June 23, 2025 • 48 mins
In The Upside of Stress, health psychologist Kelly McGonigal flips the script, arguing that stress isn’t harmful if you believe it can help. This episode explores how mindset shifts can turn pressure into purpose and anxiety into growth.
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(00:00):
Welcome, curious minds, to another deep dive.
Today we're tackling something, well, something that touches
every single one of our lives. Stress.
Right. And you know, we hear about it
constantly. Manage it, reduce it, avoid it.
Exactly. But what if everything you
thought you knew about stress was wrong?
Seriously. What if the real danger isn't
(00:22):
stress itself, but your belief about it?
Sounds kind of crazy? Doesn't.
It it does sound pretty out there at first glance, but
there's this bombshell scientific finding from a study
back in 1998, actually, that completely upended the work of
Kelly Mcgonigal, the author whose book we're exploring
today. Oh yeah, I remember reading
about that transition for her. She was all about stress
reduction, right? Teaching people how bad it was.
(00:43):
Totally dedicated her career to it.
Then she comes across this huge study. 30,000 adults tracked
over eight years and the results?
While they were stark, experiencing high levels of
stress significantly increase the risk of dying, A huge jump
like 43%. Well, OK, that sounds like the
standard message, right? Stress kills.
Exactly. But, and this is the absolute
(01:05):
kicker, the part that changes everything, this increased risk,
this really dramatic effect onlyapplied to the people who also
believed that stress was harmingtheir health.
Wait, wait, hold on. Only for them.
So if you were stressed out of your mind, but you didn't think
it was bad for you. Then the added risk just wasn't
there, gone. In fact those individuals high
(01:25):
stress but didn't see it as harmful.
They actually had the lowest risk of death of anyone in the
whole study. Lower than people who reported
very little stress. Even lower than them.
It's almost unbelievable, isn't it?
It wasn't the stress alone, it was the deadly cocktail stress,
plus the belief that stress is harmful.
That specific combination provedlethal.
(01:46):
That is, that's profound. And when you start putting
numbers to that, it really hits home, the book points out.
Over those eight years, the researchers estimated, was it
182,000 Americans might have died prematurely.
Yep, 182,000 just because they believe stress was bad for them.
That's just staggering. It really is.
I mean put it in perspective. If believing stress is bad for
you was listed as an official cause of death, it would have
(02:09):
been the 15th leading cause in the US back then.
No way. Yes, way.
According to the CDC from aroundthat time, it would rank higher
than skin cancer, higher than HIV AIDS, even higher than
homicide. That's.
Unbelievable. Think about all the messages we
get, every magazine cover, everyhealth blog.
Stress is toxic. Exactly.
(02:30):
And those messages, however well-intentioned, might actually
be contributing to the very problem they're trying to solve.
It's a real paradox. And for the author Kelly
Mcgonigal, as she talks about inthe book, this finding just
completely rocked her world. I mean, imagine.
Oh, absolutely. Here she is a respected health
psychologist, on stage, writing books, teaching courses, all
(02:50):
centered on the idea that stressis this dangerous thing we need
to fight to manage, to avoid at all costs.
She thought she was helping people.
Absolutely did. And then this research lands and
she has to face this like, terrifying possibility.
What if by constantly hammering home how bad stress was, she
might have inadvertently been doing, well, more harm than
(03:11):
good? Wow, that takes guts to
confront, like a doctor realizing the prescribed
medicine might be worsening the illness.
Immense guts and real intellectual honesty.
Many people might just dismiss afinding like that, you know,
find flaws, exlain it away, rotect their existing framework.
Sure, confirmation bias is owerful.
Totally. But she didn't.
(03:32):
She saw it as exciting as the kind of science that forces you
to fundamentally rethink everything.
And that's really why this book,The Upside of Stress, is so
compelling and important. It's born from that kind of
courageous reevaluation. And that, everyone listening,
sets the stage perfectly. For our deep dive today, we're
digging into Kelly Mcgonigal's book, and our mission really is
(03:52):
to challenge those assumptions we all have about stress.
We're going to explore some pretty surprising science
insights that might genuinely rewire how you think about your
own stressful experiences. And ultimately, we want to
understand how your mindset, that core way you see the world,
can fundamentally change your relationship with stress.
(04:13):
Yeah, and just to be clear, thisisn't about like, ignoring
hardship or pretending tough times don't exist.
It's definitely not that kind oftoxic positivity.
Just think happy thoughts through real struggle.
Right, it's not about pretendingstress feels good.
Not at all. It's more about uncovering this
kind of innate capacity we all have to, well, maybe even thrive
(04:33):
amidst challenges, not by wishing them away, but by
shifting our perspective on them.
So we'll look at the data, the science.
And we'll unpack some really powerful stories from people
who've actually lived these principles and look at the
practical ways you might apply this.
The goal is really to walk away with a fresh outlook, armed with
some solid science and real world examples that show just
how much our beliefs shape not just our feelings, but our
(04:56):
actual physical reality. It's a journey into the power of
the mind really, how it can be our best ally or sometimes kind
of an unwitting adversary when life gets tough.
OK, so let's really dig into this core idea first, that our
beliefs, our mindsets can literally add years to our
lives. This goes way beyond just
(05:17):
stress, right? It sets the foundation.
It really does, and it might sound a bit, I don't know, woo
woo or self helpy at first, but the book grounds it in some
pretty solid science that Mcgonigal was already aware of
from health psychology. The mind body connection is just
way stronger than we usually acknowledge.
So what kind of studies are we talking about?
(05:37):
Well, one of the classics she points to is from Yale.
Researchers followed middle-agedadults for like 2 decades,
tracking their attitudes towardsgetting older.
OK. And what did they find?
It was pretty remarkable actually.
People who had a positive attitude about aging lived on
average 7.6 years longer than those who held negative views
about it. 7 1/2 years, that's that's huge.
(05:59):
It's massive and the book reallyputs it in context.
We think about, you know, exercise, not smoking, keeping
blood pressure down, all crucial, obviously.
They add maybe what, three or four years on average?
Right, those are the big ones wealways hear about.
But this mindset shift, just howyou thought about getting older,
had nearly double the impact. Your perspective on aging
potentially being more powerful than quitting smoking or hitting
(06:20):
the gym regularly. That's a real aha.
Moment, isn't it? Absolutely is.
Wow. And it wasn't just about aging,
was it? There was something about trust,
too. Yeah, another fascinating one
from Duke University researchers.
They followed older adults over 55 for 15 years, looking
specifically at trust. Trust in other people.
Exactly. Could you generally trust
(06:41):
others, or were you more cynical?
And the results were striking. A big majority, like 70% of
those who believed most people could be trusted.
We're still alive at the end of the study.
And the cynical group? Sadly, the opposite.
Around 60% of those with a cynical, distrustful view had
passed away. It wasn't just about feeling
grumpy. That cynical worldview was
(07:02):
directly linked to higher mortality.
OK, so if our beliefs about something as general as aging or
as fundamental as trusting fellow humans can have such a
measurable physical impact on how long we live?
Then it starts to seem much moreplausible, almost logical, that
how you think about something ascommon and impactful as stress
could also be a major factor in your health and longevity.
(07:24):
It really builds the case that these mindsets aren't just, you
know, fleeting thoughts or moods.
They're powerful forces shaping our biology.
Precisely which leads us right into defining what a mindset
actually is. According to the book, it's
crucial to distinguish it from something like the placebo
effect. Right, because placebo is
powerful, we know that. Take a sugar pill, believe it's
medicine and sometimes you feel better.
(07:46):
But that's usually seen as temporary, right?
Based on a specific expectation.Exactly.
A placebo is often a short term response to a specific
suggestion or hope. A mindset, as Mcgonigal and
researchers like Alia Crumb define it, is much deeper.
It's a core belief that literally shapes your reality.
Shapes your reality? How so?
Well, it influences not just your thoughts and feelings, but
(08:07):
your objective physical reactions, your Physiology and
as we just saw, your long term health, happiness, even success.
It's like a filter you see the world through.
I like the analogy the book uses, comparing A mindset to a
computer's operating system. Yeah, that's a great one.
Like iOS or Windows, it's running constantly in the
background, shaping every singleinteraction, every
interpretation, how you respond to everything.
(08:29):
Or as a placebo is more like a single A you downloaded or a
temporary software update for one specific issue.
Exactly. The mindset is the fundamental O
itself. It's always there, always
influencing, and its effects compound overtime, snowballing
into really big differences in your life.
(08:49):
It dictates what you notice, what you feel, and how your body
physically responds. OK, that makes a lot of sense.
It's the underlying framework and the research showing this in
action is just fascinating. The book introduces Alia Crumb's
work. Let's start with that
housekeeper study. It's pretty famous now, isn't
it? It really is, and for good
reason. Grown was super interested in
this idea. Could our beliefs literally
(09:11):
create our physical reality? So she designed this ingenious
study with hotel housekeepers. And these women, their jobs are
incredibly physically demanding,right?
Oh absolutely. Think about it.
Flipping heavy mattresses, pushing huge carts, endless
vacuuming. It burns a ton of calories, like
over 300 an hour. That's serious exercise,
comparable to weight lifting or cycling.
(09:32):
So they're basically working outall day long.
They are, but here's the crazy part.
When Crumb first survey them 2/3, two out of three believe
they didn't exercise regularly at all, and a full third thought
they got no exercise whatsoever.Despite working physically
demanding jobs every single day.Right, they were living the life
(09:52):
of an athlete without the mindset of 1 and get this, their
bodies actually reflected that belief.
What do you mean? Their average blood pressure?
Their body fat percentage, theirweight?
It all lined up with what you'd expect from someone leading a
sedentary life. Even though they were constantly
moving, their Physiology matchedtheir perception of being
inactive. It's wild.
It's like their bodies were listening to the story their
(10:13):
minds were telling them. So what did Crum do?
She decided to change the story in four of the seven hotels.
She gave the housekeepers a short 15 minute presentation.
Simple stuff really. Plus some posters for their
break rooms. And the presentation just told
them. It just clearly explained how
their daily work tasks, making beds, scrubbing floors, all of
(10:34):
it was exercise. It even listed the calories
burned. It framed them as meeting even
exceeding the Surgeon General's recommendations for an active
lifestyle and told them they should expect the health
benefits. So no deception, just
highlighting the reality of their physical activity.
Exactly, just changing their perception of the work they were
already doing. And the results after just four
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weeks? Absolutely stunning the
housekeepers who got this information, who now saw
themselves as exercisers. They lost weight, they lost body
fat, their blood pressure dropped.
They even reported liking their jobs more.
And, crucially, they hadn't changed anything else.
No extra gym time, no diet changes.
Nope. No reported changes in behavior
outside of work. The only difference was their
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mindset. Their perception shifted and
their biology followed suit. It's like finding out you've
secretly been a superhero all along, and when someone points
it out, your powers actually manifest.
That is just incredible. And the control group, the ones
who didn't get the presentation.Showed none of those
improvements. It really isolates the effect of
the mindset shift. It makes you seriously question
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how many other beliefs we hold might be shaping our health
without us even realizing it. It really does.
OK, this gets even more fascinating with the stress
hormone study Crum did. This involved a mock job
interview designed to be stressful, right?
Yep, and the goal here was even more more ambitious.
Could changing someone's mindsetabout stress actually alter
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their biological response at thehormonal level?
So before the stressful interview, participants watch
different videos. Some framing stress is
enhancing, some is debilitating.Exactly.
Then during the stress test, they collected saliva samples to
measure 2 key stress hormones, cortisol, which is the one most
people know. Right, the stress hormone gives
you energy, but too much is bad news.
(12:18):
Suppresses other functions. Pretty much, but they also
measure DHEA dehydroepiandrostrone.
It's less famous, but super important.
DHEA, tell us more about that one.
It's kind of the unsung hero in the stress response.
That's a great way to put it. It's a neurosteroid.
Think of like, OK, testosterone helps your muscles grow stronger
from physical challenges, right?DHEA helps your brain grow
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stronger and more resilient fromstressful experiences.
It promotes growth and learning in the brain.
Wow. OK, Brain fertilizer.
Brain fertilizer, growth hormoneand stress.
I love those analogies. And crucially, it also helps
counteract some of the potentially negative effects of
cortisol. It speeds up wound repair,
boosts the immune system. So Crum looked at the ratio of
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DHEA to cortisol. She called it the growth index.
Basically, how much growth and repair is happening alongside
the stress response? OK.
So you have the action hormone cortisol and the growth repair
hormone DHEA, and the mindset intervention aimed to shift that
ratio. Precisely.
And guess what happened? Tell me, did the videos change
the hormone levels? Well, interestingly, cortisol
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levels went up for everyone during the stressful interview.
That part wasn't affected by thevideos.
The stressor was still stressful.
OK, makes sense. But the participants who watch
the video framing stress as enhancing, as helpful, they
released significantly more DHEAand consequently they had a
higher growth index, more growthrelative to the stress.
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No way. So their bodies produced a
different kind of stress response based purely on the
message they received beforehand.
Exactly. Their mindset didn't just make
them feel better about the stress, it created a different
biological reality in their bloodstream.
It changed their hormonal profile.
Viewing stress as a resource, assomething that can help them,
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literally shifted their Physiology towards growth and
resilience. That's a total game changer.
It means our minds aren't just passively reacting to stress,
they're actively directing the body's response.
The story we tell ourselves about stress determines, in
part, the biological outcome. It really underscores the
difference between a simple placebo and a deeper mindset.
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This isn't just a fleeting expectation.
It's tapping into a core belief that changes how your
fundamental systems operate. And these changes, as the book
argues, can snowball over time. Which leads perfectly into these
mindset interventions, the idea that relatively small shifts can
trigger massive, long lasting change.
Let's talk about that social belonging study with Ivy League
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freshmen. Seems specific, but the results
were huge. Yeah, this work by Greg Walton
is fascinating. It tackles that.
Really common, often painful feeling of not belonging,
especially in new challenging environments like starting
college. We've all felt that right?
Like everyone else fits in and you're the odd one out.
Totally, but the problem is mostpeople feel it, yet they think
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they're the only one feeling it.And that belief I'm the only one
struggling can lead to all sortsof negative things.
Imposter syndrome, hiding problems, avoiding challenges,
basically creating a self fulfilling prophecy of isolation
and failure. So how did Walton intervene?
It was surprisingly simple, wasn't it?
Deceptively simple. Participating freshman.
Just read some survey results from older students, juniors and
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seniors. These older students talked
about their initial struggles with belonging when they first
arrived. OK, normalizing the feeling.
Exactly. And crucially, they also talked
about how those feelings changedovertime, how they eventually
found their footing and felt like they belonged.
Then the freshman wrote short essays reflecting on their own
experiences and made brief videos sharing this message for
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future students. That was it, just reading
stories and reflecting. That was the core of it, a
single brief intervention. And the impact, especially for
minority students, who often face greater belonging
challenges. Astonishing for African American
students of that study, this onetime intervention significantly
boosted their GP as over the next three years it basically
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closed the typical achievement gap between minority and non
minority students at that institution.
Wow, from 1 short session? Yep.
And it didn't just affect grades.
It changed how they approached problems, seeing them as
temporary, solvable challenges rather than signs they didn't
belong. It even shifted their social
lives. They were more likely to find
mentors, build closer friendships.
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As Walton says, it starts psychologically but becomes
sociological. It ripples outwards.
That ripple effect is incredible.
The book mentions similar interventions having huge
impacts elsewhere too, right? Better than scholarships for
retention having dropout rates. Yeah, the broader impacts are
stunning. Boosting college retention.
More than a $3500 scholarship. Having dropout rates in another
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study, Helping female engineering students feel more
welcome and connect better with male peers, it just shows the
immense leverage you can get by shifting a core belief about
yourself and your place in the world.
It really challenges that commonnarrative, doesn't it?
The author shares that story about David Yeager trying an
intervention in a high school gym.
Oh, right, with 129th graders, probably not the most receptive
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audience initially, and this athletic staff member comes up
and says basically, it's too late for these kids, you're
wasting your time. That sentiment is so common,
isn't it, that some problems arejust too entrenched, some people
are just too far gone for change?
Exactly. It's a deeply held cultural
belief, as the author points out, that real change has to be
hard, slow, require massive effort.
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Like moving mountains. But the science, the mindset
science, it suggests something different.
It really does. It suggests that small shifts in
perspective, tweaking that internal operating system can
trigger these profound cascades of change.
It pushes the limits of what we think is possible.
It's not always about fixing theexternal circumstances first.
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Sometimes changing your mind is the first, most powerful step.
It's a message of hope really, that change is possible and
sometimes the key is closer thanwe think.
It's in our own perspective. OK, so we've established the
incredible power of mindsets. Now let's rewind a bit.
How did we get stuck with this largely negative fear based view
of stress in the 1st place? Where did this toxic stress
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narrative originate? It seems a lot of it traces back
to one guy, right? Han Saleh early 20th century and
his initial experiments sound pretty unpleasant for the
subjects involved. Definitely not fun if you were
one of his Lab Rats. He started by injecting rats
with various ovarian extracts, hoping to find a new hormone.
But instead he noticed that no matter what he injected, even
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just saline solution, the rats develop this consistent set of
symptoms. The sick syndrome, he called.
It exactly gastric ulcers, shrunken immune tissues,
enlarged adrenal glands, a general state of breakdown.
And he realized it wasn't the specific substance.
Right. It was the experience itself,
the stress of being handled, injected, essentially tortured.
He found he could produce the same syndrome by exposing rats
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to other intense demands. Extreme cold, extreme heat,
forced exercise until exhaustion, loud noises.
Basically anything really unpleasant and demanding and the
rats eventually died. They did so he coined the term
stress to describe both the external demands he was placing
on them and their bodies. Internal response that breakdown
syndrome. So yeah, when we say the stress
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is killing me, we're kind of echoing Silly's observations on
those poor rats. Morbid but interesting
connection. It is, but here's where Salai
made what the author calls the Grand Leap.
He had previously been a physician and observed human
patients with similar nonspecific sick syndromes.
Fatigue. Low fever, aches.
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He connected his rat findings tohumans.
OK, that seems logical up to a point.
But then he defined stress incredibly broadly, not just a
severe trauma or torture, but isany demand made on the body,
anything that requires adaptation?
So suddenly everything is stress.
Pretty much. And by applying his findings
from chronically tortured dying rats to all human demands, he
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essentially painted all stress as inherently damaging, toxic,
leading down the past to diseaseand breakdown.
This really set the stage for our modern fear of stress.
So dealing with a looming deadline, or juggling kids
schedules, or even hearing frustrating news under Solai's
broad umbrella, that all gets lumped into the same toxic
category as, say, prolonged abuse or extreme physical
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hardship. That became the implication,
yeah. And it ignores the nuances, the
different types of stress responses we have.
It created this monolithic view of stress as purely bad.
And this pervasive fear, this idea that all stress is harmful,
can lead to some really counterproductive, even
dangerous behaviors, as the bookpoints out, like that survey of
pregnant women. Oh, that's a tragic example.
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Some women reported drinking alcohol during pregnancy
specifically to reduce stress, believing the stress itself was
more harmful to the baby than the alcohol.
One woman literally said it's better for me if I drink.
At least the stress is going away.
That just shows how distorted things can get when you view
stress as this all consuming evil you have to escape at any
cost. It's a terrible paradox, and
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it's exactly why we need to movebeyond Salai's limited fear
based model. Our bodies are way more
sophisticated than that. We have more tools in the Stress
Response Toolkit than just fightor flight.
OK, so let's unpack those other tools.
If it's not just fight or flight, what else happens when
we're stressed? What are these other biological
pathways the book describes? The book lays out a much richer
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framework. There are at least three other
key responses. First, there's the challenge
response. Challenge.
OK, what does that look like? This kicks in when you're facing
a demand, something tough, but deep down you feel like you have
the resources to handle it. You feel capable.
So maybe nervous but not terrified.
Exactly. Your heart rate goes up,
adrenaline flows, your brain gets more energy or mobilizing
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resources. But instead of fear, you feel
focused, energized, maybe even excited, ready to perform.
Like an athlete, prefer race or public speaking when you feel
prepared, perfect examples. And crucially in a challenge
response, you release more of that DHEA, the growth hormone we
talked about. So it's a state that not only
fuels performance, but also promotes learning and resilience
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from the experience. It's stress energizing you for
action and growth. OK, challenge response.
Got it. What?
Else second, there's the tend tobe friend response.
This was fascinating, driven largely by the hormone oxytocin.
Oxytocin, the cuddle hormone or love molecule.
That's the one though, it does much more than just cuddling in
a tend to be friend response. Stress actually motivates you to
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connect with others. You might feel an urge to
protect your loved ones, check in on friends, seek support or
offer help. So instead of just looking out
for #1 stress can make us more social, more caring.
Absolutely. It taps into our nature as
social animals. It boosts courage, empathy,
trust. It's about strengthening social
bonds as a way to cope with threat.
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It recognizes that there's safety and strength in
connection. So when disaster strikes and
people immediately start helpingneighbors or calling family,
that's tendon befriend in action.
Precisely. It's a core survival instinct
just as much as fight or flight.OK, challenge tendon befriend.
What's the third one? The third is the learning grow
response. This is often part of the
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recovery phase after a stressfulevent.
The very hormones released during stress, like cortisol and
DHEA, but also things like nervegrowth factor actually help your
brain rewire itself. Rewire itself?
How? They promote neuroplasticity,
Yeah. Basically, they make your brain
more adaptable, better able to learn from the experience you
just had. People who have a robust release
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of these hormones during stress often bounce back faster and are
better equipped to handle similar challenges in the
future. So stress, or rather the
recovery from it, can literally make our brains stronger and.
If we have the right mindset andallow that process to happen,
yes. It's how adversity can genuinely
lead to growth. The book gives a great real
world example of applying these different responses, doesn't it?
(24:13):
That couple, Riva and Lakshman on the stressful flight.
Oh, that's a fantastic story. They're flying to Australia.
Long flight black Sherman needs AC PAP machine for sleep apnea
which has to be plugged into theplanes power outlet.
OK, standard enough on long hauls.
Except the outlet was faulty. It kept coming loose in middle
of the night at 36,000 feet in adark cabin and Reva, who had
(24:38):
recent knee replacements, had tokeep painfully climbing over
seats in the dark to fix it. Super stressful, frustrating
situation. Yeah, definitely not a fight or
flight scenario. What are you going to do?
Fight the power outlet? Flee the plane.
Exactly. But Reva had actually taken
Mcgonigal's course on the science of stress.
She remembered it wasn't just about fight or flight.
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So what did they do? How did they apply the different
mindsets? Well, first they acknowledged
the stress. Instead of just getting angry,
they talked about it, supported each other, activating that
tendon. Befriend response.
Thinking about oxytocin helping them connect.
Leaning into the connection. Then Reva consciously decided to
befriend the woman sitting next to them, sharing their problem.
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This small act of connection made the whole situation feel
less isolating and more manageable.
Created a little support system right there.
Smart turning outwards instead of just inwards with
frustration. And they also shifted their
focus. They realized they couldn't
control the faulty outlet, so instead, they focused on the
meaning of the trip. They were going to see their
daughter and meet their first grandchild.
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Connecting to purpose the why? Precisely tapping into that
sense of meaning help them see the stressful flight not just as
an ordeal, but it's part of a deeply important journey.
It transformed the experience. They consciously use challenge,
finding ways to cope, tend to befriend, supporting each other
and connecting with the neighborand meaning focus.
(26:04):
It's like they deliberately chose different tools from their
stress response Swiss army knifeinstead of just defaulting to
the hammer of frustration or panic.
That's a perfect analogy. It shows how understanding these
different responses and consciously choosing your
mindset gives you agency even inseemingly uncontrollable
situations. This story beautifully sets up
(26:24):
the next really surprising idea from the book, that a meaningful
life is often, perhaps inherently, A stressful life,
which leads to that counterintuitive question, Is a
highly stressed nation actually a happy nation?
It seems completely backwards, doesn't it?
We equate stress with misery, but the Gallup World Poll data
is pretty mind bending on this. They surveyed people in 121
(26:47):
countries asking about daily stress levels and created a
National Stress Index. And you'd expect high stress
index countries to be miserable,right?
That's what the researchers expected, but they found the
exact opposite The higher a nation's stress index, the
higher its overall well-being scores tended to be.
Higher well-being how? In what ways?
Higher life expectancy, higher GDP per capita and higher
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national scores on things like happiness and overall life
satisfaction, even satisfaction with health, work, standard
living, community all tended to be higher in the more stressed
countries. So the most stressed out
countries were also happier and healthier.
How does that even work? It's perplexing at first, but
the key seems to be that the happiest people in the poll
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weren't stress free. They were often highly stressed,
but, crucially, they weren't depressed.
Conversely, the unhappiest people often reported a lack of
stress. A lack of stress correlating
with unhappiness. Wow.
It suggests that maybe stress isn't the enemy of happiness,
but perhaps a byproduct of engagement in a life that
matters. And this connects to the
(27:49):
individual level too, right? The book mentions studies
showing people with the most meaningful lives actually report
more worry and more stress. Exactly.
Think about common sources of meaning raising kids.
Immensely meaningful, right? But ask any parent.
It dramatically increases daily stress levels alongside the joy
and laughter. Or starting a business.
Entrepreneurs report insane stress levels.
(28:11):
But also huge satisfaction. Learning, feeling challenged,
making a difference. The things that give our lives
meaning, caring for others, pursuing goals, contributing to
causes. They almost always involve
stress. So maybe feeling stressed isn't
always a sign that something's wrong with your life or that
you're failing. Maybe it's actually a sign that
you're engaged, that you're invested in things that matter
(28:31):
deeply to you, the book suggests.
Stress can be a kind of barometer for how engaged you
are in activities and relationships that are
personally meaningful. A life completely devoid of
stress might actually be, well, a bit empty, lacking in meaning.
That's the provocative idea. It's not that every single
stressor is meaningful, of course not.
(28:52):
But the capacity to find meaningand stress, or to recognize that
stress often accompanies meaning, seems crucial for
well-being. Stress can be the friction that
forces us to clarify what truly matters.
OK, so if stress and meaning areoften intertwined, how do we
navigate that? How do we handle the stressful
parts of a meaningful life without getting completely
overwhelmed? This is where connecting with
(29:13):
your core values becomes incredibly powerful, like having
a compass in a storm. Values like honesty, courage,
compassion, those kinds of things.
Exactly. The book explains that when you
consciously connect to your personal values during a
stressful time, it changes everything.
You're more likely to believe you can handle the situation,
more likely to take positive action, seek support, and see
(29:35):
the difficulty as temporary, notdefining.
Your values ground you give you direction when things feel
chaotic. Precisely, they shift the focus
from how do I get rid of the stress to how can I act in line
with what matters most to me right now, even amidst this
difficulty. The book suggests that simple.
Remember your values exercise, right?
Like making a bracelet or key chain?
(29:56):
Yeah. A physical reminder.
So in a tough moment, you can look at it and ask, how can I
embody patience here? Or connection, or humor?
It anchors your response. There's that incredibly moving
story about Miriam and Joe dealing with his early
Alzheimer's diagnosis that's about as stressful and
uncontrollable as it gets. A devastating situation, their
future evaporating, but they consciously chose values to
(30:19):
guide them. Miriam chose patience.
Joe chose humor and honesty. And that example of him losing
his phone and finding it in the French?
Right. Instead of frustration or
denial, Joe, remembering his value, just owned it with humor,
admitted he had no clue how it got there.
And that lightened the moment for both of them.
Miriam saw him living his values, and it helped her live
(30:41):
hers. Exactly.
They couldn't stop the disease, but they could choose their
response based on what mattered most deeply to them.
Their connection, their dignity,their shared humanity.
It transformed the stress from something just happening to them
into an invitation to live theirvalues more fully.
It gives you agency back, doesn't it?
Even when the external situationfeels totally out of control,
(31:03):
you can control your response, your alignment with your value.
That's the power of it. It reframes the struggle.
OK, let's shift gears slightly and talk about anxiety, that
specific flavor of stress we feel before something important
or potentially threatening. The jitters, the nerves.
Yes, performance anxiety, something most of us know well.
So the classic scenario, Big presentation, exam, first date.
(31:27):
Your Herc's pounding palms are sweaty.
What's the usual advice? Calm down.
Great. Take deep breaths, relax, try to
chill out. That's what 91% of people
thought was the best advice in Allison Wood Brooks's Harvard
study. But it wasn't, was it?
Nope. Her research found that people
who were instructed to reappraise their anxiety as
excitement, literally just telling themselves I am excited
(31:49):
out loud, performed better. Better how they felt less
anxious. Not necessarily less anxious.
Interestingly, they still felt the arousal, but they felt more
confident, more prepared and objective.
Observers rated their performance, like at a public
speaking task, as more persuasive, more competent, more
confident than the group who tried to calm down.
(32:10):
South reframing the feeling, changing the label from anxiety
to excitement actually improved their performance.
It did. It seemed to channel that
nervous energy productively instead of letting it sabotage
them. And Jeremy Jameson's work builds
on this, showing that counterintuitive, more
physiological stress response can actually lead to better
performance in some situations. Yeah, his findings are wild.
(32:31):
Higher adrenaline during exams correlated with better scores.
Elite soldiers and law enforcement officers who showed
greater physiological stress responses like higher heart
rate, more cortisol during intense simulations actually
performed better. Less likely to give up info or
make critical errors. So being physiologically
stressed was actually adaptive in those high pressure moments
(32:52):
better than being totally relaxed.
In those contexts, yes, it suggests that the energy
mobilization part of the stress response is crucial for peak
performance. The key is how you interpret and
channel that energy. It's like that rocket launch
analogy again. You need the fire and pressure
to get off the ground. He even did that math anxiety
study, right? Just telling students their
(33:13):
anxiety could help them. Simply giving them that message
that their racing heart meant their body was preparing them to
succeed led to better test scores.
No extra tutoring, just a mindset shift.
And the yoga instructor Mariella, who reframed her pre
class panic as energy to perform.
Perfect example of applying it personally.
(33:34):
She didn't stop feeling the physical sensations, but
changing the story she told herself about those sensations
transformed her experience and allowed her to teach effectively
instead of cancelling classes. It's not about eliminating the
feeling, but changing your relationship to the feeling.
Which brings us to the infamous Trier Social Stress test.
(33:54):
Describe this beast for us. Oh, the TSST is basically
psychological torture designed by scientists.
You're brought into a room with these stern faced experts.
And you were trained actors, basically.
Pretty much trained to be judge mental.
You have to give an impromptu speech about your strengths and
weakness on camera with them frowning, sighing, tapping their
feet, maybe interrupting to say you're doing poorly.
(34:15):
Yikes. And then immediately after you
have to do difficult mental arithmetic out loud, starting
over every time you make a mistake while they continue to
look displeased. It reliably spikes cortisol like
crazy. Sounds absolutely dreadful.
So how did Jameson use this to test the mindset intervention?
Before subjecting people to thisordeal, he gave one group the
mindset intervention message. Your stress response is helpful.
(34:40):
Your pounding heart means more oxygen to your brain.
Embrace it as your body preparing you to meet the
challenge. Basically priming them to see
the stress as enhancing like in crumbs study.
Exactly, and the results were fascinating physiologically and
psychologically. What happened?
Did they feel less stressed? Not necessarily less stressed,
but their bodies responded differently.
(35:02):
Their cardiovascular profile shifted from a threat response,
where blood vessels constrict, to a challenge response, where
vessels dilate, delivering more blood efficiently.
So their bodies literally reacted as if facing a challenge
they could meet rather than an overwhelming threat.
Precisely. And behaviorally, they felt more
confident, less anxious overall,performed better on both the
(35:23):
speech and the math tasks, and we're less distracted by
thoughts of failure. They went from I can't handle
this to I've got this just from that brief mindset training
beforehand. Right.
And the altar emphasizes this isn't just a one off trick.
These shifts can snowball each time you successfully navigate
stress. Using this mindset, you build
confidence, reinforcing the belief that you can handle
(35:45):
pressure, which helps in the next stressful situation and the
next. It builds resilience overtime.
This really highlights the danger of the opposite approach
though, trying to avoid anxiety altogether.
Kelly Mcgonigal is incredibly open about her own struggles
with this, particularly her fearof flying.
Yeah, her personal story is so powerful.
Years of crippling fear, panic attacks, just thinking about
(36:08):
flying, leading her to avoid planes completely.
A classic anxiety avoidance cycle.
Textbook case. And the irony, as psychologists
know and the book points out, isthat trying desperately to avoid
stress or anxiety often creates more stress in the long run.
It depletes your resources, narrows your world.
The book mentions studies linking high stress avoidance to
(36:29):
depression, more life problems. Exactly.
Trying to build a life purely around maximizing pleasure and
avoiding pain often leads to a life that feels shallow,
disconnected, lacking meaning. The avoidance itself becomes a
major source of stress and limitation.
Like a mogma realized she was paying the price of fear whether
I flew or not. Avoiding planes didn't make the
(36:51):
fear vanish, it just meant she paid in missed opportunities,
strained relationships, a smaller life.
That realization was her breakthrough.
She made the conscious, terrifying choice to be afraid
and fly anyway, prioritizing meaning seeing family
professional opportunities over the illusion of anxiety free
comfort. Now she flies constantly.
(37:11):
It's about choosing courage overcomfort when something important
is at stake. It's such a powerful lesson and
we see it again with Sue Cotter's Welfare to Work
students. The standard stress management
approach was actually harming them.
It was completely backfiring, giving people already facing
immense systemic stress checklists that basically said
your life is incredibly stressful and it's going to kill
you. Well, that's just paralyzing,
(37:32):
isn't it? It reinforces helplessness.
Totally counterproductive, so Cotter flipped the script.
She did. Instead of the scare tactics,
she taught them the science we've been discussing that
they're racing heart. Was their body preparing them
for action? Mobilizing energy?
She helped them reframe stress as fuel and coached them on
making action plans for inevitable setbacks instead of
(37:52):
just giving up. Empowering them to engage with
the stress, not just be victims of it.
Exactly, It's like trying to avoid shadows by staying in the
dark. You just miss out on all the
light. Sometimes you have to step into
the challenge, anxiety and all, to live fully.
So we've seen how mindset shapesthe stress experience, how our
bodies have multiple responses and how engaging with stress,
(38:13):
even anxiety, can be beneficial.Now let's tackle that really
profound idea. Growth through adversity, not
just bouncing back, but actuallybecoming stronger or finding
deeper meaning because of suffering post traumatic growth.
It's a. Powerful concept and often
misunderstood. It's not about saying trauma is
good, It's about acknowledging that positive psychological
(38:34):
changes can and often do emerge from the struggle with highly
challenging life circumstances. The book shares Cassandra
Nelson's story after the devastating loss of her infant
daughter, Margo. How did she navigate that
unimaginable pain towards growth?
It was obviously an incredibly difficult journey through
intense grief, but connecting with a support group, Hand of
(38:56):
the Peninsula, was crucial. It provided space to process, to
remember Margot, and eventually to find a way forward.
Now Cassandra volunteers extensively for that same
organization, helping other grieving families.
Turning her own pain into a source of profound compassion
and service for others. Exactly.
That transformation of sufferinginto meaning is a hallmark of
(39:17):
PTG, and it's surprisingly common.
Really, it feels like it would be rare.
The research suggests otherwise.High percentages of survivors
report experiencing significant positive changes after
incredibly diverse traumas, terrorist attacks, natural
disasters, serious illness like HIV, AIDS combat, loss of loved
ones, even emergency workers dealing with repeated trauma
(39:38):
exposure. What kind of positive changes to
People report? Usually things like the greater
appreciation for life, stronger relationships, discovering a
sense of inner strength they never knew they had, identifying
new possibilities or paths in life, and often a deeper sense
of spirituality or compassion. Jennifer White's story Founding
Hope After Project after her mother's death seems like
(40:01):
another great example organizingservice projects in her mom's
memory. Yes, and her quote perfectly
captures the nuance. I like who I am better today
than before she died, but that doesn't mean that I don't wish
you were still here. Right.
It doesn't erase the pain or make the loss OK.
The growth coexists with the grief.
Absolutely and paradoxically, research often finds that the
(40:21):
severity of the initial distresscan positively predict the
extent of eventual growth. The struggle itself seems to be
the catalyst, the engine of transformation.
It's about finding the good while coping, not denying the
bad. Finding diamonds in the ashes,
as you said earlier. So if growth is possible, how
did the stories we tell about ourselves, about others,
influence this process? Narratives are hugely important.
(40:44):
Think about Mary Wiltenberg, thejournalist who wrote about Sue
Mladnick, the 9/11 widow, twice.Right, the first article a year
later was just raw grief and despair.
So much so that it haunted the journalist herself.
It was pure tragedy. But the second Article, 10 years
on, told the different story. A story of moving forward,
finding purpose. Yes, it showed how the family
(41:05):
had integrated the laws, how they celebrated Jeff's life, how
they came together as team identic on 9/11.
It was a story of resilience, meaning and hope.
And that story filled the journalist with hope rather than
despair. It highlights the impact of
focusing only on the trauma versus focusing on the recovery
and rebuilding process as well. Precisely which connects to that
(41:25):
worrying finding about news coverage of tragedies.
Remember the Boston Marathon bombing study?
Yeah, people who watched hours of news coverage had higher PTSD
risk than some people actually at the event.
Chilling. It really is.
It underscores the potential harm of narratives focused
solely on damage and victimhood.That's why organizations like
Images and Voices of Hope push for restorative narratives,
(41:48):
stories that include the struggle but also highlight the
process of recovery, resilience and meaning making, showing the
path through. And this relates to vicarious
resilience, right? The idea that just witnessing
others strength can strengthen us.
Exactly. It started with observations of
therapists being inspired by their clients recovery, but it
applies more broadly when we engage with stories of
(42:11):
resilience, when we witness bothsomeone's pain and their
resources for coping and growing.
It can remind us of our own capacity, strengthen our own
hope. We can draw strength from their
journey. Which is the opposite of that
isolating feeling, that sense ofbeing alone and suffering.
That feeling that everyone else has it figured out while you're
a mess inside. That feeling is such a barrier.
(42:31):
We judge our messy insides by other people's polished
outsides, and it keeps us trapped, prevents us from
reaching out or recognizing our shared humanity.
So the antidote is cultivating that common humanity mindset the
book talks about. Yes, recognizing that struggle,
imperfection, vulnerability, it's not a personal failing.
It's just part of being human. Everyone faces challenges.
(42:54):
Everyone feels inadequate sometimes.
People who really internalize this common humanity mindset are
happier, more resilient, and, ironically, more willing to be
open about their struggle. Which then allows them to
connect and get support like Cynthia the night before her
surgery. Oh, that's such a beautiful
example. Instead of just feeling her own
individual fear, she consciouslyconnected with this imagined,
(43:15):
nameless, faceless community of others facing medical anxiety
worldwide. Waiting for tests, starting
chemo, facing surgery. Right.
She felt connected to their struggles and imagine their
courage, feeling bravery livery by extension.
She even created that mantra Maywe all know our own strength,
offering it to them and herself.It shifted her from feeling
isolated in fear to feeling partof a collective, courageous
(43:37):
human experience. That power of connection, of
shared purpose, is so central toresilience, like Lennon flowers
creating the dinner party for young adults who've lost loved
ones. She felt so isolated in her
grief, finding pity or avoidanceinstead of understanding.
So she created the community. She needs spaces for people to
share stories, honestly connect authentically over shared loss
(43:59):
being the starting point for thecommunity you crave.
And we see that theme of findingmeaning and connection through
service again and again, those Louisville bus drivers becoming
safety ambassadors. Such a great example, facing
safety concerns, instead of justretreating, they embrace a new
role, actively greeting passengers, creating a sense of
community on the bus. And it boosted their sense of
meaning and buffered against burnout.
(44:21):
Hugely connecting to that biggerthan self purpose, that simple
act of human connection with each passenger transform their
work experience, finding dignityand meaning in daily
interactions. Similar to the EMS core in
Alameda County, training disadvantaged young men to
become EMTs in their own neighborhoods.
Taking young men's often seen aspredators and empowering them to
(44:44):
become protectors. Giving them skills, purpose, a
positive identity rooted in service.
Helping them find strength by helping others, often overcoming
immense personal adversity in the process.
And finally, the Soul Train running program in Boston for at
risk youth. Kids facing incredible
challenges, many with PTSD. The program score isn't
(45:05):
competition, it's mutual support.
Deconstructing impossible together.
The goal is getting everyone across the finish line
supporting each other. Exactly.
Never competitive against someone else.
And in that environment where their strength is needed, where
they contribute to the group's success, these kids flourish.
They show up, they support each other, they achieve things they
never thought possible. It's that barn raising analogy.
(45:27):
Collective effort lifting everyone.
Wow, we have covered so much ground here, from Sally's rats
and the history of stress research, all the way to
neuroscience global surveys and these incredibly moving stories
of personal and community transformation.
It's been quite a journey through the books, key ideas and
I think the core take away from the upside of stress isn't
(45:47):
really about settling. Whether stress is definitively
good or bad, life's just not that simple, is it?
No, it's far more nuanced than that.
It really boils down to the stance we choose to take towards
stress. The book compellingly argues
that for almost every negative outcome we associate with
stress, there's a flip side, an exception where stress actually
(46:09):
leads to something positive. And those positive outcomes seem
to consistently emerge under specific conditions.
Exactly. When people connect with others,
give back, find a sense of purpose, made meaning out of
struggle, or, crucially, when they simply believe they are
capable of handling the demands they face, the truly toxic
effects seem most strongly linked to that core belief that
(46:30):
stress is purely harmful and must be avoided.
So the ultimate question the author leaves us with isn't how
can I eliminate stress, but rather do I believe I have the
capacity to transform stress into something good?
It shifts the power dynamic, doesn't it?
From being a victim of external circumstances to recognizing an
internal capacity and agency youcan cultivate.
(46:51):
Absolutely. And as a final thought to leave
our listeners with, Mcgonigal poses that really provocative
question in the book. If I could magically remove all
the painful experiences I've hadin my life, I would do so.
She encourages readers to honestly consider their own
answer. It's a tough question because
often accepting our past struggles, acknowledging how
(47:11):
they've shaped us, warts and all, is actually part of finding
the courage to grow from our present challenges.
Denying the value in past hardship can make it harder to
find strength now. And the evidence for this growth
mindset, this capacity to transform stress, isn't just
locked away in academic journals, as we've seen today.
It's everywhere. It's in your own life, if you
look closely. It's in the stories of people
(47:33):
you admire. It's in the resilience woven
into the human spirit. So we really encourage you as
you go about your week to maybe pay a little more attention to
your own stress mindset. How do you talk to yourself when
things get tough? How do you interpret those
physical signals of stress? And consider how maybe, just
maybe, shifting that perspective, embracing the
(47:54):
challenge, reaching out for connection, or focusing on your
values might change not just howyou feel, but what you're
capable of achieving. It's about empowering yourself
to find the strength, the courage, and the compassion that
often lie dormant within stressful experiences just
waiting to be accessed. Thank you so much for joining us
on this deep dive into the upside of stress.
(48:14):
Until next time, keep exploring,keep questioning, and keep
digging into what truly matters.
Welcome, curious minds, to another deep dive.
Today we're tackling something, well, something that touches
every single one of our lives. Stress.
Right. And you know, we hear about it
constantly. Manage it, reduce it, avoid it.
Exactly. But what if everything you
thought you knew about stress was wrong?
Seriously. What if the real danger isn't
(00:22):
stress itself, but your belief about it?
Sounds kind of crazy? Doesn't.
It it does sound pretty out there at first glance, but
there's this bombshell scientific finding from a study
back in 1998, actually, that completely upended the work of
Kelly Mcgonigal, the author whose book we're exploring
today. Oh yeah, I remember reading
about that transition for her. She was all about stress
reduction, right? Teaching people how bad it was.
(00:43):
Totally dedicated her career to it.
Then she comes across this huge study. 30,000 adults tracked
over eight years and the results?
While they were stark, experiencing high levels of
stress significantly increase the risk of dying, A huge jump
like 43%. Well, OK, that sounds like the
standard message, right? Stress kills.
Exactly. But, and this is the absolute
(01:05):
kicker, the part that changes everything, this increased risk,
this really dramatic effect onlyapplied to the people who also
believed that stress was harmingtheir health.
Wait, wait, hold on. Only for them.
So if you were stressed out of your mind, but you didn't think
it was bad for you. Then the added risk just wasn't
there, gone. In fact those individuals high
(01:25):
stress but didn't see it as harmful.
They actually had the lowest risk of death of anyone in the
whole study. Lower than people who reported
very little stress. Even lower than them.
It's almost unbelievable, isn't it?
It wasn't the stress alone, it was the deadly cocktail stress,
plus the belief that stress is harmful.
That specific combination provedlethal.
(01:46):
That is, that's profound. And when you start putting
numbers to that, it really hits home, the book points out.
Over those eight years, the researchers estimated, was it
182,000 Americans might have died prematurely.
Yep, 182,000 just because they believe stress was bad for them.
That's just staggering. It really is.
I mean put it in perspective. If believing stress is bad for
you was listed as an official cause of death, it would have
(02:09):
been the 15th leading cause in the US back then.
No way. Yes, way.
According to the CDC from aroundthat time, it would rank higher
than skin cancer, higher than HIV AIDS, even higher than
homicide. That's.
Unbelievable. Think about all the messages we
get, every magazine cover, everyhealth blog.
Stress is toxic. Exactly.
(02:30):
And those messages, however well-intentioned, might actually
be contributing to the very problem they're trying to solve.
It's a real paradox. And for the author Kelly
Mcgonigal, as she talks about inthe book, this finding just
completely rocked her world. I mean, imagine.
Oh, absolutely. Here she is a respected health
psychologist, on stage, writing books, teaching courses, all
(02:50):
centered on the idea that stressis this dangerous thing we need
to fight to manage, to avoid at all costs.
She thought she was helping people.
Absolutely did. And then this research lands and
she has to face this like, terrifying possibility.
What if by constantly hammering home how bad stress was, she
might have inadvertently been doing, well, more harm than
(03:11):
good? Wow, that takes guts to
confront, like a doctor realizing the prescribed
medicine might be worsening the illness.
Immense guts and real intellectual honesty.
Many people might just dismiss afinding like that, you know,
find flaws, exlain it away, rotect their existing framework.
Sure, confirmation bias is owerful.
Totally. But she didn't.
(03:32):
She saw it as exciting as the kind of science that forces you
to fundamentally rethink everything.
And that's really why this book,The Upside of Stress, is so
compelling and important. It's born from that kind of
courageous reevaluation. And that, everyone listening,
sets the stage perfectly. For our deep dive today, we're
digging into Kelly Mcgonigal's book, and our mission really is
(03:52):
to challenge those assumptions we all have about stress.
We're going to explore some pretty surprising science
insights that might genuinely rewire how you think about your
own stressful experiences. And ultimately, we want to
understand how your mindset, that core way you see the world,
can fundamentally change your relationship with stress.
(04:13):
Yeah, and just to be clear, thisisn't about like, ignoring
hardship or pretending tough times don't exist.
It's definitely not that kind oftoxic positivity.
Just think happy thoughts through real struggle.
Right, it's not about pretendingstress feels good.
Not at all. It's more about uncovering this
kind of innate capacity we all have to, well, maybe even thrive
(04:33):
amidst challenges, not by wishing them away, but by
shifting our perspective on them.
So we'll look at the data, the science.
And we'll unpack some really powerful stories from people
who've actually lived these principles and look at the
practical ways you might apply this.
The goal is really to walk away with a fresh outlook, armed with
some solid science and real world examples that show just
how much our beliefs shape not just our feelings, but our
(04:56):
actual physical reality. It's a journey into the power of
the mind really, how it can be our best ally or sometimes kind
of an unwitting adversary when life gets tough.
OK, so let's really dig into this core idea first, that our
beliefs, our mindsets can literally add years to our
lives. This goes way beyond just
(05:17):
stress, right? It sets the foundation.
It really does, and it might sound a bit, I don't know, woo
woo or self helpy at first, but the book grounds it in some
pretty solid science that Mcgonigal was already aware of
from health psychology. The mind body connection is just
way stronger than we usually acknowledge.
So what kind of studies are we talking about?
(05:37):
Well, one of the classics she points to is from Yale.
Researchers followed middle-agedadults for like 2 decades,
tracking their attitudes towardsgetting older.
OK. And what did they find?
It was pretty remarkable actually.
People who had a positive attitude about aging lived on
average 7.6 years longer than those who held negative views
about it. 7 1/2 years, that's that's huge.
(05:59):
It's massive and the book reallyputs it in context.
We think about, you know, exercise, not smoking, keeping
blood pressure down, all crucial, obviously.
They add maybe what, three or four years on average?
Right, those are the big ones wealways hear about.
But this mindset shift, just howyou thought about getting older,
had nearly double the impact. Your perspective on aging
potentially being more powerful than quitting smoking or hitting
(06:20):
the gym regularly. That's a real aha.
Moment, isn't it? Absolutely is.
Wow. And it wasn't just about aging,
was it? There was something about trust,
too. Yeah, another fascinating one
from Duke University researchers.
They followed older adults over 55 for 15 years, looking
specifically at trust. Trust in other people.
Exactly. Could you generally trust
(06:41):
others, or were you more cynical?
And the results were striking. A big majority, like 70% of
those who believed most people could be trusted.
We're still alive at the end of the study.
And the cynical group? Sadly, the opposite.
Around 60% of those with a cynical, distrustful view had
passed away. It wasn't just about feeling
grumpy. That cynical worldview was
(07:02):
directly linked to higher mortality.
OK, so if our beliefs about something as general as aging or
as fundamental as trusting fellow humans can have such a
measurable physical impact on how long we live?
Then it starts to seem much moreplausible, almost logical, that
how you think about something ascommon and impactful as stress
could also be a major factor in your health and longevity.
(07:24):
It really builds the case that these mindsets aren't just, you
know, fleeting thoughts or moods.
They're powerful forces shaping our biology.
Precisely which leads us right into defining what a mindset
actually is. According to the book, it's
crucial to distinguish it from something like the placebo
effect. Right, because placebo is
powerful, we know that. Take a sugar pill, believe it's
medicine and sometimes you feel better.
(07:46):
But that's usually seen as temporary, right?
Based on a specific expectation.Exactly.
A placebo is often a short term response to a specific
suggestion or hope. A mindset, as Mcgonigal and
researchers like Alia Crumb define it, is much deeper.
It's a core belief that literally shapes your reality.
Shapes your reality? How so?
Well, it influences not just your thoughts and feelings, but
(08:07):
your objective physical reactions, your Physiology and
as we just saw, your long term health, happiness, even success.
It's like a filter you see the world through.
I like the analogy the book uses, comparing A mindset to a
computer's operating system. Yeah, that's a great one.
Like iOS or Windows, it's running constantly in the
background, shaping every singleinteraction, every
interpretation, how you respond to everything.
(08:29):
Or as a placebo is more like a single A you downloaded or a
temporary software update for one specific issue.
Exactly. The mindset is the fundamental O
itself. It's always there, always
influencing, and its effects compound overtime, snowballing
into really big differences in your life.
(08:49):
It dictates what you notice, what you feel, and how your body
physically responds. OK, that makes a lot of sense.
It's the underlying framework and the research showing this in
action is just fascinating. The book introduces Alia Crumb's
work. Let's start with that
housekeeper study. It's pretty famous now, isn't
it? It really is, and for good
reason. Grown was super interested in
this idea. Could our beliefs literally
(09:11):
create our physical reality? So she designed this ingenious
study with hotel housekeepers. And these women, their jobs are
incredibly physically demanding,right?
Oh absolutely. Think about it.
Flipping heavy mattresses, pushing huge carts, endless
vacuuming. It burns a ton of calories, like
over 300 an hour. That's serious exercise,
comparable to weight lifting or cycling.
(09:32):
So they're basically working outall day long.
They are, but here's the crazy part.
When Crumb first survey them 2/3, two out of three believe
they didn't exercise regularly at all, and a full third thought
they got no exercise whatsoever.Despite working physically
demanding jobs every single day.Right, they were living the life
(09:52):
of an athlete without the mindset of 1 and get this, their
bodies actually reflected that belief.
What do you mean? Their average blood pressure?
Their body fat percentage, theirweight?
It all lined up with what you'd expect from someone leading a
sedentary life. Even though they were constantly
moving, their Physiology matchedtheir perception of being
inactive. It's wild.
It's like their bodies were listening to the story their
(10:13):
minds were telling them. So what did Crum do?
She decided to change the story in four of the seven hotels.
She gave the housekeepers a short 15 minute presentation.
Simple stuff really. Plus some posters for their
break rooms. And the presentation just told
them. It just clearly explained how
their daily work tasks, making beds, scrubbing floors, all of
(10:34):
it was exercise. It even listed the calories
burned. It framed them as meeting even
exceeding the Surgeon General's recommendations for an active
lifestyle and told them they should expect the health
benefits. So no deception, just
highlighting the reality of their physical activity.
Exactly, just changing their perception of the work they were
already doing. And the results after just four
(10:55):
weeks? Absolutely stunning the
housekeepers who got this information, who now saw
themselves as exercisers. They lost weight, they lost body
fat, their blood pressure dropped.
They even reported liking their jobs more.
And, crucially, they hadn't changed anything else.
No extra gym time, no diet changes.
Nope. No reported changes in behavior
outside of work. The only difference was their
(11:15):
mindset. Their perception shifted and
their biology followed suit. It's like finding out you've
secretly been a superhero all along, and when someone points
it out, your powers actually manifest.
That is just incredible. And the control group, the ones
who didn't get the presentation.Showed none of those
improvements. It really isolates the effect of
the mindset shift. It makes you seriously question
(11:36):
how many other beliefs we hold might be shaping our health
without us even realizing it. It really does.
OK, this gets even more fascinating with the stress
hormone study Crum did. This involved a mock job
interview designed to be stressful, right?
Yep, and the goal here was even more more ambitious.
Could changing someone's mindsetabout stress actually alter
(11:56):
their biological response at thehormonal level?
So before the stressful interview, participants watch
different videos. Some framing stress is
enhancing, some is debilitating.Exactly.
Then during the stress test, they collected saliva samples to
measure 2 key stress hormones, cortisol, which is the one most
people know. Right, the stress hormone gives
you energy, but too much is bad news.
(12:18):
Suppresses other functions. Pretty much, but they also
measure DHEA dehydroepiandrostrone.
It's less famous, but super important.
DHEA, tell us more about that one.
It's kind of the unsung hero in the stress response.
That's a great way to put it. It's a neurosteroid.
Think of like, OK, testosterone helps your muscles grow stronger
from physical challenges, right?DHEA helps your brain grow
(12:40):
stronger and more resilient fromstressful experiences.
It promotes growth and learning in the brain.
Wow. OK, Brain fertilizer.
Brain fertilizer, growth hormoneand stress.
I love those analogies. And crucially, it also helps
counteract some of the potentially negative effects of
cortisol. It speeds up wound repair,
boosts the immune system. So Crum looked at the ratio of
(13:01):
DHEA to cortisol. She called it the growth index.
Basically, how much growth and repair is happening alongside
the stress response? OK.
So you have the action hormone cortisol and the growth repair
hormone DHEA, and the mindset intervention aimed to shift that
ratio. Precisely.
And guess what happened? Tell me, did the videos change
the hormone levels? Well, interestingly, cortisol
(13:22):
levels went up for everyone during the stressful interview.
That part wasn't affected by thevideos.
The stressor was still stressful.
OK, makes sense. But the participants who watch
the video framing stress as enhancing, as helpful, they
released significantly more DHEAand consequently they had a
higher growth index, more growthrelative to the stress.
(13:42):
No way. So their bodies produced a
different kind of stress response based purely on the
message they received beforehand.
Exactly. Their mindset didn't just make
them feel better about the stress, it created a different
biological reality in their bloodstream.
It changed their hormonal profile.
Viewing stress as a resource, assomething that can help them,
(14:03):
literally shifted their Physiology towards growth and
resilience. That's a total game changer.
It means our minds aren't just passively reacting to stress,
they're actively directing the body's response.
The story we tell ourselves about stress determines, in
part, the biological outcome. It really underscores the
difference between a simple placebo and a deeper mindset.
(14:24):
This isn't just a fleeting expectation.
It's tapping into a core belief that changes how your
fundamental systems operate. And these changes, as the book
argues, can snowball over time. Which leads perfectly into these
mindset interventions, the idea that relatively small shifts can
trigger massive, long lasting change.
Let's talk about that social belonging study with Ivy League
(14:46):
freshmen. Seems specific, but the results
were huge. Yeah, this work by Greg Walton
is fascinating. It tackles that.
Really common, often painful feeling of not belonging,
especially in new challenging environments like starting
college. We've all felt that right?
Like everyone else fits in and you're the odd one out.
Totally, but the problem is mostpeople feel it, yet they think
(15:08):
they're the only one feeling it.And that belief I'm the only one
struggling can lead to all sortsof negative things.
Imposter syndrome, hiding problems, avoiding challenges,
basically creating a self fulfilling prophecy of isolation
and failure. So how did Walton intervene?
It was surprisingly simple, wasn't it?
Deceptively simple. Participating freshman.
Just read some survey results from older students, juniors and
(15:30):
seniors. These older students talked
about their initial struggles with belonging when they first
arrived. OK, normalizing the feeling.
Exactly. And crucially, they also talked
about how those feelings changedovertime, how they eventually
found their footing and felt like they belonged.
Then the freshman wrote short essays reflecting on their own
experiences and made brief videos sharing this message for
(15:53):
future students. That was it, just reading
stories and reflecting. That was the core of it, a
single brief intervention. And the impact, especially for
minority students, who often face greater belonging
challenges. Astonishing for African American
students of that study, this onetime intervention significantly
boosted their GP as over the next three years it basically
(16:13):
closed the typical achievement gap between minority and non
minority students at that institution.
Wow, from 1 short session? Yep.
And it didn't just affect grades.
It changed how they approached problems, seeing them as
temporary, solvable challenges rather than signs they didn't
belong. It even shifted their social
lives. They were more likely to find
mentors, build closer friendships.
(16:36):
As Walton says, it starts psychologically but becomes
sociological. It ripples outwards.
That ripple effect is incredible.
The book mentions similar interventions having huge
impacts elsewhere too, right? Better than scholarships for
retention having dropout rates. Yeah, the broader impacts are
stunning. Boosting college retention.
More than a $3500 scholarship. Having dropout rates in another
(16:58):
study, Helping female engineering students feel more
welcome and connect better with male peers, it just shows the
immense leverage you can get by shifting a core belief about
yourself and your place in the world.
It really challenges that commonnarrative, doesn't it?
The author shares that story about David Yeager trying an
intervention in a high school gym.
Oh, right, with 129th graders, probably not the most receptive
(17:20):
audience initially, and this athletic staff member comes up
and says basically, it's too late for these kids, you're
wasting your time. That sentiment is so common,
isn't it, that some problems arejust too entrenched, some people
are just too far gone for change?
Exactly. It's a deeply held cultural
belief, as the author points out, that real change has to be
hard, slow, require massive effort.
(17:43):
Like moving mountains. But the science, the mindset
science, it suggests something different.
It really does. It suggests that small shifts in
perspective, tweaking that internal operating system can
trigger these profound cascades of change.
It pushes the limits of what we think is possible.
It's not always about fixing theexternal circumstances first.
(18:03):
Sometimes changing your mind is the first, most powerful step.
It's a message of hope really, that change is possible and
sometimes the key is closer thanwe think.
It's in our own perspective. OK, so we've established the
incredible power of mindsets. Now let's rewind a bit.
How did we get stuck with this largely negative fear based view
of stress in the 1st place? Where did this toxic stress
(18:24):
narrative originate? It seems a lot of it traces back
to one guy, right? Han Saleh early 20th century and
his initial experiments sound pretty unpleasant for the
subjects involved. Definitely not fun if you were
one of his Lab Rats. He started by injecting rats
with various ovarian extracts, hoping to find a new hormone.
But instead he noticed that no matter what he injected, even
(18:45):
just saline solution, the rats develop this consistent set of
symptoms. The sick syndrome, he called.
It exactly gastric ulcers, shrunken immune tissues,
enlarged adrenal glands, a general state of breakdown.
And he realized it wasn't the specific substance.
Right. It was the experience itself,
the stress of being handled, injected, essentially tortured.
He found he could produce the same syndrome by exposing rats
(19:08):
to other intense demands. Extreme cold, extreme heat,
forced exercise until exhaustion, loud noises.
Basically anything really unpleasant and demanding and the
rats eventually died. They did so he coined the term
stress to describe both the external demands he was placing
on them and their bodies. Internal response that breakdown
syndrome. So yeah, when we say the stress
(19:30):
is killing me, we're kind of echoing Silly's observations on
those poor rats. Morbid but interesting
connection. It is, but here's where Salai
made what the author calls the Grand Leap.
He had previously been a physician and observed human
patients with similar nonspecific sick syndromes.
Fatigue. Low fever, aches.
(19:51):
He connected his rat findings tohumans.
OK, that seems logical up to a point.
But then he defined stress incredibly broadly, not just a
severe trauma or torture, but isany demand made on the body,
anything that requires adaptation?
So suddenly everything is stress.
Pretty much. And by applying his findings
from chronically tortured dying rats to all human demands, he
(20:11):
essentially painted all stress as inherently damaging, toxic,
leading down the past to diseaseand breakdown.
This really set the stage for our modern fear of stress.
So dealing with a looming deadline, or juggling kids
schedules, or even hearing frustrating news under Solai's
broad umbrella, that all gets lumped into the same toxic
category as, say, prolonged abuse or extreme physical
(20:35):
hardship. That became the implication,
yeah. And it ignores the nuances, the
different types of stress responses we have.
It created this monolithic view of stress as purely bad.
And this pervasive fear, this idea that all stress is harmful,
can lead to some really counterproductive, even
dangerous behaviors, as the bookpoints out, like that survey of
pregnant women. Oh, that's a tragic example.
(20:57):
Some women reported drinking alcohol during pregnancy
specifically to reduce stress, believing the stress itself was
more harmful to the baby than the alcohol.
One woman literally said it's better for me if I drink.
At least the stress is going away.
That just shows how distorted things can get when you view
stress as this all consuming evil you have to escape at any
cost. It's a terrible paradox, and
(21:18):
it's exactly why we need to movebeyond Salai's limited fear
based model. Our bodies are way more
sophisticated than that. We have more tools in the Stress
Response Toolkit than just fightor flight.
OK, so let's unpack those other tools.
If it's not just fight or flight, what else happens when
we're stressed? What are these other biological
pathways the book describes? The book lays out a much richer
(21:41):
framework. There are at least three other
key responses. First, there's the challenge
response. Challenge.
OK, what does that look like? This kicks in when you're facing
a demand, something tough, but deep down you feel like you have
the resources to handle it. You feel capable.
So maybe nervous but not terrified.
Exactly. Your heart rate goes up,
adrenaline flows, your brain gets more energy or mobilizing
(22:03):
resources. But instead of fear, you feel
focused, energized, maybe even excited, ready to perform.
Like an athlete, prefer race or public speaking when you feel
prepared, perfect examples. And crucially in a challenge
response, you release more of that DHEA, the growth hormone we
talked about. So it's a state that not only
fuels performance, but also promotes learning and resilience
(22:25):
from the experience. It's stress energizing you for
action and growth. OK, challenge response.
Got it. What?
Else second, there's the tend tobe friend response.
This was fascinating, driven largely by the hormone oxytocin.
Oxytocin, the cuddle hormone or love molecule.
That's the one though, it does much more than just cuddling in
a tend to be friend response. Stress actually motivates you to
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connect with others. You might feel an urge to
protect your loved ones, check in on friends, seek support or
offer help. So instead of just looking out
for #1 stress can make us more social, more caring.
Absolutely. It taps into our nature as
social animals. It boosts courage, empathy,
trust. It's about strengthening social
bonds as a way to cope with threat.
(23:08):
It recognizes that there's safety and strength in
connection. So when disaster strikes and
people immediately start helpingneighbors or calling family,
that's tendon befriend in action.
Precisely. It's a core survival instinct
just as much as fight or flight.OK, challenge tendon befriend.
What's the third one? The third is the learning grow
response. This is often part of the
(23:29):
recovery phase after a stressfulevent.
The very hormones released during stress, like cortisol and
DHEA, but also things like nervegrowth factor actually help your
brain rewire itself. Rewire itself?
How? They promote neuroplasticity,
Yeah. Basically, they make your brain
more adaptable, better able to learn from the experience you
just had. People who have a robust release
(23:51):
of these hormones during stress often bounce back faster and are
better equipped to handle similar challenges in the
future. So stress, or rather the
recovery from it, can literally make our brains stronger and.
If we have the right mindset andallow that process to happen,
yes. It's how adversity can genuinely
lead to growth. The book gives a great real
world example of applying these different responses, doesn't it?
(24:13):
That couple, Riva and Lakshman on the stressful flight.
Oh, that's a fantastic story. They're flying to Australia.
Long flight black Sherman needs AC PAP machine for sleep apnea
which has to be plugged into theplanes power outlet.
OK, standard enough on long hauls.
Except the outlet was faulty. It kept coming loose in middle
of the night at 36,000 feet in adark cabin and Reva, who had
(24:38):
recent knee replacements, had tokeep painfully climbing over
seats in the dark to fix it. Super stressful, frustrating
situation. Yeah, definitely not a fight or
flight scenario. What are you going to do?
Fight the power outlet? Flee the plane.
Exactly. But Reva had actually taken
Mcgonigal's course on the science of stress.
She remembered it wasn't just about fight or flight.
(24:59):
So what did they do? How did they apply the different
mindsets? Well, first they acknowledged
the stress. Instead of just getting angry,
they talked about it, supported each other, activating that
tendon. Befriend response.
Thinking about oxytocin helping them connect.
Leaning into the connection. Then Reva consciously decided to
befriend the woman sitting next to them, sharing their problem.
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This small act of connection made the whole situation feel
less isolating and more manageable.
Created a little support system right there.
Smart turning outwards instead of just inwards with
frustration. And they also shifted their
focus. They realized they couldn't
control the faulty outlet, so instead, they focused on the
meaning of the trip. They were going to see their
daughter and meet their first grandchild.
(25:42):
Connecting to purpose the why? Precisely tapping into that
sense of meaning help them see the stressful flight not just as
an ordeal, but it's part of a deeply important journey.
It transformed the experience. They consciously use challenge,
finding ways to cope, tend to befriend, supporting each other
and connecting with the neighborand meaning focus.
(26:04):
It's like they deliberately chose different tools from their
stress response Swiss army knifeinstead of just defaulting to
the hammer of frustration or panic.
That's a perfect analogy. It shows how understanding these
different responses and consciously choosing your
mindset gives you agency even inseemingly uncontrollable
situations. This story beautifully sets up
(26:24):
the next really surprising idea from the book, that a meaningful
life is often, perhaps inherently, A stressful life,
which leads to that counterintuitive question, Is a
highly stressed nation actually a happy nation?
It seems completely backwards, doesn't it?
We equate stress with misery, but the Gallup World Poll data
is pretty mind bending on this. They surveyed people in 121
(26:47):
countries asking about daily stress levels and created a
National Stress Index. And you'd expect high stress
index countries to be miserable,right?
That's what the researchers expected, but they found the
exact opposite The higher a nation's stress index, the
higher its overall well-being scores tended to be.
Higher well-being how? In what ways?
Higher life expectancy, higher GDP per capita and higher
(27:09):
national scores on things like happiness and overall life
satisfaction, even satisfaction with health, work, standard
living, community all tended to be higher in the more stressed
countries. So the most stressed out
countries were also happier and healthier.
How does that even work? It's perplexing at first, but
the key seems to be that the happiest people in the poll
(27:29):
weren't stress free. They were often highly stressed,
but, crucially, they weren't depressed.
Conversely, the unhappiest people often reported a lack of
stress. A lack of stress correlating
with unhappiness. Wow.
It suggests that maybe stress isn't the enemy of happiness,
but perhaps a byproduct of engagement in a life that
matters. And this connects to the
(27:49):
individual level too, right? The book mentions studies
showing people with the most meaningful lives actually report
more worry and more stress. Exactly.
Think about common sources of meaning raising kids.
Immensely meaningful, right? But ask any parent.
It dramatically increases daily stress levels alongside the joy
and laughter. Or starting a business.
Entrepreneurs report insane stress levels.
(28:11):
But also huge satisfaction. Learning, feeling challenged,
making a difference. The things that give our lives
meaning, caring for others, pursuing goals, contributing to
causes. They almost always involve
stress. So maybe feeling stressed isn't
always a sign that something's wrong with your life or that
you're failing. Maybe it's actually a sign that
you're engaged, that you're invested in things that matter
(28:31):
deeply to you, the book suggests.
Stress can be a kind of barometer for how engaged you
are in activities and relationships that are
personally meaningful. A life completely devoid of
stress might actually be, well, a bit empty, lacking in meaning.
That's the provocative idea. It's not that every single
stressor is meaningful, of course not.
(28:52):
But the capacity to find meaningand stress, or to recognize that
stress often accompanies meaning, seems crucial for
well-being. Stress can be the friction that
forces us to clarify what truly matters.
OK, so if stress and meaning areoften intertwined, how do we
navigate that? How do we handle the stressful
parts of a meaningful life without getting completely
overwhelmed? This is where connecting with
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your core values becomes incredibly powerful, like having
a compass in a storm. Values like honesty, courage,
compassion, those kinds of things.
Exactly. The book explains that when you
consciously connect to your personal values during a
stressful time, it changes everything.
You're more likely to believe you can handle the situation,
more likely to take positive action, seek support, and see
(29:35):
the difficulty as temporary, notdefining.
Your values ground you give you direction when things feel
chaotic. Precisely, they shift the focus
from how do I get rid of the stress to how can I act in line
with what matters most to me right now, even amidst this
difficulty. The book suggests that simple.
Remember your values exercise, right?
Like making a bracelet or key chain?
(29:56):
Yeah. A physical reminder.
So in a tough moment, you can look at it and ask, how can I
embody patience here? Or connection, or humor?
It anchors your response. There's that incredibly moving
story about Miriam and Joe dealing with his early
Alzheimer's diagnosis that's about as stressful and
uncontrollable as it gets. A devastating situation, their
future evaporating, but they consciously chose values to
(30:19):
guide them. Miriam chose patience.
Joe chose humor and honesty. And that example of him losing
his phone and finding it in the French?
Right. Instead of frustration or
denial, Joe, remembering his value, just owned it with humor,
admitted he had no clue how it got there.
And that lightened the moment for both of them.
Miriam saw him living his values, and it helped her live
(30:41):
hers. Exactly.
They couldn't stop the disease, but they could choose their
response based on what mattered most deeply to them.
Their connection, their dignity,their shared humanity.
It transformed the stress from something just happening to them
into an invitation to live theirvalues more fully.
It gives you agency back, doesn't it?
Even when the external situationfeels totally out of control,
(31:03):
you can control your response, your alignment with your value.
That's the power of it. It reframes the struggle.
OK, let's shift gears slightly and talk about anxiety, that
specific flavor of stress we feel before something important
or potentially threatening. The jitters, the nerves.
Yes, performance anxiety, something most of us know well.
So the classic scenario, Big presentation, exam, first date.
(31:27):
Your Herc's pounding palms are sweaty.
What's the usual advice? Calm down.
Great. Take deep breaths, relax, try to
chill out. That's what 91% of people
thought was the best advice in Allison Wood Brooks's Harvard
study. But it wasn't, was it?
Nope. Her research found that people
who were instructed to reappraise their anxiety as
excitement, literally just telling themselves I am excited
(31:49):
out loud, performed better. Better how they felt less
anxious. Not necessarily less anxious.
Interestingly, they still felt the arousal, but they felt more
confident, more prepared and objective.
Observers rated their performance, like at a public
speaking task, as more persuasive, more competent, more
confident than the group who tried to calm down.
(32:10):
South reframing the feeling, changing the label from anxiety
to excitement actually improved their performance.
It did. It seemed to channel that
nervous energy productively instead of letting it sabotage
them. And Jeremy Jameson's work builds
on this, showing that counterintuitive, more
physiological stress response can actually lead to better
performance in some situations. Yeah, his findings are wild.
(32:31):
Higher adrenaline during exams correlated with better scores.
Elite soldiers and law enforcement officers who showed
greater physiological stress responses like higher heart
rate, more cortisol during intense simulations actually
performed better. Less likely to give up info or
make critical errors. So being physiologically
stressed was actually adaptive in those high pressure moments
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better than being totally relaxed.
In those contexts, yes, it suggests that the energy
mobilization part of the stress response is crucial for peak
performance. The key is how you interpret and
channel that energy. It's like that rocket launch
analogy again. You need the fire and pressure
to get off the ground. He even did that math anxiety
study, right? Just telling students their
(33:13):
anxiety could help them. Simply giving them that message
that their racing heart meant their body was preparing them to
succeed led to better test scores.
No extra tutoring, just a mindset shift.
And the yoga instructor Mariella, who reframed her pre
class panic as energy to perform.
Perfect example of applying it personally.
(33:34):
She didn't stop feeling the physical sensations, but
changing the story she told herself about those sensations
transformed her experience and allowed her to teach effectively
instead of cancelling classes. It's not about eliminating the
feeling, but changing your relationship to the feeling.
Which brings us to the infamous Trier Social Stress test.
(33:54):
Describe this beast for us. Oh, the TSST is basically
psychological torture designed by scientists.
You're brought into a room with these stern faced experts.
And you were trained actors, basically.
Pretty much trained to be judge mental.
You have to give an impromptu speech about your strengths and
weakness on camera with them frowning, sighing, tapping their
feet, maybe interrupting to say you're doing poorly.
(34:15):
Yikes. And then immediately after you
have to do difficult mental arithmetic out loud, starting
over every time you make a mistake while they continue to
look displeased. It reliably spikes cortisol like
crazy. Sounds absolutely dreadful.
So how did Jameson use this to test the mindset intervention?
Before subjecting people to thisordeal, he gave one group the
mindset intervention message. Your stress response is helpful.
(34:40):
Your pounding heart means more oxygen to your brain.
Embrace it as your body preparing you to meet the
challenge. Basically priming them to see
the stress as enhancing like in crumbs study.
Exactly, and the results were fascinating physiologically and
psychologically. What happened?
Did they feel less stressed? Not necessarily less stressed,
but their bodies responded differently.
(35:02):
Their cardiovascular profile shifted from a threat response,
where blood vessels constrict, to a challenge response, where
vessels dilate, delivering more blood efficiently.
So their bodies literally reacted as if facing a challenge
they could meet rather than an overwhelming threat.
Precisely. And behaviorally, they felt more
confident, less anxious overall,performed better on both the
(35:23):
speech and the math tasks, and we're less distracted by
thoughts of failure. They went from I can't handle
this to I've got this just from that brief mindset training
beforehand. Right.
And the altar emphasizes this isn't just a one off trick.
These shifts can snowball each time you successfully navigate
stress. Using this mindset, you build
confidence, reinforcing the belief that you can handle
(35:45):
pressure, which helps in the next stressful situation and the
next. It builds resilience overtime.
This really highlights the danger of the opposite approach
though, trying to avoid anxiety altogether.
Kelly Mcgonigal is incredibly open about her own struggles
with this, particularly her fearof flying.
Yeah, her personal story is so powerful.
Years of crippling fear, panic attacks, just thinking about
(36:08):
flying, leading her to avoid planes completely.
A classic anxiety avoidance cycle.
Textbook case. And the irony, as psychologists
know and the book points out, isthat trying desperately to avoid
stress or anxiety often creates more stress in the long run.
It depletes your resources, narrows your world.
The book mentions studies linking high stress avoidance to
(36:29):
depression, more life problems. Exactly.
Trying to build a life purely around maximizing pleasure and
avoiding pain often leads to a life that feels shallow,
disconnected, lacking meaning. The avoidance itself becomes a
major source of stress and limitation.
Like a mogma realized she was paying the price of fear whether
I flew or not. Avoiding planes didn't make the
(36:51):
fear vanish, it just meant she paid in missed opportunities,
strained relationships, a smaller life.
That realization was her breakthrough.
She made the conscious, terrifying choice to be afraid
and fly anyway, prioritizing meaning seeing family
professional opportunities over the illusion of anxiety free
comfort. Now she flies constantly.
(37:11):
It's about choosing courage overcomfort when something important
is at stake. It's such a powerful lesson and
we see it again with Sue Cotter's Welfare to Work
students. The standard stress management
approach was actually harming them.
It was completely backfiring, giving people already facing
immense systemic stress checklists that basically said
your life is incredibly stressful and it's going to kill
you. Well, that's just paralyzing,
(37:32):
isn't it? It reinforces helplessness.
Totally counterproductive, so Cotter flipped the script.
She did. Instead of the scare tactics,
she taught them the science we've been discussing that
they're racing heart. Was their body preparing them
for action? Mobilizing energy?
She helped them reframe stress as fuel and coached them on
making action plans for inevitable setbacks instead of
(37:52):
just giving up. Empowering them to engage with
the stress, not just be victims of it.
Exactly, It's like trying to avoid shadows by staying in the
dark. You just miss out on all the
light. Sometimes you have to step into
the challenge, anxiety and all, to live fully.
So we've seen how mindset shapesthe stress experience, how our
bodies have multiple responses and how engaging with stress,
(38:13):
even anxiety, can be beneficial.Now let's tackle that really
profound idea. Growth through adversity, not
just bouncing back, but actuallybecoming stronger or finding
deeper meaning because of suffering post traumatic growth.
It's a. Powerful concept and often
misunderstood. It's not about saying trauma is
good, It's about acknowledging that positive psychological
(38:34):
changes can and often do emerge from the struggle with highly
challenging life circumstances. The book shares Cassandra
Nelson's story after the devastating loss of her infant
daughter, Margo. How did she navigate that
unimaginable pain towards growth?
It was obviously an incredibly difficult journey through
intense grief, but connecting with a support group, Hand of
(38:56):
the Peninsula, was crucial. It provided space to process, to
remember Margot, and eventually to find a way forward.
Now Cassandra volunteers extensively for that same
organization, helping other grieving families.
Turning her own pain into a source of profound compassion
and service for others. Exactly.
That transformation of sufferinginto meaning is a hallmark of
(39:17):
PTG, and it's surprisingly common.
Really, it feels like it would be rare.
The research suggests otherwise.High percentages of survivors
report experiencing significant positive changes after
incredibly diverse traumas, terrorist attacks, natural
disasters, serious illness like HIV, AIDS combat, loss of loved
ones, even emergency workers dealing with repeated trauma
(39:38):
exposure. What kind of positive changes to
People report? Usually things like the greater
appreciation for life, stronger relationships, discovering a
sense of inner strength they never knew they had, identifying
new possibilities or paths in life, and often a deeper sense
of spirituality or compassion. Jennifer White's story Founding
Hope After Project after her mother's death seems like
(40:01):
another great example organizingservice projects in her mom's
memory. Yes, and her quote perfectly
captures the nuance. I like who I am better today
than before she died, but that doesn't mean that I don't wish
you were still here. Right.
It doesn't erase the pain or make the loss OK.
The growth coexists with the grief.
Absolutely and paradoxically, research often finds that the
(40:21):
severity of the initial distresscan positively predict the
extent of eventual growth. The struggle itself seems to be
the catalyst, the engine of transformation.
It's about finding the good while coping, not denying the
bad. Finding diamonds in the ashes,
as you said earlier. So if growth is possible, how
did the stories we tell about ourselves, about others,
influence this process? Narratives are hugely important.
(40:44):
Think about Mary Wiltenberg, thejournalist who wrote about Sue
Mladnick, the 9/11 widow, twice.Right, the first article a year
later was just raw grief and despair.
So much so that it haunted the journalist herself.
It was pure tragedy. But the second Article, 10 years
on, told the different story. A story of moving forward,
finding purpose. Yes, it showed how the family
(41:05):
had integrated the laws, how they celebrated Jeff's life, how
they came together as team identic on 9/11.
It was a story of resilience, meaning and hope.
And that story filled the journalist with hope rather than
despair. It highlights the impact of
focusing only on the trauma versus focusing on the recovery
and rebuilding process as well. Precisely which connects to that
(41:25):
worrying finding about news coverage of tragedies.
Remember the Boston Marathon bombing study?
Yeah, people who watched hours of news coverage had higher PTSD
risk than some people actually at the event.
Chilling. It really is.
It underscores the potential harm of narratives focused
solely on damage and victimhood.That's why organizations like
Images and Voices of Hope push for restorative narratives,
(41:48):
stories that include the struggle but also highlight the
process of recovery, resilience and meaning making, showing the
path through. And this relates to vicarious
resilience, right? The idea that just witnessing
others strength can strengthen us.
Exactly. It started with observations of
therapists being inspired by their clients recovery, but it
applies more broadly when we engage with stories of
(42:11):
resilience, when we witness bothsomeone's pain and their
resources for coping and growing.
It can remind us of our own capacity, strengthen our own
hope. We can draw strength from their
journey. Which is the opposite of that
isolating feeling, that sense ofbeing alone and suffering.
That feeling that everyone else has it figured out while you're
a mess inside. That feeling is such a barrier.
(42:31):
We judge our messy insides by other people's polished
outsides, and it keeps us trapped, prevents us from
reaching out or recognizing our shared humanity.
So the antidote is cultivating that common humanity mindset the
book talks about. Yes, recognizing that struggle,
imperfection, vulnerability, it's not a personal failing.
It's just part of being human. Everyone faces challenges.
(42:54):
Everyone feels inadequate sometimes.
People who really internalize this common humanity mindset are
happier, more resilient, and, ironically, more willing to be
open about their struggle. Which then allows them to
connect and get support like Cynthia the night before her
surgery. Oh, that's such a beautiful
example. Instead of just feeling her own
individual fear, she consciouslyconnected with this imagined,
(43:15):
nameless, faceless community of others facing medical anxiety
worldwide. Waiting for tests, starting
chemo, facing surgery. Right.
She felt connected to their struggles and imagine their
courage, feeling bravery livery by extension.
She even created that mantra Maywe all know our own strength,
offering it to them and herself.It shifted her from feeling
isolated in fear to feeling partof a collective, courageous
(43:37):
human experience. That power of connection, of
shared purpose, is so central toresilience, like Lennon flowers
creating the dinner party for young adults who've lost loved
ones. She felt so isolated in her
grief, finding pity or avoidanceinstead of understanding.
So she created the community. She needs spaces for people to
share stories, honestly connect authentically over shared loss
(43:59):
being the starting point for thecommunity you crave.
And we see that theme of findingmeaning and connection through
service again and again, those Louisville bus drivers becoming
safety ambassadors. Such a great example, facing
safety concerns, instead of justretreating, they embrace a new
role, actively greeting passengers, creating a sense of
community on the bus. And it boosted their sense of
meaning and buffered against burnout.
(44:21):
Hugely connecting to that biggerthan self purpose, that simple
act of human connection with each passenger transform their
work experience, finding dignityand meaning in daily
interactions. Similar to the EMS core in
Alameda County, training disadvantaged young men to
become EMTs in their own neighborhoods.
Taking young men's often seen aspredators and empowering them to
(44:44):
become protectors. Giving them skills, purpose, a
positive identity rooted in service.
Helping them find strength by helping others, often overcoming
immense personal adversity in the process.
And finally, the Soul Train running program in Boston for at
risk youth. Kids facing incredible
challenges, many with PTSD. The program score isn't
(45:05):
competition, it's mutual support.
Deconstructing impossible together.
The goal is getting everyone across the finish line
supporting each other. Exactly.
Never competitive against someone else.
And in that environment where their strength is needed, where
they contribute to the group's success, these kids flourish.
They show up, they support each other, they achieve things they
never thought possible. It's that barn raising analogy.
(45:27):
Collective effort lifting everyone.
Wow, we have covered so much ground here, from Sally's rats
and the history of stress research, all the way to
neuroscience global surveys and these incredibly moving stories
of personal and community transformation.
It's been quite a journey through the books, key ideas and
I think the core take away from the upside of stress isn't
(45:47):
really about settling. Whether stress is definitively
good or bad, life's just not that simple, is it?
No, it's far more nuanced than that.
It really boils down to the stance we choose to take towards
stress. The book compellingly argues
that for almost every negative outcome we associate with
stress, there's a flip side, an exception where stress actually
(46:09):
leads to something positive. And those positive outcomes seem
to consistently emerge under specific conditions.
Exactly. When people connect with others,
give back, find a sense of purpose, made meaning out of
struggle, or, crucially, when they simply believe they are
capable of handling the demands they face, the truly toxic
effects seem most strongly linked to that core belief that
(46:30):
stress is purely harmful and must be avoided.
So the ultimate question the author leaves us with isn't how
can I eliminate stress, but rather do I believe I have the
capacity to transform stress into something good?
It shifts the power dynamic, doesn't it?
From being a victim of external circumstances to recognizing an
internal capacity and agency youcan cultivate.
(46:51):
Absolutely. And as a final thought to leave
our listeners with, Mcgonigal poses that really provocative
question in the book. If I could magically remove all
the painful experiences I've hadin my life, I would do so.
She encourages readers to honestly consider their own
answer. It's a tough question because
often accepting our past struggles, acknowledging how
(47:11):
they've shaped us, warts and all, is actually part of finding
the courage to grow from our present challenges.
Denying the value in past hardship can make it harder to
find strength now. And the evidence for this growth
mindset, this capacity to transform stress, isn't just
locked away in academic journals, as we've seen today.
It's everywhere. It's in your own life, if you
look closely. It's in the stories of people
(47:33):
you admire. It's in the resilience woven
into the human spirit. So we really encourage you as
you go about your week to maybe pay a little more attention to
your own stress mindset. How do you talk to yourself when
things get tough? How do you interpret those
physical signals of stress? And consider how maybe, just
maybe, shifting that perspective, embracing the
(47:54):
challenge, reaching out for connection, or focusing on your
values might change not just howyou feel, but what you're
capable of achieving. It's about empowering yourself
to find the strength, the courage, and the compassion that
often lie dormant within stressful experiences just
waiting to be accessed. Thank you so much for joining us
on this deep dive into the upside of stress.
(48:14):
Until next time, keep exploring,keep questioning, and keep
digging into what truly matters.
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