EP 27: Making Post-Growth Cool (Again) with Michael Mezzatesta

What does a world outside of endless, destructive economic growth look like — and how do we get there? How do we break through the virtual monopoly that right-leaning media has on America’s eyes and ears? 

In this episode, Michael Mezzatesta unpacks effective progressive storytelling tactics, post-growth economics, gives his take on tech "broligarchs,” and offers a hopeful vision for transforming our current economic paradigm. We delve into: 

• How storytellers can get creative to reach the audiences that need to hear them and shift cultural narratives 
• Challenging tech billionaires' detached visions of future human existence
• Degrowth and post-growth as alternative economic frameworks that prioritize community and sustainability
• Michael's concrete advice for listeners on finding their climate superpowers

Michael Mezzatesta is an online educator using social media to spread ideas for a better future. His fast-paced, informative videos on Instagram and TikTok present sustainability through the lenses of economics and finance. By explaining the systemic nature of social problems – from climate change to inequality – and advocating for genuine solutions, Michael encourages people to imagine how the future could be better.

Follow Michael!

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/MICHAEL__MEZZ/

Substack: https://substack.com/@michaelmezzatesta?utm_medium=ios

Website: https://michaelmezzatesta.com/

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@michael_mezz 

Bookshop: https://bookshop.org/lists/books-for-a-better-future

Seeding Sovereignty's Socials

Instagram/TikTok/Twitter/YouTube: @seedingsovereignty

Website: www.seedingsovereignty.org

Madeleine's Socials

Instagram/TikTok: @madeleinemacgillivray

Website: www.madeleinemacgillivray.com

Episode Transcript

Unknown (00:00):
Michael, welcome to succeed. Thanks for having me.

(00:02):
Thank you so much for beinghere. Happy to be here. Yeah,
I've been really looking forwardto talking to you, because I
have had the urge to pick yourbrain on so many things for so
long. I really appreciate thework that you do and how you
reach people, and I'm one ofthose people, so
pick my brain. Let's do it. Yes.
Okay, soI'm just gonna like, as usual,

(00:23):
I'm gonna start out just readingyour bio for folks. Michael
mettesta is an online educatorusing social media to spread
ideas for a better future. Hisfast paced informative videos on
Instagram and Tiktok presentsustainability through the
lenses of economics and financeby explaining the systemic
nature of social problems, fromclimate change to inequality and

(00:44):
advocating for genuinesolutions. Michael encourages
people to imagine how the futurecould be better. I like the word
imagine, and I like the wordgenuine solutions. I think those
are really not paradoxicalwhatsoever. No, yeah, no,

(01:05):
yeah. I think, I think that itcould really be pretty awesome
if we pull pull this off. Soyeah, trying to, trying to put
that kind of utopian, optimisticspin on some of the messaging.
But yeah, genuine solutions,meaning I try to stay away from,
like, the the BS and kind of thegreen washy, like, you know,
metal straws type stuff. I mean,I have nothing against metal

(01:28):
straws, but that's not going tosolve the climate crisis. Love a
metal straw,yeah, right. And it's a yes, we
love a metal straw, and it's notgoing to solve the problem. Talk
about that kind of thing toomuch. Yeah, exactly. And I want
to talk more about those genuinesolutions. But first, I actually
just want to, like, kind of,before we talk about all of the
degrowths and the post growths,I want to bring the audience's

(01:48):
attention to something that Iread in your sub stack. You
reposted a very striking, likevisual diagram of the reach that
certain far right kind of mediapersonalities and outlets have
that is so disproportionate, itjust like gigantic compared to
more progressive media. And Ilove this quote that you wrote,

(02:13):
which is, quote, progressiveshave a media problem, and we
need a media solution. For me,personally, it's less about
Democrats versus Republicans,and more about building a
positive vision for the USA thatpeople can rally around. It's
time to invest in progressivecreators and storytellers and
let them do their thing. EndQuote, and I think I want to

(02:34):
dive into this first because ofhow many people I know deeply
agree with this, but are just alittle bit like, Okay, but how
to actually do the shift as astoryteller, and you share,
obviously, really engaging andclear information, you're one of
these people who is part of theshift. So can we unpack like,
what your approach is as astoryteller and how others can

(02:57):
kind of do their thing, asyou're saying. And one of the
things that I want to just put,like, as a sidebar, is the fact
that I think that, you know, oneof the things you've sort of
reflected is like reaching morepeople. And one of the things is
like showing people that you'relifting weights, and like, how
to reach new like, you know, newaudience, yeah. Like, the thirst
traps are really important forthis conversation, and not to be

(03:19):
taken lightly and not to be, youknow, kind of minimized. So tell
people, tell, tell the world,yeah.
Well, by by, by do your thing. Ithink that that actually means
something different for everyperson. So I don't think that
there's a cookie cutter way todo progressive media, but I
think that something we canlearn from some of these

(03:40):
creators who are on the right isthey're just presenting topics
that are interesting and fun totalk about, and then they weave
in politics. At some point, it'snot like a politics show, right?
Joe Rogan is not a politicsshow. He's not a politics guy.
He's just a cool guy who likeswrestling and asks fun questions
and like is entertaining tolisten to, and then he brings in

(04:03):
politics sometimes, right? So Ithink that's something that's
important to learn from, is theway that the right has really
taken like cultural topics,whether that's sports or
wrestling or video games and andkind of woven in some politics.
But the the reason they havesuch a big audience is just

(04:23):
because they're talking aboutstuff that people care about.
And I think, I think folks thatare on the progressive side can
can learn from that, because itcan be a little bit too on the
nose sometimes to, just like,listen to a politics podcast. I
think that's a very smallpercentage of the population
that wants that. And so, yeah, Iwas talking about this with some
friends, and I'm like, you know,I should really start showing

(04:44):
other parts of my personality,because if you look at my
channel, I'm guilty of this. Ijust go economics, you know,
climate, some of these topicsthat I think are so important,
but I'm realizing that for inorder to reach more people, I
might need to show that likeeight. I also like hiking, I
also like weightlifting, I alsohave hobbies. And so I think, I

(05:05):
think the left just needs morehobbies. Yeah, people on the
creators on the left need morehobbies. But to go back to your
question, I think that commentwas also that, that thing I
wrote was also about funding. Itwas also just about, yes, the
access to money. And I thinkthat's one of the most
challenging things about being acreator, a progressive creator
is like, where, where's themoney gonna come from? How are
you gonna make a living doingthis? I think the right has more

(05:28):
of a funded ecosystem for peoplewho are like, they find you and
they're like, Hey, here's here'sa check. Keep doing what you're
doing. And and in progressivemedia, that doesn't happen. All
the money is going to nonprofitsand white papers and op eds and
the New York Times, and I thinkwe're finally realizing that
that's not reaching the rightfolks, not reaching the average
American voter, if we're talkingwith the US lens. And so, yeah,

(05:52):
I also think that we need topush institutions to fund
progressive media in new ways.
But when it comes to the creatorand thinking about getting
involved. I think it's justlike, What is your angle? What?
How can you show yourself in arelatable way? And obviously,
like, use, use media strategyand work in formats that are
going to reach people, which issomething we can also go into.

(06:13):
But I won't bore you with all ofmy like, media random ideas. I
don't think it's boring. I thinkit's important to also be like,
if we can get more specific,feel free to share one of the
things also that I'm thinkingabout as you're talking is the
fact that the system is sorigged because not just the sort
of nature of a platform that ismore progressive, traditionally

(06:36):
being a little bit more narrowand pointed in the content, but
like, the content itself is not,it's like more right wing folks
are really talking about stuffthat invokes so much fear. And a
lot of it is also not based, infact, a lot of it is is, you
know, it like the nature of thecontent itself. It makes me feel

(07:00):
anxious, because it feels like arigged system. If you are
sharing the content that you aresharing, which is, like, here's
what's going on, here's asolution. It's just not going to
exist in the algorithm in thesame way. So like, yeah, sharing
like thirst traps at the gym is,like, totally one very tangible
way to counter that. But anyother thoughts on that

(07:21):
particular problem?
Yeah, I mean, I think thatthere's fear on on the right,
and I think that we can,especially on the climate side,
we do tap into that fear of justlike, oh my gosh, what's going
to happen if we don't changethis. But I would argue that
what, what feeds the, theattractiveness of the right is
not the fear, but sort of thethe promise of of a better

(07:43):
alternative, like unrigging thesystem to them typically means
maybe going back to somethingthat existed before, when maybe
the government wasn't so big, orall of these corporations
weren't so powerful. And I thinkthat we can learn from that in
terms of just trying to paint apicture of, like, what does this
better world look like? And Ilike to say, like, if we do pull

(08:05):
this off and actually transitionto a better economic system, a
more sustainable economy, like,there are so many benefits to
that that we don't talk about.
We're always just, like, stopthis bad thing from happening,
as opposed to, like, maybe wewon't have to work as much,
yeah, maybe the air will becleaner. Maybe there will be
more green spaces in our cities,more public transportation, you
know, less micro plastics in ourblood and our ball sacks. Maybe

(08:30):
our ball sacks will be happier,you know, more just more
healthy, exactly, yeah, and so,yeah, I don't know. I feel like
we can, we can do some of thosethat like envisioning, but we
often find ourselves justreacting to the bad things that
are happening and saying, No,not that, right? And I think we
need to try to move away fromfrom like, getting in the way of

(08:53):
things, and start painting avision of, like, where are we
going? What is that gonna feellike? It's gonna feel good. It's
gonna feel awesome. I think thata lot of people's lives will be,
will be quite a bit better andmore enjoyable. Yeah, and other
species too, not just people.
Yeah.
Side note I'm currently reading,and I just started Kate sopers

(09:14):
alternative hedonism, is thatit's a wonderful book. It's
called post growth economics,like alternative hedonism or
something, I need to read that.
Yes, you do. Yeah. I mean, Iadmit I'm like, on page 30, but
basically she's talking aboutthe fact that that is an
effective framing for thisconversation. And it's like,
totally the just like kind ofprogressive leaning media is

(09:38):
sort of having a brandingproblem, and climate kind of has
a branding problem. I think theframe, the words almost like
degrowth and post growth evokesomething that might not be as
good as what's currently goingon. And it's interesting for me
to start to think about it fromher perspective, which. It's

(09:58):
actually an alternative form ofhedonism to be like it's kind of
a thought that I've had for awhile, which is that we can tap
into our intrinsic nature to beselfish and to be selfish more
deeply, is actually to look outfor everybody. It's like looking
out for my needs, because thatends up benefiting everybody.
Don't necessarily depend onother people? Yeah, because I

(10:20):
depend on other people. So it'sactually being very selfish in a
good way, not to, like, twistthat word. And so that's just
kind of like a framing that Iwonder, if you think about and
talk about a lot, and like,where the discourse or actually
before, sorry, I'm getting tooexcited, because I feel like we
should talk those terms mean forthe audience. Can we take a step

(10:41):
back and define degrowth andpost growth and all the growth
that you talk about? Yeah,yeah. So, so I think of of post
growth as the wider umbrella.
It's imagining an economicsystem that doesn't depend on
constant growth. And the reasona lot of these ideas came about,

(11:04):
or the truth is these ideas havebeen around for a long time. A
lot of it is pulling fromindigenous wisdom that's 1000s
of years old and likely a lotolder than that. So some people
do say, hey, this isn't new. AndI'm like, Yeah, you're right.
It's not new, but, but thisframing is new because it's kind
of being brought into theWestern academic discourse for
the first time in this way. Andso post growth is kind of about,

(11:28):
let's reimagine the economicsystem. And the way one could
argue that, with the way theeconomy currently works, climate
change is almost an obviousconsequence, like growth means
more consumption every year.
More consumption means morewaste, more pollution. And so if
we just keep growing this thing,it's going to have consequences

(11:50):
for the environment. And sothat's what's happening. We're
kind of getting so big thatwe're pushing against the
ecological limits of the planet,and hence the plastic islands in
the ocean, hence the CO two inthe atmosphere, the biodiversity
loss due to land use foragriculture and other things
that we need to, like, harvestmore materials and feed this

(12:10):
economic beast that we've grown.
So post growth is saying, hey,what if we like, step out of
that framework and say, Whatcould the economy look like in
like a steady state, or in a ina world that's agnostic to
whether it's growing or not, andthat starts to shine a light on
why is growth required in thecurrent system? And it sort of
starts to unpack thosequestions. One of the reasons is

(12:31):
that corporations have to hittheir quarterly profits every
every quarter, and they need tokeep going up if they want to
keep, you know, investorsinterested. And so maybe that
isn't the right way to run aneconomy, necessarily, also like
the monetary system, this iskind of getting super wonky, but
kind of requires growth in orderfor the the economy to stay

(12:51):
afloat. Because money is beingissued based on debt, and to
repay that debt with interest,you need to create more wealth.
And so there's all of these,like systemic sort of
requirements for growth that arebaked in and post growth
economics is saying, hey, let's,let's think about an economy
that doesn't work that way. Whatwould, what would that look

(13:12):
like, and what kind of ruleswould we need to govern that?
Then just sidebar on that, orkind of like, you know, double
click is degrowth, which is alittle bit more of a indictment
of the growth based system, andsaying, like, actually, we
shouldn't be necessarily justlike growth agnostic. There are
certain industries that need toget scaled down. Like, we can't

(13:36):
just have fast fashion growingevery year. We can't we can't
have these huge oil companiesrequiring to grow every year,
right? So what would it looklike to actually plan a
transition away from some ofthese industries and scale them
down, and degrowth kind ofunpack those questions as to,
how would we do that? And it'sreally it's really meant people

(14:00):
are like, yeah, degrowth isn'tthe best marketing term because
it sounds like, you know, goingbackwards. And I think a lot of
people in the degrowth movementwould say that's the point. It's
kind of like saying it's like,meant to meant to shake you when
you hear it, as to like, this issomething so different from the
way we do things today. And itdoes unlock a lot of the
conversation about how, howabundant and fulfilling could a

(14:22):
life be in which we're not allkind of slaves to this
constantly growing economicsystem, and so it does have some
of those utopian things bakedinto it's not all like just
against something. I think it'sreally for a more equitable,
cooperative economy, right?
Like more of those things thatyou started getting at before I
realized that we should definethose terms first is like more

(14:44):
prosperity in all these areas oflife, that, yes, we could have a
better life. Imagine that. Imean, imagine that. And I think
that, again, the word imagine issomething that because of the
current economic system, there'sreally no space for people to
do. Do. And so I think, yeah,something I think about a lot is
just like how difficult it is tocarve in space to like, dream

(15:08):
and literally envision what yourlife could be like outside of
what it currently is. Wedon't really have time for that.
We don't have to in the currentsystem, no, and we, I think that
all of these kind of economictheories are an invitation to
slow down and to say, hey, what?
What could life be like if weweren't always hustling? It's

(15:29):
it's really a it's really ashift away from the kind of
hustle culture mindset of, like,grind it out, achieve your goals
by just doubling down andworking harder. It's like, well,
what's the point of workinghard, isn't it? Just so that you
can, you can have more time toyourself after so, like, what if
we skip the part where you grindfor like, 30 years and get sick,

(15:52):
you know, and like and like, endup with, like, a bunch of
physical ailments? It's, it'skind of like an invitation to a
to a healthier, more moreabundant, and I think more like,
arguably ecological and naturallifestyle that we've really
gotten away from ever since wekind of got onto this growth
treadmill.
Right? Totally. I want to alsoraise a kind of counter argument

(16:14):
to degrowth and post growth thatI feel like I think about a lot,
and I've had conversations withfolks who are aware of these
concepts, but for example, ownsmall businesses and who are the
kind of realisticness of it alllike when we it's so easy for us
to talk about these things fromour chairs, and it's so fun to
talk about them, and youobviously do more than just talk

(16:38):
about them, But from a granularperspective of how it actually
happens in, you know, practice,yeah, for like a small business
owner, to begin to try to engagein degrowth when they're trying
to keep their company afloat,or, you know, they're not
necessarily trying to, are wetalking to those people? Is that

(16:58):
the right question to ask? Arewe not talking to those people?
We're talking about the bigcorporate powers talking
to everyone, talking toeveryone. And yeah, let's talk
about how small businesses canapply degrowth. I think that's
actually a great question. It'snot. It doesn't mean stop
running your business, stopgrowing your business. Certainly
the companies that that need todegrow more urgently are the big

(17:24):
industries that are activelyharming the planet and creating
ecological destruction, like theones we mentioned. But small
businesses can take an ethos ofdegrowth as well. And that
doesn't mean, yeah, changing theway that you grow your company,
but I think it means changingthe way that you think about
running your company and the wayit's organized and where you get

(17:44):
capital and things like that.
It's kind of more tactical likethat. So for example, have you
considered giving your employeesequity in your business? Right?
Right? Employee Ownership andmore. Collective ownership is
one of the core tenets of a postgrowth economy, because it means
it's not just about growth. AndI think this is a really
important distinction. I thinkgrowth being such a key word to,

(18:06):
like, the, you know, it'sliterally in the term, we always
focus on growth, but it's reallyabout, like, this extractive
type of growth. I think that alot of folks and that that are,
you know, speaking about postgrowth, it's like, it's, it's
more about who's the growth for,right? And who gets to enjoy it,

(18:26):
and is it just the shareholdersand the people sitting at the
top, like the CEO, like, that'sthe problem. And so if you have
a small business, and you have,you know, profit that can be
shared with with your employees.
And by the way, they might belike, way more bought in and way
more interested in working foryou if you do give them some

(18:49):
ownership in your company.
That's one thing to consider.
Another is like, maybe don'ttake capital from companies that
require you to hit really,aggressive targets for growth,
who then are going to try toextract profit out of your
company as well? Like, moreventure capital models. So like,
are there other ways to raisemoney that are more like slow

(19:11):
capital? They call it, which islike more patient. They accept
lower returns, and they'rethey're generally more sort of
like socially oriented aroundthe investments they make. And,
yeah, like, what would it alsolook like to give back to your
community in some way, right?
Like, how do you how do youthink about the growth of your

(19:32):
company as a social good, asopposed to, like, this is just
for you and your pocketbook,and, you know, paying the
mortgage on your house, which,by the way, like totally hope
that you can afford yourmortgage. Yes, we can talk about
whether we can talk about, likesocial housing and all of that,
and whether everyone should needto take out a mortgage, but
that's kind of a separate topic.

(19:52):
The I think that really it's ashift towards growth for who,
especially at the smallerbusiness level, and. And if you
can apply some of thesecommunity oriented values to
your business, a whole new realmof ideas might open up and kind
of depends on your community anddepends on your business. But I

(20:15):
think that you as a businessowner will probably be more
fulfilled if you feel like yourcompany's success is improving.
This is is helping yourcommunity flourish. And I think
that's really like the shiftthat is that people are being
invited to make here.
Yeah, that is such a wonderfulanswer, because I have been
genuinely thinking about themore specific kind of pathways

(20:38):
for folks who aren't, you know,at billion dollar companies, for
though, for the bigcorporations, what would you say
for how we can voice our demandfor them to start incorporating
degrowth? Or is that, you know,like, how do we actually
approach the bigger guys? Yeah,that's or is it a regulatory

(21:01):
thing? Like, how much doespolicy play into this? This is,
like, the biggest question youcan ask, yeah, it's okay.
Let me solve the global economywith this answer here.
Buckle up. Like, it's more, justlike, you know, yeah. Like, what
does it take, yeah, for us toget to this point? Well, this is
what'sso interesting. And the reason
that we need to talk about it ata at an economic and policy

(21:24):
level too, is that a lot of CEOsfeel trapped by the growth
imperative as well, right? Like,there's a lot of really smart
people running these companieswho have ethics and who care
about the world. I mean, not allof them, but there are some who
are like, look, this is allreally cool. Like, that's a
great idea. Loved the book,whatever. But yeah, like, I need

(21:46):
to hit these numbers for mylike, next quarterly return,
otherwise I'll lose my job. Soto some extent it needs to be a
broader, like, economy or systemlevel conversation, but when you
get into the how, it's reallyhard, because there's so much
momentum carrying this thingforward, and so I do think

(22:07):
policy has to play a big role. Ido think that, you know, you
need, like, really smartregulation of some of these
industries. The issue there isthat regulation can have
unintended consequences. So it'sa quagmire. It's really
difficult, but different peopleare interested in different
angles. So like, there's thepolicymakers, there's the
business leaders, there's also,like, the spiritual leaders. I

(22:29):
think that if, if every one ofthese fortune 500 CEOs, like,
had a spiritual awakening in thehopefully in the next few years,
that would also be huge, right?
It's not like people need to getreconnected to their bodies in
the land and realize like, oh,you know, I have more leverage
than I thought to actually helpbring a better future about. But

(22:51):
it is tricky, and I do thinkthat some industries are going
to have to be dragged kickingand screaming into like, a post
growth future, and others aregoing to actually lead the way.
And I think we need to findthose business leaders who are
willing to lead the way and tomake some of those riskier
decisions and say, I'm going tochange a structural thing about
the way my company works, byimplementing employee ownership

(23:12):
plans, or by by Yeah, changingthe way that the bottom line
functions, so that there's somesort of social good that that
we're that we're generating, andthere are companies that are
starting to do this, and so Ithink we need to do a better job
of elevating those people andcompanies and making it cool to
do that. So there's a there'sthat cultural piece as well,
which I think is where socialmedia can can help. Yes,

(23:35):
totally. I think that that isone of our kind of prerogatives
as folks who try to shiftculture or storytelling these
issues is like just making itsexy, making it cool. Sometimes
that looks like just sharingthat you went to the gym and
lifted a lot of weight, andinstead, you know, like, there
is a secret, there is a way thatwe can tap into a little bit

(23:58):
more of our kind of primalright? Just what, what pings our
neurons from a primal level,yeah, yeah. And sharing also,
what, what you're doing aboutyour business, right? Like,
there's, there's a viral videogoing around, if you've seen it,
about Dr bronners and the waythat they have a that the CO
CEOs there have put a ceilingon. I think it's, yes, the, I
think it's the the top paidexecutives of the company can

(24:19):
only make seven times the lowestpaid full time employees. Yeah,
and like that just is asystemic, structural change that
they made that is awesome. It'slike it i The gap between the
CEO and the entry level employeeis so big at some many of these
companies, usually 100 times,sometimes even more than 1000
times, the income, and so just,just doing that, and then

(24:42):
talking about it is, like, sohuge. And then I think it's the
role of content creators in themedia to, like, shine a light on
those stories and be like, Lookhow cool this is. And and I
think that can slowly causedominoes to start to fall. Yeah,
I don't mean to grill you onthis, but I'm. So curious. Like,
why are there not as manymainstream like Patagonia models

(25:07):
or Dr Bronner's models? Why arethose companies so obvious, and
we know them because there areso few of them. Or am I in a
bubble, and I don't know howmany more are doing that? Like,
Why has it not caught on at theis it? I mean, it's kind of an
obvious answer, but I'm justlike, if it's so cool, which it
is? Is it a storytelling problemthat people just don't think of

(25:28):
it as cool? Yet, in this currentcultural moment and political
moment, I thinkit's, it's pretty new to happen
at this, at the scale of a largecorporation that is completing
competing in a global market, solike a Patagonia creates a lot
of waves because it is, it isnew, and there's no companies
that big that are really doingit. And so I do think that
that's a piece of it. I thinkthey, a lot of them would argue,

(25:52):
oh, it's just uncompetitive todo these sorts of things. But if
we see more companies make theseshifts and keep doing great,
then it sent it like it's kindof an emperor has no closed
moment of like, actually, thisis completely possible. And why
aren't you doing it too? And sothat social pressure, I think,
is starting to grow. I thinkalso, yeah, to your point, like,
there was a article by MiltonFriedman about, I forget the

(26:16):
exact headline, but I think itwas basically that the social
responsibility of a corporationis to grow its profits. And that
was the norm back in the in thekind of 70s, 80s, the Reagan
era, this era of deregulationand sort of a shift into, like a
very individualistic form ofcapitalism. And we're, we're
seeing a new shift now, of areturn to more of a collective

(26:38):
framing. But like I said, it'skind of a matter of dominoes
falling, and when are these big,big systemic shifts happening? I
think we're, I think we're atthe beginning of that turn,
which is why it feels likethere's these, these vignettes
of examples. But I think thatover the next few years, I
really, I really believe thatthat it will become a lot

(26:59):
more common. Do you believe thatin the context of kind of a
counter movement against what'scurrently going on in this
political moment, with what Ilove the term tech broligarchs,
because I'm thinking, I'mhearing you talk, and I'm
thinking about the Tesla carsalesman on the White House

(27:21):
lawn. And I'm wondering whatyou're thinking about, just this
current moment, with all ofthose concentrated powers, in
the context of what you'retalking about, which I also
believe in, in the future, canwe talk about the tech Burleigh?
So I think that what thesepeople represent is actually a

(27:42):
completely different vision forthe future than what most of the
world wants. I think thatthey're completely detached from
what people actually want. Andwhat I think they're envisioning
is a world where we they areleading the vanguard of humanity
into a colonization of space,Mars. Mars. Mars is just the
beginning, and they are cyborgsat that point, because they've

(28:07):
neuralink themselves, andthey're plugged into AI, and
they have all of these like antiaging technologies. They can
live as long as possible. And Ithink that they see themselves
as the leaders of a new versionof the human race that's going
to colonize other planets andharness the power of computers
and put them into their headsand optimize everything and make

(28:29):
everything more efficient. Andthey think that's super cool.
That's cool. No, that's notcool. No, I don't I think their
heads are so far up their ownasses that they think they're
like, like, really doingsomething that that the
population wants, but I thinkthat the rest of us are like,
no, actually, Earth's prettygood. We're pretty good with

(28:50):
Earth. Let's stop destroying it.
And can you please maybe, like,send yourself to Mars and not
come back, right? And if youwant to neuralink yourself up
there, go forit. Go ahead. That's your place
to do it. We're good over here.
We're cool with that. Yeah, goahead, yeah. Just like, don't
you don't have to come back.
Yeah, you actually can. You canstay there. Just run your run

(29:12):
your cyborg operation on Mars.
We don't want to hear from you.
If you send us the occasionalupdate, fine, we'll read it.
But, but the I really do thinkthat they see this as, like, the
the future that they that, thatpeople want. I think it's
because they read a couple scifi novels when they were kids

(29:32):
and decided, like, they're gonnabe like the Luke Skywalker kind
of figure it's, it's supernarcissistic. It's super
detached from, from what, whatnormal people actually want,
which is like, a good life, alivable planet, some free time,
time with their family, yeah,some parks to hang out in and
like to not have to slave awayjust to afford a studio

(29:54):
apartment. So I think thatultimately, it's a huge. Huge,
huge, huge difference in valuesand vision for the future. And I
think that what they've becomeis completely detached from any
sense of, like, their Corporalnature as a as a human body,
that's that's part of a systemthat's been here for a long
time. They have no interest inthat. And so I think that what

(30:17):
we can do is sort of shine alight on the on the importance
of like, being in your body,being connected to land, being
connected to nature, and showhow much healthier and happier
we can be than than they are.
Because I don't get the sensethat these people, whether it's
Elon Musk or Marc Andreessen orwhoever you want to point to, I
don't think they, they look veryhealthy or happy. They they look

(30:37):
pretty unhealthy. I don't reallywant to be them at all. I agree.
So I don't mean that's like,body shame them, but I mean,
like, maybe a little bit of thatwould help. Maybe a little bit
of that would help point thebody shaming towards the
billionaires who are, like,completely detached from from
the rest of society, and and,and I think, shine a light on
how kind of, kind of pathetictheir vision is, and how much

(31:00):
the rest of us don't want it,because only then I think, can
we can? Can we have that Emperorhas no closing moment when we're
like, Wait, these guys areleading us in direction we don't
want to go right? What else isthere? Yeah. And yeah, I know
that I didn't get to the Teslasales on the White House lawn
thing. No, you Yeah. I thinkthat he represents a vision that

(31:20):
a lot of these burlagarchs have,of them as leaders of society,
when really what we see them isas these almost parasitic
individuals who are just pullingwealth out of society, pulling
profit, pulling wealth uptowards the top, and then using
it for nothing that peopleactually want. We used to have

(31:42):
really rich people like buildinglibraries and monuments and
contributing to publicinfrastructure, right? And I
would be more okay with superrich people if they were
actually creating some sort ofsocial good. But in this case,
they're not. They think thatsocial good is is this future
sci fi plan, like, you know,plan that they have, and it's,

(32:04):
it's not at all what the peoplewant, it's
not what the people want. Andit's also in such opposition to,
I think, a lot of the voter basethat voted for Trump in this
election, and it's sofascinating to me to have

(32:24):
economy of like Trump being thepuppet of Elon Musk, because and
Maurice Mitchell was a fantasticrecent guest on this podcast.
It's great, yeah, of WorkingFamilies Party, and sort of
framed it in a way that waslike, Look, you know, Elon Musk
has a lot of companies that areregulated by the government. He

(32:46):
found an opportunity to, youknow, have more power in regards
to how his companies areregulated. And I think your take
on the vision that thebraligarchs have for themselves
as the folks who are going tolead us into this new way that
we're half cyborg, and it'sgoing to be great on Mars. Is

(33:08):
weirdly refreshing, because it'salso breaks down the seriousness
of all of this. I think it hasto be taken seriously, and we
have to also highlight how sillyit is. You know, yes, we're
being forcedto take it seriously, but it's
not serious. It shouldn't beserious. Unfortunately, they
have so much capital and so muchpower that we're all being
forced to take this vision veryseriously. And I think we all

(33:29):
need to just notice that it'snot at all what we actually want
to do. I don't know you. I don'twant to go to Mars. It's going
to be less fun than Earth. Ithink Earth's going to be the
place to be. You can go to Mars.
You can literallygo to Mars. You just go to the
desert in California, beautifuldesert. Utah, basically Mars.
Yeah, yeah. And gettingback to what you said about the

(33:50):
Trump base and whether theyactually want it, I don't think
that they want it all. And Ithink it's creating this very
interesting and importantdivision in the quote, unquote,
Maga movement between the thetech berlegard type, people who
see themselves as these, likesci fi visionaries, leaders of
the of the free world on Mars,or not so free, yeah, their
world, and they have, like thetoiling masses underneath them.

(34:14):
Aren't cyborgs and the the sortof middle America populist Maga
movement of folks who are, youknow, working class who who just
want a president who's going tostand up for them. And I think
that those people are startingto get very upset about Doge and
the cuts that are being that arehappening to the government,

(34:37):
because it's starting to affectthem and their families, and the
veterans getting fired, the parkrangers getting fired, and
they're starting to see, wait,this isn't helping me at all.
This is just kind of strokingthe ego of this man who thinks
he's gonna, like, get rid of thegovernment and replace it with
some tech company he's probablyworking on. Yeah, and so I
think, I think we need toremember that this vision that

(34:57):
the PROLOG arcs have. Of is soso so unpopular among the
general American public. And Ithink beating that drum is super
important, as opposed to justreacting to say, No, this is
bad. It's like, No, this is thisis actually not at all helpful
for the people who voted forDonald Trump. And I think a lot
of those people are actuallyfolks who who can be a part of

(35:19):
this vision for a better futurethat that you and I share, which
is something that is actuallygood for working people,
actually good for, you know, thecleanliness of the air and the
water and the and the earth, theland that we're sharing, and
that actually makes things moreaffordable. So that that, I
think gap is going to get widerand wider until, I hope Trump

(35:41):
kind of casts aside theberlegarx. That's not going to
solve all of our problems, butit will, I think, I think, be an
important turning point inhopefully Trump's second term.
Interesting, right? I'm justreplaying in my brain. It's all
computer. Everything's computer.

(36:02):
That was hilarious, that was soendearing, I was like, oh,
right, he's 80. This is when hegets in a Tesla, right?
Everything is computer.
EverythingI see, I love that. I love that
too. And like, you know, Iwouldn't put it past Joe Biden
to have said the same thing, no.
So, you know, but it justhappens to be, yeah, I think

(36:24):
about that a lot. Oh, so, Imean, I kind of want to do,
like, a slightly random pivot,okay, goal, unless you have
thought other thoughts on whatwe're well, we have, we could
talk about it for forever. Let'sshift gears. But I just want to
know, I won't like to focus onyou. Okay, that's okay. Wow,
yeah, I want to talk about yourstory a little bit. Will you

(36:47):
like share how you got to thisplace, and just think
illustrating to your path isreally helpful for folks
listening and for folks who justunderstand what a path looks
like,Yeah, happy to I think that my
path is a good example ofsomeone who takes a bit of a
winding road to get to thispoint, because I did study

(37:07):
economics, and when I graduatedfrom Stanford, I actually worked
at a consulting company. I didnot have a vision for my career
as a anyone with sort of, like asocial impact focus. I wanted
that, but I had no idea how tomake it happen. And I had no
idea how to make it happen rightout of college. So I ended up

(37:27):
leaving that and working in afew digital media companies I
was doing, like contentmarketing and also just just
marketing in the private sector.
So that was when I learned aboutmessaging and how to use social
media to grow audiences, but Ihad never really applied those
skills to what I felt were likethe most important issues. I was
just sort of, hey, you know, Ijust want to I want to succeed.

(37:51):
I want to make some money andkind of just do the career
thing, yeah, not try to shake,rock the boat too much. But it
wasn't until, like, my late 20s,that I was like, Okay, I had a
bit of, like, a meaning crisis,or like, you could call a
quarter life crisis, where I waslike, I just feel disconnected
from the issues that reallymatter. And I, at that point, I

(38:12):
learned about post growth anddegrowth and all of these ideas
that I'm so passionate aboutnow. And I had a moment where I
was like, should I go to gradschool and study these things
and become an expert and anacademic? Or should I, like,
build on the skill set that Ialready have to and see what I
can do? I don't know what Ididn't know what that'll look
what that would look like, butit basically meant taking like

(38:35):
this, the marketing skills andthe communication skills from
the private sector, and thenkind of applying them into the
ideas that I care most about,which were climate change and
economic reform and likeprogressive politics and things
like that. And so yeah, it was avery winding road that that I
was kind of a late bloomer, youcould say in terms of when I got
to these, this type of work. Butin a way, it has made all the

(39:00):
difference, because it it meantthat I had a skill set that I
was able to apply to themovement once I arrived at the
movement, right? And so I thinkthat that is that's completely
okay to, like, build some skillsoutside of the movement and in
the nonprofits, in the publicsector, in the private sector,

(39:20):
wherever you can find a way tomake money and support yourself,
and then maybe, you know, find away to take a leap into this
type of work when the time isright. And for me, that that
happened, like, close to when Iturned 30 and and then, yeah, I
kind of, I kind of was, like,ready to hit the ground running
at that point, because I knewhow to use social media. I I

(39:42):
knew how to how to think aboutcontent strategy and things like
that, and so I didn't have to,just like, completely figure it
out from from square one, I sortof had a bit of loaded dice to
run with in terms of, you know,getting into the media game.
And I think that, you know. Yourexample is one of many where,

(40:02):
you know, you say winding road,and I feel like everybody's path
is kind of a winding road, in away, totally and, and it's
wonderful that, you know,another thing that you're
highlighting is, just likeeverybody has a very unique
skill set. Everybody has thatlevel of, you know,
specialization to some degree,or to any degree, that they are
at least passionate about, andmaybe there's overlap with what

(40:24):
you're also good at and what youhave experience in and like,
what I'm also hearing from youis a level of curiosity, which I
think is a critical ingredientin this whole formula as well,
is just being curious about,like, what would happen if I
didn't go to grad school but Ijust started, or what would it

(40:45):
look like to kind of pivot?
Because that's another thing, isthat a lot of folks are in your
in your were in, where you were,you know, which is like, oh,
okay, I am doing somethingprofessionally that is not
necessarily aligning perfectlywith what I think my highest
expression of my like self or mycontribution to the world could
be, but not needing to do like ahard pivot, or go to grad school

(41:10):
or all that stuff, but slowlyincorporate, yeah, values,
exactly.
It was more like taking babysteps. So instead of immediately
quitting my job and shiftingeverything, I started to
freelance as a, as a freelancemarketer, and then kind of made
that. Made time for me to startmaking videos and to start
taking classes on this stuff andto join online communities and

(41:32):
things like that. So it wasreally a slow transition, until
it was like three years in thatI went full time as like a, as a
media content creator talkingabout these issues. And so it
was a slow, slow transition. ButI think sometimes we really want
it to be super fast, and we can,we can steer ourselves into into

(41:53):
a point of almost likedesperation, where we don't know
how to make ends meet if we, ifwe try to go too fast. So I'm
not saying don't take the leap.
Some people I think should takethe leap. I'm just not that kind
of person. I needed to, I neededto work my way to that leap.
Yes, you know, stick my toe inbefore I took the jump into the
deep end. And that's just,that's just the way I am. Yeah,
but now I'm happy to be at apoint where I'm able to fully

(42:14):
focus on these topics and try tomake as much of a impact as I
can. Yeah,I love that. Can we extrapolate
a couple more tangible thingsfor people who are listening, of
course, my thought was to askyou to share, like a five minute
action item and like a longerterm action item in terms of

(42:37):
just the conversation aroundslowly moving the needle towards
a post growth economy, yeah,what can I do if I pick up the
phone? What can I, you know,like, what can I do tangibly,
and then also, yeah, what's mylonger term way that I can
contribute in small and slow andsteady ways? There's,

(43:01):
there's many ways in and so Ithink one of the best things you
can do is just go out intonature and just spend some time
there, maybe even by yourself.
Just be safe. Obviously, I havemale privilege to say, I just go
out into nature by yourself.
Bring pepper spray, and alsomaybe bring a friend,
definitely, or and like, don't,don't go in a bear country. And
if you can even access nature.
But yes, exactly. But if youcan, yes, that that was, like,

(43:23):
very essential, because that onething I didn't mention is that I
took some time to just go on alot of hikes by myself during
this period. And I was like, Oh,this is why I'm kind of unhappy.
And solitude in nature can be,can be very clarifying. If you
can, if you can find a way. Ilearned to meditate during that

(43:45):
time. I think, like these, thesespiritual practices that
encourage us to slow down and toactually be in our bodies open
up doorways into like practicalactions we can take. And so for
some people, that's yoga. Forsome people, that's breath work.
So I think there's a lot ofthings that like seem tangential

(44:06):
or seem irrelevant that areactually super, super relevant.
I think to to making some ofthese shifts in terms of your
work, because when you get moreinto your body, and you slow
down, I think it changes the waythat you perceive the world,
that you exist in the world.
Obviously, there's books, right?
There's incredible books aboutthis stuff. I mean, I don't know

(44:29):
where to begin with the bookRex, but I think for me, less is
more. By Jason Hickel was anincredible introduction to
degrowth donut economics. ByKate Raworth was an incredible
introduction to, sort of todonut economics, and also, kind
of post growth thinking,braiding sweetgrass by Robin
wall Kimmerer was sort of likethe spiritual angle that I

(44:50):
really needed on that. So thoseall helped me out. I think also,
like, very tangibly, don't do italone. Find community in person
or online. There are peopleorganizing in your community,
doing important work, whetherthat's mutual aid or it's
political organizing, or it's,you know, some form of

(45:10):
ecological restoration orguerrilla gardening, or, like,
you know, composting groups,right? Like there's all sorts of
stuff. Try just getting into acommunity and doing some of the
stuff with your hands. I thinkthat really helps. And for me,
it was during the middle of thepandemic, so I was actually

(45:32):
joining these spaces digitally.
I joined a few online classes,became a member of certain
instant like the post GrowthInstitute is really cool. They
had, they had some onlinecourses during the pandemic. And
so I think, like, those are all.
That's my laundry list of thingsyou could do in the immediate
term. Yeah, I love that. Andthen yeah, the longer term, one

(45:54):
is harder, but I just would say,don't I think the lesson from me
was you don't need to completelyreinvent yourself immediately.
Just think, what do I know now?
And how could I use those skillsto work towards towards a better
future? And that will just bethe next step on a pathway that

(46:17):
you actually don't have any ideawhat's on that path. Don't try
and see five years out, justsee, like five days out. What
can I do right now to apply whatI know to the things that I care
about and I think the path willjust reveal itself. I
totally agree with you. Thankyou for sharing that it's
important to come back to theconcept of just being in your

(46:41):
body. And I wish that Elon Muskhad heard what you just shared.
Send this to Elon. Send this toElon. Elon, if you're watching
go touch grass, basically tellyou chill out. Just chill out a
little bit. Yeah. I think it'sthings that a lot of people are

(47:03):
kind of like, Yeah, I know, youknow, I know, right, but it's,
it's for a reason, I wouldsay, just one more book I want
to plug really briefly, becauseit's really important in this
current moment. Yeah, is hope inthe dark by Rebecca Solnit. She
wrote it during the the openingof the Iraq War, and sort of
about the progressive movementand how it felt like a really
terrible moment, really terribletime, the election didn't go

(47:26):
their way, and then basicallythe bombs kept falling. And it's
a really, really powerfulreminder of the fact that it is
not a straight line towards abetter world. It is a winding
road, and there are a lot of upsand downs, and we need to not
just push for the UPS, but alsoremember history and remember

(47:47):
how far we've come, and themovements that we're actually
part of that we might not evenknow that we're a part of, and
the ancestors that have beenworking towards this for
generations and just really,really grounding book on how to
stay hopeful, which does notmean optimistic necessarily. It
doesn't mean that you you are,like, really sure everything's
gonna work out, but actionrequires having some belief that

(48:11):
the action is gonna beimportant, and so hope is really
essential for that. Yeah, so Ithink that that that book is one
that I have returned to in thelast few weeks, last few months,
and is like hitting harder thanit ever has for me. It's really
beautiful. Wow,yeah, it's in such a contrast to
what I have felt has been in thelast couple months, kind of like

(48:34):
toddlers throwing a tantrum andthrowing spaghetti sauce and
everything at the wall and justcreating chaos. And what I think
we're trying to do is understandthe fact that this is our lives
and and this deep shift that weare currently trying to build
take a lot of time, becausethat's just how it works on this

(48:57):
planet. Things just take time.
Things that sustain takes time.
That's how I think about it alittle bit. So that's really
helpful, and it's important tobe ready for those moments of
high elasticity when everythingchanges quickly. Yes. So this,
this idea that, like we can kindof prepare ourselves, internally

(49:18):
and within our communities, formaybe a crisis, or for maybe a
moment when things start tobreak, but we're actually kind
of ready, because we've beenthinking about it, we've been
working on it, we've beenreading about it, we've been
talking about it, we've beenliving it. And I think that if
we are simply doing the work inthe background, eventually it's
all going to pay off. Whether ithappens, it's not going to

(49:40):
happen exactly the way we wantit. To a really powerful example
of this just happened in LosAngeles, my hometown, which
which burned in the fires, thePalisades fire and the Eden fire
in Altadena. But what was sobeautiful about that for me is
that, you know, people, peoplethink, oh my gosh, we need to
prepare for these crises by likebuying guns and like hoarding
food and toilet paper. Super andwe have billionaires building

(50:01):
bunkers because they thinkthey're gonna need to, like,
protect themselves from, like,armed mobs. But what happened in
the fires? There was no violencebetween community members. There
was simply an an A pouring outof support for people who needed
help. There was incrediblemutual aid operations set up,
like on the fly, giving peoplefood, clothing, electronics,

(50:25):
like everything they couldpossibly need to get back on
their feet. And that all poppedup almost immediately. And it
gave me such faith that, likewhen these quote, unquote crises
come, and that was definitely acrisis, right, that we're all
gonna actually help each otherout. And it was the folks who
have been involved in mutual aidin the past who, like, really

(50:46):
were leaders in that situation.
But you don't need to be amutual aid leader to
participate. I'm not. I'm not aleader in that space. But I
showed up and I, like, unpackedboxes, and I handed, handed
things to people in the caravanof cars driving by, and I
helped, like, sweep up debrisand things like that, right?
Like it. You don't need to bethe visionary. There are
actually people doing the workalready who we can learn from

(51:06):
and who can step into leadershiproles when the crisis comes. And
so don't this. This idea that weall need like a bunker to
survive the coming future isjust not true at all. Those
people are going to be so lonelyand so out of touch, and they're
going to realize, like, theyspent $100 million on this
bunker for no reason, becauseactually, like, people are out
there, helping each other,feeding each other, housing each

(51:29):
other, and it's going to bereally beautiful. Ideally, we
avoid as much of the of thenegative consequences as
possible by, like, building amore sustainable society and
economy as quickly as we can.
But I don't think that emergencyis an opportunity for violence.
I think it's an opportunity forcommunity. And that's what we

(51:50):
saw in LA, really cool. Knowyour neighbors, yeah? Know your
neighbors, go talk to yourneighbor. Actually, that is the
most important thing you coulddo right now. Probably, yes.
Books, yes, hikes, yeah. Talk toyour neighbors. Talk to your
neighbors. Youdon't have to be besties. You
don't have to be like, you know,like this, but just have their
phone numbers. Know, theirnames, go, go, literally, not
just someone next door and nextdoor, but really your neighbors.

(52:12):
Yeah,just, just Yeah. Get to know
them. Get the exactly, get theirnumbers, maybe share like eggs
every once in awhile, yeah, yeah. In this
economy, yeah. Everyoneneeds eggs. Everyone needs an
egg plug. Thankyou, Michael, I have like, the
most rapid fire thing ever,which is, what are your climate
superpowers,synthesizing complex ideas and

(52:36):
translating them into digestiblesound bites for people to
understand quickly. I love that.
Thank you. No problem. Thankyou. Michael, yeah, no problem.
So happy to have talked to you.
This was really fun. Thanks forhaving me. Thank you.