January 7, 2025 • 35 mins
Growing up in a working-poor family, State Representative Joe Miller (OH-53) brings a gritty, firsthand perspective to the table that challenges the status quo. Our discussion weaves through Joe's life experiences and combines them with insights from Matthew Desmond’s "Poverty by America" to expose the harsh realities of poverty and the systems that cement it. Together, we question the efficacy of political campaign spending and school voucher programs, and how they might unintentionally deepen the chasms of inequality they aim to bridge.
The conversation pivots to the overpowering economic influence in politics, unpacking the staggering sums funneled into political advertising and the media's role in shaping public opinion. We reflect on how the middle class, once the backbone of democracy, has been increasingly sidelined by a wealth gap that grows ever wider. The notion that addressing this wealth gap is a provocative one, challenging the priorities of today’s billionaires as well as the affluent, and their potential impact on democracy.
Our dialogue culminates in a critical examination of education funding and the role of billionaires in government. As an educator, Joe shares poignant stories of hungry students whose potential is stifled not by ability, but by basic unmet needs. We critique the school voucher system's unintended consequences of increasing segregation and undermining public education.
Finally, we underscore the urgency of separating wealth from government to preserve the democratic ideals upon which our society is built. Engage with us on social media and YouTube as we explore these complex intersections of poverty, politics, and education.
Nashville Public Education Foundation Study
Federal Elections Commission Data
WOSU Story on Ohio School Voucher Study
Get the Book, Povery, by America excerpt from Chapter 9 Tear Down The Walls pages 161-165
Survive Everyday on Bluesky
Adam on TikTok
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Adam (00:10):
Welcome back to the Survive Everyday podcast.
In our special series, spark ofChange, we're diving deep into
a really important issue poverty.
I'm your Adam Gercak.
In our past episodes we'vetalked about how big companies,
while trying to make a profit,can sometimes keep people stuck
in poverty.
They create systems that makeit hard for people to escape
(00:32):
difficult situations.
It's a complicated system we'reall a part of, but
understanding how it works isthe first step towards making
things better.
After talking to my friend Jerry, I decided to reach out to some
of the people who actually makethe decisions our elected
officials.
State Representative Joe Miller, who represents my district,
ohio 53, was the first torespond.
(00:53):
We had a really interestingphone call.
He was honest with me and headmitted that he wasn't an
expert on poverty issues, and Iappreciated his honesty because
I was more interested in hearinghis own thoughts and
experiences than a poverty issue.
We later met at the library fora much larger conversation.
We covered so much ground thatit's impossible to fit it into
(01:14):
one episode.
Today we're going to connect twothings that seem like they
should help but might actuallyhave some unintended
consequences.
Huge spending on politicalcampaigns.
People think that spending tonsof money on ads will get more
people to vote, but who reallybenefits from all that spending?
And school voucher programsthese programs give public money
to private schools.
(01:35):
Some people believe that thiswill give all kids a better
education, but does it really?
Or does it just take the moneyaway from our public schools and
give it to private schools,which might make the problem
worse?
Joe may not be an expert onpoverty policy, but he's
definitely lived through some ofthe challenges we're discussing
.
His experiences have helped usunderstand how wealth, power and
(01:56):
opportunity really work in oursociety, and I think a great
starting point for ourdiscussion is understanding
Joe's background and how itshapes his worldview.
Rep Joe Miller (02:05):
So I started well, I started college, if you
want to call it that, as I wasworking a couple jobs coming out
of high school.
I was either going to go in themilitary or go work at Ford or
Norton or a factory.
We were a family of kind oflike working poor, trying to
work your way out of poor Familyof seven, five kids, kind of a
(02:27):
mixed marriage, and so my dadtook my mom's two older kids and
then had three more.
I'm being the middle of thosethree more.
Adam (02:36):
Oh, so we're both middle children, yeah.
Rep Joe Miller (02:39):
And he started this young and in his 20s,
during the 70s, when the economywas not that great.
It was, uh, tumultuous, we hadhigh inflation at the end.
It was a lot going on in the70s.
So, uh, he would factory, layhim off, then he'd go back and
you know that kind of thing.
And it wasn't until he got intoa supervisor role and my mom
(03:00):
kids were old enough my sisterwas old enough for us four boy,
older boys to watch her that shewent off and and stopped and
stopped just cutting hair tomake some side money.
With her license beauticianlicense at that time it was
called she went off to work fora doctor in an office and you
start working your way out ofthat working poor.
So it was nice.
(03:20):
You're no longer having puffedrice and powdered milk for
breakfast or free and reducedlunches and you kind of felt
like, hey.
But I also saw my dad grind andso I felt that's what you need
to do.
And it is still true that youknow grinding is rewarding and
it helps you get where you wantto go most often, unless things
(03:40):
are stacked against you.
So I went to community collegebecause I ended up not going in
the service, not going to workfor a factory.
I already had like three jobs.
I was enjoying teaching martialarts and doing a couple other
things and after two years inthe college in business, when I
decided I wasn't going to openmy own dojo, my parents helped
me decide that they're likethere's absolutely no way I'm
(04:02):
going to invest in that with you.
We don't have much money in thefirst place.
So I left for Bowling GreenState University and transferred
to international business, gotout there, missed working with
kids and adults, ended upchanging my major to education.
Graduated with a bachelor's ofscience and a secondary
education, came out, taughtthree years and two in Texas
technically three in Texas.
(04:22):
but two of those years of thethree in Texas were in a
alternative school which wasbasically alternative to jail or
juvenile.
So I got to see a lot of thesocial impacts on kids learning
and growing and maturing anddeveloping and how that was very
challenging.
And I thought, you know, wow, Ireally had it rough.
No, I didn't, I actually had itpretty good.
(04:43):
I thought you know, wow, Ireally had it rough.
No, I didn't, I actually had itpretty good.
You know we may have wore gradsale clothes a lot of times and
had, you know, not the best offood and froze.
You know, went and got breadand froze in the freezer, kind
of thing.
Adam (05:00):
But there were people that were in the body or other areas
.
If you remember MatthewDesmond's book Poverty by
America, he talks about theexperiences Joe went through.
Now it's important tounderstand that poverty isn't
the same for everyone.
When white people experiencepoverty, it's often different
from what people of colorexperience.
White people living in povertyusually don't live in
neighborhoods where there's alot of other poor people, so
(05:21):
their experience of povertymight be a little different.
Joe, even when he was a youngcollege graduate, understood
this.
He faced challenges growing up,sure, but his struggles weren't
exactly the same as the kids hetaught at his alternative
school.
Eventually, joe got a job inmanagement in the corporate
world, but then 9-11 happenedand that completely changed the
(05:42):
course of his career again.
Rep Joe Miller (05:45):
So I ended up in business anyway.
And then 9-11 happened and thatcompletely changed the course
of his career again.
So I ended up in businessanyway and then 9-11 hit and
decided it was time to either,you know, continuing working in
management and business or goback to education.
And I kind of left it up to Godand said, hey, you know, at
that time after 9-11, nobody washiring and so I was in between
jobs.
It just happened.
I thought it was a vacation.
I thought, hey, this is great,I'm single, no kids.
(06:06):
You know my rent's low.
I got good money piled asideand I blew through it because of
9-11.
And we were talking earlier offthere or on there or whatever,
about unemployment.
I was like, you know, that'sunemployment for those who can't
get the job, and I just didn'thave a really good, mature
understanding of howunemployment works.
So I never went and got it andI just blew through everything I
(06:28):
had until I got the next job.
And it was funny, I left thedecision up to God and got a
call immediately after I didthat from a school district in
Lurien County and I was over inCuyahoga County at the time, and
so I came back home, came backhome, taught at Firelands for
about 17 and a half years, metmy wife and a couple kids and
(06:49):
things are great.
And so, while I was moving backhome, my wife and I, after
starting a little starter homein Vermillion, we all decided we
wanted to move back closer tothe family while raising kids
and built my development.
And, of course, there's alwaysan issue.
There's always an issue thatcomes about, and so there was a
(07:13):
local issue that the citycouncil wasn't handling.
My neighbors were like hey, youteach government, you know
government, you understand it.
Would you go advocate on ourbehalf?
What?
I recognize that I did have theknowledge behind it and a skill
set there, and I enjoyedadvocating for my neighbors, and
(07:34):
so I became a city councilmanright after that.
Adam (07:37):
Joe later went on to run for statewide office the current
office he holds now.
While we were discussing whypeople sit out on elections, he
talked about the harsh realitiesof getting elected to a larger
statewide office.
Rep Joe Miller (07:48):
I tell this story.
It's embarrassing, it's sad andit's embarrassing that there's
some truth to this.
I remember there's one thingrunning for city council.
Like you know your name as youwin it was city-wise 12,000
people, which is still a smalltown in Amherst and I'm trying
to meet every door and talk toeverybody.
It didn't matter, R D,independent, non-affiliated, did
(08:11):
not matter.
I wanted to meet with them,talk with them, and it's easier
to do that.
But when I ran for state officein the House of Representatives
, you have 124,000 people.
You have a larger area to cover.
You're not going to be able todo that.
You're not going to be able tohit every house.
And so the one thing that Isaid to some of the people that
(08:34):
came together on my team andwere giving me feedback, I said
hey, I do not have a largepercentage of Hispanic and
African-American members in mycommunity and if I'm going to
represent them, I need to getout there and hear from them and
(08:54):
find out what their issues areand how we can make sure
government's working for them,and find out what they're
willing to do.
And I remember one of thepeople there who had been around
politics for a long time saidwhat are you doing?
You only have so much time andresources.
Why do you care about a groupof people who don't vote Because
(09:19):
they're not going to help?
You get elected and you can'tdo anything in office.
If you're not elected, youcan't get there.
So all the great things youwant to do for them, or elected,
and you can't do anything inoffice if you're not elected,
you can't get there.
So all the great things youwant to do for them or others,
you can't do.
So you need to spend all yourtime and effort where the votes
are coming from.
And I was somewhat appalled bythat because I was coming from
the opposite direction.
And a true story and anembarrassing story is I remember
(09:42):
when I was running for citycouncil, the first time I ran as
an independent, and that'sbecause I mean I'm a centrist
dem but but I still believe inthe democratic party.
Right now I'm still strugglingwith some of the the ideas and
how they they view America, butin the end, this is an easy call
for me to be a democrat,regardless of some of the
changes.
I ran as an independent becauseI got in late, after the
(10:05):
primary petition deadline.
But I got in and I wanted tomake sure that I was going to do
a really, really good job formy constituents and my neighbors
and I wanted to make sure I wasprepared so that I wouldn't
waste their time or embarrassthem or whatever.
I was prepared so that Iwouldn't waste their time or
embarrass them or whatever.
(10:26):
So I spent a lot of timelearning the budget, what was
going on in city council, howthey ran their meetings, who was
in all that part.
I spent time trying to getelected not near enough time.
And guess what?
Because I was an independentand because I didn't spend as
(10:47):
much time trying to get elected,I just thought, well, I mean,
I'm going to be the mostknowledgeable person on the
ticket.
They should see that thatdoesn't happen.
People are not engaged.
They don't know.
They don't know about that.
They just want to know thatyou're going to go out there
meet them listen to them, andthen you're going to try to do
your best in that position.
Adam (11:02):
Okay, listen, money in politics is a huge deal.
I talked about this with Joeand it really blew my mind.
He told me just to getreelected to his state office,
he had to raise a quarter of amillion dollars.
Can you imagine how much moneyyou need to run for something
like Congress?
So who's actually giving allthis money?
(11:22):
You and me Not really Notenough to make a real difference
.
At least.
It's mostly big corporations,super rich people and those
powerful lobbying groups.
The amount of money flowinginto these campaigns is
mind-boggling.
So I asked Joe a simplequestion.
Rep Joe Miller (11:39):
Is it?
Adam (11:40):
far off for a regular person like myself, or like
anybody else, to say if you'vegot a large corporate donor,
you're beholden to them.
Is that far off?
Rep Joe Miller (11:48):
No, I think that's accurate.
I think that that's not anuncommon thing, to be honest
with you.
I think it happens more thanpeople believe, but I will say
there are legislators on bothsides of the aisle who say OK,
thank you.
Thank you for helping me getelected.
Adam (12:10):
But know that I'm not always going to agree with you.
Ok, so the last presidentialelection, over three billion
dollars were raised and spent.
That's insane.
According to the FederalElection Commission, a huge
chunk of that went towards ads.
You know those commercials yousee everywhere trying to
convince you to vote for acertain candidate, often just
mudslinging back and forth.
Since candidates can't knock onevery single door, they rely
heavily on TV and radio andthose stoop mailers.
(12:32):
You get in the mail.
But here's the problem All thispolitical advertising drives up
the cost of advertising ingeneral.
Small businesses can't competewith the massive campaign
budgets.
They get priced out of themarket, making it harder for
them to reach customers.
Before the 1980s, in the Reaganadministration, things were
different.
The government had stricterrules about how many radio and
(12:54):
TV stations a single companycould own.
This was to prevent a few bigcompanies from controlling
everything.
Back then, stations weresupposed to serve the public
interest, meaning they had toprovide a variety of programs
and local.
But then the rules changed andthings got crazy.
Big corporations started buyingup tons of stations, squeezing
(13:14):
out smaller ones.
Competition disappeared and allthe stations started to look
and sound the same.
Local news got cut and itbecame all about making money.
Now, during election season,these huge media companies think
iHeartRadio, disney, nbc,amazon they're raking in cash
(13:35):
from political ads, Billions ofdollars flowing straight into
the pockets of these massivecorporations run by billionaires
.
Remember those old independentradio stations, the ones that
really cared about theircommunity?
They're mostly gone now,replaced by these giant
companies, and it makes youwonder, doesn't it?
How does all this power andmoney concentrated in the hands
(13:59):
of a few actually affect ourdemocracy?
Is a billionaire, an ethicalperson typically.
Rep Joe Miller (14:06):
I don't want to speak to somebody's moral,
ethical fiber.
I think that the economy is setup and structured that way.
I think if you get yourbillionaire billions by taking
advantage of others andmistreating them and being
unjust to them in their wagesyou're paying them, whatever it
may be the environment, the workenvironment you're creating for
(14:27):
them then, yes, they could bemorally bankrupt.
I just think our country listenwhen Reagan came in.
We are at 70% tax for thewealthiest, Middle class was
possible, it was booming, it wasbig, it was there Even after
the inflation of the 70s and thebig oil embargo and all that,
(14:49):
it still was there.
A democracy in a democraticrepublic, a democracy, is built
on the foundation of the middleclass.
It just is.
They're the ones that are mostinvolved, they're the ones that
vote, they're the ones that paythe taxes, the most taxes.
What have you?
You can say, oh, the superwealthy are paying more because
they're paying 70%.
Well, there's not that manysuper wealthy, we don't have
billionaires out there.
(15:09):
The amount of money from the topto the bottom worker, from the
CEO to the bottom worker, thatratio has grown so substantially
.
That gap has gotten so largethat people have lost touch with
their workers, with their entryemployees.
Because you know what, inAmherst, when I grew up the
doctor, the dentist or maybe thepresident of the bank you could
(15:31):
tell that you knew whose homethey were.
But guess what?
Their home was mixed withineverybody else's or was off on
the street, yeah, but guess what?
They drove off of that littlecul-de-sac where there may have
been a couple nice homes were,but then they were there with
the rest of them.
And today you making you'remaking that kind of money you're
in a gated community, you're ina, in an hoa, where certain
(15:52):
price, certain looks, all thisother stuff there's.
There's ways to I don't callredlining, but there's ways to
make it so that you don't haveto be around those that are not
in your economic class.
So I don't think there's asmuch of a racial divide and
warfare out there, or evengender we could talk about on
(16:16):
another podcast maybe, but but Ido believe that this wealth gap
is causing the biggest problemsfor our democracy right now.
Does that mean we have to go toelon and say you're now going to
become a millionaire?
No, but I promise you buildingrockets and going to become a
millionaire.
No, but I promise you, buildingrockets and going to Mars is
cool, it's kind of sexy.
(16:37):
I guess it seems neat and great.
But the amount of good youcould truly do for America On
this planet, on this planetright, it could be done by
shoring up social security bythose.
Did you catch that?
Adam (16:52):
He said, and I'm paraphrasing here I don't think
race is the biggest problemright now, but I do believe the
gap between the rich and thepoor is causing the most damage
to our democracy.
He's basically saying thatinstead of focusing on things
like race, we should be moreworried about the fact that the
super rich are so out of touchwith the rest of us.
(17:13):
He explained that when we weregrowing up, doctors, lawyers and
other successful people livedin the same neighborhoods as
everyone else.
It wasn't this huge divide likewe see today.
Now the super rich live intheir own little worlds, only
interacting with otherbillionaires.
Matthew Desmond describes thisphenomenon as a wall.
Back to the book.
(17:34):
[Chapter 9 pages 161-165] Thereis one final step we must take
Our walls, they have to go.
We have revised our textbooksand renamed our holidays to
acknowledge the harms ofcolonialization.
We have begun the work ofremoving marble statues and
changing street signs inrecognition of the horrors of
slavery.
But do we not act as modern-daysegregationists when we
(17:56):
mobilize to block an affordablehousing complex in our
neighborhood?
Do we not colonize the futurewhen we reserve spaces there for
our children while denyingother children a fair shot by
deconcentrating poverty inschools and communities?
Integration blunts its sting.
Simply moving poor families tohigh-opportunity neighborhoods
(18:17):
without doing anything toincrease their incomes improves
their lives tremendously, evenif they remain below the poverty
line.
They become less poor in thesense that their exposure to
crime drops and their mentalhealth improves and their
children flourish in school.
Studies have found that eachyear that poor children spend in
a high-opportunity neighborhoodincreases their income and
(18:40):
adulthood, so much so that theiryounger siblings experience
bigger gains than their olderbrothers and sisters because of
the additional years spent in asafer and more prosperous place.
Additional years spent in asafer and more prosperous place.
Yet even the most ambitiousanti-poverty proposals in wide
circulation today, such as auniversal basic income, often
(19:00):
leave segregation untouched.
It's disappointing like we'vegiven up on the problem, as if
the best we can do is create anation that is separate but a
little less unequal.
When the affluent and poor livedesperate lives, any
institution or program whichonly the poor rely becomes
vulnerable.
It's easy to support closing apublic school when your kid
(19:22):
doesn't attend, or approveaggressive policing tactics when
you know it won't be yournephew who gets patted down.
But when families across theclass spectrum send their
children to the same schools,picnic in the same parks and
walk the same streets, thosefamilies are equally invested in
those schools, those parks,those streets.
(19:42):
Besides, let's admit it,segregation poisons our minds
and souls.
When affluents live, work, playand worship mainly alongside
fellow affluents, they can growinsular, quite literally
forgetting the poor.
It brings out the worst in us,feeding our prejudices and
spreading moral decay.
Engaging with one another inintegrated communities allows us
(20:05):
to recognize our blind spots,desiloing our lives and causing
families well above the povertyline to become bothered by the
problems that affect those belowit.
As Nietzsche wrote, one mustwant to experience the great
problems with one's body andone's soul, and I'd count
poverty among the great problems.
Integration means we all haveskin in the game.
(20:27):
It not only disrupts poverty ona spiritual level.
Over time it can foster empathyand solidarity.
This is why opposingsegregation is vital to poverty
abolitionism.
If we lowered our walls and madeit possible for poor families
to move to high-opportunityneighborhoods, some would and
some wouldn't.
Poor neighborhoods, after all,are not just that.
(20:51):
They are often the wellspringfor family and familiarity,
community and love, not tomention home to some of the best
food in the nation.
Black neighborhoods and ethnicenclaves can serve as a refugee
for non-white Americans who workand study in predominantly
white institutions.
I'm making an argument in favorof more neighborhood choice to
ensure that the zip code theirchild is born does not so
(21:14):
powerfully predetermine thestory of their life.
Plus, I've never heard of anaffordable housing development
in an affluent community thathad a difficult time filling up.
Quite the opposite, in fact.
When the wealthy township ofCherry Hill, new Jersey, opened
applications for 29 affordableapartments in 2021, 9,309 people
(21:34):
applied.
Integration works.
That's the resoundingconclusion from a half a century
of research.
Consider the impact of schoolintegration.
After the Supreme Court ruledin Brown v Board of Education
that laws upholding racialsegregation in public schools
were unconstitutional, in theyears following the 1954
(21:55):
decision, desegregation orderswere unevenly enforced
throughout the nation, allowingsocial scientists to compare
Black children who went tointegrated schools with those
who attended segregated ones.
The economist Rucker Johnsondid just that, finding that
Black children who were enrolledin integrated schools performed
better in the classroom,graduated at higher rates and
(22:18):
were more likely to go tocollege than their peers who
experienced a segregatededucation.
These educational gains hadreal cash value, as Johnson's
models showed that blackstudents who benefited from
court-ordered integration weresignificantly less likely to
experience poverty as adults.
Meanwhile, white children,whose schools desegregated,
(22:38):
remained on track.
Their academic achievement andlater life well-being did not
suffer as a result of the newblack classmates.
Increasing inequality has led toa rise in some segregation
among school districts.
Policymakers have passededucation finance reforms that
have helped balance the scales,devoting more money to poorer
schools.
That's helped, but it's clearlynot the solution.
(22:59):
Consider what happened inMontgomery County, maryland.
In their early aughts, thehousing authority there randomly
assigned families to differentpublic housing units, some of
which were located in affluentneighborhoods with affluent
schools.
At the same time, the countymade serious investments in the
poorest schools, dedicating realmoney to pay for things like
(23:21):
smaller class sizes and teachertraining.
This presented researchers witha chance to determine whether
poor students fared better inlow-poverty schools or in
high-poverty schools with moreresources.
The results were striking.
Students from poor families whoattended low-poverty schools
significantly outperformed thosewho attended high-poverty
(23:41):
schools with quotestate-of-the-art educational
interventions.
Even when we expand the budgetsof poor schools beyond the rich
ones, it does not make thoseschools anything close to equal.
I feel a little stupid makingthe case that a child's
environment matters.
We know it does, which is whymany of us expend so much energy
and treasure fortifying our ownschools and neighborhoods,
(24:04):
hoarding the promise andsecurity that come with them.
What are we teaching ourchildren when they plainly see
us barring the doors ofopportunity for other children
and doing it in their name?
America has backslid sinceBrown, so much so that our
children's schools today areless economically diverse than
their grandparents' schools were.
(24:25):
And although we've taken babysteps towards racial integration
, most of our communities remainsharply segregated by race as
well.
As our cities become moreunaffordable, the sheer distance
separating the haves and thehave-nots will only grow wider.
We used to gossip about poorfamilies who lived on the other
side of the tracks.
Now we talk about those wholive in the next county over.
(24:46):
We remain very separate andvery unequal, but this
corruption of opportunity canend with us.
When we talk about these walls,states are building around
schools.
It's honestly outrageous.
Ohio passed this program calledEducational Choice Scholarship
Program.
Basically, it gives studentsmoney to go to private schools
(25:10):
instead of public schools.
At first it was only forfamilies who didn't make a lot
of money, but here's the kickerthe public schools still had to
pay to bus those kids to privateschools.
It's like taking money frompublic schools and giving it to
private schools, and then usingpublic money to bus kids away
from public schools.
It's a total waste.
(25:31):
Then they made it even worse.
They got rid of the incomelimits, so now anyone in Ohio
can get this money.
So the real question is howmuch has Ohio actually spent on
this whole scheme to privatizesomething that should be
publicly funded?
Rep Joe Miller (25:48):
We spent a billion dollars on vouchers,
like I said, so that your$20,000 a year high school
tuition is now $13,000, right.
Adam (25:58):
Is there anything stopping them from raising tuition?
Rep Joe Miller (26:00):
But that's seven times.
Do you think to give them afree and reduced lunch, or a
free lunch or a free breakfastfor those who want it, which
means it's not every kid?
I don't even eat breakfast.
I'll have a glass of orangejuice, take my vitamins and have
a couple cups of coffee andthen I'll have my lunch.
That's what I eat.
Yeah, lunch, that's when I eat.
(26:25):
Yeah, uh, and so.
So I think that would be abetter investment and cost less,
to make sure that every childlearned with a full stomach.
I don't know about you, butpeople use the statement hangry.
You know you're hangry, you'rehungry, you're angry because
you're hungry.
I've taught for about 20, somesome plus years and seen I mean
true hunger, to a point where Iwould bring food in and like
here you have a snack.
(26:46):
Yeah, I'm like here, I knowwhere you're at and so, because
you just can't watch, you knowkids be hungry and hurt, like
anybody with empathy, I think,or a heart, anybody with, uh,
with empathy, I think, of ourheart.
Um, the problem is is to tojustify that, or justify the
(27:06):
unwillingness to feel that or tohave empathy for some somebody
else?
we have to blame them for thatsituation they're in and and
you're right sometimes listen,sometimes actions will bring
about poverty or homelessness,and we get that so um.
So the real problem is is youreally cutting out the future
for that person by not givingthem, or not providing them,
(27:29):
base food, nourishment and atleast a roof over their head.
Adam (27:33):
So get this.
Ohio spent a billion dollars onthis voucher program and a lot
of that money probably went tofamilies who are already sending
their kids to private schoolanyway.
There is this one study inTennessee that looked at voucher
programs from across thecountry and guess what?
They found that in a lot ofcases, student performance
(27:54):
actually got worse.
For example, in Louisiana, kidsusing vouchers did way worse on
tests, and in Indiana, kids whogot vouchers were less likely
to go to college.
These programs were supposed tohelp low-income families, but
now they're mostly benefitingwealthier families.
In Arizona, most of the kidsusing vouchers never went to
(28:16):
public schools in the firstplace.
It's like they're building awall around public benefits,
keeping the kids who need themthe most from getting help.
People justify these programs bysaying public schools are
terrible, but the truth is thesefancy private schools don't
always deliver on their promises.
Sometimes they're actuallyworse than public schools.
(28:37):
Shocker right Meanwhile, thingslike free school lunches for
all kids Unaffordable, they say.
But this voucher program isfunded by taxpayer money.
Money that could be going toour public schools is instead
going to private schools, and itmakes the problem worse.
Wosu did some reporting thatfound that more and more wealthy
(28:59):
families were using thesevouchers in Ohio, and a study
found that this is actuallyleading to more segregation in
some schools.
For example, in the ClevelandHeights University of Heights
City School District, most ofthe kids using the vouchers are
white some 90% Even though theschool district is mostly not
white only about 18%.
(29:20):
These school districts are evensuing the state because of the
money they're losing.
Millions of dollars are beingtaken away from public schools,
forcing them to rely more onproperty taxes, which isn't fair
.
Is it possible that because,like say, people that are of
affluence are incentivized to docertain behaviors like buy a
(29:41):
home, get the max tax credit?
Do you think because theirincentives for their government
handout or whatever we want tocall it, they're incentivized?
They view welfare and Medicaidas an incentive to being poor
because you get all of thatstuff?
Rep Joe Miller (29:55):
Yeah.
So we want people to be thebest versions of themselves.
You have to get them in aposition where that becomes
their goal, or that becomesobtainable, or that is something
that they can see as the nextstep.
If you're extremely poor,impoverished, you will not be
looking at the ultimate goal ofself-actualization.
(30:16):
How can I make myself a betterperson?
Usually it's through education,experience, knowledge,
interaction with others.
That's the best me.
I can be right.
We'll get our self-esteem andself-confidence along the way.
When you're poor, you don't seeeducation or savings or any of
(30:38):
these things as a short-termsolution for the long-term
problem.
And you know there was asuperintendent in a school
district here in the county.
He had a great saying.
He's like yeah, well, my kidsand he said, my kids are pretty
much born with a bachelor'sdegree.
That's where they're startingfrom, because and it's true,
(30:58):
like I think my boys and my twoboys uh got a leg up, not
because we're wealthy, forgoodness sake, like we, we're
public servants.
My wife and I we're like mywife and both of us we're
educators.
that's how we met, you know, um,we're just working middle class
and eventually, after enougheducation, enough experience, we
became middle class.
But I can promise you this um,they were getting three, four000
(31:20):
words said to them, differentwords in a year's time.
I mean, they were exposed andwe, as parents, understood the
importance of brain development,of physical development, of
being healthy, of doing thingsthe right way so that you can be
successful.
And so they started with amajor advantage teaching them
how to learn.
(31:40):
Like, how many parents know theprofession and the strategies
behind learning and overcominglearning obstacles and
challenges?
And so they know how to learn.
And that's important, because ateacher's not always going to be
there.
A teacher's not always going toknow you're struggling.
Sometimes you speak up,sometimes you don't.
Parents are not always going tobe there.
The teacher's not always goingto know you're struggling.
Sometimes you speak up,sometimes you don't.
(32:01):
Parents are not always going tobe there.
Sometimes they can identifywhether you're struggling or be
able to help you with that.
So, yeah, some kids are bornwith a bachelor's degree.
They're born right there,already ready to go, and then
there's so many that arestruggling to get there.
Adam (32:15):
The founding fathers you know, the guys that wrote the
constitution, that little thingwe follow believe that education
was super important for ademocracy to work.
They thought everyone shouldhave a chance to learn and be
involved in their community.
Public schools were supposed tobe a way for everyone, no
matter where they came from, toget a good education and have a
chance to succeed.
But by taking money away frompublic schools and trying to
(32:38):
make them private, we'rebasically destroying this idea.
Schools are starting to relyheavily on property taxes, which
means people who live in poorerareas get worse schools.
This creates a system whereonly rich kids get a good
education, while everyone elsegets left behind.
It's basically saying that agood education isn't right.
(32:59):
It's a privilege for thewealthy.
Next time, on Spark of Change,we dive back into the
conversation with Joe Miller toexplore the ever-growing
influence of billionaires inpolitics.
Rep Joe Miller (33:16):
I don't think anybody should be near
government that has that kind ofmoney and I think government.
There should be a wall ofseparation between that.
And you know what that wall ofseparation is?
The fourth estate, thebureaucracy, the people who can
oversee it, the FBI.
So what do you do?
The CIA, the FBI, the AttorneyGeneral, the justice system, all
those are set up to make surethat, regardless of how much
(33:39):
strength you have, how muchmoney you have, how much
knowledge you have, all thosethings are not going to be above
the law, are not going to beable to allow you to take the
rights away from others.
Well, guess what?
If you put those people inthose positions, you've now
stopped our system from workingand keeping people from being
(33:59):
above the law, and this becomesan oligarchy, this becomes an
autocratic system.
We better have a strongCongress, I don't care RRD, they
better be constitutionallystrong, or this experiment is
going to be probably tested toits branch of the line.
Adam (34:18):
If you like this episode, please share it with your
friends on social media andsubscribe to the podcast in your
favorite podcast app.
Links to all articlesreferenced in this episode are
linked in our show notes, alongwith a couple ways you can
interact with the show.
Feel free to send us a messageon social media, of course, but
now you can directly text usthrough a link that we put in
those show notes.
(34:38):
We also have brought thepodcast to YouTube.
Although we don't use video,you can now listen to our
episodes on YouTube anywhere yougo.
This episode was written andedited by Adam Gercak.
Music for the podcast wasprovided by Pixabay.
Special thanks to MatthewDesmond and his team for
providing a copy of the bookPoverty by America to us for use
in a special series.
(34:59):
Spark of Change is a Survive,everyday Media podcast.
Welcome back to the Survive Everyday podcast.
In our special series, spark ofChange, we're diving deep into
a really important issue poverty.
I'm your Adam Gercak.
In our past episodes we'vetalked about how big companies,
while trying to make a profit,can sometimes keep people stuck
in poverty.
They create systems that makeit hard for people to escape
(00:32):
difficult situations.
It's a complicated system we'reall a part of, but
understanding how it works isthe first step towards making
things better.
After talking to my friend Jerry, I decided to reach out to some
of the people who actually makethe decisions our elected
officials.
State Representative Joe Miller, who represents my district,
ohio 53, was the first torespond.
(00:53):
We had a really interestingphone call.
He was honest with me and headmitted that he wasn't an
expert on poverty issues, and Iappreciated his honesty because
I was more interested in hearinghis own thoughts and
experiences than a poverty issue.
We later met at the library fora much larger conversation.
We covered so much ground thatit's impossible to fit it into
(01:14):
one episode.
Today we're going to connect twothings that seem like they
should help but might actuallyhave some unintended
consequences.
Huge spending on politicalcampaigns.
People think that spending tonsof money on ads will get more
people to vote, but who reallybenefits from all that spending?
And school voucher programsthese programs give public money
to private schools.
(01:35):
Some people believe that thiswill give all kids a better
education, but does it really?
Or does it just take the moneyaway from our public schools and
give it to private schools,which might make the problem
worse?
Joe may not be an expert onpoverty policy, but he's
definitely lived through some ofthe challenges we're discussing
.
His experiences have helped usunderstand how wealth, power and
(01:56):
opportunity really work in oursociety, and I think a great
starting point for ourdiscussion is understanding
Joe's background and how itshapes his worldview.
Rep Joe Miller (02:05):
So I started well, I started college, if you
want to call it that, as I wasworking a couple jobs coming out
of high school.
I was either going to go in themilitary or go work at Ford or
Norton or a factory.
We were a family of kind oflike working poor, trying to
work your way out of poor Familyof seven, five kids, kind of a
(02:27):
mixed marriage, and so my dadtook my mom's two older kids and
then had three more.
I'm being the middle of thosethree more.
Adam (02:36):
Oh, so we're both middle children, yeah.
Rep Joe Miller (02:39):
And he started this young and in his 20s,
during the 70s, when the economywas not that great.
It was, uh, tumultuous, we hadhigh inflation at the end.
It was a lot going on in the70s.
So, uh, he would factory, layhim off, then he'd go back and
you know that kind of thing.
And it wasn't until he got intoa supervisor role and my mom
(03:00):
kids were old enough my sisterwas old enough for us four boy,
older boys to watch her that shewent off and and stopped and
stopped just cutting hair tomake some side money.
With her license beauticianlicense at that time it was
called she went off to work fora doctor in an office and you
start working your way out ofthat working poor.
So it was nice.
(03:20):
You're no longer having puffedrice and powdered milk for
breakfast or free and reducedlunches and you kind of felt
like, hey.
But I also saw my dad grind andso I felt that's what you need
to do.
And it is still true that youknow grinding is rewarding and
it helps you get where you wantto go most often, unless things
(03:40):
are stacked against you.
So I went to community collegebecause I ended up not going in
the service, not going to workfor a factory.
I already had like three jobs.
I was enjoying teaching martialarts and doing a couple other
things and after two years inthe college in business, when I
decided I wasn't going to openmy own dojo, my parents helped
me decide that they're likethere's absolutely no way I'm
(04:02):
going to invest in that with you.
We don't have much money in thefirst place.
So I left for Bowling GreenState University and transferred
to international business, gotout there, missed working with
kids and adults, ended upchanging my major to education.
Graduated with a bachelor's ofscience and a secondary
education, came out, taughtthree years and two in Texas
technically three in Texas.
(04:22):
but two of those years of thethree in Texas were in a
alternative school which wasbasically alternative to jail or
juvenile.
So I got to see a lot of thesocial impacts on kids learning
and growing and maturing anddeveloping and how that was very
challenging.
And I thought, you know, wow, Ireally had it rough.
No, I didn't, I actually had itpretty good.
(04:43):
I thought you know, wow, Ireally had it rough.
No, I didn't, I actually had itpretty good.
You know we may have wore gradsale clothes a lot of times and
had, you know, not the best offood and froze.
You know, went and got breadand froze in the freezer, kind
of thing.
Adam (05:00):
But there were people that were in the body or other areas
.
If you remember MatthewDesmond's book Poverty by
America, he talks about theexperiences Joe went through.
Now it's important tounderstand that poverty isn't
the same for everyone.
When white people experiencepoverty, it's often different
from what people of colorexperience.
White people living in povertyusually don't live in
neighborhoods where there's alot of other poor people, so
(05:21):
their experience of povertymight be a little different.
Joe, even when he was a youngcollege graduate, understood
this.
He faced challenges growing up,sure, but his struggles weren't
exactly the same as the kids hetaught at his alternative
school.
Eventually, joe got a job inmanagement in the corporate
world, but then 9-11 happenedand that completely changed the
(05:42):
course of his career again.
Rep Joe Miller (05:45):
So I ended up in business anyway.
And then 9-11 happened and thatcompletely changed the course
of his career again.
So I ended up in businessanyway and then 9-11 hit and
decided it was time to either,you know, continuing working in
management and business or goback to education.
And I kind of left it up to Godand said, hey, you know, at
that time after 9-11, nobody washiring and so I was in between
jobs.
It just happened.
I thought it was a vacation.
I thought, hey, this is great,I'm single, no kids.
(06:06):
You know my rent's low.
I got good money piled asideand I blew through it because of
9-11.
And we were talking earlier offthere or on there or whatever,
about unemployment.
I was like, you know, that'sunemployment for those who can't
get the job, and I just didn'thave a really good, mature
understanding of howunemployment works.
So I never went and got it andI just blew through everything I
(06:28):
had until I got the next job.
And it was funny, I left thedecision up to God and got a
call immediately after I didthat from a school district in
Lurien County and I was over inCuyahoga County at the time, and
so I came back home, came backhome, taught at Firelands for
about 17 and a half years, metmy wife and a couple kids and
(06:49):
things are great.
And so, while I was moving backhome, my wife and I, after
starting a little starter homein Vermillion, we all decided we
wanted to move back closer tothe family while raising kids
and built my development.
And, of course, there's alwaysan issue.
There's always an issue thatcomes about, and so there was a
(07:13):
local issue that the citycouncil wasn't handling.
My neighbors were like hey, youteach government, you know
government, you understand it.
Would you go advocate on ourbehalf?
What?
I recognize that I did have theknowledge behind it and a skill
set there, and I enjoyedadvocating for my neighbors, and
(07:34):
so I became a city councilmanright after that.
Adam (07:37):
Joe later went on to run for statewide office the current
office he holds now.
While we were discussing whypeople sit out on elections, he
talked about the harsh realitiesof getting elected to a larger
statewide office.
Rep Joe Miller (07:48):
I tell this story.
It's embarrassing, it's sad andit's embarrassing that there's
some truth to this.
I remember there's one thingrunning for city council.
Like you know your name as youwin it was city-wise 12,000
people, which is still a smalltown in Amherst and I'm trying
to meet every door and talk toeverybody.
It didn't matter, R D,independent, non-affiliated, did
(08:11):
not matter.
I wanted to meet with them,talk with them, and it's easier
to do that.
But when I ran for state officein the House of Representatives
, you have 124,000 people.
You have a larger area to cover.
You're not going to be able todo that.
You're not going to be able tohit every house.
And so the one thing that Isaid to some of the people that
(08:34):
came together on my team andwere giving me feedback, I said
hey, I do not have a largepercentage of Hispanic and
African-American members in mycommunity and if I'm going to
represent them, I need to getout there and hear from them and
(08:54):
find out what their issues areand how we can make sure
government's working for them,and find out what they're
willing to do.
And I remember one of thepeople there who had been around
politics for a long time saidwhat are you doing?
You only have so much time andresources.
Why do you care about a groupof people who don't vote Because
(09:19):
they're not going to help?
You get elected and you can'tdo anything in office.
If you're not elected, youcan't get there.
So all the great things youwant to do for them, or elected,
and you can't do anything inoffice if you're not elected,
you can't get there.
So all the great things youwant to do for them or others,
you can't do.
So you need to spend all yourtime and effort where the votes
are coming from.
And I was somewhat appalled bythat because I was coming from
the opposite direction.
And a true story and anembarrassing story is I remember
(09:42):
when I was running for citycouncil, the first time I ran as
an independent, and that'sbecause I mean I'm a centrist
dem but but I still believe inthe democratic party.
Right now I'm still strugglingwith some of the the ideas and
how they they view America, butin the end, this is an easy call
for me to be a democrat,regardless of some of the
changes.
I ran as an independent becauseI got in late, after the
(10:05):
primary petition deadline.
But I got in and I wanted tomake sure that I was going to do
a really, really good job formy constituents and my neighbors
and I wanted to make sure I wasprepared so that I wouldn't
waste their time or embarrassthem or whatever.
I was prepared so that Iwouldn't waste their time or
embarrass them or whatever.
(10:26):
So I spent a lot of timelearning the budget, what was
going on in city council, howthey ran their meetings, who was
in all that part.
I spent time trying to getelected not near enough time.
And guess what?
Because I was an independentand because I didn't spend as
(10:47):
much time trying to get elected,I just thought, well, I mean,
I'm going to be the mostknowledgeable person on the
ticket.
They should see that thatdoesn't happen.
People are not engaged.
They don't know.
They don't know about that.
They just want to know thatyou're going to go out there
meet them listen to them, andthen you're going to try to do
your best in that position.
Adam (11:02):
Okay, listen, money in politics is a huge deal.
I talked about this with Joeand it really blew my mind.
He told me just to getreelected to his state office,
he had to raise a quarter of amillion dollars.
Can you imagine how much moneyyou need to run for something
like Congress?
So who's actually giving allthis money?
(11:22):
You and me Not really Notenough to make a real difference
.
At least.
It's mostly big corporations,super rich people and those
powerful lobbying groups.
The amount of money flowinginto these campaigns is
mind-boggling.
So I asked Joe a simplequestion.
Rep Joe Miller (11:39):
Is it?
Adam (11:40):
far off for a regular person like myself, or like
anybody else, to say if you'vegot a large corporate donor,
you're beholden to them.
Is that far off?
Rep Joe Miller (11:48):
No, I think that's accurate.
I think that that's not anuncommon thing, to be honest
with you.
I think it happens more thanpeople believe, but I will say
there are legislators on bothsides of the aisle who say OK,
thank you.
Thank you for helping me getelected.
Adam (12:10):
But know that I'm not always going to agree with you.
Ok, so the last presidentialelection, over three billion
dollars were raised and spent.
That's insane.
According to the FederalElection Commission, a huge
chunk of that went towards ads.
You know those commercials yousee everywhere trying to
convince you to vote for acertain candidate, often just
mudslinging back and forth.
Since candidates can't knock onevery single door, they rely
heavily on TV and radio andthose stoop mailers.
(12:32):
You get in the mail.
But here's the problem All thispolitical advertising drives up
the cost of advertising ingeneral.
Small businesses can't competewith the massive campaign
budgets.
They get priced out of themarket, making it harder for
them to reach customers.
Before the 1980s, in the Reaganadministration, things were
different.
The government had stricterrules about how many radio and
(12:54):
TV stations a single companycould own.
This was to prevent a few bigcompanies from controlling
everything.
Back then, stations weresupposed to serve the public
interest, meaning they had toprovide a variety of programs
and local.
But then the rules changed andthings got crazy.
Big corporations started buyingup tons of stations, squeezing
(13:14):
out smaller ones.
Competition disappeared and allthe stations started to look
and sound the same.
Local news got cut and itbecame all about making money.
Now, during election season,these huge media companies think
iHeartRadio, disney, nbc,amazon they're raking in cash
(13:35):
from political ads, Billions ofdollars flowing straight into
the pockets of these massivecorporations run by billionaires
.
Remember those old independentradio stations, the ones that
really cared about theircommunity?
They're mostly gone now,replaced by these giant
companies, and it makes youwonder, doesn't it?
How does all this power andmoney concentrated in the hands
(13:59):
of a few actually affect ourdemocracy?
Is a billionaire, an ethicalperson typically.
Rep Joe Miller (14:06):
I don't want to speak to somebody's moral,
ethical fiber.
I think that the economy is setup and structured that way.
I think if you get yourbillionaire billions by taking
advantage of others andmistreating them and being
unjust to them in their wagesyou're paying them, whatever it
may be the environment, the workenvironment you're creating for
(14:27):
them then, yes, they could bemorally bankrupt.
I just think our country listenwhen Reagan came in.
We are at 70% tax for thewealthiest, Middle class was
possible, it was booming, it wasbig, it was there Even after
the inflation of the 70s and thebig oil embargo and all that,
(14:49):
it still was there.
A democracy in a democraticrepublic, a democracy, is built
on the foundation of the middleclass.
It just is.
They're the ones that are mostinvolved, they're the ones that
vote, they're the ones that paythe taxes, the most taxes.
What have you?
You can say, oh, the superwealthy are paying more because
they're paying 70%.
Well, there's not that manysuper wealthy, we don't have
billionaires out there.
(15:09):
The amount of money from the topto the bottom worker, from the
CEO to the bottom worker, thatratio has grown so substantially
.
That gap has gotten so largethat people have lost touch with
their workers, with their entryemployees.
Because you know what, inAmherst, when I grew up the
doctor, the dentist or maybe thepresident of the bank you could
(15:31):
tell that you knew whose homethey were.
But guess what?
Their home was mixed withineverybody else's or was off on
the street, yeah, but guess what?
They drove off of that littlecul-de-sac where there may have
been a couple nice homes were,but then they were there with
the rest of them.
And today you making you'remaking that kind of money you're
in a gated community, you're ina, in an hoa, where certain
(15:52):
price, certain looks, all thisother stuff there's.
There's ways to I don't callredlining, but there's ways to
make it so that you don't haveto be around those that are not
in your economic class.
So I don't think there's asmuch of a racial divide and
warfare out there, or evengender we could talk about on
(16:16):
another podcast maybe, but but Ido believe that this wealth gap
is causing the biggest problemsfor our democracy right now.
Does that mean we have to go toelon and say you're now going to
become a millionaire?
No, but I promise you buildingrockets and going to become a
millionaire.
No, but I promise you, buildingrockets and going to Mars is
cool, it's kind of sexy.
(16:37):
I guess it seems neat and great.
But the amount of good youcould truly do for America On
this planet, on this planetright, it could be done by
shoring up social security bythose.
Did you catch that?
Adam (16:52):
He said, and I'm paraphrasing here I don't think
race is the biggest problemright now, but I do believe the
gap between the rich and thepoor is causing the most damage
to our democracy.
He's basically saying thatinstead of focusing on things
like race, we should be moreworried about the fact that the
super rich are so out of touchwith the rest of us.
(17:13):
He explained that when we weregrowing up, doctors, lawyers and
other successful people livedin the same neighborhoods as
everyone else.
It wasn't this huge divide likewe see today.
Now the super rich live intheir own little worlds, only
interacting with otherbillionaires.
Matthew Desmond describes thisphenomenon as a wall.
Back to the book.
(17:34):
[Chapter 9 pages 161-165] Thereis one final step we must take
Our walls, they have to go.
We have revised our textbooksand renamed our holidays to
acknowledge the harms ofcolonialization.
We have begun the work ofremoving marble statues and
changing street signs inrecognition of the horrors of
slavery.
But do we not act as modern-daysegregationists when we
(17:56):
mobilize to block an affordablehousing complex in our
neighborhood?
Do we not colonize the futurewhen we reserve spaces there for
our children while denyingother children a fair shot by
deconcentrating poverty inschools and communities?
Integration blunts its sting.
Simply moving poor families tohigh-opportunity neighborhoods
(18:17):
without doing anything toincrease their incomes improves
their lives tremendously, evenif they remain below the poverty
line.
They become less poor in thesense that their exposure to
crime drops and their mentalhealth improves and their
children flourish in school.
Studies have found that eachyear that poor children spend in
a high-opportunity neighborhoodincreases their income and
(18:40):
adulthood, so much so that theiryounger siblings experience
bigger gains than their olderbrothers and sisters because of
the additional years spent in asafer and more prosperous place.
Additional years spent in asafer and more prosperous place.
Yet even the most ambitiousanti-poverty proposals in wide
circulation today, such as auniversal basic income, often
(19:00):
leave segregation untouched.
It's disappointing like we'vegiven up on the problem, as if
the best we can do is create anation that is separate but a
little less unequal.
When the affluent and poor livedesperate lives, any
institution or program whichonly the poor rely becomes
vulnerable.
It's easy to support closing apublic school when your kid
(19:22):
doesn't attend, or approveaggressive policing tactics when
you know it won't be yournephew who gets patted down.
But when families across theclass spectrum send their
children to the same schools,picnic in the same parks and
walk the same streets, thosefamilies are equally invested in
those schools, those parks,those streets.
(19:42):
Besides, let's admit it,segregation poisons our minds
and souls.
When affluents live, work, playand worship mainly alongside
fellow affluents, they can growinsular, quite literally
forgetting the poor.
It brings out the worst in us,feeding our prejudices and
spreading moral decay.
Engaging with one another inintegrated communities allows us
(20:05):
to recognize our blind spots,desiloing our lives and causing
families well above the povertyline to become bothered by the
problems that affect those belowit.
As Nietzsche wrote, one mustwant to experience the great
problems with one's body andone's soul, and I'd count
poverty among the great problems.
Integration means we all haveskin in the game.
(20:27):
It not only disrupts poverty ona spiritual level.
Over time it can foster empathyand solidarity.
This is why opposingsegregation is vital to poverty
abolitionism.
If we lowered our walls and madeit possible for poor families
to move to high-opportunityneighborhoods, some would and
some wouldn't.
Poor neighborhoods, after all,are not just that.
(20:51):
They are often the wellspringfor family and familiarity,
community and love, not tomention home to some of the best
food in the nation.
Black neighborhoods and ethnicenclaves can serve as a refugee
for non-white Americans who workand study in predominantly
white institutions.
I'm making an argument in favorof more neighborhood choice to
ensure that the zip code theirchild is born does not so
(21:14):
powerfully predetermine thestory of their life.
Plus, I've never heard of anaffordable housing development
in an affluent community thathad a difficult time filling up.
Quite the opposite, in fact.
When the wealthy township ofCherry Hill, new Jersey, opened
applications for 29 affordableapartments in 2021, 9,309 people
(21:34):
applied.
Integration works.
That's the resoundingconclusion from a half a century
of research.
Consider the impact of schoolintegration.
After the Supreme Court ruledin Brown v Board of Education
that laws upholding racialsegregation in public schools
were unconstitutional, in theyears following the 1954
(21:55):
decision, desegregation orderswere unevenly enforced
throughout the nation, allowingsocial scientists to compare
Black children who went tointegrated schools with those
who attended segregated ones.
The economist Rucker Johnsondid just that, finding that
Black children who were enrolledin integrated schools performed
better in the classroom,graduated at higher rates and
(22:18):
were more likely to go tocollege than their peers who
experienced a segregatededucation.
These educational gains hadreal cash value, as Johnson's
models showed that blackstudents who benefited from
court-ordered integration weresignificantly less likely to
experience poverty as adults.
Meanwhile, white children,whose schools desegregated,
(22:38):
remained on track.
Their academic achievement andlater life well-being did not
suffer as a result of the newblack classmates.
Increasing inequality has led toa rise in some segregation
among school districts.
Policymakers have passededucation finance reforms that
have helped balance the scales,devoting more money to poorer
schools.
That's helped, but it's clearlynot the solution.
(22:59):
Consider what happened inMontgomery County, maryland.
In their early aughts, thehousing authority there randomly
assigned families to differentpublic housing units, some of
which were located in affluentneighborhoods with affluent
schools.
At the same time, the countymade serious investments in the
poorest schools, dedicating realmoney to pay for things like
(23:21):
smaller class sizes and teachertraining.
This presented researchers witha chance to determine whether
poor students fared better inlow-poverty schools or in
high-poverty schools with moreresources.
The results were striking.
Students from poor families whoattended low-poverty schools
significantly outperformed thosewho attended high-poverty
(23:41):
schools with quotestate-of-the-art educational
interventions.
Even when we expand the budgetsof poor schools beyond the rich
ones, it does not make thoseschools anything close to equal.
I feel a little stupid makingthe case that a child's
environment matters.
We know it does, which is whymany of us expend so much energy
and treasure fortifying our ownschools and neighborhoods,
(24:04):
hoarding the promise andsecurity that come with them.
What are we teaching ourchildren when they plainly see
us barring the doors ofopportunity for other children
and doing it in their name?
America has backslid sinceBrown, so much so that our
children's schools today areless economically diverse than
their grandparents' schools were.
(24:25):
And although we've taken babysteps towards racial integration
, most of our communities remainsharply segregated by race as
well.
As our cities become moreunaffordable, the sheer distance
separating the haves and thehave-nots will only grow wider.
We used to gossip about poorfamilies who lived on the other
side of the tracks.
Now we talk about those wholive in the next county over.
(24:46):
We remain very separate andvery unequal, but this
corruption of opportunity canend with us.
When we talk about these walls,states are building around
schools.
It's honestly outrageous.
Ohio passed this program calledEducational Choice Scholarship
Program.
Basically, it gives studentsmoney to go to private schools
(25:10):
instead of public schools.
At first it was only forfamilies who didn't make a lot
of money, but here's the kickerthe public schools still had to
pay to bus those kids to privateschools.
It's like taking money frompublic schools and giving it to
private schools, and then usingpublic money to bus kids away
from public schools.
It's a total waste.
(25:31):
Then they made it even worse.
They got rid of the incomelimits, so now anyone in Ohio
can get this money.
So the real question is howmuch has Ohio actually spent on
this whole scheme to privatizesomething that should be
publicly funded?
Rep Joe Miller (25:48):
We spent a billion dollars on vouchers,
like I said, so that your$20,000 a year high school
tuition is now $13,000, right.
Adam (25:58):
Is there anything stopping them from raising tuition?
Rep Joe Miller (26:00):
But that's seven times.
Do you think to give them afree and reduced lunch, or a
free lunch or a free breakfastfor those who want it, which
means it's not every kid?
I don't even eat breakfast.
I'll have a glass of orangejuice, take my vitamins and have
a couple cups of coffee andthen I'll have my lunch.
That's what I eat.
Yeah, lunch, that's when I eat.
(26:25):
Yeah, uh, and so.
So I think that would be abetter investment and cost less,
to make sure that every childlearned with a full stomach.
I don't know about you, butpeople use the statement hangry.
You know you're hangry, you'rehungry, you're angry because
you're hungry.
I've taught for about 20, somesome plus years and seen I mean
true hunger, to a point where Iwould bring food in and like
here you have a snack.
(26:46):
Yeah, I'm like here, I knowwhere you're at and so, because
you just can't watch, you knowkids be hungry and hurt, like
anybody with empathy, I think,or a heart, anybody with, uh,
with empathy, I think, of ourheart.
Um, the problem is is to tojustify that, or justify the
(27:06):
unwillingness to feel that or tohave empathy for some somebody
else?
we have to blame them for thatsituation they're in and and
you're right sometimes listen,sometimes actions will bring
about poverty or homelessness,and we get that so um.
So the real problem is is youreally cutting out the future
for that person by not givingthem, or not providing them,
(27:29):
base food, nourishment and atleast a roof over their head.
Adam (27:33):
So get this.
Ohio spent a billion dollars onthis voucher program and a lot
of that money probably went tofamilies who are already sending
their kids to private schoolanyway.
There is this one study inTennessee that looked at voucher
programs from across thecountry and guess what?
They found that in a lot ofcases, student performance
(27:54):
actually got worse.
For example, in Louisiana, kidsusing vouchers did way worse on
tests, and in Indiana, kids whogot vouchers were less likely
to go to college.
These programs were supposed tohelp low-income families, but
now they're mostly benefitingwealthier families.
In Arizona, most of the kidsusing vouchers never went to
(28:16):
public schools in the firstplace.
It's like they're building awall around public benefits,
keeping the kids who need themthe most from getting help.
People justify these programs bysaying public schools are
terrible, but the truth is thesefancy private schools don't
always deliver on their promises.
Sometimes they're actuallyworse than public schools.
(28:37):
Shocker right Meanwhile, thingslike free school lunches for
all kids Unaffordable, they say.
But this voucher program isfunded by taxpayer money.
Money that could be going toour public schools is instead
going to private schools, and itmakes the problem worse.
Wosu did some reporting thatfound that more and more wealthy
(28:59):
families were using thesevouchers in Ohio, and a study
found that this is actuallyleading to more segregation in
some schools.
For example, in the ClevelandHeights University of Heights
City School District, most ofthe kids using the vouchers are
white some 90% Even though theschool district is mostly not
white only about 18%.
(29:20):
These school districts are evensuing the state because of the
money they're losing.
Millions of dollars are beingtaken away from public schools,
forcing them to rely more onproperty taxes, which isn't fair
.
Is it possible that because,like say, people that are of
affluence are incentivized to docertain behaviors like buy a
(29:41):
home, get the max tax credit?
Do you think because theirincentives for their government
handout or whatever we want tocall it, they're incentivized?
They view welfare and Medicaidas an incentive to being poor
because you get all of thatstuff?
Rep Joe Miller (29:55):
Yeah.
So we want people to be thebest versions of themselves.
You have to get them in aposition where that becomes
their goal, or that becomesobtainable, or that is something
that they can see as the nextstep.
If you're extremely poor,impoverished, you will not be
looking at the ultimate goal ofself-actualization.
(30:16):
How can I make myself a betterperson?
Usually it's through education,experience, knowledge,
interaction with others.
That's the best me.
I can be right.
We'll get our self-esteem andself-confidence along the way.
When you're poor, you don't seeeducation or savings or any of
(30:38):
these things as a short-termsolution for the long-term
problem.
And you know there was asuperintendent in a school
district here in the county.
He had a great saying.
He's like yeah, well, my kidsand he said, my kids are pretty
much born with a bachelor'sdegree.
That's where they're startingfrom, because and it's true,
(30:58):
like I think my boys and my twoboys uh got a leg up, not
because we're wealthy, forgoodness sake, like we, we're
public servants.
My wife and I we're like mywife and both of us we're
educators.
that's how we met, you know, um,we're just working middle class
and eventually, after enougheducation, enough experience, we
became middle class.
But I can promise you this um,they were getting three, four000
(31:20):
words said to them, differentwords in a year's time.
I mean, they were exposed andwe, as parents, understood the
importance of brain development,of physical development, of
being healthy, of doing thingsthe right way so that you can be
successful.
And so they started with amajor advantage teaching them
how to learn.
(31:40):
Like, how many parents know theprofession and the strategies
behind learning and overcominglearning obstacles and
challenges?
And so they know how to learn.
And that's important, because ateacher's not always going to be
there.
A teacher's not always going toknow you're struggling.
Sometimes you speak up,sometimes you don't.
Parents are not always going tobe there.
The teacher's not always goingto know you're struggling.
Sometimes you speak up,sometimes you don't.
(32:01):
Parents are not always going tobe there.
Sometimes they can identifywhether you're struggling or be
able to help you with that.
So, yeah, some kids are bornwith a bachelor's degree.
They're born right there,already ready to go, and then
there's so many that arestruggling to get there.
Adam (32:15):
The founding fathers you know, the guys that wrote the
constitution, that little thingwe follow believe that education
was super important for ademocracy to work.
They thought everyone shouldhave a chance to learn and be
involved in their community.
Public schools were supposed tobe a way for everyone, no
matter where they came from, toget a good education and have a
chance to succeed.
But by taking money away frompublic schools and trying to
(32:38):
make them private, we'rebasically destroying this idea.
Schools are starting to relyheavily on property taxes, which
means people who live in poorerareas get worse schools.
This creates a system whereonly rich kids get a good
education, while everyone elsegets left behind.
It's basically saying that agood education isn't right.
(32:59):
It's a privilege for thewealthy.
Next time, on Spark of Change,we dive back into the
conversation with Joe Miller toexplore the ever-growing
influence of billionaires inpolitics.
Rep Joe Miller (33:16):
I don't think anybody should be near
government that has that kind ofmoney and I think government.
There should be a wall ofseparation between that.
And you know what that wall ofseparation is?
The fourth estate, thebureaucracy, the people who can
oversee it, the FBI.
So what do you do?
The CIA, the FBI, the AttorneyGeneral, the justice system, all
those are set up to make surethat, regardless of how much
(33:39):
strength you have, how muchmoney you have, how much
knowledge you have, all thosethings are not going to be above
the law, are not going to beable to allow you to take the
rights away from others.
Well, guess what?
If you put those people inthose positions, you've now
stopped our system from workingand keeping people from being
(33:59):
above the law, and this becomesan oligarchy, this becomes an
autocratic system.
We better have a strongCongress, I don't care RRD, they
better be constitutionallystrong, or this experiment is
going to be probably tested toits branch of the line.
Adam (34:18):
If you like this episode, please share it with your
friends on social media andsubscribe to the podcast in your
favorite podcast app.
Links to all articlesreferenced in this episode are
linked in our show notes, alongwith a couple ways you can
interact with the show.
Feel free to send us a messageon social media, of course, but
now you can directly text usthrough a link that we put in
those show notes.
(34:38):
We also have brought thepodcast to YouTube.
Although we don't use video,you can now listen to our
episodes on YouTube anywhere yougo.
This episode was written andedited by Adam Gercak.
Music for the podcast wasprovided by Pixabay.
Special thanks to MatthewDesmond and his team for
providing a copy of the bookPoverty by America to us for use
in a special series.
(34:59):
Spark of Change is a Survive,everyday Media podcast.
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