S2E2 Redefining Masculinity

How can we imagine and embrace masculine energy if we exist outside the body of a CIS man? This is an episode of memory sharing and truth spitting goodness with Trans-Masculinist, writer, and Blackgirlmasculine Founder, Nalo A. K. Zidan. From conversations with God to sharing intentional space with others doing the work of degendering their minds; Nalo and I share a beautiful conversation around our liberational journeys back to ourselves. 

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EPISODE REFERENCES

Reimagining Black Masculine Futures - an IG Live series on healing Black masculinities via  @Blackgirlmasculine

Love and Rage: The Path of Liberation through Anger by Lama Rod Owens

MUSIC BY: Onika of Black Dream Escape

PRODUCED BY: Goddess and Vesta

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:18):
[inaudible]

Speaker 2 (00:18):
Blessings, fellow weird and wild ones.
My name's goddess AKG, AKA yourfriendly neighborhood, which
they them, their pronouns,please.
And thank you.
Point blank, period.
Thank you for joining me in thepractice of finding our way back
to wholeness.
This is our temple, ourplaygrounds, our life and our

(00:40):
truths.
During our audio sessiontogether, I will be talking with
my village on how we arehealing, changing paradigms and
decolonizing and de gendering.
The mind you are not alone, youare enough.
Let's plant these divine seedstogether.
This work is for the collectivefrom me, Brandon, Brenda Kay,

(01:05):
and Vesta.
And there's a lot of magic thatgoes on behind the scenes.
Find ways to support and itreally suppressed.
Suffocate all the co-creators onthe show at the links Buller,
grab your pens and paper, grabyour woes and let go.

Speaker 1 (01:34):
[inaudible]

Speaker 3 (01:42):
Nalo.
AKA Zeidan is a queer blackwriter, organizer and trans masc
.
Masculinist whose work pushes atthe normative boundaries of
gender and sexuality and blackmasculinity experiences.
The independent blackmasculinity's scholar is the
founder and creative director ofblack girl masculine.
What, what a nonprofitorganization and media space for

(02:05):
queer black masculine identifiedwomen trans and non binary
people that in 2016, theorganization serves a global
audience with the mission toexpand and archive non-normative
masculine experiences born inMaryland and raised between New
York and DC.
Nala is currently completing adegree in women, gender and

(02:26):
sexuality studies at Louisianastate university.
And as a 2019 TEDx LSU speaker,Natalie has dedicated her life
to starting conversations.
That shift how we see the worldand everyone in it while
creating visibility and healingfor queer black experiences on
the way.
Yes.

(02:47):
Thank you.
How do you feel when people readyour bio?
I feel like it's a mouth fulland I feel like I want to
rewrite it every time and everytime I do rewrite it it's like
that.
I'm like, it's, it's

Speaker 4 (03:00):
Like that thing where you're balancing like scholarly,
academic, academic things, whereyou're in competition with white
spaces.
And then you also are like,actually, I'm just like, I love
black people.
I love gender creative peopleand we all try to make it.
So I created a space where wecan come together to map out
what that looks like for ourfreedom.
Yeah.

(03:27):
I mean, you've done a lot, butyeah, like, like the heart of it
and what you, um, what's yourintention is, is so simple
because it doesn't need to bereally said to you, I'm telling
you they, yeah, it's supposedto, when you're like trying to
get grants and you're up forawards, all these things.
So I've probably sent you likethe quick short version of that

(03:49):
it's even worse when it'slonger.
So like, I'm going to calm itdown a little bit.
Next time I gave him a bio tosomebody, but thank you so much.
Yeah, absolutely.
Uh, yeah, it's, it's, it'sworth, it's worth telling.
Um, but you are more than whatis on there.
So for sure.
I, I feel what you're saying.

(04:11):
Um, yeah, absolutely.
And again, thank you for doingthis, um, this conversation,
isn't one that I get to haveoften with other masculine of
center folks.
So it's like black folks.
So this is like, so, um, so youwere actually the first
recording of this season, soexcuse me if I'm rusty, but we,

(04:34):
uh, we're going to go throughour pronouns real quick.
Um, yeah.
And then say the race we, um, weembody and then we'll do a
little, check-in no doubt.
So my name's goddess and I usethey them, their pronouns and I
am black body.
My name is, is done.

(04:56):
Uh, I use all pronouns and I amblack may come.
Alright.
Alright.
Now we know it's clear.
So the check in for the day isin this moment, where in your
body do you feel, um, isexpressing your masculinity in

(05:20):
this moment?
I feel like my masculinity or mymasculine energy per se, is
manifesting a lot in my torso.
Uh, and shoulders, like I'vebeen feeling like more upright
and stronger in my back, evenwith the weight of understanding

(05:42):
and being with the weight of,um, not the ache of my ancestors
and in have with me constantlyand recognize some of their pain
as we, as we keep, continue tonavigate the stories of our
lives, being lost, all thosethings.
So like during this moment inthis pandemic time have noticed
that even in the ways that I'vefelt their pain, I've also felt

(06:04):
them keep my head high and my,and my back street and my
shoulders back and letting meknow that I'm loved.
Yeah.
It sounds like from what you'resaying, it's, it's a, it's that
strength that we find inmasculinity, but also strength
that we find, um, and feminineenergy as well.

(06:28):
Um, definitely not separate forsure.
No worries.
Um, so I feel it in my hips, Iactually, it's interesting.
You said that you, you feel verystrongly you're back.
Cause I threw out my back theother day.
Um, but I feel, um, a lot ofprotection in my hips and like

(06:52):
my shoulders, um, and that samefeeling of like the ancestors
are at my back.
Um, but what am I doing to honortheir story and honor my own
story and allow those spaces tokind of soften.
Um, and when I wrote thequestion for our check in, I

(07:15):
actually thought of somethingand I was like, well, I wonder
if we could do this too, of likere looking at those same spots
and where we know thismasculinity.
Cause my work is also in like,um, decolonizing, what it means
to be masculine.
Like how do I define thatfeeling also an a in a feminine
way or a non-gendered way.

(07:35):
So like, can we go back to it?
And like you did already.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I love the ways that, likethe body's designed that way too
.
Like you said, that you'd throwout your back, which is awful.
And also that your hips arelike, I still got to, you know,
it's like, it's such a, there'ssuch a sweetness in the ways
that like our bodies are stillalways trying to find the light,

(07:58):
like some flowers in some way.
Yes, absolutely feel that.
So, so where are you, where areyou asking me now?
Yeah.
Like if you could, um, read ascribe that like that area in

(08:21):
your back, um, and those sameattributes, but from a way that
isn't gender like outside ofmasculinity.
Yeah.
And that's a beautiful question.
Thanks for asking.
I think the, with regards towhere I hold certain energies, I
think the human construct of hisaesthetic and strength and kind

(08:42):
of colonization in general hascon has attached gender to a lot
of these things.
But I learned from, uh, theliminal space where I was able
to be with ancestors and howthey communicate with me through
peril and how they show up forme on a daily basis that like
gender is the limitation withwhich we are almost unable to,

(09:04):
to see gender energies or justenergies in general without
attaching into gender.
And so as I hold them in mybody, I'm the proof, you're the
proof.
The world takes us up in aparticular way.
We're a very visually satisfyingspecies.
Like everything is based ondesirability and all these
things.
And so as I navigate what thatmeans in my own body, um, I've

(09:27):
kind of like allowed theseenergies to ferment in me to
mean, um, what the, whatever theculture of my own life is
producing in them.
So like I'm supposed to be aparticular way based on how the
construct of gender, uh, andaesthetic has combined to say,
I'm supposed to be in dresses orI'm supposed to be softer.

(09:49):
I'm supposed to be whatever.
And I'm like, I am.
So I'm just also masculine andthat, and the balance of the
energies and me, um, just likethe stars will prove in
astrology, just like, uh, ourpersonalities would prove
they're things that are strongerin some ways than others, but it
ha it's not limited to thebodies that it manifests in.

(10:11):
It's not limited to the gendersthat I have and that all my
masculinities are valid in myexperience.

Speaker 3 (10:18):
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, I see, I love the way inwhich you, um, combine the body
with like nature and there's somuch language that we use that
we, we kind of assume to begender, um, and it doesn't have

(10:39):
to be, and it's that, that feelslike the real limitation.
And so when I think about thestrength that my hips are
holding it, like, you know, likethey're holding down the
foundation while they're partsof me heal that, um, that while
that reminds me of like a fatheror, um, it also reminds me of a
mother and it reminds me ofelders and it reminds me, um, of

(11:04):
the, the ways in which I myselfam, um, am learning how to, um,
have grace and understanding forthe ways in which my body
compensates, um, and noticingall of that.
So I definitely agree with you.
And it's a process, I think, um,as we go through the other

(11:25):
questions and have this chat,um, we learned the way like, um,
defining masculinity outside ofwhat we deem it to be is such a
process and it's going to takeour whole life, but in that
process, it's so beautiful.
Cause there's no map, so you canexplore all the terrain.

Speaker 4 (11:47):
And I think that's the, and I think Beth, the
sweetness, right?
Like there's, um, this space Iunder, I know what I was taught
at this man, but also I'mallowed to say, not that doesn't
feel like truth to me, you know,I'm allowed to sift through how
the world has tried to impress asocial understanding of

(12:08):
something.
And it also, isn't true for myexperience.
I'm allowed to push back againstthem, allowed to be free and how
it lands with me and how it istrue to me in my own experience
and how to share that space withother people.
And I think that's also why whengender is in the conversation,
we do have an issue with, um,how feminine energies manifest

(12:29):
in trans women or how masculineenergies, you know, manifest in
masculine women, non binarypeople, trans men, all those
things.
And I feel really deeplyconnected to this idea that, um,
energy isn't gendered is howwe're socialized.
And the first step for me isalways to, to separate it from

(12:49):
manhood itself and allow manhoodto take on the culture of itself
without allowing masculinity tothen be toxic overall
overarchingly.
I'm like, cause I'm asking youfeel me and I don't, I don't get
the same power.
Um, and I don't get the sameaccess to those things.
Um, so, so let's talk about howto complicate that, you know,

(13:09):
it's a, it's a really beautifulblooming and I'm always thankful
to share space and to learn sothat I can continue blooming in
my own manifestation of it too.

Speaker 3 (13:20):
Yes.
Always a process.
Well, going back to what youwere saying about like pushing
back against that, um, as alighter skin, black socialized
to be female bodied individual,all those words, um, what is
fake patients around boundariesand expressions of emotions were
placed upon you, um, at ayounger age and what were some

(13:43):
of the key moments in which youdefied them and push back at
them?

Speaker 4 (13:48):
That's a great question.
I am actually a Pentecostalbaby.
So it was even more complicatedthan that.
I was raised in Holy ghost byshouting Oregon plan church,
black church.
And so, you know, I wasn'tallowed to be with my

(14:09):
masculinity, if anything, mymasculinity was the rebellion
that continue to keep me curiousabout who I was, because it
didn't fit with what they weretelling me, you know, like I'm a
young child and I'm like, why,why when they joking around
fellow boys, my littleboyfriend, I feel no attraction
to this, you know, or not evenjust that, like why, when I'm

(14:32):
being put in these skirts ordresses, I don't feel as pretty
as I don't feel like I want tohear that.
You're pretty, you know what I'msaying?
Like, I don't some of those waysthat we have kind of wrapped up
the container of how to be witha girl or how to be with a
female body person, it's like,you, you CA you, you kind of get
lost in the structure of whatyou're supposed to be versus who

(14:55):
you are.
And the thing like for me,masculinity was that space where
I had to soften into myself toallow myself to have the balance
of all the energies that make meup rather than trying to take it
upon myself to be a rigid oneversion or the other of myself,

(15:15):
I always wanted to just be me.
And I was like, what does thatlook like?
I remember asking myself before,before I got to that place, I
fell on the alter at 12 yearsold.
And I was like, listen, Jesus,you feel me like crying full T
his red faced snapped.
And I was like, well, listen,Jesus.
If I got a demon in my body,that's causing me to like women

(15:37):
and to, to, you know, be at thattime, tomboyish was the language
that I use for myself becausethat's what everyone saw in me
as well.
I'm like, if this ain't supposedto be here, I'm asking you to
take it out and trust you.
I'm surrendering.
I left there and rememberedseeing the most beautiful child
that was in church that Sunday,um, that I'd ever seen.

(16:02):
And I was still drawn to her insome desirability way.
And she was also, I think shewas 13, she was 12 or 13.
And after that moment, I beganto ask a lot of questions about
whether or not my emotion, theways that I processed emotion,
the ways that I understood mybeing my body, all that, if it

(16:24):
was real, you know, it's like,um, I began to imagine who I
actually was rather than livingit because I wasn't allowed to.
And so I think pushing backagainst the emotions that were
in conversation with thatpretending or the manipulation
of myself, to be able to besocially accepted by my church

(16:45):
or whatever, I'm likesuppression also wouldn't have
saved me from hell.
Cause I still felt that things Ifelt and knew myself to be the
personnel was.
So after I broke out of that andkind of, you know, started the
repair of everything that I feltI'd lost it from indoctrination.
It allowed me to bloom intoasking the questions necessary,

(17:08):
to separate myself from theculture of masculinity to build
or create with community whataccountable masculinity's can
look like, what it means toactually submit to who we are
without, um, having thiscategory that belonged to men.
And I was then in imposter,impersonator in names.
So it's definitely been ajourney that I've had to kind of

(17:31):
be with the nuances of myparticular masculinity.
So I wasn't following men andtrying to learn from, you know,
how they speak to women or howthey dress or how they do
whatever.
It's like, I can do it my way.
I have this organic masculineenergy in me just as much as we
assume is in our sons whenthey're born.

(17:51):
And so it's been, it's been atime navigating all that.
Yes.
I'm like picture a young Nalocherish, like just like tears
running down your face and likethat moment.
Yeah.
That moment of, especially at ayoung age, because that moment

(18:11):
of completely like letting go ofthe tethers that we think define
us and just laying it all outand being like, where is me in
this?
What is my truth?
Um, and then to start, like tostart with the process of like
picking up the pieces that youfeel really do resonate with
you.

(18:33):
And also God, I'm like, I'm likeyou, if you knew percent, um,
and like you, if you'reeverywhere, all powerful, all
knowing I need you to like, howdid you like, where's your
accountability?

Speaker 5 (18:52):
[inaudible]

Speaker 4 (18:52):
I don't really say I didn't have to come out
outwardly say I'm gay, I'mqueer.
I'm whatever.
I didn't even know the languagefor.
Cause I was like a machinistchild who was also, they had
attempted to show to me in a lotof ways.
And so when I think about it,I'm like I had no connection to
who I actually was because I wasstill in this space of acting

(19:15):
toward what was satisfied, thepeople that I cared about.
And it that's what made it sohard.
It's like, I'm at, I wanted toknow from God.
I'm like, if you, if being amission omnipotent and I'm there
percent means anything to you,then you knew who I'd become or
what I was struggling with as achild.
Is it that humans got it wrong?

(19:36):
Or did God let me down?
And that was a huge struggle forme, for sure.
What was the struggle and foryou with that piece?
Cause I think there's a lotthere.
You said what happened for me?
It kind of glitched a littlebit.
Oh yeah.
It's on my end too.
I'm hoping we'll be okay.
Um, what was the struggle foryou with that piece of like, did

(20:01):
God let me down or was it like,you know, something within me?
Yeah, I think, I think it wasthat day.
You know, when I, when I layface down on the alter and after
service and ask God, like, ifit's a demon, you know, and if
these stories are true, eventhough I've been praying, even

(20:24):
if my family didn't go tochurch, our God, my little
preteen self on the bus and rodecross town, four buses to get
from one side of DC to theother, just to get there, you
know, and to be, um, in rightrelationship with God and to be
with the text and to, um, toshow God that I was a loyal
servant, all these things.

(20:46):
And then for, for them moment tocome up for me and for it not to
be changed, I was strugglingwith whether like the moment
after that prayer or laying onthe author of worshiping, if
that was the moment where Godwas affirming, that I was okay
because I, because I felt thatconnection to the girl right

(21:08):
after, or if I was just acenter.
And the thing that kind ofcleared that up for me was over
time when I realized that myconnection to spirituality, to
God, into, um, the very liminalspace of, between this body and
eternal life for, um, otheruniverses was the fact that if I

(21:32):
was that low on the scale ofwhere God would be pleased, then
I wouldn't be as blessed as Iam.
You know what I'm saying?
Or I wouldn't have access to, um, the joy that I feel like I'm
like the way that I understoodthe Bible was to limit the
blessings of those who cameagainst sky per se.

(21:52):
And that was just something Ireally struggled with.
And then I'm like, I've beencalling God.
He pronouns all the time.
He telling me that you feel melike he, or any of the ways that
it was construct God wasconstructed for me.
I had questions about, and I'mlike, who said, if I made an
image of God, then God is queerand God is all identities and
God is not gender by he and allthese other things.

(22:15):
I'm like, let's talk about whatthe image of God is based on the
vastness of what we know humansto me, I'm like humans are the
ones limiting what God power orspirit power looks like.
So it was a journey.
Okay.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (22:33):
Yes.
Coming back to that, divine this, um, like, so, so we're both
reading love and rage by LamaRago.
And, um, and in it, he talksabout, um, how like black folks
have been like disconnected fromour bodies because of racial
trauma.

(22:53):
And that goes racial trauma asgender trauma is all, all the
things.
So, um, but it makes us feelunsafe to occupy ourselves and
also to trust ourselves andtrust what we are feeling and
that it is not a sin and that weare not bad people.
So I'm curious, like after thathappened, after that moment in

(23:16):
church, um, and then seeing that, that, that beautiful young
woman, like who in your lifereflected continuously reflected
back to you, um, that is, wasokay and safe to occupy yourself
and like, or did you have tocontinuously just fill up your

(23:38):
own cup?

Speaker 4 (23:41):
Yeah, yeah, it absolutely is.
And you know, I did have to makethe decision.
It was like, you know, churchalso offers this very powerful
component that keeps us comingback is the fellowship, is the
food, it's the culture is thefamily.
And all that wrapped up into, uh, you know, the gift of what

(24:06):
church with the black churchI'll say specifically was for
me, I had to be willing to giveall that shit up.
Excuse my language.
I'm like I had to be willing.
I had to be willing to give thatup because, and that was the
hardest part.
It's like, are you going tochoose you or the experience of

(24:26):
this performance, do they reallylove you?
Or do they love the idea of youbeing obedient to God?
And the ways they know is true.
And that is, that's what messedme up.
I was like, actually, I only getthis one life on this earth.
I'm not harming nobody becauseI'm trying to figure out who I
love and who I am and how tolove me, how to be in right

(24:48):
relationship with myself.
If that means compromising myrelationship with you guess who
I play I'm out of here.
And that was, that was importantfor me to recognize that I
needed to be able to say that Ilove myself enough to continue

(25:09):
fighting for my relationshipwith myself fighting to be in
right relationship with myself.
Like what did that mean to me?
Um, and that's kind of where Ipivoted and wanted to fight for
myself outside of indoctrinationand how, um, how that was the
limitation that I couldn'treally fight through is your,

(25:32):
um, I want to ask you, I don'tknow if this can be added up the
recording, but is your screenstill freezing and stuff too?
Yeah, it is.
I was actually gonna see if wecould take off our video and
that'll help with the, so I'mgoing to tell everybody in my
house to get off the welfare too.
Cause that's my internetconnection.

(25:57):
They be playing me sometimes.
I'm like, why am I paying forthis?
So it could be me on my aunt too.
Who knows.
Let's see, it's all good.
We're going to do what we gottado to make sure.
Um, so you said turn video off.
Yeah.
Let's see if that'll help withokay.
Anything, but if like, if ourvoices aren't going to hear you

(26:19):
the whole time, like you didn'tin this audio, it just is.
So it might not even matterunless you're doing a video clip
of this.
No, I'm not.
It just helps with like inconversation, but like, this is
totally fine.
So yeah.
Perfect.
Perfect.
Sounds good.
Um, Oh, that was, she was like,okay.

(26:41):
Yeah, I was talking about, I wastalking

Speaker 3 (26:44):
About releasing from indoctrination to be in right
relationship with myself at theexpense of the relationships I
had with blood family, with thepeople that were only satisfied
with me when I was doing whatthey wanted me to do for my
life.
Right.
Um, and that, that hits home somuch because I was actually

(27:05):
raised a Jehovah's witness.
So similar ideas around, um,expectations and like this
constant shaming of who you areand having to repress repress or
press in order to be deemedvaluable, um, and deemed like
worthy of love.

(27:25):
Um, yeah.
And so it's one thing that Inoticed about like every time I
refused to, to believe what wasbeing told to me, um, there was
always a pushback and a sadnesscoming from the people that

(27:48):
helped raise me.
And that was harder for me.
I mean, like, it was hard for me, um, to come to terms with
what, how, how would I thoughtwas God at the time, like was
viewing my, my life, but to havelike my family, like my family,
like my mother, um, strugglewith me being fully who I am

(28:10):
that felt like that's my firstGod is my mom.
Right.
So, so learning how to take inand, um, and get, um, taking the
information of people who thinkthey know you because you know

(28:35):
that they've raised you, um,they've been around you, um, and
allowing them the space to kindof come to terms with that,
whether they don't or do wasnever a part of like, Oh, how I
define myself.

(28:57):
Right.
And so, yeah.
So, so coming, coming to termswith that, but then I'm like
losing my thought.
I'm like, come back to it, guys,come back to it.
I understand.
Yeah.
But uh, having learning that itis okay to be wrong, um, and

(29:29):
that there might not be thiswhole black and white and I've
nipple, stunt and perfectionthat we've been told is there.
And then when that shattered forme, that idea that like, if
you're not this way, then youcan't be any way at all.
I'm completely just dismantle iflike, and like less me wide open

(29:54):
to explore everything.
Um, and that's what that was all.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (30:00):
Yeah.
It was the same for me because,because think about when I think
about it, I'm like, what is thisobsession we have with right
wrong binaries, whether it bereligion or the value of a human
life or whether or not blackpeople deserve to be treated a
particular way, whatever it is,there's always a yes, no right
wrong binary that always comesup.

(30:21):
Whether you should be queer ornot.
Like when the questionsthemselves shouldn't even be
asked, it's like, how can I bein right relationship with the
people who manifest that thereare more possibilities than
those that I've been taught?
It's like, you have no, you haveno more proof than I do.
Like what kind of God is there?
You know, what you've beentaught and believe, you know,

(30:43):
based on those principles andpractices.
But do we, do we allow ourselvesto make room, to be in community
with those who are differentthan us.
And I feel like amongst likeblack communities, especially
the black church, there is anamount of, there is so much of a

(31:06):
cultural rest in trust in thatbecause of where we've come from
it and how much we've struggled.
Um, and I think that space, uh,creates like this kind of safe
Haven for us in that safe Haven.
We don't allow ourselves tothink outside of it.
Cause we're like, if I wouldmove outside of this, then I'm

(31:28):
not protected, then anything canhappen to me.
And I'm like, I understand, youknow, I empathize with that.
And also I won't be limited toit, you know?
And I won't be limited by itmoving forward in my life.
I want to know what being inright relationship with spirit
is.
I want to know how powerful Iam.
I want to know that like, um, Idon't have to like everything

(31:52):
that I've been told, I can alsoquestion or be curious about and
that it's not a, I'm not, it'snot some, my life is not some
period of time where someone islike looking at me, waiting for
me to do what is pleasing tothem.
Like I want to be able to knowthat I think about it in the
ways to look at this wholeworld.

(32:13):
If I cut my finger, it, itattempts to heal itself, no
matter how bad it is, like ourbodies are created that way.
We, the food we eat is mostly,you know, uh, processed and
whatever else our bodies areworking double time.
We don't have to set an alarmclock for our lungs and our
heart to be, you know, in ourlungs to expand and take our
next breath who created themountains.

(32:35):
There are vast bodies of waterthat take chemical imbalances.
Everything grows on earth, comesfrom dust storms that spread
seeds throughout the world.
It's like, y'all know, can tellme that the lemons, Haitians,
like, you know what I'm saying?
I'm like, they're possibilitiesthat we can't be in touch with
because we limit ourselves.
And I'm like the divinemasculine and everything that is

(32:59):
embodied in the power that weneed, that we reflect on in our
own lives, speaks to theevolution in potential for new
possibilities.
But not if we stay in the spacesthat feel comfortable to us, you
know, we have to stay curious nomatter what.

Speaker 3 (33:18):
Absolutely.
And when you, when you weretalking about like staying in
communities, because it feelssafe, that is so rooted in
trauma.
That's like, so that's like thementality that we have is like,
I want to feel connection.
I want to feel a part ofsomething.
And there's all these thingsoutside of this community that
was built for me.

(33:38):
They said it was built for me.
They, you know, these peoplelook like me.
Like there's so many thingsoutside of that community that
will literally kill me, that Ineed to stay within this
community to, to survive.
Um, and that's so rooted in ourhistorical trauma.
And so to, to do what you aredoing to do what so many people

(34:01):
are doing, starting to becurious and starting to look at
the ways in which that communityhas nuances and we need to start
celebrating those nuances.
Um, yes, it's a part.
Yeah.
Is a part of that.
Magic is a part of the processof healing.
It's so healing and it's, and weare nature, as you were talking

(34:23):
about with seeds were meant tospread and grow.
Um, and all of that is ourprocess.
Oh yes.
Like,

Speaker 4 (34:37):
So it's so beautiful.
Whoa.
Especially cause I'm obsessedwith, I'm obsessed with like
mycelium networks and mushrooms.
And like, just thinking aboutthe fact that nothing would be
11 earth without them is, is, iscrazy to me.
It's just like, you know, likeeven that the fact that I, I
learned about these, theseproteins that grow in plants

(34:58):
that are forced to grow out ofseason because capitalism and
food production has become amajor market, especially like in
the United States, but alsoaround the world.
And when a plant is planted andharvested outside of its season,
as a defense mechanism, itliterally grows with toxins in
it that can destroy your, yourdigestive system over time.

(35:21):
I'm like all these things, likeall the languages of everything
that is alive on earth, we needto be in right relationship
with.
And that's some of the ways thatI was able to separate myself
from indoctrination because theworld proved to me, there was
more to believe in and more tobe in right relationship to than

(35:41):
some male God in this guy.
Like I, I'm a believer in somany ways.
And I practice gratitude in waysthat don't force me to gender
God or to, or to, uh, placelimitations on how I'm supposed
to perform my life in proximityto God.
It means constant, veryrelationship with humans and

(36:02):
every other living thing here,it means not taking more
resources than you need.
It means learning how to sharespace with one another.
So those are the ways that myworship and my gratitude are
expressed in any of my work.
So I hope and pray that all ofus get there too.
It's definitely not an easyjourney.
It's easy to be gritty out here.

(36:23):
Oh, wow.

Speaker 3 (36:23):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
There is, um, uh, generativeenergy in your practice and in
the ways in which you expressyour masculinity and outside of
them,

Speaker 4 (36:40):
Masculinity, um, that's, that's truly beautiful.
Um, yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I appreciate this goddess.
I really do.
I do.
There's this sweet, there's asweet energy here.
That space for all that, allthat blacks.

Speaker 3 (37:02):
Um, so B because, um, you have gone through all of
this emergence, um, and continueto do so.
What is, how does

Speaker 4 (37:17):
Community reflect this back to you now?
Um, like what, well, how

Speaker 3 (37:23):
So does your community kind of like hold
space for all of thesubmergence?
How do they practice

Speaker 4 (37:32):
With you?
You know, I'll be honest, it's,it's a, it's a give and take and
a push pull, you know,oftentimes and beyond, like, and
I'll give an example.
Um, I've recently been, youknow, I'm someone that because
of the way that I was raised andwhat I've had to do to survive

(37:52):
indoctrination and to get out ofit.
And then what that has meant tokind of raise myself and to be
part of communities thatactually, and then start to like
build trust building practicesthat allowed me to be, um, in
community space with otherpeople, allow myself to be
loved, to be taken care of, toget access to resources.

(38:12):
Um, I think one of the biggestways that community is in
relationship with me now is likethis same rebellion I had as a
child navigating.
This is the same rebellion,probably times 10, that I have
now as a curious black masculineperson.
And, um, as I navigate communityspace, I do notice, you know,

(38:35):
the, the ways that they fallshort or that I, um, you know,
my masculinity might sometimesshow up as defensive or learning
in public is sometimes hard orwhatever those things are.
And as a w I live my life to bepresent with what it means to be
a human being.

(38:55):
You know what I'm saying?
So I'm not trying to be this,this shiny model of a human, I'm
not trying to be this perfectrendition.
I want you to know that Istruggle.
I fuck up sometimes.
You know what I'm saying?
I have ways that I have yet tounlearn about my masculinity's
due to the dominant culture ofwhat masculinity has, how
masculinity is being shown to meand what that culture has been.

(39:17):
But I know that I'm willing tobe active in the work of undoing
and re-imagining blackmasculinities.
You know what I'm saying?
So that's, that's been thebiggest thing.
Like there are so many people inmy community that are still
trapped in, like, there's arealization of who they are, but
they also are still strugglingwith like completely being
outside of indoctrination or,you know, the Bible and all

(39:40):
these other things.
There are people who, you know,feel like they gotta be a
particular way with womenbecause we have yet to, you
know, in any massive, radicalway, detached manhood from
masculinity, um, and heldmanhood accountable as a culture
versus masculinity as a whole.

(40:03):
Um, and because I think ofmasculinity as an energy that
does present itself as a set oftools and resources that can be
abused as power.
And as I reflect on that andnavigate that, I understand
myself to be someone who wantsto be an example of what

(40:24):
re-imagining can look like.
Um, and so I hold space.
I try to, you know, I try to bethere when community needs me
and it just, you know, havingthe conversations that push back
against what we think we knowI'm like, I want us to
constantly be okay withnormalizing conflict, with what

(40:45):
we've grown comfortable in,because there's still more, you
know what I'm saying?
Um, and, and that has been a bigthing for me.
So with community I've just, uh,tried to, I've tried to hold
spaces that invite complexityrather than, um, even the
activism's we've learned or thelimitations in movement work or

(41:06):
whatever.
It's like in the fight for blacklives.
We still have not gotten to aplace where we allowed all black
lives to matter.
We got some people that are okaywith trans lives.
Some people that are like thesewomen are women, some people
that are like, you know what I'msaying?
You're not black enough orwhatever the case is.
And so all of these nuanceconversations though important,

(41:27):
still needs to be met with thecomplexity that, um, we, we also
have, uh, a means for what itcould look like to be powerful
and community outside of thewhite gaze.
So that's how I try to reflecton all of that.
That's odd.
Try to reflect on all of it.
Cause men is it also complex,but I feel like we can do it.

(41:49):
You know, I feel like the mostbrilliant people in the world of
people of color black people.
And I'm like, if anybody can getthis shit right, it's us, you
know what I'm saying?
It might not mean that we allbecome millionaires because
whiteness is created for whitepeople.
And we understand that verymuch, but what does it mean to
be in right relationship withone another, as black people, if
all black lives matter, does itjust mean the black lives you

(42:09):
think are good or do we haveroom to also provide resources
to people who haven't been sogood or whatever in the
construct of what that means?
So I just, I really just want to, I just try to keep extending
community and staying elastic sothat I can expand and grow as I
do with community.

Speaker 3 (42:30):
Yes.
Um, when you were talking aboutthe different, um, like when
people get defensive over like,Oh, you're not black enough.
Oh no.
Like we need to put like blackmen first, whatever it may be.
There's so much defensivenessthere and that yes.

(42:52):
Um, and, and, and there's a wayto pack it in which we don't
have to be defensive.
Like the defensiveness feelsvery rooted in whiteness.
Um, and it feels like a toolthat like white men have used
for so long to not, to not trulyface themselves.

(43:14):
And so we use that tool as well,and it's such a disassociation
of our true selves, um, forwhat's actually happening.
We are built, like we buildthese, these walls of defense,
um, and, um, behaviors thatexpress anger that push us away
from what's actually happeningin the moment.

(43:36):
Um, and, and that's what I do.

Speaker 4 (43:40):
Yeah.
And it's either going to bereductionist or expansive.
It's like, those are the only,like the direct issues are going
to go in every direction, orit's going to reduce someone to
a particular thing.
You know what I'm saying?
Like we were having aconversation.
And I think, I think because,uh, you know, because I'm a
light skinned person and yourrich skin person, you know, I'll

(44:01):
bring this up, but like we werehaving a conversation on
colorism and, uh, we weretalking about light skin
privilege.
And one of the things that cameup was the fact that light skin
and like beauty standards are,are definitely not mutually
exclusive because you have tofactor in some of the other, um,

(44:22):
benefits that aestheticprivilege affords people.
So I thought about, you know,uh, albino people, disabled
people, fat people, um, uh,people who are, uh, just anyone
that doesn't fit into thedesirability politics.
Whiteness has impressed upon usin media or anything else.
And so, um, you know, ablebodied people, all these things.

(44:45):
And I'm like when we considerthose, those nuance spaces,
someone who is not light skinned, conventionally attractive, you
know, skinny or whatever, as Iam, I have to hold space
differently than someone who is,you know, albino and, and
struggling with, uh, a cognitiveability or whatever other

(45:07):
things.
And I'm like, so when we talkabout light skin, we need to
also have the complexity ofunderstand that light skin is
not where the PR the privilegesaesthetics and light-skinned
together are where we need tohave the conversation.
Because on the spectrum of, uh,of colorism, in order to send to
those who have been harmed themost by colorism, it takes us

(45:29):
understanding that those nuancesare Y you know, it's like the
desirability politics whitenesshas created is why rich skin
people are not desirable.
The ways that we have, uh, madeskinny people uplifted is why
fat people are not desirable.
You know what I'm saying?
So I want us to complicate theconversations around that.
And a lot of times, because ofthe rebellion that I have

(45:52):
against just these umbrellastructures of activism that
don't complicate conversationsenough to speak to, um, people
who have been in these varyingsituations, you know, there's
like, it's, it's, it's hard.
But as a people, I feel like itto reimagine into imagine what

(46:12):
black futures can look like.
We need to be able to not alwayssee ourselves the way white
people see us.
I'm like, we're going to do withone another white people.
Don't get to say, who'sbeautiful in this space.
You know what I'm saying?
We can talk about media and allof that.
And we can, we can talk aboutthe tailored conversations for
each of these things, instead ofjust impressing upon people that

(46:33):
rich and people are notbeautiful.
So they need to be uplifted.
I'm like, are you saying that?
Or are you just using, like, areyou only seeing the world in
proximity to how white peoplesee the world?
I'm like, all of our media needsto have risk and black people,
you feel me, I'm like, do wecreate that for ourselves?
Instead of waiting for whitepeople, didn't do it.
So is this it's such acomplicated, but those are some

(46:54):
of the ways that when I'm incommunity, I do refer a lot of
feathers.
Cause we, we want to, you know,I want us to be able to push
past how white people havetranslated our humanity back to
us in ways that are damaging.
You know what I'm saying?
And, uh, one, I want to see usbe able to be in my relationship

(47:16):
with one another, um, beyondwhite gazes.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (47:23):
And, and that being in that place of like having a
conversation, um, with peoplethat we may or may not know, um,
might be close to and standingour ground is something that
I've, I'm learning to practice,but all the ways in which I,
yeah.

(47:43):
And all the ways in which I'veseen it practice where from this
very like toxic like guard, likeI was talking about that
defensive toxic way.
So like when I feel power hungry.
Yes.
And so when I feel that that,that tightness and that
constriction that comes frombeing hurt and wanting to
protect myself, there's acertain stance.
I get like both feet on theground leaning in like Knuck, if

(48:07):
you buck kind of thing, youknow, but then you have to cut
the neck, come back into myself.
Like after I have created like awall, I'm able to come back into
myself and say, how am Iactually feeling about this and
why is it hurting me?
And how do I engage now fromknowing that place that a

(48:27):
boundary has been caught crosswithin my safety, where I can
gauge this, say know somethingabout this is fucked up and how
do we reevaluate this and how dowe start to dissect it and pull
at it at the ways in which thereis so much repair that needs to
be done here.
Okay.

Speaker 4 (48:44):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
That's, that's a huge part ofit.
Like there is so much repair tobe done.
And, and like, when we thinkabout, um, you know, repairing,
I think about community basedwork, cause in ultimately I
think about the ways that whitepeople have destroyed so much of
even what we've tried to buildamongst ourselves.

(49:05):
So I think about black wallstreet, I think about Tulsa, I
think about, um, all thesedifferent moments in history and
, and the trauma that's like inour bones, in our backs, in our
hips, you know, like we weretalking about those energies, I
kind of like, I try to centerand find where some of these
trauma energies are so that Ican be in relationship with it

(49:26):
rather than, you know, takingthe ibuprofen, just so that I
don't feel that it's there.
I want to know how to show, youknow what I'm saying?
And obviously those things arehard because we deserve to feel
good at any given moment.
And sometimes we don't have thecapacity to go through what the
pain is like.
But I, I, I think about thecenter of us as a people, um,

(49:50):
and really wanting us to, I wishI'll say my hopeful thinking is
that I wish we weren't so tiredand exhausted with the world
that we'd have the effort to, tolearn what it means to be in
community.
To know that none of us aredisposable and that we all
should be against investingblack bodies in prison,

(50:10):
industrial complexes, and thatwe need to be in right
relationship with each other andwho has privileged in our
communities.
And how do we get access tothese spaces to bring people who
are non-visible.
Um, you know what I'm saying?
Like, let's talk about how to bein right relationship with
privilege and those who are notseen, like, I want us to think
about it in more expansive waysthan you owe me.

(50:31):
And so you need to be at theback, you know what I'm saying?
I'm like, Hm, we, we less, lesscomplicate the ways whiteness
wants us to be up against oneanother in rigid ways.
Like, I want to soften for you.
Like, how can I be in rightrelationship and share space?
That feels like a brave space,not even a safe space, because

(50:51):
we don't have access to that asa people, there is no safe space
per se, but there are spaces wecreate that are brave enough to
have conversations that we needto be having so that we can
soften into trust building withone another so that our
communities can talk aboutcommunity accountability and
transformative justice andrestorative justice, rather than

(51:12):
throw them in prison or I'mgonna kill him because they did
a particular thing to me.
I was like, wait, what does itlook like to create our own
version of life, you know, incommunity.
So it's hard, but I just can'thelp.
But believe that it's possible.
Yeah.
I am right there with you.
I know it's possible just in thework that is now being done and

(51:36):
the spaces in which we'recurrently in.
Like, I could never have dreamedof this as a little little
thing.
Um, when you said, I wish weweren't so tired.
Do you feel that rests needs tocome before the work

(52:02):
specifically for black people?
Do you feel like rusty has tocome first?
Um, you know, I feel likethat's, I feel like it's a
community breakdown as well thatwe don't have rest because we
haven't been able to do the workto get together.
So I feel like it's, uh, it'sboth ends like in order to get
rest, we have to be in communitywith one another so that when

(52:24):
you need to step down, I gotyour back.
You know what I'm saying?
When, when you need to sleep andyou got two babies, I need to be
able to say, I'll take them forthe day.
So you can do what you need todo for yourself.
Or black owned businesses iscoming to the neighborhood,
their local neighborhoods, andbe like, who needs a job?
You know what I'm saying?
All of these different ways thatI feel like we like, even though

(52:49):
we are tired and, and ourexhaustion looks different ways,
it's like, I feel like I want usto wrap our minds around the
sacrifices and the exhaustion.
That was even crazy amount.
Like it was insurmountablecompared to what our ancestors

(53:10):
have been through.
You know what I'm saying fromthose who are zoos to those who
are enslaved to any of it.
And I almost hate this kind ofentitlement that comes along
with, um, you know, movementwork today that, that doesn't
leave room for people to fallshort or to need help or to not

(53:31):
always have the politicallycorrect language or whatever
those things are.
And I'm like, but the greaterpicture is right relationship.
You know what I'm saying?
Right.
Relationship is more importantthan somebody who's slipped up
in misuse your pronouns in itlike unintentionally or
whatever.
Some like right.
Relationship is more important.
And it's, it's hard because whenwe're hurt, those things are so

(53:53):
much more of a gut punch.
You already got all this hurtthat we're managing and all this
hurt that we're carrying fromgenerations.
And then the tiny things justmake us, you know, are a blow to
our gut.
And it's like, we don't have away, you know, there's no map,
well how to do this.
So that's why we need communityin order for rest to happen.

(54:14):
We do have to start the hardconversations in order for us to
happen.
We do have to learn what rightrelationship looks like.
And in order to be in rightrelationship, we do need to know
what it means to, to live a lifeinstead of just surviving.
You know what I'm saying?
We need each other to do that.

Speaker 3 (54:34):
Absolutely.
And I don't think that rest issynonymous with like checking
out or this place of, um, noaction.
Like rest is, especially forblack and indigenous people is
work learning what rest actuallymeans and not having shame
around it is something that weare continuously reminding
ourselves to do.

(54:56):
Um, and, and rest can look likeso many different things.
Like when I think of my rest nowmy rest looks like learning how
to practice boundaries withwhite people, because I need
bread from white people.
Yes.
And that that's, that's apractice in itself.
That's toilsome work.
So yes, you are in a place ofrest, feels like a place of like

(55:22):
breath, like fully being in thebreath and being present so that
you can, um, come in wholewholehearted, whole, whole
bodied.
Um, like you were saying to havethose hard conversations.
Like I imagine, um, like a groupof all my black loved ones, like

(55:44):
laying down and like this almostcuddle puddle kind of thing, but
not like creepy,

Speaker 4 (55:51):
Just so good

Speaker 3 (55:52):
Together.
And, and like allowing what weneed to say to come up.
And because we are in a placewhere we feel secure and brave,
we can, we can hold that spacetogether.
That feels like a whole bunch ofwork.
And all that feels likedelicious work, restorative

(56:13):
work.

Speaker 4 (56:14):
If we can do it together as if we can get
together, it is that deliciouswork, you know?
And I call that breathing intoeach other.
It's like, I will take, I'lltake your exhale and you take
mine.
Like we breathe into one anotherbecause that like the sweetness
and that next breath is thereminder that we're both alive.
Like, let's figure this shitout.

(56:34):
It takes all of our minds.
It takes all of our experiences.
It takes the nuance.
I ain't telling my struggleOlympics, well, I actually, this
are you actually that, you knowwhat I'm saying?
We could do that forever.
If you want to talk aboutexperience because black people
done been through some shit, butI want to know how we met by
relationship without alsoconsidering any of us

(56:57):
disposable, you know, and that'sgoing to take generations,
probably.
I don't, I'm not even sure ifhumans as a species will be here
by that time, you know, theyreport some alien sightings.
I'm like, come pick me up.
Uber, come get me

Speaker 5 (57:26):
[inaudible].

Speaker 4 (57:26):
But I, I, I value community so much because I know
how powerful black people are.
I know it because the blackcookout powerful.
I know it because the black fanreunion powerful, the black
church though indoctrinating andall these things is also
powerful.
It's limited because of the waysthat, uh, you know, God has been

(57:47):
given to us or shown to usthrough Christianity and the
umbrella of that.
But the comradery, thefellowship that coming together
in spiritual worship together,that energy in one building come
through, like the music, youcouldn't pull me on gospel
music.
If you tried, you know what I'msaying?
They be saying so wild stuff.
Sometimes Brenda Clark Cole,okay.

(58:11):
You don't have a good time.
I think of all these spaceswhere black people are in
community and I'm like, what arethose possibilities?
And how do we sustain them sothat it only strengthened so
that there's no breakdown.
I'm like, well, Conda is real.
That was somebodies imagination.
But that can be a realunderstanding of how we fortify

(58:34):
one another.
You know what I'm saying?
Showing up with our strengths,our privileges and resources to
get access and present new waysto bring in community.
That's so important to me.
I'm going to get you off tracktoo.
Cause I know we got way offtrack with like almost
everything, but I thinkeverything we've spoken to has

(58:56):
been what the conversationshould have been about.
We are where we need to be.
So I love that.
I deeply appreciate that.
I'm grateful.
I do any questions you want tothrow in there, feel free.
Um, I'm still taking in which,what, what you were just talking

(59:18):
about.
Cause I'm taking it back to, uh,what's the movie, uh, is it
beloved?
No, it's not beloved.
Why am I think the color purple?
I'm pretty sure it was.
Yeah.
And like how she broughteveryone together in the woods
to laugh and cry and dance.

(59:38):
And all of that came through us,like all this, this gospel music
that all came through us andyes, it was it's put into
Christianity, it's put into allthose things, but it came
through us.
So that saying something isalways within us.
We created what we have alwaysbeen given.

(59:59):
Like these tools that feel notmeant for us in work, usually
not meant for us.
And we're meant to stifle us andwe have made such fucking
treasures.
Yes, absolutely.
Yes.
And in that power, that gospel,even gospel music in that power
that is harvested.
When we start, it's like areleasing of our pain, like an,

(01:00:22):
almost like it's a conjuring,you know, every hallelujah,
every thank you.
Every like gratitude and praise,every dance.
It is a conjuring of spiritualenergy that is sustaining and
filling us into overflow.
And it's like, we go out intothe world and are depleted.
But guess what?
When you come back, everybody,you have went to the club

(01:00:42):
Saturday night and you showed upSunday morning.
You still just needed to letsomething out.
You needed to, you know what I'msaying?
You needed to let something fillyou again because it is hard to
be in the world and be black.
It is hard to be in the worldand be queer and non-normative
and all these things.
And the church is like, this isa place you can come.

(01:01:03):
And I, and I always say that I,if I ever, you know what I'm
saying, wanting to share spacein a church, it wouldn't be
because I wanted to join it assome member or, you know, go
through some particularpractice.
I might not even stay for thesermon, but that prison worship
is just something that's just inme.

Speaker 5 (01:01:22):
Yeah,

Speaker 4 (01:01:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:01:32):
Right.
All the potty

Speaker 4 (01:01:37):
To get out this bowl.
I love to have like a churchthing.
Like without all that, like thatwould be amazing.
No.
Oh my goodness.
Yes.
Yes.
A friend of mine has been doinga thing, uh, called pandemic joy

(01:02:00):
and it's like invite only, butwe come together as family and
release things and sing songs.
And like, you know, hear fromsomeone in who has like a
message from the universe or aspiritual message that we need
for the week.
But it's not pulling from theBible is not pulling from some
patriarchal understanding of theworld is like, it's like today,

(01:02:24):
our spirits are exhausted.
Every person in the room gothrough and release, which you
need, you know, and we'll givethem room to talk about their
feelings and traumas and allthose things.
It's just like such a powerfulspace.
And I wish we had more spaceslike it,

Speaker 3 (01:02:41):
Get your joy, get your joy.
It's beautiful.
How that joy is not just what wedeem as like happiness, but it's
the deliciousness of it

Speaker 4 (01:02:51):
Being seen and being heard and being able to

Speaker 3 (01:02:54):
Cry or laugh.
All of that.
It seems as held within thatspace.

Speaker 4 (01:03:00):
Yes, that's right.
Love it.

Speaker 3 (01:03:05):
I do want to, um, come to one last question before
we kind of get into Yazzie andblackout masculine of being
assertive, um, and how you have,um, started practicing

(01:03:26):
assertiveness outside of, um,the behaviors of toxic
masculinity, because that's whatI'm learning now is like, how do
I find my assertiveness and not,um, not, you know,

Speaker 4 (01:03:43):
Reproduce the ways in which

Speaker 3 (01:03:45):
I've seen, you know, my dad or like other men do in
it.

Speaker 4 (01:03:49):
I mean, yeah.
How have you, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:03:51):
And how have you been learning and how have you made
space for yourself to kind oflike you were saying, like, I
fuck up.

Speaker 4 (01:03:57):
How have you made space for yourself to publicly
talk about the, well, when Ithink my upbringing itself, like
when you feel trapped for solong, you're not going to let
nothing or nobody, you know,limit you any longer.
And that's where I've foundmyself.
My curiosity is peaked beyondeven the space that we're

(01:04:20):
introducing a lot of the worldthrough to, um, to through
activism.
And you know, that's not, youknow, and even this, like, even
when I talk about myself in aparticular way, you know, there
are ways that socially thingswill be perceived.
You know, you could be seen asarrogant for saying that or
veins because you think you'rebeautiful or whatever other

(01:04:41):
things.
So I had to stop caring at theextent that I was caring.
I'll say, uh, what peoplethought of me?
You know what I'm saying?
I'm like, am I going to continueto reduce myself to the
standards I've been conditionedto believe are socially
acceptable?
Or am I going to continue toactively learn what being in

(01:05:04):
right relationship with myselfand community is or means?
Um, and also, you know, I, I'mvery honest and upfront about
who I am.
You know, I tell people all thetime, I'm not a nice person.
I'm kind, but I'm not nice.
I believe kindness is regard forpeople's humanity and niceness
is mostly what white people do,which is the performance of

(01:05:26):
kindness, but they'll go voteagainst you and vote for Trump
tomorrow.
You know what I'm saying?
But they'll stand in your faceand be like, hi, how are you?
You know, I ain't with all that.
I'm not nice.
Okay.
So please go somewhere withthat.
I don't want the false pretensesof higher socially.
It's supposed to interact withanyone because I want to, I want
you to treat me how you wouldtreat me behind closed doors

(01:05:48):
when nobody's looking.
And that's such a hard thingbecause the world is not that
honest.
And when I think about beingaggressive or assertive and all
those kinds of things, um, likeI said, masculine energy for me,
um, does a lot, a particular setof tools and resources.

(01:06:10):
And I don't believeassertiveness or even aggressing
aggression is, are like badcharacteristics or, um, or, um,
you know, even, I don't thinkthat they're terrible things to
have, but I think that when youtake more than you need or use
more than you need to in anygiven moment disregarding

(01:06:33):
people's humanity, abusing thatspace for power, all those
things.
That's when it becomes, uh, youknow, that toxicity and that
toxic culture.
And because masculinity has beenattached to men, you know, the
idea that men and that's, that'show we're conditioned to it's
like masculinity is attached tomen, but we're not holding men

(01:06:55):
accountable.
We're holding masculinityaccountable.
And that means everybody elsethat is also masculine.
You know what I'm saying?
So when I think about it, I'mlike, can we be with the space
of, um, how to be other thingsother than happy and sweet all
the time.
Unlike everybody, everybody doesnot know how to be that love and

(01:07:19):
light ass n***a all the time,you know?
So we feel other things.
Yes.
And when we feel other thingsit's like, where are the limits
that, that show us what peopleare satisfied with about us.

(01:07:41):
I'm like, what parts of me areyou satisfied with versus the
parts of me that you don't wantto know or be around?
Like, I'm not going to performfor you if I'm not doing well,
you'll know I'm not doing welland vice versa.
So when I think about thingslike assertiveness and things
like that, I'm like, that's howyou're powerful.
People do want you to be small,you know, especially lesser than
them.

(01:08:01):
Most of the time, that's, that'show we, you know, pull on each
other.
It's like a more valuable thanyou in some way, because we've
ranked, you know, who isvaluable and who isn't based on
that, that social conditioningof, you know, being top tier
whiteness, being most whitepeople, being most beautiful,
all of that.
And I'm like, when do we get toconstruct the world through our

(01:08:22):
gaze?
What does our gaze look like?
And so when I think of beingpowerful through masculine
energy or being assertive,things like that, um, I think it
needs to be accompanied by thecomplexity that we are also
tender and soft in so much else.
And that our power is not like,it's what you do with the power

(01:08:43):
of assertiveness that matters.
You know what I'm saying?
Like if you have I harmed you orare you, um, not prepared for
how powerful I am?
You know, like those arevaluable questions that I think
also have been abused.
So a lot of times we don't getto talk about them, you know
what I'm saying?
Um, and I think men have done alot of that damage for sure.

(01:09:06):
And that accountability needs tolook like the people who do, who
are in power or who have heldpower in a particular way.
Um, you know, showing up in thataccountability in the ways that
they manifest their, theirmasculinity, their, you know,
the power that they could soeasily yield.

(01:09:26):
And I want us to be able tounderstand the difference
between, um, someone, you know,being powerful in a particular
moment and abusive power.
So yeah.
Yes.

Speaker 3 (01:09:40):
And there's now there's so much vulnerability
and accountability inassertiveness.
Like yeah, you are lettingpeople know, you've kind of
started impinging on a boundary.
I have, let me restate thatboundary so that you can no
longer cross it.
So you are letting people knowyou have been, you know, you

(01:10:03):
feel some type of way.

Speaker 4 (01:10:06):
There's nothing wrong with that at all.

Speaker 3 (01:10:09):
Yeah.
At all.
And I, and as black people,

Speaker 4 (01:10:12):
When we start to,

Speaker 3 (01:10:16):
Um, you know, worked that muscle and that tool that
is naturally within us, likeanyone else it's seen as a
threat, um, it seen as overstep,like crossing out, like we're
not, we're not staying in ourplace.
Um, and then we are deemed adanger again, simply for, yeah.

(01:10:38):
Simply first, you know, creating, um, about laundry.
And I love the way you talkedabout it's when we start to
utilize those tools ofassertiveness, um, aggression.
And we were going to get intowhat we did, but like anger
specifically, um, to start toimpinge on other people's

(01:10:58):
boundaries and start using themto, to take up more space than
we need to take up, you know,that's when that, and that goes
for everyone that that's when itbecomes really toxic and, um,
for

Speaker 4 (01:11:14):
The collective good or even for our own good.
And so learning how to find thesweet spot within that is such,
um, it's hard.
It's just hard.
It's so hard.
And I think that's hard.
It takes, it takes, that's why Isaid it takes that kind of a
differentiation between, um,abusive power and understanding

(01:11:39):
of power, like centeringourselves in the power that in
the ways that we're powerful,you know what I'm saying?
Some of the ways that I'mpowerful, uh, another person
who, you know, has, you know,manifests or leans more toward
the divine feminine would, youknow, they'd be powerful in
different ways that I'mpowerful, but like that just
gives us diversity.

(01:11:59):
You know what I'm saying?
All these different things.
And I think about the differencebetween assertion and
aggression, I was like,aggression feels like, um, and I
want to, I want to be mindful ofdistinguishing that because
aggression is that forwardmotion of like distinguished in
power.
And though it doesn't alwayshave to be toxic because
sometimes you gotta push throughthe door when somebody just

(01:12:22):
literally won't, or you'recoming up against power,
especially, or won't respectyour boundaries or your humanity
and all that.
And assertion is like, I'm gonnalet you know, I'm not to be
fucked with aggression is like,you fucked with me.
So now here we are.
You know what I'm saying?
That like this thing, which twopower men so important.

(01:12:43):
Yes, absolutely.
Absolutely.
So you have been using the termright.
Relationship, um, quite a bitthroughout this chat.
Can you tell us what rightrelationship is and then get
into Yazzie and black girlmasculine?

(01:13:06):
I'm so much enjoying this.
Like any courses you have.
I love when, when I say rightrelationship, I mean, working
towards honest connection withthe people that you care about
that you consider community, um,uh, it means allowing ourselves

(01:13:29):
to come together in our mostpowerful ways and supporting
ourselves in the ways that wemight fall short or not always
know, um, how to be in those, inthose spaces.
You know?
Um, so when I think about rightrelationships, especially among
black people, I think about howwe all experienced a particular
kind of harm from whiteness,some of us different than

(01:13:51):
others.
And on that spectrum, we are alllike in a place where we should
be working toward what it meansto fortify black community and
black strength, um, whether itmeans supporting each other and
our children to making sure I Ldoes this straight, you know,
for the rest of their life, youknow what I'm saying?

(01:14:13):
So I feel really passionatelyabout constantly evolving with
community so that we can show upin ways that feel, um, and
manifest the strength of ourcommunities.
And that shit is hard because wedifferent as hell and black.
This is so diverse, you knowwhat I'm saying?
So it's hard and it doesn't feelgood when we have to open up to

(01:14:36):
spaces that, that don't alwaysalign with being politically
correct or whatever.
And that's why I'm like, we gotto create what our gaze looks
like in the middle.
It's like, I got to know who Iam against whiteness as a system
and a construct.
And I have to know who I am andhow I'm powerful outside of the
white gays.
I'm not trying to impress awhite man ever, like literally.

(01:14:57):
So, so in that, in that I thinkthat relationship is being able
to see ourselves and also seeourselves in proximity to how we
come up against and subordinatesystem.
Yes.
And then Yazzie is actually a,one of the ways that, you know,
one of the things I createdWalker black, real masculine

(01:15:19):
came first in 2016.
Um, it's a nonprofitorganization that centers
masculine, uh, women trans andnon binary people.
And specifically, because, youknow, at first I saw black girl
magic was popping back then.
One of the things I saw was likea very high fan, kind of a media

(01:15:42):
presence of a black girl magic.
And I'm like at the time, youknow, I saw a lot of my
community being like, damn, likeI don't see myself in it.
And I felt the same way.
I was like, I don't see myself.
Like, am I not also worthy ofthis kind of, you know, rolling
over black feminism.
Um, am I also a part of thecommunity that you want to

(01:16:05):
defend or support in this guy?
And so I created this platformnot to be divisive to it, but to
add nuance to the conversationof it.
And it's been really powerful.
Um, and we open up conversationsthat are specific to masculine
people because I do want, um,black masculine non-normative
people to know that ourmasculinities are valid and it's

(01:16:28):
not in proximity to male ones.
And that there is nuance in ourmasculinity that are, that also
doesn't exist, um, with peoplewho have proximity to power like
men.
So when, when I started to rollthis out, it was really
important to me to create aspace that allowed for the me
too, stories of black masculinepeople to talk about toxic

(01:16:50):
masculinity, to talk about how,because we're masculine and wear
certain clothes or whatever.
Um, the majority of dominantculture is that that doesn't
mean we don't also experiencesexual violence or experienced
certain harms, you know, comingup against and understanding the
structure of masculineprivilege, all these things.
So as I'm continuing to navigateit, my community has been so

(01:17:13):
exceptional and just beenrocking with me, you know, and
it's been a sweet, sweet time.
I'm just really grateful for howwe've continued to shape.
And re-imagine blackmasculinities, um, as a
community and try to create whataccountable masculinities can
look like.
And it's been beautiful.

(01:17:33):
And then the pandemic as apandemic kit, I sat at home and,
you know, wanted to create someclothes for myself because it's
hard to buy pants when yourwaist is a 28 and your hips, a
36.
And I'm like all this stuff.

(01:17:58):
So I started to randomly designsome like, um, some clothing and
then I posted it and then it wascrazy.
Everybody was like, yo, I paidfor that right now, blah, blah,
blah.
So I deleted the post and Ithought about it.
I was like, yo, I shouldn't do,I should make this like a
completely de gendered clothingline.

(01:18:19):
And that's how Yazzie was born.
I initially came up with thelanguage of Yazzie because
that's what I want to name mychild, my future child who
visits me often.
Uh, so it's such a sweet child.
Um, and when they visit me in mydream and just throughout the

(01:18:40):
day, you know, I set up emailsand I write them all the time
and just like, think of themoften.
And so I named the clothing lineafter them.
Um, and it's just been such areally sweet journey because I
want to pay more attention tobodies rather than, uh, men's
women's sections.
I'm like, I don't want to haveto go to a men's section any,

(01:19:02):
any more than a gay man probablywants to go to a women's section
to buy their clothes or whateverelse I'm like.
It don't have to be like that.
Like we should know by this,this day and age, we should know
that there are nuanced bodiesand that gender energies even
don't matter, don't discriminateon the bodies that they manifest
in.
So Jase was born and I rolledout preorders on the 29th and

(01:19:27):
10% of all sales will be goingto immediately onto black
families via cash payments, uh,um, that were impacted by
COVID-19 things like that.
Um, pre-orders end on the 12thand then we'll start rolling out
that information for people toapply and all of that.
So I feel really gratefuloverall for how the universe has

(01:19:50):
been used in me.
And I hope that I can continueto honor my platform and my
community, even as my platformgrows.
So I'm just eternally gratefulfor the opportunity.
Thank you for sharing.
I want to plug in

Speaker 3 (01:20:08):
The re-imagining black masculine future series
that you did, because that'swhat, I don't know how it came
to me though.
Like, Oh, I was like, make it,everyone wants to do it.
So I'll put a link to that forsharing the show notes.
Thank you so much.
That was, that was a reallyinspiring series.
And I'm actually about to uploadthe caption videos too.

(01:20:30):
So there'll be two plugins.
It'll be the, the one, theoriginal ones I did.
And then since I didn't haveaccess to the caption software,
then, which I will goingforward, I'm doing a second set
of videos that I'll be postingthis week on, um, on the actual,
like with captions.
So, you know, so that anyonelistening knows that they can

(01:20:50):
they'll have access for our, uh,hard of hearing community.
Yeah.
I, we we've, we've been talkingabout this since you two we're
like, how do we get the cachingsoftware?
So I'm going to have to hit youup.
Oh yeah.
Got you.
Definitely.
And thank you so much for thatplug.
That series was such a goodtime.
I had, I had so much fun as youcan see in the video.

(01:21:13):
It was such a great time.
Um, and I'm gonna put, um, thecash app background masculine in
the show notes and links topages, for sure, for sure.
Um, and this is the first, uh,this is the second season of
assessing community, but, um,this season we are doing a

(01:21:35):
bi-pod celebration giveaway.
So if you post on IgE and orFacebook, a picture of yourself,
um, with, uh, like with anythingto do with like what we talked
about today, um, and you tagblack girl masculine and FSC,

(01:21:55):
um, your handle will be put in adrawing for a copy of love and
rage by Lama Rado cause thatbook is, listen, y'all need it
because that we feel is validand we also need to sustain
ourselves.
And that book is so good fordoing both feeling the rage and
also survive in the rage.

(01:22:16):
Absolutely.
So, yes.
Please post a photo or like yourfavorite quote, just talking
about this particular episode.
I am so grateful that we didthis fallow.
Like you are such a great time.
Thank you for having me.
Yeah, absolutely.

(01:22:37):
And best of luck on Yazzie.
My, uh, my kiddo meets me too inthe spirit realm, so I, I see
you.
I see you Yazzie.
Thank you for joining us today.
Thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (01:22:51):
That's it?
Yo, that's our show big.
Thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:22:55):
It's a black dream escape for providing us with the
intro and outro music for seasontwo.
We sincerely love your work andhope comes to us

Speaker 2 (01:23:06):
All and big thank you to Vesta for producing our small
but mighty podcast.
This show is powered by thepeople made the abundance.
Come back to you and spread likewildfire seeds.
Community is a space to practicecollective healing.
We do this through workshops,body, and energy work, taro

(01:23:28):
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Speaker 1 (01:23:46):
Come, come, come [inaudible].