April 20, 2025 • 26 mins
Check out Ranpak today , here is their website and ESG report
https://www.ranpak.com/sustainability/
How has Ranpak been leading the way in sustainability for over 50 years?
Why does paper make such a great option for shipping?
Did you know Ranpak has amazing automation equipment?
Contact Us at Atlantic Packaging Today for Smart Strategies, Sustainable Solutions
Innovative Packaging you can trust for over 75 years!
https://anewearthproject.com/pages/our-story
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/packaging-today-show/id1656906367
Join Us Live Daily on LinkedIn Or YouTube or listen at your leisure on Apple or Spotify
Packaging Today Podcast
https://open.spotify.com/show/6dksVwqEFVDWdggd27fyFF?si=e924995740f94e19
https://www.linkedin.com/in/cory-connors/
I'm here to help you make your packaging more sustainable! Reach out today and I'll get back to you asap.
This podcast is an independent production and the podcast production is an original work of the author. All rights of ownership and reproduction are retained—copyright 2022.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Cory Connors (00:00):
Welcome to Sustainable Packaging
(00:02):
with Cory Connors.
Today's guest is the mostviewed episode of all time, our
first episode ever, a returnto Mr. David Mergio the chief
sustainability officer at ourpartner Ranpak . Welcome, sir.
David Murgio (00:20):
Thank you so much.
I'm thrilled to be here.
I'm proud to have been thefirst and I'm glad to be back.
Cory and Brody.
Cory Connors (00:26):
Best episode ever.
well, most viewed, mostlistened to episode of all time.
350 something episodes later.
we're so honored to haveyou back, sir. Wonderful.
Thank you.
Brodie Vander Dussen (00:38):
It's like a circular economy of the
David Murgio (00:41):
that's right.
It's the circular economyof the podcast where
we've gotten full circle.
Brodie Vander Dussen (00:45):
Yeah.
I'm so excited.
I, I. before joining thepodcast, I've been a big
fan of the podcast, as weall know, so loved listening
to your first episode.
And so I'm really excited tobe back for your 2nd, hopefully
we'll be able to do another 1and hopefully not 5 years later,
David Murgio (01:01):
but I hope so too,
Brodie Vander Dussen (01:02):
for those who maybe didn't
listen to the 1st episode.
Can you tell us a littlebit about your background?
How you got to bewhere you're at?
and yeah, sure.
Sure.
So my
David Murgio (01:09):
background, I actually come from
a legal background.
I was a lawyer fora number of years.
and, in that role, I was acorporate lawyer working on
large corporate transactions.
So in that role, my job reallyconsisted of managing huge
projects with lots of different.
Inputs and lots of differentpeople with different expertise
is and, along the way, I endedup as the general counsel, a
(01:31):
company called one Madison,which in turn acquired and
brought ramp act public.
And after one Madison broughtramp act public, I became the
chief sustainability officerand the, there are obvious
synergies like, there's a lotof regulatory stuff going on
with sustainability right now.
I can read a law.
I can read some regulation,understand what it means, and
that's all good and disclosure.
Is stuff that I had donein my prior life, but the
(01:53):
big real connection is.
This idea of pulling togetherlots of different people
with lots of differentexpertises towards a single
goal in a single directionand a single project.
So I'm working with sales.
I'm working with procurement.
I'm working with operations,working with marketing
and most of my projectsis just about everything.
(02:15):
I do is chiefsustainability officer.
It really involves pullingtogether all these different
constituencies internally andgetting everybody marching in
the same direction, which oddlyenough is a lot like what.
A corporate transactionallawyer does.
Brodie Vand (02:28):
I love that though.
I think, so often wetalk about in the.
Sustainability space,specifically a sustainable
packaging space.
We talk about how ittakes everybody involved.
Everyone has to be at thetable to really make a
difference and make an impact.
so often we have theseconversations almost
in silos and pilotsfail, things don't work.
you get down the line andsomething super sustainable,
(02:49):
but it doesn't perform wellbecause we didn't pull the
right people in to test it.
And therefore it's not reallysustainable, So we really have
to have everyone together.
Right.
First thing intention,
David Murgio (03:00):
absolutely.
And the first, I always say likethe most important thing for
sustainable to be a sustainableproduct is that it works, right?
If it doesn't work, it doesn'tmatter what it's made of.
Nothing else matters, right?
Exactly.
In our business.
if the product gets brokenduring shipping, it doesn't
matter what it's wrapped in,what it was chipped in, right?
It's a sustainable disaster.
absolutely agree with you 1000%.
(03:21):
And one of the fun things aboutbeing a chief sustainability
officer, especially if yourcompany like Rampack, whose
mission is sustainabilityis sustainable oriented,
it's a. it's, we're notlike an oil company, right?
Our core mission issustainability related.
One of the fun things andthe best things about being
chief sustainability officeris the ability to see across
(03:42):
all those silos, just like yousaid, and connect all those
different pieces and reallyget a top down integrated.
Sense of the business.
And that's just really fun.
I love talking to guyson the floor and in
our assembly spaces.
I like talking to marketingpeople, salespeople, everything.
So a hundred percentagree with you, Brody.
Brodie Vander Dussen (04:01):
I think that's the fun part.
It's like very creative.
it's, there's a lot that youget to do, but you get to work
with so many different people
David Murgio (04:07):
and
Brodie Vander Dussen (04:08):
working styles, different goals.
Pull everyone together.
It's makes thatwin so much better.
Cory Connors (04:13):
Absolutely.
100 percent.
I was excited to go toEigelschaben in Europe,
your European headquarters.
Brand new facility.
It's a beautiful facility,incredibly sustainable.
They brought me on the roofand showed me all the, it
was neat to be able to seeall the solar panels, but you
could see Germany and Holland.
(04:36):
I was just like From theroof, right on the border of
all these different areas.
And to see an old, what'sit a coal plant or something
that had been shuttered yearsago and to see the growth
and the change in sustainablefocus, sustainability focus.
So impressive, but you'vegot, a history there.
(04:59):
Absolutely.
I think we should mention thatyou, we, before you started, we,
before we started, you had saidwhen Ranpak started and can
you speak to that a little bit?
Absolutely.
So Ranpak,David Murgio: Ranpak is,
the longterm history andlet's talk about what we've
been doing for the last fiveyears since we last spoke.
the longterm history, it's it's.
(05:21):
Oddly prophetic, right?
in the sense that the firstEarth Day was, I want to say, it
was April, late April ish, 1970.
Two or three weeks thereafter,in early May, 1970, the
first patent was filedfor the first pad pack.
Ranpak didn't even exist yet.
Frankly, as an organization, itwasn't formed for another year
(05:41):
or two, but that first patentthat, locked down the IP for
our pad pack, which we stillhave a pad pack today, it looks
very different than that firstpad pack, a lot more high tech.
It's a lot prettier.
It does everything much better,but our roots are pretty much.
Line up pretty perfectlywith Earth Day, and it's
exciting to be here.
52 years later to seeeverything that's happened,
(06:04):
how much we've expanded.
that first pad packwas a product that used
paper, not plastic, usedpaper for packaging for
secondary packaging.
We used paper before thesustainability was cool, right?
We've always been paper.
From the beginning.
and it's really in our roots.
(06:25):
people say it's in our DNA.
this is we were nothing withoutpaper that we didn't exist.
There was no partof our business that
existed in plastic.
We are paper from the beginning.
It's sustainablefrom the beginning.
And it's really exciting tosee how far we've come as a
society caring about this stuff.
And as a business, effectuatingthis kind of change in
(06:47):
the global supply chain.
it's it's a wonderfulthing to be a part of.
It's an impressive history andyou're exactly right.
This is not a, flash in the pan.
This is something thatyou've always focused on
and it's been the, impetusfor many innovations.
I think it's exciting to see.
It was really cool to seethat first machine or one
of the first machines there.
(07:08):
and it's clunky
David Murgio (07:09):
and big and square and ugly.
And then to look
Cory Connors (07:12):
around the room at these elegant,
beautiful pieces of equipment.
Absolutely.
That, are cutting edgetechnology using AI
and machine learning.
I was like, whoa, this issuch a dichotomy of old
and new and, but alwaysfocus on sustainability.
Absolutely.
David Murgio (07:29):
100%.
and the last five yearssince we spoke, we've taken,
it's just amazing how muchwe've come in the last five
years, even, the company wasdoing great for its first.
48 years or whatever it is,but the last 5 years has
been just so much fun andexciting to be a part of.
we've upgraded andexpanded our footprint.
(07:49):
we started rent it bythe gut renovation of our
global headquarters in Ohio.
We.
Built Eigelshoven, aBreen, certified building.
50 percent of ourpower is onsite solar.
that building, which Ialways think is so funny as
a, as an American, doesn'thave a natural gas line,
which is so bizarre to me.
(08:11):
It's all electric and 50 percentof that energy is, is solar.
We've built, as I thinkyou know, we've expanded,
we have an 80, 000 squarefoot Automation headquarters
in Shelton, Connecticut,which is a new facility came
online about 18 months ago.
Super exciting facility.
A lot of stuff going on there.
And I know we'll talkabout automation more.
(08:32):
And then our most recentaddition on the footprint
side is Malaysia.
we've opened a new, paperconversion facility in Malaysia.
Which is exciting becauseit allows us to service,
the Pacific, the PacificRim, Australia, Japan, South
Korea, all those countries,New Zealand locally.
Which also is a hugeboon for sustainability.
(08:54):
We're not shipping stuffacross the world anymore, as
that plant rolls, ramps up andwe're gonna get to a point.
We're not shipping stuffacross the world and allows
us to serve all of ourcustomers globally much closer
to their point of service.
So that's super exciting.
and then we'll talkmore about products.
with so many new products inthe last five years, we've
got and then I want to talkabout automation and AI, but
I'm doing all the talking.
(09:14):
You guys talk.
I don't want to cut you all off.
No,
Brodie Vander Dussen (09:18):
I didn't want to cut you off because
that was going to be my nextquestion of, what have you
been up to the last five years?
I think yourfootprint is amazing.
I think, a lot of timesthat transportation,
David Murgio (09:30):
huh.
B (09:31):
Environmental costs, I'll say is not taken into consideration.
It's, the money isreally important.
we have to make it work,
David Murgio (09:39):
but
Brodie Vander Dussen (09:39):
often we're not really considering
the carbon impact of shippingsomething on a truck across the
country versus on a ship versuswhat, if you can do it locally,
there's so much, there's suchan impact that could have.
But I would really loveto learn, I know Rampact's
always been in the businessof paper, but I'd really
love to learn more.
We got to talk to, Brian, afew weeks ago, a few months
(10:01):
ago, about some of the productsyou guys have coming out that
are really cool in automation.
Can you tell me a littlebit more about the products
you guys have come out with,in the last five years?
David Murgio (10:09):
Sure.
Brodi (10:10):
but you're excited about?
Yeah,
David Murgio (10:12):
absolutely.
So obviously automation.
We'll talk aboutautomation in a minute.
Let's put that off to the sidebecause that's a huge, that's
been a huge investment of ours.
I think it's super exciting.
It's going to revolutionizeeverything about fulfillment
aside from automation,which we'll come back to.
we've put out.
Um, we've launched a wholenew cold chain line, right?
both cold packs and, restcold and climate liner pads
(10:33):
that are 100 percent paperto replace those EPS, those
styrofoam boxes to allow fortemperature controlled shipment.
that's an exciting thing.
Huge boon to sustainability.
We've launched Guardian acouple of years ago and,
relaunched, Upgraded or,Guardian is predominantly
a, cushioning product.
So we think about our business,our paper businesses, wrapping,
(10:56):
void, fill, cushioning,wrapping, being replacing
bubble wrap with a paper,with our GMI products and
wrapping household wares, void,fill being the, filling the
empty spaces and boxes mostlyused by e commerce people.
But we have this wholecushioning business,
which is more about.
Which is more geared towardsindustrial, customers who
(11:16):
need to ship heavy things.
auto parts, aircraft parts,tools, think big hunks of
metal, and that's a superexciting thing for me on the
sustainability side, becausehistorically that has been
such an unsustainability.
The kind of legacytechnology, foams in
(11:38):
place, these are terriblethings for the environment.
Terrible things forthe environment.
So the ability to create apaper product that can replace
those, those technologies formore industrial applications
is a super exciting thing.
cushioning is a big thing.
we're, we've rolled out anature mailer, 100 percent
paper envelope, mailer envelopedesigned to replace polys
(12:01):
to reduce plastic there.
We've, we've got a newproduct coming out now
that we're launching.
We're in the processof launching.
I think it's gonna bea pro mat next week.
paper wrap.
Which super exciting product,but paper wrap is it's a, it's
with a partnership with Mondis,a European, paper mill, right?
Paper manufacturer anda company called paper
(12:23):
wrap also out of Europe.
And what we're doing is we'rebringing this technology to the
U. S. To wrap pallets with paperas opposed to plastic films.
When you think about Allthe pallets that are wrapped
and they get wrapped andshipped and everywhere.
this is a massive opportunityto reduce our supply chain
reliance on plastic massive.
(12:45):
And this is a product thatwe're super excited about.
it works, it's sustainable.
It's curbside recyclable.
and it, it's cost competitivewith plastic wraps.
the idea of being ableto, wrap beverage.
all these industries thatRanpak hasn't historically
necessarily been involved in.
this is just a, it's astep change in our ability
(13:05):
to bring, to bring paperto the supply chain and
reduce reliance on plastic.
So that's super exciting.
Brodie Vander Dussen (13:11):
I think even I totally agree.
I'm stoked about the ideaof, an opportunity to move,
but traditionally, we justreally haven't had anything
that have really fit, to bea good switch out, I would
say, but another, I think ahuge impact is packaging EPR.
If you're shipping into thestates, plastic compared
to paper by weight issomething that you're going
(13:34):
to, you're going to haveto make that decision.
It's going to
David Murgio (13:36):
impact.
Brodie Vander Dussen (13:37):
It's going to be another layer of
cost that hasn't traditionallybeen a part of the equation.
So switching for somethinglike that is going to be huge.
David Murgio (13:45):
Absolutely.
and our, for us, becausewe're global business,
we're dealing with, in theU. S. EPR is on the come.
I know Oregon is further along,California is coming along.
but our experience in Europeis it's real right now.
we have customers in Europewho want to know what
is the additional cost.
How do I, it's another item.
It's another, another facton which to make a comparison
(14:06):
between plastic and paper.
And it's, as a human being,I think it's terrific.
As, as I think it's wonderfulthat we're incentivizing
people to use more recyclablepackaging material as,
the chief sustainabilityofficer at Ranpak packets.
Just terrific because it'sright down our wheelhouse
Cory Connors (14:23):
sure has helped your sales.
I know.
Yeah, that's great
David Murgio (14:26):
for sure.
Well, I
Cory Connors (14:28):
think that's what speaks to the green
bottom line and the bottom linebeing, being very, intertwined.
And I think this is what we'retrying to say is for many years,
people said, Oh, sustainablepackaging is more expensive.
And it was.
It used to be.
Used to be.
Used to be.
And now, if you don't moveto more sustainable options,
(14:50):
it's going to hit your bottomline in a negative way,
because like you said, PPWR,EPR, all these things coming.
David Murgio (14:57):
And also, not only that, but we, we're
in this weird transitionplace about where we're
going on sustainability,on this, in our national
politics and everything.
But the reality is allof that aside, all of
that aside, I have, threekids in their twenties.
So they're old enough toknow, but still young, they
will not, the sustainabilityof what they're buying and
(15:20):
the sustainability of acompany will dictate their
By their consumer choices.
and I don't thinkthat's going to change.
I think anything, whateverhappens up in the air is
not going to change that.
I think that we're enjoyingand I'm thankful to my kids
and their generations thatwe're enjoying this kind
of zero sum push towardsa more sustainable future.
(15:44):
And that's the way it should be.
what's the definition ofsustainability, right?
Definite sustainability thatI always go to, how do you do
what you need to do today inthe way that least adversely
affects conditions tomorrow?
That's all it's about.
How can we do what we dotoday in a way that least
adversely affects ourkids and grandkids lives?
(16:05):
and our kids aretelling us now, do it!
Brodie Vander Dussen (16:07):
Right?
I've often heard the GenerationZ and even a little bit of
Gen Alpha, they're stillpretty young, but Generation
Z referred to as the justicegeneration because they
care deeply about justice.
And I think that translatesto a lot of issues, but I
think it also translatesto environmental too.
(16:28):
Absolutely.
we're watching.
you can't go to the beach,you can't go to a national
park, you can't go to a park,or, there's everywhere you
go, there is trash, and it'soutside of where it should be
going, and we're watching, somuch of what could have been
be, put new houses in, there'sso much going on that I think
we're just watching This feelinglike there's a sense of justice
(16:50):
involved in that, and I thinkthat speaks for an undercurrent
of this consumer habit thatI don't think is going away.
David Murgio (16:58):
Absolutely, and that goes right
to the bottom line.
to your point, EPR is the directcost, but this indirect cost is
the next generation of consumersare just going to say no if
you're not doing it, right?
Yeah, which is wonderful.
Brodie Vander Dussen (17:13):
Yeah,
David Murgio (17:13):
I think as a human being, it's wonderful.
Brodie Vander Dussen (17:15):
And I think small changes, right,
when, as a consumer, if youstart using a brand, you,
that has a difference, younotice that difference.
Then if you do go back to adifferent brand that, maybe
isn't as sustainable, and nowI have all of this packaging
that I have to throw away, Idon't want to buy that again.
it's this experience, userexperience that I don't
think, I'm excited to seemore brands really pay
(17:39):
attention to is what I'll say.
I
David Murgio (17:40):
agree with you 100%.
I agree with you and tosegue to our automation.
I know that's wherewe want to go.
our automation business, right?
So Rampact, when we last spoke,we had an automation business,
but it was very small sincethen we've invested a ton,
our automation business andour automation business is
a little different from ourhistoric paper business, right?
(18:01):
Our historic paper businesswas about selling relatively,
I'm not going to say lowtech, but, basic relatively.
Leasing inexpensive machinesthat dispense paper into boxes.
and our automation systemsare different, right?
What we, what our automationsystems do, these are large
(18:21):
pieces of capital equipment.
For high volume users, right?
Our P. S. System.
We call our P. S. Our papers,our paper business serves
everybody from little guysin the back of their garage
selling ceramics up to, 24 7massive fulfillment centers
are automation business.
Our automation equipment ismore geared towards larger,
higher volume people.
(18:43):
And what that, what thosemachines promise is the
ability to effectivelyfit the box to product.
our box sizing equipment,the product goes into one
end, the sensors, the AI,the machine vision senses
the product, and then it goesthrough and the boxes, the
box height is reduced to meetthe needs of the product.
So what does that mean?
(19:03):
Why does that matter?
It matters hugely.
Because without that boxsizing, which is the way most
of the world works right now,what are people shipping?
They're shipping air.
You're shippingtons of empty void.
So what our business does byestablishing and customizing
the height of the box withthis equipment does is it
(19:25):
allows you to pack morepackages onto a palette
and the same palette, cool.
the same cubicspace of a palette.
You get more boxes on there.
What's that mean?
Fewer trucks.
What does that mean?
From an economic perspective?
most of our customersall ship by dim weight,
right dimension by weight.
Now, each product hasa smaller dimension.
(19:45):
They're payingless for shipping.
so they're both sustainability.
There is economic benefitsto these this equipment, and
it's a super, super exciting.
Thing to see being builtand those machines.
I know Corey you've seen them.
They're just impressive theyjust you know stuff flies
through them and it's it'sjust an amazing thing I
Cory Connors (20:06):
I was totally impressed.
Yeah, and Brody and Iwere given Brian a bad
time about all the names.
They're Obviously named
David Murgio (20:13):
the it names, right?
Cory Connors (20:15):
Cut it
David Murgio (20:16):
print it right.
What is there to do?
Oh, that's it Okay.
Corey and
Brodie Vander Dussen (20:19):
I were in Paris for Paris packaging week.
And we ran into this, walkedpast this, what was it?
Store Corey.
It was like print itor something like that.
And I was like, Oh,
David Murgio (20:29):
must
Cory Connors (20:32):
be a retail outlet.
Such an awesome companyand really impressed
with the innovations.
I did want to tell aquick story one time.
My career as a salesperson,I, we switched out a company,
shipping very heavy, veryfragile items, to your pad
pack senior and, the coworkerscame over to me and shook
(20:53):
my hand and said, thank you.
Because they were usingfoam in place, and they
were, they showed me theirt shirts that had holes in
them from the chemicals, andthey were just so thankful.
it becomes, Brody and I havetalked about this a lot,
sustainability becomes a healthissue at a certain point.
Absolutely.
David Murgio (21:11):
Especially compared to foam in place.
foam in place is such adirty, for the poor, for the
workers who have to use it.
it's 100%.
totally.
Cory Connors (21:22):
And of course it was effective.
It works.
Yeah, of course.
And that was great.
and, but I think thetechnology is improving.
100 percent agree.
There's so many greatoptions that RAMPAC has
that can package anything.
And I had another customerusing RAMPAC CC machines
(21:43):
for lighter items.
And they asked me, how canwe lower the cost here?
So we did a whole thing wherewe showed them how to use
less material and just theright amount of material.
This is, before you hadyour automation equipment.
We saved them 25percent the next month.
just by being creative withhow we packed the material.
David Murgio (22:07):
and absolutely.
And that's one of the othersuper exciting things over
the past few years that youwouldn't necessarily associate
with kind of an old schoolmanufacturing packaging company.
And that is our.
Reliance, commitment,investment in AI, machine,
(22:28):
machine learning, machine,vision, and all of that is
just super, super exciting.
It goes to exactlywhat you're saying.
the, um.
it's manifold.
the, so our automation equipmentall works with, our credits,
which are the box sizing,equipment all works with
machine vision and scanning and.
(22:51):
Decision tower.
That's right.
That's what I want to getto the decision tower.
That to me is the mostexciting piece of equipment.
the decision tower is atower that sits over that.
It's like a doorway thatthe conveyor goes through
and the decision tower.
What's so exciting about thedecision tower is we've got
machine vision on top, scanningvoid, scanning everything.
(23:16):
But what I think is soexciting and so cool.
The way our applications worknow that the result of those
scans tells the equipmenthow high the box should be.
It tells the auto fill howmuch void fill should go in it.
and we're really at thebeginning of this revolution
because what we're seeing andwhat we're learning is that
piece of equipment, the decisiontower is an opportunity to
(23:38):
collect so much data and tocreate So much additional value
for our customers value thatI honestly believe we don't
even understand yet what it is.
We as a society.
it's like we end up withthe ability for customers
just off the top of my head.
Easy things.
I'm a lawyer, right?
EPR.
(23:59):
Scanning and cataloging allof the packaging equipment,
all the packaging materialsfor a shipper who's subject
to EPR decision tower.
That's a softwareissue decision tower.
We can figure out thesoftware, taking pictures
inside the boxes.
So dealing with whether theactual products were in the
boxes or not in the boxes.
(24:20):
it is.
It's like, how doI think about this?
It's I feel like, It's nowI'm not a technologist.
Let me just say right up front,I don't understand that stuff.
Really?
I'm not a data scientist, butI feel like it's like for data
scientists who are interestedin this stuff and fulfillment,
it's like being kids in candystores, because you've just
got this array of potentialdata that can be taken from
(24:42):
this piece of equipment.
and it just, there's goingto be ripple effects.
and so much of what we'redoing is focusing on that
data in order to makethe fulfillment process.
More efficient, more sustainablein ways that I feel like we're
just at the beginning of thatwe can't even imagine today.
And that's super,super exciting.
(25:02):
Totally agree.
Yeah,
Brodi (25:05):
it's a good time to be in sustainability and it's
even better time to bein sustainable packaging.
David Murgio (25:09):
Absolutely.
100 percent agree with that.
It's a good point.
Cory Connors (25:13):
Well, it's a great way to end the show.
I think we're all so impressedwith what you're doing and
the team at Rampac are doing.
How do we get in touch with you?
How do people reachout if they want to?
Well,
David Murgio (25:24):
we've got our website www.
rampac.
com.
you can see our report on there.
You can see all ofour products on there.
There's, there's,contact form or whatever.
If you're interested in, in,in reaching out about, specific
product applications thatgoes right to our sales team.
If you've got sustainabilityquestions, you can
reach out to me.
I don't mind giving myemail mergio, M U R G I
(25:47):
O dot David at Rampac.
com.
I love talking to people.
I love talking to customers.
I like hearing whatpeople are thinking.
anybody who is interestedin sustainable packaging,
feel free to reach out.
Cory Connors (25:59):
Thank you, sir. This has been
David Murgio (26:01):
awesome.
Terrific.
Thank you.
It's wonderfultalking to you again.
Let's not make it five years.
Yeah, we'll do it again soon.
Thank you, sir. Talk to you.
Welcome to Sustainable Packaging
(00:02):
with Cory Connors.
Today's guest is the mostviewed episode of all time, our
first episode ever, a returnto Mr. David Mergio the chief
sustainability officer at ourpartner Ranpak . Welcome, sir.
David Murgio (00:20):
Thank you so much.
I'm thrilled to be here.
I'm proud to have been thefirst and I'm glad to be back.
Cory and Brody.
Cory Connors (00:26):
Best episode ever.
well, most viewed, mostlistened to episode of all time.
350 something episodes later.
we're so honored to haveyou back, sir. Wonderful.
Thank you.
Brodie Vander Dussen (00:38):
It's like a circular economy of the
David Murgio (00:41):
that's right.
It's the circular economyof the podcast where
we've gotten full circle.
Brodie Vander Dussen (00:45):
Yeah.
I'm so excited.
I, I. before joining thepodcast, I've been a big
fan of the podcast, as weall know, so loved listening
to your first episode.
And so I'm really excited tobe back for your 2nd, hopefully
we'll be able to do another 1and hopefully not 5 years later,
David Murgio (01:01):
but I hope so too,
Brodie Vander Dussen (01:02):
for those who maybe didn't
listen to the 1st episode.
Can you tell us a littlebit about your background?
How you got to bewhere you're at?
and yeah, sure.
Sure.
So my
David Murgio (01:09):
background, I actually come from
a legal background.
I was a lawyer fora number of years.
and, in that role, I was acorporate lawyer working on
large corporate transactions.
So in that role, my job reallyconsisted of managing huge
projects with lots of different.
Inputs and lots of differentpeople with different expertise
is and, along the way, I endedup as the general counsel, a
(01:31):
company called one Madison,which in turn acquired and
brought ramp act public.
And after one Madison broughtramp act public, I became the
chief sustainability officerand the, there are obvious
synergies like, there's a lotof regulatory stuff going on
with sustainability right now.
I can read a law.
I can read some regulation,understand what it means, and
that's all good and disclosure.
Is stuff that I had donein my prior life, but the
(01:53):
big real connection is.
This idea of pulling togetherlots of different people
with lots of differentexpertises towards a single
goal in a single directionand a single project.
So I'm working with sales.
I'm working with procurement.
I'm working with operations,working with marketing
and most of my projectsis just about everything.
(02:15):
I do is chiefsustainability officer.
It really involves pullingtogether all these different
constituencies internally andgetting everybody marching in
the same direction, which oddlyenough is a lot like what.
A corporate transactionallawyer does.
Brodie Vand (02:28):
I love that though.
I think, so often wetalk about in the.
Sustainability space,specifically a sustainable
packaging space.
We talk about how ittakes everybody involved.
Everyone has to be at thetable to really make a
difference and make an impact.
so often we have theseconversations almost
in silos and pilotsfail, things don't work.
you get down the line andsomething super sustainable,
(02:49):
but it doesn't perform wellbecause we didn't pull the
right people in to test it.
And therefore it's not reallysustainable, So we really have
to have everyone together.
Right.
First thing intention,
David Murgio (03:00):
absolutely.
And the first, I always say likethe most important thing for
sustainable to be a sustainableproduct is that it works, right?
If it doesn't work, it doesn'tmatter what it's made of.
Nothing else matters, right?
Exactly.
In our business.
if the product gets brokenduring shipping, it doesn't
matter what it's wrapped in,what it was chipped in, right?
It's a sustainable disaster.
absolutely agree with you 1000%.
(03:21):
And one of the fun things aboutbeing a chief sustainability
officer, especially if yourcompany like Rampack, whose
mission is sustainabilityis sustainable oriented,
it's a. it's, we're notlike an oil company, right?
Our core mission issustainability related.
One of the fun things andthe best things about being
chief sustainability officeris the ability to see across
(03:42):
all those silos, just like yousaid, and connect all those
different pieces and reallyget a top down integrated.
Sense of the business.
And that's just really fun.
I love talking to guyson the floor and in
our assembly spaces.
I like talking to marketingpeople, salespeople, everything.
So a hundred percentagree with you, Brody.
Brodie Vander Dussen (04:01):
I think that's the fun part.
It's like very creative.
it's, there's a lot that youget to do, but you get to work
with so many different people
David Murgio (04:07):
and
Brodie Vander Dussen (04:08):
working styles, different goals.
Pull everyone together.
It's makes thatwin so much better.
Cory Connors (04:13):
Absolutely.
100 percent.
I was excited to go toEigelschaben in Europe,
your European headquarters.
Brand new facility.
It's a beautiful facility,incredibly sustainable.
They brought me on the roofand showed me all the, it
was neat to be able to seeall the solar panels, but you
could see Germany and Holland.
(04:36):
I was just like From theroof, right on the border of
all these different areas.
And to see an old, what'sit a coal plant or something
that had been shuttered yearsago and to see the growth
and the change in sustainablefocus, sustainability focus.
So impressive, but you'vegot, a history there.
(04:59):
Absolutely.
I think we should mention thatyou, we, before you started, we,
before we started, you had saidwhen Ranpak started and can
you speak to that a little bit?
Absolutely.
So Ranpak,David Murgio: Ranpak is,
the longterm history andlet's talk about what we've
been doing for the last fiveyears since we last spoke.
the longterm history, it's it's.
(05:21):
Oddly prophetic, right?
in the sense that the firstEarth Day was, I want to say, it
was April, late April ish, 1970.
Two or three weeks thereafter,in early May, 1970, the
first patent was filedfor the first pad pack.
Ranpak didn't even exist yet.
Frankly, as an organization, itwasn't formed for another year
(05:41):
or two, but that first patentthat, locked down the IP for
our pad pack, which we stillhave a pad pack today, it looks
very different than that firstpad pack, a lot more high tech.
It's a lot prettier.
It does everything much better,but our roots are pretty much.
Line up pretty perfectlywith Earth Day, and it's
exciting to be here.
52 years later to seeeverything that's happened,
(06:04):
how much we've expanded.
that first pad packwas a product that used
paper, not plastic, usedpaper for packaging for
secondary packaging.
We used paper before thesustainability was cool, right?
We've always been paper.
From the beginning.
and it's really in our roots.
(06:25):
people say it's in our DNA.
this is we were nothing withoutpaper that we didn't exist.
There was no partof our business that
existed in plastic.
We are paper from the beginning.
It's sustainablefrom the beginning.
And it's really exciting tosee how far we've come as a
society caring about this stuff.
And as a business, effectuatingthis kind of change in
(06:47):
the global supply chain.
it's it's a wonderfulthing to be a part of.
It's an impressive history andyou're exactly right.
This is not a, flash in the pan.
This is something thatyou've always focused on
and it's been the, impetusfor many innovations.
I think it's exciting to see.
It was really cool to seethat first machine or one
of the first machines there.
(07:08):
and it's clunky
David Murgio (07:09):
and big and square and ugly.
And then to look
Cory Connors (07:12):
around the room at these elegant,
beautiful pieces of equipment.
Absolutely.
That, are cutting edgetechnology using AI
and machine learning.
I was like, whoa, this issuch a dichotomy of old
and new and, but alwaysfocus on sustainability.
Absolutely.
David Murgio (07:29):
100%.
and the last five yearssince we spoke, we've taken,
it's just amazing how muchwe've come in the last five
years, even, the company wasdoing great for its first.
48 years or whatever it is,but the last 5 years has
been just so much fun andexciting to be a part of.
we've upgraded andexpanded our footprint.
(07:49):
we started rent it bythe gut renovation of our
global headquarters in Ohio.
We.
Built Eigelshoven, aBreen, certified building.
50 percent of ourpower is onsite solar.
that building, which Ialways think is so funny as
a, as an American, doesn'thave a natural gas line,
which is so bizarre to me.
(08:11):
It's all electric and 50 percentof that energy is, is solar.
We've built, as I thinkyou know, we've expanded,
we have an 80, 000 squarefoot Automation headquarters
in Shelton, Connecticut,which is a new facility came
online about 18 months ago.
Super exciting facility.
A lot of stuff going on there.
And I know we'll talkabout automation more.
(08:32):
And then our most recentaddition on the footprint
side is Malaysia.
we've opened a new, paperconversion facility in Malaysia.
Which is exciting becauseit allows us to service,
the Pacific, the PacificRim, Australia, Japan, South
Korea, all those countries,New Zealand locally.
Which also is a hugeboon for sustainability.
(08:54):
We're not shipping stuffacross the world anymore, as
that plant rolls, ramps up andwe're gonna get to a point.
We're not shipping stuffacross the world and allows
us to serve all of ourcustomers globally much closer
to their point of service.
So that's super exciting.
and then we'll talkmore about products.
with so many new products inthe last five years, we've
got and then I want to talkabout automation and AI, but
I'm doing all the talking.
(09:14):
You guys talk.
I don't want to cut you all off.
No,
Brodie Vander Dussen (09:18):
I didn't want to cut you off because
that was going to be my nextquestion of, what have you
been up to the last five years?
I think yourfootprint is amazing.
I think, a lot of timesthat transportation,
David Murgio (09:30):
huh.
B (09:31):
Environmental costs, I'll say is not taken into consideration.
It's, the money isreally important.
we have to make it work,
David Murgio (09:39):
but
Brodie Vander Dussen (09:39):
often we're not really considering
the carbon impact of shippingsomething on a truck across the
country versus on a ship versuswhat, if you can do it locally,
there's so much, there's suchan impact that could have.
But I would really loveto learn, I know Rampact's
always been in the businessof paper, but I'd really
love to learn more.
We got to talk to, Brian, afew weeks ago, a few months
(10:01):
ago, about some of the productsyou guys have coming out that
are really cool in automation.
Can you tell me a littlebit more about the products
you guys have come out with,in the last five years?
David Murgio (10:09):
Sure.
Brodi (10:10):
but you're excited about?
Yeah,
David Murgio (10:12):
absolutely.
So obviously automation.
We'll talk aboutautomation in a minute.
Let's put that off to the sidebecause that's a huge, that's
been a huge investment of ours.
I think it's super exciting.
It's going to revolutionizeeverything about fulfillment
aside from automation,which we'll come back to.
we've put out.
Um, we've launched a wholenew cold chain line, right?
both cold packs and, restcold and climate liner pads
(10:33):
that are 100 percent paperto replace those EPS, those
styrofoam boxes to allow fortemperature controlled shipment.
that's an exciting thing.
Huge boon to sustainability.
We've launched Guardian acouple of years ago and,
relaunched, Upgraded or,Guardian is predominantly
a, cushioning product.
So we think about our business,our paper businesses, wrapping,
(10:56):
void, fill, cushioning,wrapping, being replacing
bubble wrap with a paper,with our GMI products and
wrapping household wares, void,fill being the, filling the
empty spaces and boxes mostlyused by e commerce people.
But we have this wholecushioning business,
which is more about.
Which is more geared towardsindustrial, customers who
(11:16):
need to ship heavy things.
auto parts, aircraft parts,tools, think big hunks of
metal, and that's a superexciting thing for me on the
sustainability side, becausehistorically that has been
such an unsustainability.
The kind of legacytechnology, foams in
(11:38):
place, these are terriblethings for the environment.
Terrible things forthe environment.
So the ability to create apaper product that can replace
those, those technologies formore industrial applications
is a super exciting thing.
cushioning is a big thing.
we're, we've rolled out anature mailer, 100 percent
paper envelope, mailer envelopedesigned to replace polys
(12:01):
to reduce plastic there.
We've, we've got a newproduct coming out now
that we're launching.
We're in the processof launching.
I think it's gonna bea pro mat next week.
paper wrap.
Which super exciting product,but paper wrap is it's a, it's
with a partnership with Mondis,a European, paper mill, right?
Paper manufacturer anda company called paper
(12:23):
wrap also out of Europe.
And what we're doing is we'rebringing this technology to the
U. S. To wrap pallets with paperas opposed to plastic films.
When you think about Allthe pallets that are wrapped
and they get wrapped andshipped and everywhere.
this is a massive opportunityto reduce our supply chain
reliance on plastic massive.
(12:45):
And this is a product thatwe're super excited about.
it works, it's sustainable.
It's curbside recyclable.
and it, it's cost competitivewith plastic wraps.
the idea of being ableto, wrap beverage.
all these industries thatRanpak hasn't historically
necessarily been involved in.
this is just a, it's astep change in our ability
(13:05):
to bring, to bring paperto the supply chain and
reduce reliance on plastic.
So that's super exciting.
Brodie Vander Dussen (13:11):
I think even I totally agree.
I'm stoked about the ideaof, an opportunity to move,
but traditionally, we justreally haven't had anything
that have really fit, to bea good switch out, I would
say, but another, I think ahuge impact is packaging EPR.
If you're shipping into thestates, plastic compared
to paper by weight issomething that you're going
(13:34):
to, you're going to haveto make that decision.
It's going to
David Murgio (13:36):
impact.
Brodie Vander Dussen (13:37):
It's going to be another layer of
cost that hasn't traditionallybeen a part of the equation.
So switching for somethinglike that is going to be huge.
David Murgio (13:45):
Absolutely.
and our, for us, becausewe're global business,
we're dealing with, in theU. S. EPR is on the come.
I know Oregon is further along,California is coming along.
but our experience in Europeis it's real right now.
we have customers in Europewho want to know what
is the additional cost.
How do I, it's another item.
It's another, another facton which to make a comparison
(14:06):
between plastic and paper.
And it's, as a human being,I think it's terrific.
As, as I think it's wonderfulthat we're incentivizing
people to use more recyclablepackaging material as,
the chief sustainabilityofficer at Ranpak packets.
Just terrific because it'sright down our wheelhouse
Cory Connors (14:23):
sure has helped your sales.
I know.
Yeah, that's great
David Murgio (14:26):
for sure.
Well, I
Cory Connors (14:28):
think that's what speaks to the green
bottom line and the bottom linebeing, being very, intertwined.
And I think this is what we'retrying to say is for many years,
people said, Oh, sustainablepackaging is more expensive.
And it was.
It used to be.
Used to be.
Used to be.
And now, if you don't moveto more sustainable options,
(14:50):
it's going to hit your bottomline in a negative way,
because like you said, PPWR,EPR, all these things coming.
David Murgio (14:57):
And also, not only that, but we, we're
in this weird transitionplace about where we're
going on sustainability,on this, in our national
politics and everything.
But the reality is allof that aside, all of
that aside, I have, threekids in their twenties.
So they're old enough toknow, but still young, they
will not, the sustainabilityof what they're buying and
(15:20):
the sustainability of acompany will dictate their
By their consumer choices.
and I don't thinkthat's going to change.
I think anything, whateverhappens up in the air is
not going to change that.
I think that we're enjoyingand I'm thankful to my kids
and their generations thatwe're enjoying this kind
of zero sum push towardsa more sustainable future.
(15:44):
And that's the way it should be.
what's the definition ofsustainability, right?
Definite sustainability thatI always go to, how do you do
what you need to do today inthe way that least adversely
affects conditions tomorrow?
That's all it's about.
How can we do what we dotoday in a way that least
adversely affects ourkids and grandkids lives?
(16:05):
and our kids aretelling us now, do it!
Brodie Vander Dussen (16:07):
Right?
I've often heard the GenerationZ and even a little bit of
Gen Alpha, they're stillpretty young, but Generation
Z referred to as the justicegeneration because they
care deeply about justice.
And I think that translatesto a lot of issues, but I
think it also translatesto environmental too.
(16:28):
Absolutely.
we're watching.
you can't go to the beach,you can't go to a national
park, you can't go to a park,or, there's everywhere you
go, there is trash, and it'soutside of where it should be
going, and we're watching, somuch of what could have been
be, put new houses in, there'sso much going on that I think
we're just watching This feelinglike there's a sense of justice
(16:50):
involved in that, and I thinkthat speaks for an undercurrent
of this consumer habit thatI don't think is going away.
David Murgio (16:58):
Absolutely, and that goes right
to the bottom line.
to your point, EPR is the directcost, but this indirect cost is
the next generation of consumersare just going to say no if
you're not doing it, right?
Yeah, which is wonderful.
Brodie Vander Dussen (17:13):
Yeah,
David Murgio (17:13):
I think as a human being, it's wonderful.
Brodie Vander Dussen (17:15):
And I think small changes, right,
when, as a consumer, if youstart using a brand, you,
that has a difference, younotice that difference.
Then if you do go back to adifferent brand that, maybe
isn't as sustainable, and nowI have all of this packaging
that I have to throw away, Idon't want to buy that again.
it's this experience, userexperience that I don't
think, I'm excited to seemore brands really pay
(17:39):
attention to is what I'll say.
I
David Murgio (17:40):
agree with you 100%.
I agree with you and tosegue to our automation.
I know that's wherewe want to go.
our automation business, right?
So Rampact, when we last spoke,we had an automation business,
but it was very small sincethen we've invested a ton,
our automation business andour automation business is
a little different from ourhistoric paper business, right?
(18:01):
Our historic paper businesswas about selling relatively,
I'm not going to say lowtech, but, basic relatively.
Leasing inexpensive machinesthat dispense paper into boxes.
and our automation systemsare different, right?
What we, what our automationsystems do, these are large
(18:21):
pieces of capital equipment.
For high volume users, right?
Our P. S. System.
We call our P. S. Our papers,our paper business serves
everybody from little guysin the back of their garage
selling ceramics up to, 24 7massive fulfillment centers
are automation business.
Our automation equipment ismore geared towards larger,
higher volume people.
(18:43):
And what that, what thosemachines promise is the
ability to effectivelyfit the box to product.
our box sizing equipment,the product goes into one
end, the sensors, the AI,the machine vision senses
the product, and then it goesthrough and the boxes, the
box height is reduced to meetthe needs of the product.
So what does that mean?
(19:03):
Why does that matter?
It matters hugely.
Because without that boxsizing, which is the way most
of the world works right now,what are people shipping?
They're shipping air.
You're shippingtons of empty void.
So what our business does byestablishing and customizing
the height of the box withthis equipment does is it
(19:25):
allows you to pack morepackages onto a palette
and the same palette, cool.
the same cubicspace of a palette.
You get more boxes on there.
What's that mean?
Fewer trucks.
What does that mean?
From an economic perspective?
most of our customersall ship by dim weight,
right dimension by weight.
Now, each product hasa smaller dimension.
(19:45):
They're payingless for shipping.
so they're both sustainability.
There is economic benefitsto these this equipment, and
it's a super, super exciting.
Thing to see being builtand those machines.
I know Corey you've seen them.
They're just impressive theyjust you know stuff flies
through them and it's it'sjust an amazing thing I
Cory Connors (20:06):
I was totally impressed.
Yeah, and Brody and Iwere given Brian a bad
time about all the names.
They're Obviously named
David Murgio (20:13):
the it names, right?
Cory Connors (20:15):
Cut it
David Murgio (20:16):
print it right.
What is there to do?
Oh, that's it Okay.
Corey and
Brodie Vander Dussen (20:19):
I were in Paris for Paris packaging week.
And we ran into this, walkedpast this, what was it?
Store Corey.
It was like print itor something like that.
And I was like, Oh,
David Murgio (20:29):
must
Cory Connors (20:32):
be a retail outlet.
Such an awesome companyand really impressed
with the innovations.
I did want to tell aquick story one time.
My career as a salesperson,I, we switched out a company,
shipping very heavy, veryfragile items, to your pad
pack senior and, the coworkerscame over to me and shook
(20:53):
my hand and said, thank you.
Because they were usingfoam in place, and they
were, they showed me theirt shirts that had holes in
them from the chemicals, andthey were just so thankful.
it becomes, Brody and I havetalked about this a lot,
sustainability becomes a healthissue at a certain point.
Absolutely.
David Murgio (21:11):
Especially compared to foam in place.
foam in place is such adirty, for the poor, for the
workers who have to use it.
it's 100%.
totally.
Cory Connors (21:22):
And of course it was effective.
It works.
Yeah, of course.
And that was great.
and, but I think thetechnology is improving.
100 percent agree.
There's so many greatoptions that RAMPAC has
that can package anything.
And I had another customerusing RAMPAC CC machines
(21:43):
for lighter items.
And they asked me, how canwe lower the cost here?
So we did a whole thing wherewe showed them how to use
less material and just theright amount of material.
This is, before you hadyour automation equipment.
We saved them 25percent the next month.
just by being creative withhow we packed the material.
David Murgio (22:07):
and absolutely.
And that's one of the othersuper exciting things over
the past few years that youwouldn't necessarily associate
with kind of an old schoolmanufacturing packaging company.
And that is our.
Reliance, commitment,investment in AI, machine,
(22:28):
machine learning, machine,vision, and all of that is
just super, super exciting.
It goes to exactlywhat you're saying.
the, um.
it's manifold.
the, so our automation equipmentall works with, our credits,
which are the box sizing,equipment all works with
machine vision and scanning and.
(22:51):
Decision tower.
That's right.
That's what I want to getto the decision tower.
That to me is the mostexciting piece of equipment.
the decision tower is atower that sits over that.
It's like a doorway thatthe conveyor goes through
and the decision tower.
What's so exciting about thedecision tower is we've got
machine vision on top, scanningvoid, scanning everything.
(23:16):
But what I think is soexciting and so cool.
The way our applications worknow that the result of those
scans tells the equipmenthow high the box should be.
It tells the auto fill howmuch void fill should go in it.
and we're really at thebeginning of this revolution
because what we're seeing andwhat we're learning is that
piece of equipment, the decisiontower is an opportunity to
(23:38):
collect so much data and tocreate So much additional value
for our customers value thatI honestly believe we don't
even understand yet what it is.
We as a society.
it's like we end up withthe ability for customers
just off the top of my head.
Easy things.
I'm a lawyer, right?
EPR.
(23:59):
Scanning and cataloging allof the packaging equipment,
all the packaging materialsfor a shipper who's subject
to EPR decision tower.
That's a softwareissue decision tower.
We can figure out thesoftware, taking pictures
inside the boxes.
So dealing with whether theactual products were in the
boxes or not in the boxes.
(24:20):
it is.
It's like, how doI think about this?
It's I feel like, It's nowI'm not a technologist.
Let me just say right up front,I don't understand that stuff.
Really?
I'm not a data scientist, butI feel like it's like for data
scientists who are interestedin this stuff and fulfillment,
it's like being kids in candystores, because you've just
got this array of potentialdata that can be taken from
(24:42):
this piece of equipment.
and it just, there's goingto be ripple effects.
and so much of what we'redoing is focusing on that
data in order to makethe fulfillment process.
More efficient, more sustainablein ways that I feel like we're
just at the beginning of thatwe can't even imagine today.
And that's super,super exciting.
(25:02):
Totally agree.
Yeah,
Brodi (25:05):
it's a good time to be in sustainability and it's
even better time to bein sustainable packaging.
David Murgio (25:09):
Absolutely.
100 percent agree with that.
It's a good point.
Cory Connors (25:13):
Well, it's a great way to end the show.
I think we're all so impressedwith what you're doing and
the team at Rampac are doing.
How do we get in touch with you?
How do people reachout if they want to?
Well,
David Murgio (25:24):
we've got our website www.
rampac.
com.
you can see our report on there.
You can see all ofour products on there.
There's, there's,contact form or whatever.
If you're interested in, in,in reaching out about, specific
product applications thatgoes right to our sales team.
If you've got sustainabilityquestions, you can
reach out to me.
I don't mind giving myemail mergio, M U R G I
(25:47):
O dot David at Rampac.
com.
I love talking to people.
I love talking to customers.
I like hearing whatpeople are thinking.
anybody who is interestedin sustainable packaging,
feel free to reach out.
Cory Connors (25:59):
Thank you, sir. This has been
David Murgio (26:01):
awesome.
Terrific.
Thank you.
It's wonderfultalking to you again.
Let's not make it five years.
Yeah, we'll do it again soon.
Thank you, sir. Talk to you.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.