132. How to get Kids to Sleep in Their Own Beds, Even if They Beg You to Stay | Karen Winter

If nighttime currently feels like a hostage situation — tiny footsteps down the hall, endless requests for “one more kiss,” or a child who can only fall asleep if you stay glued to the side of their bed — you are so not alone. 

So many loving parents find themselves exhausted by bedtime battles, thinking, “I cannot have this battle right now. I’m done. I’m exhausted. Why does this have to be so hard?!”

In this episode, Flora welcomes Certified Pediatric Sleep Consultant Karen Winter of Winter Slumber: https://winterslumber.com/ to bring relief, clarity, and a fresh dose of hope. 

Through the lens of kind and firm parenting, we explore practical strategies that maintain connection while helping kids learn the life skill of sleeping in their own space.  Why? Because at Sustainable Parenting we believe in guiding kids to become confident sleepers, while also having a loving bond.  We believe you don’t have to turn yourself into a prisoner of nighttime wake-ups, in order to be a “good mom”.

By the time you finish listening, you will discover:

• How to respond when your child pops out of bed again (and again).

• Loving boundaries that end the cycle of “one more drink…” requests.

• A step-by-step approach for kids who rely on you lying next to them to fall asleep.

• Tools for discipline during night wake-ups, without yelling OR giving in.

• How night-time wake-ups are actually a great space to practice growing new skills for raising a resilient kid.

This conversation is your ticket to being the calm, confident parent you really want to be (even at the end of the day). 

Freedom from bedtime battles is possible, and you do not have to do it alone. Tune in to learn how even gentle parenting can have firm boundaries, so everyone can finally rest easy. 🌙✨ You can give comfort without giving up your evenings. You can offer reassurance while still guiding your child toward independence. You can support emotional needs without sacrificing your own sleep.

✨Want more?

✨ Schedule a FREE 20 min clarity call with Sustainable Parenting, so we can answer any questions you may have. Together, we'll make a plan for your best next steps to have more calm & confidence in parenting - while having kids that listen!:)

✨NEW✨ pdfs and short video lessons on Respect, Bedtimes, Power Struggles and More: ON ETSY!

✨ Download the FREE pdf. on getting kids to listen, for strategies that take you out of the "gentle mom - monster mom" cycle, with effective positive parenting strategies.

✨ Sign up for an upcoming LIVE ONLINE workshop with Flora, or purchase a past replay: https://sustainableparenting.com/workshop where you get 30 min. of learning and 30 min. of LIVE Q & A time, with replays sent afterwards.

✨ Buy a 3 session Coaching Bundle (saving you $100) - for THREE 30-min sessions 1:1 with ME, where we get right to the heart of your challenges, and give you small, powerful shifts that make a huge difference f...

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
If your kid is two, five, seven, still waking up,
there are solutions.
If you want to make a change,it's really possible.
In this episode, we talk with asleep coach who shares the key
tips that can help your childstay asleep.
From sleepless to sweet dreams,helping kids stay in their own
beds.

(00:20):
Friend, I'm Flora McCormick,licensed therapist, parenting
coach, and early childhoodmental health consultant with
almost 20 years' experiencehelping families like yours.
Hello and welcome to theSustainable Parenting Podcast.
Let me tell you, friend, thisplace is different.
We fill that gap between gentleparenting and harsh discipline
that's really missing to parentwith kindness and firmness at

(00:43):
the same time.
And give you the exact steps tobe able to parent in ways that
are more realistic andeffective.
And for that reason, finallyfeel sustainable.
Welcome.

(01:05):
If you'd like to leave a reviewto share how sustainable
parenting has been impactingyour life, I would be so
grateful.
It helps others to know what'spossible in their families too.
And you can do so easily byscrolling to the bottom of all
episodes, clicking on that fifthstar, and leaving a comment.
Also be sure you subscribe tothe podcast so that you
regularly get the downloads eachweek and don't miss a single

(01:28):
tool and strategy to beparenting with more kindness and
firmness at the same time.
So parenting finally feelssustainable.
One of the top questions that Iam always getting is how do I
get my kid to quit coming in myroom in the middle of the night
or me having to sleep next to mychild in order for them to go

(01:50):
back to sleep in the middle ofthe night.
And we're so lucky today to haveKaren Winter here with us.
Karen is a certified pediatricsleep consultant and the founder
of Winter Slumber, which playson her last name, where she
helps parents of toddl andpreschoolers, that sweet spot of
age two through seven, move fromexhaustion to restful nights.

(02:11):
She has over 20 years ofexperience in early childhood
education and really specializesin tackling those big sleep
struggles of early childhood,bedtime battles, overnight
wakes, and transitions out ofnaps.
So we're so, so glad to haveyou.
And she's also a mom.
So Hi, I'm glad to be here.

(02:32):
Yes.
And let's dive in.
I mean, I can think of a couplejust the other day that I was
talking with that was literallyboth in tears, the husband and
wife, because it had been monthsof struggle where their
four-year-old was coming intotheir room in the middle of the
night and having all kinds ofexcuses.
I need another drink of water, Ineed a teddy bear, I want just

(02:54):
one more hug.
And the parents triedeverything, tried talking with
her, soothing her back to sleep,sometimes like um getting angry
because the one parent um wouldend up getting frustrated that
the softer approach wasn'tworking and then sort of be
like, go to bed, you are notallowed to do this.
This is not what four-year-oldsdo.

(03:15):
Understandably, right?
So those two sides of overlygentle, overly harsh, neither
one of them was loving wherethey were ending up and that it
wasn't working.
But, you know, the only otheroption felt like laying next to
her, which was then kind offeeding the whole cycle,
continuing.
So I would love to get yourideas on what you do when

(03:39):
families bring a problem likethis to you.

SPEAKER_01 (03:41):
Yeah, absolutely.
And it's so common, especiallyin, you know, as I said, this
this two to seven-year-old agegroup where um they're kind of
exploring boundaries, they knowthat their behavior can change
um responses.
And so I think really forparents, and I'm sure you
provided this, is having thatplan of action.
Like, what can we come togetheron in the middle of the night

(04:04):
when we're both exhausted andjust want to sleep?
Uh, you know, like what are wesupposed to do?
And as you said, a lot of timesit's either or where it's I'm
just gonna shut this down, goback to bed.
Or I know a lot of parents, youknow, they walk them back to bed
a million trillion timesovernight.
Other times it's I'm just gonnalay here.
And so what I like to, you know,tell families that I work with

(04:26):
is sometimes we forget this is askill set that we're teaching.
And so with teaching a skillset, we don't just, you know, I
I relate it back to riding abike.
We don't just say like go andfigure it out, right?
Like to shut it down, or justlike go back to bed.
Right because they're not surewhat to do.
They're awake.
We all wake up overnight, we allwake up between sleep cycles.

(04:47):
And their go-to now, even if ithadn't been, is I'm gonna come
and find mom and dad.
Um, or I'm gonna have mom anddad lay with me, or whatever
that is.
And that's what they've thenstarted to get into a habit of
this is what I need in order tofall back to sleep.
Um, and so going back to thatbike analogy, we really need to

(05:11):
teach the skill set, give someinitial support, and then start
to strip away.
Because if we're always holdingon to that bike, they're never
gonna learn what to do, right?
I mean, if you're just gonna laynext to them or they're gonna
lay next to you and bad, and ifultimately that's not what you
want, they're not gonna learnwhat to do.
So, what I really like to helpparents with is to come up with

(05:33):
a three-step overnight wakeplan, is what I call it.
And that's you're talking withthe kiddo about what are three
things you can do when you wakeup overnight.
That doesn't include coming andgetting mom and dad or mom and
dad sleeping in your bed.
And you talk about this duringthe day when they're not
exhausted.
Um and you know, they canrole-play it during the day.
You can make it playful, but alot of times it's as simple as

(05:55):
I'm gonna pull up my blanket,I'm gonna hug my teddy bear, and
I'm gonna take three deep bellybreaths.
Um, you know, or or just closemy eyes, whatever it might be.
And you kind of have them helpyou, although you're guiding it,
help you come up with this planso they feel like they're a part
of this, that you're not tellingthem this is what you have to
do.
Um, and I've even had clientslike they turn it into a song

(06:18):
and they're singing this songbefore they go to bed, or
however you can make itthankful.

SPEAKER_00 (06:22):
I love that a song or a little social story that
has stick figures and you'vekind of made that, or you have a
little rhyme or something.
Like those things always havestuck with my kids, like with
getting out the door.
We started this like shoes on,coats on, out the door, shoes
on, coats on, out the door.
And it like then becomes thismantra for them.

(06:43):
And so yeah, I could see.
I've never thought ofincorporating that into that
what those three pieces are thechild is gonna do to soothe
themself back to sleep.
Love that so much.

SPEAKER_01 (06:53):
Yeah, absolutely.
And a lot of times parents willbe like, well, we'll tell them
how to do this, but they're notgonna do it.
And again, it's well, yes, youhave to slowly phase yourself
out.
So initially you're gonna walkthem back, you're gonna do that
little chant, you're gonnaremind them, you know, what
those three steps are, help themwith it.
And then the next night youmight walk to the middle of the
room and say, Hey, rememberthis?

(07:14):
Go ahead, do it.
And then the next night you'rejust gonna walk to the doorway.
So you're slowly kind ofbuilding yourself out of that,
and they're creating a newhabit.
And, you know, just as you said,with getting your shoes and coat
on to get out the door, it's ahabit that you have to create
and it's gonna take a little bitof time.
So it's not an instant fix, butI mean, within within a week,

(07:36):
two weeks, they should be ableto wake up and do it.
And it's super exciting whenparents still have like that
monitor and they can see themwake up and do it.
Um, and and it's something thatis going to happen.
And I'll backtrack just slightlyin saying that the first step
would be to make sure they canfall asleep at bedtime too,
without you.
Because oftentimes if you'relaying there with them at

(07:58):
bedtime, that's just the onlyway they know how to fall
asleep.
So you can do that same thing atbedtime to help with those
overnight wakes.

SPEAKER_00 (08:07):
And let me tell you, this was one of the biggest ahas
I had when I started learningthings from you and following
your information about sleeptraining and sleep support was
how a child falls asleep is howthey are gonna want to fall back
asleep.
And that may seem super simple,but I can't tell you the number

(08:27):
of parents that I've shared thatwith that have been like, oh,
like that's like a hugemind-blowing awareness.
Like, oh yeah, I hadn'tconnected the dots of those two
things.
And so yeah, the habit if theycan't fall asleep without you,
they're not gonna be able tofall back asleep without you

(08:48):
laying next to them.
Um, so yeah, backing up to that,what do you do to shift that
pattern then?

SPEAKER_01 (08:55):
Yeah, absolutely.
And like you said, when I firstbecame certified, that too was
to me, because I had struggledwith sleep with my kiddo when
she was a baby.
And I'm like, oh my gosh, thatmakes so much sense.
And there's a term that sayssleep association.
So if you hear that, you hearpeople, that's what it is.
It's how they fall asleep atbedtime is what they associate

(09:15):
with this is how I sleep.
And so when they're waking upovernight, that's what they're
looking for.
So a lot of times the kiddosthat I work with are usually bed
sleepers, um, or you know, atthat age where they have a lot
of stamina.
And so saying goodnight andleaving often leads to a lot of
crying and a lot of tantruming.

(09:37):
And so I I often find with thisage, again, phasing yourself out
over a week time or two weekstime is going to really help
them build their confidence.
They're going to um learn thatskill set.
And so oftentimes it's ratherthan laying with them in bed,
you're gonna start sitting in achair next to their bed at

(09:58):
bedtime.
And then after a couple nightsof that, you can sit in the
middle of the room and a couplenights after.
So you're just slowly phasingyourself out.
They're learning, they'rebuilding that confidence, and
you know, you're showing thatI'm gonna stick to this.
And that's what you would dothen overnight too.
But once they have that skillset and you're able to say,
right, good night, see you inthe morning.

(10:19):
There might be a little back andforth, right?
There might be a littlestalling.
But once they can fall asleep atnight, then that's where that
three-step overnight plan canreally make the difference.

SPEAKER_00 (10:30):
I love this thought of teaching them how do they,
you know, their little plan ofthree things they're gonna do to
be able to fall back asleepwithout needing to come in your
room.
I just want to ask a like uhdevil's advocate question
because I know this washappening for this family.
Like you said, we're talkingkids that can get out of their
bed, walk down the hallway.

(10:52):
And so, what do you suggest whenthey're still coming to you in
the middle of the night?
And then it's just practice,practice, practice, or is there
anything else important in thatmix?

SPEAKER_01 (11:02):
You have to have the understanding that that habit of
coming and getting you is inplace.
And so now it's reteaching andrelearning and unwinding that
habit and replacing it withsomething different.
And I forget what the statisticis, but it takes like 30 to 60
days to create a habit orsomething like that.
Like it's massive.
Yeah, it's not gonna take youthat long to build this habit.

(11:26):
Um, usually, like I said, maybetwo weeks.
Um, but it is, it's a lot ofokay, she woke up, she came to
get me, I'm gonna walk her backon this first night, first night
of implementation.
I'm gonna help her with thosethree steps, uh, remind her of
those three steps, and then I'mgonna go back to bed.
She's probably gonna come getyou again.
You're gonna do the same thingagain for that first night.

(11:48):
But then that second night, shegot that practice.
She understands they're reallyholding this boundary.
They're really gonna walk meback every single night and tell
me my plan every single night.
And I tell parents, like, youare gonna feel like a broken
record, yeah, but that's okaybecause that's gonna provide
safety and confidence to thatchild where they're meaning what

(12:09):
they're saying and they'refollowing through.

SPEAKER_00 (12:11):
I I think also probably it's helpful when
parents can anticipate there'slikely gonna be like what we
clinically call an extinctionburst, or in like regular terms,
we call the kick-the-vendingmachine response, like, wait a
minute, I thought I could pushthis button and get a candy bar.
Um, that and just being preparedfor that.
That doesn't mean it's notworking.

(12:32):
It doesn't mean it's not gonnabe able to be a habit we shift.
It just means that's a verynormal reaction when something's
gone one direction and you'rechanging it, that there's a
little resistance and that canget bigger before it gets
smaller.

SPEAKER_01 (12:46):
Yes, absolutely.
I'm glad you brought that upbecause that usually happens
where it's like the first couplenights are good and parents are
excited, and then it's like, ohmy gosh, last night it was it
was not what it had.
Sometimes worse.
Yes.
And and again, you know, I tellthe parents that's good, it's
good as long as the parentsfollow through, right?
She's now learned that no matterwhat I'm doing, I love the

(13:08):
vending machine image.
Um, it's nothing shifting, youknow.
And then it usually does geteasier after that, and the
follow-through happens and andthe confidence.
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (13:19):
This comes back to, I know you and I, Karen, have
talked several times about theoverlap between parent coaching
and learning around kind of firmdiscipline and overnight sleep.
Um, and so I guess I also amwondering about what do you do
to help parents that are likeyou they have some guilt that
even though they know they'reteaching good habits, there's

(13:40):
like, but boy, those kids canpull out all the stops of things
that wrench on your heart.
Um, they don't just say, Mom,I'd like to stall bedtime.
No, they say things like, butI'm gonna miss you and I want
you, right?

SPEAKER_01 (13:56):
Like, yes.
Oh, yeah, they know how to pullon those heart strings.
You're absolutely right.
And I think having some scriptsand some things to pull out is
always helpful too, because whenwhen you're emotional, and even
if it's a good emotional, you'relike, oh my gosh, it's so cute.
Of course I'll lay with you for15 more minutes or you know,
whatever it is.

(14:17):
Having that script is gonna bereally helpful for you and for
the child because again, thenthey're going to understand,
gosh, she always responds withthat.
And you know, and it could be, Ilove you so much and I love
snuggling with you too.
And we had our snuggle timetomorrow during the day.
We can have more.
I'll see you in the morning.
You know, uh, just validatingthat, like, yes, I would love to

(14:41):
snuggle with you too, but weneed to sleep right now.
It's time to sleep.
And I think that helps parentstoo, where you know, they're
like, Well, am I ruining likeour attachment?
Am I you know, am I not meetingtheir needs?
Am I those kinds of things thatyou know that guilt comes in?
And it's you spent a whole dayfilling, fulfilling those needs,
and you know, as long as youare, but most parents are, and

(15:05):
and connecting with them, andthat's what that bedtime routine
is for, is connection.
And so just remind yourself thatyes, it's hard because it's that
ultimate separation at bedtimeif that's what you're working
towards, but you've spent somany hours loving on them and
spending time with them thatthis bit of time where you're
apart is not going to hinderanything.

(15:27):
And if anything, it's going tohelp you because I know for a
fact I can't sleep well when mychild's in bed with me.
And then when I don't sleepwell, my days don't go well.

SPEAKER_00 (15:37):
So yeah, and when you're in these sort of patterns
where you feel almost like heldhostage by this whole
negotiation process and notsleeping well, you start
resenting your kid.
I mean, let's like like thesoftest version is you're tired
and you're not as good of a momthat way.
Harshest version version, whichI've seen in myself and is real

(15:58):
for many people, is I'm startingto not even like my kid because
this is infuriating and I'mexhausted and I need my sleep.
And so, yeah, to preserve yourrelationship with your kid,
there's a value to doing thishard thing.
So, I guess in summary, Karen,um, I have gained so much and

(16:20):
shared so much with my clientsfrom your resources.
One of them that I love the bestthat I would love to suggest to
our um listeners is yourovernight wake PDF.
Um, can you just tell us alittle bit about what someone
would get if they purchased that$9 item or how else they could
follow up with you?

SPEAKER_01 (16:40):
Most of those you can find at my website, which is
winterslumber.com.
Um, and then within my content,both on Facebook and Instagram,
which is at winterslumber sleep,uh, you'll be able to find
information about my toolkitsand other freebies that I offer
to families.

SPEAKER_00 (16:55):
Awesome.
Karen, thank you for providingus hope here that sleep
deprivation doesn't have to bethe new norm.
Thank you so much for thesestrategies and for the resource
of knowing we can reach outmore.