April 18, 2024 • 27 mins
The Southern Alliance for Clean Energy (SACE) is a regional organization focused on transforming the way we produce and consume energy in the Southeast. As a leading voice for energy policy in our region, this non-profit organization promotes responsible and equitable energy choices to ensure clean, safe, and healthy communities throughout the Southeast.
In this episode, Cary Ritzler and Dory Larsen sat down with us to discuss what it will take to transition to a clean energy economy, and how you can take advantage of federal tax incentives to make your home more energy efficient and make it easier to switch to an electric vehicle.
RESOURCES
Southern Alliance for Clean Energy website
New Clean Vehicle Credit
Used Clean Vehicle Credit
Commercial Clean Vehicle Credit
Making the case for managed charging
Why EVs have lower emissions even when your utility uses fossil fuels
Emissions Calculator
EVs lower utility bills for all
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lori Ann Santamaria (00:00):
Welcome to Sustainable North Florida.
I'm your host, Lori AnnSantamaria.
Cary Ritzler (00:05):
We're building a movement of people around the
Southeast to make sure thatindividuals and communities are
getting the full benefits of theinvestments in climate and
clean energy.
Lori Ann Santamaria (00:20):
Welcome to Sustainable North Florida.
I'm your host, Lori AnnSantamaria, and I am really
excited about today's episode.
It's one I've been wanting todo for a while.
We have Cary Ritzler and DoryLarsen on the show with us.
Cary and Dory are with theSouthern Alliance for Clean
Energy, also known as SACE.
I have been a fan of thisorganization for a while.
They're a great resource forunderstanding how the various
(00:40):
states in the Southeast aremaking the transition to a clean
energy economy andunderstanding how the various
states in the Southeast aremaking the transition to a clean
energy economy.
One of the things that Iappreciate about SACE is that
they provide concrete steps onwhat you can do as a citizen to
make an impact on reducingemissions.
So,Cary, let's start with you.
Can you tell us a little bitabout the organization and what
it is that you do at SACE?
Cary Ritzler (00:58):
Yeah, the Southern Alliance for Clean Energy is a
nonprofit organization thatpromotes responsible and
equitable energy choices toensure clean, safe and healthy
communities throughout theSoutheast.
We work in Florida, Georgia,South Carolina, North Carolina
and Tennessee and we've been aleading voice in energy policy
(01:20):
in our region for severaldecades In this work, SACE is
focused on transforming the waywe produce and consume energy in
the Southeast.
My role is I'm the climateadvocacy manager and a big part
of my work is engaging with ourmembers and just people around
the Southeast who want to getinvolved in helping people to
(01:42):
figure out how they can takeaction.
Lori Ann Santamaria (01:46):
And how did you get started here?
What is your background and howdid you end up at SACE?
Cary Ritzler (01:51):
Well, I was an elementary school teacher for
many years.
I had gotten very interested inclimate advocacy sort of on the
side and worked a lot locallywith just a handful of other
advocates who wanted to seeclean and renewable energy in
our town of Athens, Georgia.
We called it the 100% RenewableEnergy Initiative and we
(02:16):
achieved a local resolution in2020 to get a 100% clean and
renewable energy resolutionpassed by the city council.
We also found some funding tohelp them get started and it was
through that work that I justgot very interested in the
transition to clean andrenewable energy.
(02:36):
I went back to school to get adegree in public administration
to help me figure out how allthe different levels of
government work, which has beensuper helpful, and as I was
finishing my degree, I was luckyenough to find a position here
at SACE.
Lori Ann Santamaria (02:54):
Dory, can you tell us a little bit about
your background and what yourcurrent role is at SACE?
Dory Larsen (02:58):
Sure.
So I'm the Senior ElectricTransportation Program Manager
at SACE and I've been with theorganization for over six years
now and it's been really fun towatch the space grow of electric
transportation while I've beenin the role.
My background, my master'sdegree, is in public health and
(03:20):
I spent a lot of time like Caryin public education.
I'm in Pinellas County inTarpon Springs, got involved in
a local effort because werealized they were building on
70 acres of undeveloped propertya super center for a box store
and started a communityorganization to keep that from
(03:40):
happening and just realized theenormous amount of energy and
force that community membershave when they raise their
voices collectively.
So I really was empowered bythat community organizing effort
and decided to switch careersand wanted to do something
similar.
So got an opportunity with SACEas the EV associate.
(04:04):
So started off very low on thetotem pole and learned a lot and
have grown, like I said, as thespace has matured, and it's
been a wild ride to where we aretoday.
Lori Ann Santamaria (04:17):
So you guys frame a lot of your discussions
around the clean energy economy, which I like.
Everything that we do each dayis impacted by economics, and
talking about things from adollars and cents perspective
really makes it easier forpeople to understand how their
everyday choices can impactcarbon emissions.
Cary, can you describe what youmean when you use the term
clean energy economy?
Cary Ritzler (04:38):
A lot of our economy right now is powered by
fossil fuels.
That includes coal, oil,natural gas, also called fossil
gas it's a fossil fuel.
You know the gasoline we put inour cars, etc.
So a lot of the things that wedo, the way we move around our
(04:59):
communities, the way we get ourgoods and the way we run our
households has been poweredhistorically and continues to be
powered by fossil fuels, andthose are, of course, causing
pollution that leads to climatechange, which has all sorts of
negative impacts, some of whichwe are seeing now and many of
(05:19):
which we are likely to continueseeing in the future,
particularly if we do not moveinto a cleaner way of powering
all of those things that get usall through our days, you know.
So when we think about how toget to a clean energy economy,
there's three big buckets where,you know I'd put most of the
things we need to do to get to aclean energy economy.
(05:42):
So the first thing is to makeeverything way more efficient.
So if we are able to use lessenergy of any kind, no matter
how it's produced, then that,for one thing, reduces our
reliance on fossil fuel, even ifwe are continuing to have
fossil fuels in the mix and italso makes it more possible for
(06:06):
us to meet the needs of poweringour daily lives with clean
energy, because we will simplybe using less of it.
The second step is to electrifyeverything, and in that step,
you know, you're kind ofshifting some things that many
of us do right now.
So when we talk aboutelectrifying everything, we're
(06:28):
talking about turning as many ofthose activities and really all
of those activities areeligible to be powered by
electricity.
Instead, instead of having aninternal combustion engine car,
you can have an electric car.
Instead of heating your waterwith gas, you can heat it with
electricity, etc.
The third step is to maximizerenewable energy.
(06:52):
So there's a few ways to dothat.
A big one for the southeast isrooftop solar, so putting solar
panels right on the site.
Another part of maximizing ourrenewable energy is to
distribute the generation ofelectricity.
So under the current paradigmwith fossil fuels, our
(07:13):
electricity is most oftenproduced in really big power
plants that may be pretty farfrom where we're using it, and
then it travels on power linesall the way to every little
building in the territory thatgets electricity.
So if you're talking aboutdistributed generation, then you
may be thinking about puttingyou know community solar or
(07:35):
little bitty grids of solar wecall microgrids, and sort of
collecting smaller sites ofenergy distributed around the
territory instead of just havingthings produced in a big fossil
fuel plant somewhere.
Lori Ann Santamaria (07:49):
I remember reading at one point that about
40 percent of the energy is lostover transmission, so if you're
moving from having electricityproduced at the power plant to
having solar, for example, Imean that actually makes it much
more efficient, because you'renot losing that over the
transmission lines.
Yes, absolutely so.
I recently switched to a heatpump water heater, and now the
(08:11):
cost for me to heat water at myhome is just one quarter of what
I used to spend, so it's areally big difference.
But the thing with somethinglike a water heater is that it's
usually an emergency purchase,and that's what happened to me.
My last water heater stoppedworking, and I needed to get a
new one.
I was lucky, though, becausethe unit that I was replacing
was already electric.
If you happen to be on gas,though, switching to an electric
(08:33):
one is more complicated.
Do you have any suggestions onhow people can handle that?
Cary Ritzler (08:37):
That's a great question.
If someone's thinking aboutelectrifying their home or
making their home more efficient, that's often not something
that someone's going to sit downand do all at once.
You really want to look atthings over time and replace
things as needed.
One of the first things that weencourage people to do if they
don't already know a lot abouttheir energy needs get an energy
(08:58):
audit, where you have someonecome in and look at your home
and give you some suggestions.
Have an electrician look andgive you an assessment of
whether you need any upgrades tobe ready.
So if you have a gas stove rightnow and you know that it's
going to last 10 more years, youknow we're not saying everyone
needs to run out right now andreplace it.
(09:18):
Some of these things will go onthe list of like.
When it breaks, be ready sothat you're not in an emergency
and have to run out and buy anew gas one.
If your intention is eventuallyto be electric, then you, you
know, go ahead and know what youneed for the electric work to
replace these appliances so thatwhen they break, you're ready.
There are tax credits availablenow and through 2032 for a lot
(09:41):
of those individual home energyupgrades for households and so
that those being available till2032 for a lot of those
individual home energy upgradesfor households and so that those
being available till 2032 cangive people a range of time to
be thinking about making thesechanges.
Lori Ann Santamaria (09:56):
And I know you guys have provided a lot of
detailed information on that.
I know you had a webinarrecently around that.
Is that available on yourwebsite?
Cary Ritzler (10:03):
Yes, it is, and I can also share it with you, so
you can include it in links.
Lori Ann Santamaria (10:08):
Okay, so those three steps that you
outlined, that's actually a lotof work that needs to happen.
There's a really big transitionthat needs to happen in our
economy, in our society.
So what are some tools that arebeing used in order to help
that transition along?
Cary Ritzler (10:23):
One of the big things that we have in our hands
right now are two federal lawsthat passed in the last few
years, called the InflationReduction Act, also called the
IRA, and the BipartisanInfrastructure Law.
Both of these laws that werepassed during the Biden
administration provide fundingin the forms of grants and
(10:46):
incentives.
So I talked a little bit aboutthe tax credits.
There are tax credits availablenow for people who have a tax
liability.
There's also tax credits forEVs, which I think Dori can talk
more about.
There's a tranche of grantscoming out, called the Solar for
All grants.
We're expecting every state tohave an entity like a nonprofit
(11:08):
or a government entity that getsa Solar for All grant, and
we're expecting thoseannouncements very soon,
possibly even this month.
Lori Ann Santamaria (11:17):
I've also heard about regulations or rules
with the EPA to limit pollution.
Can you shed light on thattopic?
Cary Ritzler (11:25):
Yeah, under President Biden the EPA has put
in place several rules thatlimit harmful air pollution and
tighten standards for thingslike vehicle tailpipe emissions
that was a recent rule Applianceefficiency, harmful soot and
methane pollution.
We're expecting very soon EPAwill announce a new set of rules
to regulate, for the first time, carbon emissions from power
(11:46):
plants, and the EPA hasexpressed plans to continue
limiting pollution through thatrulemaking process.
But of course that's apresidential administration
guided process and so how it allplays out depends on the
presidential elections.
Epa is controlled by whicheverpresident is in office, so there
can be, and we often see, verybig shifts between presidential
(12:08):
administrations At SACE.
We don't get involved inelectoral politics, but we do
want people to know thatelections have big consequences
for climate policy.
But you know, it's beenexciting to see these new
protective rules come out of theEPA over the past few years.
Lori Ann Santamaria (12:25):
And that's a really important point.
I like to turn our attentionnow to transportation.
Dory, you're the expert on thisfor SACE, but we're lucky that
you are also a Floridian, so Ithink you probably know that
most of our listeners here inNortheast Florida are customers
of JEA, and last year JEA'senergy mix included 3% renewable
sources and 3% from nuclear, sothat's a total of just 6% of
(12:47):
carbon-free electricity, so 94%of our energy is coming from
fossil fuels.
Because of this, some peoplethink that switching to an EV is
going to have little impact ontheir overall emissions.
How would you respond to thatconcern?
Dory Larsen (13:01):
Yeah, I think that that you know inherently, people
think that.
But when you peel back theonion and you look at the data
and the facts behind it, itbecomes a lot more clear that
electric transportation is thesingle best way to reduce
emissions, and part of it iswhat Cary talked about in terms
of energy efficiency.
So if you think of energyefficiency with vehicles, an
(13:24):
electric vehicle is just farmore efficient.
About 80% of the electrons thatgo into the car move it down
the road, and the inverse istrue with a gas car.
Because of the combustionprocess, a lot of it's converted
to heat, so only about 20% ofthe gasoline that you put in
your car actually moves the cardown the road.
So when you calculate emissions, we have calculators that do
(13:48):
that.
There's a really cool one onfueleconomy.
gov that I've shared and itwould be great if folks can take
a look at it.
You can put in your zip codeand it will actually tell you
how many emissions are generated, either per mile or annually.
And in Florida an EV makesabout 2,600 pounds of carbon
emissions, compared to a regularcar that puts out about 12,500
(14:16):
pounds of carbon emissionsannually.
So it's only about 20% of theemissions that are when you're
driving an electric vehiclecompared to a gas car, even if
the energy that's fueling theelectricity is from a fossil
source, because it really justhas to do with the efficiency of
the machine.
Lori Ann Santamaria (14:38):
Okay, great .
So we're making an impact, evenif our grid isn't necessarily
clean, but then also, over time,as our grid hopefully gets
cleaner and cleaner, then the EVthat you're driving is going to
get cleaner and cleaner as well, I guess.
Does that make sense?
Dory Larsen (14:53):
That's kind of how I look at it.
Emissions are virtually zero,besides the initial you know
production of the vehicle, whichpencils out at about 18,000
miles of driving.
So in about a year and a halfworth of driving, even the
(15:18):
upstream emissions to create thebattery are canceled out.
So you know, I'm powering myEVs from our rooftop solar and
it's very, very few emissions todrive our cars.
Lori Ann Santamaria (15:25):
So okay.
So for people that haveswitched to an EV already, JEA
has a program to encourage EVcustomers to charge their
vehicles during off-peak hours,and basically that means if
customers refrain from chargingon weekdays between 6 am and 10
pm, they are eligible for arebate of $7 a month.
And at the time that I waslooking into it for my vehicle,
(15:45):
JEA's energy mix was actuallyonly 2% carbon-free electricity
at the time, and I think thatwas all from solar.
So my thought process was thatif I charged at night, I would
definitely be using fossil fuelsto charge my car, but if I
charged during the day at least,I had a really, really small
chance.
But I had a chance that solarwould be used to charge my car,
and so for a while, my little,my small act of protest was to
(16:11):
decline the rebate and chargeduring the day.
Dory Larsen (16:12):
Tell me why it was wrong.
Yeah, so this all has to dowith managed charging and trying
to use electrons that they aregenerating overnight when demand
is low, because it impacts thegrid's capacity.
So managed charging is thisidea that you charge when the
electricity companies, the powercompanies, are producing
(16:33):
electricity and then you'regobbling up those extra
electrons at night when demandis low.
So a study was recently done bySynapse Energy Economics and
they found that EV driversprovided $3 billion in revenue
to the grid between 2011 and2021.
And what that's demonstratingand it had been theoretical, but
(16:57):
now it's actually concreteevidence that EVs are putting
downward pressure on rates foreveryone.
So they found that even throughcost, including grid upgrades,
the cost for electricity andtransmission revenue is still up
for the utilities to the tuneof $2.4 billion.
And then utilities have toreport that increased revenue in
(17:18):
rate proceedings and then ratesand bills are adjusted so those
rates benefit all customers,not just EV drivers.
So it really is a win-win.
Lori Ann Santamaria (17:28):
Because we're switching to electric
vehicles, the utilities aremaking more money.
Is that correct?
That is correct, Okay.
So how does that then result inlower rates for us, for
everybody?
Dory Larsen (17:41):
So utilities are increasing revenue and then they
have to report that increasedrevenue in rate proceedings and
then it adjusts the rates in thebills for everyone, okay, so
rates benefit all customers, notjust EV drivers.
Lori Ann Santamaria (17:59):
So is it true that, for example, for an
investor-owned utility, they areonly allowed to make a certain
percentage?
Correct, okay, okay, so becausethe utilities are allowed to
make a certain, they're onlyallowed to make a certain amount
.
If EVs are bringing to make acertain, they're only allowed to
make a certain amount.
If EVs are bringing more on tothe grid, then they're still
only allowed to make thatcertain amount, and so it gets
divided across everybody and therates are then lowered, exactly
(18:22):
, okay, all right, I understand.
Thank you so, dori.
What are some of the incentivesthat are available for people
that are ready to make theswitch?
Dory Larsen (18:33):
for people that are ready to make the switch.
Yeah, so, like you mentioned,the JEA rebate program is $7 a
month if you charge off-peak.
They also have $300 forpre-wiring for if you want to
put a charging unit in yourhouse, and then that can be
combined with some of thefederal tax credits that Carrie
had mentioned.
So there are several federaltax credits that folks can apply
for, either as an individual,for their home, for their
(18:53):
personal use, or now, because ofthe new direct pay provisions,
nonprofit organizations andlocal governments that are tax
exempt and have previously neverhad tax liability are able to
take these credits.
So it's really exciting thatyou're getting this whole new
group of people that are able totap into these tax credits.
(19:16):
So the first one is called 30C.
It's a credit for the chargingunits themselves, so it's up to
$1,000 for individuals, or up to$100,000 per unit, so per
charging station, for businessesand, like I mentioned, local
governments and tax-exemptentities now qualify.
(19:36):
So that's one for the chargingunits themselves.
There's also a used EV credit,which is also 30% up to $4,000.
And it's for vehicles that costup to $25,000.
And there are wage requirementsas well, so as an individual,
you can't make more than $75,000a year or, if you file jointly,
(19:56):
$150,000 a year.
There's also a new cleanelectric vehicle credit.
Similar it's up to 30%, max isout at $7,500.
But there are battery contentand production requirements.
So fueleconomygov has a list ofall of the qualifying vehicles.
And then, finally, I'll mentionthe commercial vehicle credit,
(20:20):
which is really exciting.
So this can apply to a leaseand it also does not have the
prevailing battery contentqualifications, so a lot more
models qualify.
So for local governments, theycan now, like I said, take the
tax credit and get up to $7,500on a vehicle that weighs less
(20:42):
than 14,000 pounds.
But they also apply up to$40,000 for medium and heavy
duty trucks.
So if they want to switch to anelectric refuse truck, you can
apply those credits.
Lori Ann Santamaria (20:55):
So that's something that small businesses
will be able to tap into as well.
Yep, absolutely, and as aconsumer.
Dory Larsen (21:00):
You know, if you don't have, like Carrie
mentioned, tax liability, a lotof the dealerships will offer a
lease and you can take thecommercial vehicle credit
through that.
So there are a lot of reallyattractive lease offers right
now for electric vehicles usingthat commercial credit.
Lori Ann Santamaria (21:17):
Okay, yeah, thank you for mentioning that.
I know a lot of people havebeen asking that question about
purchase versus lease.
I think that that will behelpful for people to understand
how that works.
So I think some of what yousaid touches on this a little
bit with respect to the charginginfrastructure, but a big
component of electrifyingtransportation will be in
addressing fleets.
Can you tell us about any workthat's being done in Florida
(21:40):
with respect to that?
Dory Larsen (21:42):
Yeah, I mean, one of the fleets that I'm really
excited about and that SACE hasbeen doing some work on is
electric school buses in Florida.
So there was an opportunitywith the Volkswagen diesel gate
settlement.
There was $60 million awardedfor electric school buses and
then now the EPA has a cleanschool bus program and so there
(22:04):
are quite a few school districtsacross the state that have been
starting to transition toelectric school buses.
Florida has 379 committedvehicles electric school buses
and there's already 182operating in the state, so
that'll impact almost 8,500students.
Lots of different districts, soMiami-Dade, Broward, Palm Beach
(22:26):
County, Orange County, DuvalCounty, Dixie, Hillsborough,
Manatee, Pinellas and Glades soit's a mix of urban and rural,
which is really nice that thesebenefits are being spread across
the state.
Lori Ann Santamaria (22:37):
That's really exciting to hear that's
going on in our backyard.
Dory Larsen (22:40):
Yeah, it is.
A lot of the emissions fromschool buses sit right where the
children are sitting andthere's studies that have
demonstrated that it impactscognitive ability.
It impacts test scores.
So to be able to transition ourschool bus fleet and get kids
in healthier rides to school isreally important.
Lori Ann Santamaria (23:00):
Yeah, that's great.
I know we've talked a lot aboutgetting off of fossil fuels and
reducing carbon emissionsspecifically, but from what you
just mentioned, there are a lotof bad things that are coming
out of the end of school buses,so to be able to transition away
from that helps the kids inmany ways.
Dory Larsen (23:14):
And not just the kids but also the community,
because there are tons ofemissions that are coming off of
those buses that impact folksthat are prone to asthma and
cardiac patients.
So it improves the air qualityof the entire community.
So we've been sayingtheoretically that it should
work, but out in San Francisco,where they have these emissions
(23:38):
sensors, they've actually beenable to demonstrate that, as the
rise of EV adoption ishappening, you're seeing vehicle
emission rates dropping 2.6%annually.
Lori Ann Santamaria (23:52):
With that.
Is there anything else we wantto say about transportation?
I think you covered it verywell.
Dory Larsen (23:56):
Thank you.
Yeah, no, I think it's mainlyjust that 30% of our emissions
are coming from transportation.
So if we're serious aboutreducing emissions, then cutting
transportation emissions has tobe a key part of all of these
plans.
Lori Ann Santamaria (24:12):
Carrie, one initiative that I think our
listeners would be interested inis the clean energy generation.
Can you tell us about that?
Cary Ritzler (24:18):
Yeah, I would love to, because this is one of the
main lines of work in SACE thatI'm involved in.
It's been very exciting to helplaunch this movement and to see
it grow.
We're building the clean energygeneration to be a movement of
people around the Southeast whoare working on bringing clean
energy to our homes and to ourcommunities.
(24:39):
We bring people together toshare success stories and to
work together to make sure thatthe individuals and communities
throughout the Southeast aregetting the full benefits of the
investments in climate andclean energy.
We host a monthly call for ourmembers around the region.
This gives people a space tomeet each other to learn about
(25:03):
the most significantdevelopments in the clean energy
space, opportunities forindividuals and communities to
work to bring more clean energyto the Southeast.
We host those on second Fridaysat noon.
But even if people can't makethe meetings, we still encourage
you to join the list, to get intouch and, especially if you
(25:23):
have a story to share, we wantto hear it.
Hearing stories of individualswho are taking action, even in
individuals who are takingaction even in very small ways,
is very inspiring to other folks, and I think you know you'd be
surprised how many of yourfriends and neighbors and people
all across the Southeast areeagerly trying to take advantage
(25:44):
of these opportunities and makesure that this is successful.
So those are really the storiesthat we're trying to tell, and
so we'd love for people to reachout to tell us about actions
you've taken in your own life orin your communities.
Lori Ann Santamaria (25:56):
Katherine Hayhoe often says that the most
important thing that you can doto address climate change is to
talk about climate change,because a lot of times your
neighbors are thinking about itand just not talking about it.
And the more we normalize theconversation, the easier it is
for us all to come togethercollectively and take action,
and I think the clean energygeneration does a great job at
that.
I've sat in on a couple ofthose calls and it gets really
(26:17):
helpful to hear what's going onin other cities in the Southeast
and how they have put forthjust like you mentioned earlier
in our conversation put forthresolutions for their cities to
commit to 100% clean energy.
The other thing that I enjoyabout this cause is usually
there's also time for us tobreak out state by state, and so
you can kind of get into alittle bit further detail with
(26:39):
people in your own state, whichis a really nice way to connect
and to learn from others.
I think what you guys are doingis really helpful and impactful
.
So thank you guys for that.
It's really been a pleasurespeaking with you.
Thank you guys for that.
It's really been a pleasurespeaking with you.
Thank you to Cary Ritzler andDory Larson for sharing their
knowledge about clean energy inthe Southeast, and thank you for
listening to today's episode.
(26:59):
If you enjoy the program,please let your friends know
about it and be sure to followus on your favorite podcast
platform.
And now today's one good thing.
If you live in NortheastFlorida, you might want to check
out Jacksonville ClimateCoalition's regular newsletter.
John Burr is a reporter withextensive experience covering
environmental issues, and in thenewsletter he discusses climate
(27:20):
change topics that arespecifically relevant to our You
can find it on www.
jaxclimate.
org.
Welcome to Sustainable North Florida.
I'm your host, Lori AnnSantamaria.
Cary Ritzler (00:05):
We're building a movement of people around the
Southeast to make sure thatindividuals and communities are
getting the full benefits of theinvestments in climate and
clean energy.
Lori Ann Santamaria (00:20):
Welcome to Sustainable North Florida.
I'm your host, Lori AnnSantamaria, and I am really
excited about today's episode.
It's one I've been wanting todo for a while.
We have Cary Ritzler and DoryLarsen on the show with us.
Cary and Dory are with theSouthern Alliance for Clean
Energy, also known as SACE.
I have been a fan of thisorganization for a while.
They're a great resource forunderstanding how the various
(00:40):
states in the Southeast aremaking the transition to a clean
energy economy andunderstanding how the various
states in the Southeast aremaking the transition to a clean
energy economy.
One of the things that Iappreciate about SACE is that
they provide concrete steps onwhat you can do as a citizen to
make an impact on reducingemissions.
So,Cary, let's start with you.
Can you tell us a little bitabout the organization and what
it is that you do at SACE?
Cary Ritzler (00:58):
Yeah, the Southern Alliance for Clean Energy is a
nonprofit organization thatpromotes responsible and
equitable energy choices toensure clean, safe and healthy
communities throughout theSoutheast.
We work in Florida, Georgia,South Carolina, North Carolina
and Tennessee and we've been aleading voice in energy policy
(01:20):
in our region for severaldecades In this work, SACE is
focused on transforming the waywe produce and consume energy in
the Southeast.
My role is I'm the climateadvocacy manager and a big part
of my work is engaging with ourmembers and just people around
the Southeast who want to getinvolved in helping people to
(01:42):
figure out how they can takeaction.
Lori Ann Santamaria (01:46):
And how did you get started here?
What is your background and howdid you end up at SACE?
Cary Ritzler (01:51):
Well, I was an elementary school teacher for
many years.
I had gotten very interested inclimate advocacy sort of on the
side and worked a lot locallywith just a handful of other
advocates who wanted to seeclean and renewable energy in
our town of Athens, Georgia.
We called it the 100% RenewableEnergy Initiative and we
(02:16):
achieved a local resolution in2020 to get a 100% clean and
renewable energy resolutionpassed by the city council.
We also found some funding tohelp them get started and it was
through that work that I justgot very interested in the
transition to clean andrenewable energy.
(02:36):
I went back to school to get adegree in public administration
to help me figure out how allthe different levels of
government work, which has beensuper helpful, and as I was
finishing my degree, I was luckyenough to find a position here
at SACE.
Lori Ann Santamaria (02:54):
Dory, can you tell us a little bit about
your background and what yourcurrent role is at SACE?
Dory Larsen (02:58):
Sure.
So I'm the Senior ElectricTransportation Program Manager
at SACE and I've been with theorganization for over six years
now and it's been really fun towatch the space grow of electric
transportation while I've beenin the role.
My background, my master'sdegree, is in public health and
(03:20):
I spent a lot of time like Caryin public education.
I'm in Pinellas County inTarpon Springs, got involved in
a local effort because werealized they were building on
70 acres of undeveloped propertya super center for a box store
and started a communityorganization to keep that from
(03:40):
happening and just realized theenormous amount of energy and
force that community membershave when they raise their
voices collectively.
So I really was empowered bythat community organizing effort
and decided to switch careersand wanted to do something
similar.
So got an opportunity with SACEas the EV associate.
(04:04):
So started off very low on thetotem pole and learned a lot and
have grown, like I said, as thespace has matured, and it's
been a wild ride to where we aretoday.
Lori Ann Santamaria (04:17):
So you guys frame a lot of your discussions
around the clean energy economy, which I like.
Everything that we do each dayis impacted by economics, and
talking about things from adollars and cents perspective
really makes it easier forpeople to understand how their
everyday choices can impactcarbon emissions.
Cary, can you describe what youmean when you use the term
clean energy economy?
Cary Ritzler (04:38):
A lot of our economy right now is powered by
fossil fuels.
That includes coal, oil,natural gas, also called fossil
gas it's a fossil fuel.
You know the gasoline we put inour cars, etc.
So a lot of the things that wedo, the way we move around our
(04:59):
communities, the way we get ourgoods and the way we run our
households has been poweredhistorically and continues to be
powered by fossil fuels, andthose are, of course, causing
pollution that leads to climatechange, which has all sorts of
negative impacts, some of whichwe are seeing now and many of
(05:19):
which we are likely to continueseeing in the future,
particularly if we do not moveinto a cleaner way of powering
all of those things that get usall through our days, you know.
So when we think about how toget to a clean energy economy,
there's three big buckets where,you know I'd put most of the
things we need to do to get to aclean energy economy.
(05:42):
So the first thing is to makeeverything way more efficient.
So if we are able to use lessenergy of any kind, no matter
how it's produced, then that,for one thing, reduces our
reliance on fossil fuel, even ifwe are continuing to have
fossil fuels in the mix and italso makes it more possible for
(06:06):
us to meet the needs of poweringour daily lives with clean
energy, because we will simplybe using less of it.
The second step is to electrifyeverything, and in that step,
you know, you're kind ofshifting some things that many
of us do right now.
So when we talk aboutelectrifying everything, we're
(06:28):
talking about turning as many ofthose activities and really all
of those activities areeligible to be powered by
electricity.
Instead, instead of having aninternal combustion engine car,
you can have an electric car.
Instead of heating your waterwith gas, you can heat it with
electricity, etc.
The third step is to maximizerenewable energy.
(06:52):
So there's a few ways to dothat.
A big one for the southeast isrooftop solar, so putting solar
panels right on the site.
Another part of maximizing ourrenewable energy is to
distribute the generation ofelectricity.
So under the current paradigmwith fossil fuels, our
(07:13):
electricity is most oftenproduced in really big power
plants that may be pretty farfrom where we're using it, and
then it travels on power linesall the way to every little
building in the territory thatgets electricity.
So if you're talking aboutdistributed generation, then you
may be thinking about puttingyou know community solar or
(07:35):
little bitty grids of solar wecall microgrids, and sort of
collecting smaller sites ofenergy distributed around the
territory instead of just havingthings produced in a big fossil
fuel plant somewhere.
Lori Ann Santamaria (07:49):
I remember reading at one point that about
40 percent of the energy is lostover transmission, so if you're
moving from having electricityproduced at the power plant to
having solar, for example, Imean that actually makes it much
more efficient, because you'renot losing that over the
transmission lines.
Yes, absolutely so.
I recently switched to a heatpump water heater, and now the
(08:11):
cost for me to heat water at myhome is just one quarter of what
I used to spend, so it's areally big difference.
But the thing with somethinglike a water heater is that it's
usually an emergency purchase,and that's what happened to me.
My last water heater stoppedworking, and I needed to get a
new one.
I was lucky, though, becausethe unit that I was replacing
was already electric.
If you happen to be on gas,though, switching to an electric
(08:33):
one is more complicated.
Do you have any suggestions onhow people can handle that?
Cary Ritzler (08:37):
That's a great question.
If someone's thinking aboutelectrifying their home or
making their home more efficient, that's often not something
that someone's going to sit downand do all at once.
You really want to look atthings over time and replace
things as needed.
One of the first things that weencourage people to do if they
don't already know a lot abouttheir energy needs get an energy
(08:58):
audit, where you have someonecome in and look at your home
and give you some suggestions.
Have an electrician look andgive you an assessment of
whether you need any upgrades tobe ready.
So if you have a gas stove rightnow and you know that it's
going to last 10 more years, youknow we're not saying everyone
needs to run out right now andreplace it.
(09:18):
Some of these things will go onthe list of like.
When it breaks, be ready sothat you're not in an emergency
and have to run out and buy anew gas one.
If your intention is eventuallyto be electric, then you, you
know, go ahead and know what youneed for the electric work to
replace these appliances so thatwhen they break, you're ready.
There are tax credits availablenow and through 2032 for a lot
(09:41):
of those individual home energyupgrades for households and so
that those being available till2032 for a lot of those
individual home energy upgradesfor households and so that those
being available till 2032 cangive people a range of time to
be thinking about making thesechanges.
Lori Ann Santamaria (09:56):
And I know you guys have provided a lot of
detailed information on that.
I know you had a webinarrecently around that.
Is that available on yourwebsite?
Cary Ritzler (10:03):
Yes, it is, and I can also share it with you, so
you can include it in links.
Lori Ann Santamaria (10:08):
Okay, so those three steps that you
outlined, that's actually a lotof work that needs to happen.
There's a really big transitionthat needs to happen in our
economy, in our society.
So what are some tools that arebeing used in order to help
that transition along?
Cary Ritzler (10:23):
One of the big things that we have in our hands
right now are two federal lawsthat passed in the last few
years, called the InflationReduction Act, also called the
IRA, and the BipartisanInfrastructure Law.
Both of these laws that werepassed during the Biden
administration provide fundingin the forms of grants and
(10:46):
incentives.
So I talked a little bit aboutthe tax credits.
There are tax credits availablenow for people who have a tax
liability.
There's also tax credits forEVs, which I think Dori can talk
more about.
There's a tranche of grantscoming out, called the Solar for
All grants.
We're expecting every state tohave an entity like a nonprofit
(11:08):
or a government entity that getsa Solar for All grant, and
we're expecting thoseannouncements very soon,
possibly even this month.
Lori Ann Santamaria (11:17):
I've also heard about regulations or rules
with the EPA to limit pollution.
Can you shed light on thattopic?
Cary Ritzler (11:25):
Yeah, under President Biden the EPA has put
in place several rules thatlimit harmful air pollution and
tighten standards for thingslike vehicle tailpipe emissions
that was a recent rule Applianceefficiency, harmful soot and
methane pollution.
We're expecting very soon EPAwill announce a new set of rules
to regulate, for the first time, carbon emissions from power
(11:46):
plants, and the EPA hasexpressed plans to continue
limiting pollution through thatrulemaking process.
But of course that's apresidential administration
guided process and so how it allplays out depends on the
presidential elections.
Epa is controlled by whicheverpresident is in office, so there
can be, and we often see, verybig shifts between presidential
(12:08):
administrations At SACE.
We don't get involved inelectoral politics, but we do
want people to know thatelections have big consequences
for climate policy.
But you know, it's beenexciting to see these new
protective rules come out of theEPA over the past few years.
Lori Ann Santamaria (12:25):
And that's a really important point.
I like to turn our attentionnow to transportation.
Dory, you're the expert on thisfor SACE, but we're lucky that
you are also a Floridian, so Ithink you probably know that
most of our listeners here inNortheast Florida are customers
of JEA, and last year JEA'senergy mix included 3% renewable
sources and 3% from nuclear, sothat's a total of just 6% of
(12:47):
carbon-free electricity, so 94%of our energy is coming from
fossil fuels.
Because of this, some peoplethink that switching to an EV is
going to have little impact ontheir overall emissions.
How would you respond to thatconcern?
Dory Larsen (13:01):
Yeah, I think that that you know inherently, people
think that.
But when you peel back theonion and you look at the data
and the facts behind it, itbecomes a lot more clear that
electric transportation is thesingle best way to reduce
emissions, and part of it iswhat Cary talked about in terms
of energy efficiency.
So if you think of energyefficiency with vehicles, an
(13:24):
electric vehicle is just farmore efficient.
About 80% of the electrons thatgo into the car move it down
the road, and the inverse istrue with a gas car.
Because of the combustionprocess, a lot of it's converted
to heat, so only about 20% ofthe gasoline that you put in
your car actually moves the cardown the road.
So when you calculate emissions, we have calculators that do
(13:48):
that.
There's a really cool one onfueleconomy.
gov that I've shared and itwould be great if folks can take
a look at it.
You can put in your zip codeand it will actually tell you
how many emissions are generated, either per mile or annually.
And in Florida an EV makesabout 2,600 pounds of carbon
emissions, compared to a regularcar that puts out about 12,500
(14:16):
pounds of carbon emissionsannually.
So it's only about 20% of theemissions that are when you're
driving an electric vehiclecompared to a gas car, even if
the energy that's fueling theelectricity is from a fossil
source, because it really justhas to do with the efficiency of
the machine.
Lori Ann Santamaria (14:38):
Okay, great .
So we're making an impact, evenif our grid isn't necessarily
clean, but then also, over time,as our grid hopefully gets
cleaner and cleaner, then the EVthat you're driving is going to
get cleaner and cleaner as well, I guess.
Does that make sense?
Dory Larsen (14:53):
That's kind of how I look at it.
Emissions are virtually zero,besides the initial you know
production of the vehicle, whichpencils out at about 18,000
miles of driving.
So in about a year and a halfworth of driving, even the
(15:18):
upstream emissions to create thebattery are canceled out.
So you know, I'm powering myEVs from our rooftop solar and
it's very, very few emissions todrive our cars.
Lori Ann Santamaria (15:25):
So okay.
So for people that haveswitched to an EV already, JEA
has a program to encourage EVcustomers to charge their
vehicles during off-peak hours,and basically that means if
customers refrain from chargingon weekdays between 6 am and 10
pm, they are eligible for arebate of $7 a month.
And at the time that I waslooking into it for my vehicle,
(15:45):
JEA's energy mix was actuallyonly 2% carbon-free electricity
at the time, and I think thatwas all from solar.
So my thought process was thatif I charged at night, I would
definitely be using fossil fuelsto charge my car, but if I
charged during the day at least,I had a really, really small
chance.
But I had a chance that solarwould be used to charge my car,
and so for a while, my little,my small act of protest was to
(16:11):
decline the rebate and chargeduring the day.
Dory Larsen (16:12):
Tell me why it was wrong.
Yeah, so this all has to dowith managed charging and trying
to use electrons that they aregenerating overnight when demand
is low, because it impacts thegrid's capacity.
So managed charging is thisidea that you charge when the
electricity companies, the powercompanies, are producing
(16:33):
electricity and then you'regobbling up those extra
electrons at night when demandis low.
So a study was recently done bySynapse Energy Economics and
they found that EV driversprovided $3 billion in revenue
to the grid between 2011 and2021.
And what that's demonstratingand it had been theoretical, but
(16:57):
now it's actually concreteevidence that EVs are putting
downward pressure on rates foreveryone.
So they found that even throughcost, including grid upgrades,
the cost for electricity andtransmission revenue is still up
for the utilities to the tuneof $2.4 billion.
And then utilities have toreport that increased revenue in
(17:18):
rate proceedings and then ratesand bills are adjusted so those
rates benefit all customers,not just EV drivers.
So it really is a win-win.
Lori Ann Santamaria (17:28):
Because we're switching to electric
vehicles, the utilities aremaking more money.
Is that correct?
That is correct, Okay.
So how does that then result inlower rates for us, for
everybody?
Dory Larsen (17:41):
So utilities are increasing revenue and then they
have to report that increasedrevenue in rate proceedings and
then it adjusts the rates in thebills for everyone, okay, so
rates benefit all customers, notjust EV drivers.
Lori Ann Santamaria (17:59):
So is it true that, for example, for an
investor-owned utility, they areonly allowed to make a certain
percentage?
Correct, okay, okay, so becausethe utilities are allowed to
make a certain, they're onlyallowed to make a certain amount
.
If EVs are bringing to make acertain, they're only allowed to
make a certain amount.
If EVs are bringing more on tothe grid, then they're still
only allowed to make thatcertain amount, and so it gets
divided across everybody and therates are then lowered, exactly
(18:22):
, okay, all right, I understand.
Thank you so, dori.
What are some of the incentivesthat are available for people
that are ready to make theswitch?
Dory Larsen (18:33):
for people that are ready to make the switch.
Yeah, so, like you mentioned,the JEA rebate program is $7 a
month if you charge off-peak.
They also have $300 forpre-wiring for if you want to
put a charging unit in yourhouse, and then that can be
combined with some of thefederal tax credits that Carrie
had mentioned.
So there are several federaltax credits that folks can apply
for, either as an individual,for their home, for their
(18:53):
personal use, or now, because ofthe new direct pay provisions,
nonprofit organizations andlocal governments that are tax
exempt and have previously neverhad tax liability are able to
take these credits.
So it's really exciting thatyou're getting this whole new
group of people that are able totap into these tax credits.
(19:16):
So the first one is called 30C.
It's a credit for the chargingunits themselves, so it's up to
$1,000 for individuals, or up to$100,000 per unit, so per
charging station, for businessesand, like I mentioned, local
governments and tax-exemptentities now qualify.
(19:36):
So that's one for the chargingunits themselves.
There's also a used EV credit,which is also 30% up to $4,000.
And it's for vehicles that costup to $25,000.
And there are wage requirementsas well, so as an individual,
you can't make more than $75,000a year or, if you file jointly,
(19:56):
$150,000 a year.
There's also a new cleanelectric vehicle credit.
Similar it's up to 30%, max isout at $7,500.
But there are battery contentand production requirements.
So fueleconomygov has a list ofall of the qualifying vehicles.
And then, finally, I'll mentionthe commercial vehicle credit,
(20:20):
which is really exciting.
So this can apply to a leaseand it also does not have the
prevailing battery contentqualifications, so a lot more
models qualify.
So for local governments, theycan now, like I said, take the
tax credit and get up to $7,500on a vehicle that weighs less
(20:42):
than 14,000 pounds.
But they also apply up to$40,000 for medium and heavy
duty trucks.
So if they want to switch to anelectric refuse truck, you can
apply those credits.
Lori Ann Santamaria (20:55):
So that's something that small businesses
will be able to tap into as well.
Yep, absolutely, and as aconsumer.
Dory Larsen (21:00):
You know, if you don't have, like Carrie
mentioned, tax liability, a lotof the dealerships will offer a
lease and you can take thecommercial vehicle credit
through that.
So there are a lot of reallyattractive lease offers right
now for electric vehicles usingthat commercial credit.
Lori Ann Santamaria (21:17):
Okay, yeah, thank you for mentioning that.
I know a lot of people havebeen asking that question about
purchase versus lease.
I think that that will behelpful for people to understand
how that works.
So I think some of what yousaid touches on this a little
bit with respect to the charginginfrastructure, but a big
component of electrifyingtransportation will be in
addressing fleets.
Can you tell us about any workthat's being done in Florida
(21:40):
with respect to that?
Dory Larsen (21:42):
Yeah, I mean, one of the fleets that I'm really
excited about and that SACE hasbeen doing some work on is
electric school buses in Florida.
So there was an opportunitywith the Volkswagen diesel gate
settlement.
There was $60 million awardedfor electric school buses and
then now the EPA has a cleanschool bus program and so there
(22:04):
are quite a few school districtsacross the state that have been
starting to transition toelectric school buses.
Florida has 379 committedvehicles electric school buses
and there's already 182operating in the state, so
that'll impact almost 8,500students.
Lots of different districts, soMiami-Dade, Broward, Palm Beach
(22:26):
County, Orange County, DuvalCounty, Dixie, Hillsborough,
Manatee, Pinellas and Glades soit's a mix of urban and rural,
which is really nice that thesebenefits are being spread across
the state.
Lori Ann Santamaria (22:37):
That's really exciting to hear that's
going on in our backyard.
Dory Larsen (22:40):
Yeah, it is.
A lot of the emissions fromschool buses sit right where the
children are sitting andthere's studies that have
demonstrated that it impactscognitive ability.
It impacts test scores.
So to be able to transition ourschool bus fleet and get kids
in healthier rides to school isreally important.
Lori Ann Santamaria (23:00):
Yeah, that's great.
I know we've talked a lot aboutgetting off of fossil fuels and
reducing carbon emissionsspecifically, but from what you
just mentioned, there are a lotof bad things that are coming
out of the end of school buses,so to be able to transition away
from that helps the kids inmany ways.
Dory Larsen (23:14):
And not just the kids but also the community,
because there are tons ofemissions that are coming off of
those buses that impact folksthat are prone to asthma and
cardiac patients.
So it improves the air qualityof the entire community.
So we've been sayingtheoretically that it should
work, but out in San Francisco,where they have these emissions
(23:38):
sensors, they've actually beenable to demonstrate that, as the
rise of EV adoption ishappening, you're seeing vehicle
emission rates dropping 2.6%annually.
Lori Ann Santamaria (23:52):
With that.
Is there anything else we wantto say about transportation?
I think you covered it verywell.
Dory Larsen (23:56):
Thank you.
Yeah, no, I think it's mainlyjust that 30% of our emissions
are coming from transportation.
So if we're serious aboutreducing emissions, then cutting
transportation emissions has tobe a key part of all of these
plans.
Lori Ann Santamaria (24:12):
Carrie, one initiative that I think our
listeners would be interested inis the clean energy generation.
Can you tell us about that?
Cary Ritzler (24:18):
Yeah, I would love to, because this is one of the
main lines of work in SACE thatI'm involved in.
It's been very exciting to helplaunch this movement and to see
it grow.
We're building the clean energygeneration to be a movement of
people around the Southeast whoare working on bringing clean
energy to our homes and to ourcommunities.
(24:39):
We bring people together toshare success stories and to
work together to make sure thatthe individuals and communities
throughout the Southeast aregetting the full benefits of the
investments in climate andclean energy.
We host a monthly call for ourmembers around the region.
This gives people a space tomeet each other to learn about
(25:03):
the most significantdevelopments in the clean energy
space, opportunities forindividuals and communities to
work to bring more clean energyto the Southeast.
We host those on second Fridaysat noon.
But even if people can't makethe meetings, we still encourage
you to join the list, to get intouch and, especially if you
(25:23):
have a story to share, we wantto hear it.
Hearing stories of individualswho are taking action, even in
individuals who are takingaction even in very small ways,
is very inspiring to other folks, and I think you know you'd be
surprised how many of yourfriends and neighbors and people
all across the Southeast areeagerly trying to take advantage
(25:44):
of these opportunities and makesure that this is successful.
So those are really the storiesthat we're trying to tell, and
so we'd love for people to reachout to tell us about actions
you've taken in your own life orin your communities.
Lori Ann Santamaria (25:56):
Katherine Hayhoe often says that the most
important thing that you can doto address climate change is to
talk about climate change,because a lot of times your
neighbors are thinking about itand just not talking about it.
And the more we normalize theconversation, the easier it is
for us all to come togethercollectively and take action,
and I think the clean energygeneration does a great job at
that.
I've sat in on a couple ofthose calls and it gets really
(26:17):
helpful to hear what's going onin other cities in the Southeast
and how they have put forthjust like you mentioned earlier
in our conversation put forthresolutions for their cities to
commit to 100% clean energy.
The other thing that I enjoyabout this cause is usually
there's also time for us tobreak out state by state, and so
you can kind of get into alittle bit further detail with
(26:39):
people in your own state, whichis a really nice way to connect
and to learn from others.
I think what you guys are doingis really helpful and impactful
.
So thank you guys for that.
It's really been a pleasurespeaking with you.
Thank you guys for that.
It's really been a pleasurespeaking with you.
Thank you to Cary Ritzler andDory Larson for sharing their
knowledge about clean energy inthe Southeast, and thank you for
listening to today's episode.
(26:59):
If you enjoy the program,please let your friends know
about it and be sure to followus on your favorite podcast
platform.
And now today's one good thing.
If you live in NortheastFlorida, you might want to check
out Jacksonville ClimateCoalition's regular newsletter.
John Burr is a reporter withextensive experience covering
environmental issues, and in thenewsletter he discusses climate
(27:20):
change topics that arespecifically relevant to our You
can find it on www.
jaxclimate.
org.
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