April 6, 2025 • 26 mins
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Did you know California is working towards a ban on compostable packaging?
If we don't act now this may be a huge challenge for compostable packaging in the future.
It was a true pleasure to interview Rhodes Yepsen the Executive Director of the Biodegradable Products Institute. And there could be a bright future ahead!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Cory Connors (00:00):
Welcome to Sustainable Packaging
(00:01):
with Cory Connors.
Today's guest is a longtimefriend of mine and somebody
I've been hoping to have onthe show for many years, Mr.
Rhodes Yepsen, the ExecutiveDirector of the Biodegradable
Products Institute.
How are you, sir?
Rhodes Yep (00:16):
Doing great, thanks.
Thanks for having me, Corey.
Cory Connors (00:18):
Yeah, thanks for being on.
Like, like we were talkingabout before we started,
this is something thatwe've been trying to do for
years, and it's great thatschedule's finally worked out.
And I think what you'redoing at that, at BPI is
incredible work and reallyimportant work for the future
of sustainable packaging.
And it's, it's somethingthat a lot of people don't
know very much about.
(00:38):
So I'm excited tospread the word.
but before we go intoall that stuff, can
you tell us about you?
what got you to thispoint in your career?
Rhodes Yepsen (00:48):
Yeah, thanks.
I went to Oberlin College,which is a liberal arts college
in Ohio, and had dreams ofbeing an environmental writer.
after graduation, I traveledaround and did different jobs
working at a national park inHawaii, working at a nonprofit
in Washington, D. C. Workingat a literary magazine in San
(01:08):
Francisco, and then fortuitouslylanded a job at Biocycle
magazine, close to where I grewup, as a writer and editor.
Biocycle is a compostingmagazine, and that's where
I really fell in love withcompost as this, perfect
sweet spot of all thesedifferent environmental
topics and societal topicsthat I was interested in.
(01:28):
Food waste andlocal food systems.
climate change, plastics,and sustainable packaging.
And, at BioCycle, I was ableto dive into all of these
subjects, research and writeabout them, and really hone
my writing skills for anindustry style publication.
and that led me down the pathof working with a variety
of compostable packagingcompanies, and the role
(01:50):
that packaging can play.
In broader composting effortsand brought me to BPI.
Cory Connors (01:56):
Well, that sounds like the perfect
background for your job.
And, it's like you couldn'thave written a better script.
love it.
Well done.
And it sounds like you'vebeen very focused on the
environment your wholelife and your whole career.
Is that something thatyour, your family was
very excited about?
Or just grew up like,like me, in a place where
they cared about that?
Rhodes Yepsen (02:15):
yeah, exactly.
So I grew up inrural Pennsylvania.
My parents met working atRodale Press, which BioCycle is
actually an offshoot of, and ifyou don't know Rodale, Rodale
was the sort of founder of theorganic ag movement in the US.
So they had early publicationsabout organic agriculture.
Organic gardeningand farming magazine.
(02:36):
They have Rodale Institutewhere they did research and
continue to do research aroundorganic farming practices.
And my dad continued to workwhile I grew up at Rodale or
and various publications isan author and illustrator.
writing books aboutheirloom vegetables
and apples and berries.
and so yeah, I grew up with thisconservation mindset and wanting
(02:58):
to have a positive impact and bea communicator to bridge these
gaps on a variety of topics,that, relate back to healthy
people and healthy planet.
Cory Connors (03:08):
Now you're making me hungry talking about
all these delicious foods.
I love it.
let's talk about BPI.
What is the BiodegradableProducts Institute?
What do you do there?
What's the focus?
Rhodes Yepsen (03:19):
Yeah, BPI is the leading authority on compostable
products and packaging.
We're a member based nonprofit association, and we
represent stakeholders acrossthe entire value chain.
So not just the productsproducers, but going back
to the raw materials, sothe biopolymers and paper
companies, the packagingconverters, the brands and
(03:40):
retailers and restaurantswho use those products and
packages, the municipalities,and even the composters.
Part of our effort to bringthat whole value chain together
is our mission to push andadvocate for a societal shift
to the circular bioeconomy.
so our core areas of activityare on policy, standards,
research, and science basedcertification, which is what
(04:02):
we're most known for becausethat's where you start to
see the words compostableand the BPI certification
mark on increasingly moreand more consumer facing
products and packaging.
and, the reason, that we bringall these groups together,
and I think that BPI hasstarted to grow a little bit
more, is this focus on thisintersection between the
(04:22):
food waste problem and thepackaging problem, right?
food is the number onematerial in our landfills.
And the ability to divertthat food to composting is
highly dependent on reducingcontamination, such as
through the redesign of nonreusable, non recyclable
food contact packaging.
Cory Connors (04:40):
I didn't know that about food waste.
I knew I've heard the statthat average American produces
about 1 pound of food wasteper day per person, which is
a massive and I don't know ifthat's still accurate or not.
But, It sounds like anincredible volume of waste.
Rhodes Yepsen (04:57):
Yeah, it's billions and billions of
dollars of lost potential,in the U. S. around food.
there still are peoplewho are food hungry, food
insecure in the United States.
and then we have all thisfood loss along the production
and supply chain, going downto our households as well.
So there's thismassive economic issue.
(05:17):
There's a climate change issue.
There's a societalissue of hunger.
and then when we think aboutthat food, when it gets
into the landfills, it'sgenerating methane, which
is an incredibly potentgreenhouse gas and our soils.
Our agricultural soilsare losing organic content
and organic matter.
They're becoming lessproductive with, the
regenerative agriculturemovement, talking about.
All these things that wecould do very easily, low tech
(05:40):
solutions to restoring ournation's soils to make them more
productive, have the food bemore nutrient dense and nutrient
rich, and compost alongsideno or low till agriculture
and cover crops are these.
critical pieces.
and again, I think that'swhat excites me so much
about the compost movementis, that it's not just one
(06:00):
particular thing, right?
It has these ties out toall these other issues, that
we can work on together.
Cory Connors (06:06):
Well said.
So you're, the BPI, the,your institute is focusing
more than just on packaging.
You're focusing on food waste,being composted and developing
programs in cities andmunicipalities to compost food.
is that what I'm hearing?
Rhodes Yepsen (06:22):
Yeah, you're hearing that that
these items, it's not aproduct based solution.
It's a systems basedsolution, right?
And so when we think aboutsimilar to, I think, other
topics that you've, coveredon your podcast, right?
sometimes it's a packaginginnovation that's needed.
And sometimes there arethese other factors, right?
Related to the successof recycling or reuse
(06:43):
and refill systems.
And so there's this massiveinfrastructure needed.
And we need to makesure that things align.
And so as a certifier anda policy maker, a policy
advocator, we're able to piecethese things together and
set up some guide rails andbest practices, and really
advocate for more widespreadcomposting because without
widespread composting forthat food problem, there is
(07:04):
no ability for compostableproducts and packaging.
to be collected and composted.
Really, they are a subsetof the compost, industry.
Cory Connors (07:13):
Yeah, that's a great point.
It's, like you said, iffood waste is the number
one, material in thelandfill, then that's the
thing we need to focus on.
And then packaging isan, and also, it seems
to be an ancillary.
Part of that, but it'sstill a huge part.
if you've ever beento a facility that's
handing out Packagingthat isn't compostable.
(07:36):
It can be very frustrating to bea part of that But there's some
big laws coming up that I wantedto talk about some bombshells
Really in the industry that arechanging the way things will be
packaged because of Legality.
I know, California SB54is, basically saying
(07:57):
right now that compostablepackaging is not allowed.
And I know that you'rein, you and your institute
are working hard to changethat or to get that fixed.
Can you speak to that and tellthe audience what's going on?
Rhodes Yepsen (08:11):
Sure.
Yeah, I'd say, Californiahas a lot of large policies,
around composting and packagingthat are well intentioned,
and also very aggressive.
they have the potentialto positively, to
potentially rapidly reshape.
the state and move ittowards zero waste.
So I think it's importantto know that, these are well
intentioned laws, and theyhave a massive potential
(08:33):
to move us forward towards,these changes that we all
I think want to see, right?
With widespread access torobust reuse, recycling and
composting systems that work inpractice, not just in theory.
I think the problem isthat these laws tend
to be, highly complex.
have timelines that don'tline up, and that makes
(08:56):
them fairly problematic.
so under SB 54, one of thethings that it's trying to
do, this is a law intendedto require a reduction
in the amount of plasticproduced, and then make sure
that the remaining packagingAll of it will have to be
reusable, recyclable, orcompostable in practice and
at scale in a short order.
(09:18):
It also provides a fundingmechanism to help support
those systems, right?
Known as extendedproducer responsibility.
So again, in these coreelements, you'd be thinking,
yeah, this is great.
I'm so glad that this isCalifornia is doing this,
but it's a super complex,Law and is having a lot of
challenges getting implementedand specific to composability.
(09:38):
within this law, itreferences back actually
a pre existing law.
That also has problems.
So for compostable packagingin SB54, it says, you, among
these other requirements, youhave to meet the definition
of compostable that Californiaset under a law, Bill AB 1201.
AB 1201 passed aboutfive years ago.
(09:59):
we were engaged on it.
And most of what was inthere was really positive.
It actually mirrored alot of criteria in BPI's
certification program.
For instance, saying thatin addition to meeting
the ASTM standards forcompostability, you really
should have them thirdparty certified by somebody.
It doesn't have to be byBPI, but by any of the
certifiers in the world.
You should label the product.
(10:20):
It should be associatedwith materials composters
accept, meaning We're nottalking about sneakers.
We're not talking aboute commerce packaging.
We're really talking aboutthings that, again, help
facilitate diversion offood from the landfill.
These are things BPI has donefor over a decade in California.
Acknowledge those,put them into its law.
A prohibition on PFAS.
we're all nodding along atthis, but then they throw in a
(10:41):
ringer in this law that says,the compostable packaging must
also be an approved input.
for compost that's soldfor organic agriculture.
Now the reason they put this inplace was, compost markets are
not super robust in California.
One of the more robust marketsis for agriculture, right?
a lot of food is grown inCalifornia, a lot of wine
(11:02):
and vineyards, and that'sa good market for compost.
And they really like itto be organic approved.
And so they put thisrequirement in there saying
you, to, to encouragea change at the federal
level, at the USDA level.
the problem again is thata super narrow time frame
and it's focused on thisvery niche aspect, of a NOP
(11:23):
compost market rather thancompost markets more broadly.
And now the timeframe is running out.
And Compostable Packaging isset to be banned in 10 months
in the state of California.
All Compostable Packaging.
You will not be able touse the word Compostable
or a certification mark.
Everything else that wasgood in that law gets erased.
which is crazy when you thinkabout Simple things like a
(11:46):
food scrap collection bag, astaple for composting programs.
If you want people toparticipate and you don't
want microplastics in yourcompost, you allow them to
use a food scrap bag, justlike you allow people to put
their trash in a plastic bag.
but then, yeah, looking at SB54,how on earth are we going to
meet this requirement that saysall packaging, this major shift,
has to be redesigned for Reuse,recycling, and compostability.
(12:08):
If you take a third ofthe pathways away, and
say, actually, none ofit can be compostable.
You have to recycle yourway out of it for every
single application, right?
Lightweight, flexible foodpackaging, you have to figure
out a way to make that work.
No compostable alternative.
Cory Connors (12:22):
It's frustrating for all of us, and I can
hear that in your voice thatwe're all trying to work
really hard over here inthe world of packaging and
sustainable packaging more,more particularly, and there
isn't that understanding atthe government level of what
we, what needs to happen tomake their goals, a reality,
it seems like, so rather thanwork with us and work with you
(12:46):
and your team, they, it seemslike they've chosen just to take
a hard stance and say, well,you're not ready yet, so sorry.
Rhodes Yepsen (12:53):
Yeah, and I think, one of the things that
it seems like there's justnot a enough understanding
for is that in these types ofnegotiations, these societal
changes, everybody has tocome to the table, everybody
has to be willing to makesome compromises, And you
have to take the time tounderstand what the other
sectors challenges are, right?
(13:13):
What the time frames arethat are realistic, the
costs, things like that.
And I think that this exampleof this law and this impending
deadline, is a great exampleof not taking sufficient
understanding and care.
Of really what it's taken so farto grow the composable products
industry to the small industry.
It is today and howsetting these deadlines to
(13:34):
basically, interrupt allof that progress, right?
It's sending these marketsignals to companies saying,
this is not somethingyou should invest in.
it's not a stable market.
And it's going to haveirreparable damage, right?
So beyond the cost of companiesneeding to update their
packaging and products, whichwill take months or years,
to get that out of the supplychain, millions of dollars
(13:54):
per company, in some cases,to update the molds for their
cutlery, to change thingsto meet this knee jerk law,
in California, it's goingto cause this horrible issue
of how do you regain, howdo you regain decades of
momentum to get to this state?
Cory Connors (14:09):
Yeah, really good point.
They, I don't think theyunderstand that they're causing
a lot of, Problems here forthe future of compostables
and specifically compostablepackaging because that is
Very much the sentimentin the industry is whoa.
Take a break from that rightnow because it's not accepted
yet it seems like a cart beforethe horse situation where
(14:31):
preemptive bands like thiscan cause a lot of damage,
especially when there's amazingproducts like NotPla and things
that are totally, compostable,even, biodegradable in the sea.
this is this kind ofseaweed coating that Notpla
worked on is incredible.
And they have all kinds ofsort of certifications globally
(14:52):
that show that it's totallyplastic free and Goes right
back into the environment.
So that's, in a goodway for a change, right?
I spoke to, it sounds likethere's some potential
good news coming though.
I spoke to one of your boardmembers, from Amy's kitchen,
and he was talking about howthere's a potential new law
coming up that will make thingsbetter for composable packaging.
(15:16):
Can you speak tothat a little bit?
Rhodes Yepsen (15:17):
Yeah, I think, what Renault was talking
about is this, what are thepathways to fix these issues?
And so we are looking at allof the potential pathways.
some are a regulatory, fix.
so the law, that law AB 1201has so long as progress is
being made at the USDA level.
We have a pending, applicationfor that five year extension
and have not gotten it yet.
(15:39):
one of the things is lookingat regulatory pressure.
so we've been talking withCalRecycle, talking to the
governor's office, right?
Showing that you havethe mechanism without a
law, to fix this problem.
and, provide sufficienttime to resolve this
at the federal level.
But then the other pathwayis legislative, right?
And looking at billsthat could come in and
fix this requirement.
(16:01):
Preserving the most importantaspects of the compostable
labeling law, but removingthis NOP requirement.
And so we've been working reallyhard to, with legislators to
explain this issue to them,and trying to get bill language
that would remove this NationalOrganic Program requirement,
and highlighting the needfor compostable packaging
(16:21):
to remain a viable label.
legal pathway in California.
the unfortunate news iswe don't have a bill yet.
so we've made progresstowards getting, that language
introduced, but haven't.
And I think, there are avariety of reasons for that.
And I think that's one of thereasons I'm so happy to be on
the podcast with you today.
I think that unfortunately withall of the world's problems,
(16:42):
and the problems of packaging.
Compostability sometimes,plays second fiddle.
And I don't think a lot ofpeople are aware of this
deadline and how bad it is.
we've started to raise the alarmbell with companies, across
the sector, even if they're,not directly involved with BPI.
So talking to the new materialinnovators and the big
packaging companies saying,Hey, if you are working on
(17:03):
compostable packaging, atthis moment, you should speak
up to California and ask forthis five year extension.
Talk to legislators about abill that could remove this NOP
language because otherwise thatpathway is gone for you, right?
It's not just bad forthe existing compostable
food service companiesand bag providers.
It's bad for you.
The entire packaging industry,because almost everybody has
(17:25):
something if, in the worksaround composed stability,
as they're trying to figureout how they're going to
meet these SB 54 goals.
Cory Connors (17:32):
Exactly.
And these lead timesfor innovation take.
Years, many times as, especiallywith larger companies, as a
packaging consultant for thelast 23 years, I can tell
you these projects take very,significant, money and time
and resources and, for astate, and I think the issue
(17:54):
here is that California isso large, my thought is we
need to all work togetherto make things better, more
innovative, more, available,and, it seems like we, we should
start with food, compostingand make that more available.
I, I would think that thefood scraps are very valuable.
(18:16):
to the organic,waste, composters.
so why aren't governments,municipalities all requiring
that to be, available curbside?
where I live, it's notavailable, and I live
in a very, blue state.
Oregon is, very well known for,their environmental prowess.
But, where I live, it'snot available, but a few
(18:37):
blocks down one way it is.
So why isn't itavailable everywhere?
Rhodes Yepsen (18:43):
Yeah, it's a great question.
And I think it depends onhow deep you want to go
on this one, Corey, right?
I think that when youthink about the broader
economics of waste in ourcountry, landfilling 10
is still inexpensive, anda profitable enterprise.
(19:03):
And I think that this hashad impacts on how, programs
for recycling, and compostinghave rolled out in terms of.
The access to the program,but also the success and
viability of those programs,there are certain things that
I think, occasionally need alittle bit more governmental
oversight and regulation.
And I think this is one, andyeah, I think that in terms of
(19:24):
composting, we know, that itwill take billions of dollars
of investment to be able toprovide the same level of access
to curbside composting as it is.
Americans enjoy forrecycling and trash today,
and that's largely againdue to the dynamics and
the, of the waste industry.
And so I think, extendedproducer responsibility
(19:45):
will help with that.
a portion of that.
there will be, other targetsthat communities are setting
that are helping drivemore and more access to
curbside composting programs.
And, luckily they, Okay.
Can look like a varietyof different things.
So similar to recycling, inrural areas, you can have,
in addition to curbsideprograms, some municipalities
are setting up drop offprograms for composting.
(20:06):
Great.
And then there are a varietyof subscription services.
leave it to good oldentrepreneurs to, try to
fill in that gap, there areprobably around a hundred,
different cities that offersubscription services.
so businesses that are.
having consumers who reallydon't want to put that food
in the trash can, and arewilling to, and can afford to
(20:28):
spend a little extra money.
They can, sign up forone of these subscription
services and, typicallyyou get a bucket, right?
maybe lined with a compostablebag and a list of what
you can put in there andthey'll come and pick
it up for you for a fee.
And a lot of them willdeliver back finished compost
to you so you can see thequality of the material that
you helped contribute to.
but yeah, it's a reallyfrustrating thing.
(20:49):
I think that, I reallyhope that we're able to
figure out how we can makecomposting more widespread.
And I hope that becausefood is so problematic,
that organizations likeReFed, who really lead the
way on, on the food wastetopic, continue to grow and
raise more awareness about.
the potentials, ofavoiding food waste,
Cory Connors (21:07):
what's that, called refed you
Rhodes Yepsen (21:09):
said, yeah, refed, they're an environmental
nonprofit group, that, hasdone a lot of work supporting
better data collectionaround the extent of food
waste in the United States.
And those are, they havegreat stats, and data
reports, that come outfairly regularly tracking.
whether that number is goingup or down and the economic
(21:30):
impact of it, they also do areally nice job of separating
out where that wastage ishappening along the value chain.
So how much of itis in the household?
How much of it ison the farm field?
How much is in distribution?
and then also separatingout inedible food from
edible food, right?
Because again, like in thepackaging world, right?
Where sometimes there'sthis perceived tension
(21:50):
between reusables andrecycling and composting.
And those of us in the knowthat's not competition.
They're very, aligned,supportive goals.
And I think similarly withinthe food waste movement,
sometimes you'll hear,oh, well, we shouldn't
be composting the food.
We should just be savingthe edible food, and
saying composting is, notgood, because we shouldn't
have wasted that food.
And it's saying, well, no, it'san and, it's not an or, right?
(22:11):
We.
We absolutely need to getedible food to, to people.
but there is always goingto be food waste, right?
There's always going tobe packaging that needs to
be recycled and composted.
but yes, absolutely, let'sreduce how much of it,
let's reuse what we can.
so yeah, Refed is a greatorganization to check out.
Cory Connors (22:27):
I hadn't heard of, and I agree it's, and it's
not, or in these situationswe need to do both and many,
there's, there has to be lotsof outlets to, our waste.
can you, give us acouple of those companies
that will come to.
Your house, I know, I'm familiarwith Ridwell and Recyclops
and TerraCycle that do, pickup, those hard to recycle
(22:49):
items, but I haven't heardof, at home compost, pickup.
Rhodes Yepsen (22:53):
Yeah, and I would say one of them, called Compost
Now actually has a map on theirwebsite where they help promote,
other, programs in other cities.
So Compost Now is a service,that, yeah, will collect
your food scraps, compostit for you, bring you back
some finished compost, andhas some cool apps to help
you really understand theimpact of your participation.
(23:14):
And then yet on theirwebsite to help promote this.
composting movement.
They have a list of all theseother curbside, subscription
services in other cities.
so compost crew is another one,in the D. C. Baltimore area.
Veteran compost, black earth,compost, compost crusader.
Cory Connors (23:31):
Wow.
Lots of them.
Rhodes Yepsen (23:33):
Yeah.
Moonshot Compost,Mission Compost.
they're, Rust Belt Riders.
There are, yeah, like I said,probably close to a hundred
cities that don't have curbsideprograms offered by their
city, but, have access tothese subscription programs.
Cory Connors (23:46):
There's so much we can do as consumers, just
as people to make the worlda better place and you don't
have to wait for the governmentto catch up and be ready.
I think I love hearing aboutthese private companies that
are working hard to make theenvironment, better and to make
it our impact as people less.
of an impact, which is so greatand what a good feeling to
(24:10):
drop your compost items in abucket and then a month later
get, some dirt that you cangrow new vegetables in or what
a wonderful, circular system.
Rhodes Yeps (24:20):
Yeah, it really is.
And I think, so the lastelement, so you've got curbside,
curbside programs and drop offprograms offered by your city.
You've got thesesubscription services.
And then, people who are luckyenough to have a backyard
to compost in can alsocompost in their backyard.
Now, there's a slightdifference there when it
comes to packaging, backyardcomposting systems, Tend to
be lower temperature, meaningthat, not all items will break
(24:42):
down in that home compost bin.
It needs a differentcertification, and you
really have to be, adedicated home composter.
You can't, homelandfill your material.
You have to give itsome attention, to that
compost pile if you wantitems to, to break down.
But that's another pathway.
So when you think about that,you're, it's again, yeah,
I think it's a positive.
News, right?
That hopefully more and morepeople across the U. S. Have
(25:04):
some mechanism to have access.
And if they don't, I would saythat's a perfect opportunity
to go to your city councilor your town council and
say, Hey, have you seen thesestatistics from refed about all
the food in our waste streamabout the impact of methane?
Can you help us witha pilot program?
And a lot of cities, are willingto So we do work on pilot
programs again, partneringwith a local company to help
(25:26):
collect material for, for sixmonths or a year and kind of
assess, what are the true costsof this, what would it take
to build and site a compostingfacility in that area?
Cory Connors (25:35):
That's great.
Thank you so much, Rhodes.
This has been amazing.
how do people get intouch with you and BPI?
Rhodes Yepsen (25:41):
Yeah, we're pretty active on LinkedIn, so
I would say for sure followBPI on LinkedIn to keep up to
date on what we're working on.
we have an annual summit,it's going to be held in
September in Atlanta, September16th through 18th this year.
and then, yeah, we have,various, contact forms on the
website if you need to getin touch with a real person.
Cory Connors (26:02):
Great.
Thanks again, sir.
Really appreciate this.
Rhodes Yepsen (26:05):
Yeah, thank you.
I'm so glad we did it.
Welcome to Sustainable Packaging
(00:01):
with Cory Connors.
Today's guest is a longtimefriend of mine and somebody
I've been hoping to have onthe show for many years, Mr.
Rhodes Yepsen, the ExecutiveDirector of the Biodegradable
Products Institute.
How are you, sir?
Rhodes Yep (00:16):
Doing great, thanks.
Thanks for having me, Corey.
Cory Connors (00:18):
Yeah, thanks for being on.
Like, like we were talkingabout before we started,
this is something thatwe've been trying to do for
years, and it's great thatschedule's finally worked out.
And I think what you'redoing at that, at BPI is
incredible work and reallyimportant work for the future
of sustainable packaging.
And it's, it's somethingthat a lot of people don't
know very much about.
(00:38):
So I'm excited tospread the word.
but before we go intoall that stuff, can
you tell us about you?
what got you to thispoint in your career?
Rhodes Yepsen (00:48):
Yeah, thanks.
I went to Oberlin College,which is a liberal arts college
in Ohio, and had dreams ofbeing an environmental writer.
after graduation, I traveledaround and did different jobs
working at a national park inHawaii, working at a nonprofit
in Washington, D. C. Workingat a literary magazine in San
(01:08):
Francisco, and then fortuitouslylanded a job at Biocycle
magazine, close to where I grewup, as a writer and editor.
Biocycle is a compostingmagazine, and that's where
I really fell in love withcompost as this, perfect
sweet spot of all thesedifferent environmental
topics and societal topicsthat I was interested in.
(01:28):
Food waste andlocal food systems.
climate change, plastics,and sustainable packaging.
And, at BioCycle, I was ableto dive into all of these
subjects, research and writeabout them, and really hone
my writing skills for anindustry style publication.
and that led me down the pathof working with a variety
of compostable packagingcompanies, and the role
(01:50):
that packaging can play.
In broader composting effortsand brought me to BPI.
Cory Connors (01:56):
Well, that sounds like the perfect
background for your job.
And, it's like you couldn'thave written a better script.
love it.
Well done.
And it sounds like you'vebeen very focused on the
environment your wholelife and your whole career.
Is that something thatyour, your family was
very excited about?
Or just grew up like,like me, in a place where
they cared about that?
Rhodes Yepsen (02:15):
yeah, exactly.
So I grew up inrural Pennsylvania.
My parents met working atRodale Press, which BioCycle is
actually an offshoot of, and ifyou don't know Rodale, Rodale
was the sort of founder of theorganic ag movement in the US.
So they had early publicationsabout organic agriculture.
Organic gardeningand farming magazine.
(02:36):
They have Rodale Institutewhere they did research and
continue to do research aroundorganic farming practices.
And my dad continued to workwhile I grew up at Rodale or
and various publications isan author and illustrator.
writing books aboutheirloom vegetables
and apples and berries.
and so yeah, I grew up with thisconservation mindset and wanting
(02:58):
to have a positive impact and bea communicator to bridge these
gaps on a variety of topics,that, relate back to healthy
people and healthy planet.
Cory Connors (03:08):
Now you're making me hungry talking about
all these delicious foods.
I love it.
let's talk about BPI.
What is the BiodegradableProducts Institute?
What do you do there?
What's the focus?
Rhodes Yepsen (03:19):
Yeah, BPI is the leading authority on compostable
products and packaging.
We're a member based nonprofit association, and we
represent stakeholders acrossthe entire value chain.
So not just the productsproducers, but going back
to the raw materials, sothe biopolymers and paper
companies, the packagingconverters, the brands and
(03:40):
retailers and restaurantswho use those products and
packages, the municipalities,and even the composters.
Part of our effort to bringthat whole value chain together
is our mission to push andadvocate for a societal shift
to the circular bioeconomy.
so our core areas of activityare on policy, standards,
research, and science basedcertification, which is what
(04:02):
we're most known for becausethat's where you start to
see the words compostableand the BPI certification
mark on increasingly moreand more consumer facing
products and packaging.
and, the reason, that we bringall these groups together,
and I think that BPI hasstarted to grow a little bit
more, is this focus on thisintersection between the
(04:22):
food waste problem and thepackaging problem, right?
food is the number onematerial in our landfills.
And the ability to divertthat food to composting is
highly dependent on reducingcontamination, such as
through the redesign of nonreusable, non recyclable
food contact packaging.
Cory Connors (04:40):
I didn't know that about food waste.
I knew I've heard the statthat average American produces
about 1 pound of food wasteper day per person, which is
a massive and I don't know ifthat's still accurate or not.
But, It sounds like anincredible volume of waste.
Rhodes Yepsen (04:57):
Yeah, it's billions and billions of
dollars of lost potential,in the U. S. around food.
there still are peoplewho are food hungry, food
insecure in the United States.
and then we have all thisfood loss along the production
and supply chain, going downto our households as well.
So there's thismassive economic issue.
(05:17):
There's a climate change issue.
There's a societalissue of hunger.
and then when we think aboutthat food, when it gets
into the landfills, it'sgenerating methane, which
is an incredibly potentgreenhouse gas and our soils.
Our agricultural soilsare losing organic content
and organic matter.
They're becoming lessproductive with, the
regenerative agriculturemovement, talking about.
All these things that wecould do very easily, low tech
(05:40):
solutions to restoring ournation's soils to make them more
productive, have the food bemore nutrient dense and nutrient
rich, and compost alongsideno or low till agriculture
and cover crops are these.
critical pieces.
and again, I think that'swhat excites me so much
about the compost movementis, that it's not just one
(06:00):
particular thing, right?
It has these ties out toall these other issues, that
we can work on together.
Cory Connors (06:06):
Well said.
So you're, the BPI, the,your institute is focusing
more than just on packaging.
You're focusing on food waste,being composted and developing
programs in cities andmunicipalities to compost food.
is that what I'm hearing?
Rhodes Yepsen (06:22):
Yeah, you're hearing that that
these items, it's not aproduct based solution.
It's a systems basedsolution, right?
And so when we think aboutsimilar to, I think, other
topics that you've, coveredon your podcast, right?
sometimes it's a packaginginnovation that's needed.
And sometimes there arethese other factors, right?
Related to the successof recycling or reuse
(06:43):
and refill systems.
And so there's this massiveinfrastructure needed.
And we need to makesure that things align.
And so as a certifier anda policy maker, a policy
advocator, we're able to piecethese things together and
set up some guide rails andbest practices, and really
advocate for more widespreadcomposting because without
widespread composting forthat food problem, there is
(07:04):
no ability for compostableproducts and packaging.
to be collected and composted.
Really, they are a subsetof the compost, industry.
Cory Connors (07:13):
Yeah, that's a great point.
It's, like you said, iffood waste is the number
one, material in thelandfill, then that's the
thing we need to focus on.
And then packaging isan, and also, it seems
to be an ancillary.
Part of that, but it'sstill a huge part.
if you've ever beento a facility that's
handing out Packagingthat isn't compostable.
(07:36):
It can be very frustrating to bea part of that But there's some
big laws coming up that I wantedto talk about some bombshells
Really in the industry that arechanging the way things will be
packaged because of Legality.
I know, California SB54is, basically saying
(07:57):
right now that compostablepackaging is not allowed.
And I know that you'rein, you and your institute
are working hard to changethat or to get that fixed.
Can you speak to that and tellthe audience what's going on?
Rhodes Yepsen (08:11):
Sure.
Yeah, I'd say, Californiahas a lot of large policies,
around composting and packagingthat are well intentioned,
and also very aggressive.
they have the potentialto positively, to
potentially rapidly reshape.
the state and move ittowards zero waste.
So I think it's importantto know that, these are well
intentioned laws, and theyhave a massive potential
(08:33):
to move us forward towards,these changes that we all
I think want to see, right?
With widespread access torobust reuse, recycling and
composting systems that work inpractice, not just in theory.
I think the problem isthat these laws tend
to be, highly complex.
have timelines that don'tline up, and that makes
(08:56):
them fairly problematic.
so under SB 54, one of thethings that it's trying to
do, this is a law intendedto require a reduction
in the amount of plasticproduced, and then make sure
that the remaining packagingAll of it will have to be
reusable, recyclable, orcompostable in practice and
at scale in a short order.
(09:18):
It also provides a fundingmechanism to help support
those systems, right?
Known as extendedproducer responsibility.
So again, in these coreelements, you'd be thinking,
yeah, this is great.
I'm so glad that this isCalifornia is doing this,
but it's a super complex,Law and is having a lot of
challenges getting implementedand specific to composability.
(09:38):
within this law, itreferences back actually
a pre existing law.
That also has problems.
So for compostable packagingin SB54, it says, you, among
these other requirements, youhave to meet the definition
of compostable that Californiaset under a law, Bill AB 1201.
AB 1201 passed aboutfive years ago.
(09:59):
we were engaged on it.
And most of what was inthere was really positive.
It actually mirrored alot of criteria in BPI's
certification program.
For instance, saying thatin addition to meeting
the ASTM standards forcompostability, you really
should have them thirdparty certified by somebody.
It doesn't have to be byBPI, but by any of the
certifiers in the world.
You should label the product.
(10:20):
It should be associatedwith materials composters
accept, meaning We're nottalking about sneakers.
We're not talking aboute commerce packaging.
We're really talking aboutthings that, again, help
facilitate diversion offood from the landfill.
These are things BPI has donefor over a decade in California.
Acknowledge those,put them into its law.
A prohibition on PFAS.
we're all nodding along atthis, but then they throw in a
(10:41):
ringer in this law that says,the compostable packaging must
also be an approved input.
for compost that's soldfor organic agriculture.
Now the reason they put this inplace was, compost markets are
not super robust in California.
One of the more robust marketsis for agriculture, right?
a lot of food is grown inCalifornia, a lot of wine
(11:02):
and vineyards, and that'sa good market for compost.
And they really like itto be organic approved.
And so they put thisrequirement in there saying
you, to, to encouragea change at the federal
level, at the USDA level.
the problem again is thata super narrow time frame
and it's focused on thisvery niche aspect, of a NOP
(11:23):
compost market rather thancompost markets more broadly.
And now the timeframe is running out.
And Compostable Packaging isset to be banned in 10 months
in the state of California.
All Compostable Packaging.
You will not be able touse the word Compostable
or a certification mark.
Everything else that wasgood in that law gets erased.
which is crazy when you thinkabout Simple things like a
(11:46):
food scrap collection bag, astaple for composting programs.
If you want people toparticipate and you don't
want microplastics in yourcompost, you allow them to
use a food scrap bag, justlike you allow people to put
their trash in a plastic bag.
but then, yeah, looking at SB54,how on earth are we going to
meet this requirement that saysall packaging, this major shift,
has to be redesigned for Reuse,recycling, and compostability.
(12:08):
If you take a third ofthe pathways away, and
say, actually, none ofit can be compostable.
You have to recycle yourway out of it for every
single application, right?
Lightweight, flexible foodpackaging, you have to figure
out a way to make that work.
No compostable alternative.
Cory Connors (12:22):
It's frustrating for all of us, and I can
hear that in your voice thatwe're all trying to work
really hard over here inthe world of packaging and
sustainable packaging more,more particularly, and there
isn't that understanding atthe government level of what
we, what needs to happen tomake their goals, a reality,
it seems like, so rather thanwork with us and work with you
(12:46):
and your team, they, it seemslike they've chosen just to take
a hard stance and say, well,you're not ready yet, so sorry.
Rhodes Yepsen (12:53):
Yeah, and I think, one of the things that
it seems like there's justnot a enough understanding
for is that in these types ofnegotiations, these societal
changes, everybody has tocome to the table, everybody
has to be willing to makesome compromises, And you
have to take the time tounderstand what the other
sectors challenges are, right?
(13:13):
What the time frames arethat are realistic, the
costs, things like that.
And I think that this exampleof this law and this impending
deadline, is a great exampleof not taking sufficient
understanding and care.
Of really what it's taken so farto grow the composable products
industry to the small industry.
It is today and howsetting these deadlines to
(13:34):
basically, interrupt allof that progress, right?
It's sending these marketsignals to companies saying,
this is not somethingyou should invest in.
it's not a stable market.
And it's going to haveirreparable damage, right?
So beyond the cost of companiesneeding to update their
packaging and products, whichwill take months or years,
to get that out of the supplychain, millions of dollars
(13:54):
per company, in some cases,to update the molds for their
cutlery, to change thingsto meet this knee jerk law,
in California, it's goingto cause this horrible issue
of how do you regain, howdo you regain decades of
momentum to get to this state?
Cory Connors (14:09):
Yeah, really good point.
They, I don't think theyunderstand that they're causing
a lot of, Problems here forthe future of compostables
and specifically compostablepackaging because that is
Very much the sentimentin the industry is whoa.
Take a break from that rightnow because it's not accepted
yet it seems like a cart beforethe horse situation where
(14:31):
preemptive bands like thiscan cause a lot of damage,
especially when there's amazingproducts like NotPla and things
that are totally, compostable,even, biodegradable in the sea.
this is this kind ofseaweed coating that Notpla
worked on is incredible.
And they have all kinds ofsort of certifications globally
(14:52):
that show that it's totallyplastic free and Goes right
back into the environment.
So that's, in a goodway for a change, right?
I spoke to, it sounds likethere's some potential
good news coming though.
I spoke to one of your boardmembers, from Amy's kitchen,
and he was talking about howthere's a potential new law
coming up that will make thingsbetter for composable packaging.
(15:16):
Can you speak tothat a little bit?
Rhodes Yepsen (15:17):
Yeah, I think, what Renault was talking
about is this, what are thepathways to fix these issues?
And so we are looking at allof the potential pathways.
some are a regulatory, fix.
so the law, that law AB 1201has so long as progress is
being made at the USDA level.
We have a pending, applicationfor that five year extension
and have not gotten it yet.
(15:39):
one of the things is lookingat regulatory pressure.
so we've been talking withCalRecycle, talking to the
governor's office, right?
Showing that you havethe mechanism without a
law, to fix this problem.
and, provide sufficienttime to resolve this
at the federal level.
But then the other pathwayis legislative, right?
And looking at billsthat could come in and
fix this requirement.
(16:01):
Preserving the most importantaspects of the compostable
labeling law, but removingthis NOP requirement.
And so we've been working reallyhard to, with legislators to
explain this issue to them,and trying to get bill language
that would remove this NationalOrganic Program requirement,
and highlighting the needfor compostable packaging
(16:21):
to remain a viable label.
legal pathway in California.
the unfortunate news iswe don't have a bill yet.
so we've made progresstowards getting, that language
introduced, but haven't.
And I think, there are avariety of reasons for that.
And I think that's one of thereasons I'm so happy to be on
the podcast with you today.
I think that unfortunately withall of the world's problems,
(16:42):
and the problems of packaging.
Compostability sometimes,plays second fiddle.
And I don't think a lot ofpeople are aware of this
deadline and how bad it is.
we've started to raise the alarmbell with companies, across
the sector, even if they're,not directly involved with BPI.
So talking to the new materialinnovators and the big
packaging companies saying,Hey, if you are working on
(17:03):
compostable packaging, atthis moment, you should speak
up to California and ask forthis five year extension.
Talk to legislators about abill that could remove this NOP
language because otherwise thatpathway is gone for you, right?
It's not just bad forthe existing compostable
food service companiesand bag providers.
It's bad for you.
The entire packaging industry,because almost everybody has
(17:25):
something if, in the worksaround composed stability,
as they're trying to figureout how they're going to
meet these SB 54 goals.
Cory Connors (17:32):
Exactly.
And these lead timesfor innovation take.
Years, many times as, especiallywith larger companies, as a
packaging consultant for thelast 23 years, I can tell
you these projects take very,significant, money and time
and resources and, for astate, and I think the issue
(17:54):
here is that California isso large, my thought is we
need to all work togetherto make things better, more
innovative, more, available,and, it seems like we, we should
start with food, compostingand make that more available.
I, I would think that thefood scraps are very valuable.
(18:16):
to the organic,waste, composters.
so why aren't governments,municipalities all requiring
that to be, available curbside?
where I live, it's notavailable, and I live
in a very, blue state.
Oregon is, very well known for,their environmental prowess.
But, where I live, it'snot available, but a few
(18:37):
blocks down one way it is.
So why isn't itavailable everywhere?
Rhodes Yepsen (18:43):
Yeah, it's a great question.
And I think it depends onhow deep you want to go
on this one, Corey, right?
I think that when youthink about the broader
economics of waste in ourcountry, landfilling 10
is still inexpensive, anda profitable enterprise.
(19:03):
And I think that this hashad impacts on how, programs
for recycling, and compostinghave rolled out in terms of.
The access to the program,but also the success and
viability of those programs,there are certain things that
I think, occasionally need alittle bit more governmental
oversight and regulation.
And I think this is one, andyeah, I think that in terms of
(19:24):
composting, we know, that itwill take billions of dollars
of investment to be able toprovide the same level of access
to curbside composting as it is.
Americans enjoy forrecycling and trash today,
and that's largely againdue to the dynamics and
the, of the waste industry.
And so I think, extendedproducer responsibility
(19:45):
will help with that.
a portion of that.
there will be, other targetsthat communities are setting
that are helping drivemore and more access to
curbside composting programs.
And, luckily they, Okay.
Can look like a varietyof different things.
So similar to recycling, inrural areas, you can have,
in addition to curbsideprograms, some municipalities
are setting up drop offprograms for composting.
(20:06):
Great.
And then there are a varietyof subscription services.
leave it to good oldentrepreneurs to, try to
fill in that gap, there areprobably around a hundred,
different cities that offersubscription services.
so businesses that are.
having consumers who reallydon't want to put that food
in the trash can, and arewilling to, and can afford to
(20:28):
spend a little extra money.
They can, sign up forone of these subscription
services and, typicallyyou get a bucket, right?
maybe lined with a compostablebag and a list of what
you can put in there andthey'll come and pick
it up for you for a fee.
And a lot of them willdeliver back finished compost
to you so you can see thequality of the material that
you helped contribute to.
but yeah, it's a reallyfrustrating thing.
(20:49):
I think that, I reallyhope that we're able to
figure out how we can makecomposting more widespread.
And I hope that becausefood is so problematic,
that organizations likeReFed, who really lead the
way on, on the food wastetopic, continue to grow and
raise more awareness about.
the potentials, ofavoiding food waste,
Cory Connors (21:07):
what's that, called refed you
Rhodes Yepsen (21:09):
said, yeah, refed, they're an environmental
nonprofit group, that, hasdone a lot of work supporting
better data collectionaround the extent of food
waste in the United States.
And those are, they havegreat stats, and data
reports, that come outfairly regularly tracking.
whether that number is goingup or down and the economic
(21:30):
impact of it, they also do areally nice job of separating
out where that wastage ishappening along the value chain.
So how much of itis in the household?
How much of it ison the farm field?
How much is in distribution?
and then also separatingout inedible food from
edible food, right?
Because again, like in thepackaging world, right?
Where sometimes there'sthis perceived tension
(21:50):
between reusables andrecycling and composting.
And those of us in the knowthat's not competition.
They're very, aligned,supportive goals.
And I think similarly withinthe food waste movement,
sometimes you'll hear,oh, well, we shouldn't
be composting the food.
We should just be savingthe edible food, and
saying composting is, notgood, because we shouldn't
have wasted that food.
And it's saying, well, no, it'san and, it's not an or, right?
(22:11):
We.
We absolutely need to getedible food to, to people.
but there is always goingto be food waste, right?
There's always going tobe packaging that needs to
be recycled and composted.
but yes, absolutely, let'sreduce how much of it,
let's reuse what we can.
so yeah, Refed is a greatorganization to check out.
Cory Connors (22:27):
I hadn't heard of, and I agree it's, and it's
not, or in these situationswe need to do both and many,
there's, there has to be lotsof outlets to, our waste.
can you, give us acouple of those companies
that will come to.
Your house, I know, I'm familiarwith Ridwell and Recyclops
and TerraCycle that do, pickup, those hard to recycle
(22:49):
items, but I haven't heardof, at home compost, pickup.
Rhodes Yepsen (22:53):
Yeah, and I would say one of them, called Compost
Now actually has a map on theirwebsite where they help promote,
other, programs in other cities.
So Compost Now is a service,that, yeah, will collect
your food scraps, compostit for you, bring you back
some finished compost, andhas some cool apps to help
you really understand theimpact of your participation.
(23:14):
And then yet on theirwebsite to help promote this.
composting movement.
They have a list of all theseother curbside, subscription
services in other cities.
so compost crew is another one,in the D. C. Baltimore area.
Veteran compost, black earth,compost, compost crusader.
Cory Connors (23:31):
Wow.
Lots of them.
Rhodes Yepsen (23:33):
Yeah.
Moonshot Compost,Mission Compost.
they're, Rust Belt Riders.
There are, yeah, like I said,probably close to a hundred
cities that don't have curbsideprograms offered by their
city, but, have access tothese subscription programs.
Cory Connors (23:46):
There's so much we can do as consumers, just
as people to make the worlda better place and you don't
have to wait for the governmentto catch up and be ready.
I think I love hearing aboutthese private companies that
are working hard to make theenvironment, better and to make
it our impact as people less.
of an impact, which is so greatand what a good feeling to
(24:10):
drop your compost items in abucket and then a month later
get, some dirt that you cangrow new vegetables in or what
a wonderful, circular system.
Rhodes Yeps (24:20):
Yeah, it really is.
And I think, so the lastelement, so you've got curbside,
curbside programs and drop offprograms offered by your city.
You've got thesesubscription services.
And then, people who are luckyenough to have a backyard
to compost in can alsocompost in their backyard.
Now, there's a slightdifference there when it
comes to packaging, backyardcomposting systems, Tend to
be lower temperature, meaningthat, not all items will break
(24:42):
down in that home compost bin.
It needs a differentcertification, and you
really have to be, adedicated home composter.
You can't, homelandfill your material.
You have to give itsome attention, to that
compost pile if you wantitems to, to break down.
But that's another pathway.
So when you think about that,you're, it's again, yeah,
I think it's a positive.
News, right?
That hopefully more and morepeople across the U. S. Have
(25:04):
some mechanism to have access.
And if they don't, I would saythat's a perfect opportunity
to go to your city councilor your town council and
say, Hey, have you seen thesestatistics from refed about all
the food in our waste streamabout the impact of methane?
Can you help us witha pilot program?
And a lot of cities, are willingto So we do work on pilot
programs again, partneringwith a local company to help
(25:26):
collect material for, for sixmonths or a year and kind of
assess, what are the true costsof this, what would it take
to build and site a compostingfacility in that area?
Cory Connors (25:35):
That's great.
Thank you so much, Rhodes.
This has been amazing.
how do people get intouch with you and BPI?
Rhodes Yepsen (25:41):
Yeah, we're pretty active on LinkedIn, so
I would say for sure followBPI on LinkedIn to keep up to
date on what we're working on.
we have an annual summit,it's going to be held in
September in Atlanta, September16th through 18th this year.
and then, yeah, we have,various, contact forms on the
website if you need to getin touch with a real person.
Cory Connors (26:02):
Great.
Thanks again, sir.
Really appreciate this.
Rhodes Yepsen (26:05):
Yeah, thank you.
I'm so glad we did it.
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.