007 - Overthinking Everything in Campus Housing | Jasmine Jennings and Sara Frick [Book Club] - SWACUHO Podcast

Episode Transcript
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J.C. Stoner (00:00):
Welcome to the SWACUHO podcast. I'm your host,

(00:03):
J.C. Stoner. Today we aretalking about overthinking
things. So if you're someone whotends to overthink things, this
episode is sure to validate thatyou aren't the only one. Our
guests today discuss the bookSoundtracks: The Surprising
Solution to Overthinking by JonAcuff. We apply the concepts to
the housing work environmentwith plenty of real examples

(00:23):
with the hope of articulatinghow we can all flip our personal
thought processes to be moreproductive rather than diving
headfirst down the rabbit holeof negative and unproductive
thoughts. I'm not going tooverthink this intro so let's
jump right in.
Our first guest is JasmineJennings, who serves as the
Assistant Director for theDedman College Interdisciplinary

(00:43):
Institute at Southern MethodistUniversity. Jasmine was born and
raised in Detroit, Michigan, andsays she will forever be a
Detroiter! Jasmine went toBowling Green State University
and Mississippi State Universityfor undergraduate and graduate
schoolwork. Jasmine formerlyworked in housing at Baylor
University and is now happilyenjoying her time living on at

(01:04):
Southern Methodist University'scampus with her fiance who is
also a res lifer! Jasmine,welcome to the show.

Jasmine Jennings (01:12):
Thank you for having me. I'm glad to be here.

Our second guest today is Sara Frick, who is a
sixth year professionalcurrently working at the
University of Texas at Arlingtonas an Assistant Director for
Apartment and Residence Life.
Sara's background in higher edhas been from both private and
public institutions working forresidence life and she is very
passionate about the studentexperience on campus. Sara loves
to read and read more than 50books in 2021. Sara, welcome to

(01:38):
the show.

Sara Frick (01:43):
Thanks. J.C. Thanks for having me.

So what are your overall general impressions of
the book Soundtracks?

Sara Frick (01:51):
Overall, I think that the concept of the book is
really fascinating. And I thinkthat's something that everybody
can relate to, you know,everybody overthinks things.
Especially since reading thebook, I've noticed a lot of
like, Sara, you're overthinkingthis, and it becomes more aware
to you, those things. And so Ithink overall, the concept is

(02:14):
fascinating. I think there'ssome really good things that we
can dive into a little bit moreon how people overthink and what
that looks like. But yes,overall, the concept is great. I
think maybe some of thepracticality will be interesting
to dive into of what ispractical pieces or things that
you can take away from it. But Ithink depending on the person,

(02:36):
some people would find it superpractical, and other people
might find it not. But theconcepts are very fascinating.

Yeah, I found the practicality like you similar in
the sense of like a lot of theexamples were about writing a
book and being a best seller,which, when you break down is a
little bit hard to translate toour work in campus housing. I
think there's plenty of goodexamples that I was able to
easily say, Oh, we can slideinsert campus housing in here,

(03:06):
but it was a little touchy feelyor like, a little too positive
for my personality. But I thinkthere's also value in exploring
that which I challenged myselfto do.

Sara Frick (03:18):
Yes, definitely.

Hopefully, I am not the devil's advocate on
the podcast today.

Please be if you are.

So I think overall, the book provided, you
know, general solutions tooverthinking. But I did not see
myself represented in this typeof overthinking and in the book.
And I also think the authordidn't acknowledge bias systems
and how that affectsoverthinking. And so when I

(03:49):
think about myself as a Blackwoman, and like things I am told
as a Black woman, like thatmakes me overthink. And I think
the concepts that he talkedabout on a surface level were
good, but I wish he would havedug deeper to address some of
the things that I experiencedthat causes my type of
overthinking.

Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, because I tried
to process with the practicalityof like, how it translates
forever is like, I really feltit wasn't like there was some of
that, like, oh, you're a bestselling author and you know,
sounds like you've had a realchallenging life or like these
things. Not really, but so I'mglad you brought that up. And I
definitely hope that we can diveinto that a little bit more. I

(04:32):
also think that while it was notmy favorite book I've ever read
that I think it's likeconference presentations where
sometimes you go to one that'sjust not good. But you can still
take something from it. Whetheror not the content was what you
expected.

Sara Frick (04:48):
Oh, yeah, definitely. I as I said, you
know, I kept thinking through"Oh, like, are you
overthinking?" and I thinkregardless of what I pulled from
the book, I think it allowed meto take some focus on how I'm
overthinking things, and thenhow I can personally work on it
myself, whether that's practicalthings from the book he talks
about, or other ways in which Iwant to do that. So I do think

(05:10):
that there's something that youcould easily pull away from this
book for sure.

Great. So why are we talking about soundtracks in
our heads?

Sara Frick (05:18):
The author uses this analogy of soundtracks similar
I can't remember if it's aninterview, I heard with the
to songs in a movie and thesoundtracks of that and music
that you listen to that that is,the internal... your thoughts
are your internal soundtrack inyour life so and that even more
so than music, you listen toyour thoughts all day, every

(05:39):
day. And so that plays an impacton your attitude. So if you
listen to a really crappy songover and over again, it's going
to put you in a bad mood, if youare listening to good songs,
it's gonna put you in a bettermood. So he kind of uses this
analogy of the soundtracks foryour thoughts and how you're

(06:00):
going through your day-to-day,and how that impacts your
actions and your life.
author or it was in the book,but I remember hearing or seeing
that if you think about just ina movie, a house. It's the
soundtrack that really shapesthe narrative of what's about to
happen. Like if it's fun lovingmusic, it's like, oh, we're in a

(06:24):
rom com. But if it's like,creepy, scary music, then it's
like, oh, here we are at ahorror movie, and that the
picture doesn't change. But thesoundtrack shifts the context of
what is actually going to begoing on.
Yeah, very true. They say, youknow, if you I don't like scary
movies, so I don't watch them.
But I've heard you know, if youwatch a scary movie without

(06:46):
noise, it's not scary at all,because half or more of the
scare of those movies comes fromthe music.

Well, yeah, that's a perfect illustration of why we
need to be mindful of thesoundtracks we're playing in our
head. Because if we remove that,then things aren't as bad or
they're going just fine. Butwe're deferring it to what a
negative outcome that isn'tnecessarily the case. So I think
that's a perfect illustration.

Sara Frick (07:15):
Yeah, definitely.

So what are some real examples of broken
soundtracks you've heard incampus housing?

I actually wrote some down that I heard
from past colleagues that Ithink it will be worth
exploring. So some of the ones Iwrote down were "my residents or
RAs don't like me like otherhall directors", "I'm bad at my
job because I'm not chairing themost important committee in my
department." "I don't deserve towork in a new residence hall

(07:45):
like a brand new one, because itwas given to another RHD." And
then I think the, I think, inthinking about COVID, and all
the things that have beenhappening, "I can't apply for
another job, I'll be abandoningmy students or abandoning my
department." I think those arethe most consistent ones that
I've heard since my time inresidence life. I don't know if

(08:07):
y'all have experienced thoseeither.

Sara Frick (08:10):
Yeah, I can definitely relate to those, I
think a common thread with a lotof those that you are saying
Jasmine, is that comparisonpiece, I feel like oh, compared
to other RDs, or HDs, you know,this is where I stand, oh,
compared to other committees andthings like that. And, you know,
not every job or field has a lotof people on one level in the

(08:35):
way that universities that havehall directors. And so I think
that that plays an interestingpiece in comparison and how that
leads to people to overthinktheir position and their job.

And you know, probably doesn't help either
that, you know, you live whereyou work. And so you see up
close and personal what allthese things look like. And I
think with being Residence HallDirector specifically, it's, I
don't want to say people feellike it's a competition, but I
feel like that's it. And sobecause you see all these things

(09:08):
up close and personal. You know,these are like your built in
friends. So you cannot help butnot only see what's happening to
them professionally, but alsosee what's happening to them
personally and think, Oh, I'mnot there yet. Or I'm not you
know, insert whatever the "not"is.

Yeah, definitely. I think the the competition piece
is absolutely a good point. It'slike somebody has something I
don't so either it's a deficitof my ability or, you know, a
privilege of another person orwhatever that might be, but it
spins down that rabbit hole ofI'm never going to be good

(09:45):
enough because I didn't get thisone committee assignment. So why
would I try harder for the nexttime around when there could be
100 different reasons. I lovethose. The one I'd love to think
about. I'm bad at my job becauseI'm not chairing the hot
committee or however you phrasedit, like, that's gold right
there, I would have neverthought about that one. But it's
like, it's the hot committee toyou. But there's I know, tons of

(10:09):
people who don't want to be thechair of the training committee,
or recruitment committee orwhatever it is, and now they're
doing it. It's like,"uhhhhhh...."

But you know what, though, I think a lot of
it depends on what thedepartment places value on what
they assume the departmentplaces value on, but also to
like training, for example, ifyou are chairing that, then the
resident advisors, the ResidentAssistants see you doing the set

(10:36):
action. And so, you know, thethe student staff don't
necessarily see what goes onbehind the scenes. So like to
you it may seem like this is thehot committee, but like you
said, for a couple others,they're like, I don't want to do
it.

Yeah. But then it's like, I'm in this position. I
don't want to do it, then I do Ineed it must be nice to be in a
chair of a committee, you don'twant to be on that everybody
else does. And the author talksabout "must be nice", quite a
bit.

Sara Frick (11:07):
You know, I think there is a couple that come to
my mind. One specifically forour live-on positions. I think
that balance and struggle of Ilive where I work, and should I
be out in the lobby of mybuilding. And if I am not, then
maybe my residents or my RAs,they don't think that I am

(11:32):
invested or that I care or theydon't think I work because I'm
trying to set up theseboundaries for my personal life
and my personal well being. AndI think that that is often a big
soundtrack of if I'm not activeand present 100% of the time in
my hall, I'm a bad ResidenceDirector or Hall Director,
whatever you call it at yourinstitution.

Definitely. And one I think that I caught when we
were chatting before we startedrecording was the comment and I
hear it all the time is like,it's housing, anything can
happen. And that soundtrack thenplays is like, my day is going
to suck or it's going to bechaotic, because well, it's
housing. And that's just the wayit is. And I think that's a

(12:13):
soundtrack that can certainly beunpacked.

Sara Frick (12:15):
Yes, definitely. And I think at some point in the
book, I don't remember, but helisted, you know, an example of
that, we start our day, you wakeup and you already are thinking
all the things that I need toaccomplish for the day. And
there's not enough time in thatday to accomplish everything. So
you automatically start off onthe wrong foot. And you have

(12:39):
this bad attitude, because Idon't have enough time to get
done everything. And howaccurate is that, especially for
housing and or you come intoyour office and you have your
whole plan for what you're goingto do. And then you have a
student in crisis. And now youneed to shift all your focus
over that way. And so that canreally change your mindset for
how your day is going to go.

Definitely. And former chancellor of the UT
System, Admiral McRaven, gave aspeech at UT Austin's
commencement a number of yearsago and talked about the value
of making your bed and what youjust said made me think of this
and how he talks about if youmake your bed first thing in the
morning, you automatically startwith a victory and one small

(13:20):
goal is accomplished, which thenleads to accomplishing another
and another and another. And Ithink that's one way to reframe
that soundtrack of, you know,wake up in the morning, and it's
like, Oh, I've just got so manythings to do. I'll never get
them done. It's like, oh, well,I've taken control of my
destiny. And I've made my bedand that one small step has set
me on a path to productivitytoday.

(13:40):
What about performanceevaluations? I imagine there's a
lot of people out there thatprobably have various
soundtracks, either like, "Oh,I'm going to my performance
evaluation, it's going to be thebest" or more likely than not,
"yeah, it's going to beterrible."

Sara Frick (13:54):
Yes! And you spend, and I think that the
overthinking, you spend so muchtime leading up to this, okay,
I'm going to have my evaluation,I'm going to sit down with my
supervisor, and they're going totell me all these ways that I
really am horrible, or all thesethings. And then you sit down
and obviously it's a performanceeval, you're gonna have areas of

(14:15):
growth, but more than likely,you sit down and there's a lot
of affirmation in what you'redoing well, and the positivity
of that. And so I know, I'vedefinitely been in those
situations, and maybe notspecifically evals, although I'm
sure I've over thoughtevaluations, but those
conversations with supervisorswhere it's like, I know, I'm
gonna have this toughconversation because I was

(14:37):
supposed to do XYZ and I didn't,and then the conversation is
very, "okay, well, you know,yeah, for next time, make sure
you do this," and I built it upto be this big, huge thing. "Oh,
my goodness, I'm going to spendhours unpacking this with my
supervisor. They're gonna thinkI'm a horrible human." And the
same thing. Yeah, and then youget to evals and you dread about
it, and then really, you "okay,this is where we're at and then

(14:59):
we're gonna move on to that."

I remember this one time. And I don't even remember
what the situation was. A bossof mine asked, like, "can you
tell me about this oversight?"Or "what happened with this
oversight?" And it was in thatmoment, right then and there,
it's like, here we are. We'regonna talk about this for 30
minutes. I was like, "well... itwas an oversight, just like you
said." And the conversation wasdone. Like, there wasn't

(15:23):
anything else to unpack or like,you know, developmentally
process for 30 minutes. It waslike, oh, okay, there we go.
Yeah. Moving on.

Sara Frick (15:30):
Yes. You're like "I spent days worrying about this
conversation." And it was donein 90 seconds.

Yeah, right.
Exactly. I think that leads toanother thing that it's like, do
we really think you go into yourperformance evaluation... We
thought about it for days anddays and days, like, oh, it's
been on my calendar for a week.
And now I got to do this and allthese soundtracks playing in our
head about it, and then it like,goes just fine. And yeah, like
you said, some areas of growthand a lot of affirmation. And
then, do we ever stop and thinklike, was it really worth all

(16:00):
the time I invested thinkingabout that? And the negativity?
I don't think people areprocessing that or if they are,
it's very difficult to not do itagain.

Sara Frick (16:10):
Yes, that's so true.
It's even though you almostalways will come away from that.
And I know I've even beforereading this book, I'm like, I
put way too much energy intothinking that through. But yet
you find yourself every singletime you're in a similar
situation doing the exact samething.

Is there such a thing as productive
overthinking?

So I'd say yes and no. Yes, because as someone
that is an overthinker, it getsyou mentally prepared for all
the obstacles that could comeyour way. So not saying that
that's a good thing, or a badthing. But it just gets you
mentally, and maybe evenemotionally prepared if
something bad does happen. Buton the flip side, is it good for

(16:55):
your mental and emotionalhealth? No. So is it productive?
Technically, yes. Buttechnically no.

Sara Frick (17:03):
I feel like almost like you can find the silver
lining to not real positiveaction, like oh, you can get to
see lots of different outcomes,or it can help you think through
but what is the other outcomesor negativity that impacts

Well, and I think the positivity piece is what I'm
people. The point in the bookthat he makes about along these
lines is turning those brokensoundtracks into positive
soundtracks and turning thosepositive soundtracks into action
and taking tangible steps to dothings.

(17:42):
not, I don't outwardly emotevery much. And I'm not
necessarily the most positiveappearing person in most
contexts. But I'm not like anegative person. So that the
overwhelming positivity behindit was a little disconcerting
for me, and I hear the term like"toxic positivity" quite a bit
these days. And that phrasealways bothers me just a little

(18:05):
bit in terms of like, I don'tknow, if it's toxic, I get why
people are saying that, but isit more unproductive than toxic?
is how I kind of like processthat in my head?

JC to your point, I think I may have maybe
not explanation, but just analternative thought.

Sure!

Maybe toxicity may not be the word. But what I
think about is like youexperience positivity in a
vacuum. And so you think aboutthe silver linings, you think of
all the good, the fluffy things,the sweet things, the candy
things, but you don't thinkabout it in context to the world

(18:47):
and what's actually happening inreality. And so I think it's a
coping mechanism. So peopledon't think about that, which
again, isn't a bad thing. But ifyou negate the reality, then it
kind of does become toxic,because you're ignoring what's
actually happening. I hope thatmakes sense.

That does. I love that. Yes, I think yeah, that's
again, it's something I've neverbeen able to like articulate.
But I think you're absolutelyright. So I really appreciate
that.
There is a cyclical nature toour thoughts and actions, where
each informs the others. This iswhy it's so important to like
replace, or change brokensoundtracks. Any thoughts around

(19:30):
the cyclical nature of them?

I do agree with this. And this may be a
little deep, so you could tellme to get back a couple feet.
I do agreewith this. And this makes me

We love it.
think about what we talk aboutin the Black community about
generational curses, in thesense that, you know, a parent
does something and this somehowin some way you replicate that
experience and then you pass iton to your children, until

(20:02):
somebody breaks thatgenerational curse. And that
takes a lot of self work, a lotof self awareness. It takes, you
know, a lot of seeking help andresources from other people. But
that's a lot of heavy lifting todo, and you have to be committed
to doing it. So I agree withthat statement. Because if you
are contained in the same cycle,you're going to breed the same

(20:24):
results, maybe in differentcomponents or different aspects
of your life. But you have to bereally intentional. Now, I don't
think it's as simple as changinga soundtrack. I think it's a
component of breaking thatcycle.
Yeah, if only itwere that simple, right?

Sara Frick (20:45):
Yeah, I think being able to turn things into
actions. And that piece, I thinkis more important than
necessarily the soundtrackpiece, I get that the soundtrack
and how positive you are and howyou are speaking to yourself
impacts your actions. But Ithink the action part, in my

(21:07):
opinion, is a little bit moreimportant in breaking that
cyclical nature of negativesoundtracks.

The author suggests a strategy of exploring your
soundtracks with threequestions. What's the first
question a listener should askthemselves when they identify a
negative soundtrack?

Sara Frick (21:25):
The first question is, "is it true?" So asking,
what is the validity behind thatthought and being able to maybe
debunk with those other youknow, I'm trying to give a good
example, or something that heused,

I'm not going to apply for that job, because
there's better applicants outthere.

Sara Frick (21:49):
Yes. Good example.
Yeah, there are other betterapplicants out there. That
potentially might be there mightbe somebody out there better
than you. But that doesn't meanthat you are the worst applicant
or that you're bad, or that youcouldn't do the job. So speaking
through some of those truths, orwhat, what makes you think that
what's the why behind the? Is ittrue? So what is the validity

(22:13):
behind that? And why are youstarting to think those things
about yourself?

You know, I will say, I will give the author
credit that I actually do askmyself, "Is it true?" I don't
know if the two of youexperienced this. But when I'm
having a thought I had to askmyself, "Is this my emotions
telling me this? Or did thislike action actually happen?"
And so I even do this with in myfriendships and with my

(22:43):
significant other, like, if I'mfeeling a certain way, I really
need to sit down and marinate onit before I vocalize the feeling
because I know with myoverthinking it kind of well,
and he talks about in the book,it really does play tricks on
you. And so you really do haveto ask yourself, "is this is
real? Or am I making this up?"

Sara Frick (23:04):
I really liked in the book when he talked about
when they did a study where theyasked people about a significant
event. And then later on, Idon't remember how many years it
was or whatever, but significantyears later, having them recite
the same thing. And that theytold the story completely
different. But these peoplefirmly believed, "This is the

(23:27):
truth. This is exactly how ithappened" later on. And then
they're like, "well, here's whatyou said years ago," and then
they're like, "now I must havebeen lying. No... that couldn't
have been me." But so what isthe truth behind that versus
what your mind processes andbelieves when you have time to
overthink those things and thoseactions and what you believe to

(23:47):
be true.

Yeah, they showed them their own journals, like in
their own handwriting and said,"Well, that's my handwriting. I
don't know why I would lie then.
Because I'm telling the truthnow."

Sara Frick (23:58):
Exactly.

I'm interested to hear your all's thoughts on
this, there was an importantpoint about how office culture
is just a collection ofsoundtracks playing
consistently. And sometimesthey're intentional, but more
often than not, they're they'reaccidental. And so something I'm
curious about whether the truthbehind office culture, then if
we start breaking down officeculture, it's like, are these

(24:22):
unwritten rules actually true?

They may be true for some people... but not
all. And I feel like that showsup in housing specifically, is
depending on what what type ofresidence hall you're in. That's
how you know you makeassumptions on if you want to be
a hall director in that buildingbecause of what you heard. Like

(24:46):
that may be true for one personI worked in that building, but
when you say if you're assignedto that building, and you're
like, oh, it's actually thisisn't my experience, or
depending on who your supervisoror supervisors or Assistant
Directors are, you know, itcould be "Oh, I heard this
Assistant Director is like this,or I heard this Assistant
Director is like this. And thatmay have been one person's

(25:09):
experience, but that may not beyours. So I think there's some
truth to it. But I do think themore we breed unspoken
expectations like that, or if weshare information like that
about different components ofthe department, it can breed a
culture like that, becauseeveryone's under the same
assumption, even if they did notexperience that situation or

(25:33):
that person or that residencehall.

So I think with department culture, kind of
dovetailing on that it's like, Ithink there's an important piece
if we've got like a generationof overthinkers out there on the
frontlines as Hall Directors andCoordinators, like, I think
there'd be value in trying tohelp our staff navigate those
soundtracks by really processingout loud the quiet things of

(25:59):
like, office culture, theunwritten rules, the things that
matter, but we don't really talkabout in terms of various
things. I know when, when I wasat UTA, I did a whole
presentation on like, unwrittenrules, or like office culture
kind of things to kind of breakdown those things. So people
weren't walking in like, "Ididn't know this was a thing."

(26:19):
And it's not really a thing, butit is because of the way we all
interact. And so what do we doabout it? The author suggests to
find evidence, Sara, you kind ofmentioned this a little bit, we
go out looking for supportiveevidence, whether it's true or
not.

Sara Frick (26:33):
Yeah, looking for those pieces that are speaking
to yourself and saying, okay,here are those examples here,
those tangible things that proveyou know, that that this isn't,
this isn't true, this isn't myreality. And I think also that
speaking positivity and kind ofdoing the opposite of what your

(26:54):
brain is telling you to do.

And so some of that evidence is like in Jasmine's
example of, I didn't want towork at this, the high conduct
hall, I didn't want to work inthis hall, everyone said it was
going to be terrible. And thenall the sudden, maybe your
evidence comes after the factwhere it's like, oh, it really
isn't that bad. And so now theevidence is either well, this
person isn't trustworthy, or hasa bad attitude, or didn't have a

(27:16):
good experience and that shapedit, or are we ever thinking
things like maybe I'm justreally good at my job where
those problems didn't manifest,that then that evidence is
building for I can take onadditional challenges other
people say it's impossible.
But knowing something isn'ttrue, isn't all that helpful in
many cases? That's why we needto ask ourselves additional

(27:38):
questions. I overthinkindividual conversations with
staff and often say what I'mabout to tell you is super easy
for me to say, sitting on thisside of your experience, but way
more difficult for you living inyour experiences. So what's the
next question we should askourselves?

Does it help you progress? Does it help you
take action? Or does it leaveyou stuck in this place? In this
abyss of thoughts? And I thinkwhat's interesting is as an
overthinker, you can be stuck,because it's like, I'm thinking
of all the possibilities. AndI'm thinking of all the
perspectives, and I'm stressedand now I'm tired over

(28:18):
processing this information. SoI am stuck. And now that I'm
stuck, oh, is it going to lookbad in my performance? Because I
can't move forward?

The spinning wheel...

Sara Frick (28:35):
And I think that that piece to which we've we've
spoken a little bit about but isalso relevant in this question
of is it helpful is are you justoverthinking this conversation?
Or is it you know, is itproductive? And I think we
touched on this a little bitwith the toxic positivity and is
there possibility to beproductive while overthinking.

(28:59):
But you know, why did you saythe things that you did and
sitting there and thinkingthrough over and over again? And
is there really any benefit tothat? Is there anything in what
you're telling yourself, that isgoing to aid you in the long
run?

And then what's the last question the author
suggests?

Sara Frick (29:17):
The last question is, "is it kind?" And I like he
used the analogy or example ofsaying, like, would you say what
you're saying to yourself toyour friend, because you
probably are not, you probablywould not do that. Or at least
if you are a good friend, youwouldn't be saying those things

(29:39):
to your friend. So why say themto yourself, if you wouldn't say
to somebody love and care about.

"Hey, best colleague of mine, you are about
to have the worst performanceevaluation of your life."

And you know, it's interesting to think not
only in housing but in studentaffairs in general. We spend so
much time uplifting ourcolleagues uplifting our
students, making sure that theyhave support, making sure that
they feel valued. But when itcomes to us, we have a hard time
being kind to ourselves, it canbe discouraging sometimes,

(30:13):
because it's like, I know I'mkicking butt, I'm doing a good
job. But I just can't get pastthis one hurdle? And is this
really reflecting badly on myjob performance? Do my students
think all these terrible thingsabout me when if you actually
want to go ask students or thestudents that you have trusting
your relationships with? They'regoing to say, oh, Sara, you're

(30:33):
awesome. J.C., you're kickingbutt, I will not want to live in
any other residence hall butthis one, or I wouldn't want to
be a part of any other committeewithout you on it, you know? And
so it's very interesting howhard we are on ourselves versus
how people look at us from theoutside.

Or those one off examples of going back to again,
the problem hall that, you know,maybe it was still problematic?
Well, like there was a lot ofconduct and the student was
like, "I'm moving out, because Ididn't have a good experience,
but it wasn't because of you.
And my experience would havebeen worse, had you not been
here." Where it's may not havebeen the Olympic gold medal, but
it was, you still providedsomething for them that made it

(31:14):
better. So it's not a totalfailure on, you know, this
person's part. I think, youknow, the being kind part is I
also had to kind of check myselfand looking at like, it wasn't
necessarily being kind isn'tlike touchy feeling and just
constant affirmation to myself.

(31:35):
But it's more about like justnot being judgmental to myself.
And I think Jasmine that goes alittle bit about what you were
kind of going back to being kindto ourselves and others allows
us to get engaged in a littlerisk taking behavior where if
there's that psychologicalsafety net, we're willing to
extend ourselves, we're going totry a little more, or we're

(31:55):
going to put ourselves inuncomfortable situations. And if
we don't have that psychologicalsafety, we'll kind of regress or
recluse in that.

And I think to that point to thre is a quote,
that did actually resonate withme in the book that I think goes
along with what you're saying.
And the author says, "we assumewe have to be tougher than that,
and have the resilience of aNavy SEAL. But what is
resilience other than allowingyourself to begin again, when
things don't go the way youexpected the first time?" So you
have that psychological safetyor that emotional safety, then

(32:28):
you are going to be able to tryagain, you're going to be able
to be resilient, and take thenext steps to move forward and
move beyond your overthinking.
And so you're going to askyourself these three questions.
Is it true? Nope, it's not true.
You know, is it helping me takeaction? No, so I'm going to do X
action. And am I being kind tomyself? No. So let me go talk to

(32:49):
a student that I really love tohelp boost up my ego. So I can,
you know, be resilient and tryagain, or take a risk.

I feel like being kind should just be the first
question we ask ourselves, like,you know that I feel like that's
the one that catches all theothers that might slip through
the cracks.

Sara Frick (33:07):
Yeah, we could save ourselves a lot of time if we
just asked that question.

Would I tell this to my best friend? There was
some example the book, it'slike, "Would you tell your tell
your best friend that they'rethe worst mother in the world?"
No. So why are you tellingyourself that? Or I'm the worst
father or whatever?

Sara Frick (33:25):
Yes. So true.

Like that was the moment where it really hit me.
It's like, yes, we do tellourselves pretty terrible
things.

Sara Frick (33:32):
Yeah. And it's so hard to break that, that cycle
of doing it, it's so humannature. And I think, especially
in housing, and I feel likewe're very, you know, everybody
is relational. We care aboutpeople. That's why we're in this
field. We care about what peoplethink. And so we take so
personally a lot of our actionsand how we're impacting others

(33:56):
and, and what thoserelationships and things look
like. So when you come intothose moments of messing up, we
think this is impacting morethan just me. So I feel like
we're a lot harder on ourselvestoo of saying unkind things,
because it's not just ourselves,but we care so much about the
impact that we have on othersthat I think a lot of times that
feeds deeper into that kindnessor lack thereof.

Well, I think the "I care so much" is can be
problematic in some ways,because then that repeats itself
where it's like, well, "I careso much that I can't take time
off, because my students need meand I need to pour into them."
And so then we're repeatingcycles of, well, "I haven't had
a day off and so long. Well, myboss has been telling me to take

(34:42):
days off, but I just keep sayingI can't" and so what then that
that keeps repeating the cycle.
So I think, you know, "I can'ttake time off" is another broken
soundtrack that I hear or I'veheard plenty throughout my
career.

Sara Frick (34:56):
Yes, definitely.

And the unkind thing I would say back is like
"Well, if you can't take timeoff and your building can't
survive without you, then you'veprobably are not doing it
right," like, trust in yourstaff and your supervision to
like, you're a good supervisor,your people, like, you know,
you've set your boss up forsuccess because they know the
issues that are going on thatthey can cover for you while
you're gone. Like, think aboutit positively, if like you've

(35:19):
done a good job,

I think to that point, too, I forgot what
section of the book, the authortalks about this. But he talks
about perfectionism, and howthat plays a role into the
overthinking. And it makes methink about how literally
everything he just said, showsup in housing and how that's
related to perfectionism. Andwhen you are in a healthy mind

(35:41):
state, you know, you want yourstaff to be able to function
without you, whether it's a gradstudent, whether it's an
undergrad student, you want tobe able to communicate what's
happening to your building, withyour building to your
supervisor, so that when whenyou go to the Bahamas, you know,
things are going to function.
And when you get back, you'll beable to take care of it. But
your team got it. But I thinkwith being in housing or

(36:03):
residence life, you feel likeyou're under a microscope. And
because you're under amicroscope, you need to be
perfect. And so when you'reperfect, that means everything's
functioning, and everybody'sokay, and everybody's doing
great. But you shouldn't feelcompelled to strive for
perfectionism. We want you to becompetent professionals, we want
you to be confidentprofessionals, but competent and
confident professionals alsomeans you take care of yourself.

Yeah, number one rule take care of yourself
first. A lot of the things we'vekind of talked about, it's, it
may seem like so easy to talkabout, like oh, just turn it
off, turn it off, like, oh,we'll just think different
things. But the author talksabout, it's not actually a
switch, but it's more of like adial. So any thoughts on how we
turn down the dial or shiftingaway from the mindset of it's

(36:51):
like binary, either it's on orit's off?

Sara Frick (36:55):
I liked this analogy. And I feel like it's
more realistic in that sense.
Because yeah, I think one day,you're not going to be like,
"Okay, I know. I overthink sostarting tomorrow, I will never
overthink again." Like the thereality behind that is it just
doesn't happen. So I think thatanalogy of turning down the

(37:16):
dial, and what can we do to turndown that background noise, and
to change that negativity intopositivity. And he gave a lot of
practical strategies of thingsfor that, such as going for a
run, creating a list, talking toa friend, I don't know that all
of those are maybe the mostproductive. Or maybe for some

(37:39):
people that work some people itdoesn't. But I think that the
concept behind it of gettingyourself outside of your own
head, doing something to preventyourself from overthinking and
get your mind occupied onsomething else. So I think that
is maybe a good tip to turningdown the dial. I don't know that

(38:01):
this will work for every singleperson or what your guys's
thoughts were on that. But Ithink it's accurate, you're not
going to have one day just turnoff a switch and stop
overthinking completely. That'sjust not realistic.

You know, I think for some people, the
switch analogy works for them,and assumes that they are able
to just cut it off and be donewith it and then move on. I know
a few people that can do that.
And I wish I could do thatbecause I wouldn't have to worry
about it. But myself being anoverthinker, I think a dial is

(38:36):
more appropriate because I thinkfor me, it shows that you have
an awareness of when times aregoing to be stressful for you.
So you're going to work a littlebit harder to turn the dial sown
so you are working through thosethoughts that you're having in
the back of your mind. And thenwhen you work through those
thoughts, then you may turn thedial up because you have tackled
whatever you're tacklingthrough. So I think the good

(38:59):
thing about a dial is that itallows you to adjust as time
progressed or as times change.
Whereas with the dial, it justworks for folks who are able to
just shut it off. And then youknow, something else happens,
they could flip it on and thenshut it back off. And so I think
there are two distincttechniques, but I think a dial

(39:21):
is more appropriate foroverthinkers, whereas if you're
not an overthinker, a switch maybe more applicable.

Well, and I think the the switch verse dial
analogy is one of those areasthat I thought of in terms of,
it's easier to have a switchwhen you're in a position of
power, where you can just turnit off like any follow up
conversation I have with anystaff member I've ever had,
like, I can easily say "I'mmoving on." "We're moving on.

(39:49):
We've talked about this, don'tworry about it." And where okay,
I've legitimately moved on andyet the person who doesn't have
the power or the subordinateposition is "Okay, I just had
this follow up conversation withmy boss." And we all know that
like, follow up, quote, followup conversation is just coded
language for I'm in trouble or Iscrewed up. And so it may be a

(40:11):
dial is more appropriate there.
Whereas like, when my bossfollows up with me about
something she's like, "Okay, Imoved on now", it's like
"ughhhh..., okay, I'm glad tohear that." And that kind of
helps me adjust. But it's stillnot a switch in that moment. So
I think that there's, you know,positions of power have a little
bit more latitude to be able to,or the luxury maybe, or the

(40:32):
privilege to... Alright, theswitches turned off.

Sara Frick (40:38):
Yeah. And I think too, I it probably depends on
how you view that switch versusdial like, in general. I don't
know that. Again, it depends onthe person, but like, oh, just
overthinking in general, likenow I will never overthink
again, that switches off versuson. But I think that kind of
what you're saying J.C. in thatpiece of certain things. Yeah,

(40:59):
it's like, oh, I say this thing,I'm, I don't have to worry about
it anymore. It's somebody else'sproblem or thing that they're
dealing with. And I, I talkedthem through it. Now I'm on to
my problems. And those are thethings that maybe I have to work
more on the dial situation,because it's overwhelming my
thoughts and my day to day andwhat I actively have to take
care of.

Yeah, J.C. I'm glad you brought that analogy
up, actually. Because I thinkthat's very true that it's
present not only in housing, orresidence life, but it's just
present in life, like a lot ofpeople are able to afford to
just turn off certain thingsthat are happening in the news,
because it doesn't affect you,until it affects you. Whereas

(41:40):
people that are living throughthis experience are living
adjacent to their experience,they can't just flick it, when
they feel like it, they have todeal with it. And I think that's
a critique that manymarginalized communities have
with communities of privilege ingeneral, like, it doesn't matter
to you because you don't have toface it every day. But we have
to face it every day, you know,this is my reality, I can't just

(42:03):
walk away from it and be donewith it. And I also think that
shows within housing, if you area Resident Advisor or a
Residence Hall Director at anentry level position, or
paraprofessional position, as wesay in housing residence life,
you are the frontline of thedepartment. And so because you
are the frontline of thedepartment, you are seeing these

(42:24):
things happen in real time. Andyou are dealing with these
issues three, four or five hoursat a time. So you can't just
switch it off. Because you know,you could walk to your room, you
can walk to your apartment, andyou have to tackle said issue,
where as your superiors may nothave to see it as up close as
you do on a day-to-day basis.

Sara Frick (42:44):
Yeah, your supervisor gets to go to their
house or apartment off-campusand doesn't have to concern
themselves with the things thatthen is right outside of your
door, your apartment when youlive on campus.

Well, and even the privilege of being able to,
quote experience the incident byreading about it versus like
witnessing it firsthand is atotally different emotional
experience and a total differentline of thinking that everything
that comes after that. Theauthor also talks about like

(43:17):
borrowing soundtracks to others,he talks about quotes he's
picked that he's farmed fromelsewhere, any soundtracks you
all have collected from otherpeople? supervisors, colleagues,
celebrities?

So I struggle to figure out what soundtracks I
could remember or I've writtendown. But what I have thought
about is, I don't know what yourexperience was, was like growing
up or what your undergradexperience was like. But I was
born and raised in Detroit,Michigan, which is a

(43:52):
predominantly Black community,really a predominantly People of
Color community. And so itwasn't until I left college,
where I wasn't in a predominantBlack community. And so growing
up, I remember my teachers, theyused to always give us some type
of affirmations say like, you'rea king, you're a queen, you come

(44:13):
from royalty, you're making yourancestors proud, really trying
to infuse those encouragingwords to us, because after we
left our community, you know, weweren't going to be in those
safe spaces. And so reflectingback I think those were
foundational soundtracks that Ireceived from my teachers

(44:34):
growing up because once Ientered into predominantly white
spaces and started reallyinteracting with different
stereotypes of bias that didn'texperience before I felt
equipped in my identity, and Ifelt confident, and I didn't
have to go through certainstages of, I guess questioning
of my identity, because I didhave teachers that said all

(44:58):
these majestic things to megrowing up.

Yeah, yeah, like that's the soundtrack right
there like "you are a queen."Like every morning you wake up.
It's like I am a queen likethat's the that's what that's I
would think that that the wayyou describe that it's like
that's borrowed like imaginetelling all of your
paraprofessional staff like youare king. You are a queen. You
are royalty.

I'm glad you feel like you're royalty J.C.
You know, you're already infusedin a soundcheck and see your
life.

Only because of you! Before this, I was like, Am
I royalty. No, I'm just anothergear in the cog. But you're
right, I am a king! I amroyalty.

Sara Frick (45:34):
That's what J.C. is gonna say as he's laying his
head down on his pillow.

Every night before I go to bed, quote, Jasmine
Jennings.

But it's like you don't realize, I don't know,
if you feel like this aboutsoundcheck, you've heard but
just reflecting back, you know,I really didn't realize the
effect that it had on me until Ibecame a professional. And I'm
actually glad I had teachersthat said all these wonderful
things to me, because I'vedefinitely feel a lot more
confident in my work. But alsoto just a short, short, short

(46:06):
little story. When I was aResident Advisor, my supervisor
did an activity where we allgave feedback to each other. And
one of the feedback that theygave me, they said I was
aggressive. And I think aboutthat. I think about that
instance, very often, becauseI'm like, I'm not naturally
aggressive. I'm actually prettychill. But even though I think

(46:30):
about it, I don't marinate onit. And I'm thankful that I've
had people to tell me otherwise.
Because I would just imaginethat if I continue carrying that
with me what effect it wouldhave on me interacting with
different staffs that I'veworked with over time.

What do you think it was about becoming a
professional then that made thatcome to light?

You know, that's an excellent question. I
would say that, I think havingconversations with my Students
of Color, and they talk abouttheir worthiness. I think also
talking to students that werefirst generation students, and
me walking them through support,walking them through confidence,

(47:15):
walking them throughaffirmation, made me reflect
back on my childhood and myupbringing and school, I'm
thankful that I did haveteachers and educators that did
look like me. And so I'veinteracted with a lot of
students that didn't have thatexperience. And so I'm really
understanding why representationis important because it helps

(47:37):
promote a positive message likeyou can do this, you can be
here, you can get a master'sdegree, you are capable. And so
I'm glad that I had those folksin my life to tell me that and I
could share that information.
Because I've definitely Iactually know that think about
I've really had to share thosethoughts with students as they
are questioning themselves intheir identity in the space of

(47:58):
higher education. And I hope Ianswered your question.

Yeah, absolutely. I appreciate you sharing. Sara,
any you borrowed from others?

Sara Frick (48:10):
You know, I also struggled a little bit, I think
it's hard to pull those things.
But the one thing that I wrotedown when I was thinking through
what those soundtracks are, is Ihad a pastor once from my church
that I went to growing up thathad talked a lot about your
small actions having value, andthat everything is a step on a

(48:32):
ladder in the in a direction.
And I think that's somethingthat latter analogy that really
stuck with me and something thatI've carried also into my
interactions with others. Sothose small things that I do can
make an impact. And so sayingthat to myself, or even if I
don't see what there is, maybe Idon't get to see the immediate

(48:57):
benefits. But there can bebenefits, and there can be a
positive impact. So when youthink about your interaction
with students and with theirlives, like maybe you have a,
you know, a student that'sdealing with mental health
issues, or something like that,and you have one conversation,
and maybe they didn't walk awayfrom that saying, like, I'm
going to go seek help. But Iknow that I had a positive

(49:17):
interaction, and that maybe thathelped to normalize going to see
a counselor a little bit more.
And maybe some of those smallthings will help them on the
grander scale, even though Imight not see that impact. So I
think that that's one soundtrackand thing that has been really
embedded in me and that I haveused in my personal life, but
I've also seen in our field ofhigher education.

I remember one conversation I had with the
first instructor of my docprogram, we met up and we're
just chatting, and he made anoffhand comment that my
dissertation was actually goingto be the worst thing I ever
wrote. Which I laughed at thetime because he was a pretty
straight shooter in thoseregards, but then he followed

(50:01):
up, it's like, well, if you'regoing to keep getting better at
this, this is your firstacademic writing. Hopefully
everything after this point isgoing to be better and better.
And that's one that I, I'veapplied that the the first thing
the first time you're ever yourfirst committee chair meeting is
probably going to be your worstone because you've never run it
before. Or your first day onyour as a, your new role is

(50:23):
probably going to be I don'tthink it practically applies
across the board. But it's ait's something I've reframed a
lot of things of like, the firstepisode I recorded this podcast
was the worst quality one of allof them because it gets better
after that point.

My significant other is agreeing with
everything that you just said.
He said, "Preach."

But it was also like a little shocking when he
said that at first, because likeyou're talking about something
I'm spending years writing, andyou're telling me it's gonna be
the worst. And it was untillike, I like unpacked it a
little bit in my head over time.
It's like, you know, he'sabsolute, or at least I hope
he's right, is what it reallyshouldn't be. Maybe it's not,
maybe it's the best thing I everwrite? But I hope that he's
right in it being the worst.

Sara Frick (51:11):
Gotta unpack it a little bit more.

Yes. What's the thought behind the thought? I
think is what the author says anumber of times. And what the
author said also that I love is"well, do you want feedback or
do you want compliments?", likein a in a supervisory
relationship of like, you know,tell me how I'm doing? Okay.
Well, do you want feedback? Ordo you want complex compliments?

Sara Frick (51:32):
Yeah, that was a real tough love moment there in
the in the book, but very, veryaccurate.

Yeah. And I think if you just like even that
moment of reframing that it kindof sets the tone for the rest of
the conversation. It's likeyou've elected this way. And,
again, I'm not going to be ajerk about it. But here's the
feedback.
We've talked a little bit aboutthe emotional toll of over
commitment and mental health ofhousing staff throughout and one
I think I've tried to lend topeople--a soundtrack I've tried

(52:02):
to listen to people I work with,is, "it's just a job." And I
picked that up from an articleyears ago. And I think it was
from like a ER surgeon or acardiovascular surgeon who wrote
this thing, I have to see if Ican find the article these days.
But like, even this person wassaying, "it's just a job." And

(52:24):
so I try and lend that out asmuch as I can to reaffirm that,
really, at the end of the day,it's just a job.

I mean, you're right, because we want you to do
great work, we want you toimpact students, but there's so
much more to you than this job.
And if this job is causing youto overthink a lot, or if it's
the root of your overthinkingand it's bleeding into other
things in your life, that's notgonna work out well for you

(52:50):
emotionally or mentally. And soyou're right, that is just the
job. And I think that's asoundtrack I can share with
others too.

Sara Frick (53:02):
And that's what Jasmine's gonna say when she
lays her head on her pillowtonight.

It's just a job!

I'm just glad that we've been able to share
mutually share and benefit eachother.

Sharing is caring.

Absolutely. This is a little off topic. But another
implementation for overthinkingis like the author talks about
like a pocket jury about, youknow, we've got these people
saying things in our pocket,typically it's like negative
stuff in our heads. But I pickedthis up from... I think it was
an FBI negotiator, expertnegotiator. And from that I

(53:41):
added to the "pocket jury" oflike, add someone you admire
into it, whether you're likenegotiating a job salary or a
car price, or whatever theoverthinking moment, is is like,
would Beyonce take the firstoffer? You know, whatever the
case may be, and I think that'sone like put a positive voice in

(54:03):
your head about what wouldTaylor Swift do or whatever
those whatever it might be?

Sara Frick (54:08):
Yeah, making taking people that you view positively
and try to input that into yourown, can change how we naturally
view things so negatively forourself, that that change of
mindset of mindset is reallybig.

I think, to that point, with a change of
mindset. I think what stuck outto me about a pocket jury, and
this I want to read specificallythis definition that was in the
book, it's whenever you dare tobe more than you currently are.
And I think that's a veryimpactful statement to say
because your pocket jury doestypically come out when you are

(54:48):
trying to be better, do better,think better, grow more, you
know, go outside of your comfortzone, take a risk, you know,
insert all the things andactually I like the word there
specifically, because it's like,you are betting on yourself, you
are betting on your goals, youare betting on your work ethic,

(55:09):
you are, you know, betting oryour competency. And when you
think about the pocket jury,that's when all the things from
childhood, from high school,from undergrad really creep up
on you say all these things. Andso sometimes you do need to ask,
"would Beyonce do this?" Beyonceis great. I want to be great

(55:30):
like her, what do I need to doto get to her level? And so it's
almost like a, like Beyonce isyour weapon against all the
naysayers that you have in yourmind? I know that was like very
fun using Beyonce as yourweapon. But I hope you know, I
hope that makes sense, you know,to go into battle against your

(55:51):
pocket.

Well in the pocket jury is that people who like are
the ones that are constantlytelling us we're imposters in
those situations where we'restretching ourselves like
imposter syndrome is alegitimate thing. And the
thought behind that thought islike I'm just an imposter. It's
like imposter syndrome typicallyapplies to like high performers
or people who are like,challenging themselves and

(56:14):
growing. And that's somethingyou should be proud of. So
anytime someone talks to me,it's like, I just feel like an
imposter like, you know, soon tograduate students, as soon to
graduate, commonly will saythis, like, I'm going to start a
new job, I'm going to be a totalimposter like, but you're not
like you're not really likethat's a good thing, if you feel
that way, because you're beingchallenged to grow.

Sara Frick (56:36):
Yeah, I feel like it's so easy to view growth in a
negative way, because it'suncomfortable, not because it's
a bad thing, you know, growth isa good thing. But when we step
outside of our comfort zone, alot of time we're so
uncomfortable that we don't wantto do it, or then we start to
view as "Oh, this, this isn'twho I am This is not my nature,

(56:59):
I don't know what I'm doing."And you start to really tear
yourself down instead of, youknow, being confident in those
decisions and how you want togrow and better yourself.

And to your point to Sara, like you talk
yourself down before you evenexperience the experience. And
so you're you're projecting allthese things into the
experience. And it may not evenbe that way, you may think, "Oh,
I really can do this." And thisalso makes me think about a
quote that Queen Michelle Obamasaid, it was either in her book

(57:31):
or in one of her talks, but she,you know, spoke about how, you
know, she was in these roomswith all of these generals, and
these politicians and all ofthese important people in the
country. But when she sat in onthese conversations, she felt
like, you know, she was just asmartest thing, like she's just
as competent as it may be evensmarter and more competent. And

(57:53):
so I'm glad to hear that ourforever First Lady, you know,
shared that experience, because,you know, you think all these
things like they've been through20 years in the industry, or
they, you know, they've gonethrough all these things. And so
they are competent, and equippedto do all this. But once you
actually get there, you see thatyou belong there, like this is

(58:16):
your place, just believe inyourself.

Absolutely.
Michelle Obama 2024.
And for any of our listeners outthere who think that this is
just stuff that is anecdotal,they actually did a whole lot of
research and interviewed orasked over 10,000 people, all
sorts of questions and some ofthe strategies they employed.

(58:42):
And when they asked 10,000people how overthinking made
them feel, 73% of people said itmade them feel inadequate. And
52% of them said it made themfeel drained. So if those
feelings are something youexperience when you feel like
you're overthinking know thatyou're not alone. And I put that
in there just from this is justthere is research supporting

(59:05):
everything we're talking about.

Sara Frick (59:07):
Yes, I always appreciate the data to back up
like, you know, and we'vementioned like, what a
fascinating concept ofoverthinking and how like you
can relate and you can sitthrough and be aware. "Oh, I'm
overthinking this knowledge,read the book. I'm very
sensitive to this." But when helists out this data and some of

(59:29):
these things, it does make youfeel like you're not the only
one because I think that's partof the overthinking is like
"it's just me, I'm the only onefeeling this I'm the only one
that's ever overthought anythingin my whole life" when you know,
that's clearly not the case.

Or maybe not even the I'm the only one
overthinking but I'm the onlyone who gets exhausted by
overthinking or I'm the only onethat spins this negatively down
the rabbit hole.

Sara Frick (59:55):
Yes, very true.

And you know, I feel like this goes along with
that. feelings of shame or guiltor feeling the way that you feel
from overthinking. And whenyou're feeling shameful or or
when you're having feelings ofguilt, then you isolate
yourself, and really get youthinking, "Oh, am I the only
one" or "I am the only oneexperiencing this," when we as a

(01:00:18):
community as a society reallyneeds to work through feelings
of shame, and like really speakup more about those more
uncomfortable feelings so thatpeople don't feel like they are
in isolation when they'reexperiencing overthinking?

J.C. Stoner (01:00:32):
Yeah, absolutely. I feel like it's systemically
built into society that even ifwe acknowledge that everybody
feels shame that the people whohave power are like, you're a
powerful person, if you don'tdisplay shame, or you don't let
it consume you, like, there's anegative association with that,
like, Okay, well, maybe we alldo experience shame from time to

(01:00:53):
time, but the people, but if youdon't process shame, or don't
let it show, then you're in a,you have more power or position
or whatever the case may be.

Jasmine Jennings (01:01:05):
And you know, unfortunately, too, I think with
that mindset, as you get older,it'll wear you down, not even
just mentally and emotionally,but also also physically, I feel
like I know quite a few peoplethat let things build up to
where they're, like physicallysick and can't, you know, can't
continue working or can't workas hard as they used to. And so

(01:01:26):
all of that manifests in manydifferent ways. And so I
definitely think we need to workon speaking up more. And I think
that's what this new generationof students, they are really
advocates for, like, they haveno shame in sharing, like, this
is how I feel. I need help, Ineed you. And so I think that's
been a great, a great benefit toour current generation of

(01:01:47):
students is that they arechallenging us to speak up and
speak out and address those moreuncomfortable feelings when
we're experiencing them.

J.C. Stoner (01:01:55):
Absolutely.
Jasmine, did you want to talk alittle bit more about the book
not feeling like it appliednecessarily to you as a Black
Woman?

So yeah, I would say it didn't apply to me
in two ways. The first way, Ithink this is more general that
I think could be applicable toanyone. So, you know, I think I
may define overthinkingdifferently. So I definitely
experienced the overthinkingthat he talks about but I
actually consider my type ofoverthinking as constantly

(01:02:27):
thinking about a task or aresponsibility that I need to
take care of, and because I'mconstantly thinking and I'm
constantly on, that wears medown mentally and physically.
And so in a sense, going back towhat I was saying about using a
dial versus a switch, I'm sorry,not a dial versus a switch, but

(01:02:49):
productive overthinking when Ithink about productive
overthinking, because for me,I'm always trying to be a few
steps ahead of all the folksbecause I'm providing leadership
for different initiatives andprograms. Like I'm constantly
thinking, trying to plan aheadso that we're the people behind
me are prepared to do their jobor are prepared to do whatever I

(01:03:09):
need them to do for thedepartment. So that's certainly
one way I didn't think the bookaddressed my type of
overthinking. So I hope thatmakes sense. And then the second
thing is--

J.C. Stoner (01:03:21):
Before you get on to the next one, I have a follow
up statement. I love what youjust said about like in
leadership, I need to know or Ineed to show that I have
strength or that I'm I'm incharge or that I know what's
going on. And this is what Ithink about all the time. And it
is until within the last coupleyears, I finally have kind of
laid it out in my head. It'slike, I'm, I know my weaknesses

(01:03:43):
as a professional and like,knowing all the salient details
is one of them. And I knowpeople who are like, I got to
know everything. And it'sfinally I realized, I'm never
gonna be that person and all butI can be the person who--And I
And see I'm working on gettingthere but I'm not there yet.
just imagined myself seeing thisin an interview of like, "No,
I'm not going to know everythingthat's going on in my
department." Like if I was everto apply for Director job and

(01:04:05):
telling the VP or whoever myboss will be, I'm not going to
be the person who knowseverything that's going on in my
department. But what I am goingto be is the person who get
access to the information basedon the relationships and the
systems in place. If you ask mesomething and follow up, I'm not
gonna know the answer. But Iwill be able to get it to you
within an hour because of theway my department's going to

(01:04:28):
operate. And that's one thatlike, I would constantly
overthink. It's like, I don'tknow the answer to that
question. My boss just asked methis. I don't know. But guess
what, I always had a quickfollow up because my staff knew
what was going on.

(01:04:49):
And I don't know that I'm therethat yet either. It's like,
first, identify the issue. Andagain, I don't know how I'd ever
explained that to like, well nowthat it's in public record Like
anyone else is like, well,that's not what you said on the
podcast, you said you wouldn'tknow anything that's going on in
your department. But I thinkthere's some level of if you can
get comfortable with that, it'slike, you know, there's actually

(01:05:10):
a value to doing it that way.
And then also, you know, if Ican spin it even more, it's
like, staff doesn't feel likeyou're constantly micromanaging
with like, weekly reports, orwhatever, to get all these
details.

We'll see. And that's what's so hard. I don't
know if y'all have experiencedthis. But it's, I think, for me,
it's always like, I would get"what if" questions and
questions about really smallthings. And I'm like, in my
mind, I'm like, "I didn't thinkabout that." But then on the
outside, I'm like, "Okay, we'regonna figure it out." Or "here's

(01:05:43):
a quick answer", thinking on mytoes. And for me, I know, I can
answer the question. I know, Ican get the resource. But it's
stressful. Because again, as theleader, it's like, it's one more
thing to think about one morething to add on my to do list. I
wish I could just say, you know,let me come back to that. But I

(01:06:03):
know personally, I'm just notthere yet. And I'm working
through it.

J.C. Stoner (01:06:08):
Well, every time that I get asked a question,
it's like, we'll come back tothat. And then they see me walk
over to my boss's office, italmost like I gave some of my
authority, or my command in myposition, like this guy doesn't
even--why are we even talkingand having this conversation?
Why don't we go talk to his bossabout it? like, you know,
there's those things. And Ialso, there was, you know,

(01:06:29):
probably another soundtrack Ipicked up somewhere along the
way is like, sometimes the wrongdecision now is better than the
right decision two weeks fromnow, in terms of like, you know,
while I don't necessarily agreewith that, 100%, like, we
shouldn't be given wrong answersor bad information. But, you
know, sometimes it's like, wecan take action now.

To your point.
And this actually leads to thesecond reason why I don't feel
like I'm represented in thisbook, you know, I can't speak
for all Black People. And Ican't speak for all Black Women,
but from my community of BlackPeople, it's like, there's no
room for us to be wrong. There'sno room for us to make mistakes,
a lot of us are told growing up,you have to be better than the

(01:07:10):
person next to you. Becausethese opportunities don't come
to you like they do for yourpeers that aren't Black. And so
it's constantly proving yourselfto make sure that people know
that you are competent in yourjob. And so it's it literally is
always making sure that we're onour P's and Q's, always making

(01:07:31):
sure that we are the positiveBlack Person or the positive
Black Woman or that I don't havea negative attitude, or I don't
want to be at a get together atsomebody's house, even though
culturally, it's not for me. Andso when I think about
overthinking, I think about allthose things, I'm carrying that
on my back. Because I know I'mnot the only one experiencing

(01:07:55):
this. I know my peer Black Womanpeers of Black Male peers aren't
the only one that's experiencingthat. And so we can't just
positively think out that orbeat that. This is a systemic
issue of bias, a deep, a deeplybias issue that not only happens
in higher ed, but in a lot of alot of functional areas. And so

(01:08:18):
I think that's why I like thebook on a surface level, but he
doesn't really touch upon thecomplexity of how society works
for and against people. And sowhen it comes to overthinking,
his overthinking doesn't applyto my school life.

Sara Frick (01:08:39):
Yeah, I think that that's really interesting. And
thanks for sharing that.
Jasmine, your perspective, Ithink that what you're saying is
definitely true of that hedoesn't give any aspect to like
external things. Like it's allvery internal in your process.
And that, although for peoplefrom privilege that maybe they

(01:09:01):
are so privileged that theydon't have to worry about those
external factors, but there arepeople in different backgrounds
and situations that may warrantthat you can't only think about
your own thoughts and how thisis impacting you, but how you're
being portrayed by others andwhat that looks like.

J.C. Stoner (01:09:20):
And Jasmine, I imagine there's probably also
conflicting narratives going onthere with you being told "you
have to be better than theperson next to you." But I'm
imagining there's probablyeither subconsciously or even
more overtly like, but you can'tbe too much better, because then
you're going to look any sort ofway of like arrogant or trying

(01:09:43):
to hard, you know, so I imaginethere's also conflicting
messages, which then would makethe thinking behind it, and the
processing of the systemicissues like even more
challenging because it's like,"what do you want from me?" Or
what are people telling I needto give?

And it's like, because of those conflicting
messages. And I feel like thisshows up for a lot of
marginalized identities ingeneral. But you then start
policing yourself and policingyour personality. I think one
thing in student affairs, I'mjust going to be frank gets
under, um, isn't my favoritesaying is "Be your authentic

(01:10:20):
self." A lot of spaces in highered doesn't allow me to be my
authentic self, because it canbe viewed as threatening. It can
be viewed as rude, it can beviewed as ratchet or
unprofessional. And so it'slike, okay, I want to come to
this event, I want to wear thisoutfit, but will my body be

(01:10:42):
policed? So then I'm policingthe clothes I wear. Or
somebody's gonna say somethingabout my hair. So do I need to
wear this type of hairstyle atan interview? So then I'm
policing, what type ofbeautician I go to what
hairstyle I wear. And so it's soit runs so deep. And I know, I'm
not the only one that hasexperienced this. There really

(01:11:03):
isn't a solution to thesethings, though. And I think
that's the hard part. And that'swhat makes my type of
overthinking difficult becausethe author is right, in many
ways, like asking yourself, Isit true? Is it kind? Is it
helpful? Like, yes, that's thatsvalid. But what else is beneath

(01:11:24):
the iceberg or below the icebergis, is what I don't see
addressed.

J.C. Stoner (01:11:30):
Yeah, and I love what you just said about that
"Be your authentic self." Like,I couldn't agree with you more
on that of like, just howaggravating... Again, I'm a
white dude, like, I don't havethat experience. But it's like,
yeah, that would be great ifeverybody could be their
authentic selves. But we don'thave a system in place where
that's actually a reality that'sgoing to be helpful or

(01:11:53):
empowering in anyway for a lotof people. And until that system
is built in place where auniversity is like, everyone can
really everyone's behind this,like, you're just setting people
like by saying that as a VP ofStudent Affairs, like you're
setting people up for failure insome ways.
Well, that's a wrap for oursecond book club. For those of

(01:12:16):
you interested in reading thenext book further in advance, we

wil (01:12:19):
The Quest to Solve Problems Before They Happen" sometime in
the next three to seven months.
I already have one guest lockeddown but would certainly be
interested in having at leastone more, drop me a line at
swacuhopodcast@gmail.com ifyou're interested.
want to once again thank ourguests, Jasmine Jennings and
Sara Frick. They certainlydelivered and gave us a lot to

(01:12:41):
overthink about. Time is such avaluable commodity, and I can't
thank them enough for investingtheir time in this podcast
today. Be sure to connect withand thank them on their
preferred social media accountslisted in the show notes. Since
recording the last episode, Igot a second request for advice
out of the inbox. It's lookinglike we may have an advice

(01:13:03):
episode on the horizon. I onlyneed a couple more people to
anonymously ask for professionaladvice. Once we have a handful
of questions. I'll pull togethera panel to provide their take on
your situation and provide somerecommendations and guidance.
Consider like Ann Landers, butfor housing professionals.
I hope you join us next timewhen we will be talking with Dr.
Dustin Grabsch from SouthernMethodist University about an

(01:13:26):
article he published last yearin "The Journal of College and
University Student Housing"titled "Understanding the
Expectations of Students withAutism to Increase Satisfaction
with the On-Campus LivingExperience." A link to the
article will be in the shownotes if you want to read it in
advance. This will be our secondepisode talking about research
findings with a SWACUHOpractitioner scholar. So get

(01:13:47):
ready to be positioned to makeevidence based decisions.
And with that, I say to you,good day.

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007 - Overthinking Everything in Campus Housing | Jasmine Jennings and Sara Frick [Book Club]

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}007 - Overthinking Everything in Campus Housing | Jasmine Jennings and Sara Frick [Book Club]