you're rushing
through it because you want to get this contract signed, there
could be a big mistake embedded in there, especially if this
lawyer, your lawyer is not the one who drafted the the
document. So I just, I say that just to
say like, have patience with allof your lawyers, whoever they
(09:20):
are, not just me, because it's, it can become, it can become a
very frustrating experience for you as a client and especially
if the lawyer hasn't properly managed the expectations.
So I just say that as a general,a general statement because the
people who are listening, I'm, I'm imagining probably are like
you, who don't have much experience with the law and not
(09:42):
necessarily stay away from it, which if you never have to
interact with a lawyer in your life, you've probably done it,
right? Because you know, you don't, you
haven't found yourself in a situation that often times
you've not wanted yourself in, right.
And that's that's when people need us.
So the reason I had mentioned the the TV show Suits, there's
(10:05):
this guy on there. His name's Harvey Specter, and
he spends, like, the whole firsttwo seasons or more trying to
become a partner in this law firm, which is what you are.
So tell us about what that meansbeing a partner in a law firm.
I actually love that question. So in the life of a lawyer, you
(10:27):
start, you go to law school obviously, and then you have to
do a period at least, and I'll speak in general terms in
Ontario. So this is what happens in
Ontario. It's different in other
provinces, but in Ontario, you then spend the 10 months after
you graduate law school working at a law firm and that period is
(10:49):
called your articling period as a student.
So you work at a law firm, you're paid, it's a paid, paid
position and it's your placement.
So that's where you're supposed to learn enough skills to then
go out there and, and practice alittle bit of law and you build
your skills as it as then when you're hired as your in your
first year after you finish yourstudent placement to be called
(11:12):
what's an associate? And so there are different
levels of being an associate. So when you first are, you're
typically referred to as a junior associate.
And then if you're there five years or longer in the same
position, you're then usually get a pay raise.
And as the years go on and you're making more money and
then you're referred to as a senior associate.
And then as the years go on and you stay at the same firm,
(11:35):
there's more incentive to becomea partner of that firm.
And then there are different levels of partnership.
So you can be an equity partner to the law firm, which means you
share in the law firm's profits.Or you could be a tax partner,
where you basically just share in your own profits in a way
(11:58):
where you are a partner in name,but you just are able to access
a percentage of your Billings. But you don't necessarily
participate in the sharing of the profits of the overall
corporation like the firm or thepartnership, I should say.
And so it could be many years before 1 becomes a partner.
(12:22):
You could never become a partner.
So there are lawyers who work atfirms for their entire career
and they don't become partners. And some firms are set up where
the Equity Partners are just twopeople who own the firm.
They share in the profits, but then they have sort of pyramid
of people underneath them that are tax partners who share in
their own Billings and their ownprofits and then people under
(12:44):
them, the senior associates and junior.
So it's kind of like a pyramid set up in that way.
And so it just depends on the structure of the partnership.
And I think Harvey Specter and Suits became, becomes an equity
partner, I believe, because it's, it becomes his firm.
And, and there's also this, thisterm that gets thrown around
(13:05):
like named partner. And when, when that becomes a
thing, it's, it's when the actual law firm name changes and
the partner becomes a named partner who is also likely an
equity partner. Their name goes up on the wall
as as part of the firm name. So it, and that's why sometimes
you'll see law firms change names, add names, remove names
(13:28):
in the name of the firm changes.It's hard for branding because
you have to rebrand every time you do it.
So you don't see it done very often.
But it's when somebody's name goes on the wall and it means
that they're kind of like a, youknow, one of the managing heads
of the firm essentially. I don't know if that answers
your question, but that that's akind of like a basic rundown of,
(13:50):
of, of law firm partnership. Absolutely.
Let me give you a scenario and it seems like you have a good
sense of humor, so humor me on this.
You're sitting outside with yourwife, cats running around in the
front yard. A car pulls up, opens the door,
flashes some catnip, you know, here.
(14:11):
Kitty, Kitty cat jumps in the car and they drive off.
The wife freaks out, runs to theroad, takes a picture of the
license plate. So is this a call to Weaver
Simmons or is this a call to somebody else?
Like, what would they do? And this is not legal advice or
anything, but I'm just curious of that scenario.
(14:34):
Yeah, I mean, at that point, I think it's theft.
But the baseline, right, I wouldview that as this person has
stolen your cat. That's that's at the baseline.
Cats are property and I would say that you know, at that point
(14:54):
the cat has stolen property, taken it off of your property.
And depending on where they, youknow, depending on your
scenario, if did they, you know,did they pull up onto your
property where they are on your driveway in any capacity, they
could be trespassing. So there's that piece to it too.
But I think that's more of a call to the police.
(15:17):
Will they help you? Who knows, but you can also
there is a, there is a civil action for that.
You could commence for theft andconversion.
So if you, you know, if they took your property and you know,
result like for exam in that case, very unlikely scenario.
(15:38):
But let's say this cat I, I do recently know apparently Maine
Coons are very expensive. So let's say this was a Maine
Coon and I don't, I'm not a cat guy or an animal guy.
So this is just, this is strictly from life experience,
not because I own cats, but these cats are very expensive.
So somebody stole your main Coonand they, you find out later on
(16:02):
you're on, you're on cat Facebook and your cat's face
pops up and you say, hey, that'smy main Coon and they're selling
it for 10 grand and, and try to make a profit off of your main
Coon. You could sue them for
conversion, which is taking yourproperty and reselling it and,
and would you be successful? I mean, obviously fact scenario
(16:25):
proof, the burden of proof lies on you.
If that's your cat, does the cathave lines where it's supposed
to have lines? Did they paint the cat a
different color to try to hide it?
So there's all this jazz that you have to probably get
through. But in any event, that is there
is a simple action that you could probably commence if
that's the case, if the black market for Maine Coons is is
thriving or, you know, we'll follow the police, I would say.
(16:49):
So I'm just looking at your website here and you you have a
podcast of your own Off the Cuffby Weber Simmons.
I do so when you contacted me for an interview, it's again,
number one, I do public speakingfor a living so that it's I, I
love this stuff. So I'm very, I'm really happy to
have been invited to speak on somebody else's show.
(17:12):
But you're right. I do have my own podcast through
the firm. I started it with an associate
of mine who's moved on to, to, Iwould say probably greener
pastures for, for better, lack of better word.
But so now I just do it by myself.
But yeah, we cover wide variety of topics.
(17:33):
Right now I'm in the middle of releasing a series that helps
people represent themselves in family law cases because of
course, I I do family law and I see the downfalls and the
pitfalls and the, you know, the mistakes people make.
So my, and this goes back to my core belief that we started this
show with, is that I want to help people and I'm not doing it
(17:53):
for a profit. To be very clear, my podcast
makes me no money. I don't advertise or get paid
advertisements or do anything. I do it because it's an organic
way to give back to the community that I live in to help
people get through the toughest times of their lives who can't
(18:13):
afford to hire me. And I do that because I want to.
Nobody's forcing me to do it. And it's done honestly out of
the the sort of the bottom of myheart to just give back because
I'm very privileged to sit in the chair I sit in and it's my
(18:35):
duty to give back to the people who got me here in the 1st place
is how I feel. That is, that is beautiful.
That's wow. So Darian, the the next question
I'd like to ask you is what I call the daily segment.
And that's an odd name, but hereit is.
(18:59):
It's somebody question that I ask every guest that comes on.
What is one thing that you feel would make Sudbury greater?
So I'm not from Sudbury. I grew up in North Bay most of
my life. I was born in Thunder Bay.
So for those, of course, if you don't know who I am, I'm
(19:20):
Northern Ontario through and through, born and raised in
Northern Ontario. And it's another reason why I
came back. I went to school in New
Brunswick, but I chose to come back to Northern Ontario because
this is home and I didn't grow up in Sudbury, but having lived
here since 2014. So I've been here long enough
(19:41):
and I've been in and out of Sudbury since 2012 because I did
remember, I talked about the student placements.
So I actually did all my studentplacements at this firm too.
And so I've been at this law firm since late 2011, early
2012. And so I've been in Sudbury
since early 20 to early 2012, basically in and out and then
full time since 2014. And I I really.
(20:05):
Really love this city. My wife and I talk about, you
know, if it wasn't, we weren't living here, where would we
live? We actually couldn't come up
with an answer because everything felt like a lateral
move. And the network in the community
that I've I've been able to create here has just been
something I would have never dreamed of.
What I think would make Sudbury a greater or a better place to
(20:29):
live, I would say that it has submarine has pockets of a sense
of community, but I think that the city could do better in
terms of really making it a community.
So having grown up in North Bay,North Bay has really done this
(20:50):
wonderful project at their waterfront and revitalize their
downtown and has put a lot of resources into making their
waterfront downtown place a place to be.
And you see people biking, you see people walking, they're out
socializing, and North Bay really has that community feel.
(21:11):
I think something that's lackingliving in Sudbury for this long
is that you have your pockets ofcommunities, but I think the
city could do better in making, you know, the sort of the city
of Sudbury like the inside doughnut of the Greater Sudbury
part to try to make that connected and do things to
(21:33):
connect the different outline communities to the inside donor
of the community and really and really revitalize and use a
creative focal point that is. And I think we have a beautiful
spot in Bell Park to, to try to enhance that and create a, a
(21:54):
better sense of community eventsand structure focused around 1
area of the town, which is fairly central.
And, and that's something that I, I think would really help
help the city to sort of move away from that, from the
downtown core because of downtown core has such a bad rap
(22:14):
now. And I think another thing is, is
pumping resources into cleaning up the downtown core as I think
the current mayor and council are trying to do, But but really
just focusing on that specific area and issue.
How do you manage stress and andthe the stress of the clients
(22:38):
that they're probably in distress when they come and see
you most of them because they have a problem, but how do you
manage stress? So I, you know, obviously it's
the first time we're speaking and you don't really know who I
am, but I, I'm very calm. I don't know if you get that
(22:59):
impression just by talking to me, but I'm pretty calm.
Nothing really gets a rise out of me.
I don't, my emotions don't swinglike a roller coaster by any
stretch. So my clients are stressed out
and I view their problems as my job to fix.
(23:20):
And so to manage that stress, I really just focus on the tasks
at hand for me. And I don't view it as, I don't
know, it's very, it's, it's a very unique thing because
they're stressed out, their problems are stressful.
(23:42):
They're looking to me for solutions, which can be
stressful at times. But I'm at the stage of my
career now where I feel like I have most of the abilities to
answer their questions and keep them calm.
And by keeping them calm I'm because they they see me as the
calm 1 so in turn they calm downand we can work through it.
(24:07):
I have 3 kids and a wife which is stressful on its own, but
what keeps my cup full is knowing as I as I said at the
start, changing people's lives for the better keeps my stress
levels low. If I can, if I can say to myself
(24:29):
at the end of the day, I've helped somebody today.
I feel better about my day and Ican keep going.
It's what keeps me going and that's what keeps the cup full
and that's how I manage the stress when my cup is full.
Doing those things and and leading and active an active
(24:50):
social life outside of outside of the office.
I curl regularly in the winter. I I enjoy obviously I enjoy
golfing, which I don't get out to do too too much, but it's
another another stress reliever.But spending time, you know,
with the family and, and off times and making, making sure
(25:15):
that I'm, I'm healthy and taken care of, which is, is also very
good. And I was, I was telling you
before, before we started recording, one of the best ways
I manage stress. And I'll give a plug a shout out
to my my man Gorda Polonia at Top glove.
I joined the club last April andit was the best thing I've ever
done. The workout at the boxing ring
(25:37):
is something you can't explain. And there's nothing better at
the end of the day than going and punching a bag and working
your your butt off and just justletting it all out.
So that would be something I would really recommend people to
do. Been really great for me.
(25:58):
Really, really great. Do you guys have the the whole
building there on the corner? That giant building is all a law
firm. No.
So we we have half of the third floor, but we do have the full
4th and the full fifth floor. It's a very big building.
We employ about 100. There's about 100 people in that
building that we have working there at any given time.
(26:22):
But you would not really know wehave about 32 anywhere between
30 to 35 lawyers given the givenretirements and new lawyers
being hired on. And I'll just plug out for the
firm here is we're we're the largest firm in Northern
Ontario, probably the largest firm all the way up to and
including like up to Winnipeg basically W wow.
(26:45):
And as far South as obviously Berry, there's some firms that
are similar size and a bit bigger than us.
And then you know, we're it's usand in Sudbury here, I think the
next largest firm might have, depending on their new associate
hires, 8 to 10 lawyers and we'reat about 30 plus.
So we definitely have a good presence and we are looking
(27:08):
forward to just being a pillar of the community.
We've been a law firm in Sudburyfor over 90 years and we look
forward to celebrating that 100 years at some point soon.
And yeah, we, you know, we, we try to try to keep, keep going
and keep positive and keep growing.
So there's definitely not a shortage of work there.
(27:31):
No, probably the opposite. Of that.
It's, it's kind of the opposite.I always say I'll never be out
of a job and it's, and I don't say that facetiously or, or to,
to say that there are too many problems out there.
I just say that because there's not enough of us.
There's too much work and we're,you know, people need us.
(27:54):
And yeah, it's, it is what it is.
It's, it's busy and it's great. It's a really good industry to
be in if you're, if you're working in it because it's, it's
our demand is actually, it's, I would say our demand is
inelastic, which means for thoseof you who don't know what that
means is that recessions or booms don't change our needs.
(28:19):
People always need lawyers. And actually in a recession, our
demand goes up, which is the inverse of what you would think.
Wow, Sudbury interviews everyone.
Darren, I want to thank you sincerely for coming on and your
expertise and your caring naturebecause you know Sudbury needs
more people like you. It's a beautiful thing.
(28:41):
I want to thank you for invitingme on and I'll just give another
shout out. So Off the Cuff by Weaver
Simmons is my podcast. We're on Apple, YouTube and
Spotify, so come check us out. I've obviously subscribed to to
our friend here on on this show.And yeah, you know, keep it
(29:03):
going, Danny. And I'm I'm thrilled to having
been asked to be on your show. Thanks very much.
Have a great night. Yes, you too.
Bye.
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