August 1, 2025 • 39 mins
In This Is Marketing, Seth Godin challenges the old playbook. No more shouting, scamming, or spamming, just real impact through empathy, trust, and connection. This episode breaks down how to find your smallest viable audience and serve them deeply.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Have you ever found yourself picturing marketing as this,
well, this loud, slightly embarrassing hustle?
Maybe it's that infomercial shouting from a late night TV
screen, you know, Or those endless spam emails just
clogging up your inbox. Or even that awkward salesperson
who just won't take no for an answer.
For a long time, it's felt like this necessary evil, Maybe a bit
(00:20):
of a shameful art, right? Well, today we're diving head
first into Seth Godin's remarkable book, This Is
Marketing. And let me tell you, this isn't
just another business book. It's really a radical
redefinition of what marketing truly is, a profound paradigm
shift. Actually.
Our mission today is to unpack Godin's core arguments.
We're going to peel back the layers and reveal how marketing
(00:42):
has sort of transformed how it'smoved from being a pushy, often
kind of despised sales tactic into, well, a powerful force for
genuine connection, deep empathy, and even meaningful
societal change. It's really about understanding
the desires and dreams of those you seek to serve.
It's about cultivating those deep, unseen root systems, you
know, not just admiring the visible height of a sunflower.
(01:03):
And honestly, once you hear Godin's perspective, it's kind
of hard to see marketing any other way.
Absolutely. And Godin doesn't waste anytime,
does he? Right from the beginning of the
book, he challenges our our outdated notions of marketing.
Yeah, for so long, marketing really did feel like A1 sided
shouting match. You see it in the books,
critique of what he calls selfish mass tactics.
(01:25):
Think of those old TV ads, you know, just blasting their
message indiscriminately to millions, or the Top 40 radio
hits that were supposed to define our collective taste.
But the author states unequivocally that this approach
doesn't work anymore. It's an advertising trap, as he
puts it, a trap that actually stopped us from building truly
useful, resonant stories with people for most of our
(01:46):
lifetimes. Marketing was advertising, and
the book makes it abundantly clear that now, well, it simply
isn't. The very question, how do I get
the word out is now precisely the wrong question to ask.
It's just not about volume anymore.
Not at all. It's about resonance and
connection. And he absolutely doesn't pull
any punches when he talks about shameless marketers, does he?
The ones who spam, trick and coerce people into buying
(02:08):
something. He points out that this kind of
behavior has unfortunately made many ethical marketers feel a
real sense of shame about their profession, made them almost
hide their best, most generous work.
But the book helps us rethink this, offering a profoundly
different definition. It says effective marketing is
fundamentally about understanding a customer's
worldview and desires right thenconnecting with them in a way
(02:31):
that brings more than people expect to those who trust us.
It's about seeking volunteers, not victims.
It's framed as an act of generosity.
That redefinition is so fundamental.
Godin uses this powerful analogy, the compass.
He argues that the true North, the method that works best in
marketing, has completely flipped, totally reversed.
(02:52):
We used to Orient ourselves towards selfish mass, just
pushing out messages to as many people as possible, whether they
wanted to hear them or not. Yeah, just blasting it out
there. Exactly.
Now the compass points toward empathy and service.
This isn't a subtle adjustment. It's a complete 180.
It demands that marketers lead with understanding, with a
genuine desire to solve problemsfor others rather than merely
(03:15):
pushing products. It's about truly being for
someone specific. And the irony is that very
specificity and generosity oftenlead to far greater reach and
impact than those old mass tactics ever could.
And this is where the bar reallyshifts your perspective.
I think it argues that marketingisn't just about selling soap or
cars or whatever. It's about making change happen.
(03:37):
Think about it. When you give a Ted Talk, you're
marketing an idea, aren't you? Yeah, you are.
When you ask your boss for a raise war, marketing your value.
When you raise money for a localplayground, you're marketing a
vision of community, even growing a division at work.
That's a form of marketing. That's a great point.
For a long time, marketing was this term reserved for, you
know, BPS with huge budgets tieddirectly to advertising.
(03:59):
But the book emphatically statesthat now marketing is for you.
Each of us is a marketer whetherwe realize it or not, and we
have this incredible opportunityand frankly, as the book puts
it, the obligation to engage in marketing we're truly proud of.
OK. So what kind of change are we
actually talking about here? Because it's easy to just think
selling stuff. Right.
It's not just transactional changes.
(04:20):
Golden is talking about changingthe culture itself, changing
your world, changing mind, systems, or even demand.
And how do you accomplish this? By skillfully creating and then
relieving tension, by establishing new cultural norms,
or by subtly shifting status roles, it's a profound shift
from merely influencing purchases to actively shaping
(04:43):
human behavior and maybe even societal progress.
The key, as the book highlights,is that you first need to see
these opportunities for change, you know?
And then you must choose to workwith people to help them find
what they're looking for, enabling them to become the
person they dreamed of becoming.And to really drive that point
home, he uses this fantastic metaphor, the how tall is your
sunflower question? He says.
(05:04):
That's what most marketers seem to obsess over, the visible
stuff, right? Brand size, Market share,
Follower counts. Yeah, the vanity metrics
sometimes. Totally.
They're constantly running a hype show, trying to get just a
little bigger taller. But the book reminds us that
tall sunflowers don't just magically appear, they have
deep, complex root systems. Without those.
(05:26):
Roots. They'd never get very high at
all. This book, he emphasizes, is all
about cultivating those roots, anchoring your work deeply in
the dreams, desires, and communities of those you seek to
serve. It's about changing people for
the better and creating work youcan genuinely be proud of.
It's about being a driver of themarket, actually shaping it,
rather than just being market driven and chasing the latest
(05:48):
trend. It really encourages you to
build something that people would actually miss if it were
gone. Something that gives them
meaning, connection possibility.Yeah, something truly valuable.
So this entire approach really hinges on a fundamental
principle. We need to truly see others, not
just project ourselves onto them, Godin stresses.
This core idea, and it's tough one.
(06:10):
People don't believe what you believe.
They don't know what you know. They don't want what you want.
That is a difficult truth to accept, isn't it?
We often assume everyone is justlike us, or maybe that they
should be like. Us.
Exactly. The book introduces the concept
of sonder, that kind of profoundrealization that everyone around
you has an internal life as richand as conflicted as your own,
(06:31):
filled with noise, fears, desires, all that internal
chatter. It's humbling, but essential for
any marketer who truly wants to connect.
Yeah. And this realization implies
that as marketers, we simply cannot insist that others get
with our program or appreciate how much hard work we put in.
It's just like it really is. Instead, it's about dancing with
(06:52):
them, as Gordon puts it, engaging with their reality,
their hopes, their fears. The book provides a powerful
real life example. A nonprofit fundraiser
struggling to raise $1,000,000. She was projecting her own
financial anxieties onto potential donors, thinking who
would ever give that much money?That was her worldview talking.
But true empathy reveals that for the donor, $1,000,000
(07:13):
donation is a bargain because itprovides a wealth of joy,
status, satisfaction, things shewasn't seeing.
Right. The value proposition was
totally different for the donor.Exactly.
Every purchase the book asserts is perceived as a bargain by the
buyer. Otherwise they wouldn't buy it.
Simple as that. And if you're withholding an
opportunity for someone to benefit because you don't
(07:35):
understand their worldview or their perceived bargain, the
author argues, you're actually stealing from them.
Wow, stealing. That's strong.
It is. You're preventing them from
getting the value they seek because you're stuck in your own
perspective. Which leads perfectly into the
next big challenge. The book tackles the assumption
that people are purely rational agents making logical decisions.
(07:56):
He calls this a demonstrably false assertion.
We tend to believe, you know, ifwe just give people enough
facts, enough information, they'll make the right choice.
Our choice, usually. But that's just not how humans
operate, is it? Our brains are wired for
shortcuts, for emotions, for cultural alignment.
We're not spreadsheets. Definitely not.
So what's the counterintuitive bet Godin suggests we should
(08:18):
make instead? OK, get this.
When in doubt, assume that people will act according to
their current irrational urges, ignoring information that runs
counter to their beliefs, trading long term for short term
benefits, and most of all being influenced by the culture they
identify with. Wow, that's a lot to unpack and
a huge shift for traditional marketing.
(08:40):
It really is. The book highlights 2 common
mistakes marketers make. First, assuming customers are
well informed and rational, and second, assuming everyone is
like you, knows what you know wants what you want.
That's a profound blind spot, isn't it?
It prevents genuine connection. Totally, and the illustrative
content the book uses for this is so insightful, like the SUV
(09:03):
example. Oh yeah, tell us about that.
Why do people buy a $90,000 Toyota Land Cruiser if they'll
never drive off road or pay extra for the ludicrous mode on
a Tesla when they don't need to go zero to 60 in under 3
seconds? Or put a $3000 stereo in a car
when they listen to a $30 clock radio at home.
I've wondered about that. Exactly.
It's rarely about the rational features of the utility, it's
(09:26):
about the irrational forces and the feelings driving their
choices. Maybe it's status, or a sense of
belonging, the feeling of power,or just the narrative they want
to tell themselves about who they are.
Right, it's the story, not the specs.
Precisely. The book brilliantly states that
if we're unwilling to let utility drive decisions for a
$50,000 vehicle, what chance does a bottle of perfume or a
(09:47):
stick of gum have? It's not about adding more
features for less money. It's about understanding those
deep human desires and connecting to those, rather than
just the visible functionality. This whole concept is captured
so beautifully by a simple but profound metaphor.
He uses the lock and the key. Yes, the lock and key.
Love that one. Gaiden argues it makes
(10:08):
absolutely no sense to make a key and then run around looking
for a lock to open. That's backwards.
Instead, marketers should find the people to lock first.
Understand their dreams, their desires, their fears, their
worldview. Then, and only then, should you
create an offering the key that is specifically designed to open
their lock. To solve their problem, to fill
their dreams. Yes, it's a complete reversal of
(10:30):
the traditional product first mindset.
Find the need, then build the solution.
And the book uses another great analogy here.
A lifeguard doesn't need to pitch a drowning person on a
life buoy, do they? No, definitely not.
If that person truly understandswhat's at stake, the clear and
present danger, they will instinctively grab it.
(10:53):
The need is obvious to them. The solution becomes equally
obvious to them. It's not about clever persuasion
or slick sales tactics. Not at all.
It's about providing the necessary tool to someone who
desperately needs it and alreadyunderstands the stakes.
It's about seeing their context,not imposing your own.
The key is to make your offeringso clearly the answer to their
(11:13):
expressed need that it feels like a gift, not a sales pitch.
Which? Brings us to that amazing
anecdote from his own experienceselling glasses in rural India.
That really illustrates this point about worldview, doesn't
it? Oh, it's powerful.
So the initial setup seemed logical.
Selling $3 glasses to people making $3 a day?
Affordable needed. They offered eye tests.
(11:35):
A choice of 10 new styles seemedperfect, yet only about 1/3 of
the people who needed glasses actually bought them.
Which is strange, right? It seems like a clear bargain, a
direct solution. Something was off.
Something was profoundly off in their understanding of the local
culture, the local worldview. Right.
And this is where the empathy kicks in and the story changes.
(11:57):
The author changed just one small thing, but it doubled the
percentage of sales. Credible, isn't it?
After the villagers tried on thesample glasses and could see
perfectly, the team simply removed all the other glasses
from the table and they said simply here, your new glasses,
if they work and you like them, please pay us $3.
If you don't want them, please give them back.
That's it, just changing the framing.
(12:18):
That's it. A simple shift in the narrative,
but absolutely revolutionary in that context.
This move the story from Here's an opportunity to shop, which,
for people living in abject poverty, might be perceived as a
threat or a significant risk. Ah, the risk of making a wrong
choice. Exactly to Do you want us to
take away what you have? It leveraged the psychological
(12:41):
principle of loss aversion by first creating a sense of
ownership. OK, that makes sense.
The feeling of potentially losing something is stronger
than the potential gain, especially when resources are
scarce. Precisely, the book explains
that for the fortunate, shoppingis often a pleasure, a low risk
activity. But for those in poverty, being
wrong about a purchase could cost dinner or a medical
(13:03):
checkup. Shopping for something new is a
significant threat. So the author realized his own
narrative about how to buy glasses wasn't inherently
superior. It was just his narrative and if
it wasn't working, he was arrogant to insist on it.
The key take away is we need to care enough about those we serve
to imagine the story they need to hear and be generous enough
to share it in a way that allowsthem to take action they'll be
(13:26):
proud of, rooted in their existing worldview, not ours.
OK, so this brings us to a really crucial question then.
Who do you target if you're trying to understand worldview
so deeply? The book makes a bold,
counterintuitive statement rightout of the gate.
The relentless pursuit of mass will make you boring.
That really flies in the face oftraditional marketing, doesn't
(13:47):
it? Go big or go home.
Totally. The playbook always tells us to
go big, reach everyone, cast thewidest possible net.
But Guten argues that mass marketing inevitably leads to
average products, constant compromises and just bland
generalizations. You try to offend no one and
satisfy everyone. And in doing so, you lose your
edge, your passion, your very soul.
(14:07):
It becomes forgettable, just another undifferentiated product
in a sea of sameness. So if not mass, then what?
What's the alternative he proposes?
Instead of mass, Godin advocatesstarting with the smallest
viable market. Smallest viable market?
This is the minimum number of people you would need to
influence to make it worth your effort.
It's about being incredibly specific, laser focused.
(14:29):
And he emphasizes that specificity is actually a form
of bravery because it makes you accountable.
Exactly. It worked or it didn't.
It matched or it didn't. It spread or didn't know hiding
in the averages. The book stresses, isn't for
everyone. It's explicitly for those who
signed up for the journey. And this intense focus,
(14:50):
ironically, often leads to far greater growth and impact than
trying to please the anonymous masses.
It creates A devoted tribe. There's a really fun analogy the
book uses here too, isn't there?Bit provocative.
Oh yeah, shun the non believers.It's this powerful encouragement
to resist the urge to send off the edges of your product or
message. You know, to try and fit in when
(15:11):
you face rejection from the broader masses.
Because let's face it, when you aim for everyone, the chorus of
no can be deafening. So instead of diluting your
message. Stay laser focused on that
small, viable audience you originally set out to serve, the
ones who will truly understand you and fall in love with where
you hope to take them. That's where the real power
lies. OK, so this essential question
(15:33):
who's it for? Sounds simple, but has this
subtle magical power, the book points out.
It enables marketers to fundamentally shift their
product, their story, Even wherethey tell that story.
It forces a clarity that's oftenmissing.
And central to this is understanding the distinction
between demographics and psychographics.
Can you break that down? Sure.
(15:53):
Demographics are the external characteristics, age, gender,
income, location. Easy to measure but often not
that insightful. Psychographics delve into the
internal world, what people dream of, what they believe,
what they want, their values, their desires.
This is where the real insight for marketing lies.
That makes sense. It's the why behind The Who.
(16:14):
Exactly. And Godin deepens this by
introducing cognitive linguist George Lakoff's concept of
worldviews. A worldview, the book explains,
is like a shortcut, the lens each of us uses when we see the
world. It encompasses our deeply held
assumptions, our biases, even our stereotypes.
And marketers need to understandthese internal narratives.
(16:35):
Because people make decisions based on their worldview, not
yours. Always.
The book highlights the danger of assuming others share your
worldview with that JC Penney example, right, Ron Johnson.
Oh yeah, that's a classic cautionary tale coming from
Apple. Johnson tried to transform JC
Penney based on his worldview ofelegant low discount retail
(16:57):
sleek Apple like. But that wasn't the JC Penney
customers worldview at all. Not even close.
He abandoned the stores. True fans who, as the book says,
love this board of bargain hunting.
Their worldview was fundamentally different.
And sales plummeted. By over 50%.
Yeah. Because he didn't respect their
narrative. He tried to impose his own.
Wow. That's why the book encourages
typecasting or creating personaslike Bargain Bill or Careful
(17:19):
Carla. Exactly, each with their own
unique problem, desire and internal narrative that you
absolutely must speak to if you want to connect.
Let's look at a classic illustration of this focused
approach, Starbucks versus Dunkin' Donuts.
Great example. Both sell coffee right on the
surface, direct competitors. But as the book brilliantly
(17:41):
explains, Starbucks didn't try to compete directly with Dunkin
for their existing grab and Go customers.
They didn't try to be cheaper orfaster for that specific crowd.
No, instead they obsessed over serving a very precise group of
people. People with specific beliefs
about coffee, time, money, community, opportunity and
(18:01):
luxury. They weren't just selling a
drink. They were selling an experience,
a third place between home and work, a daily ritual that
elevated the everyday, somethingcompletely different from
Duncan's offering. This case study really shows how
being deeply specific about who it's for can build an enduring,
impactful brand. Totally.
Starbucks built a brand for the ages by committing to a defined
(18:22):
audience and their worldview. They let those who weren't a fit
simply go to no hard feelings. It's not about trying to be for
everyone. It's about being everything to
someone. The book emphasizes that your
goal should be to find people who will not only understand
you, but will also fall in love with where you hope to take
them. Making your movement part of
their identity. Exactly.
(18:43):
And that kind of love, Godin says, leads to traction,
engagement and evangelism. They want to spread the word
because it reinforces their identity and their worldview.
Which leads to this really radical but incredibly
empowering idea. The book champions the freedom
to say it's not for you. At first glance, that sounds
(19:04):
kind of rude, doesn't it? Exclusive maybe?
It does. But Godin argues that this
statement actually shows immenserespect.
You're not wasting their time, you're not pandering, you're not
trying to force them to change their beliefs.
Instead you're explicitly stating, look, I made this for
you. The Bush New gets this not for
the other folks, but for you. It's an act of clarity and
honesty, and it builds trust with your true audience.
(19:26):
So why is this so liberating forthe marketer?
For the creator. Because it frees you from the
tyranny of critics, the people who just don't get the joke or
aren't part of your intended audience anyway.
Right, you stop chasing universal approval, which is
impossible anyway. Exactly.
It gives you the privilege of polishing your story
specifically for those who trulyneed and want to hear it.
(19:47):
The book highlights that every best selling book on Amazon,
every major hit, has at least a few one star reviews.
It's truly impossible to create work that both matters and
pleases everyone. He tells that great story about
the comedian bombing in New Yorkbecause the audience was an
Italian tour group who didn't understand English.
(20:07):
The work wasn't bad. It just wasn't for them.
And when people don't choose you, the book urges us to
understand that they are correctin their decision to not choose
you because. Their decision decision is
rational based on their worldview and what they perceive
as valuable, not yours. That shift in mindset releases
so much pressure doesn't. It it really does OK.
So beyond finding your specific audience, Godin pushes us to
(20:30):
recognize the fundamental, oftenoverlooked purpose of marketing.
Making change happen. He says marketers are in the
business of changing people fromone emotional state to another,
taking them on a journey to become the person they've
dreamed of becoming. It's not just about selling a
product, it's about facilitatingA profound transformation.
(20:51):
Yeah, this point truly reframes the entire purpose of marketing.
Godin draws a crucial distinction between what people
make and what people want. People don't actually want what
you make, they want what it willdo for them and crucially, how
it will make them feel. He builds on Theodore Levitt's
famous line about the quarter inch drill bit.
Yeah. People don't want the drill bit,
that's the feature. They want the quarter inch hole.
(21:12):
That's the outcome. But Godin takes it even further.
He says people want to feel safeand respected when they have
that hole or may be capable or proud.
The drill bit is just a means toan emotional end.
So marketers are fundamentally in the business of delivering
key emotions, belonging, connection, Peace of Mind,
status. Exactly.
(21:33):
The product or service is merelya road to achieve those
emotions, which leads directly to the two guiding questions
Godin says every marketer needs to ask.
Who's it for? What's it for?
And the What's It For isn't about features, it's about
transformation and emotion. OK, so this idea of making
change is tightly linked to another key concept, creating
(21:53):
tension. Right.
And it it's important to clarifythis isn't about coercion or
manipulation or fear mongering. That's the old, unethical way.
No, it's about a respectful pushtowards a better state, a
forward motion that helps peoplecross a threshold they might
otherwise avoid. So how is this tension different
from fear? The book is very clear on this.
(22:15):
Fear is a dream killer. It paralyzes people, leaves them
stuck, right? But tension, as marketers can
generously create it provides the promise that we can get
through that fear to the other side.
It's about possibility. Tension is defined as the force
on a stretched rubber band, right?
A jolt that disrupts the status quo.
Exactly. The book differentiates between
(22:35):
a pattern match, which is business as usual, the easy safe
choice, and a pattern interrupt,which requires tension and a
willingness to take a risk. Is why the author notes it's
often so profitable to market topeople already in transition.
Yeah, like new dads, engaged women, recent movers.
They don't have a pattern to match, so it's all an interrupt.
They're already in a state of flux, open to new solutions if
(22:58):
the tension is framed correctly as helping them navigate that
change. Slack's rapid growth is
presented as a master class in this Isn't it?
Tension and pattern interruption.
Absolutely. Think about it.
Very few people actually want tolearn new software or
fundamentally change their work habits.
There's a natural human resistance to disruption.
Inertia is powerful. Yet Slack became one of the
(23:21):
fastest growing productivity products ever.
Multibillion dollar valuation inrecord time.
How did they do that? Well, Slack initially appealed
to a Godin calls neophiliacs, those early adopters who like
new software. Always looking for new ways to
work, they seek out the new. But the true genius was.
Giving them a tool to create a pattern interrupt for others in
(23:41):
their organization. The tension wasn't forced by a
salesperson or an ad. It was created by peers.
Exactly, a colleague simply says, hey, you're missing out.
We're discussing this important project in Slack.
The fear of missing out. FOMO.
Precisely. If you're not on Slack, you
quickly realize colleagues are talking about work without you,
making decisions without you, excluding you.
(24:02):
That tension is powerful. And it's released simply by
signing in. Yep.
Sign in. Join the conversation.
Tension gone. This single horizontal
transmission, peer-to-peer, built a massive company not
through traditional ads, but butdesigning in the incentive for
users to spread it because it improved their work life and
removed their social tension. Brilliant.
OK, let's shift gears slightly to another huge underlying
(24:25):
theme, the powerful, often unseen drivers of human
behavior, particularly status. Oh yeah, status is huge in the
book. It's not just about money or
power in the obvious sense, is it?
Not at all. He points out that if seemingly
irrational decisions are examined closely, you'll likely
see status roles at work. People spend an enormous amount
(24:46):
of time paying attention to status, consciously or not, he
states. It drives almost everything we
do. It's this underlying current in
nearly every human interaction. And this immediately brings to
mind Keith Johnstone's work on status roles from his book
Improv, the idea of the alpha dog and the runt determining who
eats first. In human culture, these roles
(25:07):
are everywhere, though often unspoken.
The book uses the opening scene of The Godfather as a prime
example, doesn't it? It does.
It vividly shows the stark contrast between the low status
Undertaker bonus era practicallybegging and the high status Don
Corleone effortlessly exerting power.
In just a few seconds, their relative status is crystal clear
(25:30):
and it dictates the whole interaction.
Exactly. Status, the book emphasizes, is
always in the eyes of the beholder.
It has inertia. People fight fiercely to
maintain it. It's learned and profoundly.
Shame is the status killer. Marketing that shames people or
lowers their perceived status isalmost always doomed to fail.
You have to respect their position or offer a way to
(25:50):
enhance it. Which ties into that simple but
incredibly powerful phrase. People like us do things like
this. That's a cornerstone of the
book, isn't it? It encapsulates how cultural
change actually happens. Our actions, Godin argues, are
primarily driven by this unconscious question.
What do people like me do in a situation like this?
Even when we adopt outlier behavior, like joining a fringe
(26:12):
movement or wearing something unusual.
We're still aligning ourselves with a tribe of outliers, people
like us who also do things like this.
It's about belonging and identity.
So how can marketers effectivelyleverage this dynamic?
By normalizing new behaviors within a specific culture, not
the universal culture that's toobig to diffuse.
(26:33):
Right, you can't change everyone.
No, but you can change a culture, a little pocket of the
world you specifically seek to serve.
And focusing on the smallest viable market maximizes your
chances of changing that specific culture.
Exactly because that core group,once they're enriched and
connected by the change you seekto make, will organically share
the word with the next layer andso on.
(26:55):
It creates this ripple effect ofvirtuous cycle adoption.
The Blue Ribbons Initiative is such a powerful real world
example of people like us in action.
Can you remind us of that story?Yeah, it's great.
The problem was pressing. A local school budget failed due
to rising taxes, threatening really draconian cuts if a
second vote also failed. The community was divided.
(27:17):
So not a marketing campaign in the traditional?
Sense. Not at all.
The solution was ingenious and entirely cultural.
A few activists tied 100 simple blue ribbons to a prominent tree
in the center of town. Just ribbons.
Just blue ribbons. Within days, thousands of blue
ribbons appeared on trees all across town, tied by dozens and
dozens of families. The message was simple, visible,
(27:40):
yet profound. People like us, people in our
town, people in this blue ribbondistrict support our schools.
And the budget passed. Passed 2 to one.
It wasn't a victory won by rational argument or data
points. It was a simple, visible act
that normalized the behavior andshifted the internal narrative
of the entire community. It showed residents visually
what people like us. We're doing powerful social
(28:02):
proof. The book is other examples too,
right? Like buying an expensive baby
stroller because you see yourself as smart.
Or shopping at the farmers market, because that's how we
see our people behaving. It's all about fitting in with
who you perceive your people to be, reinforcing that internal
narrative. OK.
So within this realm of status, Godin presents 2 fundamental
drives that marketers need to understand, affiliation and
(28:25):
dominion. Right, two very different ways
people seek and experience status.
Understanding which one drives your specific audience is
crucial. Can you define this for us?
Sure. Affiliation is characterized by
questions like who knows you? Who trusts you?
Where do you stand within the tribe?
Can't we all get along? Status here comes from
community, respect, being connected, being part of the
(28:48):
family. Like fashion trends, signaling
group membership. Exactly.
Modern urban Internet societies are often built on affiliation.
Dominion, on the other hand, is characterized by statements like
this is mine, not yours, Who hasmore power?
I did this myself. Status comes from control,
winning, beating the opposition.OK, two distinct drives, but the
key insight is. The crucial insight Godin offers
(29:11):
is that the way you personally see the world, whether you are
driven by dominion or affiliation, is far less
important than the worldview of those you seek to serve.
Their worldview is always stronger than the story you
choose to tell. Always.
You absolutely have to meet themwhere they are.
Speak to their drive for status.The book brings this to life
with that incredible case study about Doctor Leela Hazah and the
(29:34):
Maasai warriors reducing lion killing.
Oh, that's such a powerful story.
Traditionally, killing a lion was a deeply ingrained rite of
passage for young Masai men, A clear act of dominion, bravery,
establishing status within theirculture.
And rational arguments about conservation just weren't
working. Not.
Making a dent in those deeply held cultural beliefs and status
(29:55):
rituals, Dr. Azaz succeeded not by arguing, but by changing the
cultural ritual itself. Instead of demonstrating bravery
by killing a lion, the traditional act of dominion, the
new rite of passage, became saving lions, finding them,
naming them, tracking them. This became an active
affiliation within the community.
So it's shifted the status dynamic entirely.
(30:16):
Profoundly, the book uses this to illustrate that the true
underlying goals of the Maasai tradition were things like
community binding, empowerment, a rite of passage, none of which
were directly tied to the act oflion killing itself.
That was just a historical artifact, a method.
By understanding their worldviewand connecting to those
(30:36):
underlying desires for status and belonging.
She transformed A destructive act of dominion into a communal
act of affiliation, saving the lions in the process.
It's a brilliant example of how marketing, at its core, is about
understanding human drives and offering new, better pathways to
fulfill them. OK, so moving from understanding
The Who and why to the how, the book brings us to the really
(30:59):
crucial concept of permission marketing.
Yes, this is a big one, defined by Godin way back in his earlier
book. It's the privilege of delivering
anticipated, personal and relevant messages to people who
want to get them. The absolute opposite of spam.
Exactly. Spam is stolen, unwanted
attention. Permission is earned trust.
So why is owning a permission asset so critical today,
(31:20):
according to the book? Because platforms like Facebook,
where you're essentially a bear cropper on someone else's land,
can change the rules at any time, suddenly making it harder
or more expensive to reach the audience you thought you had.
Right, you don't own that connection.
You need the privilege of contacting people directly
without a middleman. The book clarifies that
(31:42):
permission doesn't always have to be formal, like signed
contract, but it must be obvious.
Like your friend can call to borrow money, but a random
contact can't just e-mail their resume.
Precisely. Subscriptions, however, are
overt acts of permission. The marketer's promise is clear.
I will do XY and ZI hope you will give me permission by
(32:02):
listening. And then, crucially.
You must stick to that promise, which requires immense humility
and patience. It's a long term game building
that trust. And the real life examples of
this are everywhere, aren't they?
Podcasters like us, hopefully. Hopefully when you subscribe to
a show, you're giving explicit permission for new episodes to
show up. Successful politicians build
permission assets through e-maillists or rallies.
(32:25):
Authors cultivate followings through newsletters.
The book emphasizes that this permission asset is far more
valuable than physical office equipment.
If someone walked out with your laptop, you'd fire them, right?
Absolutely. But many marketers squander
their permission assets daily byspamming, boosting metrics for
short term gain or breaking promises.
They don't realize they're destroying something truly
(32:46):
priceless. That Direct Line to people who
trust them. OK, so once you have permission,
how do you ensure your message actually spreads and gains
traction? This brings us to remarkability.
Yes, the famous purple cow. The goal here is to
intentionally create a product or service that people decide is
worth talking about. It's not about being merely good
(33:09):
or average. It's about being so different,
so outstanding, that it stands out.
Like a purple cow in a field of ordinary brown ones, you can't
help but notice it and talk about it.
And it's crucial to remember that whether something is
remarkable isn't up to the creator.
I know it's entirely up to the user.
If they remark on it, then it's remarkable.
Remarkable. That's how the word spreads
organically. The book explains why people
(33:30):
talk. It benefits them.
They're thinking, consciously ornot.
Look at how good my taste is, orlook at how good I am at
spotting important ideas. It reinforces their own status
or identity. This is profoundly different
from marketers resorting to selfish stunts, which are often
just offensive or attention grabbing without providing real
(33:50):
value. Godin also provides that
fascinating analogy from Fight Club.
The rule not to talk about FightClub.
Actually became an invitation totalk about it for the right
worldview. It signaled a shared secret and
inside track. Similarly, Alcoholics Anonymous
thrives because talking about itis seen as a generous act by its
members. It serves their purpose, not
(34:10):
just the organization's. True remarkability empowers the
user to spread the word because it benefits them.
OK. Finally, how do you bridge the
gap? How do you go from that initial
remarkable product or service embraced by those early adopters
to wider adoption? This is where the chasm comes
in. Right Golden highlights Jeff
Moore's concept of the chasm andthe Rogers curve of idea
(34:31):
diffusion. There's a fundamental difference
in mindset. Early adopters, the neophiliacs.
They love new and risky things. They get a thrill from
discovery. But the mass market, the vast
majority of people, they want safe, proven pattern matches.
They're not looking to break things or learn something new.
They want things to just work reliably.
(34:52):
Which is why few innovations simply glide across this gap
smoothly. There's a disconnect.
Exactly. The bridge across this chasm,
the book argues, lies in networkeffects.
Network effects explain that. Ideas or products that work
better when everyone uses them. This gives early adopters a huge
incentive to spread the word because it actually makes their
(35:14):
own lives better. Like Snapchat or Instagram,
users tell friends to join, not because the company asked.
But because if your friends followed you, your life would
improve. Your experience gets better with
each new user you bring in. That's the simple ratchet power
of network effects. So the bridge across the chasm
is built on 2 simple questions for the user.
Yes. What will I tell my friends and
(35:35):
why will I tell them? The why usually involves making
the offering better in a way that creates that network effect
for them. The book provides that
incredible case study for crossing the biggest chasm.
Facebook. How did that work?
It started hyper focused at Harvard right?
Not with a grand vision of connecting the world initially.
No, it was fulfilling an urgent status need for insecure Harvard
(35:59):
students finding their pecking order.
Who knows who, who's dating who,who's hot or not pay sick human
stuff. As it spread through the Ivy
League, it crossed one local TASM after another, driven by
that relentless ratchet of status.
The more friends you had on Facebook, the higher your
status, the more connected you were.
And then the leap to the generalpublic.
(36:19):
Enabled by combining that nerdiness with status, creating
an irresistible ratchet join or face social isolation.
That was the powerful tension that pushed it across the chasm
for the masses. But this isn't just for tech
companies, right? The book gives a non tech
example too. Absolutely the clean water in a
local village. Example using Water Health
International WHI. How did they cross the chasm
(36:41):
locally? Early doctors eager for new
solutions receive these bright colored water jugs.
They became a visible badge of honor, a status symbol whi then
used things like microscope projectors in schools to show
students and their parents the germs in The Dirty water made
the invisible visible. Creating awareness and maybe a
(37:01):
bit of tension there too. Exactly when children started
talking about neighbors having clean water and village leaders
were seen using the distinctive cherry cans, status kicked in.
People like us use clean water. Precisely.
This created a ratchet based on people in proximity, making
those without clean water feel socially isolated, or maybe just
behind the curve. The emotional shift, driven by
(37:24):
status and social norms, was thekey to crossing that local
chasm, improving health and changing a culture.
Wow. So we've really taken a deep
dive into Seth Godin's This is Marketing.
Today, we've uncovered how marketing is truly about making
meaningful change. It starts with that profound
empathy for your specific audience, leading you to focus
on the smallest viable market. From there, it's about
(37:46):
respectfully creating beneficialtension, leveraging those
unseen, powerful status dynamics.
And finally, building genuine permission and remarkability so
your ideas can actually spread and make a difference.
The book really reminds us that marketing, like any powerful
tool, gets its immense impact from the Craftsman, not the tool
itself. Its reach and speed today are
(38:07):
just unprecedented, yeah. With less money than ever
before, you can potentially havemore impact than anyone could
have imagined even 10 years ago.It's incredible.
We've explored how marketing, when done right at its best, is
a generous act, a powerful tool for good.
It's about building something that people would actually miss
if it were gone, something that resonates deeply with their
(38:29):
desires and transforms their lives for the better, even in
small ways. And this leads us right to
Govins final, really provocativethought.
It's a direct challenge to you, the listener.
He asks what are you going to dowith that impact?
He argues, quite forcefully, that if your work offers more
value than it's cost, whether it's a product, a service, an
idea, and you hesitate to marketit properly, you're stealing.
(38:53):
Stealing again? That's bold.
It is. You're holding back from someone
who genuinely needs to learn from you, engage with you, or
buy from you. You're denying them that value
because of your own hesitation. Your greatest contribution then,
is your willingness to see and be seen, to market yourself,
your ideas on the difference youare truly capable of making.
(39:14):
And the marketing we do for ourselves, those stories we tell
ourselves about what we're capable of, what's possible,
that can truly change everything.
So the question hangs there, what will you build next?
Have you ever found yourself picturing marketing as this,
well, this loud, slightly embarrassing hustle?
Maybe it's that infomercial shouting from a late night TV
screen, you know, Or those endless spam emails just
clogging up your inbox. Or even that awkward salesperson
who just won't take no for an answer.
For a long time, it's felt like this necessary evil, Maybe a bit
(00:20):
of a shameful art, right? Well, today we're diving head
first into Seth Godin's remarkable book, This Is
Marketing. And let me tell you, this isn't
just another business book. It's really a radical
redefinition of what marketing truly is, a profound paradigm
shift. Actually.
Our mission today is to unpack Godin's core arguments.
We're going to peel back the layers and reveal how marketing
(00:42):
has sort of transformed how it'smoved from being a pushy, often
kind of despised sales tactic into, well, a powerful force for
genuine connection, deep empathy, and even meaningful
societal change. It's really about understanding
the desires and dreams of those you seek to serve.
It's about cultivating those deep, unseen root systems, you
know, not just admiring the visible height of a sunflower.
(01:03):
And honestly, once you hear Godin's perspective, it's kind
of hard to see marketing any other way.
Absolutely. And Godin doesn't waste anytime,
does he? Right from the beginning of the
book, he challenges our our outdated notions of marketing.
Yeah, for so long, marketing really did feel like A1 sided
shouting match. You see it in the books,
critique of what he calls selfish mass tactics.
(01:25):
Think of those old TV ads, you know, just blasting their
message indiscriminately to millions, or the Top 40 radio
hits that were supposed to define our collective taste.
But the author states unequivocally that this approach
doesn't work anymore. It's an advertising trap, as he
puts it, a trap that actually stopped us from building truly
useful, resonant stories with people for most of our
(01:46):
lifetimes. Marketing was advertising, and
the book makes it abundantly clear that now, well, it simply
isn't. The very question, how do I get
the word out is now precisely the wrong question to ask.
It's just not about volume anymore.
Not at all. It's about resonance and
connection. And he absolutely doesn't pull
any punches when he talks about shameless marketers, does he?
The ones who spam, trick and coerce people into buying
(02:08):
something. He points out that this kind of
behavior has unfortunately made many ethical marketers feel a
real sense of shame about their profession, made them almost
hide their best, most generous work.
But the book helps us rethink this, offering a profoundly
different definition. It says effective marketing is
fundamentally about understanding a customer's
worldview and desires right thenconnecting with them in a way
(02:31):
that brings more than people expect to those who trust us.
It's about seeking volunteers, not victims.
It's framed as an act of generosity.
That redefinition is so fundamental.
Godin uses this powerful analogy, the compass.
He argues that the true North, the method that works best in
marketing, has completely flipped, totally reversed.
(02:52):
We used to Orient ourselves towards selfish mass, just
pushing out messages to as many people as possible, whether they
wanted to hear them or not. Yeah, just blasting it out
there. Exactly.
Now the compass points toward empathy and service.
This isn't a subtle adjustment. It's a complete 180.
It demands that marketers lead with understanding, with a
genuine desire to solve problemsfor others rather than merely
(03:15):
pushing products. It's about truly being for
someone specific. And the irony is that very
specificity and generosity oftenlead to far greater reach and
impact than those old mass tactics ever could.
And this is where the bar reallyshifts your perspective.
I think it argues that marketingisn't just about selling soap or
cars or whatever. It's about making change happen.
(03:37):
Think about it. When you give a Ted Talk, you're
marketing an idea, aren't you? Yeah, you are.
When you ask your boss for a raise war, marketing your value.
When you raise money for a localplayground, you're marketing a
vision of community, even growing a division at work.
That's a form of marketing. That's a great point.
For a long time, marketing was this term reserved for, you
know, BPS with huge budgets tieddirectly to advertising.
(03:59):
But the book emphatically statesthat now marketing is for you.
Each of us is a marketer whetherwe realize it or not, and we
have this incredible opportunityand frankly, as the book puts
it, the obligation to engage in marketing we're truly proud of.
OK. So what kind of change are we
actually talking about here? Because it's easy to just think
selling stuff. Right.
It's not just transactional changes.
(04:20):
Golden is talking about changingthe culture itself, changing
your world, changing mind, systems, or even demand.
And how do you accomplish this? By skillfully creating and then
relieving tension, by establishing new cultural norms,
or by subtly shifting status roles, it's a profound shift
from merely influencing purchases to actively shaping
(04:43):
human behavior and maybe even societal progress.
The key, as the book highlights,is that you first need to see
these opportunities for change, you know?
And then you must choose to workwith people to help them find
what they're looking for, enabling them to become the
person they dreamed of becoming.And to really drive that point
home, he uses this fantastic metaphor, the how tall is your
sunflower question? He says.
(05:04):
That's what most marketers seem to obsess over, the visible
stuff, right? Brand size, Market share,
Follower counts. Yeah, the vanity metrics
sometimes. Totally.
They're constantly running a hype show, trying to get just a
little bigger taller. But the book reminds us that
tall sunflowers don't just magically appear, they have
deep, complex root systems. Without those.
(05:26):
Roots. They'd never get very high at
all. This book, he emphasizes, is all
about cultivating those roots, anchoring your work deeply in
the dreams, desires, and communities of those you seek to
serve. It's about changing people for
the better and creating work youcan genuinely be proud of.
It's about being a driver of themarket, actually shaping it,
rather than just being market driven and chasing the latest
(05:48):
trend. It really encourages you to
build something that people would actually miss if it were
gone. Something that gives them
meaning, connection possibility.Yeah, something truly valuable.
So this entire approach really hinges on a fundamental
principle. We need to truly see others, not
just project ourselves onto them, Godin stresses.
This core idea, and it's tough one.
(06:10):
People don't believe what you believe.
They don't know what you know. They don't want what you want.
That is a difficult truth to accept, isn't it?
We often assume everyone is justlike us, or maybe that they
should be like. Us.
Exactly. The book introduces the concept
of sonder, that kind of profoundrealization that everyone around
you has an internal life as richand as conflicted as your own,
(06:31):
filled with noise, fears, desires, all that internal
chatter. It's humbling, but essential for
any marketer who truly wants to connect.
Yeah. And this realization implies
that as marketers, we simply cannot insist that others get
with our program or appreciate how much hard work we put in.
It's just like it really is. Instead, it's about dancing with
(06:52):
them, as Gordon puts it, engaging with their reality,
their hopes, their fears. The book provides a powerful
real life example. A nonprofit fundraiser
struggling to raise $1,000,000. She was projecting her own
financial anxieties onto potential donors, thinking who
would ever give that much money?That was her worldview talking.
But true empathy reveals that for the donor, $1,000,000
(07:13):
donation is a bargain because itprovides a wealth of joy,
status, satisfaction, things shewasn't seeing.
Right. The value proposition was
totally different for the donor.Exactly.
Every purchase the book asserts is perceived as a bargain by the
buyer. Otherwise they wouldn't buy it.
Simple as that. And if you're withholding an
opportunity for someone to benefit because you don't
(07:35):
understand their worldview or their perceived bargain, the
author argues, you're actually stealing from them.
Wow, stealing. That's strong.
It is. You're preventing them from
getting the value they seek because you're stuck in your own
perspective. Which leads perfectly into the
next big challenge. The book tackles the assumption
that people are purely rational agents making logical decisions.
(07:56):
He calls this a demonstrably false assertion.
We tend to believe, you know, ifwe just give people enough
facts, enough information, they'll make the right choice.
Our choice, usually. But that's just not how humans
operate, is it? Our brains are wired for
shortcuts, for emotions, for cultural alignment.
We're not spreadsheets. Definitely not.
So what's the counterintuitive bet Godin suggests we should
(08:18):
make instead? OK, get this.
When in doubt, assume that people will act according to
their current irrational urges, ignoring information that runs
counter to their beliefs, trading long term for short term
benefits, and most of all being influenced by the culture they
identify with. Wow, that's a lot to unpack and
a huge shift for traditional marketing.
(08:40):
It really is. The book highlights 2 common
mistakes marketers make. First, assuming customers are
well informed and rational, and second, assuming everyone is
like you, knows what you know wants what you want.
That's a profound blind spot, isn't it?
It prevents genuine connection. Totally, and the illustrative
content the book uses for this is so insightful, like the SUV
(09:03):
example. Oh yeah, tell us about that.
Why do people buy a $90,000 Toyota Land Cruiser if they'll
never drive off road or pay extra for the ludicrous mode on
a Tesla when they don't need to go zero to 60 in under 3
seconds? Or put a $3000 stereo in a car
when they listen to a $30 clock radio at home.
I've wondered about that. Exactly.
It's rarely about the rational features of the utility, it's
(09:26):
about the irrational forces and the feelings driving their
choices. Maybe it's status, or a sense of
belonging, the feeling of power,or just the narrative they want
to tell themselves about who they are.
Right, it's the story, not the specs.
Precisely. The book brilliantly states that
if we're unwilling to let utility drive decisions for a
$50,000 vehicle, what chance does a bottle of perfume or a
(09:47):
stick of gum have? It's not about adding more
features for less money. It's about understanding those
deep human desires and connecting to those, rather than
just the visible functionality. This whole concept is captured
so beautifully by a simple but profound metaphor.
He uses the lock and the key. Yes, the lock and key.
Love that one. Gaiden argues it makes
(10:08):
absolutely no sense to make a key and then run around looking
for a lock to open. That's backwards.
Instead, marketers should find the people to lock first.
Understand their dreams, their desires, their fears, their
worldview. Then, and only then, should you
create an offering the key that is specifically designed to open
their lock. To solve their problem, to fill
their dreams. Yes, it's a complete reversal of
(10:30):
the traditional product first mindset.
Find the need, then build the solution.
And the book uses another great analogy here.
A lifeguard doesn't need to pitch a drowning person on a
life buoy, do they? No, definitely not.
If that person truly understandswhat's at stake, the clear and
present danger, they will instinctively grab it.
(10:53):
The need is obvious to them. The solution becomes equally
obvious to them. It's not about clever persuasion
or slick sales tactics. Not at all.
It's about providing the necessary tool to someone who
desperately needs it and alreadyunderstands the stakes.
It's about seeing their context,not imposing your own.
The key is to make your offeringso clearly the answer to their
(11:13):
expressed need that it feels like a gift, not a sales pitch.
Which? Brings us to that amazing
anecdote from his own experienceselling glasses in rural India.
That really illustrates this point about worldview, doesn't
it? Oh, it's powerful.
So the initial setup seemed logical.
Selling $3 glasses to people making $3 a day?
Affordable needed. They offered eye tests.
(11:35):
A choice of 10 new styles seemedperfect, yet only about 1/3 of
the people who needed glasses actually bought them.
Which is strange, right? It seems like a clear bargain, a
direct solution. Something was off.
Something was profoundly off in their understanding of the local
culture, the local worldview. Right.
And this is where the empathy kicks in and the story changes.
(11:57):
The author changed just one small thing, but it doubled the
percentage of sales. Credible, isn't it?
After the villagers tried on thesample glasses and could see
perfectly, the team simply removed all the other glasses
from the table and they said simply here, your new glasses,
if they work and you like them, please pay us $3.
If you don't want them, please give them back.
That's it, just changing the framing.
(12:18):
That's it. A simple shift in the narrative,
but absolutely revolutionary in that context.
This move the story from Here's an opportunity to shop, which,
for people living in abject poverty, might be perceived as a
threat or a significant risk. Ah, the risk of making a wrong
choice. Exactly to Do you want us to
take away what you have? It leveraged the psychological
(12:41):
principle of loss aversion by first creating a sense of
ownership. OK, that makes sense.
The feeling of potentially losing something is stronger
than the potential gain, especially when resources are
scarce. Precisely, the book explains
that for the fortunate, shoppingis often a pleasure, a low risk
activity. But for those in poverty, being
wrong about a purchase could cost dinner or a medical
(13:03):
checkup. Shopping for something new is a
significant threat. So the author realized his own
narrative about how to buy glasses wasn't inherently
superior. It was just his narrative and if
it wasn't working, he was arrogant to insist on it.
The key take away is we need to care enough about those we serve
to imagine the story they need to hear and be generous enough
to share it in a way that allowsthem to take action they'll be
(13:26):
proud of, rooted in their existing worldview, not ours.
OK, so this brings us to a really crucial question then.
Who do you target if you're trying to understand worldview
so deeply? The book makes a bold,
counterintuitive statement rightout of the gate.
The relentless pursuit of mass will make you boring.
That really flies in the face oftraditional marketing, doesn't
(13:47):
it? Go big or go home.
Totally. The playbook always tells us to
go big, reach everyone, cast thewidest possible net.
But Guten argues that mass marketing inevitably leads to
average products, constant compromises and just bland
generalizations. You try to offend no one and
satisfy everyone. And in doing so, you lose your
edge, your passion, your very soul.
(14:07):
It becomes forgettable, just another undifferentiated product
in a sea of sameness. So if not mass, then what?
What's the alternative he proposes?
Instead of mass, Godin advocatesstarting with the smallest
viable market. Smallest viable market?
This is the minimum number of people you would need to
influence to make it worth your effort.
It's about being incredibly specific, laser focused.
(14:29):
And he emphasizes that specificity is actually a form
of bravery because it makes you accountable.
Exactly. It worked or it didn't.
It matched or it didn't. It spread or didn't know hiding
in the averages. The book stresses, isn't for
everyone. It's explicitly for those who
signed up for the journey. And this intense focus,
(14:50):
ironically, often leads to far greater growth and impact than
trying to please the anonymous masses.
It creates A devoted tribe. There's a really fun analogy the
book uses here too, isn't there?Bit provocative.
Oh yeah, shun the non believers.It's this powerful encouragement
to resist the urge to send off the edges of your product or
message. You know, to try and fit in when
(15:11):
you face rejection from the broader masses.
Because let's face it, when you aim for everyone, the chorus of
no can be deafening. So instead of diluting your
message. Stay laser focused on that
small, viable audience you originally set out to serve, the
ones who will truly understand you and fall in love with where
you hope to take them. That's where the real power
lies. OK, so this essential question
(15:33):
who's it for? Sounds simple, but has this
subtle magical power, the book points out.
It enables marketers to fundamentally shift their
product, their story, Even wherethey tell that story.
It forces a clarity that's oftenmissing.
And central to this is understanding the distinction
between demographics and psychographics.
Can you break that down? Sure.
(15:53):
Demographics are the external characteristics, age, gender,
income, location. Easy to measure but often not
that insightful. Psychographics delve into the
internal world, what people dream of, what they believe,
what they want, their values, their desires.
This is where the real insight for marketing lies.
That makes sense. It's the why behind The Who.
(16:14):
Exactly. And Godin deepens this by
introducing cognitive linguist George Lakoff's concept of
worldviews. A worldview, the book explains,
is like a shortcut, the lens each of us uses when we see the
world. It encompasses our deeply held
assumptions, our biases, even our stereotypes.
And marketers need to understandthese internal narratives.
(16:35):
Because people make decisions based on their worldview, not
yours. Always.
The book highlights the danger of assuming others share your
worldview with that JC Penney example, right, Ron Johnson.
Oh yeah, that's a classic cautionary tale coming from
Apple. Johnson tried to transform JC
Penney based on his worldview ofelegant low discount retail
(16:57):
sleek Apple like. But that wasn't the JC Penney
customers worldview at all. Not even close.
He abandoned the stores. True fans who, as the book says,
love this board of bargain hunting.
Their worldview was fundamentally different.
And sales plummeted. By over 50%.
Yeah. Because he didn't respect their
narrative. He tried to impose his own.
Wow. That's why the book encourages
typecasting or creating personaslike Bargain Bill or Careful
(17:19):
Carla. Exactly, each with their own
unique problem, desire and internal narrative that you
absolutely must speak to if you want to connect.
Let's look at a classic illustration of this focused
approach, Starbucks versus Dunkin' Donuts.
Great example. Both sell coffee right on the
surface, direct competitors. But as the book brilliantly
(17:41):
explains, Starbucks didn't try to compete directly with Dunkin
for their existing grab and Go customers.
They didn't try to be cheaper orfaster for that specific crowd.
No, instead they obsessed over serving a very precise group of
people. People with specific beliefs
about coffee, time, money, community, opportunity and
(18:01):
luxury. They weren't just selling a
drink. They were selling an experience,
a third place between home and work, a daily ritual that
elevated the everyday, somethingcompletely different from
Duncan's offering. This case study really shows how
being deeply specific about who it's for can build an enduring,
impactful brand. Totally.
Starbucks built a brand for the ages by committing to a defined
(18:22):
audience and their worldview. They let those who weren't a fit
simply go to no hard feelings. It's not about trying to be for
everyone. It's about being everything to
someone. The book emphasizes that your
goal should be to find people who will not only understand
you, but will also fall in love with where you hope to take
them. Making your movement part of
their identity. Exactly.
(18:43):
And that kind of love, Godin says, leads to traction,
engagement and evangelism. They want to spread the word
because it reinforces their identity and their worldview.
Which leads to this really radical but incredibly
empowering idea. The book champions the freedom
to say it's not for you. At first glance, that sounds
(19:04):
kind of rude, doesn't it? Exclusive maybe?
It does. But Godin argues that this
statement actually shows immenserespect.
You're not wasting their time, you're not pandering, you're not
trying to force them to change their beliefs.
Instead you're explicitly stating, look, I made this for
you. The Bush New gets this not for
the other folks, but for you. It's an act of clarity and
honesty, and it builds trust with your true audience.
(19:26):
So why is this so liberating forthe marketer?
For the creator. Because it frees you from the
tyranny of critics, the people who just don't get the joke or
aren't part of your intended audience anyway.
Right, you stop chasing universal approval, which is
impossible anyway. Exactly.
It gives you the privilege of polishing your story
specifically for those who trulyneed and want to hear it.
(19:47):
The book highlights that every best selling book on Amazon,
every major hit, has at least a few one star reviews.
It's truly impossible to create work that both matters and
pleases everyone. He tells that great story about
the comedian bombing in New Yorkbecause the audience was an
Italian tour group who didn't understand English.
(20:07):
The work wasn't bad. It just wasn't for them.
And when people don't choose you, the book urges us to
understand that they are correctin their decision to not choose
you because. Their decision decision is
rational based on their worldview and what they perceive
as valuable, not yours. That shift in mindset releases
so much pressure doesn't. It it really does OK.
So beyond finding your specific audience, Godin pushes us to
(20:30):
recognize the fundamental, oftenoverlooked purpose of marketing.
Making change happen. He says marketers are in the
business of changing people fromone emotional state to another,
taking them on a journey to become the person they've
dreamed of becoming. It's not just about selling a
product, it's about facilitatingA profound transformation.
(20:51):
Yeah, this point truly reframes the entire purpose of marketing.
Godin draws a crucial distinction between what people
make and what people want. People don't actually want what
you make, they want what it willdo for them and crucially, how
it will make them feel. He builds on Theodore Levitt's
famous line about the quarter inch drill bit.
Yeah. People don't want the drill bit,
that's the feature. They want the quarter inch hole.
(21:12):
That's the outcome. But Godin takes it even further.
He says people want to feel safeand respected when they have
that hole or may be capable or proud.
The drill bit is just a means toan emotional end.
So marketers are fundamentally in the business of delivering
key emotions, belonging, connection, Peace of Mind,
status. Exactly.
(21:33):
The product or service is merelya road to achieve those
emotions, which leads directly to the two guiding questions
Godin says every marketer needs to ask.
Who's it for? What's it for?
And the What's It For isn't about features, it's about
transformation and emotion. OK, so this idea of making
change is tightly linked to another key concept, creating
(21:53):
tension. Right.
And it it's important to clarifythis isn't about coercion or
manipulation or fear mongering. That's the old, unethical way.
No, it's about a respectful pushtowards a better state, a
forward motion that helps peoplecross a threshold they might
otherwise avoid. So how is this tension different
from fear? The book is very clear on this.
(22:15):
Fear is a dream killer. It paralyzes people, leaves them
stuck, right? But tension, as marketers can
generously create it provides the promise that we can get
through that fear to the other side.
It's about possibility. Tension is defined as the force
on a stretched rubber band, right?
A jolt that disrupts the status quo.
Exactly. The book differentiates between
(22:35):
a pattern match, which is business as usual, the easy safe
choice, and a pattern interrupt,which requires tension and a
willingness to take a risk. Is why the author notes it's
often so profitable to market topeople already in transition.
Yeah, like new dads, engaged women, recent movers.
They don't have a pattern to match, so it's all an interrupt.
They're already in a state of flux, open to new solutions if
(22:58):
the tension is framed correctly as helping them navigate that
change. Slack's rapid growth is
presented as a master class in this Isn't it?
Tension and pattern interruption.
Absolutely. Think about it.
Very few people actually want tolearn new software or
fundamentally change their work habits.
There's a natural human resistance to disruption.
Inertia is powerful. Yet Slack became one of the
(23:21):
fastest growing productivity products ever.
Multibillion dollar valuation inrecord time.
How did they do that? Well, Slack initially appealed
to a Godin calls neophiliacs, those early adopters who like
new software. Always looking for new ways to
work, they seek out the new. But the true genius was.
Giving them a tool to create a pattern interrupt for others in
(23:41):
their organization. The tension wasn't forced by a
salesperson or an ad. It was created by peers.
Exactly, a colleague simply says, hey, you're missing out.
We're discussing this important project in Slack.
The fear of missing out. FOMO.
Precisely. If you're not on Slack, you
quickly realize colleagues are talking about work without you,
making decisions without you, excluding you.
(24:02):
That tension is powerful. And it's released simply by
signing in. Yep.
Sign in. Join the conversation.
Tension gone. This single horizontal
transmission, peer-to-peer, built a massive company not
through traditional ads, but butdesigning in the incentive for
users to spread it because it improved their work life and
removed their social tension. Brilliant.
OK, let's shift gears slightly to another huge underlying
(24:25):
theme, the powerful, often unseen drivers of human
behavior, particularly status. Oh yeah, status is huge in the
book. It's not just about money or
power in the obvious sense, is it?
Not at all. He points out that if seemingly
irrational decisions are examined closely, you'll likely
see status roles at work. People spend an enormous amount
(24:46):
of time paying attention to status, consciously or not, he
states. It drives almost everything we
do. It's this underlying current in
nearly every human interaction. And this immediately brings to
mind Keith Johnstone's work on status roles from his book
Improv, the idea of the alpha dog and the runt determining who
eats first. In human culture, these roles
(25:07):
are everywhere, though often unspoken.
The book uses the opening scene of The Godfather as a prime
example, doesn't it? It does.
It vividly shows the stark contrast between the low status
Undertaker bonus era practicallybegging and the high status Don
Corleone effortlessly exerting power.
In just a few seconds, their relative status is crystal clear
(25:30):
and it dictates the whole interaction.
Exactly. Status, the book emphasizes, is
always in the eyes of the beholder.
It has inertia. People fight fiercely to
maintain it. It's learned and profoundly.
Shame is the status killer. Marketing that shames people or
lowers their perceived status isalmost always doomed to fail.
You have to respect their position or offer a way to
(25:50):
enhance it. Which ties into that simple but
incredibly powerful phrase. People like us do things like
this. That's a cornerstone of the
book, isn't it? It encapsulates how cultural
change actually happens. Our actions, Godin argues, are
primarily driven by this unconscious question.
What do people like me do in a situation like this?
Even when we adopt outlier behavior, like joining a fringe
(26:12):
movement or wearing something unusual.
We're still aligning ourselves with a tribe of outliers, people
like us who also do things like this.
It's about belonging and identity.
So how can marketers effectivelyleverage this dynamic?
By normalizing new behaviors within a specific culture, not
the universal culture that's toobig to diffuse.
(26:33):
Right, you can't change everyone.
No, but you can change a culture, a little pocket of the
world you specifically seek to serve.
And focusing on the smallest viable market maximizes your
chances of changing that specific culture.
Exactly because that core group,once they're enriched and
connected by the change you seekto make, will organically share
the word with the next layer andso on.
(26:55):
It creates this ripple effect ofvirtuous cycle adoption.
The Blue Ribbons Initiative is such a powerful real world
example of people like us in action.
Can you remind us of that story?Yeah, it's great.
The problem was pressing. A local school budget failed due
to rising taxes, threatening really draconian cuts if a
second vote also failed. The community was divided.
(27:17):
So not a marketing campaign in the traditional?
Sense. Not at all.
The solution was ingenious and entirely cultural.
A few activists tied 100 simple blue ribbons to a prominent tree
in the center of town. Just ribbons.
Just blue ribbons. Within days, thousands of blue
ribbons appeared on trees all across town, tied by dozens and
dozens of families. The message was simple, visible,
(27:40):
yet profound. People like us, people in our
town, people in this blue ribbondistrict support our schools.
And the budget passed. Passed 2 to one.
It wasn't a victory won by rational argument or data
points. It was a simple, visible act
that normalized the behavior andshifted the internal narrative
of the entire community. It showed residents visually
what people like us. We're doing powerful social
(28:02):
proof. The book is other examples too,
right? Like buying an expensive baby
stroller because you see yourself as smart.
Or shopping at the farmers market, because that's how we
see our people behaving. It's all about fitting in with
who you perceive your people to be, reinforcing that internal
narrative. OK.
So within this realm of status, Godin presents 2 fundamental
drives that marketers need to understand, affiliation and
(28:25):
dominion. Right, two very different ways
people seek and experience status.
Understanding which one drives your specific audience is
crucial. Can you define this for us?
Sure. Affiliation is characterized by
questions like who knows you? Who trusts you?
Where do you stand within the tribe?
Can't we all get along? Status here comes from
community, respect, being connected, being part of the
(28:48):
family. Like fashion trends, signaling
group membership. Exactly.
Modern urban Internet societies are often built on affiliation.
Dominion, on the other hand, is characterized by statements like
this is mine, not yours, Who hasmore power?
I did this myself. Status comes from control,
winning, beating the opposition.OK, two distinct drives, but the
key insight is. The crucial insight Godin offers
(29:11):
is that the way you personally see the world, whether you are
driven by dominion or affiliation, is far less
important than the worldview of those you seek to serve.
Their worldview is always stronger than the story you
choose to tell. Always.
You absolutely have to meet themwhere they are.
Speak to their drive for status.The book brings this to life
with that incredible case study about Doctor Leela Hazah and the
(29:34):
Maasai warriors reducing lion killing.
Oh, that's such a powerful story.
Traditionally, killing a lion was a deeply ingrained rite of
passage for young Masai men, A clear act of dominion, bravery,
establishing status within theirculture.
And rational arguments about conservation just weren't
working. Not.
Making a dent in those deeply held cultural beliefs and status
(29:55):
rituals, Dr. Azaz succeeded not by arguing, but by changing the
cultural ritual itself. Instead of demonstrating bravery
by killing a lion, the traditional act of dominion, the
new rite of passage, became saving lions, finding them,
naming them, tracking them. This became an active
affiliation within the community.
So it's shifted the status dynamic entirely.
(30:16):
Profoundly, the book uses this to illustrate that the true
underlying goals of the Maasai tradition were things like
community binding, empowerment, a rite of passage, none of which
were directly tied to the act oflion killing itself.
That was just a historical artifact, a method.
By understanding their worldviewand connecting to those
(30:36):
underlying desires for status and belonging.
She transformed A destructive act of dominion into a communal
act of affiliation, saving the lions in the process.
It's a brilliant example of how marketing, at its core, is about
understanding human drives and offering new, better pathways to
fulfill them. OK, so moving from understanding
The Who and why to the how, the book brings us to the really
(30:59):
crucial concept of permission marketing.
Yes, this is a big one, defined by Godin way back in his earlier
book. It's the privilege of delivering
anticipated, personal and relevant messages to people who
want to get them. The absolute opposite of spam.
Exactly. Spam is stolen, unwanted
attention. Permission is earned trust.
So why is owning a permission asset so critical today,
(31:20):
according to the book? Because platforms like Facebook,
where you're essentially a bear cropper on someone else's land,
can change the rules at any time, suddenly making it harder
or more expensive to reach the audience you thought you had.
Right, you don't own that connection.
You need the privilege of contacting people directly
without a middleman. The book clarifies that
(31:42):
permission doesn't always have to be formal, like signed
contract, but it must be obvious.
Like your friend can call to borrow money, but a random
contact can't just e-mail their resume.
Precisely. Subscriptions, however, are
overt acts of permission. The marketer's promise is clear.
I will do XY and ZI hope you will give me permission by
(32:02):
listening. And then, crucially.
You must stick to that promise, which requires immense humility
and patience. It's a long term game building
that trust. And the real life examples of
this are everywhere, aren't they?
Podcasters like us, hopefully. Hopefully when you subscribe to
a show, you're giving explicit permission for new episodes to
show up. Successful politicians build
permission assets through e-maillists or rallies.
(32:25):
Authors cultivate followings through newsletters.
The book emphasizes that this permission asset is far more
valuable than physical office equipment.
If someone walked out with your laptop, you'd fire them, right?
Absolutely. But many marketers squander
their permission assets daily byspamming, boosting metrics for
short term gain or breaking promises.
They don't realize they're destroying something truly
(32:46):
priceless. That Direct Line to people who
trust them. OK, so once you have permission,
how do you ensure your message actually spreads and gains
traction? This brings us to remarkability.
Yes, the famous purple cow. The goal here is to
intentionally create a product or service that people decide is
worth talking about. It's not about being merely good
(33:09):
or average. It's about being so different,
so outstanding, that it stands out.
Like a purple cow in a field of ordinary brown ones, you can't
help but notice it and talk about it.
And it's crucial to remember that whether something is
remarkable isn't up to the creator.
I know it's entirely up to the user.
If they remark on it, then it's remarkable.
Remarkable. That's how the word spreads
organically. The book explains why people
(33:30):
talk. It benefits them.
They're thinking, consciously ornot.
Look at how good my taste is, orlook at how good I am at
spotting important ideas. It reinforces their own status
or identity. This is profoundly different
from marketers resorting to selfish stunts, which are often
just offensive or attention grabbing without providing real
(33:50):
value. Godin also provides that
fascinating analogy from Fight Club.
The rule not to talk about FightClub.
Actually became an invitation totalk about it for the right
worldview. It signaled a shared secret and
inside track. Similarly, Alcoholics Anonymous
thrives because talking about itis seen as a generous act by its
members. It serves their purpose, not
(34:10):
just the organization's. True remarkability empowers the
user to spread the word because it benefits them.
OK. Finally, how do you bridge the
gap? How do you go from that initial
remarkable product or service embraced by those early adopters
to wider adoption? This is where the chasm comes
in. Right Golden highlights Jeff
Moore's concept of the chasm andthe Rogers curve of idea
(34:31):
diffusion. There's a fundamental difference
in mindset. Early adopters, the neophiliacs.
They love new and risky things. They get a thrill from
discovery. But the mass market, the vast
majority of people, they want safe, proven pattern matches.
They're not looking to break things or learn something new.
They want things to just work reliably.
(34:52):
Which is why few innovations simply glide across this gap
smoothly. There's a disconnect.
Exactly. The bridge across this chasm,
the book argues, lies in networkeffects.
Network effects explain that. Ideas or products that work
better when everyone uses them. This gives early adopters a huge
incentive to spread the word because it actually makes their
(35:14):
own lives better. Like Snapchat or Instagram,
users tell friends to join, not because the company asked.
But because if your friends followed you, your life would
improve. Your experience gets better with
each new user you bring in. That's the simple ratchet power
of network effects. So the bridge across the chasm
is built on 2 simple questions for the user.
Yes. What will I tell my friends and
(35:35):
why will I tell them? The why usually involves making
the offering better in a way that creates that network effect
for them. The book provides that
incredible case study for crossing the biggest chasm.
Facebook. How did that work?
It started hyper focused at Harvard right?
Not with a grand vision of connecting the world initially.
No, it was fulfilling an urgent status need for insecure Harvard
(35:59):
students finding their pecking order.
Who knows who, who's dating who,who's hot or not pay sick human
stuff. As it spread through the Ivy
League, it crossed one local TASM after another, driven by
that relentless ratchet of status.
The more friends you had on Facebook, the higher your
status, the more connected you were.
And then the leap to the generalpublic.
(36:19):
Enabled by combining that nerdiness with status, creating
an irresistible ratchet join or face social isolation.
That was the powerful tension that pushed it across the chasm
for the masses. But this isn't just for tech
companies, right? The book gives a non tech
example too. Absolutely the clean water in a
local village. Example using Water Health
International WHI. How did they cross the chasm
(36:41):
locally? Early doctors eager for new
solutions receive these bright colored water jugs.
They became a visible badge of honor, a status symbol whi then
used things like microscope projectors in schools to show
students and their parents the germs in The Dirty water made
the invisible visible. Creating awareness and maybe a
(37:01):
bit of tension there too. Exactly when children started
talking about neighbors having clean water and village leaders
were seen using the distinctive cherry cans, status kicked in.
People like us use clean water. Precisely.
This created a ratchet based on people in proximity, making
those without clean water feel socially isolated, or maybe just
behind the curve. The emotional shift, driven by
(37:24):
status and social norms, was thekey to crossing that local
chasm, improving health and changing a culture.
Wow. So we've really taken a deep
dive into Seth Godin's This is Marketing.
Today, we've uncovered how marketing is truly about making
meaningful change. It starts with that profound
empathy for your specific audience, leading you to focus
on the smallest viable market. From there, it's about
(37:46):
respectfully creating beneficialtension, leveraging those
unseen, powerful status dynamics.
And finally, building genuine permission and remarkability so
your ideas can actually spread and make a difference.
The book really reminds us that marketing, like any powerful
tool, gets its immense impact from the Craftsman, not the tool
itself. Its reach and speed today are
(38:07):
just unprecedented, yeah. With less money than ever
before, you can potentially havemore impact than anyone could
have imagined even 10 years ago.It's incredible.
We've explored how marketing, when done right at its best, is
a generous act, a powerful tool for good.
It's about building something that people would actually miss
if it were gone, something that resonates deeply with their
(38:29):
desires and transforms their lives for the better, even in
small ways. And this leads us right to
Govins final, really provocativethought.
It's a direct challenge to you, the listener.
He asks what are you going to dowith that impact?
He argues, quite forcefully, that if your work offers more
value than it's cost, whether it's a product, a service, an
idea, and you hesitate to marketit properly, you're stealing.
(38:53):
Stealing again? That's bold.
It is. You're holding back from someone
who genuinely needs to learn from you, engage with you, or
buy from you. You're denying them that value
because of your own hesitation. Your greatest contribution then,
is your willingness to see and be seen, to market yourself,
your ideas on the difference youare truly capable of making.
(39:14):
And the marketing we do for ourselves, those stories we tell
ourselves about what we're capable of, what's possible,
that can truly change everything.
So the question hangs there, what will you build next?
Popular Podcasts
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!