April 21, 2025 • 44 mins
Kevin Callan, the Happy Camper, returns to share the remarkable journey of publishing his 20th book – a children's story called "A Spark of Courage." After multiple rejections from major publishers who couldn't see the market for a book about nature helping anxiety in youth, Kevin took matters into his own hands with passionate determination.
The book follows Paul, an anxious pre-teen reluctant to embark on a canoe trip with his Uncle Roy. Through beautifully illustrated pages created by Cliff McArdle, we witness Paul's transformation from a nervous, screen-dependent kid to someone who embraces wilderness experiences. What makes the story unique is how woodland creatures secretly guide and teach both Paul and his uncle throughout their adventure.
Kevin's decision to self-publish reveals the changing landscape of publishing and the obstacles authors face when trying to share meaningful messages. From navigating print-on-demand services to dealing with third-party sellers attempting to list his unreleased book at inflated prices, the journey demonstrates how passion can overcome traditional gatekeepers. Though self-publishing means taking on all marketing and distribution responsibilities, it provides significantly higher royalties and creative control.
Throughout our conversation, Kevin shares insights from his decades teaching youth in outdoor settings: "We just have to take them in the woods for a long period of time and they become who they are. It's magical." This firsthand experience of nature's transformative power drives his mission to reach young readers struggling with anxiety in our increasingly digital world.
Whether you're a parent concerned about your child's mental health, an outdoor enthusiast, or someone curious about publishing alternatives, this episode offers wisdom, humor, and inspiration. Grab a copy of "A Spark of Courage" at Canadian Outdoor Equipment or your favorite retailer, and follow Kevin's upcoming adventures as he balances book tours with his beloved wilderness trips.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello and good day.
Welcome to the Super GoodCamping podcast.
My name is Pamela.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
I'm Tim.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
And we are from supergoodcampingcom.
We're here because we are on amission to inspire other people
to get outside and enjoy campingadventures such as we have as a
family.
Today's guest is a gentlemanwe've had the pleasure to chat
with multiple times on thepodcast on Canoe Hounds
Adventure Show and in person atthe Toronto Outdoor Adventure
Show.
He does wonderful presentationsat the adventure shows and he's
(00:25):
already booking some for nextyear, like the Hamilton
Adventure Expo.
He's a canoeing enthusiast andlover of all things camping,
plus the author of 20 books.
Please welcome, kevin Callen,aka the Happy Camper.
Hey, how you doing?
Welcome, hey, welcome, welcomeback.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Yeah, yeah, it's good to see you.
We saw each other at theToronto show.
You were probably there at theHamilton show, but I didn't see
anybody.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
I was so busy.
We saw you, you didn't see us.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Great presentation, but that show was nuts.
So many people showed up for it, which is why they're already
pre-booking Presenters.
They're going to be double thesize, two days all that sort of
jazz this year, which isfantastic.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
I think that's wonderful, and the best part of
that entire show was mydaughter's going to university
in Hamilton.
So she went there with herfriends and I knew that she
would, and so I did a minimontage of her on a canoe trip
when she was five, going acrossthe Gonquin Park and talking
about dragonflies, having sexand stuff and her roommates.
Yeah, she's like I'll kill youdad.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
That's the fun stuff when your kids get old enough to
be able to take that.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Embarrass the crap out of them.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Well of all fathers out there, just agree or
disagree.
That's my job, yes absolutely,absolutely, you bet.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
So recently I know again because we've had
conversations over the years, Iknow you've been working on a
book for ages Like I don't knowtwo years, three years.
It feels, feels like forever.
Tell us what the book is.
Then tell us the story of the,the concept, the kernel of an
idea, to all the, all the fun ofself publishing.
(02:15):
Yeah, how do we, how do we gethere for a spark of courage?
Speaker 3 (02:19):
all right, there it is there.
I just got it in the mailyesterday.
Fantastic, like incredible.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Super awesome.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Yeah, and what happened?
Well, I looked at it, where isit.
Where is it?
This is good.
Oh, there, look at it.
Okay, so there, there.
And then, if you look at thebear pooping in the other place,
really closely, he's reading mytop 70 kudu root book.
(02:47):
That's awesome, that's awesome.
And also, if you look at thecharacters, let me get to it,
let me get to it.
If you look at the care, oh,where are the characters?
Oh, wait a minute.
Oh, angel, stop drinking waterwhile I'm I'm on.
Oh, she's slurred.
All right, here are thecharacters.
They're the animal charactersthat help, uh, right, and try to
identify who's who of all mycamp buddies.
(03:08):
So, who's andy, who's tim andwho's, uh, sweetaman I would say
, andy is the bear yep, yep.
So who would be the smart fox?
That That'd be Tim.
It's not Ashley, for sure.
I'm telling you that right nowhe's a hyper nuthead and that's
(03:29):
the story.
That's Ashley, yeah, yeah, no,yeah.
So what was the question?
So how does this come to be?
So what happened is, cliffMcArdle was an aspiring
illustrator, worked on TV doinga bunch of things and stuff of
that, and big canoeist, lovetomogamy, love canoeing.
And randomly he just uh, sentme a um, a character of myself.
(03:53):
And I went why?
And he, he was just doing itfor fun.
He did one of Jim Baird, he didone of um of Adam Schultz, and
a bunch of other people wentthis is funny, and he had it on
on his Instagram.
So I went what's with this?
Well, you know, this is what Ido on my side, like I do
illustrations for a living onfor TV and stuff like that.
(04:14):
But I just, I love canoeing andI would do this.
Well, that's funny, that lookslike me.
And uh, then, during the cause,I actually called him up and I
said this is great.
And so what?
What's your?
You know, your, your crystalball, what you want to do in
life.
And he, what one idea was hewanted to always write a kid's
book about going off on a canoetrip and actually how going off
(04:40):
into nature helps cure anxiety.
And I went, whoa, that's likeoh, oh.
And I go that's fantastic, yourwork is phenomenal.
So, do you have a writer?
And he goes no, I can't write,I don't have a writer.
I went, you got a writer.
So I think that that idea isjust phenomenal and your work is
(05:01):
amazing.
So then I went off and startedokay, well, then I went to my
publisher, firefly, whichthey're great, I worked with for
many years and I gave them theconcept.
They really liked it, theyloved his work.
I mean, as soon as they saw hiswork, oh, this is good.
So we got the meeting Right.
And uh, but then we did the 36days of refusal.
It's in my contract.
So they, they were able to lookat it for that many days before
(05:23):
I can go to anywhere else.
And, uh, they did.
They, they worked really hardon it.
But then they said, yeah, Ijust don't get it.
Uh, I can't see this sellingabout a kid going on a canoe
trip and his anxiety being curedby being on a canoe trip.
Like, really okay.
And then I went to other people,even scholastic, which is one
(05:44):
of the biggest.
They looked at it.
This is really good work, thisis fantastic.
So we had the meeting.
That was really huge In a weekactually.
They actually had a meetingwith us and saying that you know
, close work is amazing.
Yeah, I just don't get theselling idea of a kid going off
into nature and helping hisanxiety.
I went really, and then a coupleother um, other um publishers,
(06:09):
and then I finally, I don't know, didn't know why, I still don't
know Cliff, but I didn't knowCliff.
I went Cliff, they're wrong.
This thing will sell likehotcakes and if it doesn't,
we'll actually change the world.
Okay, so you know what I'mgoing to make that happen.
I'm old enough and I'mconnected enough now in my life
to actually make my 20th book,again a self-published book, and
(06:32):
I've done it twice already.
And I created Kevin Callenbooks and I dove into the well,
here we go.
And then I decided to create aself-published book by print on
demand.
So I use IngramSpark before,which is an American company,
(06:52):
and at that time when thathappened, it was great right,
because they did a good job.
They did a great job.
But I said to Cliff I go, butwe need to go to a designer and
an editor and do itprofessionally.
And you know he's young and andwith all this he goes.
Well, gosh, it looks okay.
Now I went new, new, new, new,new, new, new.
(07:13):
And so Kathy Fraser, an editor Iworked with for many years
probably 30 years and also JillSteed, a designer that's amazing
, with her during the Bostonbills days with my old
guidebooks, and you know theygot involved and yeah, we went
from there and that processtakes a long time and poor Cliff
like he just thought this wouldhappen in a couple months I
(07:35):
went books don't happen a couplemonths.
This is why people don't writebooks.
And so he's learned a lot I'velearned a lot for the whole
process and then what happenedwas, um, they started designing
it and stuff like that, but thenall of a sudden you know the
whole trade wars start happeningwhen, all all of a sudden, I
was going to and I thought, geez, I'm gonna have to choose a
canadian, uh, print job.
(07:57):
And, um, I tried to and the onefor reasons was possible, but
they don't do print on demand.
But there's another companythat's similar to them, but
they're on the Better BusinessBureau like of like, don't go
near them.
So I was like well, I can't dothat.
So I went back to Ingram.
It was funny.
This is my first interview.
I haven't told any of thesestories to anybody except
(08:17):
Christine.
And what happened was I foundout that the print job is not
done in the United States.
It is printed where, whatevercountry you order it.
So if you're a Canadian and youorder the book, it's printed in
Winnipeg.
So I go oh, so it's just a PDFfile that's from the United
States.
So I'm okay with that.
So let's go for that.
So if you ever want to I'm justrambling here.
(08:39):
So if you want to publish abook on your own, this is
happens.
So we did that.
And sure enough, uh, you knowthere's a lot of things you
gotta when you do a kid's book.
You would think it'd be easy.
It's only like 46 pages and Ijust have to write the little
text.
It's done.
No, no, I've never worked sohard in my life on a book
because it has to be precise,right, um and uh, especially
(09:02):
when you look at illustrations,like, again, cliff is, but you
know, shadows and the lightinghas to be changed.
And then I went to go on myspeaking tour, starting in late
February.
I went the book needs to be outnow.
Now, right, I'm speaking toover 10,000 people in the next
next month and a half, and it'snot ready yet.
And so I went okay, just chill.
(09:23):
I went for a walk in the woods,just chill.
It all happened.
And then.
So we did that and finally wegot it out.
And then, sure enough, amazon'sinvolved, because, I hate to say
at the end of the day, I willdo everything possible to get my
book out into brick and mortarstores, and that's why I chose
Ingram, that that they believein that too, because you can
actually print through Amazon aswell.
(09:44):
But I don't believe that.
And but what happened with thatwas it's like, okay, well, to
do that, so you can tell I'mblabbing, I haven't talked to
anybody for a while.
And so what happened was okay,we'll do that, and then we'll
put it out.
And then, all of a sudden, it'sthank goodness, it printed on
demand.
You.
And all of a sudden, it's thankgoodness, a print on demand.
You put it out.
And, sure enough, cliff poorCliff sent me a note one night.
(10:05):
Yeah, I see, the proof wentthrough, and now it's for sale
on Amazon for $75.
What?
The book doesn't even exist,and the only anybody that knows
the release date that would beApril 14th, is me and Ingham
Spark.
So nobody else knows about that.
So why is someone on Amazon athird party selling it for $75
(10:31):
and saying its release date isApril 14th?
That's interesting.
You try to solve that issuebecause they're all like oh, I
don't know.
Yeah, they know.
So someone's paid someone tosomeone, to someone, and
everybody's in a panic becausesomeone has stole my book.
For two years of work, somescumbag company that actually
would not even sell you the book, like you will buy that book
(10:54):
for $75.
You would never, ever get it.
It doesn't exist.
Oh, no, right.
So, of course, how to stop that?
Contact Ingram.
Of course you have to wait forthem to respond.
Contact Amazon and they're likewell, it's a third party, we
can't do anything about it,they're allowed to do that.
I went they're allowed to dothat.
That's illegal, that's calledcopyright infringement.
Well, you're going to have toget a lawyer and have to prove
(11:15):
that actually that's your book.
And so I went to get a lawyer.
It's thousands of dollars.
I went are you kidding me?
And then I came.
I sort of again, went for awalk in the woods and said
nobody in the right mind isgoing to buy that book for $75.
And then I actually went onsocial media and my fans, they
went nuts on this company.
(11:35):
It was magical.
Instead of me saying you can'tdo this, all these people saying
you're corrupt, whatever, andthey shut it down because they
look bad.
So, thank you for all thepeople that did that.
And, um, actually, you know theone person that did really well.
Um, what's the dragonfly guy?
The guy that has the dragonflything in the head, like that?
No, no, the company.
(11:57):
Uh, oh, what's it called,christine?
What's the company called withthe dragonfly in his head?
Valley valley?
Yeah, the company that has adragonfly in his head, not Lee
Valley.
The company that has thedragonfly floating on your hat?
Wingman Wingman, he deals withthis all the time.
Hi, christine, they sent a noteand it was shut down.
(12:21):
All the people saying theycan't do anything.
It was shut down because they,yeah and like so.
All the people saying theycan't do anything.
It was shut down because they.
Look, they got caught rightwith the hand in the candy chair
how do they get all thatinformation?
Speaker 1 (12:32):
where do they get it from?
Like it has to come from the?
Speaker 2 (12:35):
publisher, maybe who I don't know.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
I don't know yeah, that's good.
Sorry to interrupt, I just Iknow let's just say print on
demand and self publishing isfantastic in one sense, and I'll
go over the good goods of it.
The bads is, if I had a realpublisher and that happened,
their lawyers would go afterthem, where now I'm the
publisher with no money and Icouldn't go after them, right,
(13:01):
because't?
Anyway, at the same time Iwrote a book with Cliff about a
high anxiety, right?
How ironic is that.
And the good thing is is thatwhy did they try to steal it?
I think that's important.
Let's go back to that.
(13:21):
I go to Cliff.
That must mean it's a gosh darngood book that will sell really
well, or they would never havestole it, right, if it was
something boring, as they wouldbe trying to sell it, right?
So, um, let's ride the stormjust like on a couldn't trip, or
let's let's do the portage, getit done and then go on from
that.
(13:41):
So everything seems to be fine.
The only thing right now is uh,amazon, canada, has it now for
sale.
They they posted it for 28something and it's a 1995 book
and when I put it in I madeevery country to sell it for
1995.
But they'll boost the price andyou can't stop that.
So what I did is is.
(14:02):
I contacted Tim at CanadianOutdoor Equipment.
I said you know, I'd ratherpeople buy the book off you than
Amazon.
I'm not knocking Amazon.
I'll probably make more moneyoff Amazon worldwide for this
book than ever.
But, be quite honest, like, howcan I fix this?
So he said yeah, and today heactually put it on his website
for sale for $19.95.
So you can buy that book inCanada for the right price, not
(14:25):
Amazon.
So that's a tough one, though.
Eh, like you try to doeverything right At the same
time you know, I'm not a fool.
I'll make more money off Amazon.
So, oh, I'm exhausted,Christine.
Was that okay?
Way to go, Kevin.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Thanks, honey.
Yeah'm surprised you.
You mentioned that scholasticyou.
You went and had a yak withthem and and they went.
We don't see it working.
I I'm like it hits me as it's ateaching thing.
It it's an inclusive thingbecause there are kids with
anxiety.
If this is a you know, if thisbecomes, if it's a tool to to
help I, I it's been a whilesince I've been in school and
(15:06):
buying scholastic books, butthat's that's kind of what they
were doing for us before.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
Well, here's the thing.
So I wonder that too.
But then I asked a lot offriends in the business and also
librarians and teachers, andthey said, here's the
interesting thing there's not alot of books on mental health
(15:32):
with kids.
There's a few.
There's some other unique booksout there that talk about other
things, but nothing.
They couldn't find one bookthat really specifically talks
about a canoe route or canoetrip, helping anxiety, and
therefore if I was scholasticand I was a business person,
they would do that search aswell and therefore they would
say, well, there's nothing outthere.
Why would we do this?
Why would we invest in this andbut?
But I know in my, my lifetimeand my people, I know, and
(15:54):
everything else, they're beggingfor this book.
Like, if you look at it,basically the book is based on
Paul, you know, and he goes on atrip with his Uncle Roy, and
Uncle Roy is not Kevin, uncleRoy is just an uncle that
actually wants to take himcanoeing.
He doesn't really want to teachhim anything, he just wants him
(16:15):
to experience it.
So it's just this figure ofUncle Roy saying well, geez,
paul, I think you should go on acanoe trip, and we have so many
Uncle Roys in our life.
Right, they don't know why Paulshould, should, go, they just
think that paul should go.
And then paul, you know, hesaid okay, like no, I, my phone
won't work.
Um, you know, uh, I'm worriedabout bears.
(16:36):
And then also throughout thebook there's little tidbits of
information about what gear theybrought, how to classify rapids
.
So it's that Kevin Happy Campersort of tips and tricks,
because it's made for ages 6 to12.
Right, so if you're thinking,if you're a scout leader, if
you're someone from Palo Canada,if you're a parent or guardian
(17:05):
of some kid that wants to showthem the tips and tricks but not
overwhelm them, yeah, so thenPaul goes on the trip and he's
not liking it at all, uh, andyou know, and typical, you know,
roy, uh, uncle Roy is fishingand Paul's doing all the work
We've seen that before and itrains and all, all the
misadventures happen along theway.
You look at, no, poor Paul isnot liking the bugs in the
(17:25):
portage.
And then Uncle Roy's likewhat's your problem?
Didn't you bring your bug spray?
And I won't go through thewhole book, oh, I love this part
.
And then they're on the portageand I have a bunch of etiquette
signs on the portage, and theone is no pooping on the portage
.
(17:48):
And I had some people read thisbeforehand and a little drier
humor than I have, and they'relike, yeah, that's not proper,
you should not put that.
No pooping on the portage.
I go, do you know kids?
Yes, that's the first thingthey're gonna laugh at.
They are gonna find it hilariousuh, jude, uh, christine's
grandson, he's like three goingon four, and I show him this
page.
It was like Finding Waldo,right, okay, show me the gear.
(18:08):
And I said where's the toiletpaper?
Boom, he found the toilet paper.
So yeah, but it goes on to.
They have this adventure andthey go through Atticus and all
of a sudden, you know they don'thang the food proper that whole
debate.
There's a whole bunch of hiddenmessages in this book, actually,
because I'm a little weird andthe animals get to the food.
(18:32):
But also, what's happening isUncle Roy is not teaching him,
it's the animal creatures thatare teaching the tips and tricks
without the kid knowing,without the uncle knowing.
It's all subconscious, right,but they're helping the humans
along because they're like youknow, this is our home and you
don't feel that you belong inthe home and we're going to show
(18:54):
you the tips and tricks byhalfway through the book.
The kid is loving it, he'scooking breakfast and uncle
roy's asleep, um and uh.
Then by the end, uh, you know,paul's like I love this, I don't
want to go home.
And during the time too, he alsomeets a whole bunch of camp
kids and he's wondering whythey're having so much fun.
And then he realizes is becausethey're all immersed in that
(19:19):
willingness.
They're, they're enjoying theirsurroundings where he's trying
to conquer or defend himself forit, and it's, it's all based on
that.
And then at the end, last pageI shouldn't show you the last
page, I guess but deep meaningis that you know they're there,
they are leaving and they're thecreatures saying see you later,
see you next year.
So it's the animal creaturesthat are teaching humans.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
You know, chill, man yeah well, and agreed like uh,
even if you're not a highanxiety person, I can tell you
you know what we've?
We, five years in, we've had anumber of discussions with with
all kinds of people about, aboutcamping and in, but certainly
(20:06):
my jam is jumping in a canoe andgoing far away Within a couple
of days, like you know, I'm sureblood pressure's down.
I don't actually check it.
I know my BPM is lower, I knowthat I'm breathing better, I'm
chill and I can be a little bitwound sometimes, but but but I'm
(20:31):
not.
I'm certainly.
I don't think I'm high anxietyabout anything, and yet it it
jumping in a canoe and havingthat experience, that nature
experience makes me totallychill and I hear that from all
kinds of people.
So that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Well, it makes total sense to everybody to be quite
honest, especially in our field,in our community, and I think
it's good, it's good for thesoul to sort of say you know,
you're wrong and I'll do itmyself, like I.
I, I've been along around thisworld so many times that I know
what's right and I know also,and poor, poor Cliff I, I've
been along around this world somany times I know what's right
and I know also, and poor poorCliff I.
(21:10):
When I I first met him, I wentwe need to talk about a few
things.
First of all, there's no moneyto be made in writing in Canada
for the outdoors, so okay, sowhy do you want to write this
book?
And he said the same thing.
He's on high anxiety too.
Well, I'm guessing, knowing him, and want to write this book.
And he said the same thing he'son high anxiety too well, I'm
guessing, knowing him.
And he just want to make adifference.
You know he's, he's marriedwith a small kid and he's
(21:31):
worried about the future of theworld, worried about wilderness.
He loves tomogami, worriedabout tomogami, and he wanted to
do something.
And uh, tonight, just after orjust before this uh interview, I
talked to him and showed himthe book because he hasn't got
it yet.
And yeah, that's his carrot.
We did this, kevin.
This is fantastic, and teachersare going to buy it, scouts are
(21:54):
going to buy it, granddads andgrandmothers are going to buy it
.
It's kind of cool, but it wasso funny I said so.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Here's the monies we put out and this is how long it
will take for us to get moniesback and uh, and he's all fine
with that no, I think it's anawesome message and I think, uh,
it is something like there's alot of mental health issues for
kids, especially in that agerange, especially with all
that's going on with socialmedia and pressure from parents
(22:30):
in school, and I think it'sgreat to have some outlet like
that and encourage them to havethat outlet.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
Yeah, I've seen this because I've taught for years.
But the last couple of decadesI've taught youth at risk right,
and we just have to take themin the woods for a long period
of time and they become who theyare.
It's magical, right.
And that's.
Paul Like the one thing aboutthat canoe trip the first few
days he still did not like, hedidn't want to be out there and
(22:58):
that's I've seen that.
But once he got the skill setand felt more comfortable and
laughing at things, at the endwe all deal with that.
You at the end you don't wantto go home.
Oh, you can't wait till yournext trip.
Why?
Because the portages are bad,the bugs are bad, there's bears
out there, of course.
You know comical, but yeah, atthe end those fears were gone
(23:19):
away because it became hisday-to-day life to be out there
with his uncle and the uncleportrayed of he didn't care
because he'd been out there fora long time.
So he's not the teacher, he'sjust the awareness of what's
your problem?
Like what's your problem.
I'm comfortable out here, youshould be as well.
And that's where the uncle wasAt first when we were writing
the book.
You know I was going to be theuncle and I was going.
(23:43):
Yeah, no, that's so typicalLike they can see that coming a
mile away.
Now, mind you, you will see mein the book.
I won't tell you where it is,but you'll see me.
So find Waldo, I'm in there.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
How old is Paul in?
Speaker 3 (23:59):
the book.
So 12, maybe 13, maybe going on14.
And it's tough to write a kid'sbook because you really do have
to get the age set because whenyou go to Indigo and sell your
books they're in rows of age.
So I learned so much writing akid's book.
It's a lot easier writing agood book, but, yeah, you have
(24:21):
to make a certain age.
And then we tested it withyouth.
So youth would read it and thenwe would judge who got it and
who didn't.
And that's that's where we wecame down to um, uh, six great,
or six years old to 12 year old,to was it?
Um, how old are you when youare in grade?
(24:42):
Oh no, I forget the age.
Christine, christine, what agewas it?
Age 6 to 12, and then grade?
Oh hey, it's on the back of thebook.
No, it's not Young kids, butnot kindergarten, yeah so grade
1.
And not grade 9.
They're too cool.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Even though they'll read the book, it's not cool for
them.
What was?
Yes, 15-ish for grade nine?
Yeah right, so up to middleschool I guess, you know what?
The book is written foreverybody.
Well, and that's the thing, oneof the things when I heard
again, because we've talkedabout it in bits and pieces over
(25:28):
over the course of a coupleyears I thought that'd be an
interesting book.
Like I'm going to buy it formyself, you know, and and there
are, I will I will probably readit, you know, give it.
There's parents in the buildingthat have have younger kids and
I'll probably end up donatingit to them to read it to their
kids, because their kids they'rethey're kind of outdoor
friendly type, like they like todo that sort of jazz.
(25:50):
So you know why not right?
but, I'm gonna read it myselffirst, that's good.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
I actually read it out loud this morning to myself
uh, because you, you work sohard on something so long, you
just you lose.
And it's a good storyline.
It really is.
Uh, it will.
It will sort of get everybodyengrossed in it.
And then what's going to happenat the end?
Yeah there's even a moosewearing a pfd.
(26:15):
Because, because that'simportant we like that message
too.
Yeah, I even have the a recipefor uh gor there.
So there they are doing rapidsand there's the moose, that's
excellent.
And then, of course, paul'snervous about running the rapids
(26:36):
.
He's like oh gosh, why are wedoing this?
And there they are.
Oh no, what if we dump?
What if we do this?
And then they do that.
And of course you have theclassifications of the rapids
too, so it's all the informationas well along the way.
And then they do that.
And then Paul's like let's dothat again, let's do it again.
(26:57):
I think I peed myself because Iwas so nervous, but let's do it
again.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
That's excellent.
That's excellent.
That's excellent, all right, soso you wanted to have it out
before the your previous tourthat you literally just finished
, right?
Yeah but you didn't.
So are you doing a, a book tour, an abbreviated, I assume?
Speaker 3 (27:22):
yeah, yeah I'm going to do some signings, so so can
you have your equipment is goingto do the launch.
Um, because you know, at leastI know tim and I said, look, I
don't know when this is comingout.
And I had to get this copy toprove it.
Yesterday too, like the bookwasn't coming out until I
actually saw this and said, okay, well, no, it's not, it's not
done proper.
And it finally it did.
And then he's like come on,come on, kevin, come, come on.
(27:43):
And so I said yeah, let's do it.
So, yeah, may 4th at his store,you can go there and get books
signed, and Cliff's going to bethere as well, which is really
important to me for him to bethere.
And then the other is I'm goingto do a bunch of libraries and
a bunch of other thingsafterwards.
The only problem is that's mycanoeing time, things afterwards
(28:09):
.
The only problem is is that'smy canoeing time and, uh, I was
going to do a huge solo uh tripfor brook trout, the the first
week in may and it's probablygoing to be a three night now
because I'm going to be on theroad.
But the book is more important.
Well, you know what?
No, isn't more important thanbrook trout, no, but find that
balance.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Do it.
Do it hit a library, go spendthree days.
Hit another library three moredays.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
I always even I even said to Christina so I'll do a
tour and then sleep in the caror sleep with my moms or my
sisters, whatever.
And I do want to go moretowards where Cliff lives.
He lives in SouthwesternOntario because this is his
first book, right, and I reallywant to make sure that we
emphasize around his area.
Yeah, I guess I remember that.
I remember my first book.
Yeah, he deserves everythingfor that.
(28:53):
So that'd be fun.
So I will post that for sure onsocial media.
It's all in the works.
I just have to sort of the nextcouple of days.
Yes, this is happening.
I do know I'm speaking at theMarlboro library on April 23rd.
I don't know if I'll have booksthere.
In theory I'll have books there, but I decided I won't speak on
(29:15):
the book.
I'll speak on the passaway trip, cause I I know I can do that,
but in theory I should havebooks there, but I'll let
everybody know the day before ifthey arrive.
So but yeah, I'm blabbing.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
No, no.
So make sure that listeners,you didn't get to see the pretty
pictures, unless you'rewatching this on YouTube.
So go watch us on YouTube forstarters.
Second, check out Kevin's, allKevin's social medias.
He's on Facebook, instagram.
What else, oh you do?
(29:49):
Fires, fireside chats and allthat sort of jazz on on youtube
as well, right?
Speaker 3 (29:52):
yeah, yeah, oh yeah, I love the fireside shows, in
fact, actually.
Well, you'll be on after thefact, but, um, next week I'm
interviewing, doing a whiskeychat with, um, uh, robbie brown.
Do you know him, the musicianfrom Thunder Bay?
Speaker 2 (30:07):
No, the name rings a bell, but I'm drawing a blank.
Speaker 3 (30:10):
Okay, well, he's famous and he sings all about
the North and canoeing, and oneof his favorites, my favorite
song is about the WendellBeckwith no, not Wendell, sorry
the White Otter Castle up North.
He has a song on that and BlackSpruce, and so I mean mean to
be quite honest, the whiskeyjazz I do.
Musicians don't get a lot ofattention when I do interviews
(30:32):
with them, um, but I love it.
I love it like, yeah, themusicians I've interviewed is
phenomenal and it's.
It's a bust too, because formonetization, because the moment
they sing, you know, youtubegoes well, there goes
monetization, but I don't, but Idon't care, I don't care, I
don't make a lot of money offYouTube, I don't care.
But the interview Robbie and IanTamblyn when I interviewed him
(30:54):
oh man, if you haven't seen it,go back and watch that interview
.
The guy is amazing, right, yeah, I reflect the other day when,
during the COVID breakdown orlockdown, whatever I was on my
own and everybody else was ontheir own and I interviewed a
lot of people, if you go back tothe amount of people I
interviewed during then, like itwas amazing, just because it
(31:16):
was all had to do zoom andvirtual.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Nobody had to do anything else.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
So you could just zoom in, yep.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
So what else have you got planned for trips this year
?
Speaker 3 (31:24):
A lot of trips.
I'm going back to Quebec.
Christine and I love Quebec.
We went to to do Lake Kibwalast year and so we're going in
June.
We're going to another parkCan't pronounce it, I don't
think I would yell at Christineto ask, but I don't think she
knows how to pronounce it, butit's, it's north of that, so
(31:45):
we're going back.
We loved it.
Lake kibwa was amazing.
Quebec's amazing culture isamazing.
People are amazing.
Uh, yeah, in a heartbeat, we'relike we're going back and I'm
doing, I am doing my, my, uh,agonquin spring trip, but it's
not until the end of may.
I could curse my buddy, actually, like all for what?
Almost 30 years, every singleyear, we'd be going for Mother's
Day week, right for a gong, fora brush out in the last couple
(32:06):
years.
Well, I'm going on a holidayand we're going to the, going to
Brazil, and I went.
Why, like what?
So then we have to go to theend of May, and we did that last
year and caught no fish.
We did last year, the yearbefore.
We caught no fish because we'rethere to it.
I mean, you think the end ofMay would be good, but it's not
you and we did that last yearand caught no fish.
We did the year before.
We caught no fish because we'rethere to it.
I mean you think the end of Maywould be good, but it's not.
You have to be there in earlyMay.
So anyway, we're still going onthe trip because we're having
(32:28):
fun.
The cool thing is so Mike Kipp'sson can't go this year, so we
needed an extra person.
So I asked Christine's son,jesse, to go, and Christine's,
like has no idea what he'sgetting himself into.
No, he doesn't know these guys.
(32:49):
Is Ashley going to bring hisspeedo?
Almost likely.
We'll see how that goes.
So that'd be fun.
And then Andy and I are planninga trip.
We're having a meeting in thenext couple of days.
He has some ideas, I have someideas.
I actually said he wanted to doanother surprise trip and I
finally had to say to him my guy, I cannot handle that again.
(33:12):
Maybe when we're 70, you can dothat for fun, but I cannot do
that again for my anxiety level.
So let's talk about a route andyou can choose the route.
I don't have to use the route,but I can't and this is a
personal thing, but my anxietycannot handle going off in the
far North not knowing wherewe're going and then getting
into trouble, right, um, I I ifyou watch that video there's a
(33:35):
lot of.
I broke down on that trip.
Um, you imagine being on thattrip where there's forest fires
all around you.
You're actually 250 kilometersaway from everybody.
The float plane is a two hourand two and a half hour flight
and there's no way the plane canland in in those those ponds,
even to get you, and we actuallytraveled like like six days.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
We travel four kilometers to cut our way
through the bush I know thoseportages, or or lack of portages
, were brutal man no, I'm notdoing that again.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
I I people say, well, how do you survive out there?
Because I'm not.
My mom, my mom always say she'sgot, just didn't be stupid okay
, mom, good advice well, she'sright.
Yeah, so anyway, uh, yeah, loveandy to death.
And and I think it was a greatidea what he did I just it's
just a personal thing my anxiety, um, as you probably tell in
(34:31):
the video, uh, was super high,and how I got through,
personally, is bush time.
I actually knew I could getthrough.
Christina said that to meyesterday.
Um, well, you, you know you'dbe fine.
I mean, it's not your firstrodeo.
Uh, yeah, and she's right.
Actually, that that's I.
I sort of.
There's a certain part of thetrip I go well, I know how to
(34:53):
cut bush, I know how to camp, Iknow how to canoe, even though
I'm old and I'm sore, and thenmy, my brain kicked in and my
body just gave away, cause, it'slike you know, you forgot about
the hurt until you got home andthen you really hurt, right,
but when my knee went under thecanoe and just bent out like I
was just high on meds the entiretrip, so until I got home.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
So yeah, good fun.
I know all about bodies bailingout on you mid-portage, but
thankfully I tandem and makesure that I bring along a very
tall, strong kid that can carrythe stuff.
Speaker 3 (35:29):
Oh, that's right.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Yeah, is the book available for pre-sale?
I know this will air on the21st of April, so the book will
already have been out for oneweek.
I will do a short at some point.
Is there a presale thing?
Speaker 3 (35:46):
Yeah, the presale is actually now.
You can order it right now,which is whatever day this is.
It's like two weeks from thedate you're saying it's released
on April 14th, so that meansactually it has to get printed.
So that takes a good five days,so you're not going to get the
book the next day, um, but it'sallowed to be printed and that's
(36:08):
just the thing I did.
I said, look, you're notputting this book out without me
having a look at it.
Like, I can look at it, um, onPDF file on the computer and the
printer says this is okay andyeah, on the computer and the
printer says this is okay andyeah, um, so, yeah, um, it's.
Some people are saying, well,it's not hardcover, it should be
(36:29):
hardcover, it's too soft,whatever.
Well, it all depends.
Like it's it's glossy cover andmatte finish, whatever.
And I I chose all those becausethe designer jill I've known
for years.
She goes well, this is what youwant to get for the money and,
for example, this is one of myfavorite kids books.
If you haven't got this, getthis.
And the guy's amazing, all fourseasons of a trip on his
(36:52):
artwork and that's incredible.
But it's hardcover withactually a dust cover.
It costs you a fortune, likeyou'd have to go through a
publisher for that, like Icouldn't afford to do that.
So we, you know, we did thesoft cover, which actually a lot
of kids books majority of themwere like this nowadays um,
especially for a story like that.
So it just it comes down to youknow, kevin callen books
(37:15):
doesn't have the money to dosomething.
That's thousands, thousands ofdollars.
So, yeah, uh, forself-publishing, for the
advantages of it, of it.
So, if you know, let's startwith the disadvantages.
If you're self-published, somepeople would say, well, you're
not real, a real writer ifyou're self-published, because
anybody could be self-publishedand that's true, actually,
anybody could actually go to oneof those printing companies and
(37:36):
and actually do their own book.
Um, sandy mode at cbc radiofriday morning sun uh, I
wouldn't.
Yeah, I don't know him becauseof friday mo, I just know him as
sandy.
He's a good friend of mine andhe goes, kevin, like you don't
have to, you don't have to worryabout that.
You, you have, this is your20th book.
You've, you've already provenyourself.
So he goes.
(37:57):
But your publisher, I make eightpercent royalty on all my other
books, my guidebooks, 8%, andthen I have to wait for that
royalty if I get it right,because everybody's all you know
you're going to get paid.
If I self-publish, if I sell itmyself and actually sell it at
a book signing, I get 70%royalty.
It's a huge difference Big time, and I should.
(38:21):
I do all the work Like apublisher in theory.
In the old days did all thework.
They did marketing, they diddistribution and they did.
But really, who goes to all theshows?
Do you see my publisher atthose shows when you're with me?
No Distribution, how do thosefolks get there?
I ordered them right.
So sandy goes, we'll do it.
And then so the last two booksthe once around agonquin and
(38:44):
also the uh, another bend in theriver was self-published and
yeah, I didn't sell as many butI actually made money right, um,
but you have to invest in it.
You have to do it proper.
And here's the thing thateverybody should know for self
publishing you have to do itproper.
You don't get your grandmotheror your mother to edit unless
they're an editor, but you don'tget them to do it, you need a
professional.
(39:05):
And Kathy Fraser and Jill Seedactually did that and I know
them.
And yes, that cost me money andI told Cliff, like we have to
invest money, and then that madea huge difference because you
know, we thought all thespelling mistakes were done and
we gave it to Kathy.
She found 43 of them.
So you do that.
But at the end of the time it'sstill a lot of work and that
(39:27):
means now the book is out andnow we still have to go on the
road and promote it.
But if a store sells it, likeCanada Equipment or Amazon, I
make 40%, not 8%.
So I still make more, right?
Yeah, it's one of those thingsthat's yin and yang, right?
Speaker 2 (39:46):
Yep, does Cliff go on the tour with you, like on the
road for any of these he isdoing some.
Speaker 3 (39:54):
He's got a family of a young kid.
He also is I shouldn't tell you.
Well, he'll tell you he's verynervous.
He showed up the Hamilton showand saw me talking to everybody
and then I talked to him thatnight he goes, yeah.
I know, but he will be there.
He will be there for some ofthe good, solid ones too, and I
(40:14):
don't expect him to to be going,as I'm so hyper, I don't expect
him to keep up with me.
Him to to be going, as I'm sohyper, um, I don't expect him to
keep up with me, uh.
So, um, yeah, he's good at whathe does illustration and I'm
good at what I do.
So, yeah, uh, yeah, I, it's sofunny to to see him at the
hamilton show.
I was talking to people and Ihad a lot of people and then I
saw him to my left and I feltbad because I couldn't talk to
(40:36):
him because I was talking.
And then I phoned him and hegoes no, kevin, I'm not doing
that which is fine, becausewe're all.
We're all different, right weare.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
I can.
I can do this, but to stand infront of a crowd of people I
would just be a big thing ofsweat and melty goo on the stage
.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
That I couldn't yeah yeah, I can't do it, you're in
the headlights.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
He'd be uh you know, here I'll tell you a story just
to finish this off um, uh forenlightenment for everybody.
So, uh, evan's uh traversingshow at the uh canoe museum, um,
right last week, but it won'tbe last.
We're talking about we're.
But, yeah, he needed one morepresenter and didn't know who
(41:20):
and I said chris prowse.
Uh, for the meanest link, right, and he goes really like, would
she even talk?
I went, I don't know, likeshe's never presented before,
but I know her really quite well.
She actually lives down theroad.
Yeah, so we communicated andshe was hesitant and she called
me and we had a really good talkon the phone and, um, I said,
well, I really think you'll doan amazing job.
(41:40):
Like, you have no problem withpresenting, even though you
never presented before.
But what do you present?
Will present on and and.
So if you haven't seen it, goto um, evan has the, the feed
that he did.
He did um online as well andnow he posts that so you can
watch.
Her presentation blew everybodyaway.
(42:00):
It's the best presentation.
I shouldn't say that, but I'msaying it right now.
It's the best presentation theentire day, right, um, because
she talked about, she showed.
This is what people that being,some men thought of us that her
and julia um being online andshe showed comments made about
they should be home in thekitchen.
(42:22):
They don't belong out there andthings like that, and that's
why they disappeared.
If you want to know why ChrisProuse disappeared off social
media for a while, that's whyshe said I'm done.
And then that's why they didthe meanest link and then did
the meanest link again, and thendid it again and then kept
beating their previous records.
(42:42):
Yeah the record and throw them,mike, down, like, yeah, you
might disagree with what they do, is they go as fast as possible
, whatever.
But she actually talked aboutthat at the end as well and
saying, well, but that is whatwe do, that is our calmness,
we're marathon people like youdon't have to do what we do, but
this is what we do.
And she made really, sheexplained it really quite well
(43:04):
and you could tell she wasnervous for the first two
minutes and after that she heldthe floor and I got to say, man,
that was awesome.
So, being nervous, you couldsay, look, you read my memoir.
I was the most.
Well, I'm still a nervousperson.
But to go from not even tospeak a word in high school with
(43:24):
a stuttering impediment toactually doing all these shows
now why it's motivation to makea change in life, to make a
change in wilderness protection,and if I have to do that, to
get on stage, I'll do it.
But when I get home, christine,am I quiet?
When I get home, I just wokeher up.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
All right.
Well, we're going to let you goget in heck for that, okay.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
That's it for us for today.
Thank you so much to KevinCallum.
Please check him out.
He's on Instagram, youtube allthe things as Casey Happy Camper
.
Right, yes, yes, so check himout.
Please do check out A Spark ofCourage, kevin Cowan's new book,
children's book.
We'll be ordering one forourselves and please do check us
(44:12):
out while you're on all thethings.
Please do email us.
We are at hi atsupergoodcampingcom.
That's hi atsupergoodcampingcom.
We'll talk to you again soon.
Hello and good day.
Welcome to the Super GoodCamping podcast.
My name is Pamela.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
I'm Tim.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
And we are from supergoodcampingcom.
We're here because we are on amission to inspire other people
to get outside and enjoy campingadventures such as we have as a
family.
Today's guest is a gentlemanwe've had the pleasure to chat
with multiple times on thepodcast on Canoe Hounds
Adventure Show and in person atthe Toronto Outdoor Adventure
Show.
He does wonderful presentationsat the adventure shows and he's
(00:25):
already booking some for nextyear, like the Hamilton
Adventure Expo.
He's a canoeing enthusiast andlover of all things camping,
plus the author of 20 books.
Please welcome, kevin Callen,aka the Happy Camper.
Hey, how you doing?
Welcome, hey, welcome, welcomeback.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Yeah, yeah, it's good to see you.
We saw each other at theToronto show.
You were probably there at theHamilton show, but I didn't see
anybody.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
I was so busy.
We saw you, you didn't see us.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Great presentation, but that show was nuts.
So many people showed up for it, which is why they're already
pre-booking Presenters.
They're going to be double thesize, two days all that sort of
jazz this year, which isfantastic.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
I think that's wonderful, and the best part of
that entire show was mydaughter's going to university
in Hamilton.
So she went there with herfriends and I knew that she
would, and so I did a minimontage of her on a canoe trip
when she was five, going acrossthe Gonquin Park and talking
about dragonflies, having sexand stuff and her roommates.
Yeah, she's like I'll kill youdad.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
That's the fun stuff when your kids get old enough to
be able to take that.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Embarrass the crap out of them.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Well of all fathers out there, just agree or
disagree.
That's my job, yes absolutely,absolutely, you bet.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
So recently I know again because we've had
conversations over the years, Iknow you've been working on a
book for ages Like I don't knowtwo years, three years.
It feels, feels like forever.
Tell us what the book is.
Then tell us the story of the,the concept, the kernel of an
idea, to all the, all the fun ofself publishing.
(02:15):
Yeah, how do we, how do we gethere for a spark of courage?
Speaker 3 (02:19):
all right, there it is there.
I just got it in the mailyesterday.
Fantastic, like incredible.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Super awesome.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Yeah, and what happened?
Well, I looked at it, where isit.
Where is it?
This is good.
Oh, there, look at it.
Okay, so there, there.
And then, if you look at thebear pooping in the other place,
really closely, he's reading mytop 70 kudu root book.
(02:47):
That's awesome, that's awesome.
And also, if you look at thecharacters, let me get to it,
let me get to it.
If you look at the care, oh,where are the characters?
Oh, wait a minute.
Oh, angel, stop drinking waterwhile I'm I'm on.
Oh, she's slurred.
All right, here are thecharacters.
They're the animal charactersthat help, uh, right, and try to
identify who's who of all mycamp buddies.
(03:08):
So, who's andy, who's tim andwho's, uh, sweetaman I would say
, andy is the bear yep, yep.
So who would be the smart fox?
That That'd be Tim.
It's not Ashley, for sure.
I'm telling you that right nowhe's a hyper nuthead and that's
(03:29):
the story.
That's Ashley, yeah, yeah, no,yeah.
So what was the question?
So how does this come to be?
So what happened is, cliffMcArdle was an aspiring
illustrator, worked on TV doinga bunch of things and stuff of
that, and big canoeist, lovetomogamy, love canoeing.
And randomly he just uh, sentme a um, a character of myself.
(03:53):
And I went why?
And he, he was just doing itfor fun.
He did one of Jim Baird, he didone of um of Adam Schultz, and
a bunch of other people wentthis is funny, and he had it on
on his Instagram.
So I went what's with this?
Well, you know, this is what Ido on my side, like I do
illustrations for a living onfor TV and stuff like that.
(04:14):
But I just, I love canoeing andI would do this.
Well, that's funny, that lookslike me.
And uh, then, during the cause,I actually called him up and I
said this is great.
And so what?
What's your?
You know, your, your crystalball, what you want to do in
life.
And he, what one idea was hewanted to always write a kid's
book about going off on a canoetrip and actually how going off
(04:40):
into nature helps cure anxiety.
And I went, whoa, that's likeoh, oh.
And I go that's fantastic, yourwork is phenomenal.
So, do you have a writer?
And he goes no, I can't write,I don't have a writer.
I went, you got a writer.
So I think that that idea isjust phenomenal and your work is
(05:01):
amazing.
So then I went off and startedokay, well, then I went to my
publisher, firefly, whichthey're great, I worked with for
many years and I gave them theconcept.
They really liked it, theyloved his work.
I mean, as soon as they saw hiswork, oh, this is good.
So we got the meeting Right.
And uh, but then we did the 36days of refusal.
It's in my contract.
So they, they were able to lookat it for that many days before
(05:23):
I can go to anywhere else.
And, uh, they did.
They, they worked really hardon it.
But then they said, yeah, Ijust don't get it.
Uh, I can't see this sellingabout a kid going on a canoe
trip and his anxiety being curedby being on a canoe trip.
Like, really okay.
And then I went to other people,even scholastic, which is one
(05:44):
of the biggest.
They looked at it.
This is really good work, thisis fantastic.
So we had the meeting.
That was really huge In a weekactually.
They actually had a meetingwith us and saying that you know
, close work is amazing.
Yeah, I just don't get theselling idea of a kid going off
into nature and helping hisanxiety.
I went really, and then a coupleother um, other um publishers,
(06:09):
and then I finally, I don't know, didn't know why, I still don't
know Cliff, but I didn't knowCliff.
I went Cliff, they're wrong.
This thing will sell likehotcakes and if it doesn't,
we'll actually change the world.
Okay, so you know what I'mgoing to make that happen.
I'm old enough and I'mconnected enough now in my life
to actually make my 20th book,again a self-published book, and
(06:32):
I've done it twice already.
And I created Kevin Callenbooks and I dove into the well,
here we go.
And then I decided to create aself-published book by print on
demand.
So I use IngramSpark before,which is an American company,
(06:52):
and at that time when thathappened, it was great right,
because they did a good job.
They did a great job.
But I said to Cliff I go, butwe need to go to a designer and
an editor and do itprofessionally.
And you know he's young and andwith all this he goes.
Well, gosh, it looks okay.
Now I went new, new, new, new,new, new, new.
(07:13):
And so Kathy Fraser, an editor Iworked with for many years
probably 30 years and also JillSteed, a designer that's amazing
, with her during the Bostonbills days with my old
guidebooks, and you know theygot involved and yeah, we went
from there and that processtakes a long time and poor Cliff
like he just thought this wouldhappen in a couple months I
(07:35):
went books don't happen a couplemonths.
This is why people don't writebooks.
And so he's learned a lot I'velearned a lot for the whole
process and then what happenedwas, um, they started designing
it and stuff like that, but thenall of a sudden you know the
whole trade wars start happeningwhen, all all of a sudden, I
was going to and I thought, geez, I'm gonna have to choose a
canadian, uh, print job.
(07:57):
And, um, I tried to and the onefor reasons was possible, but
they don't do print on demand.
But there's another companythat's similar to them, but
they're on the Better BusinessBureau like of like, don't go
near them.
So I was like well, I can't dothat.
So I went back to Ingram.
It was funny.
This is my first interview.
I haven't told any of thesestories to anybody except
(08:17):
Christine.
And what happened was I foundout that the print job is not
done in the United States.
It is printed where, whatevercountry you order it.
So if you're a Canadian and youorder the book, it's printed in
Winnipeg.
So I go oh, so it's just a PDFfile that's from the United
States.
So I'm okay with that.
So let's go for that.
So if you ever want to I'm justrambling here.
(08:39):
So if you want to publish abook on your own, this is
happens.
So we did that.
And sure enough, uh, you knowthere's a lot of things you
gotta when you do a kid's book.
You would think it'd be easy.
It's only like 46 pages and Ijust have to write the little
text.
It's done.
No, no, I've never worked sohard in my life on a book
because it has to be precise,right, um and uh, especially
(09:02):
when you look at illustrations,like, again, cliff is, but you
know, shadows and the lightinghas to be changed.
And then I went to go on myspeaking tour, starting in late
February.
I went the book needs to be outnow.
Now, right, I'm speaking toover 10,000 people in the next
next month and a half, and it'snot ready yet.
And so I went okay, just chill.
(09:23):
I went for a walk in the woods,just chill.
It all happened.
And then.
So we did that and finally wegot it out.
And then, sure enough, amazon'sinvolved, because, I hate to say
at the end of the day, I willdo everything possible to get my
book out into brick and mortarstores, and that's why I chose
Ingram, that that they believein that too, because you can
actually print through Amazon aswell.
(09:44):
But I don't believe that.
And but what happened with thatwas it's like, okay, well, to
do that, so you can tell I'mblabbing, I haven't talked to
anybody for a while.
And so what happened was okay,we'll do that, and then we'll
put it out.
And then, all of a sudden, it'sthank goodness, it printed on
demand.
You.
And all of a sudden, it's thankgoodness, a print on demand.
You put it out.
And, sure enough, cliff poorCliff sent me a note one night.
(10:05):
Yeah, I see, the proof wentthrough, and now it's for sale
on Amazon for $75.
What?
The book doesn't even exist,and the only anybody that knows
the release date that would beApril 14th, is me and Ingham
Spark.
So nobody else knows about that.
So why is someone on Amazon athird party selling it for $75
(10:31):
and saying its release date isApril 14th?
That's interesting.
You try to solve that issuebecause they're all like oh, I
don't know.
Yeah, they know.
So someone's paid someone tosomeone, to someone, and
everybody's in a panic becausesomeone has stole my book.
For two years of work, somescumbag company that actually
would not even sell you the book, like you will buy that book
(10:54):
for $75.
You would never, ever get it.
It doesn't exist.
Oh, no, right.
So, of course, how to stop that?
Contact Ingram.
Of course you have to wait forthem to respond.
Contact Amazon and they're likewell, it's a third party, we
can't do anything about it,they're allowed to do that.
I went they're allowed to dothat.
That's illegal, that's calledcopyright infringement.
Well, you're going to have toget a lawyer and have to prove
(11:15):
that actually that's your book.
And so I went to get a lawyer.
It's thousands of dollars.
I went are you kidding me?
And then I came.
I sort of again, went for awalk in the woods and said
nobody in the right mind isgoing to buy that book for $75.
And then I actually went onsocial media and my fans, they
went nuts on this company.
(11:35):
It was magical.
Instead of me saying you can'tdo this, all these people saying
you're corrupt, whatever, andthey shut it down because they
look bad.
So, thank you for all thepeople that did that.
And, um, actually, you know theone person that did really well.
Um, what's the dragonfly guy?
The guy that has the dragonflything in the head, like that?
No, no, the company.
(11:57):
Uh, oh, what's it called,christine?
What's the company called withthe dragonfly in his head?
Valley valley?
Yeah, the company that has adragonfly in his head, not Lee
Valley.
The company that has thedragonfly floating on your hat?
Wingman Wingman, he deals withthis all the time.
Hi, christine, they sent a noteand it was shut down.
(12:21):
All the people saying theycan't do anything.
It was shut down because they,yeah and like so.
All the people saying theycan't do anything.
It was shut down because they.
Look, they got caught rightwith the hand in the candy chair
how do they get all thatinformation?
Speaker 1 (12:32):
where do they get it from?
Like it has to come from the?
Speaker 2 (12:35):
publisher, maybe who I don't know.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
I don't know yeah, that's good.
Sorry to interrupt, I just Iknow let's just say print on
demand and self publishing isfantastic in one sense, and I'll
go over the good goods of it.
The bads is, if I had a realpublisher and that happened,
their lawyers would go afterthem, where now I'm the
publisher with no money and Icouldn't go after them, right,
(13:01):
because't?
Anyway, at the same time Iwrote a book with Cliff about a
high anxiety, right?
How ironic is that.
And the good thing is is thatwhy did they try to steal it?
I think that's important.
Let's go back to that.
(13:21):
I go to Cliff.
That must mean it's a gosh darngood book that will sell really
well, or they would never havestole it, right, if it was
something boring, as they wouldbe trying to sell it, right?
So, um, let's ride the stormjust like on a couldn't trip, or
let's let's do the portage, getit done and then go on from
that.
(13:41):
So everything seems to be fine.
The only thing right now is uh,amazon, canada, has it now for
sale.
They they posted it for 28something and it's a 1995 book
and when I put it in I madeevery country to sell it for
1995.
But they'll boost the price andyou can't stop that.
So what I did is is.
(14:02):
I contacted Tim at CanadianOutdoor Equipment.
I said you know, I'd ratherpeople buy the book off you than
Amazon.
I'm not knocking Amazon.
I'll probably make more moneyoff Amazon worldwide for this
book than ever.
But, be quite honest, like, howcan I fix this?
So he said yeah, and today heactually put it on his website
for sale for $19.95.
So you can buy that book inCanada for the right price, not
(14:25):
Amazon.
So that's a tough one, though.
Eh, like you try to doeverything right At the same
time you know, I'm not a fool.
I'll make more money off Amazon.
So, oh, I'm exhausted,Christine.
Was that okay?
Way to go, Kevin.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Thanks, honey.
Yeah'm surprised you.
You mentioned that scholasticyou.
You went and had a yak withthem and and they went.
We don't see it working.
I I'm like it hits me as it's ateaching thing.
It it's an inclusive thingbecause there are kids with
anxiety.
If this is a you know, if thisbecomes, if it's a tool to to
help I, I it's been a whilesince I've been in school and
(15:06):
buying scholastic books, butthat's that's kind of what they
were doing for us before.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
Well, here's the thing.
So I wonder that too.
But then I asked a lot offriends in the business and also
librarians and teachers, andthey said, here's the
interesting thing there's not alot of books on mental health
(15:32):
with kids.
There's a few.
There's some other unique booksout there that talk about other
things, but nothing.
They couldn't find one bookthat really specifically talks
about a canoe route or canoetrip, helping anxiety, and
therefore if I was scholasticand I was a business person,
they would do that search aswell and therefore they would
say, well, there's nothing outthere.
Why would we do this?
Why would we invest in this andbut?
But I know in my, my lifetimeand my people, I know, and
(15:54):
everything else, they're beggingfor this book.
Like, if you look at it,basically the book is based on
Paul, you know, and he goes on atrip with his Uncle Roy, and
Uncle Roy is not Kevin, uncleRoy is just an uncle that
actually wants to take himcanoeing.
He doesn't really want to teachhim anything, he just wants him
(16:15):
to experience it.
So it's just this figure ofUncle Roy saying well, geez,
paul, I think you should go on acanoe trip, and we have so many
Uncle Roys in our life.
Right, they don't know why Paulshould, should, go, they just
think that paul should go.
And then paul, you know, hesaid okay, like no, I, my phone
won't work.
Um, you know, uh, I'm worriedabout bears.
(16:36):
And then also throughout thebook there's little tidbits of
information about what gear theybrought, how to classify rapids
.
So it's that Kevin Happy Campersort of tips and tricks,
because it's made for ages 6 to12.
Right, so if you're thinking,if you're a scout leader, if
you're someone from Palo Canada,if you're a parent or guardian
(17:05):
of some kid that wants to showthem the tips and tricks but not
overwhelm them, yeah, so thenPaul goes on the trip and he's
not liking it at all, uh, andyou know, and typical, you know,
roy, uh, uncle Roy is fishingand Paul's doing all the work
We've seen that before and itrains and all, all the
misadventures happen along theway.
You look at, no, poor Paul isnot liking the bugs in the
(17:25):
portage.
And then Uncle Roy's likewhat's your problem?
Didn't you bring your bug spray?
And I won't go through thewhole book, oh, I love this part
.
And then they're on the portageand I have a bunch of etiquette
signs on the portage, and theone is no pooping on the portage
.
(17:48):
And I had some people read thisbeforehand and a little drier
humor than I have, and they'relike, yeah, that's not proper,
you should not put that.
No pooping on the portage.
I go, do you know kids?
Yes, that's the first thingthey're gonna laugh at.
They are gonna find it hilariousuh, jude, uh, christine's
grandson, he's like three goingon four, and I show him this
page.
It was like Finding Waldo,right, okay, show me the gear.
(18:08):
And I said where's the toiletpaper?
Boom, he found the toilet paper.
So yeah, but it goes on to.
They have this adventure andthey go through Atticus and all
of a sudden, you know they don'thang the food proper that whole
debate.
There's a whole bunch of hiddenmessages in this book, actually,
because I'm a little weird andthe animals get to the food.
(18:32):
But also, what's happening isUncle Roy is not teaching him,
it's the animal creatures thatare teaching the tips and tricks
without the kid knowing,without the uncle knowing.
It's all subconscious, right,but they're helping the humans
along because they're like youknow, this is our home and you
don't feel that you belong inthe home and we're going to show
(18:54):
you the tips and tricks byhalfway through the book.
The kid is loving it, he'scooking breakfast and uncle
roy's asleep, um and uh.
Then by the end, uh, you know,paul's like I love this, I don't
want to go home.
And during the time too, he alsomeets a whole bunch of camp
kids and he's wondering whythey're having so much fun.
And then he realizes is becausethey're all immersed in that
(19:19):
willingness.
They're, they're enjoying theirsurroundings where he's trying
to conquer or defend himself forit, and it's, it's all based on
that.
And then at the end, last pageI shouldn't show you the last
page, I guess but deep meaningis that you know they're there,
they are leaving and they're thecreatures saying see you later,
see you next year.
So it's the animal creaturesthat are teaching humans.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
You know, chill, man yeah well, and agreed like uh,
even if you're not a highanxiety person, I can tell you
you know what we've?
We, five years in, we've had anumber of discussions with with
all kinds of people about, aboutcamping and in, but certainly
(20:06):
my jam is jumping in a canoe andgoing far away Within a couple
of days, like you know, I'm sureblood pressure's down.
I don't actually check it.
I know my BPM is lower, I knowthat I'm breathing better, I'm
chill and I can be a little bitwound sometimes, but but but I'm
(20:31):
not.
I'm certainly.
I don't think I'm high anxietyabout anything, and yet it it
jumping in a canoe and havingthat experience, that nature
experience makes me totallychill and I hear that from all
kinds of people.
So that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Well, it makes total sense to everybody to be quite
honest, especially in our field,in our community, and I think
it's good, it's good for thesoul to sort of say you know,
you're wrong and I'll do itmyself, like I.
I, I've been along around thisworld so many times that I know
what's right and I know also,and poor, poor Cliff I, I've
been along around this world somany times I know what's right
and I know also, and poor poorCliff I.
(21:10):
When I I first met him, I wentwe need to talk about a few
things.
First of all, there's no moneyto be made in writing in Canada
for the outdoors, so okay, sowhy do you want to write this
book?
And he said the same thing.
He's on high anxiety too.
Well, I'm guessing, knowing him, and want to write this book.
And he said the same thing he'son high anxiety too well, I'm
guessing, knowing him.
And he just want to make adifference.
You know he's, he's marriedwith a small kid and he's
(21:31):
worried about the future of theworld, worried about wilderness.
He loves tomogami, worriedabout tomogami, and he wanted to
do something.
And uh, tonight, just after orjust before this uh interview, I
talked to him and showed himthe book because he hasn't got
it yet.
And yeah, that's his carrot.
We did this, kevin.
This is fantastic, and teachersare going to buy it, scouts are
(21:54):
going to buy it, granddads andgrandmothers are going to buy it
.
It's kind of cool, but it wasso funny I said so.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Here's the monies we put out and this is how long it
will take for us to get moniesback and uh, and he's all fine
with that no, I think it's anawesome message and I think, uh,
it is something like there's alot of mental health issues for
kids, especially in that agerange, especially with all
that's going on with socialmedia and pressure from parents
(22:30):
in school, and I think it'sgreat to have some outlet like
that and encourage them to havethat outlet.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
Yeah, I've seen this because I've taught for years.
But the last couple of decadesI've taught youth at risk right,
and we just have to take themin the woods for a long period
of time and they become who theyare.
It's magical, right.
And that's.
Paul Like the one thing aboutthat canoe trip the first few
days he still did not like, hedidn't want to be out there and
(22:58):
that's I've seen that.
But once he got the skill setand felt more comfortable and
laughing at things, at the endwe all deal with that.
You at the end you don't wantto go home.
Oh, you can't wait till yournext trip.
Why?
Because the portages are bad,the bugs are bad, there's bears
out there, of course.
You know comical, but yeah, atthe end those fears were gone
(23:19):
away because it became hisday-to-day life to be out there
with his uncle and the uncleportrayed of he didn't care
because he'd been out there fora long time.
So he's not the teacher, he'sjust the awareness of what's
your problem?
Like what's your problem.
I'm comfortable out here, youshould be as well.
And that's where the uncle wasAt first when we were writing
the book.
You know I was going to be theuncle and I was going.
(23:43):
Yeah, no, that's so typicalLike they can see that coming a
mile away.
Now, mind you, you will see mein the book.
I won't tell you where it is,but you'll see me.
So find Waldo, I'm in there.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
How old is Paul in?
Speaker 3 (23:59):
the book.
So 12, maybe 13, maybe going on14.
And it's tough to write a kid'sbook because you really do have
to get the age set because whenyou go to Indigo and sell your
books they're in rows of age.
So I learned so much writing akid's book.
It's a lot easier writing agood book, but, yeah, you have
(24:21):
to make a certain age.
And then we tested it withyouth.
So youth would read it and thenwe would judge who got it and
who didn't.
And that's that's where we wecame down to um, uh, six great,
or six years old to 12 year old,to was it?
Um, how old are you when youare in grade?
(24:42):
Oh no, I forget the age.
Christine, christine, what agewas it?
Age 6 to 12, and then grade?
Oh hey, it's on the back of thebook.
No, it's not Young kids, butnot kindergarten, yeah so grade
1.
And not grade 9.
They're too cool.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Even though they'll read the book, it's not cool for
them.
What was?
Yes, 15-ish for grade nine?
Yeah right, so up to middleschool I guess, you know what?
The book is written foreverybody.
Well, and that's the thing, oneof the things when I heard
again, because we've talkedabout it in bits and pieces over
(25:28):
over the course of a coupleyears I thought that'd be an
interesting book.
Like I'm going to buy it formyself, you know, and and there
are, I will I will probably readit, you know, give it.
There's parents in the buildingthat have have younger kids and
I'll probably end up donatingit to them to read it to their
kids, because their kids they'rethey're kind of outdoor
friendly type, like they like todo that sort of jazz.
(25:50):
So you know why not right?
but, I'm gonna read it myselffirst, that's good.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
I actually read it out loud this morning to myself
uh, because you, you work sohard on something so long, you
just you lose.
And it's a good storyline.
It really is.
Uh, it will.
It will sort of get everybodyengrossed in it.
And then what's going to happenat the end?
Yeah there's even a moosewearing a pfd.
(26:15):
Because, because that'simportant we like that message
too.
Yeah, I even have the a recipefor uh gor there.
So there they are doing rapidsand there's the moose, that's
excellent.
And then, of course, paul'snervous about running the rapids
(26:36):
.
He's like oh gosh, why are wedoing this?
And there they are.
Oh no, what if we dump?
What if we do this?
And then they do that.
And of course you have theclassifications of the rapids
too, so it's all the informationas well along the way.
And then they do that.
And then Paul's like let's dothat again, let's do it again.
(26:57):
I think I peed myself because Iwas so nervous, but let's do it
again.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
That's excellent.
That's excellent.
That's excellent, all right, soso you wanted to have it out
before the your previous tourthat you literally just finished
, right?
Yeah but you didn't.
So are you doing a, a book tour, an abbreviated, I assume?
Speaker 3 (27:22):
yeah, yeah I'm going to do some signings, so so can
you have your equipment is goingto do the launch.
Um, because you know, at leastI know tim and I said, look, I
don't know when this is comingout.
And I had to get this copy toprove it.
Yesterday too, like the bookwasn't coming out until I
actually saw this and said, okay, well, no, it's not, it's not
done proper.
And it finally it did.
And then he's like come on,come on, kevin, come, come on.
(27:43):
And so I said yeah, let's do it.
So, yeah, may 4th at his store,you can go there and get books
signed, and Cliff's going to bethere as well, which is really
important to me for him to bethere.
And then the other is I'm goingto do a bunch of libraries and
a bunch of other thingsafterwards.
The only problem is that's mycanoeing time, things afterwards
(28:09):
.
The only problem is is that'smy canoeing time and, uh, I was
going to do a huge solo uh tripfor brook trout, the the first
week in may and it's probablygoing to be a three night now
because I'm going to be on theroad.
But the book is more important.
Well, you know what?
No, isn't more important thanbrook trout, no, but find that
balance.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Do it.
Do it hit a library, go spendthree days.
Hit another library three moredays.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
I always even I even said to Christina so I'll do a
tour and then sleep in the caror sleep with my moms or my
sisters, whatever.
And I do want to go moretowards where Cliff lives.
He lives in SouthwesternOntario because this is his
first book, right, and I reallywant to make sure that we
emphasize around his area.
Yeah, I guess I remember that.
I remember my first book.
Yeah, he deserves everythingfor that.
(28:53):
So that'd be fun.
So I will post that for sure onsocial media.
It's all in the works.
I just have to sort of the nextcouple of days.
Yes, this is happening.
I do know I'm speaking at theMarlboro library on April 23rd.
I don't know if I'll have booksthere.
In theory I'll have books there, but I decided I won't speak on
(29:15):
the book.
I'll speak on the passaway trip, cause I I know I can do that,
but in theory I should havebooks there, but I'll let
everybody know the day before ifthey arrive.
So but yeah, I'm blabbing.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
No, no.
So make sure that listeners,you didn't get to see the pretty
pictures, unless you'rewatching this on YouTube.
So go watch us on YouTube forstarters.
Second, check out Kevin's, allKevin's social medias.
He's on Facebook, instagram.
What else, oh you do?
(29:49):
Fires, fireside chats and allthat sort of jazz on on youtube
as well, right?
Speaker 3 (29:52):
yeah, yeah, oh yeah, I love the fireside shows, in
fact, actually.
Well, you'll be on after thefact, but, um, next week I'm
interviewing, doing a whiskeychat with, um, uh, robbie brown.
Do you know him, the musicianfrom Thunder Bay?
Speaker 2 (30:07):
No, the name rings a bell, but I'm drawing a blank.
Speaker 3 (30:10):
Okay, well, he's famous and he sings all about
the North and canoeing, and oneof his favorites, my favorite
song is about the WendellBeckwith no, not Wendell, sorry
the White Otter Castle up North.
He has a song on that and BlackSpruce, and so I mean mean to
be quite honest, the whiskeyjazz I do.
Musicians don't get a lot ofattention when I do interviews
(30:32):
with them, um, but I love it.
I love it like, yeah, themusicians I've interviewed is
phenomenal and it's.
It's a bust too, because formonetization, because the moment
they sing, you know, youtubegoes well, there goes
monetization, but I don't, but Idon't care, I don't care, I
don't make a lot of money offYouTube, I don't care.
But the interview Robbie and IanTamblyn when I interviewed him
(30:54):
oh man, if you haven't seen it,go back and watch that interview
.
The guy is amazing, right, yeah, I reflect the other day when,
during the COVID breakdown orlockdown, whatever I was on my
own and everybody else was ontheir own and I interviewed a
lot of people, if you go back tothe amount of people I
interviewed during then, like itwas amazing, just because it
(31:16):
was all had to do zoom andvirtual.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Nobody had to do anything else.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
So you could just zoom in, yep.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
So what else have you got planned for trips this year
?
Speaker 3 (31:24):
A lot of trips.
I'm going back to Quebec.
Christine and I love Quebec.
We went to to do Lake Kibwalast year and so we're going in
June.
We're going to another parkCan't pronounce it, I don't
think I would yell at Christineto ask, but I don't think she
knows how to pronounce it, butit's, it's north of that, so
(31:45):
we're going back.
We loved it.
Lake kibwa was amazing.
Quebec's amazing culture isamazing.
People are amazing.
Uh, yeah, in a heartbeat, we'relike we're going back and I'm
doing, I am doing my, my, uh,agonquin spring trip, but it's
not until the end of may.
I could curse my buddy, actually, like all for what?
Almost 30 years, every singleyear, we'd be going for Mother's
Day week, right for a gong, fora brush out in the last couple
(32:06):
years.
Well, I'm going on a holidayand we're going to the, going to
Brazil, and I went.
Why, like what?
So then we have to go to theend of May, and we did that last
year and caught no fish.
We did last year, the yearbefore.
We caught no fish because we'rethere to it.
I mean, you think the end ofMay would be good, but it's not
you and we did that last yearand caught no fish.
We did the year before.
We caught no fish because we'rethere to it.
I mean you think the end of Maywould be good, but it's not.
You have to be there in earlyMay.
So anyway, we're still going onthe trip because we're having
(32:28):
fun.
The cool thing is so Mike Kipp'sson can't go this year, so we
needed an extra person.
So I asked Christine's son,jesse, to go, and Christine's,
like has no idea what he'sgetting himself into.
No, he doesn't know these guys.
(32:49):
Is Ashley going to bring hisspeedo?
Almost likely.
We'll see how that goes.
So that'd be fun.
And then Andy and I are planninga trip.
We're having a meeting in thenext couple of days.
He has some ideas, I have someideas.
I actually said he wanted to doanother surprise trip and I
finally had to say to him my guy, I cannot handle that again.
(33:12):
Maybe when we're 70, you can dothat for fun, but I cannot do
that again for my anxiety level.
So let's talk about a route andyou can choose the route.
I don't have to use the route,but I can't and this is a
personal thing, but my anxietycannot handle going off in the
far North not knowing wherewe're going and then getting
into trouble, right, um, I I ifyou watch that video there's a
(33:35):
lot of.
I broke down on that trip.
Um, you imagine being on thattrip where there's forest fires
all around you.
You're actually 250 kilometersaway from everybody.
The float plane is a two hourand two and a half hour flight
and there's no way the plane canland in in those those ponds,
even to get you, and we actuallytraveled like like six days.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
We travel four kilometers to cut our way
through the bush I know thoseportages, or or lack of portages
, were brutal man no, I'm notdoing that again.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
I I people say, well, how do you survive out there?
Because I'm not.
My mom, my mom always say she'sgot, just didn't be stupid okay
, mom, good advice well, she'sright.
Yeah, so anyway, uh, yeah, loveandy to death.
And and I think it was a greatidea what he did I just it's
just a personal thing my anxiety, um, as you probably tell in
(34:31):
the video, uh, was super high,and how I got through,
personally, is bush time.
I actually knew I could getthrough.
Christina said that to meyesterday.
Um, well, you, you know you'dbe fine.
I mean, it's not your firstrodeo.
Uh, yeah, and she's right.
Actually, that that's I.
I sort of.
There's a certain part of thetrip I go well, I know how to
(34:53):
cut bush, I know how to camp, Iknow how to canoe, even though
I'm old and I'm sore, and thenmy, my brain kicked in and my
body just gave away, cause, it'slike you know, you forgot about
the hurt until you got home andthen you really hurt, right,
but when my knee went under thecanoe and just bent out like I
was just high on meds the entiretrip, so until I got home.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
So yeah, good fun.
I know all about bodies bailingout on you mid-portage, but
thankfully I tandem and makesure that I bring along a very
tall, strong kid that can carrythe stuff.
Speaker 3 (35:29):
Oh, that's right.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Yeah, is the book available for pre-sale?
I know this will air on the21st of April, so the book will
already have been out for oneweek.
I will do a short at some point.
Is there a presale thing?
Speaker 3 (35:46):
Yeah, the presale is actually now.
You can order it right now,which is whatever day this is.
It's like two weeks from thedate you're saying it's released
on April 14th, so that meansactually it has to get printed.
So that takes a good five days,so you're not going to get the
book the next day, um, but it'sallowed to be printed and that's
(36:08):
just the thing I did.
I said, look, you're notputting this book out without me
having a look at it.
Like, I can look at it, um, onPDF file on the computer and the
printer says this is okay andyeah, on the computer and the
printer says this is okay andyeah, um, so, yeah, um, it's.
Some people are saying, well,it's not hardcover, it should be
(36:29):
hardcover, it's too soft,whatever.
Well, it all depends.
Like it's it's glossy cover andmatte finish, whatever.
And I I chose all those becausethe designer jill I've known
for years.
She goes well, this is what youwant to get for the money and,
for example, this is one of myfavorite kids books.
If you haven't got this, getthis.
And the guy's amazing, all fourseasons of a trip on his
(36:52):
artwork and that's incredible.
But it's hardcover withactually a dust cover.
It costs you a fortune, likeyou'd have to go through a
publisher for that, like Icouldn't afford to do that.
So we, you know, we did thesoft cover, which actually a lot
of kids books majority of themwere like this nowadays um,
especially for a story like that.
So it just it comes down to youknow, kevin callen books
(37:15):
doesn't have the money to dosomething.
That's thousands, thousands ofdollars.
So, yeah, uh, forself-publishing, for the
advantages of it, of it.
So, if you know, let's startwith the disadvantages.
If you're self-published, somepeople would say, well, you're
not real, a real writer ifyou're self-published, because
anybody could be self-publishedand that's true, actually,
anybody could actually go to oneof those printing companies and
(37:36):
and actually do their own book.
Um, sandy mode at cbc radiofriday morning sun uh, I
wouldn't.
Yeah, I don't know him becauseof friday mo, I just know him as
sandy.
He's a good friend of mine andhe goes, kevin, like you don't
have to, you don't have to worryabout that.
You, you have, this is your20th book.
You've, you've already provenyourself.
So he goes.
(37:57):
But your publisher, I make eightpercent royalty on all my other
books, my guidebooks, 8%, andthen I have to wait for that
royalty if I get it right,because everybody's all you know
you're going to get paid.
If I self-publish, if I sell itmyself and actually sell it at
a book signing, I get 70%royalty.
It's a huge difference Big time, and I should.
(38:21):
I do all the work Like apublisher in theory.
In the old days did all thework.
They did marketing, they diddistribution and they did.
But really, who goes to all theshows?
Do you see my publisher atthose shows when you're with me?
No Distribution, how do thosefolks get there?
I ordered them right.
So sandy goes, we'll do it.
And then so the last two booksthe once around agonquin and
(38:44):
also the uh, another bend in theriver was self-published and
yeah, I didn't sell as many butI actually made money right, um,
but you have to invest in it.
You have to do it proper.
And here's the thing thateverybody should know for self
publishing you have to do itproper.
You don't get your grandmotheror your mother to edit unless
they're an editor, but you don'tget them to do it, you need a
professional.
(39:05):
And Kathy Fraser and Jill Seedactually did that and I know
them.
And yes, that cost me money andI told Cliff, like we have to
invest money, and then that madea huge difference because you
know, we thought all thespelling mistakes were done and
we gave it to Kathy.
She found 43 of them.
So you do that.
But at the end of the time it'sstill a lot of work and that
(39:27):
means now the book is out andnow we still have to go on the
road and promote it.
But if a store sells it, likeCanada Equipment or Amazon, I
make 40%, not 8%.
So I still make more, right?
Yeah, it's one of those thingsthat's yin and yang, right?
Speaker 2 (39:46):
Yep, does Cliff go on the tour with you, like on the
road for any of these he isdoing some.
Speaker 3 (39:54):
He's got a family of a young kid.
He also is I shouldn't tell you.
Well, he'll tell you he's verynervous.
He showed up the Hamilton showand saw me talking to everybody
and then I talked to him thatnight he goes, yeah.
I know, but he will be there.
He will be there for some ofthe good, solid ones too, and I
(40:14):
don't expect him to to be going,as I'm so hyper, I don't expect
him to keep up with me.
Him to to be going, as I'm sohyper, um, I don't expect him to
keep up with me, uh.
So, um, yeah, he's good at whathe does illustration and I'm
good at what I do.
So, yeah, uh, yeah, I, it's sofunny to to see him at the
hamilton show.
I was talking to people and Ihad a lot of people and then I
saw him to my left and I feltbad because I couldn't talk to
(40:36):
him because I was talking.
And then I phoned him and hegoes no, kevin, I'm not doing
that which is fine, becausewe're all.
We're all different, right weare.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
I can.
I can do this, but to stand infront of a crowd of people I
would just be a big thing ofsweat and melty goo on the stage
.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
That I couldn't yeah yeah, I can't do it, you're in
the headlights.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
He'd be uh you know, here I'll tell you a story just
to finish this off um, uh forenlightenment for everybody.
So, uh, evan's uh traversingshow at the uh canoe museum, um,
right last week, but it won'tbe last.
We're talking about we're.
But, yeah, he needed one morepresenter and didn't know who
(41:20):
and I said chris prowse.
Uh, for the meanest link, right, and he goes really like, would
she even talk?
I went, I don't know, likeshe's never presented before,
but I know her really quite well.
She actually lives down theroad.
Yeah, so we communicated andshe was hesitant and she called
me and we had a really good talkon the phone and, um, I said,
well, I really think you'll doan amazing job.
(41:40):
Like, you have no problem withpresenting, even though you
never presented before.
But what do you present?
Will present on and and.
So if you haven't seen it, goto um, evan has the, the feed
that he did.
He did um online as well andnow he posts that so you can
watch.
Her presentation blew everybodyaway.
(42:00):
It's the best presentation.
I shouldn't say that, but I'msaying it right now.
It's the best presentation theentire day, right, um, because
she talked about, she showed.
This is what people that being,some men thought of us that her
and julia um being online andshe showed comments made about
they should be home in thekitchen.
(42:22):
They don't belong out there andthings like that, and that's
why they disappeared.
If you want to know why ChrisProuse disappeared off social
media for a while, that's whyshe said I'm done.
And then that's why they didthe meanest link and then did
the meanest link again, and thendid it again and then kept
beating their previous records.
(42:42):
Yeah the record and throw them,mike, down, like, yeah, you
might disagree with what they do, is they go as fast as possible
, whatever.
But she actually talked aboutthat at the end as well and
saying, well, but that is whatwe do, that is our calmness,
we're marathon people like youdon't have to do what we do, but
this is what we do.
And she made really, sheexplained it really quite well
(43:04):
and you could tell she wasnervous for the first two
minutes and after that she heldthe floor and I got to say, man,
that was awesome.
So, being nervous, you couldsay, look, you read my memoir.
I was the most.
Well, I'm still a nervousperson.
But to go from not even tospeak a word in high school with
(43:24):
a stuttering impediment toactually doing all these shows
now why it's motivation to makea change in life, to make a
change in wilderness protection,and if I have to do that, to
get on stage, I'll do it.
But when I get home, christine,am I quiet?
When I get home, I just wokeher up.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
All right.
Well, we're going to let you goget in heck for that, okay.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
That's it for us for today.
Thank you so much to KevinCallum.
Please check him out.
He's on Instagram, youtube allthe things as Casey Happy Camper
.
Right, yes, yes, so check himout.
Please do check out A Spark ofCourage, kevin Cowan's new book,
children's book.
We'll be ordering one forourselves and please do check us
(44:12):
out while you're on all thethings.
Please do email us.
We are at hi atsupergoodcampingcom.
That's hi atsupergoodcampingcom.
We'll talk to you again soon.
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