June 11, 2023 • 38 mins
Have you ever considered the connection between superhero politics and real-world power dynamics? Join us for a captivating conversation with comic book enthusiast and political science major, Joshua Drumming, as we unravel the politics of superheroes and their reflection on our views of justice and morality. Joshua enlightens us on the presence of white supremacy in juvenile mediums and how neoliberal policies exacerbate its effects.
Together, we examine the implications of American-centric messages in superhero stories, focusing on how Superman often represents the United States. We discuss the idea of wealth and power as superpowers and the way they contribute to feelings of powerlessness. Throughout our conversation, we explore the shift from 'Truth, Justice, and the American Way' to a less America-centric message, and the importance of speaking truth to power in today's confused America.
Lastly, we dive into the impact of critical race theory on black history and culture, discussing the erasure of African American contributions due to white cultural imperialism. This episode is an eye-opening exploration of the intersection of comic books, politics, and social issues. Join us and learn how we can use our power to make a difference in the world and become the heroes we are meant to be.
Follow Joshua on his Social Media Links:
Linkedin: Joshua Drumming
Tik Tok: @joshuadrumming
Here are some of Joshua's suggested reading:
Political Texts:
1. Groundings with my Brothers
2. Inglorious Empire
3. Fire on the Levee
4. Caste
5. Black Ethnics: Race, Immigration, and the Pursuit of the American Dream
Comics:
1. Kingdom Come
2. Superman (current run)
3. Action Comics
4. Bitter Root
5. Black Hammer
6. Supergirl: Woman of Tomorrow
7. Sins of Sinister
8. Icon and Rocket: Season 1
9. Static:Season 1/ Static: Shadows of Dakota
10. Duo
11. Blood Syndicate: Season 1
http://www.youtube.com/@superheropoliticspodcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
All right brother, how are you Welcome to superhero
politics podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Thank you, i'm doing all right.
How about yourself?
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Good, good, good.
Thank you for being on.
I just always we introduceourselves, you know, and our to
our listeners, and so give youan opportunity now to tell our
listeners a little bit about youand your connection to college
comic books and your connectionto politics.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Yeah for sure.
So my name is Joshua drumming.
I've been reading comics for aslong as I can remember, like a
little bit of I primarily do DC,marvel, but I do a little, a
little bit of everything youknow image, virgin, titan,
(00:51):
concrete you name it In terms ofhow actually attached to that,
academically speaking, i try toinject comic books whenever I
can.
So my senior thesis actuallysaw the political science major
(01:14):
And my senior thesis had to beabout neoliberalism.
So it's like I'm going to talkabout neoliberalism and comic
books.
So, yeah, so, like, my thesisended up talking about how, you
know, white supremacy is sopervasive that you can see it
even in, you know, juvenilemediums And how neoliberal
(01:37):
policies exacerbate all of theeffects of what supremacy.
In law school It was much harderto incorporate comic comic
books, but I actually did end upfinding this one curvy case.
(01:58):
That's all I could do, wasn'tvery much.
But yeah, like I've been, youknow, loving common books
forever.
I've been loving politics andlaw forever.
I was actually on a municipallevel political campaign when I
lived in Indianapolis.
I hope to get on some futurecampaigns in the future.
(02:20):
But yeah, that's a little bitabout myself.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
That's awesome.
So where did you have yougraduated law school yet, or are
you still in law school?
Speaker 1 (02:31):
So I graduated law school May 22.
Where did you attend GW Law?
Okay, yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Yeah, great, great.
So you said that you you workedon a municipal level campaign
and you hope to get on those inthe future.
And so you know, like I alwaystell my listeners, you know, the
reason why this is born isbecause I, much like yourself,
grew up loving comic books andgetting involved in politics and
always saw the parallels, muchlike you do.
(02:59):
I feel like I'm having aconversation with a younger
version of myself, becauseyou're tracking kind of the same
way that I discovered and endedup here on this podcast and
form formation of this podcast,which is a superior of politics,
and so I myself currently am asitting city councilman, running
(03:19):
for reelection this year.
And so you know, it's it's.
It's really great to always findsomeone who has kind of a
kindred view of the way andintersectionalities between two
seemingly independent genres ofthings.
And so what was the first comicbook that you read that, even
(03:44):
as a youngster, that that reallypiqued you and said, yeah, this
is something that transcendsjust the idea of superpowers and
heroes and villains.
What was the first comic bookthat you read that really
connected you to the idea ofpolitics running throughout
(04:05):
comic books?
Speaker 1 (04:08):
That's really really hard.
I know there are some peoplethat are really good at about
remembering, like oh yeah, myfirst comic book was this, and
maybe I'm not sure Like one thatI read a while ago and
definitely made me feel this way.
Realistically, it probablywasn't my first, But I'm gonna
(04:32):
say Kingdom come, yeah, yeah.
Kingdom come is a masterpiece.
I got it from the library and Iwas just going to, you know,
read it, return it.
I was like, oh no, i need tobuy this.
So I bought that.
(04:53):
as soon as I finished readingit, and you know, just really
talking about how, you know justhow we organize this world And
you know what is like, what isgood, what is evil, and also is
(05:16):
there a possibility to have youderive Maleficent from inaction.
you know, when it comes to, youknow Superman in that story,
you know he's.
by the way, superman is like myfavorite hero to this day.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
And I'm like, wow, bro, we are really honestly like
different, like we're different.
I feel like Superman is myfavorite as well, So I feel like
we're just essentially, youknow, like kindred versions, man
, because we're tracking thesame same hero and that was
going to be my question, likehow, when you said King will
come, i immediately knew thatSuperman was your guy, because
(05:58):
that is one of the mostquintessential, quintessential
works that shows really thedichotomy of how Superman lives
in the world, like where he fitsinto the world, what his effect
and his presence is when it's,when it's very apparent, and
what is his effect and it iswhen he's not a parent, and so
(06:22):
it's that really that power, andwho has it and how it's
concentrated and what it doeswhen it's active and versus
inactive, and so that's a great,that's a great work, man.
It's one of my favorites as well.
And so, now that you like when,when, that, when, you had that
(06:43):
realization that one of yourfavorite things comic books is
now driving you to towardssomething else, that that is a,
you know, an essential part ofyour life, like how, how much
passion did you discover forconnecting the two?
because I know it was always acentral theme in my life, like
(07:04):
you know, the use of power, theabuse of power, the distribution
of power, like all of thedifferent underlying tones of
comic books, and it really droveand informed my politics and my
own political views.
How did it do that for you?
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Yeah, like I think that I have made parallels
between you know political powerand you know superpowers.
In the past, you know we were,so we were using that framework
(07:47):
for the real world.
You know who would have thesuperpowers It'll be white
people, right, exactly, andblack people, brown people.
You know we're, you know, left,on the ground, looking up, we
are disenfranchised, where weliterally lack self determinism
(08:14):
And you know everyone wants tobe Superman, you know, or
Spider-Man, or you know nameyour favorite hero, right, and
you know we have a lot of blackkids and black adults that you
know do fundamentally feelpowerless in our current system.
(08:35):
So it's about, you know,redressing the wrongs that lead
to that feeling and reality ofpowerlessness.
And you know it's really tough.
It's, you know, and there's, asyou know, like there's so many
different pieces, like the legalfield, the political field, the
social field, etc.
(08:56):
Etc.
That you have to target thepopular culture field.
You have to target to, you knowand view people with that sense
of power and you know theactual concretized power And
certainly Yeah, so it's, it's,it's.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
It's odd that you say that, not I, but it's kind of
prescient that you say that isbecause when you think about
that, i remember in the originalWeedon cut of well, the Weedon
cut of Justice League, you know,they had that scene with Flash
and Batman, you know, and heasked him what's your superpower
(09:41):
?
And he says I'm rich.
And you see, you think aboutthat.
You think about how we havewealth and wealth distribution
and generational wealth builtfrom generational theft in this
country Looks like superpowers.
You know, other people areflying where some people have to
(10:01):
walk, and so when you said thatwe're constantly on the ground
looking up, that's how the worldfeels as Superman flies above
them, as the heroes fly abovethem, and so it makes ordinary
people feel powerless.
And I always think about, youknow, the Superman is America
(10:21):
And then the rest of the worldis is just kind of the
playground.
Superman flies into whatevercountry he needs to fly into to
help, but there's always somedamage that happens when he goes
into hell, and so it's you know, even though the intentions may
be altruistic, there's alwayscollateral damage.
(10:43):
That happens when something ofthat great a power goes in to
something with lesser power.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Yeah, absolutely Yeah .
And you know one thing I love,one change that I think is was
so important.
You know, several years backthey changed it from, you know,
truth, justice in the Americanway to you know, a less America
centric motto, which I lovebecause you know, like, let's
(11:17):
look at, you know, superman, onething I always love talking
about with Superman is, you know, his connection to so I'm a
devout Christian, right, andSuperman is definitely, you know
, position in that kind ofJudeo-Christian messianic, you
(11:38):
know position, right.
So if we look at that, we haveto look at the contradictions.
You know, God bless America.
But America is not, you know, amoral state.
It's not.
So what is it?
what are we saying when we saythat arguably the most moral
(12:01):
figure on the planet, superman,is going about it the American
way is imposing, you know,america's just inherently
imperialistic, you knowdisposition onto the world, like
(12:23):
I think that it is reallyreally important to move away
from the American centric-nessAnd obviously, like he's still
very American centric, like heliterally is dressing the flag
still, but you know, even ifit's a, you know, kind of
symbolic shift, i think that'simportant.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
No, i think Superman at any of itself is a symbol.
Now, i don't know if you cansee above my head here, you know
I have, you know, a House of ElCrest with my last initial in
it, and it's that's howformative it's been to me.
Like it's just the idea thatthere is a figure of kind of
(13:11):
irreproachable moralism and itstruth, justice in the American
way.
And some of my favorite stories, you know, in the Superman
comics have been about himattacking what seems to be
systemic wrongs, like Supermanbashes the Klan For some reason.
(13:34):
I just kind of love that one,and so you see that and you see
them.
But then also you look at, youknow, like the Dark Knight
returns, and then you know,superman also becomes like a
figure of the establishment.
And so when you have those twolike dichotomies of the same
character, you know it kind ofmakes you think about the
(13:56):
dichotomy of America.
Like America presents itself,as you know, the melting pot,
land of the free, bring me yourtired, poor huddle masses, and
then we're also, you know, builda wall, kick everybody out, and
it presents that dichotomy ofyou know what, the thing that
(14:17):
you love.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Yeah, it definitely does.
So I really like if not the man, i like some of the words of
(14:39):
Thomas Jefferson.
You know, i think that's a verycontroversial take Just because
, so obviously, you know, tj wasgarbage, right, but I think
that he represents, herepresents America and he, i
think he represents the confusedsoul of America.
(15:01):
There's this one quote I likethat I'm not going to save our
beat them, because I always messit up for like 100% of the time
, but it's basically, you know,we have the wolf by the neck or
something essentially justice inone hand and self preservation
(15:25):
and the other.
He's talking about theinstitution of slavery, of
course, but you know, like, wecan map that onto like a lot of
different things.
We can map that onto theimperialism that America is
still engaging in.
You know what's up Guam We canmap that onto.
(15:48):
You know capitalism that youknow runs America and how, like,
whether you like capitalism ornot, it's hard to argue with the
numbers.
You know capitalism, you know,is one of the most deadly
institutions to ever be created,right?
So, yeah, i think that Americahas always represented a
(16:14):
confused soul, down to today,and I think it's, you know, part
of the solution, so to speak,is, you know speaking truth to
power and you know acknowledging, you know, the confused nature
(16:38):
of America, like one of myfavorite political philosophers
is Walter Rodney, and he talkedabout white cultural imperialism
and how it is imperative to youknow disabuse people of this
notion that you know blackpeople haven't created anything
that white people have created,everything that white people are
(16:59):
.
You know the paragons ofaltruism and you know black
people are the antithesis.
It's imperative to you knowtell people the truth about.
You know, all of the historicalcontributions of black folks,
right, and you know, like we seekind of the opposite of that
(17:24):
happening right now, like thisanti-CRT movement, and it's like
we're going to, you know, hideand obfuscate the truth as much
as possible where we're notgoing to be able to.
We're not going to allow you tolearn black history, we're not
going to let you learn Latinohistory, we're not going to let
(17:51):
you learn Native history, etcetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Because at the end of the day,you know, even let's pretend for
a second that America is likethis super, you know moral state
today, right, it would still betrue that for the majority of
American history, america hasbeen the Galactic Empire.
(18:12):
The America has been thecapital in Hunger Games.
America has been, you know,fill in the blank, you know,
really evil scrolls, the Cree,the Shiar, like they like you
can name it.
Yeah, they've been that, yeah.
(18:33):
So yeah, i think it's just soimportant to understand that you
are not Katniss, america likeyou're not Katniss, and you know
that can be you.
Being Katniss can beaspirational.
You can say I want to beKatniss, but in order for that
(18:58):
to be made real, you have tounderstand that you are the
capital today and you have toreverse engineer that right Back
to Katniss or to not back totwo Katniss.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
So, if you mind me, if you let me break in here for
a second, because you brought upCRT and I really wanted I want
you to touch on that and expounda little bit because you are,
you were a law student, yougraduated law school, and so one
of the one of the one of theattacking points of the right on
CRT has been that CRT is beingtaught in K-12 education And so
(19:39):
obviously, as a law student, youprobably probably studied
critical race theory.
So dispel the myth that CRT issomething that is distilled down
to K-12 students.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
So well, one is if we're looking at the history of
CRT, it was credit and lawschools, right, and you know it
has expanded where you know youcan have it in, like, for
example, like there aredefinitely like PhDs that are,
you know, learning CRT, right,but like you need to understand
that.
You know critical race theoryis not, you know, like this,
(20:25):
like gen ed when it comes to lawschool.
So even a lot of lawyers.
If you were to ask them tospeak in depth on CRT, they'd be
unable to right.
So if that's the case, you canimagine how ridiculous it is to
(20:49):
say, oh yeah, that 10th graderis learning CRT, right, right.
Critical race theory, i think,is such a great framework and
the right has just reallybastardized it And you know it's
(21:11):
essentially been turned into adog whistle.
For you know anything theydon't want to teach or anything
that they deem bad, and by badjust you know, anti-racist, like
, yeah, like CRT, look, i'll bethat.
(21:37):
You know controversial, dude,and you know I wouldn't be
opposed if you know, like, if itwas a more technical subject.
Yeah, yeah, teach it like teachthe kids, you know.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
There certainly has never been racism embedded in
the structure of education andhigher education, never
Certainly.
If anything has been immune toracism, it has been education,
which obviously I'm beingfacetious here for those who
can't tell But yeah, so a lot ofpeople are saying that now what
(22:16):
they're able to do is couchanything that is relative to the
history of black people in thiscountry, especially in a
positive sense, couch it intocritical race theory and then
get it removed from curriculumcurricula around the country,
and so you're essentiallypracticing critical race theory
(22:39):
by saying you're combatingcritical race theory, because
what you're doing is you'rewhitewashing the history of
black people's contribution tothis country.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Oh, actually, excuse me, I'm so sorry, I had to move
You mind if I grab my charger,No no, you're fine.
No All right.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
So you know, we're in this scenario where we have you
know this term that says thisis the study of racism and how
it permeates a society, And thenyou have those who say this is
a way to label currentgenerations with the sins of
(23:32):
their ancestors, And so that'snot fair.
Therefore, rather than having areason conversation on the
issue, we're going to get rid ofit And, as a matter of fact,
now this is our opportunity toget rid of all things black
history and, you know, black,edifying.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Yeah, what I would say is let's make a deal.
We you did not enslave youpersonally, randall white person
right not enslaved me, you didnot enslave my ancestors Right.
(24:17):
So let's make a deal, we will.
We can never talk about itright because you, you Chad, you
didn't do the enslaving Right.
But you know, i believe in quidpro quo.
So in exchange you don't get toreap any of the benefits of
(24:41):
slavery, of the black codes, ofthe Jim Crow laws, of the red
lining, of the homestead act, ofthe GI bill, of any of you, the
disparate rates of, you know,approving loans none of it.
(25:05):
We can act as if your hand,your ancestors hands, are clean.
You do not get to availyourself of all the benefits
because bloody hands gave youthat.
If you agree to that deal,we're good, we're good.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Do you actually think that they would take that deal?
because the contributions ofAfrican Americans in terms of
intellectual property and laborand everything else, and
especially now in terms ofculture, is so embedded in our
economy.
If you look at our GDP and youlook at some of our greatest
exports, i've been veryfortunate to see most of this
(25:57):
world, so I've been pretty muchall over the planet and I have
never seen, i've never gone to aplace where I didn't see
evidence of black culture,whether it's a kid with a
two-pot t-shirt on in Russia, orsomeone wearing a LeBron jersey
(26:19):
in Spain, or someone listeningto music or the style of music
that they're producing in theircountries.
So I've never been anywherewhere we haven't seen the
influence of African Americanculture, specifically African
(26:42):
American culture.
So that's probably our largestand most profitable export in
this country is black culture.
So I don't see a way that thatdeal would be acceptable,
because if you look at thecontributions of our economy,
(27:04):
it's at least half.
It's at least half.
If we look at our 20-somethingto 30-something trillion dollar
economy, it's at least half, andI don't know if they're willing
to go half on that.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Yeah.
So I'm up two minds Because onone hand, i think that even the
most ardent anti-CRT folkssomewhere in there in their
heart of hearts they understandhow beneficial the blood of my
(27:46):
ancestors has been for theirwell-being and livelihood, but
on the other hand, we have totake it back to white cultural
imperialism because I genuinelydon't believe that the average
American knows that, say, whiteAmerican.
(28:06):
The average American trulyknows the depths of black and
specifically African Americancontribution.
So I talk about this a lot Whenit comes to African Americans
(28:27):
specifically.
So I'm not talking aboutJamaican or Afro-Nikaragwan or
Nigerian, specifically AfricanAmerican culture.
It's seen as a cultural globalcommons, if you are, because,
(28:48):
generally speaking, if youparticipate in Jamaican culture,
it is very clear you areparticipating in Jamaican
culture, Nigerian, nigerianculture, south African,
afro-brazilian, you name it.
When it comes to AfricanAmerican culture, i think it's
(29:09):
often seen as just Americanculture.
So whether we're talking aboutrap, r&b, soul, food, hip hop,
dances, etc.
Everyone's doing it in thiscountry and the other 195 give
(29:32):
or take, and it's just seen asAmerican culture and its
creators aren't really givingthe credit for it.
But what is it actually saying?
What does it actually mean?
It means that If I'm thatRussian kid in the two-poque
shirt, i, yeah, i can see hisface.
(29:56):
Yeah, it's a black guy, right,but it's just American to me.
I'm not really attributing thatto black folks, i'm not really
attributing that to AfricanAmerican folks, it's just
American.
I am, you know, i'm taking partin, you know, american culture
because Americans are cool.
(30:19):
So if we were to, you know,racialize the conversation and
say, hey, randall, white person,would you be willing to get rid
of all of the benefits andcontributions of black folks or
African American folks?
if we're getting more specific,they may not even, you know,
(30:39):
conceptualize it like that, like, oh, wow, no more hip hop, no
more hip hop, because that's allof ours.
No, no more this type of food,that's all of ours.
No more.
You know, 80% of TikTok, that'sall of ours.
Right, you know.
So I think we have a lot ofwork to do to even get to the
(31:05):
point where you know the average.
You know black person, nomatter what part of the diaspora
they come from, white person,asian person, latino person, et
cetera, will look at, you know,rap, for example, r&b, for
example, like oh, no that isblack.
I know Americans love it, butthat is black Right So yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
So I think I think, as that gets kind of brings us
to a point, i think you saidsomething where the Russian kid
that I met and when I was in StPetersburg, who had on the
T-Tupac T-shirt, he just lookedat it as American, and I think
(31:49):
all black people have everwanted was just to be looked at
as American.
One of the one of the aspectsof white privilege I don't think
people realize is the it's theopportunity to be seen as an
individual, and we have eitherbeen this monolithic group or we
(32:10):
have been seen as outside thefabric of America, and so you
know, i really appreciate youbeing here.
We're coming up on time.
But one question what are youreading now politically?
What are you reading now?
What are you reading Watchingpolitically?
And also, what are you readingWatching from superhero
(32:33):
standpoint?
Speaker 1 (32:34):
You know so much.
When it comes to the comic bookstuff, i'm really liking this
new Superman run.
I'm really 1050 action, theaction comic, the action comics
and the actual Superman one.
So that's by Jamal Campbell,who's one of my favorite new
(32:57):
Everything with the X on thetitle, i love it, of course.
Like Superman is my favorite.
Wolverine is my number two,like what I've been getting into
like black indies recently.
So you know concrete comics,godhood comics few others I'm, i
(33:22):
just start reading.
You know bitter root from imagecomics, cool one.
I'm just looking at my some ofmy more recent ones.
Oh, the milestone, milestone2.0.
Love all the Yeah, so many.
When it comes to the politicalside reading, you know a million
(33:46):
articles here and there I'mreading.
I just picked up this one bookfire and the levy.
It's about, you know thispolice killing of this black
gentleman about 20 years ago andthe subsequent cover up.
Um I you know, in gloriousempire.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
That's about you know British colonialism in India,
um you know and for ourlisteners, everything that
Joshua is reading And I'm goingto get that it's going to be in
our show notes.
We'll put links to it so youcan go check it out too, Because
he is giving you guys some workright now when it comes to
(34:31):
upping your game and comics, andin political readings He is
giving you guys a some work.
So all that will be in the shownotes And so I'm really going
to ask you guys to go check thatout.
So, Josh, where can people findyou?
Where?
where are you?
So I, we came across each otheron a thread commenting on tick
(34:53):
tock.
You had a, you had a great takeon an issue and I was like, Hey
, man, I got to talk to that guy.
So where, where else can peoplefind you?
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Yeah, linkedin and tick tock will be will both be
great places to find me.
So on LinkedIn, it's just myname, joshua drumming.
Drumming is D R, u, m, m I N G,just like drumming on a drum.
As for tick tock, that also isa great place to find me.
I'm currently on my tick tockbecause I couldn't even tell you
(35:25):
up top of my head with my oh,it's just my name.
Cool, that is, that'sconvenient, joshua drumming.
One word on tick tock.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
So all the links, all the links to Josh.
I'm going to connect with themon LinkedIn and we already
follow each other on tick tock,so I'm going to put every
connection to Josh Also in theshow notes.
please go follow him.
He is an intelligent young man,young brother, and he has some
great stuff, and so I lookforward to talking to him in the
(35:57):
future.
Like I told, like I saidearlier, i feel like I'm talking
to a younger version of myself.
You know you get one of those.
You know I'm thinking about theflash promo and the trailer,
where, where he runs back intime and he runs into himself
and I feel like I'm having thatmoment right now with Josh here.
So, josh, i really appreciateyou being on the show.
(36:17):
Man, i definitely believe we'regoing to do this again, because
there's so many things that Ithink that you can contribute to
conversations and shows that Iwant to have in the future.
So thank you, guys for being on, for being on the day and
talking my listeners out there.
Continue to be kind to eachother, continue to think about
(36:39):
the world around you and how youfit in it and how you affected,
think about your power, thinkabout the presence of your power
, and think about the absence ofyour power, because it affects
change, whether it's there orwhether it's not.
So just remember, continue tobe someone's hero and you don't
have to be superhuman to.
(36:59):
You don't have to be superhumanto be a superhuman.
So until next time, this isMichael Holmes, this superhero
politics podcast, and we are out.
All right brother, how are you Welcome to superhero
politics podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Thank you, i'm doing all right.
How about yourself?
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Good, good, good.
Thank you for being on.
I just always we introduceourselves, you know, and our to
our listeners, and so give youan opportunity now to tell our
listeners a little bit about youand your connection to college
comic books and your connectionto politics.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Yeah for sure.
So my name is Joshua drumming.
I've been reading comics for aslong as I can remember, like a
little bit of I primarily do DC,marvel, but I do a little, a
little bit of everything youknow image, virgin, titan,
(00:51):
concrete you name it In terms ofhow actually attached to that,
academically speaking, i try toinject comic books whenever I
can.
So my senior thesis actuallysaw the political science major
(01:14):
And my senior thesis had to beabout neoliberalism.
So it's like I'm going to talkabout neoliberalism and comic
books.
So, yeah, so, like, my thesisended up talking about how, you
know, white supremacy is sopervasive that you can see it
even in, you know, juvenilemediums And how neoliberal
(01:37):
policies exacerbate all of theeffects of what supremacy.
In law school It was much harderto incorporate comic comic
books, but I actually did end upfinding this one curvy case.
(01:58):
That's all I could do, wasn'tvery much.
But yeah, like I've been, youknow, loving common books
forever.
I've been loving politics andlaw forever.
I was actually on a municipallevel political campaign when I
lived in Indianapolis.
I hope to get on some futurecampaigns in the future.
(02:20):
But yeah, that's a little bitabout myself.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
That's awesome.
So where did you have yougraduated law school yet, or are
you still in law school?
Speaker 1 (02:31):
So I graduated law school May 22.
Where did you attend GW Law?
Okay, yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Yeah, great, great.
So you said that you you workedon a municipal level campaign
and you hope to get on those inthe future.
And so you know, like I alwaystell my listeners, you know, the
reason why this is born isbecause I, much like yourself,
grew up loving comic books andgetting involved in politics and
always saw the parallels, muchlike you do.
(02:59):
I feel like I'm having aconversation with a younger
version of myself, becauseyou're tracking kind of the same
way that I discovered and endedup here on this podcast and
form formation of this podcast,which is a superior of politics,
and so I myself currently am asitting city councilman, running
(03:19):
for reelection this year.
And so you know, it's it's.
It's really great to always findsomeone who has kind of a
kindred view of the way andintersectionalities between two
seemingly independent genres ofthings.
And so what was the first comicbook that you read that, even
(03:44):
as a youngster, that that reallypiqued you and said, yeah, this
is something that transcendsjust the idea of superpowers and
heroes and villains.
What was the first comic bookthat you read that really
connected you to the idea ofpolitics running throughout
(04:05):
comic books?
Speaker 1 (04:08):
That's really really hard.
I know there are some peoplethat are really good at about
remembering, like oh yeah, myfirst comic book was this, and
maybe I'm not sure Like one thatI read a while ago and
definitely made me feel this way.
Realistically, it probablywasn't my first, But I'm gonna
(04:32):
say Kingdom come, yeah, yeah.
Kingdom come is a masterpiece.
I got it from the library and Iwas just going to, you know,
read it, return it.
I was like, oh no, i need tobuy this.
So I bought that.
(04:53):
as soon as I finished readingit, and you know, just really
talking about how, you know justhow we organize this world And
you know what is like, what isgood, what is evil, and also is
(05:16):
there a possibility to have youderive Maleficent from inaction.
you know, when it comes to, youknow Superman in that story,
you know he's.
by the way, superman is like myfavorite hero to this day.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
And I'm like, wow, bro, we are really honestly like
different, like we're different.
I feel like Superman is myfavorite as well, So I feel like
we're just essentially, youknow, like kindred versions, man
, because we're tracking thesame same hero and that was
going to be my question, likehow, when you said King will
come, i immediately knew thatSuperman was your guy, because
(05:58):
that is one of the mostquintessential, quintessential
works that shows really thedichotomy of how Superman lives
in the world, like where he fitsinto the world, what his effect
and his presence is when it's,when it's very apparent, and
what is his effect and it iswhen he's not a parent, and so
(06:22):
it's that really that power, andwho has it and how it's
concentrated and what it doeswhen it's active and versus
inactive, and so that's a great,that's a great work, man.
It's one of my favorites as well.
And so, now that you like when,when, that, when, you had that
(06:43):
realization that one of yourfavorite things comic books is
now driving you to towardssomething else, that that is a,
you know, an essential part ofyour life, like how, how much
passion did you discover forconnecting the two?
because I know it was always acentral theme in my life, like
(07:04):
you know, the use of power, theabuse of power, the distribution
of power, like all of thedifferent underlying tones of
comic books, and it really droveand informed my politics and my
own political views.
How did it do that for you?
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Yeah, like I think that I have made parallels
between you know political powerand you know superpowers.
In the past, you know we were,so we were using that framework
(07:47):
for the real world.
You know who would have thesuperpowers It'll be white
people, right, exactly, andblack people, brown people.
You know we're, you know, left,on the ground, looking up, we
are disenfranchised, where weliterally lack self determinism
(08:14):
And you know everyone wants tobe Superman, you know, or
Spider-Man, or you know nameyour favorite hero, right, and
you know we have a lot of blackkids and black adults that you
know do fundamentally feelpowerless in our current system.
(08:35):
So it's about, you know,redressing the wrongs that lead
to that feeling and reality ofpowerlessness.
And you know it's really tough.
It's, you know, and there's, asyou know, like there's so many
different pieces, like the legalfield, the political field, the
social field, etc.
(08:56):
Etc.
That you have to target thepopular culture field.
You have to target to, you knowand view people with that sense
of power and you know theactual concretized power And
certainly Yeah, so it's, it's,it's.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
It's odd that you say that, not I, but it's kind of
prescient that you say that isbecause when you think about
that, i remember in the originalWeedon cut of well, the Weedon
cut of Justice League, you know,they had that scene with Flash
and Batman, you know, and heasked him what's your superpower
(09:41):
?
And he says I'm rich.
And you see, you think aboutthat.
You think about how we havewealth and wealth distribution
and generational wealth builtfrom generational theft in this
country Looks like superpowers.
You know, other people areflying where some people have to
(10:01):
walk, and so when you said thatwe're constantly on the ground
looking up, that's how the worldfeels as Superman flies above
them, as the heroes fly abovethem, and so it makes ordinary
people feel powerless.
And I always think about, youknow, the Superman is America
(10:21):
And then the rest of the worldis is just kind of the
playground.
Superman flies into whatevercountry he needs to fly into to
help, but there's always somedamage that happens when he goes
into hell, and so it's you know, even though the intentions may
be altruistic, there's alwayscollateral damage.
(10:43):
That happens when something ofthat great a power goes in to
something with lesser power.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Yeah, absolutely Yeah .
And you know one thing I love,one change that I think is was
so important.
You know, several years backthey changed it from, you know,
truth, justice in the Americanway to you know, a less America
centric motto, which I lovebecause you know, like, let's
(11:17):
look at, you know, superman, onething I always love talking
about with Superman is, you know, his connection to so I'm a
devout Christian, right, andSuperman is definitely, you know
, position in that kind ofJudeo-Christian messianic, you
(11:38):
know position, right.
So if we look at that, we haveto look at the contradictions.
You know, God bless America.
But America is not, you know, amoral state.
It's not.
So what is it?
what are we saying when we saythat arguably the most moral
(12:01):
figure on the planet, superman,is going about it the American
way is imposing, you know,america's just inherently
imperialistic, you knowdisposition onto the world, like
(12:23):
I think that it is reallyreally important to move away
from the American centric-nessAnd obviously, like he's still
very American centric, like heliterally is dressing the flag
still, but you know, even ifit's a, you know, kind of
symbolic shift, i think that'simportant.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
No, i think Superman at any of itself is a symbol.
Now, i don't know if you cansee above my head here, you know
I have, you know, a House of ElCrest with my last initial in
it, and it's that's howformative it's been to me.
Like it's just the idea thatthere is a figure of kind of
(13:11):
irreproachable moralism and itstruth, justice in the American
way.
And some of my favorite stories, you know, in the Superman
comics have been about himattacking what seems to be
systemic wrongs, like Supermanbashes the Klan For some reason.
(13:34):
I just kind of love that one,and so you see that and you see
them.
But then also you look at, youknow, like the Dark Knight
returns, and then you know,superman also becomes like a
figure of the establishment.
And so when you have those twolike dichotomies of the same
character, you know it kind ofmakes you think about the
(13:56):
dichotomy of America.
Like America presents itself,as you know, the melting pot,
land of the free, bring me yourtired, poor huddle masses, and
then we're also, you know, builda wall, kick everybody out, and
it presents that dichotomy ofyou know what, the thing that
(14:17):
you love.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Yeah, it definitely does.
So I really like if not the man, i like some of the words of
(14:39):
Thomas Jefferson.
You know, i think that's a verycontroversial take Just because
, so obviously, you know, tj wasgarbage, right, but I think
that he represents, herepresents America and he, i
think he represents the confusedsoul of America.
(15:01):
There's this one quote I likethat I'm not going to save our
beat them, because I always messit up for like 100% of the time
, but it's basically, you know,we have the wolf by the neck or
something essentially justice inone hand and self preservation
(15:25):
and the other.
He's talking about theinstitution of slavery, of
course, but you know, like, wecan map that onto like a lot of
different things.
We can map that onto theimperialism that America is
still engaging in.
You know what's up Guam We canmap that onto.
(15:48):
You know capitalism that youknow runs America and how, like,
whether you like capitalism ornot, it's hard to argue with the
numbers.
You know capitalism, you know,is one of the most deadly
institutions to ever be created,right?
So, yeah, i think that Americahas always represented a
(16:14):
confused soul, down to today,and I think it's, you know, part
of the solution, so to speak,is, you know speaking truth to
power and you know acknowledging, you know, the confused nature
(16:38):
of America, like one of myfavorite political philosophers
is Walter Rodney, and he talkedabout white cultural imperialism
and how it is imperative to youknow disabuse people of this
notion that you know blackpeople haven't created anything
that white people have created,everything that white people are
(16:59):
.
You know the paragons ofaltruism and you know black
people are the antithesis.
It's imperative to you knowtell people the truth about.
You know, all of the historicalcontributions of black folks,
right, and you know, like we seekind of the opposite of that
(17:24):
happening right now, like thisanti-CRT movement, and it's like
we're going to, you know, hideand obfuscate the truth as much
as possible where we're notgoing to be able to.
We're not going to allow you tolearn black history, we're not
going to let you learn Latinohistory, we're not going to let
(17:51):
you learn Native history, etcetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Because at the end of the day,you know, even let's pretend for
a second that America is likethis super, you know moral state
today, right, it would still betrue that for the majority of
American history, america hasbeen the Galactic Empire.
(18:12):
The America has been thecapital in Hunger Games.
America has been, you know,fill in the blank, you know,
really evil scrolls, the Cree,the Shiar, like they like you
can name it.
Yeah, they've been that, yeah.
(18:33):
So yeah, i think it's just soimportant to understand that you
are not Katniss, america likeyou're not Katniss, and you know
that can be you.
Being Katniss can beaspirational.
You can say I want to beKatniss, but in order for that
(18:58):
to be made real, you have tounderstand that you are the
capital today and you have toreverse engineer that right Back
to Katniss or to not back totwo Katniss.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
So, if you mind me, if you let me break in here for
a second, because you brought upCRT and I really wanted I want
you to touch on that and expounda little bit because you are,
you were a law student, yougraduated law school, and so one
of the one of the one of theattacking points of the right on
CRT has been that CRT is beingtaught in K-12 education And so
(19:39):
obviously, as a law student, youprobably probably studied
critical race theory.
So dispel the myth that CRT issomething that is distilled down
to K-12 students.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
So well, one is if we're looking at the history of
CRT, it was credit and lawschools, right, and you know it
has expanded where you know youcan have it in, like, for
example, like there aredefinitely like PhDs that are,
you know, learning CRT, right,but like you need to understand
that.
You know critical race theoryis not, you know, like this,
(20:25):
like gen ed when it comes to lawschool.
So even a lot of lawyers.
If you were to ask them tospeak in depth on CRT, they'd be
unable to right.
So if that's the case, you canimagine how ridiculous it is to
(20:49):
say, oh yeah, that 10th graderis learning CRT, right, right.
Critical race theory, i think,is such a great framework and
the right has just reallybastardized it And you know it's
(21:11):
essentially been turned into adog whistle.
For you know anything theydon't want to teach or anything
that they deem bad, and by badjust you know, anti-racist, like
, yeah, like CRT, look, i'll bethat.
(21:37):
You know controversial, dude,and you know I wouldn't be
opposed if you know, like, if itwas a more technical subject.
Yeah, yeah, teach it like teachthe kids, you know.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
There certainly has never been racism embedded in
the structure of education andhigher education, never
Certainly.
If anything has been immune toracism, it has been education,
which obviously I'm beingfacetious here for those who
can't tell But yeah, so a lot ofpeople are saying that now what
(22:16):
they're able to do is couchanything that is relative to the
history of black people in thiscountry, especially in a
positive sense, couch it intocritical race theory and then
get it removed from curriculumcurricula around the country,
and so you're essentiallypracticing critical race theory
(22:39):
by saying you're combatingcritical race theory, because
what you're doing is you'rewhitewashing the history of
black people's contribution tothis country.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Oh, actually, excuse me, I'm so sorry, I had to move
You mind if I grab my charger,No no, you're fine.
No All right.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
So you know, we're in this scenario where we have you
know this term that says thisis the study of racism and how
it permeates a society, And thenyou have those who say this is
a way to label currentgenerations with the sins of
(23:32):
their ancestors, And so that'snot fair.
Therefore, rather than having areason conversation on the
issue, we're going to get rid ofit And, as a matter of fact,
now this is our opportunity toget rid of all things black
history and, you know, black,edifying.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Yeah, what I would say is let's make a deal.
We you did not enslave youpersonally, randall white person
right not enslaved me, you didnot enslave my ancestors Right.
(24:17):
So let's make a deal, we will.
We can never talk about itright because you, you Chad, you
didn't do the enslaving Right.
But you know, i believe in quidpro quo.
So in exchange you don't get toreap any of the benefits of
(24:41):
slavery, of the black codes, ofthe Jim Crow laws, of the red
lining, of the homestead act, ofthe GI bill, of any of you, the
disparate rates of, you know,approving loans none of it.
(25:05):
We can act as if your hand,your ancestors hands, are clean.
You do not get to availyourself of all the benefits
because bloody hands gave youthat.
If you agree to that deal,we're good, we're good.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Do you actually think that they would take that deal?
because the contributions ofAfrican Americans in terms of
intellectual property and laborand everything else, and
especially now in terms ofculture, is so embedded in our
economy.
If you look at our GDP and youlook at some of our greatest
exports, i've been veryfortunate to see most of this
(25:57):
world, so I've been pretty muchall over the planet and I have
never seen, i've never gone to aplace where I didn't see
evidence of black culture,whether it's a kid with a
two-pot t-shirt on in Russia, orsomeone wearing a LeBron jersey
(26:19):
in Spain, or someone listeningto music or the style of music
that they're producing in theircountries.
So I've never been anywherewhere we haven't seen the
influence of African Americanculture, specifically African
(26:42):
American culture.
So that's probably our largestand most profitable export in
this country is black culture.
So I don't see a way that thatdeal would be acceptable,
because if you look at thecontributions of our economy,
(27:04):
it's at least half.
It's at least half.
If we look at our 20-somethingto 30-something trillion dollar
economy, it's at least half, andI don't know if they're willing
to go half on that.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Yeah.
So I'm up two minds Because onone hand, i think that even the
most ardent anti-CRT folkssomewhere in there in their
heart of hearts they understandhow beneficial the blood of my
(27:46):
ancestors has been for theirwell-being and livelihood, but
on the other hand, we have totake it back to white cultural
imperialism because I genuinelydon't believe that the average
American knows that, say, whiteAmerican.
(28:06):
The average American trulyknows the depths of black and
specifically African Americancontribution.
So I talk about this a lot Whenit comes to African Americans
(28:27):
specifically.
So I'm not talking aboutJamaican or Afro-Nikaragwan or
Nigerian, specifically AfricanAmerican culture.
It's seen as a cultural globalcommons, if you are, because,
(28:48):
generally speaking, if youparticipate in Jamaican culture,
it is very clear you areparticipating in Jamaican
culture, Nigerian, nigerianculture, south African,
afro-brazilian, you name it.
When it comes to AfricanAmerican culture, i think it's
(29:09):
often seen as just Americanculture.
So whether we're talking aboutrap, r&b, soul, food, hip hop,
dances, etc.
Everyone's doing it in thiscountry and the other 195 give
(29:32):
or take, and it's just seen asAmerican culture and its
creators aren't really givingthe credit for it.
But what is it actually saying?
What does it actually mean?
It means that If I'm thatRussian kid in the two-poque
shirt, i, yeah, i can see hisface.
(29:56):
Yeah, it's a black guy, right,but it's just American to me.
I'm not really attributing thatto black folks, i'm not really
attributing that to AfricanAmerican folks, it's just
American.
I am, you know, i'm taking partin, you know, american culture
because Americans are cool.
(30:19):
So if we were to, you know,racialize the conversation and
say, hey, randall, white person,would you be willing to get rid
of all of the benefits andcontributions of black folks or
African American folks?
if we're getting more specific,they may not even, you know,
(30:39):
conceptualize it like that, like, oh, wow, no more hip hop, no
more hip hop, because that's allof ours.
No, no more this type of food,that's all of ours.
No more.
You know, 80% of TikTok, that'sall of ours.
Right, you know.
So I think we have a lot ofwork to do to even get to the
(31:05):
point where you know the average.
You know black person, nomatter what part of the diaspora
they come from, white person,asian person, latino person, et
cetera, will look at, you know,rap, for example, r&b, for
example, like oh, no that isblack.
I know Americans love it, butthat is black Right So yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
So I think I think, as that gets kind of brings us
to a point, i think you saidsomething where the Russian kid
that I met and when I was in StPetersburg, who had on the
T-Tupac T-shirt, he just lookedat it as American, and I think
(31:49):
all black people have everwanted was just to be looked at
as American.
One of the one of the aspectsof white privilege I don't think
people realize is the it's theopportunity to be seen as an
individual, and we have eitherbeen this monolithic group or we
(32:10):
have been seen as outside thefabric of America, and so you
know, i really appreciate youbeing here.
We're coming up on time.
But one question what are youreading now politically?
What are you reading now?
What are you reading Watchingpolitically?
And also, what are you readingWatching from superhero
(32:33):
standpoint?
Speaker 1 (32:34):
You know so much.
When it comes to the comic bookstuff, i'm really liking this
new Superman run.
I'm really 1050 action, theaction comic, the action comics
and the actual Superman one.
So that's by Jamal Campbell,who's one of my favorite new
(32:57):
Everything with the X on thetitle, i love it, of course.
Like Superman is my favorite.
Wolverine is my number two,like what I've been getting into
like black indies recently.
So you know concrete comics,godhood comics few others I'm, i
(33:22):
just start reading.
You know bitter root from imagecomics, cool one.
I'm just looking at my some ofmy more recent ones.
Oh, the milestone, milestone2.0.
Love all the Yeah, so many.
When it comes to the politicalside reading, you know a million
(33:46):
articles here and there I'mreading.
I just picked up this one bookfire and the levy.
It's about, you know thispolice killing of this black
gentleman about 20 years ago andthe subsequent cover up.
Um I you know, in gloriousempire.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
That's about you know British colonialism in India,
um you know and for ourlisteners, everything that
Joshua is reading And I'm goingto get that it's going to be in
our show notes.
We'll put links to it so youcan go check it out too, Because
he is giving you guys some workright now when it comes to
(34:31):
upping your game and comics, andin political readings He is
giving you guys a some work.
So all that will be in the shownotes And so I'm really going
to ask you guys to go check thatout.
So, Josh, where can people findyou?
Where?
where are you?
So I, we came across each otheron a thread commenting on tick
(34:53):
tock.
You had a, you had a great takeon an issue and I was like, Hey
, man, I got to talk to that guy.
So where, where else can peoplefind you?
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Yeah, linkedin and tick tock will be will both be
great places to find me.
So on LinkedIn, it's just myname, joshua drumming.
Drumming is D R, u, m, m I N G,just like drumming on a drum.
As for tick tock, that also isa great place to find me.
I'm currently on my tick tockbecause I couldn't even tell you
(35:25):
up top of my head with my oh,it's just my name.
Cool, that is, that'sconvenient, joshua drumming.
One word on tick tock.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
So all the links, all the links to Josh.
I'm going to connect with themon LinkedIn and we already
follow each other on tick tock,so I'm going to put every
connection to Josh Also in theshow notes.
please go follow him.
He is an intelligent young man,young brother, and he has some
great stuff, and so I lookforward to talking to him in the
(35:57):
future.
Like I told, like I saidearlier, i feel like I'm talking
to a younger version of myself.
You know you get one of those.
You know I'm thinking about theflash promo and the trailer,
where, where he runs back intime and he runs into himself
and I feel like I'm having thatmoment right now with Josh here.
So, josh, i really appreciateyou being on the show.
(36:17):
Man, i definitely believe we'regoing to do this again, because
there's so many things that Ithink that you can contribute to
conversations and shows that Iwant to have in the future.
So thank you, guys for being on, for being on the day and
talking my listeners out there.
Continue to be kind to eachother, continue to think about
(36:39):
the world around you and how youfit in it and how you affected,
think about your power, thinkabout the presence of your power
, and think about the absence ofyour power, because it affects
change, whether it's there orwhether it's not.
So just remember, continue tobe someone's hero and you don't
have to be superhuman to.
(36:59):
You don't have to be superhumanto be a superhuman.
So until next time, this isMichael Holmes, this superhero
politics podcast, and we are out.
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