September 17, 2025 • 16 mins
Does bedtime ever feel like the longest part of your day? You’re exhausted, ready for some peace, but your child suddenly transforms into a master negotiator—asking for just one more kiss, one more drink of water, or one more story. If you’ve ever felt torn between wanting to meet those sweet requests and desperately craving your own downtime, this Sustainable Parenting episode is for you.
In today’s conversation with Flora McCormick, LCPC and sleep expert Matthew Wellington, we unpack the 5 Pillars for Peaceful Bedtimes—practical, evidence-based strategies that help kids settle more smoothly and give you back your evenings. This is Sustainable Parenting at its best: kind and firm solutions that work in real life.
Matthew Wellington is a Registered Behaviour Analyst and Board Certified Behaviour Analyst based in Ontario, Canada. He is the founder of Sleep Behaviourally, a consultancy dedicated to helping families and busy professionals improve their sleep through evidence-based behavioural strategies. With a deep commitment to making science practical, Matthew empowers parents and individuals to implement simple, effective changes that lead to lasting rest and wellbeing. His work blends behavioural science with compassion, making him a trusted guide for anyone seeking better sleep and healthier daily routines.
✨ After listening to this episode, you’ll know:
- How to set up the right sleep schedule so your child actually feels tired at bedtime.
- Why a predictable routine matters—and how to use visuals to cut down on nagging and power struggles.
- What environmental cues (light, sound, temperature) can make or break sleep success.
- How to create calming pre-bed activities that cue “wind down” instead of “rev up.”
- Simple ways to minimize those bedtime-stalling behaviors without guilt.
If you’ve been looking for Positive Parenting Strategies that truly help with Getting Kids to Listen, reduce tantrums, and support you in Raising Confident Kids, you’ll find this episode full of simple, sustainable answers to the nightly parenting challenges around bedtime.
Here are the resources by Matthew Wellington: https://sleepbehaviourally.com/resources/
✨Want more?
✨ Schedule a FREE 20 min clarity call with Sustainable Parenting, so we can answer any questions you may have. Together, we'll make a plan for your best next steps to have more calm & confidence in parenting - while having kids that listen!:)
✨ Download the FREE pdf. on getting kids to listen, for strategies that take you out of the "gentle mom - monster mom" cycle, with effective positive parenting strategies.
✨ Sign up for an upcoming LIVE ONLINE workshop with Flora, or purchase a past replay: https://sustainableparenting.com/workshop where you get 30 min. of learning and 30 min. of LIVE Q & A time, with replays sent afterwards.
✨ Buy a 3 session Coaching Bundle (saving you $100) - for THREE 30-min sessions 1:1 with ME, where we get right to the heart of your challenges, and give you small, powerful shifts that make a huge difference fast.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Flora McCormick (00:01):
There's this weirdness of that, something
about the nighttime, the wordsthe child use I want you, I need
you, and they're not asking fora lollipop, they're asking for
one more kiss and it's like ohyeah, it's easy to hug at that
hot string.
Oh, they're so good.
I always say I swear kids go toacting school in utero.
(00:21):
Like there is absolutely becausethey know just the thing to say
, so that you're not having yourwise mind cue.
This is a behavioral trying toget attention.
Yes, drag out bedtime.
We can convince ourselvesthey're needing us, they wanting
us.
Why on earth would I refusethat?
And then, on the reverse,though, we also are so annoyed
(00:44):
that we're not just able to haveour space and say goodnight and
have a peaceful separation,like I love you and I need to
have my time for the night.
So I find parents really caughtin that bind right.
Matthew Wellington (00:56):
Yeah, and it's difficult.
Like I before I had kids, I Ididn't necessarily appreciate a
lot of those difficulties.
Flora McCormick (01:06):
I'm Flora McCormick, licensed therapist
and parenting coach of almost 20years, here to help you really
be that calm, confident parentyou've always wanted to be, and
I'm so excited today to sharewith you this conversation with
Matthew Wellington, registeredbehavior analyst and founder of
Sleep Behaviorally, dedicated tohelping families and busy
(01:28):
professionals improve theirnight's sleep through
evidence-based strategies.
Hello and welcome to theSustainable Parenting Podcast.
Let me tell you, friend, thisplace is different.
We fill that gap between gentleparenting and harsh discipline
that's really missing to parentwith kindness and firmness at
the same time and give you theexact steps to be able to parent
(01:52):
in ways that are more realisticand effective and, for that
reason, finally feel sustainable.
Welcome, of course, if we'retalking about like we hate
(02:16):
yelling at our kids or we hategoing in this like spiral or a
bounce between gentle mom andthen monster mom, a lot of it
can be related to sleep.
Like I'm so overtired I'm notgoing to sleep when I want to,
to have connection with mypartner or just recharge time
myself, and sleep's just huge.
It's so fundamental to our kidsand us.
So I'm so glad to have yourinsight today, matthew, to help
(02:38):
us out.
Matthew Wellington (02:39):
I'm glad to be here, and it's you're
absolutely right.
Like I, have been working withfamilies for almost a decade now
and, and as a registeredbehavior analyst, as a BCBA,
found it was such a commonthread that if we saw child
behavioral issues, most likelythere were sleep issues as well.
Flora McCormick (03:05):
Yeah.
What your consequences are,what?
Your prompts are to gettingthem to pick up their shoes.
What is sleep, food and techexposure look like?
Because those are the threevitals for confident and
well-behaved kids, right?
Matthew Wellington (03:18):
Absolutely, yeah, and really, in terms of
sleep, I call it like the fivepillars of a good night's sleep
and that's really those are thefive areas that we hit.
So the first pillar is kind ofpersonalizing that sleep routine
and getting a schedule so thatthe child is getting enough
sleep, but also at the righttimes.
(03:38):
There are times where there'snot enough what we'd call sleep
pressure, and that's when yourkid is really struggling to get
to sleep, um, and they just seemto have too much energy or seem
to be really upset.
Sometimes it's that we haven'tbuilt enough of that sleep
pressure.
So really, if a kid is stillhaving a nap, being able to
(04:02):
adjust that nap, the timing ofthat nap.
So that's the first thing, kindof like thinking about that
sleep schedule.
The second is really thinkingabout that bedtime routine.
How does the child get to sleep, whether that's feeding a
(04:22):
bottle before bed, whether thatis a whole bunch of attention or
being rocked or any of thesetypes of things.
Being able to fall asleepindependently is a really
difficult thing that a childdoesn't innately know.
So that's something that weteach as well and that's one of
those other pillars, andsometimes we'll supplement
language with the use of visualsMm-hmm.
(04:43):
Yes, language with.
With the use of visuals, um,and that's an, that's an, and an
easier way to process and andunderstand information.
Flora McCormick (04:51):
They tend to be a lot more visual learners
matthew, do you have any toolsyou could share with us that
would help with that, becauseI'm I definitely always love to
give a concrete visual, umpictures that help the child and
you be on the same page ofthese types of sure I.
Matthew Wellington (05:07):
I actually have a a template visual
schedule that we use often forbedtime routines.
It could be customizable.
So it is in a word documentthat is very easily customizable
and, yeah, that that could beprinted off and used for kids.
It's just a much easier way tounderstand a sequence of events
(05:30):
or routines.
Flora McCormick (05:31):
Yeah.
Matthew Wellington (05:32):
And is a way to communicate that without a
lot of language, which we alsodon't want to do when it's close
to bedtime as well.
Flora McCormick (05:40):
Absolutely yes, I feel always less is more.
Absolutely yes, I feel alwaysless is more.
I like to call it, like thethird party, bad guy too
sometimes, because you know ifit's someone on the autism or
anxiety spectrum then having avisual, parents will say, oh,
they know what has to happen,though.
It's only like four things andyou're like, but still, if you
can just look at a chart, I mean, go in any elementary school
(06:02):
and you'll see there's a reason,there's visuals these teachers
understand.
Visuals help kids hold theinformation in their own heads
better, even if you think theyshould know it by heart.
And secondly, it makes thisthird party bad guy.
That's like if you need to makea subtle nudge or reminder,
you're not using 75 words likecome on, why haven't we done
(06:23):
that thing?
You know you're supposed to getyour jammies on and you're
always messing around and youhaven't gotten your toothbrush,
so then you're gonna have to getyour jammies.
You're gonna fight with me aboutthe right exactly versus like
pointing to the picture of thejammies and looking at them and
having that be an indicator.
Matthew Wellington (06:39):
Hey, you're missing that, yeah, okay, okay.
Pillar three is about theenvironment and optimizing
conditions for optimal sleep.
So having the temperature atthe right not too hot, not too
cold so the child is able tosleep.
Evolutionarily speaking, atnighttime the temperatures
(07:00):
cooled down, it got colder, thelight kind of went down.
So a lot of these biologicaltriggers for sleep.
So that's another thing that welook at as well, and sound as
well, being able to have a nice,quiet, calm environment.
And sometimes there needs to besomething that indicates to the
(07:20):
child hey, it is nighttime, itis bedtime right now, so we're
going to sleep.
Some of our families do thatwith, like, a white noise
machine.
Some families do it withdifferent clocks that show
different colors for differenttimes.
From a behavioral standpoint,it's about indicating to the
(07:42):
body hey, it is time for sleepright now.
Yeah, like the right cues thatgive us that sense that it's
wind down time exactly we'relooking for, uh, the term we use
in in behavioral science isbehavioral quietude, um, but
really being able to reallysettle down, like you said,
(08:03):
doing those things that are verycalm, um, very uh.
This is where we'll turn downthe lights, we'll start to read
a book, we'll maybe have bathand then like a bottle bath and
then start to wind down and havelike a book time, reading time,
time, um, maybe, and then wetend to avoid screens at this
(08:31):
point because that that is goingto kind of reignite some of
those, um, internal cues thatthat we don't want to reignite
um, and I have a question foryou about that.
Flora McCormick (08:39):
I I had a lot of families that will have kids
who struggle with that.
They're saying we try and thekid seems like they have so much
energy on that sort of runwaytowards, uh, bedtime and they
think they should run out theenergy like ramp it up, get it,
quote, get it out.
(09:00):
Yes, and my um suggestion isusually to go the opposite
direction, like your kid we'retrying to cue sleep.
If we run it out, we're cuing,it's playtime, it's action time,
and so, instead doing thingslike progressive muscle
relaxation, reading with a veryslow, deep voice that kind of
(09:22):
thing, Absolutely, and because achild often wants to play right
, and, and if a child hasn't gotany opportunity to play, um,
they might still be seeking that.
Matthew Wellington (09:36):
So what we tend to do is we like to start
off that evening routine with 20or 30 minutes of we can do
whatever you want to do.
We can play, we can do, we canhave fun, we can chase, we could
do all this.
But at the end of those 30minutes we're then going to
start out bedtime routine it'sthis.
Flora McCormick (09:54):
There's this overlap clearly between your
work of sleep and behavior.
Not only does that consistencyof routine help give what was
the word you called it Quietudebehavioral quietude.
Behavioral quietude.
So not only does it get thebody cued for relaxation, but
that consistency lets the childbe likely to resist less,
(10:19):
Because every time there's apossible new ask like out of
nowhere and I've made thismistake in the middle of bedtime
routine we go in the room andI'm like, oh my god, your room's
a mess.
Let's real quick clean upeverything on the floor and then
immediately usually I get thecue clearly from my child.
This was the wrong moment topick to throw something in there
(10:41):
and they're like what?
and they're tired and they hadno, you know, previous idea.
I was going to ask that tochange in that moment.
So the right thatpredictability of like, let's be
really cautious about, you know, if we do it a little
differently, not throwing thingsin the mix that are going to
push the challenge button,because we're all running on the
(11:05):
fumes of the end of the day,ourselves as much as the kids.
So, um, I just think of theconsistency, helping prime them
with cues and, be likely,preventing the power struggles
you can otherwise find yourselfin absolutely yes, that's
exactly it.
Matthew Wellington (11:24):
Um, yeah, and that last last bit is and
and we kind of discussed this alittle bit already but really
minimizing some of thosesleep-interfering behaviors.
And that kind of goes back towhat I have always done in my
day job as a BCBA and behavioranalyst some of those attention
seeking behaviors or maybe someof those escape behaviors hey, I
want to continue to play the.
(11:45):
So I'm going to engage in abehavior to try and continue to
play and escape that bedtimeroutine and being able to really
understand why those behaviorsmight happen, the behaviors that
interfere with sleep, and putin some strategies to kind of
(12:07):
counteract that.
Counteract that or in behavioranalysis or ABA we would say, to
put it on extinction, sometimesin a very gradual way, or maybe
teach an alternative behavior.
Especially with sleep, there isa certain time where it is time
to sleep and we don't wantthose competing behaviors, so we
(12:27):
are going to want to put thosebehaviors on extinction.
Flora McCormick (12:31):
Well, it's funny when you say it that way,
matthew, like because I thinkparents get caught in a
double-sided bind, that there'sthis weirdness of that,
something about the nighttime.
The words the child use I wantyou, I need you, and they're not
asking for a lollipop, they'reasking for one more kiss and
it's like oh yeah, it's easy.
Matthew Wellington (12:51):
They talk at that heartstring.
Flora McCormick (12:53):
Oh, they're so good.
I always say I swear kids go toacting school in utero.
Like there is absolutely becausethey know just the thing to say
, so that you're not having yourwise mind cue.
This is a behavioral trying toget attention.
Yes, drag out bedtime.
We can convince ourselvesthey're needing us, they wanting
(13:15):
us.
Why on earth would I refusethat?
And then, on the reverse,though, we also are so annoyed
that we're not just able to haveour space and say good night
and have a peaceful separation,like I love you and I need to
have my time for the night.
So I find parents really caughtin that bind right.
Matthew Wellington (13:33):
Yeah, and it's difficult.
Like I before I had kids, I Ididn't necessarily appreciate a
lot of those difficulties and inmy day job it was.
It was very much like well,this is the behavior, this is
the function of that behavior,why it's happening.
This is the strategy.
You need to be consistent and Ithink having children and being
(13:56):
at the other end of some ofthose behavioral contingencies
has made me a betterpractitioner.
Flora McCormick (14:02):
Oh, my gosh, a thousand percent.
I was teaching parentingclasses eight years before I had
my own kids and I mean theprinciples were all correct.
But, like you say, my empathyfor the challenge that comes in
holding those principles was notthere.
I didn't really get it.
Matthew Wellington (14:22):
Yeah, I know that I get home with my
daughter from daycare at gonefive.
I'm then cooking dinner or mywife is cooking dinner and we
don't have a lot of time afterdinner to actually spend time
together.
I want to spend time with herjust as much as she wants to
spend time with me, but I knowthat we both have to sleep to
(14:42):
get to be ready the next day forit to all happen again.
So minimizing that attention isan easy way with visuals.
Flora McCormick (14:54):
Yeah, and I like to reduce parents' guilt
about that and remind them thatone study that I learned about
and when I was in graduateschool for my counseling degree
said they found they weremeasuring the difference between
relationship and bonding ofstay-at-home moms versus working
moms and found it really camedown to quality over quantity.
(15:15):
And so if you're feeling thatguilt of like, but I only have
an hour and a half, maybe Ishould lay next to them for that
extra half hour to hour orwhatever.
Please know the research isthere quality over quantity.
And so if that guilt istempting you into bad habits, um
(15:37):
, release it.
It's not serving you or thechild or your relationship.
Matthew Wellington (15:42):
I love that.
I love that.
Flora McCormick (15:44):
Um well, thank you so much for all these great
tips of these five pillars andanswering some questions I've
had for you along the way,matthew, in closing, what would
you like people to know abouthow they could follow up with
you or any other resources forfollowing up on more sleep
questions they may have?
Matthew Wellington (16:01):
Yeah, so I have a website called
sleepbehaviorallycom.
That's kind of the go-to ofwhere to find me.
There's a lot of blog articleson there as well for various
different things targeting eachof these five pillars, and then
there's some resources on thereas well for parents that would
(16:23):
like to implement thisthemselves and kind of give this
a go.
But then I'm also available ifparents want some help to
implement this with a bespokeplan.
Flora McCormick (16:36):
Awesome.
Thank you so much for joiningus today.
I've learned some additionalreminders for myself and really
grateful for this conversation.
Matthew Wellington (16:45):
Thank you, it's been a pleasure.
There's this weirdness of that, something
about the nighttime, the wordsthe child use I want you, I need
you, and they're not asking fora lollipop, they're asking for
one more kiss and it's like ohyeah, it's easy to hug at that
hot string.
Oh, they're so good.
I always say I swear kids go toacting school in utero.
(00:21):
Like there is absolutely becausethey know just the thing to say
, so that you're not having yourwise mind cue.
This is a behavioral trying toget attention.
Yes, drag out bedtime.
We can convince ourselvesthey're needing us, they wanting
us.
Why on earth would I refusethat?
And then, on the reverse,though, we also are so annoyed
(00:44):
that we're not just able to haveour space and say goodnight and
have a peaceful separation,like I love you and I need to
have my time for the night.
So I find parents really caughtin that bind right.
Matthew Wellington (00:56):
Yeah, and it's difficult.
Like I before I had kids, I Ididn't necessarily appreciate a
lot of those difficulties.
Flora McCormick (01:06):
I'm Flora McCormick, licensed therapist
and parenting coach of almost 20years, here to help you really
be that calm, confident parentyou've always wanted to be, and
I'm so excited today to sharewith you this conversation with
Matthew Wellington, registeredbehavior analyst and founder of
Sleep Behaviorally, dedicated tohelping families and busy
(01:28):
professionals improve theirnight's sleep through
evidence-based strategies.
Hello and welcome to theSustainable Parenting Podcast.
Let me tell you, friend, thisplace is different.
We fill that gap between gentleparenting and harsh discipline
that's really missing to parentwith kindness and firmness at
the same time and give you theexact steps to be able to parent
(01:52):
in ways that are more realisticand effective and, for that
reason, finally feel sustainable.
Welcome, of course, if we'retalking about like we hate
(02:16):
yelling at our kids or we hategoing in this like spiral or a
bounce between gentle mom andthen monster mom, a lot of it
can be related to sleep.
Like I'm so overtired I'm notgoing to sleep when I want to,
to have connection with mypartner or just recharge time
myself, and sleep's just huge.
It's so fundamental to our kidsand us.
So I'm so glad to have yourinsight today, matthew, to help
(02:38):
us out.
Matthew Wellington (02:39):
I'm glad to be here, and it's you're
absolutely right.
Like I, have been working withfamilies for almost a decade now
and, and as a registeredbehavior analyst, as a BCBA,
found it was such a commonthread that if we saw child
behavioral issues, most likelythere were sleep issues as well.
Flora McCormick (03:05):
Yeah.
What your consequences are,what?
Your prompts are to gettingthem to pick up their shoes.
What is sleep, food and techexposure look like?
Because those are the threevitals for confident and
well-behaved kids, right?
Matthew Wellington (03:18):
Absolutely, yeah, and really, in terms of
sleep, I call it like the fivepillars of a good night's sleep
and that's really those are thefive areas that we hit.
So the first pillar is kind ofpersonalizing that sleep routine
and getting a schedule so thatthe child is getting enough
sleep, but also at the righttimes.
(03:38):
There are times where there'snot enough what we'd call sleep
pressure, and that's when yourkid is really struggling to get
to sleep, um, and they just seemto have too much energy or seem
to be really upset.
Sometimes it's that we haven'tbuilt enough of that sleep
pressure.
So really, if a kid is stillhaving a nap, being able to
(04:02):
adjust that nap, the timing ofthat nap.
So that's the first thing, kindof like thinking about that
sleep schedule.
The second is really thinkingabout that bedtime routine.
How does the child get to sleep, whether that's feeding a
(04:22):
bottle before bed, whether thatis a whole bunch of attention or
being rocked or any of thesetypes of things.
Being able to fall asleepindependently is a really
difficult thing that a childdoesn't innately know.
So that's something that weteach as well and that's one of
those other pillars, andsometimes we'll supplement
language with the use of visualsMm-hmm.
(04:43):
Yes, language with.
With the use of visuals, um,and that's an, that's an, and an
easier way to process and andunderstand information.
Flora McCormick (04:51):
They tend to be a lot more visual learners
matthew, do you have any toolsyou could share with us that
would help with that, becauseI'm I definitely always love to
give a concrete visual, umpictures that help the child and
you be on the same page ofthese types of sure I.
Matthew Wellington (05:07):
I actually have a a template visual
schedule that we use often forbedtime routines.
It could be customizable.
So it is in a word documentthat is very easily customizable
and, yeah, that that could beprinted off and used for kids.
It's just a much easier way tounderstand a sequence of events
(05:30):
or routines.
Flora McCormick (05:31):
Yeah.
Matthew Wellington (05:32):
And is a way to communicate that without a
lot of language, which we alsodon't want to do when it's close
to bedtime as well.
Flora McCormick (05:40):
Absolutely yes, I feel always less is more.
Absolutely yes, I feel alwaysless is more.
I like to call it, like thethird party, bad guy too
sometimes, because you know ifit's someone on the autism or
anxiety spectrum then having avisual, parents will say, oh,
they know what has to happen,though.
It's only like four things andyou're like, but still, if you
can just look at a chart, I mean, go in any elementary school
(06:02):
and you'll see there's a reason,there's visuals these teachers
understand.
Visuals help kids hold theinformation in their own heads
better, even if you think theyshould know it by heart.
And secondly, it makes thisthird party bad guy.
That's like if you need to makea subtle nudge or reminder,
you're not using 75 words likecome on, why haven't we done
(06:23):
that thing?
You know you're supposed to getyour jammies on and you're
always messing around and youhaven't gotten your toothbrush,
so then you're gonna have to getyour jammies.
You're gonna fight with me aboutthe right exactly versus like
pointing to the picture of thejammies and looking at them and
having that be an indicator.
Matthew Wellington (06:39):
Hey, you're missing that, yeah, okay, okay.
Pillar three is about theenvironment and optimizing
conditions for optimal sleep.
So having the temperature atthe right not too hot, not too
cold so the child is able tosleep.
Evolutionarily speaking, atnighttime the temperatures
(07:00):
cooled down, it got colder, thelight kind of went down.
So a lot of these biologicaltriggers for sleep.
So that's another thing that welook at as well, and sound as
well, being able to have a nice,quiet, calm environment.
And sometimes there needs to besomething that indicates to the
(07:20):
child hey, it is nighttime, itis bedtime right now, so we're
going to sleep.
Some of our families do thatwith, like, a white noise
machine.
Some families do it withdifferent clocks that show
different colors for differenttimes.
From a behavioral standpoint,it's about indicating to the
(07:42):
body hey, it is time for sleepright now.
Yeah, like the right cues thatgive us that sense that it's
wind down time exactly we'relooking for, uh, the term we use
in in behavioral science isbehavioral quietude, um, but
really being able to reallysettle down, like you said,
(08:03):
doing those things that are verycalm, um, very uh.
This is where we'll turn downthe lights, we'll start to read
a book, we'll maybe have bathand then like a bottle bath and
then start to wind down and havelike a book time, reading time,
time, um, maybe, and then wetend to avoid screens at this
(08:31):
point because that that is goingto kind of reignite some of
those, um, internal cues thatthat we don't want to reignite
um, and I have a question foryou about that.
Flora McCormick (08:39):
I I had a lot of families that will have kids
who struggle with that.
They're saying we try and thekid seems like they have so much
energy on that sort of runwaytowards, uh, bedtime and they
think they should run out theenergy like ramp it up, get it,
quote, get it out.
(09:00):
Yes, and my um suggestion isusually to go the opposite
direction, like your kid we'retrying to cue sleep.
If we run it out, we're cuing,it's playtime, it's action time,
and so, instead doing thingslike progressive muscle
relaxation, reading with a veryslow, deep voice that kind of
(09:22):
thing, Absolutely, and because achild often wants to play right
, and, and if a child hasn't gotany opportunity to play, um,
they might still be seeking that.
Matthew Wellington (09:36):
So what we tend to do is we like to start
off that evening routine with 20or 30 minutes of we can do
whatever you want to do.
We can play, we can do, we canhave fun, we can chase, we could
do all this.
But at the end of those 30minutes we're then going to
start out bedtime routine it'sthis.
Flora McCormick (09:54):
There's this overlap clearly between your
work of sleep and behavior.
Not only does that consistencyof routine help give what was
the word you called it Quietudebehavioral quietude.
Behavioral quietude.
So not only does it get thebody cued for relaxation, but
that consistency lets the childbe likely to resist less,
(10:19):
Because every time there's apossible new ask like out of
nowhere and I've made thismistake in the middle of bedtime
routine we go in the room andI'm like, oh my god, your room's
a mess.
Let's real quick clean upeverything on the floor and then
immediately usually I get thecue clearly from my child.
This was the wrong moment topick to throw something in there
(10:41):
and they're like what?
and they're tired and they hadno, you know, previous idea.
I was going to ask that tochange in that moment.
So the right thatpredictability of like, let's be
really cautious about, you know, if we do it a little
differently, not throwing thingsin the mix that are going to
push the challenge button,because we're all running on the
(11:05):
fumes of the end of the day,ourselves as much as the kids.
So, um, I just think of theconsistency, helping prime them
with cues and, be likely,preventing the power struggles
you can otherwise find yourselfin absolutely yes, that's
exactly it.
Matthew Wellington (11:24):
Um, yeah, and that last last bit is and
and we kind of discussed this alittle bit already but really
minimizing some of thosesleep-interfering behaviors.
And that kind of goes back towhat I have always done in my
day job as a BCBA and behavioranalyst some of those attention
seeking behaviors or maybe someof those escape behaviors hey, I
want to continue to play the.
(11:45):
So I'm going to engage in abehavior to try and continue to
play and escape that bedtimeroutine and being able to really
understand why those behaviorsmight happen, the behaviors that
interfere with sleep, and putin some strategies to kind of
(12:07):
counteract that.
Counteract that or in behavioranalysis or ABA we would say, to
put it on extinction, sometimesin a very gradual way, or maybe
teach an alternative behavior.
Especially with sleep, there isa certain time where it is time
to sleep and we don't wantthose competing behaviors, so we
(12:27):
are going to want to put thosebehaviors on extinction.
Flora McCormick (12:31):
Well, it's funny when you say it that way,
matthew, like because I thinkparents get caught in a
double-sided bind, that there'sthis weirdness of that,
something about the nighttime.
The words the child use I wantyou, I need you, and they're not
asking for a lollipop, they'reasking for one more kiss and
it's like oh yeah, it's easy.
Matthew Wellington (12:51):
They talk at that heartstring.
Flora McCormick (12:53):
Oh, they're so good.
I always say I swear kids go toacting school in utero.
Like there is absolutely becausethey know just the thing to say
, so that you're not having yourwise mind cue.
This is a behavioral trying toget attention.
Yes, drag out bedtime.
We can convince ourselvesthey're needing us, they wanting
(13:15):
us.
Why on earth would I refusethat?
And then, on the reverse,though, we also are so annoyed
that we're not just able to haveour space and say good night
and have a peaceful separation,like I love you and I need to
have my time for the night.
So I find parents really caughtin that bind right.
Matthew Wellington (13:33):
Yeah, and it's difficult.
Like I before I had kids, I Ididn't necessarily appreciate a
lot of those difficulties and inmy day job it was.
It was very much like well,this is the behavior, this is
the function of that behavior,why it's happening.
This is the strategy.
You need to be consistent and Ithink having children and being
(13:56):
at the other end of some ofthose behavioral contingencies
has made me a betterpractitioner.
Flora McCormick (14:02):
Oh, my gosh, a thousand percent.
I was teaching parentingclasses eight years before I had
my own kids and I mean theprinciples were all correct.
But, like you say, my empathyfor the challenge that comes in
holding those principles was notthere.
I didn't really get it.
Matthew Wellington (14:22):
Yeah, I know that I get home with my
daughter from daycare at gonefive.
I'm then cooking dinner or mywife is cooking dinner and we
don't have a lot of time afterdinner to actually spend time
together.
I want to spend time with herjust as much as she wants to
spend time with me, but I knowthat we both have to sleep to
(14:42):
get to be ready the next day forit to all happen again.
So minimizing that attention isan easy way with visuals.
Flora McCormick (14:54):
Yeah, and I like to reduce parents' guilt
about that and remind them thatone study that I learned about
and when I was in graduateschool for my counseling degree
said they found they weremeasuring the difference between
relationship and bonding ofstay-at-home moms versus working
moms and found it really camedown to quality over quantity.
(15:15):
And so if you're feeling thatguilt of like, but I only have
an hour and a half, maybe Ishould lay next to them for that
extra half hour to hour orwhatever.
Please know the research isthere quality over quantity.
And so if that guilt istempting you into bad habits, um
(15:37):
, release it.
It's not serving you or thechild or your relationship.
Matthew Wellington (15:42):
I love that.
I love that.
Flora McCormick (15:44):
Um well, thank you so much for all these great
tips of these five pillars andanswering some questions I've
had for you along the way,matthew, in closing, what would
you like people to know abouthow they could follow up with
you or any other resources forfollowing up on more sleep
questions they may have?
Matthew Wellington (16:01):
Yeah, so I have a website called
sleepbehaviorallycom.
That's kind of the go-to ofwhere to find me.
There's a lot of blog articleson there as well for various
different things targeting eachof these five pillars, and then
there's some resources on thereas well for parents that would
(16:23):
like to implement thisthemselves and kind of give this
a go.
But then I'm also available ifparents want some help to
implement this with a bespokeplan.
Flora McCormick (16:36):
Awesome.
Thank you so much for joiningus today.
I've learned some additionalreminders for myself and really
grateful for this conversation.
Matthew Wellington (16:45):
Thank you, it's been a pleasure.
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