March 30, 2025 • 21 mins
https://www.linkedin.com/in/naresh-khanna-5578311/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/ipp-catalog-publications-p-l/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/ippo-international-packaging-press-organisation/posts/?feedView=all
Naresh Khanna, has great experience in the world of packaging and an impressive history. We are both members of the IPPO (International Packaging Press Organization)
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Cory Connors (00:00):
Welcome to Sustainable Packaging
with Cory Connors.
I'm really excited todayto introduce Nuresh Khanna.
He's the editor of PackagingSouth Asia and the vice
president of IPPO, a groupthat we're both members of,
and I'm excited to learnyour perspective, sir.
So welcome to the show.
Naresh Khanna (00:19):
Thank you.
It's an honor.
Cory Connors (00:21):
Thank you.
Can you tell us aboutyour background?
Naresh Kha (00:25):
Well, I'm an Indian.
I was born in Bombay in 1949.
I'm what's called, oneof Midnight's children
who were born just afterindependence of the country.
And, also I'm at the sameage as the Baby Boomers.
And it so happens that, whenI was about eight or nine
years old, eight and a halfyears old, I went to the U.
S. Because my fatherwas posted there.
(00:47):
apart from growing up in Mumbaiand New Delhi as a child, I
also, grew up in New York City.
Cory Connors (00:53):
Wow.
Quite a culture shock, I bet.
Naresh Khanna (00:57):
I went to one of the special high schools
in New York City, which hada very good, public education
system in those days.
Excellent.
I went to a specialized highschool called Brooklyn Tech.
And, later on to college there.
And, when I was about 25 yearsold, I came back to India.
I had already, been trained asa computer programmer on the
(01:17):
IBM 360, had some, technical,background, et cetera.
and I had workedas a printer also.
And I was in fact, quiteactive during the anti war
movement concerning Vietnamand also the movement for
racial integration, education.
although I was a foreignerand a foreign student, I
(01:38):
was quite an active, person.
Great.
And, that was,that's my background.
I came back to India andI, didn't know much about
the country, I thought.
So I, Decided to work asa printer, so I can keep
my mouth shut for a while.
And then, so I, then I gotinvolved in the movement
(01:59):
to implement Indianscripts using computers.
Oh, and, one of my great,you could say gurus was John
Seybold, and who pointedme out to various people,
including Donald Knuth and,this gentleman at MIT who talks
about artificial intelligencenow, but in those days he was
working on optical characterrecognition because he wanted
(02:23):
to create a machine, thatcould read books to the blind.
Cory Connors (02:27):
Oh, that's incredible.
Naresh Khanna (02:29):
a very well known person, his name is
not coming to me immediately,but, he's the person who's
talking about the singularityof artificial intelligence.
Anyway.
Cory Connors (02:39):
So that sure has come up recently, right?
Things are changing quickly.
Naresh Khanna (02:45):
So I was involved quite a bit in the
implementation of Indianscripts for computers.
There was animportant conference.
In fact, that movement was alsoengendered by William Schreiber.
Came from MIT to teach atone of the Indian Institutes
of Technology in India,etc. And he was amazing.
(03:07):
Yeah.
So he was quite a character.
He was involved in severalthings to do with our industry,
including the ECRM typesetter,the color scanner, for which
he had several Patents.
Um, he influenced F. E.
Arazzi greatly, apparently,which I, recently learned.
(03:28):
So anyway, that's, soI got involved in that.
And, in order to earna living doing that, I
became a consultant aftertwo and a half years and,
working in a printing press.
And, and I also starteda technical newsletter.
And the first issue of thatactually, covered some of
(03:48):
the parameters that we haddesigned for the implementation
of Indian scripts.
And my former boss, hesent it to John Sebald, who
published it on the frontpage of the Sebald report.
And ultimately, variousthings happened.
We implementedthese technologies.
I informally showed them atIPEX in 1993 and show them
(04:09):
even at the Sebald conference.
And I think San Jose.
Oh, yeah.
So quite
Cory Connors (04:15):
a journey from India.
Yeah.
Good for you.
So
Naresh Khanna (04:17):
anyway, I'm saying this, so there is
a kind of interminglingof, technology gurus and
technology, things which,unites people around the world.
And certainly was verycrucial for the, for Indian
society because it enabledus to use Indian scripts.
as they were actually developedand not as they were linearized
and romanized to some extentby the constraints of the
(04:39):
typewriter and the other kindsof instruments because our
scripts have, modificationson the top and the bottom in
between conjunct characters,for us, a font is not 26
caps and 26 lowercase andnine numbers or 10 numbers.
It is like 400 pieces,
Cory Connors (04:55):
right?
Naresh Khanna (04:56):
Which have to be assembled, quite, complex.
for us, these things, these,the technology, particularly,
the Motorola 68000 chip wasa great liberation, you know.
so that's whatyou're saying is it
Cory Connors (05:10):
allowed, it allowed computers to
use the Indian language.
Is that what you're sayingwhen you say scripts?
Naresh Khanna (05:16):
Yeah, it was a graphics.
It was a kind of a first graphicship, which we saw on the Mac.
Cory Connors (05:21):
I see.
Wonderful.
Naresh Khanna (05:23):
And it was a dual use ship, actually.
It was quite difficultto get it into India.
That's another story.
Bet.
In any case, so that wasthing and then I continue to
work as a consultant to theindustry, helping it modernize
and use new technology, etc.
And my technical newslettergrew into a magazine, which
(05:44):
is now almost 45 years oldIndian printer and publisher.
And then subsequently, Istarted another magazine called
Packaging South Asia in 2007.
And, so that's how I haveby default become a kind
of a packaging person.
And, that's someof the background.
Cory Connors (06:03):
That's quite a career already.
And, it almost feels likeyou're just getting started.
I'm very impressed.
Well done.
Naresh Khanna (06:11):
it's, it's just, Actually, the willingness to
work with your hands and thewillingness to learn sometimes
out of manuals where technologyis imported and people really
don't know how to use it andyou're literate and you're also
willing to work with your hands.
So that makes a difference.
(06:32):
and I agree.
And so that's, so that'sbeen my good luck, Yeah.
my first job
Cory Connors (06:37):
was making boxes.
And, I think all of us shouldhave a, hands on job for,
in the trenches, in theproduction facility, at least
one time in our careers.
Naresh Khanna (06:49):
Yeah.
In fact, I worked in NewYork city on west 27th street
in the spear box factory.
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
Cory Connors (06:56):
Was that corrugated or chipboard?
Naresh Khanna (06:58):
No, that was, it was, folding boxes, with
owner used to design to set up.
in a department store, likeBrooks brothers or something.
When you buy your suit,you put it in and he.
And he was, quite a characterbecause he would design these
boxes and he would show themto various people to see if
they could construct them.
And he was very disappointedif somebody could construct
(07:18):
them, And I was a studentand I, we'd always come up
with a solution and he wasquite angry about that.
Cory Connors (07:24):
He didn't know your history.
How funny.
Naresh Khanna (07:27):
So that's, that's my experience also.
Yeah, so I worked in printingplants in New York City and,
Cory Con (07:31):
packaging plants also.
Naresh Khanna (07:33):
Great.
Cory Connors (07:33):
So you're still publishing the magazines.
I'm assuming they'reonline and printed.
Naresh Khanna (07:39):
Yeah, they're online.
In fact, we started thethird magazine just after the
pandemic called Indy food bear.
Because, food industryin India is the second
largest producer of fruitand vegetable in the world.
largest producer ofmilk in the world.
so that's much biggerindustry than packaging.
And it turns out that,it's like a 900 billion
(07:59):
industry, food industry inIndia out of the, maybe 3.
7 trillion GDP.
So almost 25%.
and, a lot of the packagingin India has to do with food
processing and packaging.
And that's the whole,goal you could say is to
help save food in a way.
Maximum protein to themaximum population.
(08:20):
So it's not that packagingcan save food, but it can
help in the process ofdelivering it organically
and, with full benefit.
it's, that's one of themain sustainability things
to get done, as we werediscussing a few weeks ago.
There's no point in havingsustainable packaging
(08:42):
if you can't preservefood and unfortunately a
lot of food in India iswasted on the farm itself.
It's not like Europe andAmerica where food is
wasted in the home, throwit out of their fridge, etc.
Here the wastage takesplace right at the source
because it's not picked up,it's not sorted, processed.
(09:06):
Et cetera, et cetera.
And, so there is a great,so that's an interesting
new development.
Of course, when, afterwe started the magazine,
the pandemic happened.
So we've had to restart it.
But we are very hopeful.
So that's the third magazine.
And then we also have aseparate company, by the
way, IVP Star, which isa company which continues
the consulting as services.
(09:29):
Star stands for services,training, and research.
So we do training.
We've done training overthe years in many things,
including color management.
We were part of idea alliancefor a while, and we do research
because we were entering the20th century 21st century, and I
realized the data on the Indianindustry on all the packaging
(09:51):
printing and publishingverticals was not very good.
I decided to develop that.
And that has.
that's a very interestingcompany actually.
Because it also doesconferences and various other
community activities forthe industry, you would say.
Cory Connors (10:05):
And you travel quite a bit for conferences
and events, don't you?
Naresh Khanna (10:10):
Well, Corey, frankly, I have been traveling
quite a bit over the years.
But, I don't know if youcan publish this or not,
but it's very difficultto travel from India.
Oh,
Cory Connors (10:19):
sure.
Naresh Khanna (10:20):
Yeah.
We are quite far away fromthe, center of things, Sure.
While things are generally,happening in America or
California or, in Europe,in Germany, our industry.
or even in Japan.
So it's not that easy.
But as years havegone by, yes, one has.
(10:41):
It has become easier to travel.
It's far away, and it'snot easy to finance.
Also, even My consultingwork doesn't really
take me there much.
And, the publishing work also,but one has got invited over
the years, to things likeDrupal and this and that.
So it's the junket.
And when I started to combinethat with some, other,
(11:03):
interesting tourism, let's say.
Looking around.
Why not?
Otherwise the travelwouldn't really be worth it.
I
Cory Connors (11:11):
agree.
Yeah.
You have to add in some fun,when you're working hard.
Naresh Khanna (11:16):
Yeah, friends, et cetera.
So I have been traveling.
my wife thinks I traveled a lot,but I, but not so much,
not so much recently.
And certainly Ihave to slow down.
it's ridiculous that kindof, some of the travel
that they ask you to do isimpossible, from India to
Australia for half a day.
Cory Connors (11:36):
Yeah.
Can you come here for an hourand speak and then leave?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Naresh Khanna (11:41):
It's not very realistic.
I think it's not realistic.
In fact, that's my, I wouldmuch rather that they advertise
rather than give me a junkie.
Cory Connors (11:52):
Advertise for your companies or your magazines.
Yeah.
Naresh Khanna (11:55):
Advertise for my magazines.
revenue has alwaysbeen a constraint here.
our ad rates are not as high aswe are in the West, et cetera.
Sure.
But anyway, there has beena hunger for information and
for credible information.
so being a credible,technical journalist.
is, is quite interestingand quite rewarding.
Cory Connors (12:15):
You're doing important work and we thank you
for that, for, for telling therest of the world what's going
on there in India and, givingus your perspective, as an
international packaging expert.
well done.
Thank you.
Naresh Khanna (12:28):
I'm I only I think what's interesting is
that the perspectives and thenarratives have to be broadened
that a lot of the biases andthinking the regulations,
the insistence comes down tous from the West, and from
the developed economies, andthere has to be more sympathy.
(12:48):
Or where, other people are andhow they look at the world.
So I, I sometimes maybe speakingout of turn, but I like to,
I'd like to think that thereis another way of looking
at things, that there areother narratives, and that,
we all need to be sensitiveto each other's narratives.
Cory Connors (13:05):
Yes, such a great point.
We need to be aware of wherepeople are from and what
they've experienced in theirlives well here we were
talking about sustainabilityAnd sustainability is a
luxury and we need to beaware of that I would like to
talk to you about that fromyour perspective in India.
(13:25):
Have you seen any positive?
changes in the way thatPackaging or waste is handled
Naresh Khanna (13:31):
Oh, yes.
in India, there are a surprisingnumber of development and
they are not talked about,in fact, in the West.
And it's not that I thinkthey need to be talked about
because many of them aregrowing and developing in a
fairly, up and down manner.
Sometimes there's one stepforward and two steps back and
there are a lot of convictions.
(13:53):
These are there everywhere,but in most societies,
things are very smooth,at least on the top.
And you don't see thecontradictions in our, culture,
the contradictions are veryapparent, but I believe, many
things are being done and theyare being done, although there's
(14:13):
government, which is also awareof its role and the government
has launched various movements,like there's a cleanup movement
for the country called SwatchBharat, Which is, which has
now been taken up by civilsociety and profit organizations
and municipalities and, othersocial groups and institutions.
(14:34):
And that is perhapscurrently the largest social
movement in the world.
Wow.
For cleaning up cities,for cleaning up waste.
That's wonderful.
And there are groups like Centerfor Science and Environment,
which, 10 years ago, whenthis movement was launched,
in fact, by the government,by the prime minister, they
(14:55):
also simultaneously came upwith, a slogan called not in
my backyard remains becausewhat happens in India is
the landfills are normallywhere the poor people live.
Sure.
landfills are neverwhere the wealthy live.
And that's the same inDelhi, et cetera, where there
are mountainous landfills.
Very sad.
So that's a big social movement,with 4, 600 cities involved.
(15:18):
And, unfortunately in India,the people who pick up the
waste They're glorified, asthe informal sector really
means very poor people,sometimes children who are,
going through the waste.
So that's not, that's somethingthat industry should not accept.
You should not accept.
so you have government,you have civil society
with this huge movement.
(15:39):
Launched by the government buttaken up by civil society into a
large social movement, coveringmore than 40, 000, maybe 40,
000 towns, but 4, 600 cities.
And, it's a very large,very big movement.
So that is there.
Then the government hasgot regulation, on the
waste control order.
It's one of the first countriesthat banned single use plastics.
(16:02):
Okay.
That came into in July of, 2022,2021, in fact, July 1st, 2021.
Then they have the, plasticwaste management rules and
the EPR, that came intoforce as of, Feb. that was
notified in February of, 2022.
This, the Amended PlasticWaste Management rules,
(16:24):
and those are now in force.
including the EPR, whichmeans in 2025, you're going
to have to account for allyour, waste and plastic
waste and four categories.
There are threecategories of producers,
importers, converters.
so this is all theretheoretically, at least
(16:45):
there's a portal, right?
There's a portal whereyou're supposed to register.
recently there was adiscussion on how the
portal is not perfect, you
Cory Connors (16:53):
know, where
Naresh Khanna (16:54):
there are many, anomalies.
And of course, there's a huge,there is some contradiction
between industry also, whichthinks that these are just, this
is something that will go away.
Cory Connors (17:04):
Yeah, just ignore it, right?
Do you feel like this EPRwill have any positive effect?
Naresh Khanna (17:09):
It seems to be having positive effect because,
this is a situation in whichI believe civil society, the
consumers are ahead of theindustry and, it will have some
effect, but it is going to bevery difficult to implement,
especially as it is notified.
There are many categorieswhich are not understood.
(17:30):
There are many, for instance,the flexible packaging industry
is deeply committed to polyesterand mixed laminates, which
use polyester on the outsideand maybe a luminized layer
and then uses a The insidefor the heat ceiling, right?
they insist that everything is,recyclable, but by recyclable,
(17:54):
they mean downcyclable.
Yes.
You can make, something else or
Cory Connors (17:58):
waste energy or something like that.
Yeah.
Naresh Khanna (18:01):
there is a huge amount of things going on.
Lots of recycling companies.
Of course, these areall mechanical recycling
companies, but very committed.
Some of them who areable to supply very good
quality recyclates withgood track and trace.
Of the sources, the methodsof collection and fairly
uncontaminated stuff.
(18:21):
But as long as the price ofoil is so high, it's difficult
to sell recycled, to brandowners, even, global brand
owners in India, like, anyof the well known ones like
Pepsi or Nestle or Cadbury's.
They're very reluctantto pay that much more.
Cory Connors (18:38):
Cyclic.
There's no incentive.
Naresh Khanna (18:40):
Yeah.
but the EPR is, but manyof the good brand owners,
they have registered.
Cory Connors (18:44):
Good.
Naresh Khanna (18:45):
The importers of plastic
have registered, it's theconverters that are reluctant
Cory Connors (18:49):
and,
Naresh Khanna (18:50):
the, or let's say a little bit slow.
Cory Connors (18:52):
I am, we're experiencing the same thing
here where I live in Oregon,all across the way across the
other side of the world is EPRcomes into effect this year.
And it sounds like, sowe'll be going, we'll be
able to commiserate, howthis experience goes.
Naresh Khanna (19:07):
So it's going to be difficult, but I've,
and, the converters normallyin India, they blame the
government indirectly or theconsumer, why isn't the consumer
smarter and why are they not?
handling the waste better,sorting at source, et cetera.
But that's, but civilsociety is looking into that.
and, the leadership in the civilsociety is very good in India.
(19:30):
they're taking part in theinternational meetings,
whether they are in Korea orin Latin America or in Africa,
they are trying, and, butthe government is very tough.
It's very difficult to,in India, at least to
take on the government.
So you have to try and be onthe right side of the government
while you're an advocate and,and then there's industry.
(19:52):
Which is, very close togovernment sometimes,
Cory Connors (19:54):
right?
Yeah.
Sometimes too close, right?
Naresh Khanna (19:57):
But I think overall, EPR
will have some effect.
But if you look at the realdata, of the amount of plastic.
Packaging that will be demandedin India, the growth curve is
very high and there is veryhigh investment by the, big
(20:18):
oil companies in India, therefineries in producing polymer,
they're not happy producing onlydiesel or petrol or other stuff.
they are looking at the futureof producing more polymer.
Cory Connors (20:30):
Yeah, well, as demand spikes, there's,
there's a financialincentive to do that, right?
Yeah.
Niraj, thank you so much foryour time, for your wisdom.
what's the best way for peopleto get in touch with you if
they want to advertise inyour magazines or work with
your consulting business?
Naresh Khanna (20:49):
Well, they can write to me
at editor at ipbgroup.
in.
They can go to our websites.
We have, five live websites.
I'll ask you
Cory Connors (20:59):
to, maybe you could email those to me and
I'll put them in the show notesso we can have those links.
Naresh Khanna (21:05):
I'll do that.
Cory Connors (21:06):
Great.
Well, thank you, sir. Iappreciate you and your wisdom.
This has been great.
Naresh Khanna (21:12):
Okay.
I hope it's useful.
Cory Connors (21:14):
Very good.
Welcome to Sustainable Packaging
with Cory Connors.
I'm really excited todayto introduce Nuresh Khanna.
He's the editor of PackagingSouth Asia and the vice
president of IPPO, a groupthat we're both members of,
and I'm excited to learnyour perspective, sir.
So welcome to the show.
Naresh Khanna (00:19):
Thank you.
It's an honor.
Cory Connors (00:21):
Thank you.
Can you tell us aboutyour background?
Naresh Kha (00:25):
Well, I'm an Indian.
I was born in Bombay in 1949.
I'm what's called, oneof Midnight's children
who were born just afterindependence of the country.
And, also I'm at the sameage as the Baby Boomers.
And it so happens that, whenI was about eight or nine
years old, eight and a halfyears old, I went to the U.
S. Because my fatherwas posted there.
(00:47):
apart from growing up in Mumbaiand New Delhi as a child, I
also, grew up in New York City.
Cory Connors (00:53):
Wow.
Quite a culture shock, I bet.
Naresh Khanna (00:57):
I went to one of the special high schools
in New York City, which hada very good, public education
system in those days.
Excellent.
I went to a specialized highschool called Brooklyn Tech.
And, later on to college there.
And, when I was about 25 yearsold, I came back to India.
I had already, been trained asa computer programmer on the
(01:17):
IBM 360, had some, technical,background, et cetera.
and I had workedas a printer also.
And I was in fact, quiteactive during the anti war
movement concerning Vietnamand also the movement for
racial integration, education.
although I was a foreignerand a foreign student, I
(01:38):
was quite an active, person.
Great.
And, that was,that's my background.
I came back to India andI, didn't know much about
the country, I thought.
So I, Decided to work asa printer, so I can keep
my mouth shut for a while.
And then, so I, then I gotinvolved in the movement
(01:59):
to implement Indianscripts using computers.
Oh, and, one of my great,you could say gurus was John
Seybold, and who pointedme out to various people,
including Donald Knuth and,this gentleman at MIT who talks
about artificial intelligencenow, but in those days he was
working on optical characterrecognition because he wanted
(02:23):
to create a machine, thatcould read books to the blind.
Cory Connors (02:27):
Oh, that's incredible.
Naresh Khanna (02:29):
a very well known person, his name is
not coming to me immediately,but, he's the person who's
talking about the singularityof artificial intelligence.
Anyway.
Cory Connors (02:39):
So that sure has come up recently, right?
Things are changing quickly.
Naresh Khanna (02:45):
So I was involved quite a bit in the
implementation of Indianscripts for computers.
There was animportant conference.
In fact, that movement was alsoengendered by William Schreiber.
Came from MIT to teach atone of the Indian Institutes
of Technology in India,etc. And he was amazing.
(03:07):
Yeah.
So he was quite a character.
He was involved in severalthings to do with our industry,
including the ECRM typesetter,the color scanner, for which
he had several Patents.
Um, he influenced F. E.
Arazzi greatly, apparently,which I, recently learned.
(03:28):
So anyway, that's, soI got involved in that.
And, in order to earna living doing that, I
became a consultant aftertwo and a half years and,
working in a printing press.
And, and I also starteda technical newsletter.
And the first issue of thatactually, covered some of
(03:48):
the parameters that we haddesigned for the implementation
of Indian scripts.
And my former boss, hesent it to John Sebald, who
published it on the frontpage of the Sebald report.
And ultimately, variousthings happened.
We implementedthese technologies.
I informally showed them atIPEX in 1993 and show them
(04:09):
even at the Sebald conference.
And I think San Jose.
Oh, yeah.
So quite
Cory Connors (04:15):
a journey from India.
Yeah.
Good for you.
So
Naresh Khanna (04:17):
anyway, I'm saying this, so there is
a kind of interminglingof, technology gurus and
technology, things which,unites people around the world.
And certainly was verycrucial for the, for Indian
society because it enabledus to use Indian scripts.
as they were actually developedand not as they were linearized
and romanized to some extentby the constraints of the
(04:39):
typewriter and the other kindsof instruments because our
scripts have, modificationson the top and the bottom in
between conjunct characters,for us, a font is not 26
caps and 26 lowercase andnine numbers or 10 numbers.
It is like 400 pieces,
Cory Connors (04:55):
right?
Naresh Khanna (04:56):
Which have to be assembled, quite, complex.
for us, these things, these,the technology, particularly,
the Motorola 68000 chip wasa great liberation, you know.
so that's whatyou're saying is it
Cory Connors (05:10):
allowed, it allowed computers to
use the Indian language.
Is that what you're sayingwhen you say scripts?
Naresh Khanna (05:16):
Yeah, it was a graphics.
It was a kind of a first graphicship, which we saw on the Mac.
Cory Connors (05:21):
I see.
Wonderful.
Naresh Khanna (05:23):
And it was a dual use ship, actually.
It was quite difficultto get it into India.
That's another story.
Bet.
In any case, so that wasthing and then I continue to
work as a consultant to theindustry, helping it modernize
and use new technology, etc.
And my technical newslettergrew into a magazine, which
(05:44):
is now almost 45 years oldIndian printer and publisher.
And then subsequently, Istarted another magazine called
Packaging South Asia in 2007.
And, so that's how I haveby default become a kind
of a packaging person.
And, that's someof the background.
Cory Connors (06:03):
That's quite a career already.
And, it almost feels likeyou're just getting started.
I'm very impressed.
Well done.
Naresh Khanna (06:11):
it's, it's just, Actually, the willingness to
work with your hands and thewillingness to learn sometimes
out of manuals where technologyis imported and people really
don't know how to use it andyou're literate and you're also
willing to work with your hands.
So that makes a difference.
(06:32):
and I agree.
And so that's, so that'sbeen my good luck, Yeah.
my first job
Cory Connors (06:37):
was making boxes.
And, I think all of us shouldhave a, hands on job for,
in the trenches, in theproduction facility, at least
one time in our careers.
Naresh Khanna (06:49):
Yeah.
In fact, I worked in NewYork city on west 27th street
in the spear box factory.
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
Cory Connors (06:56):
Was that corrugated or chipboard?
Naresh Khanna (06:58):
No, that was, it was, folding boxes, with
owner used to design to set up.
in a department store, likeBrooks brothers or something.
When you buy your suit,you put it in and he.
And he was, quite a characterbecause he would design these
boxes and he would show themto various people to see if
they could construct them.
And he was very disappointedif somebody could construct
(07:18):
them, And I was a studentand I, we'd always come up
with a solution and he wasquite angry about that.
Cory Connors (07:24):
He didn't know your history.
How funny.
Naresh Khanna (07:27):
So that's, that's my experience also.
Yeah, so I worked in printingplants in New York City and,
Cory Con (07:31):
packaging plants also.
Naresh Khanna (07:33):
Great.
Cory Connors (07:33):
So you're still publishing the magazines.
I'm assuming they'reonline and printed.
Naresh Khanna (07:39):
Yeah, they're online.
In fact, we started thethird magazine just after the
pandemic called Indy food bear.
Because, food industryin India is the second
largest producer of fruitand vegetable in the world.
largest producer ofmilk in the world.
so that's much biggerindustry than packaging.
And it turns out that,it's like a 900 billion
(07:59):
industry, food industry inIndia out of the, maybe 3.
7 trillion GDP.
So almost 25%.
and, a lot of the packagingin India has to do with food
processing and packaging.
And that's the whole,goal you could say is to
help save food in a way.
Maximum protein to themaximum population.
(08:20):
So it's not that packagingcan save food, but it can
help in the process ofdelivering it organically
and, with full benefit.
it's, that's one of themain sustainability things
to get done, as we werediscussing a few weeks ago.
There's no point in havingsustainable packaging
(08:42):
if you can't preservefood and unfortunately a
lot of food in India iswasted on the farm itself.
It's not like Europe andAmerica where food is
wasted in the home, throwit out of their fridge, etc.
Here the wastage takesplace right at the source
because it's not picked up,it's not sorted, processed.
(09:06):
Et cetera, et cetera.
And, so there is a great,so that's an interesting
new development.
Of course, when, afterwe started the magazine,
the pandemic happened.
So we've had to restart it.
But we are very hopeful.
So that's the third magazine.
And then we also have aseparate company, by the
way, IVP Star, which isa company which continues
the consulting as services.
(09:29):
Star stands for services,training, and research.
So we do training.
We've done training overthe years in many things,
including color management.
We were part of idea alliancefor a while, and we do research
because we were entering the20th century 21st century, and I
realized the data on the Indianindustry on all the packaging
(09:51):
printing and publishingverticals was not very good.
I decided to develop that.
And that has.
that's a very interestingcompany actually.
Because it also doesconferences and various other
community activities forthe industry, you would say.
Cory Connors (10:05):
And you travel quite a bit for conferences
and events, don't you?
Naresh Khanna (10:10):
Well, Corey, frankly, I have been traveling
quite a bit over the years.
But, I don't know if youcan publish this or not,
but it's very difficultto travel from India.
Oh,
Cory Connors (10:19):
sure.
Naresh Khanna (10:20):
Yeah.
We are quite far away fromthe, center of things, Sure.
While things are generally,happening in America or
California or, in Europe,in Germany, our industry.
or even in Japan.
So it's not that easy.
But as years havegone by, yes, one has.
(10:41):
It has become easier to travel.
It's far away, and it'snot easy to finance.
Also, even My consultingwork doesn't really
take me there much.
And, the publishing work also,but one has got invited over
the years, to things likeDrupal and this and that.
So it's the junket.
And when I started to combinethat with some, other,
(11:03):
interesting tourism, let's say.
Looking around.
Why not?
Otherwise the travelwouldn't really be worth it.
I
Cory Connors (11:11):
agree.
Yeah.
You have to add in some fun,when you're working hard.
Naresh Khanna (11:16):
Yeah, friends, et cetera.
So I have been traveling.
my wife thinks I traveled a lot,but I, but not so much,
not so much recently.
And certainly Ihave to slow down.
it's ridiculous that kindof, some of the travel
that they ask you to do isimpossible, from India to
Australia for half a day.
Cory Connors (11:36):
Yeah.
Can you come here for an hourand speak and then leave?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Naresh Khanna (11:41):
It's not very realistic.
I think it's not realistic.
In fact, that's my, I wouldmuch rather that they advertise
rather than give me a junkie.
Cory Connors (11:52):
Advertise for your companies or your magazines.
Yeah.
Naresh Khanna (11:55):
Advertise for my magazines.
revenue has alwaysbeen a constraint here.
our ad rates are not as high aswe are in the West, et cetera.
Sure.
But anyway, there has beena hunger for information and
for credible information.
so being a credible,technical journalist.
is, is quite interestingand quite rewarding.
Cory Connors (12:15):
You're doing important work and we thank you
for that, for, for telling therest of the world what's going
on there in India and, givingus your perspective, as an
international packaging expert.
well done.
Thank you.
Naresh Khanna (12:28):
I'm I only I think what's interesting is
that the perspectives and thenarratives have to be broadened
that a lot of the biases andthinking the regulations,
the insistence comes down tous from the West, and from
the developed economies, andthere has to be more sympathy.
(12:48):
Or where, other people are andhow they look at the world.
So I, I sometimes maybe speakingout of turn, but I like to,
I'd like to think that thereis another way of looking
at things, that there areother narratives, and that,
we all need to be sensitiveto each other's narratives.
Cory Connors (13:05):
Yes, such a great point.
We need to be aware of wherepeople are from and what
they've experienced in theirlives well here we were
talking about sustainabilityAnd sustainability is a
luxury and we need to beaware of that I would like to
talk to you about that fromyour perspective in India.
(13:25):
Have you seen any positive?
changes in the way thatPackaging or waste is handled
Naresh Khanna (13:31):
Oh, yes.
in India, there are a surprisingnumber of development and
they are not talked about,in fact, in the West.
And it's not that I thinkthey need to be talked about
because many of them aregrowing and developing in a
fairly, up and down manner.
Sometimes there's one stepforward and two steps back and
there are a lot of convictions.
(13:53):
These are there everywhere,but in most societies,
things are very smooth,at least on the top.
And you don't see thecontradictions in our, culture,
the contradictions are veryapparent, but I believe, many
things are being done and theyare being done, although there's
(14:13):
government, which is also awareof its role and the government
has launched various movements,like there's a cleanup movement
for the country called SwatchBharat, Which is, which has
now been taken up by civilsociety and profit organizations
and municipalities and, othersocial groups and institutions.
(14:34):
And that is perhapscurrently the largest social
movement in the world.
Wow.
For cleaning up cities,for cleaning up waste.
That's wonderful.
And there are groups like Centerfor Science and Environment,
which, 10 years ago, whenthis movement was launched,
in fact, by the government,by the prime minister, they
(14:55):
also simultaneously came upwith, a slogan called not in
my backyard remains becausewhat happens in India is
the landfills are normallywhere the poor people live.
Sure.
landfills are neverwhere the wealthy live.
And that's the same inDelhi, et cetera, where there
are mountainous landfills.
Very sad.
So that's a big social movement,with 4, 600 cities involved.
(15:18):
And, unfortunately in India,the people who pick up the
waste They're glorified, asthe informal sector really
means very poor people,sometimes children who are,
going through the waste.
So that's not, that's somethingthat industry should not accept.
You should not accept.
so you have government,you have civil society
with this huge movement.
(15:39):
Launched by the government buttaken up by civil society into a
large social movement, coveringmore than 40, 000, maybe 40,
000 towns, but 4, 600 cities.
And, it's a very large,very big movement.
So that is there.
Then the government hasgot regulation, on the
waste control order.
It's one of the first countriesthat banned single use plastics.
(16:02):
Okay.
That came into in July of, 2022,2021, in fact, July 1st, 2021.
Then they have the, plasticwaste management rules and
the EPR, that came intoforce as of, Feb. that was
notified in February of, 2022.
This, the Amended PlasticWaste Management rules,
(16:24):
and those are now in force.
including the EPR, whichmeans in 2025, you're going
to have to account for allyour, waste and plastic
waste and four categories.
There are threecategories of producers,
importers, converters.
so this is all theretheoretically, at least
(16:45):
there's a portal, right?
There's a portal whereyou're supposed to register.
recently there was adiscussion on how the
portal is not perfect, you
Cory Connors (16:53):
know, where
Naresh Khanna (16:54):
there are many, anomalies.
And of course, there's a huge,there is some contradiction
between industry also, whichthinks that these are just, this
is something that will go away.
Cory Connors (17:04):
Yeah, just ignore it, right?
Do you feel like this EPRwill have any positive effect?
Naresh Khanna (17:09):
It seems to be having positive effect because,
this is a situation in whichI believe civil society, the
consumers are ahead of theindustry and, it will have some
effect, but it is going to bevery difficult to implement,
especially as it is notified.
There are many categorieswhich are not understood.
(17:30):
There are many, for instance,the flexible packaging industry
is deeply committed to polyesterand mixed laminates, which
use polyester on the outsideand maybe a luminized layer
and then uses a The insidefor the heat ceiling, right?
they insist that everything is,recyclable, but by recyclable,
(17:54):
they mean downcyclable.
Yes.
You can make, something else or
Cory Connors (17:58):
waste energy or something like that.
Yeah.
Naresh Khanna (18:01):
there is a huge amount of things going on.
Lots of recycling companies.
Of course, these areall mechanical recycling
companies, but very committed.
Some of them who areable to supply very good
quality recyclates withgood track and trace.
Of the sources, the methodsof collection and fairly
uncontaminated stuff.
(18:21):
But as long as the price ofoil is so high, it's difficult
to sell recycled, to brandowners, even, global brand
owners in India, like, anyof the well known ones like
Pepsi or Nestle or Cadbury's.
They're very reluctantto pay that much more.
Cory Connors (18:38):
Cyclic.
There's no incentive.
Naresh Khanna (18:40):
Yeah.
but the EPR is, but manyof the good brand owners,
they have registered.
Cory Connors (18:44):
Good.
Naresh Khanna (18:45):
The importers of plastic
have registered, it's theconverters that are reluctant
Cory Connors (18:49):
and,
Naresh Khanna (18:50):
the, or let's say a little bit slow.
Cory Connors (18:52):
I am, we're experiencing the same thing
here where I live in Oregon,all across the way across the
other side of the world is EPRcomes into effect this year.
And it sounds like, sowe'll be going, we'll be
able to commiserate, howthis experience goes.
Naresh Khanna (19:07):
So it's going to be difficult, but I've,
and, the converters normallyin India, they blame the
government indirectly or theconsumer, why isn't the consumer
smarter and why are they not?
handling the waste better,sorting at source, et cetera.
But that's, but civilsociety is looking into that.
and, the leadership in the civilsociety is very good in India.
(19:30):
they're taking part in theinternational meetings,
whether they are in Korea orin Latin America or in Africa,
they are trying, and, butthe government is very tough.
It's very difficult to,in India, at least to
take on the government.
So you have to try and be onthe right side of the government
while you're an advocate and,and then there's industry.
(19:52):
Which is, very close togovernment sometimes,
Cory Connors (19:54):
right?
Yeah.
Sometimes too close, right?
Naresh Khanna (19:57):
But I think overall, EPR
will have some effect.
But if you look at the realdata, of the amount of plastic.
Packaging that will be demandedin India, the growth curve is
very high and there is veryhigh investment by the, big
(20:18):
oil companies in India, therefineries in producing polymer,
they're not happy producing onlydiesel or petrol or other stuff.
they are looking at the futureof producing more polymer.
Cory Connors (20:30):
Yeah, well, as demand spikes, there's,
there's a financialincentive to do that, right?
Yeah.
Niraj, thank you so much foryour time, for your wisdom.
what's the best way for peopleto get in touch with you if
they want to advertise inyour magazines or work with
your consulting business?
Naresh Khanna (20:49):
Well, they can write to me
at editor at ipbgroup.
in.
They can go to our websites.
We have, five live websites.
I'll ask you
Cory Connors (20:59):
to, maybe you could email those to me and
I'll put them in the show notesso we can have those links.
Naresh Khanna (21:05):
I'll do that.
Cory Connors (21:06):
Great.
Well, thank you, sir. Iappreciate you and your wisdom.
This has been great.
Naresh Khanna (21:12):
Okay.
I hope it's useful.
Cory Connors (21:14):
Very good.
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