Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
There are these
universal attachment needs that
I think we're playing out in ourparenting, of the needs that
maybe our parents weren't sogood about meeting for us.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Let's be honest,
friends.
Sometimes parenting can be thehardest challenge in our
marriage.
And did you know that 90% ofdivorces are initiated by women
and one of the top three leadingcauses is issues over parenting
?
Friend, if these challenges arecoming up for you, first of all
(00:33):
, you're not alone.
Secondly, I'm so excited tooffer you the wisdom today that
came in my conversation withRachel Marr, couples therapist,
EFT specialist and founder ofLittle Bear Counseling here in
Bozeman, Montana.
Her passion is for helpingclients build a strong
scaffolding for success in theirrelationship, and it's all
(00:55):
based on the incredibleevidence-based wisdom of
emotion-focused therapy, EFT andattachment science.
I'm so glad to share Rachel'swisdom with you, as in our
conversation she shared with mehow you can see what you
actually have in common duringyour conflict and what's truly
(01:15):
getting in the way of thatconflict resolving, which is not
usually all the surface stuffwe think it is.
Let's dive in.
Hello and welcome to theSustainable Parenting Podcast.
Let me tell you, friend, thisplace is different.
We fill that gap between gentleparenting and harsh discipline
that's really missing to parentwith kindness and firmness at
(01:39):
the same time and give you theexact steps to be able to parent
in ways that are more realisticand effective and, for that
reason, finally feel sustainable.
Welcome.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
I want couples to
know that chances are there're a
lot more aligned than theyprobably think.
And really parenting is one ofthe highest stakes.
You know occupations out there,and so it makes sense that we
feel a tremendous amount ofpressure and urgency to get it
right in those high pressuremoments.
(02:22):
And so under that degree ofpressure we revert to fight,
fight or freeze, and usually incouples there's one person who's
the fighter and there's one whoflees or freezes.
And I have found that intalking with couples, the more
that we can get to that level ofthe conversation, the softer
(02:45):
they can become with each otherand less threatening those high
tension moments become, so thatthey can navigate through them
and fall back on the strategythat they both agree on.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Yeah, I'm just like
really interested for us to talk
this through, because I seethis all the time.
I just got off a call with acouple that this was exactly it.
They're thinking they're indifferent camps.
One is sort of the stereotypical, overly gentle parenting
oriented mom which is often whatI do see, and the dad was
(03:23):
raised with a very authoritarianstyle and it's sort of like
look at me, I'm successful.
Yeah, I may have had someemotional things to work out
through the years, but like, I'mdoing well and I want my kid to
do well, Right, so what's sobad about that?
What's so bad about just sayingwhat they have to do and right.
And yet, like you say, I thinkit really does absolutely come
(03:47):
down to fear, fear on both sidesthat am I going to have an
unsuccessful kid or am I goingto have an unloved or unnurtured
in the emotional sense.
Kid, what do you see that theyhave in common?
Speaker 1 (04:06):
emotional sense, kid.
What do you see that they havein common?
Well, I think I think you'renailing it.
Let's back out, because mostcouples are coming in at the
fight level of your parenting iswrong, mine is right, and if we
stay with them at that level,they get stuck at that level.
And so I like to zoom out andsay big picture, let's paint a
picture of what is it thatyou're both hoping for?
(04:27):
And it's amazing how hard it isactually for couples to talk
about that.
They want to talk about thesevery granular things.
If I want my child to graduatewith this GPA and at least play,
you know, however many sportsor musical instruments and and
things like that.
And it's really hard again tozoom out and say I want my child
(04:50):
to be successful, I don't wantthem to struggle too much, I
want them to be pro social, prorelational.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Yeah, and positive
discipline.
I love they often.
I often do these in myparenting workshops is start
with a list of like what aresome characteristics or
personality traits you'd love?
to have in your child whenthey're 25 and I always have
found that lens to be so uniquebecause, right, it's like not
(05:21):
also not only the granular aboutthe sport or the grades, but
but it can be so immediate.
I just want him to listen to me.
Why won't he listen?
But then if you zoom out to 25,like, well, no, I don't want a
25 year old who just listens.
What is that Really?
I want him to make wise choices, I want him to be a problem
solver, I want him to takeinitiative.
(05:42):
So then it like gets our scopeon the right thing, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
There's a lot of
nervous system grounding that
happens when you do actuallyengage in a joining conversation
about a shared goal and ashared big picture vision.
And what I have found is thatwhen we're grounded and when we
feel like our partnerunderstands us enough, then we
(06:09):
feel safe enough to get into thegranular and to disagree.
But until that happens, when weget into the granular right
away, immediately, we're usuallyat odd and our guard is up and
we have a much harder time beingcurious and flexible.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
So I can see how that
kind of question of values
clarification gets them tounderstand each other more, in
that shared like understandinggrows alignment.
Tell me more about thegrounding, then.
What helps that happen?
Speaker 1 (06:42):
I like to ask them to
check in with each other of
like, what does it actually feellike to feel on the same page
in this way, like taking stockof what is the relationship
feeling like between the two ofyou.
Usually it's positive,sprinkled with some anxiety.
Of like I know this won't last,and then so really marinating
(07:06):
in that I encourage a lot ofmarination in that where you are
together and then noticing whathappens then, when you start to
bring the granular in and if itstarts to feel threatening,
that just tells us we need to goreally slow on this and we need
to ask ourselves is thissomething we urgently need to
fix or is this something we cankind of pick apart over the next
(07:28):
few weeks very slowly.
Most things can take time.
You know, like the, I love theexample of like I just want my
kid to listen.
Like does that have to happentonight?
Because newsflash it?
Speaker 2 (07:41):
probably isn't going
to.
Yeah, I mean, I think I want todive even deeper into then the
like regulation, like you'resaying.
Then if we start to notice,okay, some of what we're, I love
what you're saying absolutelyabout needing to back up and be
patient about how and when thesethings are going to be quote
(08:02):
solved or resolved.
And yeah, I'm interested.
I do hear a lot of couples talkto me about like now I'm
learning how to think aboutthings differently but I can't
seem to get my body to reactdifferently because of my own
fight or flight, like childhood.
What about childhood isinforming how they're both
(08:25):
reacting and ways to shift fromthen the behavior management of
how do we get the kid to listenand fight over who's right about
the right way to do that?
We need to love them into it orwe need to be stern enough into
it.
How?
Speaker 1 (08:40):
do we shift?
Speaker 2 (08:40):
from behavior
management to our own emotion
regulation management.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Totally.
I think how we shift is whenwe're outside of the chaos.
Don't try to do this in thechaos, too many balls up in the
air but when we're outside ofthe chaos to really start asking
ourselves what am I afraid?
What am I afraid is going tohappen in this moment?
If I don't whatever yourstrategy is, if I don't manage
(09:08):
it, contain it, control it, orif I don't love enough,
understand enough, comfortenough, what am I afraid is
going to happen?
So, really asking ourselveslike, what will happen if I
don't do the thing that I dothat actually is causing
friction in my relationship.
I love that question.
(09:30):
Oh, good, good, and that issomething that I encourage
people to do on their own orwith their therapist, because
their partner can get reallytriggered at this juncture.
There can be a lot of defendingand that sort of thing, but
what am I afraid is going tohappen?
And typically what I hear isI'm afraid my child is going to
(09:57):
become me, which is reallyheartbreaking, right.
Whatever those wounds may be, Ilove your example of kind of
like the permissive mom andmaybe more rigid authoritarian
father, because that is such acommon dynamic and usually for
(10:18):
those more rigid authoritariantypes it's one.
I was raised this way and Iturned out fine, so there's that
.
But underlying that it's like Idon't know how else to do it.
I just don't know what to doRight, and I'm afraid that if I
change, my child will be lesssuccessful or more hurt than me.
(10:38):
I know sometimes for theirauthoritarian parenting it's
like, well, that was just how Iwas raised and I'm fine, right.
Um, but also what I seesometimes is people who were
raised by very permissive orabsent parents kind of going
that direction because theycrave some kind of structure and
(10:59):
predictability, which to meagain says like I want to
provide safety for my kids,which is such a loving intention
.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
You know, yep.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
I don't want them to
feel lost.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Yeah, it's like
there's this innate pull that,
if we were raised by someoneoverly firm, we either lean into
copying that without reallyunderstanding all the reasons,
or we go the opposite, likeyou're saying, towards the
overly kind.
I see that dynamic a lot.
Either I did it and it's fine,or I had the opposite and I'm
trying to give structure.
(11:33):
Yeah, I see what you're saying.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Right, there are
these universal attachment needs
that I think were playing outin our parenting, of the needs
that maybe our parents weren'tso good about meeting for us.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Would you give a
little more like what are, say,
the three to four mainattachment needs that?
You see playing out thatsomehow parenting really pushes
that button for couples.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
The biggest one I see
is safety.
Right, If I had very permissiveparents or very volatile, rigid
parents or just absent parents,right, Safety is the big one
and people try to give theirchildren a sense of safety in a
variety of ways and I often findthat people will partner up who
(12:24):
had unsafe feeling childhood,but then how they try to parent
is at opposite ends of thespectrum, but then how they try
to parent is at opposite ends ofthe spectrum, Whereas when they
can kind of get down to I'mtrying to give my child safety
and predictability, we can havea much more fruitful
conversation.
So that's the first one, Iwould say just overall safety.
(12:46):
I think the other one isacceptance.
Right, If we only experiencedacceptance through performance
when your parents said I'm proudof you based on a GPA or a
sports score, somethingperformance oriented, the wires
(13:07):
get kind of tangled up in theirbrains and they go oh,
acceptance and approval equalshigh performance.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
And do you see that
in women?
I feel like I see that too inwomen, on a little bit of a
shift of the acceptance in termsof like, do you like me Wanting
to be that people pleaser?
And so then when a child islike you're the worst mom ever
because you set a boundary, itpushes that acceptance button in
a different realm.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
That's a really good
correlation of like and
acceptance.
Yeah, because I do thinklikability as we grow up we kind
of find these different ways tobe liked in different realms.
(13:56):
But as little girls, thatcontainer can be pretty small of
what's likable in a little girl.
So like absolutely is one ofthe big ones.
And then I think, uh, this iskind of but a sense of belonging
, do I belong, which I find witha lot of permissive parenting
(14:17):
they're trying to give theirchildren a sense that they
belong, no matter what, becausethey often felt they didn't
really belong in their familywhen they misbehaved.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Yeah, I hear a lot of
moms will tell me the phrase I
was just told I was too much.
Oh yeah, so safety, acceptanceand belonging Absolutely makes
so much sense.
And isn't it interesting, LikeI find, that some of the
interesting dynamics that happenin marriage because of kids is
(14:52):
like those triggers may not havebeen pushed by any of your
dynamics of the relationshipbefore children.
Right, If you had similarhobbies.
You love camping together.
You had similar senses of humor, night owls or morning people,
whatever that.
Nothing in your dynamic mayhave even been able to challenge
(15:14):
you, to test out if you hadthose three things in any order
that were bumping up againsteach other.
And so then I find that parentsare like I loved my husband.
I'd like we got along so welltill we had kids.
Why are we like pissing?
Speaker 1 (15:30):
each other off so
much now.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Why are we so at?
Speaker 1 (15:33):
odds.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
I thought we'd be so
aligned but it's like, yeah,
because you didn't havesomething pushing your button of
missing out on the acceptance,the performance of am I a good
enough?
Mom, or dad?
Am I having a sense of thatbelonging feeling like I fit?
In here as a mom doing it rightor a dad doing it right.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Coming together and
really understanding those
deeper attachment, goals andreactions can be so humanizing
and so helpful.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Yes, I'm so grateful
for the work you're doing with
couples and everything thatyou've offered in this
conversation, so please sharewhere.
How could people follow up withyou or the other counselors you
supervise under Little BearCounseling?
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Yeah, so you can just
look us up at
littlebearcounselingcom.
We are getting more involved inthe community, so you'll
probably see us at communityevents.
We also, as a service to thecommunity, we offer free little
one-hour workshops on attachmentneeds styles, how they impact
us in the workplace and ourromantic relationships.
(16:48):
I'm going to leave theparenting stuff to you, flora,
because you're so good at it andwe regularly direct people your
way.
But that's how people can findus, little bearcom, and if they
have questions about communityofferings, please do reach out.
Or questions just about couplestherapy, please reach out.
(17:10):
We highly value parenting welltogether, and so a lot of people
think we don't need couplestherapy because we're good
except for parenting.
But I think parenting is justkind of like a gateway into a
deeper connection and a morefulfilling partnership.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Oh, I'm so grateful
for your work and, I agree, I
just sent some clients your waythis week.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
It's so nice to have
a space, thank you, yes and I I
really didn't know.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
you had some of those
workshops, so you'll probably
see me taking one soon, becauseI'd love to learn more Great.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Yeah, fantastic.
Well, thank you so much forcollaborating with us and I love
what you're doing and, yeah, Ilook forward to more
conversations in the future, ifyou're up for it.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Yes, thanks so much,
rachel Friend, if you'd like to
leave a review to share howsustainable parenting has been
impacting your life, I would beso grateful.
It helps others to know what'spossible in their families too,
and you can do so easily byscrolling to the bottom of all
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Also, be sure you subscribe tothe podcast so that you
(18:25):
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So parenting finally feelssustainable.