Warming Up - How Climate Change is Changing Sport - Sustaining Sport

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ben (00:00):
Welcome back to the Sustaining Sport podcast.
Today we are talking withMadeline Orr, assistant
Professor of Sport Ecology atthe University of Toronto.
She is also a co-founder of theSport Ecology Group and in
early May she will be releasinga brand new book titled Warming
Up how Climate Change isChanging Sport, which, as you
may guess, focuses on how sportis adapting to and wrestling

(00:23):
with climate change.
Maddie and I actually have beentalking about her making an
appearance on this podcast forabout two years now, but I think
the timing in the end workedout really well given this
tremendous book.
I was able to read itpre-release, in preparation, and
, even with my high expectations, I am impressed.
It's clearly a labor of love,with near excessive details, and

(00:45):
I really enjoyed hearing fromMaddy about why she took certain
stances on such dynamic topicsand also how she navigates the
double intersection of sportversus sustainability and
academia versus industry.
Important disclosure Maddy is atthe time of recording one of my
PhD supervisors.
Thus is at the time ofrecording one of my PhD

(01:07):
supervisors.
Thus, you may ask, I surelywouldn't publish anything overly
critical.
On the contrary, the nature ofan ideally authentic academic
relationship is one ofcriticality, albeit civil, and
to aid in the pursuit ofknowledge.
I know academia or the academyhas its issues and we touch on
many of them in this episode,but knowing this motivates the
publishing of these kinds ofconversations, free of charge

(01:29):
and open access, and to keep allchannels open, if you have any
thoughts on mine or specificallyMaddy's work, do reach out in
good faith.
Of course, I promise you we cantake it and it may help inform
a more accurate way forward.
With that said, please enjoythis behind-the-scenes look at
the world of sport ecology.
Welcome, maddy, to theSustaining Sport Podcast.

Maddy (02:04):
Thanks so much for having me.

Ben (02:06):
So you have a book coming out which is essentially a
summary of sustainability insport, arguably over the last
five years and also your career.
But we have to begin at thebeginning.
How did you get intosustainability in sport and to
already get in the book?
There was a quote which I, likeyou, became interested in sport
in the same way an atheistbecomes interested in religion.

(02:27):
Say more.

Maddy (02:29):
Yeah, you know, I grew up in a house with a you know a
dad who watches sport.
I played sport as a kid but itwas more about.
It could have just as easilybeen dance or theater, like I
just that's where my friendswere.
I enjoyed it.
I played all the way throughuniversity until an injury
stopped me.
But again it was like I wasthere for my friends.
It wasn't like the competitivedrive that kept me there and I

(02:49):
never really watched sport Likeit wasn't part of like my.
There would be hockey on in thehouse in the background.
But growing up in Canada I thinkthat's most kids experience and
I got to working in sport kindof like through a back entrance
years later from a friend whosesister owned a company called
Spartan Race, the Canadiandivision, and they were doing

(03:09):
obstacle course racingeverywhere and she was like oh,
you're really organized, you'reinto events, you want to help us
out.
So I did and that was kind of myentry point into sport and I
loved it and I thought, well, Ithink we can maybe accomplish
something here in a way that'sfar more tangible than what I'd
been studying at the time, whichwas international development,
and that just felt so big anddoom and gloom and all the

(03:31):
problems, none of the solutions.
And so I thought, if I can usesport as an entry point to think
about health and well-being, tothink about gender equity at
the time that's kind of where myhead was that would be great.
And over time it just becameabundantly clear that sport was
going to be my entry point totalking about, you know, the big
, bad, climate change, which hadbeen on my mind for a really

(03:52):
long time.
Um, but I hadn't really figuredout how to, how to cope with
that, how to deal with that.

Ben (03:57):
Yes, which sports did you play when you were growing up?
Cause you were Canadian, so canI guess hockey.

Maddy (04:03):
Oh, yeah, yeah, that's, that would be a good guess.
Um, no, I played all the onesyou wouldn't expect.
So, as I played water polo andI played rugby and then I skied,
you would have been fine.

Ben (04:13):
Well, other than the skiing , you'd have been fine in South
Africa because, uh yeah, waterpolo and rugby are the well.
Water polo is the summertraining camp for the winter
rugby season.
Um, and now in the book youhave this quite nice personal,
almost opening about how youwere spending time in the Alps
and you were observing changingconditions.
Tell us about how you kind ofthought about that and how that

(04:35):
maybe prompted you to get intothings a bit more deeply.

Maddy (04:39):
Yeah.
So I think one thing that sportdoes really nicely is it kind
of crafts a calendar around theyear for you.
And so if you play sport,follow sport.
You can kind of expect thatcertain things are going to
happen at a certain time.
And as a water polo player wewere indoors so it wasn't as
meticulous around the calendar,but rugby for sure.
We would start our season inFebruary.
We'd be shoveling snow off ofthe pitch through March and then

(05:02):
the snow would melt and thatwould be exciting and then we'd
get to play a little more hardoutside because it would be icy.
And in skiing you expect thatyou would start skiing around
the beginning of December andyou kind of go through Easter.
And that's the kind of calendarthat I grew up with.
So skiing bled into rugbyseason and then rugby season
would end and it would be skiingseason.

(05:22):
So it was kind of a beautiful.
There was always somethinghappening.
And when I took a gap yearbetween my master's, my PhD, I
went to the French Alps on a jobactually with a British ski
company and my job was to set upthe transfers from the airport
to the resort, the extras.
So all the lessons, all the youknow activities and
occasionally take people to thehospital when things went wrong,

(05:45):
cause I had the whole clientfile, so I had their insurance
and everything else, and I foundmyself the hospital quite a lot
that year because we didn'thave snow until January and you
would think that, okay, well, ifthere's no snow, no one's
getting injured.
That's not quite how it works.
They're going to make snowartificially and they're not
going to make it across thewhole mountain mountain because
that would cost too much money,so they're going to have only

(06:05):
some runs open and then you'vegot more people in a kind of
tightened space so the lessexperienced skiers are more
likely to collide.
But you also have just thequality of the snow across the
day.
If it's warm and it's fake snow, it's slush, so you just get
bad conditions.
And so we saw that, uh, we sawit play out in injuries.
And then we saw very tragicallyand I think this is what really

(06:27):
kind of woke me up was we sawquite a few avalanche deaths
that year and it absolutelyshook the town, uh, shook
everyone's morale.
You don't expect that when it,you know it, it does happen, but
when it happens multiple timesin a season and kind of a few
close mountains together.
It's a bit of a wake-up call.
So that was the big one for meand I started looking around and

(06:48):
thinking, well, this is reallynot good from a tourism
perspective.
Obviously I had friends who youknow their seasons were getting
cut short, shifts getting cutat a restaurant, that kind of
thing, but then from a healthand safety standpoint it can be
catastrophic.
So I started looking around andthinking, well, skiing is the
obvious one, but it can't justbe skiing Like.
I've watched it happening inother sports.

(07:08):
I know friends back homeplaying rugby are playing on
fields without snow in February,which is super weird, great for
rugby, but not normal.
And so it was one of those likeonce you see it, you can't unsee
it situations Like I justcouldn't look away and I started
seeing it everywhere.
I started like turning on thesix o'clock news and there'd be
a story about a storm in Asiathat was shutting down this,

(07:30):
that and the other.
You know you watch theAustralian open and they're
suffering with heat.
So it just kind of startedappearing everywhere.
And so I thought, well, I havethe background in international
development to think through howthis is going to hit people
differently, and I think thatwas really the crux of it.
But I'm interested in usingsport as a mechanism to get the
message out, because if you area person like me who grew up in

(07:54):
a part of the world that we'refar removed from the worst,
worst impacts in Toronto, we'restarting to get them now, but 10
years ago that wasn't the caseand it was really easy for
people to put it off and viewclimate change as someone else's
problem or a future problem,and I was seeing it really show
up in my own life in a big way,and so I thought well, if if
someone's not going to have thatconversation cause it's too

(08:16):
sciencey or too complicated orjust not their problem, maybe we
can make them care because it'shurting sports.

Ben (08:23):
Yes, and I do worry about skiing.
Sorry, I should say I feelguilty about with skiing,
because I used to really loveskiing.
I actually, many years ago,qualified as a ski instructor
because I briefly thought that'swhat I wanted to do.
Kind of glad.

Maddy (08:37):
I didn't.
It's still what I want to do.

Ben (08:39):
Well, exactly, I mean the lifestyle but I'm like, oh, hang
on, maybe opportunities aregoing down.
But yeah, like I, I went skiingrecently for the first time in
many, many years, got the traindown to the Alps, you know,
trying to do my best, one superexpensive, so that we're talking
structural issues there.
But then you get there andthere's loads of snow at the top
, but the bottom runs arecompletely empty.
So one, it's nice when we'retrying to make this argument

(09:01):
around climate change, there's,there's a real manifestation of
it, but then the actual, as yousay, the quality of the
experience is way worse becauseeveryone's crowded up at the top
and more injuries.

Maddy (09:09):
And then the village, like the Apres experience is not
the same, like the wholetourism event around it is not
the same.
You know, I was, we were skiing, my husband and I with his
parents last year in the Alps.
Same thing like went over landand we're like this is great, at
least it's an option.
But we got up there and thewhole Valley is green and like
just that, like emotionally,seeing a green Valley in the
winter is not what you'reexpecting, and then and then you

(09:31):
only really get the white whenyou get all the way up to the
top.
So it was.
Yeah, it's glaring to see it.

Ben (09:38):
So now I mean this brings us to the, to the many, I'd say
the probably first two thirds ofthe book.
Sport is our entry point intothese issues and sport is being
subjected to them, but theissues are much bigger than
sport.
You know, I it's like it'sweird, you can't.
You can't separate sport fromthe issues.
But you can occasionallyseparate the issues from sport,
but we don't want to do that.
We want to use sport as ourpoint of entry.

(09:59):
So, uh and I again, similarsame page as your, your other
quote, you so, and again samepage as your other quote.
You have a nice quote.
Most of this book is grim.
So can you tell us a little bitabout why?
What chapters two through to 10, are grim?
What's going on there?

Maddy (10:13):
Yeah.
So most of my research, asyou'll know that most of my
research is actually anadaptation, and I approached
climate change and sportoriginally in my work through
adaptation because I thoughtit's a health issue, it's a
social issue, it's a money issue.
There's an entry point for justabout everybody in the sports
world here if we frame itthrough adaptation.
So 10 years of my work has beenin adaptation and that really

(10:35):
looks like how hot is too hot toplay.
So I, in writing this book, satdown with families who've lost
their sons to heat-relatedillness and have been
campaigning around how do wealleviate the heat-related
stress of playing Americanfootball in particular?
Just because the kit is prettyproblematic in terms of not

(10:55):
letting you sweat and the seasonis really lined up with the
worst of the summer heat.
But it's about heat, it's aboutair quality, it's about the
quality of the pitch or theplaying surface as well.
So in some cases we're talkingabout you know what does it look
like when golf courses inScotland start falling into the
sea?
And I spent some time up therevisiting courses, meeting with

(11:16):
course managers, meeting withcity officials as well and
talking through the fact that,historically, a lot of golf
courses in Scotland and Irelandwould have been buffer sites to
the village.
So it's on the coast becausethey know that a king tide can
come in and absolutely cause alot of damage to that site
Occasionally a storm thathappens every 50 years.
But if the village is on theinside of the course, then the

(11:37):
village is protected andincreasingly those courses have
become the economic engine ofthose towns and tourism sites et
cetera.
So places like St Andrews areright on the coast.
They buffer the sea from thetown of St Andrews and if
they're losing meters of landevery year to the ocean, that's
going to have a huge consequenceon playing opportunities there,

(11:58):
but also on just the safetyfeatures of the site.
Is it safe to walk across iteven, even, let alone play?
So we dig into that a littlebit.
We get into the water as well.
So I talked to surfers andsailors and folks who are in the
water about what is it like tobe an open water swimmer in the
UK right now, where the waterquality is just absolute crap,
and so that's a challenge that Isaw up close and personal in

(12:21):
Rio and I talk about it at thebeginning of the book a little
bit.
But athletes getting out of thewater feeling really awful
because the bacteria content wasso high.
And so what I try to do throughthe first 10 chapters of the
book is just illustrate thatjust about anywhere you go with
an outdoor sport there areclimate hazards cropping up,
that they are severe, but alsothat there are adaptation

(12:42):
measures that can be taken.
That would avert the worst casescenarios if we have an honest
conversation about it right nowand if we get people on board
and that's tricky, that's thehard part.
It's not often people arewilling to admit that a really
hot day is really hot becausethey're in it.
It's getting them to then makethe jump and saying, well, this
really hot day is not a one-off,it's part of a pattern, so we

(13:04):
can expect more of them, whichmeans we probably need policies
in place, we probably needemergency protocols in place,
and the worst case scenariosthat I cover in the book and I
say this kind of towards the endof that section is what they
have in common is they thoughtthey had more time and they
didn't.
So I'm hoping that by that kindof two-thirds of the way
through the book point, folkshave a good idea of what they

(13:26):
can expect in a variety ofscenarios and environments, but
also that they feel empoweredthat there's actually still
quite a lot we can do.
We can avert the worst casescenarios, we can get people on
board, we can tell a meaningfulstory about climate adaptation
that might inspire other sectorsand that how cool would that be
.
So not all hope is lost, but weare in dire straits if we don't
do anything.

Ben (13:45):
Yes, and I do think the intro to the coastal erosion
chapter is the best, when youtalk about how Donald Trump was
trying to build a wall, uh,against, divide Mexico and deny
climate change, but then alsowas building a wall to protect
his golf courses from climatechange.

Maddy (14:00):
That's that's rich.

Ben (14:01):
And actually it speaks to the bigger, the bigger value of
this narrative that you areputting forward here, that we're
talking about these issues, andsport is a great way to talk
about the issues.
So, like, I think, maybe whenwe speak about people use the
term the household or theindividual and it sounds quite
abstract, but it's like here isan actual person from an actual
sports club that you know, maybethe reader has also played and

(14:22):
their life is changing in thisway.
But then I do think and youknow I would have we and you
have been talking about doingthis interview for three years.
I was going to interview youanyway, but then I only read the
book.
I finished it yesterday and Iwas surprised at the level of
emotional depth.
I was maybe expecting anacademic book.
This is not an academic book.
This is a real, like a, just areal book.
This is a tangible book.

(14:43):
This is, this is something foreveryone to read.
What was it like unpacking thatemotional stuff?

Maddy (14:52):
Cause I felt I don't know what the right phrase is, maybe
a bit of secondhand trauma.
Yeah, it's funny.
I think my, my husband willappreciate that.
You just said that, um, causehe's watched me go through it.
I think I tried.
I tried to say through the booklike it's hard doing this work.
It's really hard being a personwho goes into communities, sits
with families who've had majorlosses or traumas, hears, you
know, the secondhand and sees itLike I've walked through.

(15:13):
I've walked through forests andBMX facilities that have been
torn down by fire.
I've walked along, you know,through entire communities in
Puerto Rico that wereobliterated by the storms and
then seen how they've tried torebuild that and what that
looked like.
Through parts of Louisiana thatwere impacted by Hurricane
Katrina first, and then Ida 10years later, 15 years later.

(15:36):
And dealing in climate trauma ishard and I don't want to shy
away from that and I try reallyhard to just be really honest
about it.
That it sucks and it's grim andthere's a lot of bad news here,
but that just about everywhereyou look where there's bad news,
there's people doing good stufftoo, and so that the folks who
are in it haven't given up hope,we can't give up hope on them.

(15:57):
There's a responsibility kindof among those of us who have
some power in the sports spaceand I would say, like I include
academics in that we know better, so we have to do better but to
share what we know, to haveconversations about it at the
highest levels, to make sureit's visible in places like the
premier league and formula oneand all these places that folks
are going to watch on TV and gofor their escape.
We have to have theseconversations there because

(16:19):
that's where we can really drivekind of mass change and set a
new tone for what climate changemeans in sport.
But on the secondhand dramapiece, it was really hard doing
the research on this.
It's 10 years of research.
That was hard phone calls, hardvisits, a lot of unpacking
people's trauma.
At one point I talk about theTsunaha people in British

(16:40):
Columbia and how they had tofight back against a Japanese
developer who was trying tobuild this like massive ski
resort and and just like theamount of trauma that brought to
that community over 20 years offighting that.
You know it's really hard but Ithink it's worthwhile to do it
and I kind of walk away and keepin my head like this is

(17:01):
worthwhile work and I thinksometimes, like sport, can feel
kind of frivolous, but everyperson who plays sport goes home
at the end of the day and livesa life and you know, all the
people who work in sport alsohave lives.
They've got kids and familiesand concerns and worries, and
they're being hit by this too.
So I think what kept me soberthrough the whole thing was just

(17:22):
this idea that it's worthwhile.
It's worth doing.
These are stories that are hardto get, hard to find.
It was an expensive project aswell.
Like there were a lot of grantsthat had to be sought and got
to to go to these places, to bepresent, to show up in places
like Kenya and Australia.
Like I did a lot of travel forthis and I talk about being part
of the problem too, but it wasa bit of an emotional

(17:43):
rollercoaster and that's justwhat it was and I think I would
do it again, but I definitelygot to the end of it and needed
a bit of a break from it.

Ben (17:51):
Yes, and I just think the level of detail is probably what
I was not expecting.
I mean, particularly like thechapter on drought.
You talk about very tangiblecases in Cape town during the
drought of rugby clubsstruggling and this kind of
stuff.
I mean I was on the other sideof South Africa at the time so
we weren't experiencing thedrought and I was speaking to a

(18:12):
lot of friends about using graywater in their toilets, all this
kind of survival instinct stuff, but I wasn't thinking about
the sports clubs at the time.
So I mean, how did you go aboutgathering this level of detail
across this many disasters,across this many sports?
What does your Excelspreadsheet look like?

Maddy (18:25):
So I'll be honest, a lot of this work wasn't Excel
spreadsheet, it was years andyears and years of building
networks and relationships, andthen those networks and
relationships build networks andrelationships, like it kind of
is a snowball effect.
I was really fortunate in myPhD to have people around me
Ingrid Schneider, tiffanyRichardson, like people who come
from sports, and people whocome from like forest service

(18:45):
and like just kind of all overthe place.
Um, steve Kelly is thecommissioner of commerce in
Minnesota now who really kind offocused my attention on the
fact that you're not going toget this done unless you've got
good networks and unless youmake yourself someone people can
trust to talk to.
And I spent a lot of timebuilding networks, a lot of time
building networks, and there'slike more than a hundred

(19:06):
interviews in the book that youactually get to see in terms of,
like I named their names and Italk about them, but there's
hundreds more that are notshared because they were part of
research projects that wereprotected by ethics board and so
I can't tell you who said thatand how I got that information
specifically.
But you, you build it over time.
I think when you become, youknow one of the people who does

(19:26):
the thing like I've kind ofbecome the person who does
adaptation work in in sport itopens a lot of doors.
Um, and I think the other partof that is when you like, it
took me a really long time tolearn how to tell these stories
in a sensitive way, in aninclusive way, with language
that the folks that I'm talkingabout would appreciate and
recognize.
So I spend a lot of timechecking my language as well,

(19:47):
sending you know bits and scrapsto different people and saying,
hey, did I represent you?
Well, is that how you want thatto be shared?
And the more you build thatpractice of like not just the
ethics around research but therelationships of research, the
more doors open and people willpass you to their friend or
their buddy because they knowthat you'll treat that
respectfully.
So, basically, everywhere Iwent, I was on book research

(20:10):
trips for the better part of twoyears and everywhere I went,
extra doors were open justbecause I just tried to be
friendly and like I'm here tohelp.
I want to tell your story ashonestly as I can, as generously
as I can.
I want people to know whathappened here so that we can
avert disaster elsewhere, andwhen you frame it like that,
people are usually in good faith, willing to help.

Ben (20:32):
I think that network point is so important.
It's a little bit why I startedthis podcast.
And it's funny where, like, Idon't know if I can keep doing
this podcast forever andprobably not, and I know you've
dabbled in podcasting and it'svery hard, especially when you
have other focuses in theprimary workload.
But it is this weirdserendipitous type of thing
where people have messaged mebecause they've heard an episode
that I would never have knownthat they existed.

(20:53):
So like if someone says what'sthe goal for the podcast?
If it ended today, it'sachieved a lot.
I mean probably even me and you.
Having this conversation wasfacilitated by it in some way.
So that's that's cool.
But then I agree, especiallythat kind of secondhand thing.
I have a great deal of respectto a people who are willing to
say oh, thank you for asking methis, it's not about me, but I

(21:13):
know someone else, and that'sthat's that's powerful, because
often we want to kind of grabhold of it, take ownership of
everything that we can.

Maddy (21:19):
Yeah, and it's one of those things too where, like
often, the person who is mostimpacted by something is the
most vulnerable.
So there's a vulnerabilitypiece here as well where I'm
aware of like I'm a white cishetwoman from a privileged
background.
I have a lot of knowledge andtraining which puts a lot of
power in my hands and I'm anoutsider in a lot of places.
So me going into like a skicommunity pretty easy people

(21:42):
will talk to me.
Me going into a place likerural Puerto Rico different
story, right.
So like there's a whole levelof trust building and
relationship building that hasto happen in order to get
anything worthwhile.
But it's worth it.
It's worth building thoserelationships and having those
conversations and figuring outhow to build community in places
and be in community with people.
Like it's all about reciprocity.

(22:03):
And that's something actually Ilearned from Indigenous
scholars here in Canada whoearly in my career were like
look, if you're going to go intocommunity and it's vulnerable
communities or recentlytraumatized communities, it's
got to be about reciprocity.
Lead with reciprocity.
How can you help them?
Bring that first, and if youcan bring something useful to
them knowledge, information,connections, resources then ask

(22:24):
a favor after, and that goes along way and that's a practice
that goes back eons inindigenous practice, but it like
and it's so obvious to like, dothem a favor before you ask for
a favor, but it goes a long way.
So if any researchers arelistening, I would say always
bring.

Ben (22:43):
Here's how I want to help before you start asking for
personal information and favors,yes, the old um the
co-production of knowledge, butalso in like an authentic sense,
not just saying, oh, weco-produced this knowledge and
then don't give us any evidenceof how or why, or who was
benefiting.

Maddy (22:55):
And there's some stories that you can't tell, like
there's some stories they'regoing to tell you and you can't,
that's not yours to share.

Ben (23:07):
Yes, exactly.
Or knowing when to realize thatsomeone else is doing a better
job of telling that story andput your weight behind them
rather than trying to set thestage.
So now, talking of, like, thedisadvantaged communities, often
particularly, I think, from apersonal perspective in Southern
Africa, we see the effects ofclimate change are very present
and you talk about quite a fewexamples in the book, and the
causes are largely around theglobal North, which is, I know,

(23:28):
a term we don't like, but wehave no other term.
Really, what do you thinksports role is in there?
Because I always worry that andyou know that we see some
evidence of this, but thenevidence the other way that when
you have a community that is,you know, wiped out by a flood
or something, sport goes to theback of the mind, like when I'm
worried about sport, worriedabout a house, worried about
food.
Is that a case where we justsay, right, sports is going to
take a backseat until thiscommunity is back on its feet?
Or is there a role for sportthere in the adaption sense?

Maddy (23:49):
Yeah, there's always a role.
There's always a role, right.
And I think the piece thatsport needs to rediscover,
because it used to do thisreally, really, really well, is
to go where you're needed.
So not necessarily where youwant to go as a commercial
property, as whatever, but gowhere you're needed.
And for generations, sportfacilities, sport structures,

(24:10):
have been used as places whereemergency resources can be
distributed, where people cangather.
In the case of an emergency inPuerto Rico I keep going back to
Puerto Rico, but I spent sometime there they use their
basketball courts and theirbaseball diamonds as the sites
where helicopters can land, soon a baseball diamond to
distribute food, and then theyget trucked off to to the

(24:31):
basketball courts, because thebasketball courts are clear and
hard surface and weren't superdamaged by the storm, and so you
can drive a truck right onto itand serve food to people and
distribute medical supplies, andpeople know where that is right
.
Like if you told me, oh, go tothis address in your community.
I've lived in Toronto most ofmy life.
I was gone for 15 years now andback.
But if you told me, go toso-and-so address, like I don't

(24:52):
know that I necessarily wouldknow where that is.
But I know where the baseballdiamond is and when there's no
electricity and there's no comms, that's easy, like I know.
I know where the park is,that's easy, I can get there,
and that's an easy thing tospread by word of mouth.
And there's many, manycountries who operate that way.
I was just on the phone,actually last night, with folks
in Oceania, the Solomon Islands,where they've just been hit by

(25:14):
storm after storm and it's it'spretty dire, and they, they too,
are using some of their sportfacilities to be at the center
of the response plan, becausepeople know where it is right.
It's the center of thecommunity in more ways than one,
and it can't just be the centerof the community when in good
times it's gotta be the centerin bad times.
We saw that with COVID.
We saw that across the world,emergency hospitals are being

(25:34):
erected in sports stadiumsbecause they had the space.
That's great.
How do we do more of that?
And so I would say that,especially in places where
resources are scarce, your sportfacilities can be places of
healing, they can be places ofbringing people together, they
can be places of resourcedistribution and the rest of the
world who plays that sport, whoknows that sport should be

(25:54):
showing up in those places tooand saying, hey, we're here to
help.
So, if it's I talked about, likePakistan and the floods, there
was a soccer team in one of theheavily impacted areas where
everybody was basically out oftheir homes.
The soccer pitch was slightlyraised and so it was dry, and
that's where everyone came tothrow their tents.
But the rest of the soccerplaying or football playing

(26:16):
world like that's where we allneed to show up, like where are
they, how can we help?
And they're using the pitchesbecause they know where it is
and how to get there and thatit's going to be safe.
Um, and that their strength innumbers by being together in
that moment.
How can the rest of thefootball world show up and
actually be there, too, withthem?
And not necessarily like let'shave a bunch of rich white
people show up, but like sendyour funds, send your support,

(26:40):
get your football team to sendit there.
And that's an aligned messagethat works.
People get it Like if you, if I, show up to a football game and
they're saying hey, there'speople who really need our help
in the football community, inthis place, and they're using
football stadiums and here's howfootball is helping them.
Let's help too.
That's a message that worksevery time.

Ben (26:57):
Yes, and I think that's particularly pointed at, like
the more community, communitylevel scales.
What I mean by that isparticularly the ownership of
the facilities.
If the facilities are owned bysome private equity, overseas
whatever, then maybe thatdoesn't seem like an option
because it the even though thestadium is in front of you.
It seems quite alien, whereasso many sporting communities,
like everyone knows the owner oreveryone knows the coach or

(27:19):
this kind of stuff.
So it's quite symbiotic, it'squite instantaneous, it's like,
coach, we need the team to chipin on this and it's like
instantaneous, and I think it'simportant we don't move too far
away from that kind of stuff.
So let's talk about somebureaucracy, because we have to.
You have been kind of bridgingthe gap, as I'm trying to do it,
I guess, between industry andacademia, and both the sports

(27:42):
industry and the sort of broaderindustry.
What are the big challenges?
What are the big tips?
What comes across in the bookthat's important for us to
improve on?

Maddy (27:48):
Yeah, that's a really good question.
So as I was writing the book, Iwas also writing the Sports for
Nature report for UNEP and aswe got towards the end of that,
you know, politics always creepin different perspectives,
different outcomes that they'relooking for in that, and I kind
of tease that at the end of thebook a little bit.
But there's there's always astruggle between making an ask

(28:09):
of sport and and asking too muchto the point where people are
going to run away.
So what I was trying to do withthis book and as I was going
through it, I was learning a lotas well about, you know, my
friend.
I have quite a few friends andI'm grateful to them, who I, you
know, bounced ideas off ofthroughout the book.
They work in various pro andelite sport organizations around
the world and my big questionwas like how hard can I push

(28:32):
sport right now?
Is this the time that I canpush really hard?
And and the other, like there'sthere's dynamics to that,
because I would love to saysport, do more right now.
Like you've got a lot of money,I know you do, don't lie, um.
And the other part of me knowsthat it just in the last few
years we've seen way more sportorganizations pick up
sustainability.
In-house teams commit money toit, run campaigns meaningful

(28:55):
campaigns they're trying and andthose folks can sometimes be in
the caught in the line of firewhen people like me go on BBC or
go on ESPN and start attackingand saying sport's not doing
enough, and then my WhatsAppgroup blows up saying Maddie,
back off.
And so I'm in that weird kindof liminal space between I'm an

(29:17):
academic, my paycheck comes fromoutside sport, I'm secure and
my role is to be honest aboutwhat I see, to report on
findings as I know them and Iknow that and that's sometimes a
hard job and also to drivechange.
I run the sport ecology group.
Part of our mission is, likeour mission statement literally
has to drive change in the sportsector through education,

(29:40):
events and resources.
And is that not what we're allmeant to do as educators is to
drive change right.
So sometimes that means it'suncomfortable.
Sometimes that means sayingthis isn't good enough and, as
the person who has flown intoplaces that are on the front
lines and as the person who isnot just yelling at the sport
machine, saying reduce yourtransport because of climate

(30:03):
change, and generally like I canactually tell you.
This is what happens to peoplewhen we don't take care of this
properly.
These are the outcomes and I'llI'll spell them out.
They're grim.
I come at it from a place oflike.
It's deeply personal.
It's people in communities thatI know and care about that are
on the front lines, and so Iexpect and I want more from

(30:24):
sport, especially elite prosport.
I don't see it right now and Iknow you agree, we've had those
conversations a lot.
It's not where it needs to beon the sustainability front.
That said, I worked really hardin this book, in this, in the
kind of that last third where Igo through.
Here's what's been happening ingreen sports.
Here's where it needs to go.
I tried really hard to frame itin a way that there is good

(30:47):
stuff happening and there's goodpeople on it and they're trying
.
We need way more.
My attacks and critiques are notnecessarily on the
sustainability manager atso-and-so organization.
That's never the case.
It's never about the individuals.
It's about the highest levelsof ownership and management who
are allocating dollars toprojects and making big
decisions about, systematically,how we're going to function
into the future.

(31:07):
That's who I'm targeting when Icritique sport and, as a result
, I was very careful tocelebrate the stuff that's worth
celebrating and there's lots ofit and to try to not be too too
critical of sport yet, becauseI also recognize that for many
organizations this is a newconversation, so some have been
at it for a long time and I tryto highlight that, but for the

(31:29):
majority, this is a conversationthat started in like 2018,
right, so like.
Just because I've been at itfor 10 years and others have
been working longer, likedoesn't mean that every
organization knows, and sohopefully this book also will
generate conversation and raiseawareness.
I wrote it in a way, hopefully,that's accessible and not
academic really at all.
I tried to go more for like ajournalistic voice and that was

(31:54):
really intentional to invitemore people into the
conversation as opposed topushing them away.

Ben (31:59):
Yes, and I think that point about the sustainability
manager is good, where I'malmost not interested in hearing
what a sustainability managerhas to say on some kind of panel
, because I know that they'vebeen given talking points they
might not even agree with andthey've probably tried to push
things internally that were,yeah, what's the right phrase?
Kiboshed, and actually if youspeak to them over a beer later
in the day they might give you alittle bit more insights,

(32:21):
obviously off the but then wecan see that those conversations
are happening at least, andeventually, well, they either
have to tip over into somethingmore meaningful or, yeah, these
organizations will be leftbehind, I guess.

Maddy (32:32):
Yeah, but it's a fine line, right, like I'm cheering
on the sustainability managersbecause I know they're having a
tough conversation with theirboss every day when they go to
work and I know they're fightingan uphill battle internally.
So I'm cheering them on and, atthe same time, not hating on
but like sending all of theshade at their bosses, who
aren't supporting them enough.
Like why isn't that persongetting more help?
Why is it not getting morebudget?
I know that most of theseorganizations and I know you've

(32:55):
had folks like Chen on the showwho will have talked about
things like capitalism and thefact that we have to make money
that's the stakeholder privacyprinciple is still alive and
well, and so I know thatfunctionally, that's how people
are evaluated in their jobs.
I get it, but at the same time,do better and like I mean that
at like an organizational level,not as a critique of the

(33:17):
individual sustainabilitymanagers I know they're doing
their best.

Ben (33:21):
Yes, and it's funny you reflected on, like the security
of your paycheck Cause I thinkI'm now obviously at
Loughborough, london, which isyour former place of work, but
Loughborough has a huge degreeof funding that comes from their
not production, that's thewrong word but their throughput
of elite athletes.
So many great players come outof Loughborough so they get
funding from elite sports.
So if elite sport were toshrink revenues, for example,

(33:41):
loughborough would be affectedin some way and maybe I wouldn't
have got the position I'm innow.
And then even at a bigger level, I currently live in the UK, a
country that is wealthy in partfor some very dubious actions
over the last 500 years, andthen I'm a white South African
guy.
Come on, who am I actuallygoing to be accusing of
wrongdoing at this point?
As I said, at the individuallevel, at the organizational

(34:04):
level, I think it is easier to,oh it's more important to make
these arguments, because we'retalking about systemic shifts
and I guess it's difficultbecause it does sometimes start.
I always want to encourage thesustainability manager at
whatever organization to have ahard conversation with their
boss, even if it doesn't workthe first 15 times.
But, it's better than nothing.

Maddy (34:21):
I also would just add to that, if you're a sustainability
manager and you're listening tothis and you're like I am
fighting that uphill battle ever, like tell us, join us.
Like have a conversation withBen.
Have a conversation Like we arehappy to hash it out,
strategize with you.
Like there are people who wantto help you make this work.
And yeah, your boss is going tosay no the first 15 times, but
guess what, on the 16th, maybeyour argument is refined enough.

(34:42):
So, like, lean on the rest ofus and I know there's group
chats and there's conversationsand there's side things going on
.
My WhatsApp is blowing up everyday with sustainability group
chats.
I'm in like lean on thecommunity because the rest of us
are here cheering you on,wanting you to succeed.

Ben (34:57):
But now let's talk about more bureaucracy, but now this
time on the side of the academy,as they call it, which I
despise.

Maddy (35:03):
What a mess.

Ben (35:04):
Exactly Academics, because I must say I was a bit naive for
many years where I worked inrenewables, so it's private
sector.
I've worked in the nonprofitsector and sometimes do, and I
always kind of put academia onthe top.
I was like right, but academiais where the buck stops, this is
where objective truth is foundand not always Quite a few

(35:26):
interesting folks in academia.
Tell us a little bit about someof your experiences, some of
the pushback, I guess, some ofthe appropriate critiques,
inappropriate critiques.

Maddy (35:35):
You know, to be in academia is to develop a thick
skin and to do it fast.
You know you get more no's thanyeses in academia and I think a
lot of that gets hidden becauseno one's posting on Twitter
about their fourth rejection forthat article that they wrote.
That no one seems to like.
I think it's, in a way, easierto be in academia than being on
the front lines of, like,actually working in sport and
doing the thing, because we getto sit back and just talk about

(35:58):
the thing.
But in other ways I think a lotof people look at the academy
and they're like oh okay, likeMaddie, your job is to teach and
to do research, and that's true.
But you can't teach unlessyou're actually in touch with
folks who are doing it, becauseyou're going to be 10 years out
of date pretty fast.
You can't do research in myworld as a social scientist and
like my training is kind of insocial science and climate, like

(36:21):
natural resources.
So I kind of I'm dually trained, but most of my work is social
science and like the humanimpacts of climate change, and
you can't do it without havingrelationships.
So I have to keep those doorsopen.
It's not an option.
It's mandatory for my job andat the same time, it's not
valued necessarily in theacademy to do that.
So the academy wants you to doresearch that is publishable.

(36:45):
The model that is like dominantaround that the way grant
funding works, the way youadvance in your career, is to
publish a lot, to get a lot ofgrant money.
Like there's no grant money insport.
No one really gets grant money.
Like there's some, it tricklesoccasionally.
It's rare because there's thisexpectation that if you're
working in sport, theprofessional leagues and the
money that's in sport is goingto fund your work.

(37:06):
And again, that's not how itworks.
So there's a lot of politicsinvolved.
There's also always challengesaround justifying.
You have to justify what you'redoing as an academic.
Every time you do a study it'sgoing to be in the intro Like
this is why we have to do this.
This is why this is important.
I deal in research that is notnecessarily life and death

(37:28):
stakes, although sometimes it isbut it's not like I'm curing
cancer, like that's not what I'mdoing.
Most of the time I'm kind ofgetting into the nitty gritty of
like how this impacted acommunity's mental health or
what it did to their sportsfacilities which, like, some
people just view as like, notthat important.
And I get a lot of shade onTwitter, for example, a lot of
trolls who will be like sportsdon't matter in the context of

(37:50):
climate change, why focus onthat?
And then, behind closed doors,I'm getting it in the academy
too.
The peer scientists will belike we don't need this.
You know social scienceapproach to climate change.
I would argue we absolutely do.
But you'll get it from thatangle.
You'll get it from othercolleagues who are like, well,
why, why do this in sport?
Like they're in sport and theydon't see it.
So again, like there's alwaysfolks who are not going to get

(38:13):
it, but there's a lot of peoplewho do, and those are the ones
I'm interested in talking to andI just kind of blur out the
noise and try not to pay toomuch attention.
But the being at Loughboroughwas a bit of a weird one for me
because you know at the time Ithink he still is, but he's on
his way out Seb Coe was thechancellor, which he's also the

(38:33):
president of, world Athletics.
I have contracts with WorldAthletics.
World Athletics, I like, wascontracted with them to deliver
training to their athletes,based on some of my athlete
activism research to talk aboutclimate change and to train them
up on that.
While we were like in themiddle of that contract, world
athletics develop or put out newrules around trans inclusion

(38:56):
and part of the training wasLGBTQ plus inclusion and how to
talk about it as an athlete, andthen they came out with that.
So it's this weird like there'salways a power dynamic to
navigate.
I try to think about it in thesense of like.
Is my work grounded in research?
If it is, I'm usually okay.
Is it the right thing to doLike?
Is it the right thing to dobecause it's good for someone's

(39:17):
paycheck?
Or is it just like I'm on theright side of history on this
and I'm protecting those closestto pain?
If that's the answer, I'musually okay and I'll take the
hit on the backend for whateverpolitics come up.

Ben (39:29):
Yes, I think that's a good lesson as well, and I think,
particularly with something likeclimate change, we're not going
to solve it, probably even mylifetime, my kid's lifetime, but
like-.

Maddy (39:38):
Oh God, I hope we solve it in your lifetime, ben, come
on.

Ben (39:40):
Well, you say that I mean you know, we, we can probably
get some big wins, but completefixing it I don't know.
But the point is, I thinkthere's still something
important to be able to sit downwith your kids one day, your
grandkids, and say, listen, Itried in good faith for what I
thought was the best way to doit at the time.
And I know that sounds a littlebit like what's the phrase

(40:07):
navel gazing, you know, likesort of self-involved, like
self-righteous, but it's, youknow, we all, we all.
There's that that psychologicaltrope.
We all overvalue ourselves orlike we over emphasize how
important we are in anysituation.
But to some degree, if we allact in good faith, then that
creates the kind of movement orthe change that, yeah, we want.
And obviously you've had a fewsetbacks but you've had plenty
of wins along the way.
So that kind of is testament tothe process.

Maddy (40:26):
Yeah, yeah, and that's just how it's going to be always
right.
Like you're going to apply togrants I've applied to more
grants that I haven't gottenthan that I have and I think
that's normal.
I've submitted more journalarticles that have been rejected
than that have been accepted,and that's normal.
Like it's all normal, it's allpart of it.
You just keep going, like it'sworth it to keep going, and I
think that's the.
That's the toughness I wastalking about at the beginning,

(40:47):
where, like, you're going to geta lot of no's and you've got to
be ready to say yes foryourself, but yes, it's still
worth it and yes, I'm stillgoing to do it and it's, in the
long haul, going to add up,it'll be worth something at the
end of this.

Ben (41:02):
Yes, but it's interesting when it gets a bit personal, and
you picked up a few of yourpersonal stories there.
But there was one youreferenced in the book about a
colleague I can't remember hername, but was it someone
Professor de Jong, at theUniversity of Strasbourg, where,
yeah, could you tell us aboutthat tale, because I think it
was in a footnote and my mindwas just blown?

Maddy (41:19):
Yeah, so Carmen Dijon, hydrologist based in France,
wonderful person genuinely, andwe only met like a couple of
years ago.
We were on, we were getting onthe same media calls, actually
around around the time of theBeijing Olympics and there was a
hundred percent artificial snowand we were putting out a
report on it and she'd just putout research on it, and so she
and I started running in thesame circles, kind of quite a

(41:41):
lot.
We knew of each other buthadn't connected until then, and
so we chatted then and wechatted again last year, right
as I was finishing up the book,and on one of the calls she
shared and like I had to doubleand triple and quadruple check
that, she was cool with mesharing this because it's tricky
, right, there are folks whodon't want us to do what we do.
There's a lot of peopleactually who don't want us to do

(42:04):
what we do.
Everyone who makes money onsport and would rather just keep
making money on sport and notcaring.
Those people find me and Carmenvery annoying.
So Carmen's work as ahydrologist is to look at the
availability of fresh water inmountainous regions and how that
water is being used and whereit's being allocated and what
the water rights are, et cetera,et cetera.
She started discovering about10 years ago that there is over
pulling of water happening byski resorts because they're not

(42:27):
getting enough snow.
So if you don't get enough snow, you have to pull water in
order to make snow.
And if you've got a reservoirthat is emptied after a few runs
, you said like suddenly, whereare you going to get the water?
And she started finding thatthey're pulling it out of like
boreholes and pulling it out ofmunicipal systems and there's
just places that it shouldn'tcome from.
She started publishing thatwork and the ski industry was

(42:50):
not pleased about it and startedputting quite a lot of pressure
on her university to fire herand shut down her lab.
And they managed to succeed.
So they actually got quoteunquote rid of her, except that
she basically was like I'm notgoing to stop because I have
academic freedom.
So she challenged it.
She was able to stay in herrole, but without pay, as they

(43:10):
were in.
This legal challenge went on foryears three years to just about
every court in France.
Ultimately she was allowed tokeep her job because she didn't
break any academic rules, shedidn't have any gross misconduct
and ultimately, the reason thatshe was being they were trying
to put her out to pasture wasbecause of politics and the fact
that skiing really dominatesthe industry in that area and
they didn't want to be critiquedout loud by someone credible.

(43:32):
So she went through years oflegal battles and she didn't get
paid during that time.
So she was working without payfor years.
You know, a bunch of her gradstudents couldn't continue, et
cetera, and eventually she wonthe case.
They had to back pay her for itbecause she'd done nothing
wrong except do her job.
That unfortunately had bad newsfor the ski industry.

(43:53):
But she was saying like itruined it for her, like she
doesn't ski anymore.
She like her mental health tooka hit for years, thank goodness
, like she's partnered and herpartner has a good job and they
were able to kind of maintainthe home for their kids and so
there weren't kind ofdevastating impacts to lifestyle
, but there were devastatingimpacts to everything else.

Ben (44:13):
Absolutely terrifying when it gets that personal and
particularly.
You know, some people still saysports, not political.
I mean my God like, if you everneed an example.
What's particularly terrifyingabout that as well is that the
outcome was they were stillgoing to run out of water.
You know what I mean.
It's not like she wasadvocating for I should be paid
more or something beneficial toher.
Like her research is a warningflag of something bad happening

(44:35):
in the future and it could beprevented, and that's that's the
reaction.

Maddy (44:42):
But that's you know.
It echoes what happened in the70s with the researchers who
were at places like Exxon thathad in-house researchers looking
at climate change, and in the70s they discovered that their
operations were going to havedevastating impacts on the
planet and the reaction withinthe company, within the oil
companies, was to close thescience office, fire all the
scientists and shut down all theresearch and like, had a bunch

(45:03):
of folks sign NDAs.
They couldn't actually talkabout the research that they'd
done, that had found thesedevastating impacts.
So it harkens back to the samething.
The people who benefit offdestroying the planet are going
to continue to shut down thepeople who throw a flag on the
play and say stop like, stophurting the planet, planet.
We are going to be unpopularamongst those people.

Ben (45:23):
Yes, exactly, okay.
So final note and I think thisis quite an important one and I
guess it could be two topicsthere's always the accusation of
hypocrisy around both athletes,who try and engage in this kind
of conversation, but alsoacademics, and I actually think
there's been too much heat onathletes and not enough heat on
academics around our ownlifestyles.
And, yeah, I was trying toadvocate for more sustainable.

(45:44):
There's more sustainable that,and actually after this, we
should talk about the wordsustainable.
That's the proper end.
But, yeah, how do we, how doyou at least balance this
argument of having a high carbonlifestyle to do the work that
you do, but then advocating fora low carbon society?

Maddy (46:01):
Yeah, okay, so like.
But then advocating for, yeah,a low-carbon society, yeah, uh,
okay, so like.
I'm the first to say I am ahypocrite and I think I
literally like, I quote TaylorSwift like it's me, hi, I'm the
problem.
It's me in the book, because itis like I know that I fly to do
my research, I fly toconferences, I am on a plane a
lot like a lot, a lot like anembarrassing amount and I, my

(46:25):
husband and I, have had many,many heart to hearts about this.
My husband, for those who don'tknow, um is also an academic
sports sociologist and we havequite a few conversations about
the ethics of that.
I'm at the point right now wherethere's gotta be two reasons
for me to be going somewhere.
So that's one of the ways Ibalance it, for myself is like
it can't just be that there's aconference.
If I'm going to a place for aconference, I'm also touching

(46:47):
base with folks in the communitythat I might know or people
that I don't know, that I shouldbe aware of.
I'm visiting local nonprofitsand making connections.
I'm trying to find ways tobuild community.
Wherever I go, we offseteverything we do.
We're partnered with anorganization here in Canada, an
indigenous led woman led projectout on the West coast, and
that's in the book too.
So I share, I share that.

(47:10):
I try to be transparent aboutit.
It's not perfect.
Offsets are like very solidlymedium, at best and only if
they're good offset projectslike still only medium.
And I, it's hard, I like.
I know that in the next fewyears my life is there's going
to have to be some major changesand I am thinking through what
are the places that I'm going tofocus on so that I'm flying
only to a couple of places andfor prolonged visits as opposed

(47:32):
to like just three weeks.
Like how do I build that in?
Here's the thing.
I think structurally there isno perfect answer and I don't
think there's individualsolutions to common problems
either.
So I think putting the emphasison any individual is not really
a fair thing.
I know that and that's fine.

(48:04):
I'd rather hold high, like holdhigh standards for myself and
everyone in my community and andfind ways within a broken
system to still do good work.
And for me right now that meansI still fly, but I don't eat
meat.
I don't drive a car.
We walk and take transiteverywhere.
Like when I'm in a place, I'mvery low carbon, flying is my
one thing and because I doresearch internationally, like
I'm in a place.
I'm very low carbon, flying ismy one thing and because I do
research internationally, likeI'm a field worker.

(48:24):
But that also means that, like,my office at the university is
like the size of a closet.
I don't have a whole lab.
I don't like everything getsunplugged when I leave the room,
like I am very, very good aboutit within the places I operate
and I think you make the changesyou can make right.
Like no one's mad at a singlemom for driving a van because
she's got three kids that haveto get to school and then she's

(48:46):
got to get to work and there'sno public transit or option to
walk.
Like we can't be mad at thatperson because they're making
the choices they have.
I've made certain choices formy career and for what I hope is
bringing benefit everywhere Igo.
Again, it's about thatreciprocity.
So I'm not going to a placeunless I can offer something to
them as well.
And it's not perfect and that'sjust what it is.

(49:07):
I'm looking forward to thingslike electric flights.
There's an eco-athlete based inthe US right now who's working
on electric planes that can.
I think it's up to 40passengers and they're going
live in about a year.
So, like that's, like there isstuff happening and I try to
keep on top of that and promotethat.
It's not perfect.

(49:29):
I also think, though, that,like we're not going to
individual solution, our way outof a big systemic problem Like
this is going to have to becoming from the top.
So it's tricky.
There's no perfect answer tothis one.
I'm happy to say I'm part ofthe problem.
I am, and that's okay.

Ben (49:42):
I mean, I always.
I always try and put it in thecontext of like my own
historical record versus like mycurrent actions, cause I really
have not zeroed but minimize myflying in recent years, but up
until about 2018, I flew a lotand I've traveled the world to
some to a greater degree thanany person in history probably
thought they could prior to atleast the industrial revolution.

(50:03):
So then it's weird for me nowto tell people not to fly
because I've seen so much stuffand maybe they haven't.
And I mean bringing theconversation back to sport,
there's a lot of talk about theGerman Euros that's coming up,
the men's football tournament,where a lot of that stuff can
now be done by train becausethey have the infrastructure.
But then I was in aconversation the other day about
saying, well, why can't theAfrica Cup of Nations do that?
And I'm like, well, that's abit chicken in the egg, right?

(50:25):
Because they don't have theinfrastructure.
Maybe and this is where sportcould come in sport can
encourage them to build theinfrastructure.
And obviously there's a lot ofconversations about Africa
trying to leapfrog, but tryingto leapf in the same way because
there's so much harm of theindustrialization process that
happened.
What I do struggle with, I think, is particularly and I like
that you gave like twoprinciples around when you make

(50:47):
a decision to take the action,particularly with academics.
I don't know why we're shoutingat sports stars so much.
When a sports star flies, theyhave to.
The game that they are beingpaid to play in is there.
With academics, oh, I'm gettingsome weird ones where you know,
I spoke to a colleague theother day where her and a
colleague would go to aconference in one of the Spanish
islands, so they had to flyspecifically because they wanted

(51:08):
to go to one of the Spanishislands, and so they'd found the
conference and I'm like, okay,you're already the wrong way
around there, like that's a redflag.
But then there are two subjectmatters One was sustainability
and the other one was businessauthenticity, and I'm like, but
that is the least authenticthing I've ever heard.
So you know what I mean.
That's where I get a little bitfrustrated about it, cause I
agree with you and your book isto some degree a testament to

(51:30):
your actions, but there's somany people who are flying and
picking on flying but, as yousay, as many other actions that
are so high carbon whereeveryone thinks they're the
solution.
In that sense and you know, Iagree, there's no.
Those people are good and thosepeople are bad.
That's not how it works.
But sometimes when you hearthings like that, it's like we
need to change some norms aroundthis.
I think, as much as I agree,it's not about the individual.

Maddy (51:51):
I also think that, like the majority of the flying that
I do is for my research, like asa field worker, I can't do my
work from my desk.
It's not an option.
A lot of folks can do theirresearch from their desk If
they're doing survey work or ifthey're doing lab-based work.
It actually does happen wherethey work every day.
Mine doesn't.
That's not how it works.

(52:12):
Like I can't describe and do thework that I have to do without
physically being on site, andthen that's like there's not a
whole lot of field workers insport, and so I think that's
kind of quite like HollyCollison's another one and we've
had that conversation before oflike our research requires us
to go.
That's not common, and so thefolks who do have that built

(52:34):
into the research model, I think, are those like that I've had
the best conversations witharound how to be good about it.
There's a lot of people inacademia who just want to go to
that place or just attend thatconference and that I have a
harder time with.
But I would say I just becamethe head of the environmental
committee for the North Americansociety for sports sociology
and like the big conversationswe're having right now are okay,

(52:54):
great, like what's the onlineattendance option?
Because I'd love that to be anoption for sport, positive as
well for all these conferencesaround what we do like.
How do we reduce the obligationto fly, especially when it
comes to conferences?

Ben (53:08):
Yes, and I think particularly for young academics
and, I guess, young athletesyou know I'm kind of talking
about them in tandem it's soimportant that you show up,
because that's how you build areputation, but then maybe both
as a sign of privilege, but alsoto the more established names.
When is it time for you to pullback?
Because when you're a latestage researcher, flying to a
conference isn't going to changeyour career, but for a 21 year
old it might do, andparticularly with field work.

(53:30):
I agree with you, if we wantthe level of depth and again you
raised the question of shouldit be you first Like question
the word sustainability.
It's in the name of thispodcast, it's in the name of
almost all of anything me andyou have ever written.
What's going on with this word?
Because I feel like it's losingits meaning and I might even

(53:53):
change the name of the podcast.

Maddy (53:55):
I mean like, yeah, I lost all its meaning years ago,
right, so I continue to use it.
I think people have a positiveview of sustainability.
The sense that people get whenthey hear it is that it's a good
thing, and I think there'ssomething potent in that and
powerful that we should not justtotally kind of throw the baby
out with the bathwater.
But at the same time I hate it,and I will use the word hate.

(54:17):
I don't use it often.
I hate the word sustainability,and here I am as, like the
climate girl B, it doesn't meananything anymore.
It did.
It did right when the Club ofRome wrote about it in the 70s
and it was kind of the earlydays of thinking about
sustainability in this forwardsense.
And it meant two things.
It meant taking care of theneeds of everybody right now

(54:37):
Everybody, not just some peoplewho are privileged everybody.
And it meant looking into thefuture and taking care of future
needs to make sure that folksindefinitely will have access to
resources they need to livefruitful lives.
Now I don't think we've doneeither one of them very well.
I think the term got co-optedin the 80s in the free market

(54:58):
era.
Economics started coming in, sowe had a huge stretch in the
80s in the free market era.
Economics started coming in.
So we had a huge stretch in the70s where and I talk about this
a little bit in the bookactually In the 70s there was a
huge push of green laws aroundthe world.
It's the era of the Clean Airand Clean Water Act in the US.
China had some of the mostradical policies in the world.
Russia had some really coolstuff going on.
The European Union adoptedpolicies, and these were

(55:20):
designed to reduce the negativeimpact that businesses were
having on their communities,because they were fouling the
commons pretty much everywhere.
And so laws came into place toprotect that, to protect the
rivers, to protect the air, etcetera, et cetera.
And companies freaked outbecause they were like wait a
second, we can't just follow thecommons in any way.
We want to.
That doesn't work because thisis going to cost us a lot of
money.
Just follow the commons in anyway we want to, like that

(55:42):
doesn't work because this isgoing to cost us a lot of money.
And so in the eighties theystart to push for deregulation,
they start to push for voluntaryaction, saying, okay, we're
going to come out of thegoodness of our heart, and we're
going to miss the companies,like we are going to take on
sustainability because it's theright thing to do, et cetera, et
cetera.
Well, 35, 40 years on, theyhaven't.
That's the truth.
And yet they've been involvedin every COP, they've been

(56:05):
involved in all of the bigmeetings, They've been at the
table, and I think that there'sroom for them to do more, and
we've seen bits of that.
We've seen examples oforganizations like Patagonia,
for example, that has dissolvedits profit imperative and now
donates all of the proceeds tocharity.
Is it perfect?
No, Is Patagonia still usingsome materials that maybe
shouldn't?
Yep.

(56:26):
Is it still much operated likea business, except without the
profit imperative?
Yep.
But fundamentally, I don't havea problem with business.
I have this problem with theidea that business and profit
imperatives can be sustainable,because they can't be, and I
think that this is like the ideaof sustainability, including
economic growth, is nonsense tome, because, fundamentally,

(56:46):
nothing is meant to growindefinitely.
If you look to nature, if youlook to societies, nothing is
meant to grow indefinitely.
Everything has a maturity pointand I don't think that's a bad
thing.
I think a maturity point isactually a great thing If we can
learn to the smallorganizations, family businesses
, whatever, like, yes, do it.
And then, once you reach apoint where you're meeting your

(57:07):
needs, stop growing, startmaturing, and that's going to be
a totally differentconversation that we have to
start having.
But it's a different form ofsustainability.
And if we want to move in thatdirection of maturity as opposed
to growth, great, I'm here forit.

(57:27):
But if, if sustainability isgoing to continue to be tied to
economic growth, I don't thinkit's possible because, frankly,
I don't think that capitalistsolutions are going to work for
a capitalist problem.

Ben (57:32):
Yes, and this is where I think, at least in this industry
intersection, I wish the sportsfolks would say let's put the
environmental argument first andthen the sport argument,
because if it's the other wayaround, you're never going to be
satisfied, You're never goingto be happy.
And the two reasons I maybewant to change the name of this
podcast is one no one seems tobe able to say it and I get it,
Obviously I've said it a milliontimes because I've heard myself

(57:53):
say it a million times inediting.
But two I once met a guy whothought that I meant.
He literally thought oh, youcan help me get rid of these
environmental activists so I cansustain my sport as it
currently is and I'm like well,that is a mistake for me to
leave that up intointerpretation, because that's
literally the opposite of what Iwant to do.
I want sport to, as you say, Ilike the word mature, mature in

(58:16):
a way, keep the magic.
Everyone throws the word magicin sport and obviously it's not
a tangible thing, but we've allfelt it.
If you like sport, you felt itand it'll change.
It'll come from differentplaces.
Why does it have to come from,buy this, go there, you know 85
games a year of whatever sport.
So, yeah, interesting.
But now just a tangential point.

(58:36):
You don't really discuss thegrowth issue within the book.
Is this because the differencebetween, maybe, adaptation or
mitigation, or is it slaying thegroundwork for some further
arguments?

Maddy (58:46):
Part of it's laying the groundwork.
Part of it is trying to bringpeople to the table as opposed
to push them away right off thebat.
I think some of my degrowthideas and maturity ideas are
maybe a little much for somefolks right now.
That's fine.
I think they're all going toget there.
I also think that the you knowyou'll never catch me calling
myself a sport sustainabilityperson.
I'm a sport ecologist and we usethat word intentionally and I

(59:12):
talk about that in the book too.
Like to specify.
It's about the environment.
It's about relationships andwellbeing within environmental
context.
But like I specifically didn'twant to push people away, I want
to bring people into theconversation.
I want to have honestconversations about where we've
been and I want to leave thediscussion about where we're
going a little bit up topeople's interpretation right
now, because I think there'sgoing to be different versions
of how we get there.
I think that's probably healthyat this stage.

(59:33):
I think it's going to be aboutmaturity and degrowth in some
cases Again, not degrowth foreverybody.
Like there's a lot of folks ina lot of communities that need
to continue to grow for avariety of meeting our needs
reasons that are very valid andI think that's great, but those
are the nuances that I justdidn't have space for in the
book and in this one, so maybethat's a future project.

Ben (59:53):
No, exactly, and it's not like there is consensus on
post-growth or degrowth amongsteven the environmentalists or
the political ecologists.
So while that debate is playingout, we obviously have to stay
on the pulse of it and stilltalk about sport.
But that is all the time Ithink I will take off you today,
maddy.
Thank you so much for your time.
Thank you for writing this book, and it's coming out in May.

Maddy (01:00:14):
Yeah, may 7th in the US and Canada, may 9th in UK Europe
.
Thanks Ben.
In UK Europe.
Thanks Ben.

Ben (01:00:25):
That was our episode with Maddie Orr.
If you found it interesting,you may want to get yourself a
copy.
The link is in the bio and Iagain encourage you, if you have
any thoughts or comments, toreach out to Maddie or myself.
You may have noticed by nowthat I like talking, but I can
listen as well.
The next episode may not be fora little while now, given other
outputs, but make sure you dosubscribe so you don't miss it

(01:00:47):
when it does come.
And, as always, thank you somuch for listening.
I really hope you enjoyed itand I'll see you in the next one
.
You

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Warming Up - How Climate Change is Changing Sport