April 27, 2025 • 30 mins
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Over 36,000 people are part of this association of waste pickers in Kenya and it's a truly impressive story about how they are working to make a circular economy while being healthy and safe and having a living wage.
So much needs to be done to make this fair!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Cory Connors (00:00):
Welcome to Sustainable Packaging
(00:01):
with Cory Connors.
Today's guest is my friend,Mr. John Chweya , the president
of the Kenya National WastePickers Welfare Association.
How are you, sir?
John Chweya (00:12):
Hey.
Hello, co. Thank youfor hosting me today.
It's a real pleasureto be here and to talk
to you about our work.
Cory Connors (00:20):
It's great to see you again.
And, we met in Japan at theUnited Nations Environmental
Program where we both spokeabout, our perceptions of,
of what's going on in theworld of sustainability.
And, I was just really excitedby what you had to say about the
community there that you lead,and, all the good work that
(00:41):
you're doing to support those,amazing people that are working
so hard to help, recycle.
And, so really impressiveand thanks again for coming
on, John, but I was hopingto, before we start with all
that, let's talk about yourbackground and what got you to
this position of leadership.
John Chweya (00:57):
thank you.
Thank you again, Cory So,my background is that I've
been a waste picker nowfor more than 21 years.
I started doing the job likeway back when I was turning 13.
And, just like other wastepickers that I know, very few
of them or normally like bornin families of waste picking
most, most of us like end up.
(01:20):
Coming into this job, mostly ata very younger age because of
the financial situations, backin the house, very much pushing
us towards having to, go outthere and find something to eat
or, to find some sort of incomegenerating activity to also
support with feeding the family.
So at that particular age,I also found myself in this
(01:41):
situation and I had to goout and, start, one of the
easiest way that I could startalready getting some small
money or just accessing foodwas to, pick, scrap metals
and recyclable, Products thatwere all over the surrounding.
And that is how, like mylife started as a waste
(02:02):
picker through the years.
Also, like the work isgenerally, meed with
a lot of stigma and alot of discrimination.
And these are thingsthat I did have to face
at a very young age.
And, de I definitelydid not in any way, like
it and I could see how.
Psych how deep and how,bad it was getting into
(02:24):
other colleagues of minethat I used to work with.
And, at a bit older age, Idecided that this is something
that someone needed to changeand that someone was not
going to be the people thatare part of the problem.
So it was going tobe like one of us.
And I mostly took, Theinitiative to start negotiating
(02:45):
with the municipal governmentofficials and start talking
with our colleagues on how bestwe can maybe come together and
start representing ourselvesour rights and our welfare as
people who are already like.
doing a job that is very much,appreciated by communities, but
not the people who are doing it.
So that is that basicallyis what drove me, to start
(03:10):
organizing this becausethat are at a very young age
back in my city, in Kenya,small Lake City called Kiso.
Cory Connors (03:17):
And are you still there at the same
area of Kenya or have youmoved to a different city?
Yeah.
no, I'm totally stillin the same area.
Great.
Well, the work you've done isimpressive, and the numbers
that you spoke about, thequantity of people that are
currently living in landfillsand working in landfills
absolutely blew me away andjust, was a very big surprise.
(03:41):
And I'd like to talk alittle bit about that.
There's, I think you mentionedover 30,000 people that are
waste pickers in Kenya alone.
is that about right or inyour organization at least?
Yes.
John Chweya (03:53):
So fast forward, Four years back, I was elected
as the, national President ofthe Kenya National Speakers
Welfare Association, associationthat has a membership
of more than 36,000 now.
And, these, people andcolleagues that already saw
the job I was doing withadvocating and, trying to make
sure that mostly policy makersrecognize their rights and,
(04:16):
the integral role that we havebeen playing historically.
when, when I was elected tothis position now, I had to
not, not only represent thepeople from my municipality.
Now I represented likewaste Pickers across,
the boundaries, all withinthe boundaries of Kenya.
So I had to like, exploreto, because the biggest
(04:37):
membership of the associationis from Nairobi, where.
The biggest landfill in EastAfrica is that, is Dandora
has more than 10,000, members,meaning that more than 10,000
waste pickers working withinthat particular landfill.
And, like generally now,I have worked almost in.
(05:00):
Through all, almostall of the dam sites or
the landfills in Kenya.
And one thing that isvery certain is that the
challenges that we face aswaste pickers are the same.
it could be maybe justdifferent, by context,
by little context, butgenerally the challenges
(05:21):
that we face are the same.
And these are some of thethings that made it easier,
for someone like me to alsodo the organizing work.
It was not only, um.
a job that I did myself, ofcourse, the National Association
has, very many leaders fromdifferent municipalities that
have also been, very muchhelping with the organizing work
(05:42):
and also the representation andthe, advocacy with, the national
and the local government.
So it's been like about, Likeabout 20 years of trying to
change the same thing and tryingto make not just, the policy
makers, but also the communitieswhere we work and live in
(06:02):
that, we are, human beingsand we have been historically
doing an integral job.
And that, now more thanever, our rights and our
voices have to be heard.
And we have to also, findjustice not just for the job
we are doing now, but also forthe historic depth of the job
(06:22):
that we've done over the years.
Like for example, myself, I'vedone it for more than 20 years.
Yet at the very time thatI lived at the Landfill in
Kiso, I had like colleaguesthere that had been.
Doing the job for thepast 20 years, some of
whom are still in the job.
So it means that literallythere are people that have
(06:44):
more than 40 years, experienceworking in waste these
are real time knowledges.
These are people that like,carry with them, all the
knowledge that you can,think of, around waste.
So, yeah.
Impressive.
That is
Cory Connors (06:59):
just
John Chweya (07:00):
a bit of
Cory Connors (07:01):
backlog.
Yeah, you're right.
It's, you are integral to theprocess and the people that
you support and work withare integral to the, just the
entire circularity system is.
It's such a valuable thing thatyou and your team are doing
there and all the members,What kinds of materials are
(07:21):
you finding that are valuablein, what kinds of things are
the waste pickers focusing on?
John Chweya (07:27):
So, just to give you a bit of history,
when I started workingas a waste picker, then
mostly it was metal.
But over the years, especiallylike around in the early 2000,
we started like also gettinga lot more value for plastic.
Okay.
Initially, there wasnot a lot of plastic.
But, then in the earlytwo thousands there
started being like, a lotmore plastic, bottles.
(07:51):
Coming also, and also likebeing, a lot more in, spaces
where we worked, just also for.
For the record that theassociation I represent three
categories of waste pickers.
The, those that collectfrom the streets, those
collecting in households,mostly low income areas,
and those that particularlyjust work at the landfills.
(08:12):
And, you'll notice that theones that are collecting
from the streets and the onescollecting at the landfills,
particularly just Reclaim,just, recyclable materials,
those that have value, right?
the ones that are pickingfrom households mostly take
everything then sort fromAll the mixed waste and
recover just the the value.
(08:36):
Recyclables and then theorganic, which is mostly not
value or does not have value.
And also the non-recyclableplastic, the single use
plastics are also, justtaken to the landfill.
So representing these threecategories means that mostly,
we collect as waste pickers.
We mostly just collect, oh.
(08:57):
the waste that has value thatis mostly cartons, plastic,
PET and HTP, cans, metals.
yeah.
Cory Connors (09:05):
And.
I think people would beinterested to know how
the workers, get paid.
they're working for theday they're, 'cause I,
the only thing I canassociate this with, from
my history is I used to pickstrawberries when I was a kid.
And that I, where I live in theUS it's we grow strawberries
and you could pick strawberrieswhen I was 10, you, or 11.
(09:27):
And, they would pay us by the.
crate, or the flat iswhat they would call it.
is it something that they'reweighing the amount of
material that is beingpicked or you're bringing a
bag, or how does that work?
I.
John Chweya (09:41):
so generally it's about the weight that you bring
to mostly the aggregators.
And, Cory would tellyou that this is the
most interesting part.
The most outrageous to mebecause, mostly you'll find that
a bigger percentage of, the workthat we do mostly like, ends
up benefiting the aggregatorsand the recyclers because.
(10:02):
Very many instances, theaggregators are the people
that are deciding the price towhich they buy our recyclables.
And that is a big problem.
And that is also one of thethings that I've been very
much championing to change.
That there's no way, andthere's I've, that is the
first ever scenario whereI've seen a customer deciding
the price to which theywant to buy, your product.
(10:24):
You walk into a shop and likewalking into a supermarket and
deciding the price to which youwant to buy like a bottle of
milk or like a bar of soap.
It's, it never happens.
But to waste Pickers, ithappens because, I remember
In very many instances, you'dwalk, or you'd walk with a very
big sack of, because the peoplecollecting at the streets have
(10:46):
to have like sacks on their backwhere they keep on walk and keep
feeling like any recyclable.
They come across and mostof the time you keep on
working knowing that.
The more you collect, thebetter, prices you'll get.
And then when you get tothe aggregators, let's
say in the evening, youfind that a kg of PET that
(11:10):
yesterday was 15 shillings.
Today is five shillings.
And there's totally no noticeabout that, and there's
totally no apology or anything.
It just tell you that,that is a price today.
Take it or leave it.
But because again, you'vebeen walking with 200
kgs of plastic on yourback and you maybe you're
(11:31):
tired, you've not, chancesyou've not eating anything.
And also chances that.
Getting to the nextaggregator is like two
or three more kilometers.
You end up like taking whatyou are, what you're offered.
And that is one ofthe biggest problems.
So that is a problem that,I've been trying to solve
with the aspect of collectivegaming, where each and every
(11:54):
municipality can convergeall the, all the recyclables
they collect and directlybegin with, recyclers.
Cory Connors (12:03):
Yeah, you're exactly right.
it's tragic.
It's, it's, definitelynot, sustainable for
the people doing it.
I think you all deserve,a living wage and there
needs to be some oversightof that, some kind of, help
making some kind of a minimumprice, that they must.
(12:23):
Give you for yourefforts, right.
And I applaud you foryour efforts and your
work in this area.
And hopefully this podcastwill, go crazy viral and
get all over the place andpeople will hear about it,
and hear about your plight.
And, somebody somewherelistening will be able to help.
Make this better for thepeople involved is my hope.
(12:46):
I really, I hope so too.
According,
John Chweya (12:48):
yeah.
Cory Connors (12:49):
Yeah.
It seems, like you said, itseems like they have too much
power and influence on whatthey are paying for the material
and, that, they certainly needto be paying, something more
appropriate to the workers.
So.
Let's talk a little bitabout simple ways that
people listening can help.
(13:10):
you mentioned that the peoplein the community really
could appreciate, personalprotective equipment like
safety vests and, gloves.
Is there any anything elsethat they, that people could,
either donate or supplyat significant discounts?
John Chweya (13:28):
Yes.
Yes.
Corey, you also noticed that,I don't know if maybe you do
get a picture of what, Theenvironment to which some of
us work in looks And, one ofthe biggest challenge that
we've also encountered as, westPick leaders is that, there's
always the problem of health.
I remember at the very firstyears of, my, tenure as the
(13:50):
president of the NationalAssociation, I would get like
hundreds of messages a day of.
Like some colleagues thathad succumbed in different
dump sites or someone thatwas, experiencing a medical
condition that was urgent.
And this is all because thatwe have, we are working in,
in environments that arevery toxic because like you
(14:13):
can imagine all the organicand all the, all the plastic
waste that is not recyclable,constantly burning and you.
People are constantlylike inhaling, the, the
plastic that is burning.
And we know that plasticis also, made with,
multiple polymers thatare harmful to the health.
So health is like basicallyone of the biggest
(14:35):
challenges that we have, as.
waste pickers yet,we still build like
re resilience to that.
We've had, I've personally,done a lot of collections
like fundraisers for PPEs, andwe've prioritized, like our
colleagues that are work areworking in the landfills, but
that is still not sustainable.
(14:56):
Like for instance, right now.
I'm trying to build onthe resilience on and the
financial capabilitiesof waste pickers that are
working in, in, in Kisumu.
Kisumu is one of the citiesin Kenya and we are doing
a fundraiser to buy a truckbecause like we, we've been very
much thinking of What are someof the solutions that can, both
(15:20):
get our colleagues that liveand work in the landfills out of
the landfill, but also increase,the, the income of those, that
are working in other places andalso increase like collection
and clientele and, Most oflike organizations and most of
governments do not prioritizesustainable solutions because
(15:42):
some fundings, are normallythere, but do not very much.
Look into the problem andsee that whatever resource
is put into a particularproblem should be something
that is sustainable andsomething that is going to like
particularly solve the problem.
So I, I normally say thatthere's a lot of projects that.
Do not come tosolve the problem.
(16:05):
there's a lot of, organizationsthat, are doing a lot of work
with a lot of resources ontalking about the problem,
but not actually solving them.
Okay.
So right now, I'm,running, fundraiser.
To get a truck.
Right.
And I believe that throughthe systems that we've already
created as, waste pickerswithin the municipal groups,
(16:28):
like when we get one truck,we know for sure that this
builds on, the resilience,it builds on the income, it
also builds, it widens the,clientele network and getting
one truck, it means that we willnot be, going back again to.
To fundraise.
It means that the truck thatwe get, because there's a
(16:49):
lot of income right now thatis being lost on transport.
When we get one truck,it means that we can save
and get, another truck.
That means that building in ontothis resilience, then we can,
and The financial independence,it means that within our own
organizations, we can very muchinvest in trucks and build our,
(17:11):
build on our finances and likeliterally be able be in our,
be in a position that we canafford our own PPEs, we can
afford our own gloves, our ownminerals, and our own gum boots
and that's, that is one verysustainable solution that,
I've been very much venturing.
Cory Connors (17:31):
We will put a link to that effort.
I assume it's like a GoFundMeor is it, is there a Yes.
Okay.
Yes, it's a GoFundMe.
So I'll ask you for thatlink and we'll put it in the
notes of the show so peoplelistening can donate to that.
That's the kind of thingpeople like to support, because
like you said, once you getone truck, you'll be able to
earn more money, then you'llbe able to buy another truck
(17:52):
and the, and then before youknow it, you'll have 10 trucks
and, you'll have better,safer living quarters and
you'll have more PPE and, itjust, it's a snowball effect
of self sustainability,which I think is wonderful.
So I think you'vegot it down right.
This is gonna work.
John Chweya (18:10):
Thank you.
Cory Connors (18:11):
Yeah.
Just, just for everyonelistening, how much does
a truck, like the one thatyou're looking for, cost,
what's, can you translatethat to US dollars?
Is that possible?
or,
John Chweya (18:23):
the truck, like the fundraiser.
It mostly costs aroundlike 30,000 US dollars.
Okay.
that is a very good trackthat, that also also comes
with, some maintenanceas we start operating it.
And that is a very good track.
That is a very good track.
Also considering the terrainbecause the terrains are
(18:45):
especially going to thelandfills that very bad
terrains the road are weatherroads that most of the time,
when it rains, most truckscannot access the dump site.
Cory Connors (18:57):
Yeah.
John Chweya (18:58):
So that is a very good track that can very much
withstand the, the terrains,
Cory Connors (19:04):
on weather.
That's great.
I understand that you probablyneed a four wheel drive vehicle
with some pretty beefy tiresand yeah, you need something
that'll handle some tough roads.
So that makes a lot of sense.
I think we'll get some attentionto your fundraiser through this.
John Chweya (19:20):
thank you.
Thank you.
Good.
Cory Connors (19:21):
Yeah, so I wanted to talk a little bit
about packaging, 'cause thisis a packaging show and, I
wanted to get your opinionon what kinds of things
can people like me in theindustry do to make packaging.
so it's more valuableto waste pickers.
So it's more circular.
John Chweya (19:40):
yeah, that this is also very interesting, topic,
Corey, and I'm happy that Igot to meet you and I got to
learn on what you're working on,especially on packaging, because
if you notice what we work,we also collect and what we
recover value from is packaging.
And, I think that is veryimportant also to industries
(20:02):
and companies that, are usingpackaging that whatever is.
Remaining at the landfillsthat we work in, whatever is
in our communities, whateveris in the streets as pollution,
mostly is normally packaging.
And one thing that I've als,I've always been championing
around even the plastic treatythat I've been very much,
(20:25):
aggressively attending, is thatpackaging has to be something
that can be taken back.
Because from what Iunderstand is that.
when communities, when people,when individuals are buying
anything that is packaged,they, the cost of the package
is also attached to whatever thecommunity that they're buying.
(20:47):
Right?
And this particular cap,package has to be something
that can be recycled.
And at our level, you'llnotice that waste pickers
mostly only pay quarters.
What has value?
Right.
there's also a bit of challengethat we've had with the design
(21:09):
bit of packaging where there'sa lot of, a lot of packages,
mostly plastic, that arebranded as recyclable while.
No one is taking them backfor recycling, so that
is also like a problem.
Yeah.
But generally what I'm tryingto say is that all packaging is.
(21:30):
Is bought because packageis also normally in the pri
in the price of packagingis also included in the,
in, in the commodity, right?
Whatever commodity anyoneis buying, the price
is also always there.
And that price should berecovered by the people who
actually, recovering the packagefrom whatever place it is.
Because if you look at, thespaces where we work in, if
(21:53):
you look at take the landfill.
The landfill horse wastefrom all over corners.
Like most of the people, mostof the communities, most of
individuals do not very muchknow where, the packaging they
normally discard ends up in.
We know, good point.
We know what kind of packagesthat come to spaces where
(22:15):
we work in and all of thesethings are, have, are value.
Because someone paidfor it to have it.
And Korea would tell you thateven, today, if you walk into a
supermarket and maybe you wentto buy apples, and the apples
are wrapped in, in some plasticcase, it means that, the prices
(22:37):
of the apples also the plasticcase cannot in any way be free.
Right.
So you're not only buying theapples, you're also buying the
package, the wrapping that is,that is used to package it.
So, exactly this hasto add value from me.
From my point.
I normally see that thishas to add value, and this
value should be reflectedto the people that are
(22:59):
actually recovering it, right?
Because if I can recover,it means that I should
recover the value of.
Whatever, it was priced atin the beginning, right?
Cory Connors (23:10):
That's absolutely, exactly the point here.
I think you're right.
This is what we needto understand as a
circular economy.
where I live, we have a depositsystem, a deposit return
scheme where we add 10 cents incost when you buy a bottle of
(23:31):
soda or, Any water, anything.
and then people are wastepickers, will collect those and
turn them back in for money.
And do you think a system likethat would work where you live?
Is that or is that not feasible?
John Chweya (23:48):
I think so far that is a system
that is not feasible.
very much.
it's not very muchfeasible because, also
thinking about, uh.
the cost of investing insuch an infrastructure
against what is alreadylike the priorities here.
It's to, it's totally adifferent context, but thinking
about it, it's, it's somethingthat, could, one, if we well,
(24:13):
allocate the resources thatare there to the people that
are actually already doingthe job, that are not being
in any way resourced orin any way supported then.
If the system is something thatcan be co-produced by the people
who have historically beendoing the job and has the, have
the knowledge about it, yeah.
(24:34):
Then I think it could work.
Because Corey, I would tellyou that one of the biggest
disconnect between systems andhow they function has always
been that the systems arenormally meant to, replace,
the human element that I'vealways been doing the job
without consulting or withoutintegrating the, the historic
(24:58):
knowledge and Right, withoutlike bringing on board the
knowledge that they've.
Always been havingaround the job.
So
Cory Connors (25:06):
yeah,
John Chweya (25:06):
that's, I believe is one of, one of
the things that I've been avery big disconnect between,
realizing impactful systems.
Cory Connors (25:15):
I think and that's why it's so impressive, the
work that you're doing becauseyou're getting to the table
where these discussions arehappening, like at the UN and at
these different organizations.
do you have any plans to speakat any other events coming up
soon where people can see you?
John Chweya (25:31):
yeah, I think, there's, there's
the INC 5.2 that is setfor Geneva and, I believe
that I'll be going there.
Good.
I, we are hoping thatis the last INC that,
we will be attending.
So, Generally we, we are justhoping that every policy that
is going to be made aroundsomething that very deeply
(25:54):
affects our realities is goingto also make sure to integrate
our voices and our realities,because, there is that historic
knowledge that we have again,and also that historic depth
of, the years, that we've been.
Part of a solutionwithout any support.
So that is something that forus, is very crucial, that all
(26:18):
the policies, are just, andthat they leave no one behind.
Because we also know thatmost policies are normally
influenced by industriesand by, organizations that
tend to benefit withoutnecessarily also right.
Integrating, the people,the communities, the
grassroots, initiatives thathave been part of, solving
(26:41):
the problem, from time.
So, yeah, I will say personally,I'm just hoping that when my
voice is there, then there'll bechange and, will totally realize
the change at a very grassroots
Cory Connors (26:55):
level.
Yeah, well, you havemy total support.
I'm here to help you if I can.
Thank you.
Advertise for you orpromote what you're doing.
I'm in to help, think whatyou're talking about is
exactly, what the community andthe packaging world needs to
understand is, these materialsneed to have value and then
(27:15):
we need to help all peopleinvolved have a living wage.
Is there anything else thatyou wanted to talk about, John,
before we, we wrap this up?
John Chweya (27:23):
Yeah, I think one more thing that I would like
to mention is that I've seenlike a lot of, investment by
industries and just like Ialso mentioned that this work,
work that we've been doing,for quite so many years and
I've seen, I've come acrossa lot of like investments by
industries on some of the waysor some of the innovations to.
(27:48):
Try to recover, the messthat they mo they're mostly
responsible and not particularlyinvesting more on, real
empowerment and sustainablesolutions that are very,
rooted to the grassroots level.
Yep.
And, I think my appeal wouldbe that, to the industry
(28:09):
world, like waste speakersare one of the people that.
If properly, a resource can,like if, like right now we are
responsible for about 60 or morethan 61% of, recycling globally.
you can imagine if like withall the profits and all the,
(28:33):
the investment and marginsthat the industries are making
are, channeling towards,Unsustainable projects.
If maybe this support, likefor instance, like right
now I'm very much strugglingalong with my networks to,
to raise one track when weknow that there's a lot of
(28:53):
like, projects that industriesand very big companies are
investing in the tunes ofbillions without In any way
really realizing true impact,true empowerment yet, right.
there are very, sustainablesolutions like for this
case that we are very muchstruggling to, to achieve.
(29:14):
Right?
So I'm literallyjust appealing to.
To industry and to policymakers, and to anyone listening
to me in a position to makea difference that, we have
solutions and the solutionsare sustainable and the
solutions have not been verymuch given, like an opportunity
to show how sustainable.
Cory Connors (29:36):
Thank you, John.
That's exactly right.
And well said.
We need to really see whereour money is going, as in the
community and investing insustainability in the future.
So I think you'll go get alot of support from this and,
we'll encourage everyone.
So thank you again, sir.
Really appreciate your wisdom.
John Chweya (29:55):
Thank you.
Thank you very much, Corey.
It's a real pleasure tobe here and talk to you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Welcome to Sustainable Packaging
(00:01):
with Cory Connors.
Today's guest is my friend,Mr. John Chweya , the president
of the Kenya National WastePickers Welfare Association.
How are you, sir?
John Chweya (00:12):
Hey.
Hello, co. Thank youfor hosting me today.
It's a real pleasureto be here and to talk
to you about our work.
Cory Connors (00:20):
It's great to see you again.
And, we met in Japan at theUnited Nations Environmental
Program where we both spokeabout, our perceptions of,
of what's going on in theworld of sustainability.
And, I was just really excitedby what you had to say about the
community there that you lead,and, all the good work that
(00:41):
you're doing to support those,amazing people that are working
so hard to help, recycle.
And, so really impressiveand thanks again for coming
on, John, but I was hopingto, before we start with all
that, let's talk about yourbackground and what got you to
this position of leadership.
John Chweya (00:57):
thank you.
Thank you again, Cory So,my background is that I've
been a waste picker nowfor more than 21 years.
I started doing the job likeway back when I was turning 13.
And, just like other wastepickers that I know, very few
of them or normally like bornin families of waste picking
most, most of us like end up.
(01:20):
Coming into this job, mostly ata very younger age because of
the financial situations, backin the house, very much pushing
us towards having to, go outthere and find something to eat
or, to find some sort of incomegenerating activity to also
support with feeding the family.
So at that particular age,I also found myself in this
(01:41):
situation and I had to goout and, start, one of the
easiest way that I could startalready getting some small
money or just accessing foodwas to, pick, scrap metals
and recyclable, Products thatwere all over the surrounding.
And that is how, like mylife started as a waste
(02:02):
picker through the years.
Also, like the work isgenerally, meed with
a lot of stigma and alot of discrimination.
And these are thingsthat I did have to face
at a very young age.
And, de I definitelydid not in any way, like
it and I could see how.
Psych how deep and how,bad it was getting into
(02:24):
other colleagues of minethat I used to work with.
And, at a bit older age, Idecided that this is something
that someone needed to changeand that someone was not
going to be the people thatare part of the problem.
So it was going tobe like one of us.
And I mostly took, Theinitiative to start negotiating
(02:45):
with the municipal governmentofficials and start talking
with our colleagues on how bestwe can maybe come together and
start representing ourselvesour rights and our welfare as
people who are already like.
doing a job that is very much,appreciated by communities, but
not the people who are doing it.
So that is that basicallyis what drove me, to start
(03:10):
organizing this becausethat are at a very young age
back in my city, in Kenya,small Lake City called Kiso.
Cory Connors (03:17):
And are you still there at the same
area of Kenya or have youmoved to a different city?
Yeah.
no, I'm totally stillin the same area.
Great.
Well, the work you've done isimpressive, and the numbers
that you spoke about, thequantity of people that are
currently living in landfillsand working in landfills
absolutely blew me away andjust, was a very big surprise.
(03:41):
And I'd like to talk alittle bit about that.
There's, I think you mentionedover 30,000 people that are
waste pickers in Kenya alone.
is that about right or inyour organization at least?
Yes.
John Chweya (03:53):
So fast forward, Four years back, I was elected
as the, national President ofthe Kenya National Speakers
Welfare Association, associationthat has a membership
of more than 36,000 now.
And, these, people andcolleagues that already saw
the job I was doing withadvocating and, trying to make
sure that mostly policy makersrecognize their rights and,
(04:16):
the integral role that we havebeen playing historically.
when, when I was elected tothis position now, I had to
not, not only represent thepeople from my municipality.
Now I represented likewaste Pickers across,
the boundaries, all withinthe boundaries of Kenya.
So I had to like, exploreto, because the biggest
(04:37):
membership of the associationis from Nairobi, where.
The biggest landfill in EastAfrica is that, is Dandora
has more than 10,000, members,meaning that more than 10,000
waste pickers working withinthat particular landfill.
And, like generally now,I have worked almost in.
(05:00):
Through all, almostall of the dam sites or
the landfills in Kenya.
And one thing that isvery certain is that the
challenges that we face aswaste pickers are the same.
it could be maybe justdifferent, by context,
by little context, butgenerally the challenges
(05:21):
that we face are the same.
And these are some of thethings that made it easier,
for someone like me to alsodo the organizing work.
It was not only, um.
a job that I did myself, ofcourse, the National Association
has, very many leaders fromdifferent municipalities that
have also been, very muchhelping with the organizing work
(05:42):
and also the representation andthe, advocacy with, the national
and the local government.
So it's been like about, Likeabout 20 years of trying to
change the same thing and tryingto make not just, the policy
makers, but also the communitieswhere we work and live in
(06:02):
that, we are, human beingsand we have been historically
doing an integral job.
And that, now more thanever, our rights and our
voices have to be heard.
And we have to also, findjustice not just for the job
we are doing now, but also forthe historic depth of the job
(06:22):
that we've done over the years.
Like for example, myself, I'vedone it for more than 20 years.
Yet at the very time thatI lived at the Landfill in
Kiso, I had like colleaguesthere that had been.
Doing the job for thepast 20 years, some of
whom are still in the job.
So it means that literallythere are people that have
(06:44):
more than 40 years, experienceworking in waste these
are real time knowledges.
These are people that like,carry with them, all the
knowledge that you can,think of, around waste.
So, yeah.
Impressive.
That is
Cory Connors (06:59):
just
John Chweya (07:00):
a bit of
Cory Connors (07:01):
backlog.
Yeah, you're right.
It's, you are integral to theprocess and the people that
you support and work withare integral to the, just the
entire circularity system is.
It's such a valuable thing thatyou and your team are doing
there and all the members,What kinds of materials are
(07:21):
you finding that are valuablein, what kinds of things are
the waste pickers focusing on?
John Chweya (07:27):
So, just to give you a bit of history,
when I started workingas a waste picker, then
mostly it was metal.
But over the years, especiallylike around in the early 2000,
we started like also gettinga lot more value for plastic.
Okay.
Initially, there wasnot a lot of plastic.
But, then in the earlytwo thousands there
started being like, a lotmore plastic, bottles.
(07:51):
Coming also, and also likebeing, a lot more in, spaces
where we worked, just also for.
For the record that theassociation I represent three
categories of waste pickers.
The, those that collectfrom the streets, those
collecting in households,mostly low income areas,
and those that particularlyjust work at the landfills.
(08:12):
And, you'll notice that theones that are collecting
from the streets and the onescollecting at the landfills,
particularly just Reclaim,just, recyclable materials,
those that have value, right?
the ones that are pickingfrom households mostly take
everything then sort fromAll the mixed waste and
recover just the the value.
(08:36):
Recyclables and then theorganic, which is mostly not
value or does not have value.
And also the non-recyclableplastic, the single use
plastics are also, justtaken to the landfill.
So representing these threecategories means that mostly,
we collect as waste pickers.
We mostly just collect, oh.
(08:57):
the waste that has value thatis mostly cartons, plastic,
PET and HTP, cans, metals.
yeah.
Cory Connors (09:05):
And.
I think people would beinterested to know how
the workers, get paid.
they're working for theday they're, 'cause I,
the only thing I canassociate this with, from
my history is I used to pickstrawberries when I was a kid.
And that I, where I live in theUS it's we grow strawberries
and you could pick strawberrieswhen I was 10, you, or 11.
(09:27):
And, they would pay us by the.
crate, or the flat iswhat they would call it.
is it something that they'reweighing the amount of
material that is beingpicked or you're bringing a
bag, or how does that work?
I.
John Chweya (09:41):
so generally it's about the weight that you bring
to mostly the aggregators.
And, Cory would tellyou that this is the
most interesting part.
The most outrageous to mebecause, mostly you'll find that
a bigger percentage of, the workthat we do mostly like, ends
up benefiting the aggregatorsand the recyclers because.
(10:02):
Very many instances, theaggregators are the people
that are deciding the price towhich they buy our recyclables.
And that is a big problem.
And that is also one of thethings that I've been very
much championing to change.
That there's no way, andthere's I've, that is the
first ever scenario whereI've seen a customer deciding
the price to which theywant to buy, your product.
(10:24):
You walk into a shop and likewalking into a supermarket and
deciding the price to which youwant to buy like a bottle of
milk or like a bar of soap.
It's, it never happens.
But to waste Pickers, ithappens because, I remember
In very many instances, you'dwalk, or you'd walk with a very
big sack of, because the peoplecollecting at the streets have
(10:46):
to have like sacks on their backwhere they keep on walk and keep
feeling like any recyclable.
They come across and mostof the time you keep on
working knowing that.
The more you collect, thebetter, prices you'll get.
And then when you get tothe aggregators, let's
say in the evening, youfind that a kg of PET that
(11:10):
yesterday was 15 shillings.
Today is five shillings.
And there's totally no noticeabout that, and there's
totally no apology or anything.
It just tell you that,that is a price today.
Take it or leave it.
But because again, you'vebeen walking with 200
kgs of plastic on yourback and you maybe you're
(11:31):
tired, you've not, chancesyou've not eating anything.
And also chances that.
Getting to the nextaggregator is like two
or three more kilometers.
You end up like taking whatyou are, what you're offered.
And that is one ofthe biggest problems.
So that is a problem that,I've been trying to solve
with the aspect of collectivegaming, where each and every
(11:54):
municipality can convergeall the, all the recyclables
they collect and directlybegin with, recyclers.
Cory Connors (12:03):
Yeah, you're exactly right.
it's tragic.
It's, it's, definitelynot, sustainable for
the people doing it.
I think you all deserve,a living wage and there
needs to be some oversightof that, some kind of, help
making some kind of a minimumprice, that they must.
(12:23):
Give you for yourefforts, right.
And I applaud you foryour efforts and your
work in this area.
And hopefully this podcastwill, go crazy viral and
get all over the place andpeople will hear about it,
and hear about your plight.
And, somebody somewherelistening will be able to help.
Make this better for thepeople involved is my hope.
(12:46):
I really, I hope so too.
According,
John Chweya (12:48):
yeah.
Cory Connors (12:49):
Yeah.
It seems, like you said, itseems like they have too much
power and influence on whatthey are paying for the material
and, that, they certainly needto be paying, something more
appropriate to the workers.
So.
Let's talk a little bitabout simple ways that
people listening can help.
(13:10):
you mentioned that the peoplein the community really
could appreciate, personalprotective equipment like
safety vests and, gloves.
Is there any anything elsethat they, that people could,
either donate or supplyat significant discounts?
John Chweya (13:28):
Yes.
Yes.
Corey, you also noticed that,I don't know if maybe you do
get a picture of what, Theenvironment to which some of
us work in looks And, one ofthe biggest challenge that
we've also encountered as, westPick leaders is that, there's
always the problem of health.
I remember at the very firstyears of, my, tenure as the
(13:50):
president of the NationalAssociation, I would get like
hundreds of messages a day of.
Like some colleagues thathad succumbed in different
dump sites or someone thatwas, experiencing a medical
condition that was urgent.
And this is all because thatwe have, we are working in,
in environments that arevery toxic because like you
(14:13):
can imagine all the organicand all the, all the plastic
waste that is not recyclable,constantly burning and you.
People are constantlylike inhaling, the, the
plastic that is burning.
And we know that plasticis also, made with,
multiple polymers thatare harmful to the health.
So health is like basicallyone of the biggest
(14:35):
challenges that we have, as.
waste pickers yet,we still build like
re resilience to that.
We've had, I've personally,done a lot of collections
like fundraisers for PPEs, andwe've prioritized, like our
colleagues that are work areworking in the landfills, but
that is still not sustainable.
(14:56):
Like for instance, right now.
I'm trying to build onthe resilience on and the
financial capabilitiesof waste pickers that are
working in, in, in Kisumu.
Kisumu is one of the citiesin Kenya and we are doing
a fundraiser to buy a truckbecause like we, we've been very
much thinking of What are someof the solutions that can, both
(15:20):
get our colleagues that liveand work in the landfills out of
the landfill, but also increase,the, the income of those, that
are working in other places andalso increase like collection
and clientele and, Most oflike organizations and most of
governments do not prioritizesustainable solutions because
(15:42):
some fundings, are normallythere, but do not very much.
Look into the problem andsee that whatever resource
is put into a particularproblem should be something
that is sustainable andsomething that is going to like
particularly solve the problem.
So I, I normally say thatthere's a lot of projects that.
Do not come tosolve the problem.
(16:05):
there's a lot of, organizationsthat, are doing a lot of work
with a lot of resources ontalking about the problem,
but not actually solving them.
Okay.
So right now, I'm,running, fundraiser.
To get a truck.
Right.
And I believe that throughthe systems that we've already
created as, waste pickerswithin the municipal groups,
(16:28):
like when we get one truck,we know for sure that this
builds on, the resilience,it builds on the income, it
also builds, it widens the,clientele network and getting
one truck, it means that we willnot be, going back again to.
To fundraise.
It means that the truck thatwe get, because there's a
(16:49):
lot of income right now thatis being lost on transport.
When we get one truck,it means that we can save
and get, another truck.
That means that building in ontothis resilience, then we can,
and The financial independence,it means that within our own
organizations, we can very muchinvest in trucks and build our,
(17:11):
build on our finances and likeliterally be able be in our,
be in a position that we canafford our own PPEs, we can
afford our own gloves, our ownminerals, and our own gum boots
and that's, that is one verysustainable solution that,
I've been very much venturing.
Cory Connors (17:31):
We will put a link to that effort.
I assume it's like a GoFundMeor is it, is there a Yes.
Okay.
Yes, it's a GoFundMe.
So I'll ask you for thatlink and we'll put it in the
notes of the show so peoplelistening can donate to that.
That's the kind of thingpeople like to support, because
like you said, once you getone truck, you'll be able to
earn more money, then you'llbe able to buy another truck
(17:52):
and the, and then before youknow it, you'll have 10 trucks
and, you'll have better,safer living quarters and
you'll have more PPE and, itjust, it's a snowball effect
of self sustainability,which I think is wonderful.
So I think you'vegot it down right.
This is gonna work.
John Chweya (18:10):
Thank you.
Cory Connors (18:11):
Yeah.
Just, just for everyonelistening, how much does
a truck, like the one thatyou're looking for, cost,
what's, can you translatethat to US dollars?
Is that possible?
or,
John Chweya (18:23):
the truck, like the fundraiser.
It mostly costs aroundlike 30,000 US dollars.
Okay.
that is a very good trackthat, that also also comes
with, some maintenanceas we start operating it.
And that is a very good track.
That is a very good track.
Also considering the terrainbecause the terrains are
(18:45):
especially going to thelandfills that very bad
terrains the road are weatherroads that most of the time,
when it rains, most truckscannot access the dump site.
Cory Connors (18:57):
Yeah.
John Chweya (18:58):
So that is a very good track that can very much
withstand the, the terrains,
Cory Connors (19:04):
on weather.
That's great.
I understand that you probablyneed a four wheel drive vehicle
with some pretty beefy tiresand yeah, you need something
that'll handle some tough roads.
So that makes a lot of sense.
I think we'll get some attentionto your fundraiser through this.
John Chweya (19:20):
thank you.
Thank you.
Good.
Cory Connors (19:21):
Yeah, so I wanted to talk a little bit
about packaging, 'cause thisis a packaging show and, I
wanted to get your opinionon what kinds of things
can people like me in theindustry do to make packaging.
so it's more valuableto waste pickers.
So it's more circular.
John Chweya (19:40):
yeah, that this is also very interesting, topic,
Corey, and I'm happy that Igot to meet you and I got to
learn on what you're working on,especially on packaging, because
if you notice what we work,we also collect and what we
recover value from is packaging.
And, I think that is veryimportant also to industries
(20:02):
and companies that, are usingpackaging that whatever is.
Remaining at the landfillsthat we work in, whatever is
in our communities, whateveris in the streets as pollution,
mostly is normally packaging.
And one thing that I've als,I've always been championing
around even the plastic treatythat I've been very much,
(20:25):
aggressively attending, is thatpackaging has to be something
that can be taken back.
Because from what Iunderstand is that.
when communities, when people,when individuals are buying
anything that is packaged,they, the cost of the package
is also attached to whatever thecommunity that they're buying.
(20:47):
Right?
And this particular cap,package has to be something
that can be recycled.
And at our level, you'llnotice that waste pickers
mostly only pay quarters.
What has value?
Right.
there's also a bit of challengethat we've had with the design
(21:09):
bit of packaging where there'sa lot of, a lot of packages,
mostly plastic, that arebranded as recyclable while.
No one is taking them backfor recycling, so that
is also like a problem.
Yeah.
But generally what I'm tryingto say is that all packaging is.
(21:30):
Is bought because packageis also normally in the pri
in the price of packagingis also included in the,
in, in the commodity, right?
Whatever commodity anyoneis buying, the price
is also always there.
And that price should berecovered by the people who
actually, recovering the packagefrom whatever place it is.
Because if you look at, thespaces where we work in, if
(21:53):
you look at take the landfill.
The landfill horse wastefrom all over corners.
Like most of the people, mostof the communities, most of
individuals do not very muchknow where, the packaging they
normally discard ends up in.
We know, good point.
We know what kind of packagesthat come to spaces where
(22:15):
we work in and all of thesethings are, have, are value.
Because someone paidfor it to have it.
And Korea would tell you thateven, today, if you walk into a
supermarket and maybe you wentto buy apples, and the apples
are wrapped in, in some plasticcase, it means that, the prices
(22:37):
of the apples also the plasticcase cannot in any way be free.
Right.
So you're not only buying theapples, you're also buying the
package, the wrapping that is,that is used to package it.
So, exactly this hasto add value from me.
From my point.
I normally see that thishas to add value, and this
value should be reflectedto the people that are
(22:59):
actually recovering it, right?
Because if I can recover,it means that I should
recover the value of.
Whatever, it was priced atin the beginning, right?
Cory Connors (23:10):
That's absolutely, exactly the point here.
I think you're right.
This is what we needto understand as a
circular economy.
where I live, we have a depositsystem, a deposit return
scheme where we add 10 cents incost when you buy a bottle of
(23:31):
soda or, Any water, anything.
and then people are wastepickers, will collect those and
turn them back in for money.
And do you think a system likethat would work where you live?
Is that or is that not feasible?
John Chweya (23:48):
I think so far that is a system
that is not feasible.
very much.
it's not very muchfeasible because, also
thinking about, uh.
the cost of investing insuch an infrastructure
against what is alreadylike the priorities here.
It's to, it's totally adifferent context, but thinking
about it, it's, it's somethingthat, could, one, if we well,
(24:13):
allocate the resources thatare there to the people that
are actually already doingthe job, that are not being
in any way resourced orin any way supported then.
If the system is something thatcan be co-produced by the people
who have historically beendoing the job and has the, have
the knowledge about it, yeah.
(24:34):
Then I think it could work.
Because Corey, I would tellyou that one of the biggest
disconnect between systems andhow they function has always
been that the systems arenormally meant to, replace,
the human element that I'vealways been doing the job
without consulting or withoutintegrating the, the historic
(24:58):
knowledge and Right, withoutlike bringing on board the
knowledge that they've.
Always been havingaround the job.
So
Cory Connors (25:06):
yeah,
John Chweya (25:06):
that's, I believe is one of, one of
the things that I've been avery big disconnect between,
realizing impactful systems.
Cory Connors (25:15):
I think and that's why it's so impressive, the
work that you're doing becauseyou're getting to the table
where these discussions arehappening, like at the UN and at
these different organizations.
do you have any plans to speakat any other events coming up
soon where people can see you?
John Chweya (25:31):
yeah, I think, there's, there's
the INC 5.2 that is setfor Geneva and, I believe
that I'll be going there.
Good.
I, we are hoping thatis the last INC that,
we will be attending.
So, Generally we, we are justhoping that every policy that
is going to be made aroundsomething that very deeply
(25:54):
affects our realities is goingto also make sure to integrate
our voices and our realities,because, there is that historic
knowledge that we have again,and also that historic depth
of, the years, that we've been.
Part of a solutionwithout any support.
So that is something that forus, is very crucial, that all
(26:18):
the policies, are just, andthat they leave no one behind.
Because we also know thatmost policies are normally
influenced by industriesand by, organizations that
tend to benefit withoutnecessarily also right.
Integrating, the people,the communities, the
grassroots, initiatives thathave been part of, solving
(26:41):
the problem, from time.
So, yeah, I will say personally,I'm just hoping that when my
voice is there, then there'll bechange and, will totally realize
the change at a very grassroots
Cory Connors (26:55):
level.
Yeah, well, you havemy total support.
I'm here to help you if I can.
Thank you.
Advertise for you orpromote what you're doing.
I'm in to help, think whatyou're talking about is
exactly, what the community andthe packaging world needs to
understand is, these materialsneed to have value and then
(27:15):
we need to help all peopleinvolved have a living wage.
Is there anything else thatyou wanted to talk about, John,
before we, we wrap this up?
John Chweya (27:23):
Yeah, I think one more thing that I would like
to mention is that I've seenlike a lot of, investment by
industries and just like Ialso mentioned that this work,
work that we've been doing,for quite so many years and
I've seen, I've come acrossa lot of like investments by
industries on some of the waysor some of the innovations to.
(27:48):
Try to recover, the messthat they mo they're mostly
responsible and not particularlyinvesting more on, real
empowerment and sustainablesolutions that are very,
rooted to the grassroots level.
Yep.
And, I think my appeal wouldbe that, to the industry
(28:09):
world, like waste speakersare one of the people that.
If properly, a resource can,like if, like right now we are
responsible for about 60 or morethan 61% of, recycling globally.
you can imagine if like withall the profits and all the,
(28:33):
the investment and marginsthat the industries are making
are, channeling towards,Unsustainable projects.
If maybe this support, likefor instance, like right
now I'm very much strugglingalong with my networks to,
to raise one track when weknow that there's a lot of
(28:53):
like, projects that industriesand very big companies are
investing in the tunes ofbillions without In any way
really realizing true impact,true empowerment yet, right.
there are very, sustainablesolutions like for this
case that we are very muchstruggling to, to achieve.
(29:14):
Right?
So I'm literallyjust appealing to.
To industry and to policymakers, and to anyone listening
to me in a position to makea difference that, we have
solutions and the solutionsare sustainable and the
solutions have not been verymuch given, like an opportunity
to show how sustainable.
Cory Connors (29:36):
Thank you, John.
That's exactly right.
And well said.
We need to really see whereour money is going, as in the
community and investing insustainability in the future.
So I think you'll go get alot of support from this and,
we'll encourage everyone.
So thank you again, sir.
Really appreciate your wisdom.
John Chweya (29:55):
Thank you.
Thank you very much, Corey.
It's a real pleasure tobe here and talk to you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
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