September 6, 2023 • 39 mins
Ugandan sports currently grapples with a complex network of interconnected challenges, including severe financial constraints, persistent mismanagement issues, a significant talent drain, and the undeniable impacts of climate change. The question is: how can their sports improve and develop talent without further contributing to the climate crisis?
Diving into this question with us is Sharon Muzaki, a budding environmental journalist and sports fan, in Kampala. Of course, such a discussion begs the subsequent question: is it even fair to expect a nation, that has contributed so little to the climate crisis, to include such considerations into the sporting growth model?
There is no simple solution, but, speaking from both lived experiences and observations, Sharon gives us her preservative which informs a much better understanding of the problem - a problem is crying out for further consideration from the relevant stakeholders.
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or contact us at: benmole@sustainingsport.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ben (00:11):
Welcome back to the sustaining sport podcast.
In today's episode, we arejoined by Sharon Muzaki, a
budding environmental journalistand sports fan in Kampala.
There is a web ofinterconnected issues facing
Ugandan sport at the moment,from very limited funds to
repeated mismanagement, and froma brain drain on talent to the
(00:31):
undeniable effects of climatechange.
The question is how can Ugandaimprove its sport and develop
talent without furthercontributing to the climate
crisis, something Sharon and Idive right into, of course?
Such a discussion begs thesubsequent question is it even
fair to expect a nation who hascontributed so little to the
climate crisis to include suchconsiderations into their sport
(00:53):
and growth model?
Once again, we do our best toexplore this as far as we can.
This topic is particularlyrelevant and important to me due
to a special announcement I ameager to make to you at the end
of this episode, so I encourageyou to listen the whole way
through and without further ado.
Here is Sharon Muzaki on thestate of sport, particularly
football, and sustainability inUganda.
(01:16):
Welcome, sharon, to thesustaining sport podcast.
Sharon (01:29):
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you so much,
Benjamin.
Ben (01:33):
You're so welcome.
How did you get into this spaceof sustainability, and
particularly sustainability andsport?
Sharon (01:40):
When I did finish my university in 2019, after I got
done with my bachelor's degree.
I have been someone who hasbeen watching football, to be
specific, for some time with mybrothers when I was growing up,
so it has always been myinterest at some point.
So after university, I did jointhe local sports here, where I
(02:04):
was doing some writing butbasically doing the social media
work with.
The website is called Football256, which was covering the
local sports around.
So as time went by, I did jointhe climate space after doing my
very first environment trainingin 2021.
(02:28):
So that's how I got to connectwith climate and sport, so I do
understand both.
Ben (02:35):
Very interesting.
It sounds like you almost tookboth sectors independently and
now you've brought them together, which is really exciting.
Sharon (02:42):
Yes, I did take them independently At first.
I started with I actually didpresentation at some point on TV
.
That's how interesting it wasand I'm really so much into
football so it's just sointeresting that I'm a bit busy
that I try not to put so much.
You know, football is the wholething.
It can really take you upbecause of work here and there,
(03:05):
but I really do understand thatsport has been football, to be
specific.
With others I do know I followhere and there, but with
football, especially theEuropean football and the UK,
Interesting.
Ben (03:20):
So would you say you're more of a fan of European
football compared to, like,ugandan football?
Sharon (03:26):
Yes, now that the Premier League, the Liga, the
Ligue 1 really does take me upat some point, but still, I do
follow the Ugandan sports.
Once in a while I do attend thefootball events, especially
(03:47):
when we have also our big clubs.
Surprisingly, there is the KSAfor the Kampala Cactus City,
there is Vitas Football Club, sowhen those two are trying to go
, when they're having a match,it is always interesting to come
around and watch.
Ben (04:08):
Now that makes sense.
So then tell me what is thestate of sustainability in sport
within Ugandan sport, becauseyou said you're still attending
matches occasionally.
Do the teams have anyunderstanding of their impact?
The fans think about it at all?
Sharon (04:25):
I will strongly say no, not at all.
I cannot tell you that if wedid ask the president of Puffa
that is our football body I donot think that at some point he
has even thought about it.
So I will strongly say no.
Maybe if I do back up I cantell you no, I do not think they
(04:46):
really do understand the wholetopic.
Ben (04:50):
And what do you think the best strategy would be to try
and raise awareness for thiskind of thing or encourage
people to think about their ownimpact and the impact of their
activities.
Sharon (05:02):
I think that if you're an independent NGO and try to
partner with this, you knoweverything starts with awareness
trying to come around and sellthe idea and really try to
inform them of what is going onin the country, going in and
around the world.
So I think that is when maybethey would take interest, but I
(05:24):
haven't seen any event of a sortor an idea.
To be honest, when you look atUganda, basically the Ugandan
sport at most is still true Idon't know the word I can use to
describe it we are pollutingthe environment, or maybe we did
(05:46):
have a sports stadium beingconstructed in wetlands or
training ground, something witha sort.
But Uganda, as Uganda, thecountry you can imagine we are
doing coasting of our footballclubs outside Uganda, sorry,
football matches.
So that shows you the level weare at.
Ben (06:07):
And what do you think the big issues are?
I mean, you just mentioned areally interesting one around
like the wetlands and wheresports infrastructure is
constructed.
Do you think that's the biggestone?
Is it maybe travel?
Because I think definitely inEuropean sports, the travel is
the most unsustainable elementof it.
Sharon (06:24):
It goes back to the leaders that we do have.
I think they are not payingrotation to eat, but I have seen
football matches in Uganda,here them flooding and they are
failing to play and they havecancelled so many matches
because of the floods in Pampalahere.
So it shows you that theeffects are there and they are
(06:49):
really visible.
But it goes back to our leaders.
They are not just payingattention and for other reasons,
being political, that all thismaybe will just be passing by.
They are there.
They are not just payingattention to football pitches
though flooding, meaning it isin a space that wasn't meant to
(07:13):
be there.
Ben (07:13):
Yes, that's an absolutely fascinating point that they are
choosing to design stadiums orpitches or anything in places
that are not only not suitablebut then subsequently very
vulnerable to climate changeconsequences.
Sharon (07:29):
Yes, because in the climate change training that
I've had and on the waterfront,if you ever reclaim a place that
is not meant to be used for anyother thing, at some point the
water will already come backbecause that is the place for
its lodging.
So the effect will not bevisible there and then, but it's
(07:54):
a recurring thing.
Ben (07:57):
Yes, no, I agree.
I think that's a very goodpoint.
Do you think it becomes anissue of budget, as in if there
was a bigger budget, they couldbuild better infrastructure, or
do you think it is just maybeshort-sighted decision-making or
people trying to make quickdecisions?
Sharon (08:13):
With what I know is for far is an independent body.
I will not say it's the budget.
Yes, the budget side is onlythat the government allocates
the less funds.
They do say the funds areallocated to them.
(08:33):
The budget is never enough,because I can tell you in Uganda
, here you will have a footballplayer earning less than I don't
know how much a dollar is interms of fund money.
But okay, let me just take itin general that if you did an
(08:53):
interview on one of thefootballers having playing from
one of the leagues below youknow they are this first team
that will take months withoutbeing paid.
So that is why I can tell youthat in African football so many
footballers do run away to gofor we call it pro football, all
(09:15):
professional football in searchfor a better job or a better
pay outside, even when they arenot ready, because at the end of
the day they do end up thereand fail the tests.
Then again they are forced tobe back here so they go
prematurely.
(09:35):
So I will not say it's thebudget thing, but the government
here hasn't given a lot ofattention to the sports here.
We have our Uganda cranesfailing to go for matches
because they do not have funds.
So a month back we did have thechic cranes that is, the
(09:55):
football team, going for a sportin South Africa that was
netball, and they are beingstranded at the airport.
So it really shows you howUganda, the Ugandan government,
because if it is full fight itis supposed to be in touch with
the government.
So I do not know whether it'sthe embezzlement of funds within
(10:17):
the body and things are notmoving the way they are supposed
to be conducted.
So there is negligence of thegovernment and the people that
we do that work in this bodythat takes the sport around
Uganda and not is doing theright work.
Ben (10:36):
So many interesting points you raised there around national
bodies, embezzlementfascinating and unfortunately it
does not seem to be uncommonacross African sports.
I would like to come back to,maybe, issues of corruption in a
bit, but let's start off with,as you described, the players.
What do you make of most ofthese players?
(10:56):
I have noticed thisparticularly in women's football
, that they all go to the, atleast from Southern Africa.
They all go to the USA if theycan, because that is where the
money is.
Do you think that is a problemin the long term for the actual
country itself, that theseplayers go overseas and of
course sometimes they come back,but sometimes they don't or do
you see it as just a good way toimprove the sport on someone
(11:19):
else's resources?
I guess?
Sharon (11:23):
Yes, we have seen boxers , those doing the boxing sport.
Not only the boxing sport, butthere are so many of them.
When they do get the chance ofgoing to the USA, going to the
UK, to those countries, thatthey feel they would get a
better pay or a better lifeahead.
(11:43):
You know, the next thing youhear is a report or in news this
player has disappeared fromthis country.
You know, they leave the campsso early and they get to just
seek refugee.
Such things have been going on.
By now so many have disappearedfrom USA, from Germany, from all
(12:10):
those countries that they feelthey can get a better pay than
Uganda here.
So there are so many and allthat goes back to poor
management this side and a lotof embassies, of mental funds.
You know, because, as sport,the way we see the players in
England and wherever fromcountries like that, how they
(12:31):
are being paid, to be honest,for a sports person should be
doing better than me, but you'llfind a sports person here and
me and ordinary Sharon doingsome work.
I'm better than the profootballer here.
So that's how it ends up.
Ben (12:48):
Yes, and those players you mentioned who've gone all over
the seas, do they ever come back, or do they send money back or
anything?
Or once they get a way out,they often stay out.
Sharon (13:00):
Of course, most of them never look back.
The only player I have seen I'msure you know him if you follow
the bit of Ugandan sport he'scalled Denso Nyango.
That is the only footballerthat I've seen who is trying to
come back and he's trying to doit from his village.
(13:22):
He has a football academy thatis trying to come up, but to be
that is the only person who hastried coming up and trying to
say that oh yes, maybe I'veearned this from this country.
I can come back and develop mycountry.
Ben (13:37):
And that's frustrating because of course the overseas
country inevitably then benefitsfrom that talent, maybe down
the line, and I've even seen ithappen across generations, and
the example I give he comes upon this podcast a lot.
But D Valkariegi, his dad wasKenyan and his dad moved from
Kenya to Belgium to playfootball, obviously settled
(13:58):
there, had a child in Belgium,and then D Valkariegi now plays
international football forBelgium.
So that's a big shame.
Yeah, for the talent pool, Iguess, but on the other hand, of
course these overseas countriesdo have the infrastructure and
the coaching et cetera.
But then it becomes a questionof how do we improve that
situation in Uganda?
Sharon (14:20):
Exactly, exactly, yes, the point we just mentioned.
There are so many Africanplayers in Belgium there are so
many.
Even in Colombia.
Here we have the Sanchez fromTottenham, hottispar, there are
so many.
So, at the end of the day, inUganda, here I'm telling you the
fact that so many players havefailed the test, even with a
(14:43):
child, that you will see who hasthe talent.
But once they leave the countryto just go to the nearest, they
would not take a full seasonthere.
And even if they took a fullseason, not so many will be
playing.
Because for you to show that,yes, you have the talent and
(15:04):
they can be able to use you, youshould be playing on the first
team to have to prove that youknow what.
I know this, but here we do nothave the infrastructures, the
treatment that either you seethe players outside getting.
It isn't here.
So it is upon a player to takecare of himself.
I have my brother who is agoalkeeper.
(15:25):
He was a goalkeeper from one ofthose that we see that there
were big clubs around here.
So he got to get a knee injurythat needed an operation, but I
can tell you it took him oneyear of not getting operated and
now it is a family his familythat took care of the surgery
treatment.
So it shows you that if theyare not doing the basics, I do
(15:50):
not think they will even thinkof sustainability, climate
change, to be honest.
Ben (15:56):
Yes, and I was going to come to that point actually.
Next, I mean, in a world whereit does seem like there's a lot
of corruption going on at thehighest levels, but also a lack
of money filtering down to the,as you say, even the salary of
players across many sports, whathope do we have to incorporate
certain sustainability protocolsinto the way we do sport?
(16:17):
I can't imagine you're veryoptimistic.
Sharon (16:21):
I think that this all should come up.
How can it even be possible orhow can it happen?
We, with the reporters.
Now, like me, if you starttapping a few of those topics,
it creates a way and you know,most people do not know the
importance of generalists.
You know, you do go write astory, go for an interview from
(16:43):
someone and they do ask you nowyou're writing this.
How is it going to help?
So my answer to them already isyou know, every time I come to
your office inquiring ofsomething or why this is not
moving on, well, of course thatis already a way and it is
already an indication of, yes,maybe you're not doing something
(17:06):
right or you need to wake upand do this.
So I think it should start fromus, the reporters, which not so
many, by the way.
Many are doing the sportswriting, but of course they are
doing the usual reporting onfootball.
They aren't looking at thisside, so they are not so many.
So I think it should start withthe reporters.
(17:28):
Of course the government shouldcome in.
We have the bodies of climatechange and whatever, but you
know they are focusing on theother side, but it should start
with ordinary we, thejournalists and maybe the NGOs,
but not so many.
You know so many different NGOsare looking at different
(17:49):
climate change bits, so I thinkit is really hard.
It will take time.
Ben (17:54):
No, and I think you've made a wonderful point there that
journalists are so oftenundervalued, because, of course,
in a state where there islikelihood of some kind of
corruption in our embezzlement,free, independent press is
literally the last defense youhave against that kind of thing.
So credit to yourself andcredit to your colleagues for
trying to speak about theseissues, or else no one else will
(18:16):
.
So let's continue to talk aboutthe sustainability and sport
intersection, comparing it tosort of European football.
What I mean by that is do youwant Ugandan football to look
one day like European football?
Do you want it to be that scaleand that magnitude, or do you
want to?
Just maybe?
Maybe you just want to watchEuropean football and you don't
(18:37):
mind about the Ugandan footballas we alluded to earlier.
Or maybe is there a thirdoption?
You know some kind of uniqueway of Ugandan sport.
What do you think?
Sharon (18:46):
about that.
Of course, I would love to havemy country, because the pride
of having your countryparticipating here at the
biggest stages, it's aheart-taking thing.
I have seen countries now likeSenegal, rwanda, here.
It is not having a lot ofplayers in the European section
(19:07):
or the USA, but just theinnovations that are coming up
as a government body having thebest run of the jazzy of ASNO,
psg, you know.
So, having your country upthere, you know it creates a lot
of opportunities for yourplayers.
But I would love my country atsome point having the biggest
stages.
It is so ashaming I do not wantto use the word language, but
(19:31):
that is it.
It is what it is.
You know, of recent, we did hostAlgeria.
We did host it from Cameroon.
Can you imagine, instead ofhaving it to the nearest country
, that can be Kenya, becauseKenya is better than us.
Or have it in Tanzania?
You know they are now having abetter infrastructure, they are
(19:51):
having better stadiums.
And now Rwanda I don't knowwhether you have been to Rwanda
they are coming up with thebiggest.
One of the biggest stadiumswill be in Africa here.
So if you cannot take the sportnear where we can travel, we
are the fund and you are puttingit outside East Africa, you
know.
So I would love to see mycountry at some point having
(20:14):
those better infrastructures.
And the only infrastructure wehave here in Uganda is called
Namole Mandela National Stadium,and what I hear and what I read
in news, it was given to anindependent person so that it
means an individual can doanything and anything.
(20:34):
If it means paying to accessthe stadium, it means it will be
privatized.
If it means there is a match ofthis kind and now let me say we
are hosting Nigeria here itmeans we shall be charged a fee
that an ordinary person wouldnot afford to get a watch.
You know.
So those are the challengesthat will come in with
(20:55):
privatizing things.
So, yes, I would love to see mycountry at some point somewhere
there.
You know, sometimes I do makefunny posts on Facebook and the
feedback from the public isreally so bad.
I can be honest.
If you can imagine that eventhe public is so happy to hear
that Uganda has lost a match,benjamin, that's how bad it is,
(21:19):
because it is frustrating.
The whole process has beenfrustrating.
People are not accessing thestadiums, they are not accessing
the events.
You are hosting them out of thecountry.
You are spending a lot of moneywhereby we are not seeing
improvements.
We are not seeing anything.
Coming back to our coach, who isnow our coach.
He is my friend, I can tell youhe is my friend, but we have
(21:43):
had so many of the coaches andnow this coach, when he left,
before they brought him back, hewas complaining that he took
the entire time.
He was not being paid.
So even the body itself hasfailed to pay the coaches.
The cranes who have been inSouth Africa was complaining.
You know the press that'sspinning him down how he is not
doing a good job.
(22:04):
Maybe the girls are notperforming well in South Africa,
but this is a man who isselling you.
A coach is selling you, takingmonths down the road.
I have never been paid, so whatdo you expect from such a
mentality?
The last time we were in Africabecause now these are two years
of us not being there the lasttime we were there, that was
2019.
(22:25):
Yes, I remember covering itonline and there is a certain
amount that they promised theplayers that, if they do well,
because that was one of the in along time that we left the
group stages and went to thequarters and I can tell you that
they promised them some amountof money, that when you do well,
(22:46):
you know those promises givethe players the love and you
know for them to play with allthe energy.
And at some point I don't knowreally what happened they didn't
pay these players and theyfailed to turn up for the
training.
But they have a very importantmatch and Senegal beat us.
It was only money who beat usthat very one goal and of course
(23:07):
we're knocked out.
So it all goes back.
There is a lot in Uganda.
We say there is a lot of Kavyo,kavyo is a lot, and I go there
and you know yes, no, and youphrase it very well.
Ben (23:22):
So now you've talked a lot about the international game
there and I think you've madesuch good points.
Do you think the same sameargument applies to the club
level, like would you rather seeUgandan players go play club
football overseas and then comeback and do very well for the
Ugandan national team, or wouldyou like to see a strong club
league in Uganda as well?
Sharon (23:43):
Yes, you just think I'm very something that I really
know I have.
At my understanding, on whatI've seen, players that are
actually here do perform betterthan the players that go outside
, that go overseas.
Why the players that gooverseas do not have playing
(24:04):
time.
That is number one, and coacheshave kept in these players.
We have one player.
He's now in Motherwell and sothis is a player who has never
been here.
So this is a player who hasgrown up from the UK but of
(24:24):
course he has the Ugandan name,he has the Ugandan descent and
now he's been prioritized.
A hand of players that are here.
You know we do not look at ourown firsts before we look
overseas.
Yet players here that are herecome, grown here, do better when
some are playing, especiallywhen we have tough competitions.
(24:46):
So I feel players here shouldbe given the opportunity.
And now there is this.
Actually that very player,mugavi.
Okay, there was a campaign oftourism here and he's on
billboard.
Yet a player here doing well atKCCA is not having that chance.
(25:07):
So players also do not give intheir all.
Of course they are not.
You know they are notprioritized.
You get my point.
They are not prioritized.
And others who are outside thecountry are being prioritized.
They keep bringing us playersthat we have never had, though,
instead of giving a chance tothe children we have.
So, at the end of the day, theyare also like you know what we
(25:29):
are moving out we are goingoverseas to maybe we will get
chance to be.
You know, for us, we have thisin our mind that if a player
left Uganda and went outside,maybe he is being exposed to
better equipment, this betterexperience, but we have never
seen that difference.
I can tell you.
I have not seen that differenceon the level.
(25:49):
We keep losing, keep losing.
So that is the whole point.
Ben (25:57):
Yeah, I think they have done something similar in South
Africa, but they have actuallychanged in recent years.
It was a long time there wereSouth African players playing in
the English 4th Division andthen they would come play for
the South African national team.
I am thinking of, like DeanFurman and those kind of guys.
But then what they haverealized was that, particularly
in, mamalodi, sundowns was sogood at South African club and
then when they started playingoverseas, they were always
(26:20):
playing in the African ChampionsLeague.
And then even I saw this yearit was quite amazing and
obviously they had to raisemoney for this.
Somehow Mamalodi Sundowns weretouring the Netherlands in
pre-season and I was like whatis that?
A South African club, anAfrican football club,
pre-season touring overseasagainst the Netherlands or Dutch
clubs.
That was very interesting andmaybe a sign of things to come
(26:43):
for African sport.
I think this is what MamalodiSundowns have realized that the
better way to do it is actuallyto maybe bring in some of that
expertise internally, nooverseas, and bring that
expertise to, in that case,south Africa.
I remember their argument forgoing overseas to the
Netherlands this year was thatthere are different styles of
(27:06):
football played over there.
That might be another reasonbehind your point that those
overseas players play.
Perhaps worse is that there isa certain style of football they
are playing in Uganda.
If this Ugandan player has beenplaying in Austrian 2nd
Division and not getting a lotof game time, that's not going
to translate against, forexample, saudi Ammanee or
(27:26):
something when you play Senegal.
So very interesting.
Sharon (27:31):
I did meet a gentleman from Sengo and he can tell you
what Sadio Manu is doing in hiscountry, why these are a few of
the players that really didallow to come back home and say,
no, let's play for our country,let's do this, so it gives some
pride at some point and he'sreally doing well.
I can tell you he's doing well,which is not so common, and I
(27:55):
think because they are incountries that do access those
opportunities and they havereally worked out with them.
Ben (28:05):
Yeah, but I think there's a different level of player there
.
They always talk about Drogbagiving back to Kotevoa and all
of this, but the Manay andDrogba were so good, they were
at that level that they couldafford to, whereas I think a lot
of the players we've beentalking about today they make
some money overseas, but theydon't make a huge amount of
money overseas, so they can'tgive back as much, or at least
(28:26):
they don't feel like they can.
Sharon (28:29):
Exactly so.
If a player the farthest pointthat our player maybe has ever
gone from Uganda, that should beTurkey.
Yes, there are some people whohave tried going to, but they
have really not made it first.
So they end up coming back homeand with nothing.
So most of them now do end upin the same bar in Tanzania, so
(28:55):
there's nothing much because ofthe sport that was for
developing in Uganda.
So if the best are not beingmade, I don't think that's a
sign of football.
The whole side of it will evenbe thought about.
Ben (29:12):
But that raises me.
I think we've got two finalpoints to touch on here.
The first one is what do youthink about that growth of the
game?
Because, of course, as much asit's amazing to look at the
Premier League and to look atthe European Leagues and say,
wow, those are so spectacularand there's so much
infrastructure and there's somuch resources and talent, they
(29:32):
are also very unsustainable.
The carbon emissions of thoseat that level of sport is
exceptionally high.
So do you foresee a way thatmaybe Ugandan football could
grow, but obviously not in thesame way?
Because if every country in theworld had a Premier
League-sized sports league,sport would be even more
unsustainable than it already isnow.
Sharon (29:55):
No, that can really just answer no.
Why?
Yes, I would love it to grow,but if it is growing to that
level, of course it should putmeasures.
Uganda is one of the countriesyou know, we are in the tropics,
but at the rates of climatechange, how it has affected this
(30:16):
country, I can give youscenarios.
I'm working on a story aboutthe flood from the Nile, from
the Nile, Benzin, and I can tellyou things are occurring that
we had never seen.
So I would love the sport togrow, but with measures, with
being aware of what is reallytaking place.
Ben (30:39):
OK, so let's just quickly knock off this last question.
We've talked a lot today aboutmaybe growing Ugandan sport, but
obviously not with such highemissions, and obviously there's
a very big argument that weneed to completely reduce the
amount of impact, theenvironmental impact, that
European and American sport has.
Do you think all of this isfair when it comes to Africa?
(31:00):
Because you know, historicallyAfrica is responsible for so
little amount of globalemissions, yet it is on the
receiving end of all the thingsyou've already discussed today
flooding, etc.
Do you think this is fair?
Do you think that Uganda shouldeven have to reduce its
environmental impact?
What do you make of that?
Sharon (31:20):
Exactly, just like you said, the African countries.
We are not so much of apolluter.
Maybe the wrong things we aredoing are just a few.
We are doing the wastelandreclamation, just the poor
disposal of the pollution.
But I think it's not fair.
(31:43):
This whole thing really stemsfrom where you are, because
people do have the biggesttechnologies.
So all these environments likefootball, you have the biggest
industries, not so much inAfrica, in Uganda to be specific
(32:03):
.
I think it's not fair, butstill it does not take us away
from being responsible or eventhe little that we are doing
that is bringing all theseissues.
So it is the whole balancething.
As the whole side of theEuropean side doing its own
thing, we should also look atthe side of looking at, of
(32:26):
taking care of ourselves.
I think that's how I can phraseit.
Ben (32:31):
Yes, I think that's very well phrased, because I
personally feel very guilty evendiscussing these kinds of
things with a lot ofinstitutions, organizations and
representatives acrosssub-Saharan Africa, because I
know that they are responsiblefor so little in terms of the
actual global emissions.
Sharon (32:51):
Exactly.
So just something small.
When I was doing my gym sessionI was talking to that gentleman
.
He works with an energy I'm notsure of the name, but the
organization is energy-based.
So I was asking him what hisopinion is, because I know I'll
have in this review about theAfrican sport and he's asking me
(33:15):
you know, I do not think we dohave that big of sports here
doing the pollution, having alot of carbon emissions.
Actually his argument was no,we are on the receiving end,
just like you stated it, but ofcourse it doesn't take a way
that we are not having theeffect of climate here.
(33:35):
Of recent in Bali, bali District, you know it's just one night
of it raining constantly and itswept the whole town and people
died.
You know how it starts rainingfrom 3 pm and in the morning
you'll hear that this kind ofnabah has died and really people
passed on in running waters,especially these ones who are
(33:57):
coming from nightclubs.
So we cannot take away from thefloods If we train in Kampala.
Here there are some roads.
You know this is a place thatwe have constructed so many
buildings in places that we arenot meant to be built in, you
know, because of theurbanization and all that stuff.
So we cannot do that with acarbon emission.
And of course, it does not takeaway that we are not feeling
(34:20):
the impact.
There are so many things goingaround climate change, the water
rising levels on the LakeVictoria, the River Nile, you
know, recent, these bridgeswhere all the waters were rose
to the extent that so manypeople were drowning, so there
is all that.
So it can't take away that weare not having the effects.
(34:41):
They are there.
But it is upon us doing theright thing, you know, when they
say, start away from the riverbanks 200 meters, so why not do
that?
But so many you know.
Let me say we are African.
Because I'm an African, I wasdoing an interview the other day
because I'm doing this story offloods.
I will share the link and seewhat.
(35:01):
You see what I've written.
And the head, the head of thehead, people, the local
government, are telling this.
People have gone back, you know, and when something hits again,
you know that we are againcrying.
So at the end of the day, evenwith ordinary people, do not
help ourselves.
We should do the right thing,and not so many people are aware
(35:23):
of it.
Ben (35:26):
Yeah, that's interesting, and I wonder if what you're
describing there is actuallygoing to start happening in
places like the UK or otherparts of Europe and America
where the impacts are becomingvisible.
For so long, climate change hasbeen something that's happening
somewhere else.
But you know, there's alwaystalk at the moment about how
many Premier League stadiums,for example, will be underwater
(35:47):
in 20 to 50 years because ofrising sea levels, and as those
things start to happen, peopleget more aware and maybe get
activated to make changes.
The problem, of course, is thatit is usually too late.
Sharon (36:00):
I have not seen it in Europe, but I've seen football
at the end of the daycomplaining, saying even in the
UK, here they are complainingthat the pitch was different, it
was raining and so the effectsare visible the whole world.
I can tell you there is nocountry that isn't feeling it.
I was talking to some friendwith Coration and she was
(36:22):
sending me pictures of a stormthat I didn't did you hear of it
.
There is a storm that swept offrecent and so many people lost
their lives.
You not raise lives there, justbreaking up and hitting houses.
So it is everywhere.
So it is upon us, as countriesin different capacities, to do
the right thing.
Ben (36:43):
Yes, and I think that goes back to what I asked you before
is that, although Uganda has avery low impact on the global
emissions, it still has someagency, it still has some
control over itself.
So any action that it does taketo reduce its impact on the
environment is exceptionallyadmirable.
Sharon (37:04):
So, at the end of the day, asking the right thing
whereby I've just stated thatthe government and the sports
board here has no clue.
I have noted if there was anevent of awareness about
sustainability in sports, Iwould have known and I would
have told you that at the momentit's unknown.
Ben (37:27):
Well, that's a great note to end on.
And, of course, sharon, ifsomething like that does happen,
keep us informed and we'll bewaiting for your feedback with
Bated Breath.
But yeah, thank you so much foryour time today and thank you
for coming on the show.
I really appreciate yourinsight.
Thank you, that was SharonMuzaki.
(37:50):
I'm so grateful for her timeand how forthcoming she was on
some fairly heavy topics Alwaysa good sign and a journalist.
This episode marks the end ofthis chunk of bimonthly episodes
, as I'm taking a slightlydifferent direction in my career
.
I am very pleased to bestarting my PhD at Loughborough
University, on their Londoncampus, in the intersectional
(38:13):
field of sustainability andsport, with a focus on
Sub-Saharan Africa.
While I enjoy talking on thisintersection and sharing it with
you, like all things,podcasting has its limits.
I'm hopeful that at leastattempting to fill some of the
gaps in the research cancontribute even more to moving
the space forward.
I'm not shutting down this show, but I cannot hope to post with
(38:35):
any degree of regularity as Idive into academia.
I think I will let the topicspick themselves in future based
on who and what I come across,but I'm very grateful for what
this show has done for me so far, both directly and indirectly,
leading to two job roles,countless amazing people and the
work I'm about to start now.
Thank you for supporting thisshow while I've been on this
(38:55):
journey and I shall report backas it continues.
So see you in the next episode.
Welcome back to the sustaining sport podcast.
In today's episode, we arejoined by Sharon Muzaki, a
budding environmental journalistand sports fan in Kampala.
There is a web ofinterconnected issues facing
Ugandan sport at the moment,from very limited funds to
repeated mismanagement, and froma brain drain on talent to the
(00:31):
undeniable effects of climatechange.
The question is how can Ugandaimprove its sport and develop
talent without furthercontributing to the climate
crisis, something Sharon and Idive right into, of course?
Such a discussion begs thesubsequent question is it even
fair to expect a nation who hascontributed so little to the
climate crisis to include suchconsiderations into their sport
(00:53):
and growth model?
Once again, we do our best toexplore this as far as we can.
This topic is particularlyrelevant and important to me due
to a special announcement I ameager to make to you at the end
of this episode, so I encourageyou to listen the whole way
through and without further ado.
Here is Sharon Muzaki on thestate of sport, particularly
football, and sustainability inUganda.
(01:16):
Welcome, sharon, to thesustaining sport podcast.
Sharon (01:29):
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you so much,
Benjamin.
Ben (01:33):
You're so welcome.
How did you get into this spaceof sustainability, and
particularly sustainability andsport?
Sharon (01:40):
When I did finish my university in 2019, after I got
done with my bachelor's degree.
I have been someone who hasbeen watching football, to be
specific, for some time with mybrothers when I was growing up,
so it has always been myinterest at some point.
So after university, I did jointhe local sports here, where I
(02:04):
was doing some writing butbasically doing the social media
work with.
The website is called Football256, which was covering the
local sports around.
So as time went by, I did jointhe climate space after doing my
very first environment trainingin 2021.
(02:28):
So that's how I got to connectwith climate and sport, so I do
understand both.
Ben (02:35):
Very interesting.
It sounds like you almost tookboth sectors independently and
now you've brought them together, which is really exciting.
Sharon (02:42):
Yes, I did take them independently At first.
I started with I actually didpresentation at some point on TV
.
That's how interesting it wasand I'm really so much into
football so it's just sointeresting that I'm a bit busy
that I try not to put so much.
You know, football is the wholething.
It can really take you upbecause of work here and there,
(03:05):
but I really do understand thatsport has been football, to be
specific.
With others I do know I followhere and there, but with
football, especially theEuropean football and the UK,
Interesting.
Ben (03:20):
So would you say you're more of a fan of European
football compared to, like,ugandan football?
Sharon (03:26):
Yes, now that the Premier League, the Liga, the
Ligue 1 really does take me upat some point, but still, I do
follow the Ugandan sports.
Once in a while I do attend thefootball events, especially
(03:47):
when we have also our big clubs.
Surprisingly, there is the KSAfor the Kampala Cactus City,
there is Vitas Football Club, sowhen those two are trying to go
, when they're having a match,it is always interesting to come
around and watch.
Ben (04:08):
Now that makes sense.
So then tell me what is thestate of sustainability in sport
within Ugandan sport, becauseyou said you're still attending
matches occasionally.
Do the teams have anyunderstanding of their impact?
The fans think about it at all?
Sharon (04:25):
I will strongly say no, not at all.
I cannot tell you that if wedid ask the president of Puffa
that is our football body I donot think that at some point he
has even thought about it.
So I will strongly say no.
Maybe if I do back up I cantell you no, I do not think they
(04:46):
really do understand the wholetopic.
Ben (04:50):
And what do you think the best strategy would be to try
and raise awareness for thiskind of thing or encourage
people to think about their ownimpact and the impact of their
activities.
Sharon (05:02):
I think that if you're an independent NGO and try to
partner with this, you knoweverything starts with awareness
trying to come around and sellthe idea and really try to
inform them of what is going onin the country, going in and
around the world.
So I think that is when maybethey would take interest, but I
(05:24):
haven't seen any event of a sortor an idea.
To be honest, when you look atUganda, basically the Ugandan
sport at most is still true Idon't know the word I can use to
describe it we are pollutingthe environment, or maybe we did
(05:46):
have a sports stadium beingconstructed in wetlands or
training ground, something witha sort.
But Uganda, as Uganda, thecountry you can imagine we are
doing coasting of our footballclubs outside Uganda, sorry,
football matches.
So that shows you the level weare at.
Ben (06:07):
And what do you think the big issues are?
I mean, you just mentioned areally interesting one around
like the wetlands and wheresports infrastructure is
constructed.
Do you think that's the biggestone?
Is it maybe travel?
Because I think definitely inEuropean sports, the travel is
the most unsustainable elementof it.
Sharon (06:24):
It goes back to the leaders that we do have.
I think they are not payingrotation to eat, but I have seen
football matches in Uganda,here them flooding and they are
failing to play and they havecancelled so many matches
because of the floods in Pampalahere.
So it shows you that theeffects are there and they are
(06:49):
really visible.
But it goes back to our leaders.
They are not just payingattention and for other reasons,
being political, that all thismaybe will just be passing by.
They are there.
They are not just payingattention to football pitches
though flooding, meaning it isin a space that wasn't meant to
(07:13):
be there.
Ben (07:13):
Yes, that's an absolutely fascinating point that they are
choosing to design stadiums orpitches or anything in places
that are not only not suitablebut then subsequently very
vulnerable to climate changeconsequences.
Sharon (07:29):
Yes, because in the climate change training that
I've had and on the waterfront,if you ever reclaim a place that
is not meant to be used for anyother thing, at some point the
water will already come backbecause that is the place for
its lodging.
So the effect will not bevisible there and then, but it's
(07:54):
a recurring thing.
Ben (07:57):
Yes, no, I agree.
I think that's a very goodpoint.
Do you think it becomes anissue of budget, as in if there
was a bigger budget, they couldbuild better infrastructure, or
do you think it is just maybeshort-sighted decision-making or
people trying to make quickdecisions?
Sharon (08:13):
With what I know is for far is an independent body.
I will not say it's the budget.
Yes, the budget side is onlythat the government allocates
the less funds.
They do say the funds areallocated to them.
(08:33):
The budget is never enough,because I can tell you in Uganda
, here you will have a footballplayer earning less than I don't
know how much a dollar is interms of fund money.
But okay, let me just take itin general that if you did an
(08:53):
interview on one of thefootballers having playing from
one of the leagues below youknow they are this first team
that will take months withoutbeing paid.
So that is why I can tell youthat in African football so many
footballers do run away to gofor we call it pro football, all
(09:15):
professional football in searchfor a better job or a better
pay outside, even when they arenot ready, because at the end of
the day they do end up thereand fail the tests.
Then again they are forced tobe back here so they go
prematurely.
(09:35):
So I will not say it's thebudget thing, but the government
here hasn't given a lot ofattention to the sports here.
We have our Uganda cranesfailing to go for matches
because they do not have funds.
So a month back we did have thechic cranes that is, the
(09:55):
football team, going for a sportin South Africa that was
netball, and they are beingstranded at the airport.
So it really shows you howUganda, the Ugandan government,
because if it is full fight itis supposed to be in touch with
the government.
So I do not know whether it'sthe embezzlement of funds within
(10:17):
the body and things are notmoving the way they are supposed
to be conducted.
So there is negligence of thegovernment and the people that
we do that work in this bodythat takes the sport around
Uganda and not is doing theright work.
Ben (10:36):
So many interesting points you raised there around national
bodies, embezzlementfascinating and unfortunately it
does not seem to be uncommonacross African sports.
I would like to come back to,maybe, issues of corruption in a
bit, but let's start off with,as you described, the players.
What do you make of most ofthese players?
(10:56):
I have noticed thisparticularly in women's football
, that they all go to the, atleast from Southern Africa.
They all go to the USA if theycan, because that is where the
money is.
Do you think that is a problemin the long term for the actual
country itself, that theseplayers go overseas and of
course sometimes they come back,but sometimes they don't or do
you see it as just a good way toimprove the sport on someone
(11:19):
else's resources?
I guess?
Sharon (11:23):
Yes, we have seen boxers , those doing the boxing sport.
Not only the boxing sport, butthere are so many of them.
When they do get the chance ofgoing to the USA, going to the
UK, to those countries, thatthey feel they would get a
better pay or a better lifeahead.
(11:43):
You know, the next thing youhear is a report or in news this
player has disappeared fromthis country.
You know, they leave the campsso early and they get to just
seek refugee.
Such things have been going on.
By now so many have disappearedfrom USA, from Germany, from all
(12:10):
those countries that they feelthey can get a better pay than
Uganda here.
So there are so many and allthat goes back to poor
management this side and a lotof embassies, of mental funds.
You know, because, as sport,the way we see the players in
England and wherever fromcountries like that, how they
(12:31):
are being paid, to be honest,for a sports person should be
doing better than me, but you'llfind a sports person here and
me and ordinary Sharon doingsome work.
I'm better than the profootballer here.
So that's how it ends up.
Ben (12:48):
Yes, and those players you mentioned who've gone all over
the seas, do they ever come back, or do they send money back or
anything?
Or once they get a way out,they often stay out.
Sharon (13:00):
Of course, most of them never look back.
The only player I have seen I'msure you know him if you follow
the bit of Ugandan sport he'scalled Denso Nyango.
That is the only footballerthat I've seen who is trying to
come back and he's trying to doit from his village.
(13:22):
He has a football academy thatis trying to come up, but to be
that is the only person who hastried coming up and trying to
say that oh yes, maybe I'veearned this from this country.
I can come back and develop mycountry.
Ben (13:37):
And that's frustrating because of course the overseas
country inevitably then benefitsfrom that talent, maybe down
the line, and I've even seen ithappen across generations, and
the example I give he comes upon this podcast a lot.
But D Valkariegi, his dad wasKenyan and his dad moved from
Kenya to Belgium to playfootball, obviously settled
(13:58):
there, had a child in Belgium,and then D Valkariegi now plays
international football forBelgium.
So that's a big shame.
Yeah, for the talent pool, Iguess, but on the other hand, of
course these overseas countriesdo have the infrastructure and
the coaching et cetera.
But then it becomes a questionof how do we improve that
situation in Uganda?
Sharon (14:20):
Exactly, exactly, yes, the point we just mentioned.
There are so many Africanplayers in Belgium there are so
many.
Even in Colombia.
Here we have the Sanchez fromTottenham, hottispar, there are
so many.
So, at the end of the day, inUganda, here I'm telling you the
fact that so many players havefailed the test, even with a
(14:43):
child, that you will see who hasthe talent.
But once they leave the countryto just go to the nearest, they
would not take a full seasonthere.
And even if they took a fullseason, not so many will be
playing.
Because for you to show that,yes, you have the talent and
(15:04):
they can be able to use you, youshould be playing on the first
team to have to prove that youknow what.
I know this, but here we do nothave the infrastructures, the
treatment that either you seethe players outside getting.
It isn't here.
So it is upon a player to takecare of himself.
I have my brother who is agoalkeeper.
(15:25):
He was a goalkeeper from one ofthose that we see that there
were big clubs around here.
So he got to get a knee injurythat needed an operation, but I
can tell you it took him oneyear of not getting operated and
now it is a family his familythat took care of the surgery
treatment.
So it shows you that if theyare not doing the basics, I do
(15:50):
not think they will even thinkof sustainability, climate
change, to be honest.
Ben (15:56):
Yes, and I was going to come to that point actually.
Next, I mean, in a world whereit does seem like there's a lot
of corruption going on at thehighest levels, but also a lack
of money filtering down to the,as you say, even the salary of
players across many sports, whathope do we have to incorporate
certain sustainability protocolsinto the way we do sport?
(16:17):
I can't imagine you're veryoptimistic.
Sharon (16:21):
I think that this all should come up.
How can it even be possible orhow can it happen?
We, with the reporters.
Now, like me, if you starttapping a few of those topics,
it creates a way and you know,most people do not know the
importance of generalists.
You know, you do go write astory, go for an interview from
(16:43):
someone and they do ask you nowyou're writing this.
How is it going to help?
So my answer to them already isyou know, every time I come to
your office inquiring ofsomething or why this is not
moving on, well, of course thatis already a way and it is
already an indication of, yes,maybe you're not doing something
(17:06):
right or you need to wake upand do this.
So I think it should start fromus, the reporters, which not so
many, by the way.
Many are doing the sportswriting, but of course they are
doing the usual reporting onfootball.
They aren't looking at thisside, so they are not so many.
So I think it should start withthe reporters.
(17:28):
Of course the government shouldcome in.
We have the bodies of climatechange and whatever, but you
know they are focusing on theother side, but it should start
with ordinary we, thejournalists and maybe the NGOs,
but not so many.
You know so many different NGOsare looking at different
(17:49):
climate change bits, so I thinkit is really hard.
It will take time.
Ben (17:54):
No, and I think you've made a wonderful point there that
journalists are so oftenundervalued, because, of course,
in a state where there islikelihood of some kind of
corruption in our embezzlement,free, independent press is
literally the last defense youhave against that kind of thing.
So credit to yourself andcredit to your colleagues for
trying to speak about theseissues, or else no one else will
(18:16):
.
So let's continue to talk aboutthe sustainability and sport
intersection, comparing it tosort of European football.
What I mean by that is do youwant Ugandan football to look
one day like European football?
Do you want it to be that scaleand that magnitude, or do you
want to?
Just maybe?
Maybe you just want to watchEuropean football and you don't
(18:37):
mind about the Ugandan footballas we alluded to earlier.
Or maybe is there a thirdoption?
You know some kind of uniqueway of Ugandan sport.
What do you think?
Sharon (18:46):
about that.
Of course, I would love to havemy country, because the pride
of having your countryparticipating here at the
biggest stages, it's aheart-taking thing.
I have seen countries now likeSenegal, rwanda, here.
It is not having a lot ofplayers in the European section
(19:07):
or the USA, but just theinnovations that are coming up
as a government body having thebest run of the jazzy of ASNO,
psg, you know.
So, having your country upthere, you know it creates a lot
of opportunities for yourplayers.
But I would love my country atsome point having the biggest
stages.
It is so ashaming I do not wantto use the word language, but
(19:31):
that is it.
It is what it is.
You know, of recent, we did hostAlgeria.
We did host it from Cameroon.
Can you imagine, instead ofhaving it to the nearest country
, that can be Kenya, becauseKenya is better than us.
Or have it in Tanzania?
You know they are now having abetter infrastructure, they are
(19:51):
having better stadiums.
And now Rwanda I don't knowwhether you have been to Rwanda
they are coming up with thebiggest.
One of the biggest stadiumswill be in Africa here.
So if you cannot take the sportnear where we can travel, we
are the fund and you are puttingit outside East Africa, you
know.
So I would love to see mycountry at some point having
(20:14):
those better infrastructures.
And the only infrastructure wehave here in Uganda is called
Namole Mandela National Stadium,and what I hear and what I read
in news, it was given to anindependent person so that it
means an individual can doanything and anything.
(20:34):
If it means paying to accessthe stadium, it means it will be
privatized.
If it means there is a match ofthis kind and now let me say we
are hosting Nigeria here itmeans we shall be charged a fee
that an ordinary person wouldnot afford to get a watch.
You know.
So those are the challengesthat will come in with
(20:55):
privatizing things.
So, yes, I would love to see mycountry at some point somewhere
there.
You know, sometimes I do makefunny posts on Facebook and the
feedback from the public isreally so bad.
I can be honest.
If you can imagine that eventhe public is so happy to hear
that Uganda has lost a match,benjamin, that's how bad it is,
(21:19):
because it is frustrating.
The whole process has beenfrustrating.
People are not accessing thestadiums, they are not accessing
the events.
You are hosting them out of thecountry.
You are spending a lot of moneywhereby we are not seeing
improvements.
We are not seeing anything.
Coming back to our coach, who isnow our coach.
He is my friend, I can tell youhe is my friend, but we have
(21:43):
had so many of the coaches andnow this coach, when he left,
before they brought him back, hewas complaining that he took
the entire time.
He was not being paid.
So even the body itself hasfailed to pay the coaches.
The cranes who have been inSouth Africa was complaining.
You know the press that'sspinning him down how he is not
doing a good job.
(22:04):
Maybe the girls are notperforming well in South Africa,
but this is a man who isselling you.
A coach is selling you, takingmonths down the road.
I have never been paid, so whatdo you expect from such a
mentality?
The last time we were in Africabecause now these are two years
of us not being there the lasttime we were there, that was
2019.
(22:25):
Yes, I remember covering itonline and there is a certain
amount that they promised theplayers that, if they do well,
because that was one of the in along time that we left the
group stages and went to thequarters and I can tell you that
they promised them some amountof money, that when you do well,
(22:46):
you know those promises givethe players the love and you
know for them to play with allthe energy.
And at some point I don't knowreally what happened they didn't
pay these players and theyfailed to turn up for the
training.
But they have a very importantmatch and Senegal beat us.
It was only money who beat usthat very one goal and of course
(23:07):
we're knocked out.
So it all goes back.
There is a lot in Uganda.
We say there is a lot of Kavyo,kavyo is a lot, and I go there
and you know yes, no, and youphrase it very well.
Ben (23:22):
So now you've talked a lot about the international game
there and I think you've madesuch good points.
Do you think the same sameargument applies to the club
level, like would you rather seeUgandan players go play club
football overseas and then comeback and do very well for the
Ugandan national team, or wouldyou like to see a strong club
league in Uganda as well?
Sharon (23:43):
Yes, you just think I'm very something that I really
know I have.
At my understanding, on whatI've seen, players that are
actually here do perform betterthan the players that go outside
, that go overseas.
Why the players that gooverseas do not have playing
(24:04):
time.
That is number one, and coacheshave kept in these players.
We have one player.
He's now in Motherwell and sothis is a player who has never
been here.
So this is a player who hasgrown up from the UK but of
(24:24):
course he has the Ugandan name,he has the Ugandan descent and
now he's been prioritized.
A hand of players that are here.
You know we do not look at ourown firsts before we look
overseas.
Yet players here that are herecome, grown here, do better when
some are playing, especiallywhen we have tough competitions.
(24:46):
So I feel players here shouldbe given the opportunity.
And now there is this.
Actually that very player,mugavi.
Okay, there was a campaign oftourism here and he's on
billboard.
Yet a player here doing well atKCCA is not having that chance.
(25:07):
So players also do not give intheir all.
Of course they are not.
You know they are notprioritized.
You get my point.
They are not prioritized.
And others who are outside thecountry are being prioritized.
They keep bringing us playersthat we have never had, though,
instead of giving a chance tothe children we have.
So, at the end of the day, theyare also like you know what we
(25:29):
are moving out we are goingoverseas to maybe we will get
chance to be.
You know, for us, we have thisin our mind that if a player
left Uganda and went outside,maybe he is being exposed to
better equipment, this betterexperience, but we have never
seen that difference.
I can tell you.
I have not seen that differenceon the level.
(25:49):
We keep losing, keep losing.
So that is the whole point.
Ben (25:57):
Yeah, I think they have done something similar in South
Africa, but they have actuallychanged in recent years.
It was a long time there wereSouth African players playing in
the English 4th Division andthen they would come play for
the South African national team.
I am thinking of, like DeanFurman and those kind of guys.
But then what they haverealized was that, particularly
in, mamalodi, sundowns was sogood at South African club and
then when they started playingoverseas, they were always
(26:20):
playing in the African ChampionsLeague.
And then even I saw this yearit was quite amazing and
obviously they had to raisemoney for this.
Somehow Mamalodi Sundowns weretouring the Netherlands in
pre-season and I was like whatis that?
A South African club, anAfrican football club,
pre-season touring overseasagainst the Netherlands or Dutch
clubs.
That was very interesting andmaybe a sign of things to come
(26:43):
for African sport.
I think this is what MamalodiSundowns have realized that the
better way to do it is actuallyto maybe bring in some of that
expertise internally, nooverseas, and bring that
expertise to, in that case,south Africa.
I remember their argument forgoing overseas to the
Netherlands this year was thatthere are different styles of
(27:06):
football played over there.
That might be another reasonbehind your point that those
overseas players play.
Perhaps worse is that there isa certain style of football they
are playing in Uganda.
If this Ugandan player has beenplaying in Austrian 2nd
Division and not getting a lotof game time, that's not going
to translate against, forexample, saudi Ammanee or
(27:26):
something when you play Senegal.
So very interesting.
Sharon (27:31):
I did meet a gentleman from Sengo and he can tell you
what Sadio Manu is doing in hiscountry, why these are a few of
the players that really didallow to come back home and say,
no, let's play for our country,let's do this, so it gives some
pride at some point and he'sreally doing well.
I can tell you he's doing well,which is not so common, and I
(27:55):
think because they are incountries that do access those
opportunities and they havereally worked out with them.
Ben (28:05):
Yeah, but I think there's a different level of player there
.
They always talk about Drogbagiving back to Kotevoa and all
of this, but the Manay andDrogba were so good, they were
at that level that they couldafford to, whereas I think a lot
of the players we've beentalking about today they make
some money overseas, but theydon't make a huge amount of
money overseas, so they can'tgive back as much, or at least
(28:26):
they don't feel like they can.
Sharon (28:29):
Exactly so.
If a player the farthest pointthat our player maybe has ever
gone from Uganda, that should beTurkey.
Yes, there are some people whohave tried going to, but they
have really not made it first.
So they end up coming back homeand with nothing.
So most of them now do end upin the same bar in Tanzania, so
(28:55):
there's nothing much because ofthe sport that was for
developing in Uganda.
So if the best are not beingmade, I don't think that's a
sign of football.
The whole side of it will evenbe thought about.
Ben (29:12):
But that raises me.
I think we've got two finalpoints to touch on here.
The first one is what do youthink about that growth of the
game?
Because, of course, as much asit's amazing to look at the
Premier League and to look atthe European Leagues and say,
wow, those are so spectacularand there's so much
infrastructure and there's somuch resources and talent, they
(29:32):
are also very unsustainable.
The carbon emissions of thoseat that level of sport is
exceptionally high.
So do you foresee a way thatmaybe Ugandan football could
grow, but obviously not in thesame way?
Because if every country in theworld had a Premier
League-sized sports league,sport would be even more
unsustainable than it already isnow.
Sharon (29:55):
No, that can really just answer no.
Why?
Yes, I would love it to grow,but if it is growing to that
level, of course it should putmeasures.
Uganda is one of the countriesyou know, we are in the tropics,
but at the rates of climatechange, how it has affected this
(30:16):
country, I can give youscenarios.
I'm working on a story aboutthe flood from the Nile, from
the Nile, Benzin, and I can tellyou things are occurring that
we had never seen.
So I would love the sport togrow, but with measures, with
being aware of what is reallytaking place.
Ben (30:39):
OK, so let's just quickly knock off this last question.
We've talked a lot today aboutmaybe growing Ugandan sport, but
obviously not with such highemissions, and obviously there's
a very big argument that weneed to completely reduce the
amount of impact, theenvironmental impact, that
European and American sport has.
Do you think all of this isfair when it comes to Africa?
(31:00):
Because you know, historicallyAfrica is responsible for so
little amount of globalemissions, yet it is on the
receiving end of all the thingsyou've already discussed today
flooding, etc.
Do you think this is fair?
Do you think that Uganda shouldeven have to reduce its
environmental impact?
What do you make of that?
Sharon (31:20):
Exactly, just like you said, the African countries.
We are not so much of apolluter.
Maybe the wrong things we aredoing are just a few.
We are doing the wastelandreclamation, just the poor
disposal of the pollution.
But I think it's not fair.
(31:43):
This whole thing really stemsfrom where you are, because
people do have the biggesttechnologies.
So all these environments likefootball, you have the biggest
industries, not so much inAfrica, in Uganda to be specific
(32:03):
.
I think it's not fair, butstill it does not take us away
from being responsible or eventhe little that we are doing
that is bringing all theseissues.
So it is the whole balancething.
As the whole side of theEuropean side doing its own
thing, we should also look atthe side of looking at, of
(32:26):
taking care of ourselves.
I think that's how I can phraseit.
Ben (32:31):
Yes, I think that's very well phrased, because I
personally feel very guilty evendiscussing these kinds of
things with a lot ofinstitutions, organizations and
representatives acrosssub-Saharan Africa, because I
know that they are responsiblefor so little in terms of the
actual global emissions.
Sharon (32:51):
Exactly.
So just something small.
When I was doing my gym sessionI was talking to that gentleman
.
He works with an energy I'm notsure of the name, but the
organization is energy-based.
So I was asking him what hisopinion is, because I know I'll
have in this review about theAfrican sport and he's asking me
(33:15):
you know, I do not think we dohave that big of sports here
doing the pollution, having alot of carbon emissions.
Actually his argument was no,we are on the receiving end,
just like you stated it, but ofcourse it doesn't take a way
that we are not having theeffect of climate here.
(33:35):
Of recent in Bali, bali District, you know it's just one night
of it raining constantly and itswept the whole town and people
died.
You know how it starts rainingfrom 3 pm and in the morning
you'll hear that this kind ofnabah has died and really people
passed on in running waters,especially these ones who are
(33:57):
coming from nightclubs.
So we cannot take away from thefloods If we train in Kampala.
Here there are some roads.
You know this is a place thatwe have constructed so many
buildings in places that we arenot meant to be built in, you
know, because of theurbanization and all that stuff.
So we cannot do that with acarbon emission.
And of course, it does not takeaway that we are not feeling
(34:20):
the impact.
There are so many things goingaround climate change, the water
rising levels on the LakeVictoria, the River Nile, you
know, recent, these bridgeswhere all the waters were rose
to the extent that so manypeople were drowning, so there
is all that.
So it can't take away that weare not having the effects.
(34:41):
They are there.
But it is upon us doing theright thing, you know, when they
say, start away from the riverbanks 200 meters, so why not do
that?
But so many you know.
Let me say we are African.
Because I'm an African, I wasdoing an interview the other day
because I'm doing this story offloods.
I will share the link and seewhat.
(35:01):
You see what I've written.
And the head, the head of thehead, people, the local
government, are telling this.
People have gone back, you know, and when something hits again,
you know that we are againcrying.
So at the end of the day, evenwith ordinary people, do not
help ourselves.
We should do the right thing,and not so many people are aware
(35:23):
of it.
Ben (35:26):
Yeah, that's interesting, and I wonder if what you're
describing there is actuallygoing to start happening in
places like the UK or otherparts of Europe and America
where the impacts are becomingvisible.
For so long, climate change hasbeen something that's happening
somewhere else.
But you know, there's alwaystalk at the moment about how
many Premier League stadiums,for example, will be underwater
(35:47):
in 20 to 50 years because ofrising sea levels, and as those
things start to happen, peopleget more aware and maybe get
activated to make changes.
The problem, of course, is thatit is usually too late.
Sharon (36:00):
I have not seen it in Europe, but I've seen football
at the end of the daycomplaining, saying even in the
UK, here they are complainingthat the pitch was different, it
was raining and so the effectsare visible the whole world.
I can tell you there is nocountry that isn't feeling it.
I was talking to some friendwith Coration and she was
(36:22):
sending me pictures of a stormthat I didn't did you hear of it
.
There is a storm that swept offrecent and so many people lost
their lives.
You not raise lives there, justbreaking up and hitting houses.
So it is everywhere.
So it is upon us, as countriesin different capacities, to do
the right thing.
Ben (36:43):
Yes, and I think that goes back to what I asked you before
is that, although Uganda has avery low impact on the global
emissions, it still has someagency, it still has some
control over itself.
So any action that it does taketo reduce its impact on the
environment is exceptionallyadmirable.
Sharon (37:04):
So, at the end of the day, asking the right thing
whereby I've just stated thatthe government and the sports
board here has no clue.
I have noted if there was anevent of awareness about
sustainability in sports, Iwould have known and I would
have told you that at the momentit's unknown.
Ben (37:27):
Well, that's a great note to end on.
And, of course, sharon, ifsomething like that does happen,
keep us informed and we'll bewaiting for your feedback with
Bated Breath.
But yeah, thank you so much foryour time today and thank you
for coming on the show.
I really appreciate yourinsight.
Thank you, that was SharonMuzaki.
(37:50):
I'm so grateful for her timeand how forthcoming she was on
some fairly heavy topics Alwaysa good sign and a journalist.
This episode marks the end ofthis chunk of bimonthly episodes
, as I'm taking a slightlydifferent direction in my career
.
I am very pleased to bestarting my PhD at Loughborough
University, on their Londoncampus, in the intersectional
(38:13):
field of sustainability andsport, with a focus on
Sub-Saharan Africa.
While I enjoy talking on thisintersection and sharing it with
you, like all things,podcasting has its limits.
I'm hopeful that at leastattempting to fill some of the
gaps in the research cancontribute even more to moving
the space forward.
I'm not shutting down this show, but I cannot hope to post with
(38:35):
any degree of regularity as Idive into academia.
I think I will let the topicspick themselves in future based
on who and what I come across,but I'm very grateful for what
this show has done for me so far, both directly and indirectly,
leading to two job roles,countless amazing people and the
work I'm about to start now.
Thank you for supporting thisshow while I've been on this
(38:55):
journey and I shall report backas it continues.
So see you in the next episode.
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