012 - Mentorship On-Demand: Answering Listener Questions | Various Guests - SWACUHO Podcast

Episode Transcript
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J.C. Stoner (00:05):
I'm J.C. Stoner and this is the SWACUHO podcast.
Before we get into today'sspecial episode, I have to share
an interesting piece of data Ipulled from the download stats.
It appears the city with themost downloads over the course
of the last year is not inArkansas, not in Oklahoma, and
not in Texas. It's actuallyFrankfurt, Germany. So to all

(00:28):
our German listeners, thanks foryour loyalty and continued
listenership. Please reach outto me at
swacuhopodcast@gmail.com as I'dlove to chat with you, because
I'm curious who you are, and whyyou keep coming back, and if the
podcast has brought any value toyou, perhaps we can get a few of
you on the show in the futureand talk shop.

(00:51):
The city with the second mostdownloads is Richardson, Texas,
which happens to be where myhome campus is located. So
threatening my staff withdemerits and lower performance
appraisal ratings the firstMonday of every month appears to
be working.
A few other fun stats for youassessment junkies out there.
We've had 17 different gueststhis year. There have been over

(01:14):
750 downloads. We've had threeinterviews with Past Presidents,
three interviews with regionalscholar practitioners about
their research. We've had threefeature topics. We've had two
book clubs, and even a liverecording at the annual
conference. Our most downloadedepisode this past year was

(01:36):
Episode 003's article reviewwith Craig Seeger sitting at
nearly 150 downloads.
This episode rounds out one fullyear. We came together the first
Monday of every month, plus abonus episode from the annual
conference in February. Eventhough it's August, I still
squirreled away a few moments toself-reflect, which I hope you

(01:58):
will indulge me. My aim of thispodcast was to provide an
opportunity for self directedprofessional development for our
members. I'm a big believer intrying to control your own
professional development destinyinstead of waiting for others to
provide "opportunities" to us. Ipersonally believe professional

(02:19):
development is generally skewedthese days to be superficial
objects for attainment, likeanother bullet on the resume but
not always associated withactual professional growth, and
even worse, without much skilldevelopment. And sadly, most of
these traditional opportunitiesare handed down as an
opportunity for growth,reinforcing the narrative that

(02:42):
development can only be receivedand not created.
Throughout this podcast, we'vehad members and retired members
share their stories. The commonquestions I asked revolve around
small scale things they havedone with big impacts. I've
asked about missed opportunitiesand opportunities they wish they
would have passed on. I askedour practitioner scholars what

(03:05):
the smallest thing anyone can doto put their research into
practice. And we even had twobook clubs with tangible things
to put into practice. Example,after example, after example of
accessible and actionable thingsyoung professionals can do with
full control. Now our guestsdidn't give them to you on a

(03:26):
platter or spoon feed you withan action item list. But I truly
believe that there have beenplenty of things to try out
along the way. All that is leftis for you to give them a try.
This podcast has been a ton offun, but also a labor of love.
If you've gotten anything fromthis podcast, anything at all,

(03:48):
please let me know by emailingme at swacuhopodcast@gmail.com
because I'd love to hear fromyou. Even if only as validation
that this labor of love hasn'tbeen for nothing... other than
for me getting to connect withnew and old friends alike. Feel
free to send me topicsuggestions.
So enough of my soapbox. I'mexcited about today's episode

(04:10):
because on nearly every singleepisode, I have encouraged
SWACUHO members to submitquestions or ask for advice.
It's been slow going gatheringenough questions and I feel it
might be like how nobody goes toa restaurant they see nobody
eating at, so maybe this episodewill inspire more professionals
to seek out advice from peopleoutside their direct echo

(04:30):
chamber.
As questions came in, I askedguests I was already
interviewing to weigh in. Solongtime listeners will
recognize all of our gueststoday.
Our responding guests know onlywhat is read to them on the air.
Plus the self reported pronounsprovided by the person asking
the question.
I've got four inquiries today.
So let's begin.

(04:54):
The first thing out of the inboxis being fielded by the guests
of Episode 006. We have a lot ofSt. Cyr a second yearr residence
coordinator at the University ofCentral Arkansas, Victor
Salazar, the Director ofResidence Life at Our Lady of
the Lake University, and JasonTitus, Associate Director for
Housing and Residence Life atTexas Christian University.

The letter states (05:12):
Dear podcast, I'm a hall director. And by noon
every day, I have to review thisreport I receive and basically
fact check the information in itto see if there's any follow up
necessary. Every hall directorhas to do these in their
building. The problem is, I haveno idea why we have to do this
because it seems soinconsequential in the grand
scheme of things. In fact, a fewtimes I forgot to do them or was

(05:33):
out of the office, and nobodyseemed to notice that they
didn't get done. There was nofollow up. So it makes me wonder
if there's actually a point todoing them. I've asked my
supervisor what the purpose ofthese reports are and the
response I got was, "we justhave to do them." I seriously
have spent a fair amount of timetrying to think about why we do
these reports and what benefitthere are to the department. But

(05:55):
I can't think of anything.
Believe me... I've tried. Iguess knowing the why behind
them really won't change mypractice, because they really
are simple and straightforward.
It's just annoying to have tospend five minutes a day doing
this. Wouldn't my departmentrather me be spending my time on
something more meaningful? Isthere a way to figure out the
purpose of these reports withoutbeing annoying? And are there

(06:18):
any strategies to get out ofdoing this seemingly pointless
task? Sincerely, Daily Reporter.

Jason Titus (06:25):
I'll go first, I doubt it's pointless. What I
would venture to guess is thepoint doesn't happen at your
level or even a level above it.
I would imagine at some point intime, there's a lawsuit. And
that lawsuit hit. And becausewhether or not it was
successfully defended or not bythe university, or because that
happen, I'm willing to guessthat you now have a policy
practice in place, that you cansay we do this, I guarantee that

(06:48):
we do this and your director,whomever can, you know, sit
there and tell whoever needs tobe told, you know, either legal
legal counsel or whomever thisisn't a practice at all my
characters do, we guarantee thisexists. And this occurs, because
if it doesn't have oversightover it, no one's checking to
make sure it's being done, thenthe output of it isn't what's

(07:08):
important, right, at least notepically important. So it's the
presence of it that's important.
And in my experience, when thepresence is important, is
because typically, someoneeither got in trouble somewhere
or someone got sued somewhere.
And so that is what I wouldoffer as a hypothetical why, if
that is the case, in eithersuit, you have to be very

(07:29):
careful in how you challenge it.
Because what you're challengingin that case, would be either a
lawsuit someone had gottenpulled into, and this this
exists, or the trouble someonegot into and thus this exists.
And oftentimes, that makes it alittle bit more personal. So is
it worth that? To not have to doyour five minutes? Or would it
be worth doing the mindlesstask, it sounds like for five

(07:50):
minutes, to not walk a politicalminefield of accidentally going
to the wrong person and bashingthe thing that they may have
been pulled into unfortunatecircumstances about or created
to avoid unfortunatecircumstances. So unfortunately,
that entry level positions oftenhave these kinds of things. And
so I would say, if I'm you, it'sprobably worth just me doing the

(08:12):
task. And just knowing it'sbetter than figuring out a way
out of a lawsuit than me. Andand that's what I would say,
obviously a hypothetical why Ihave no idea where you are, or
if your institution actually gotsued. So please don't come after
me.

You heard it here first.

Victor Salazar (08:28):
I learned in my grad program, the importance of
having an elevator conversationready, whether that's for
feedback for ideas, you know, ifyou found yourself in the
elevator with the director, withthe President with whoever it
is, and what would you sharewith them? I think, as an entry
level staff member, you'reprobably not going to get the
answer that you're looking forday to day basis about why you
have to perform this task. Butif you ever have the opportunity

(08:51):
to share intentional feedbackwith the director or the
decision makers of yourdepartment, having some critical
feedback and having that part ofyour day to day activities. Part
of that is important and notjust to challenge the task, but
for better understanding of whyit is what is this information

(09:12):
being used for? Or is thereanother creative way that we can
get the same information, but Ithink it's important for us to
continue to be challenged, aslong as it's being done in a in
a respectful and in aconstructive manner. So just
just be ready to share thatfeedback. At the right moment.

Alana St Cyr (09:32):
Something is just made me think about was it
talked about follow up in thecomment, are the reports is
going really well every day,like is there a potential for
something to go incredibly wrongwhere you'll need to follow up
at some point. So just makes mecurious, like, to what extent
are we actually going to beutilizing the report, but I
really like what the other twosaid about holding that

(09:56):
feedback and maybe sharing that.

From experience, I know that in some of these
gopher jobs, so to speak, oftenyeah, there's not follow up
because nobody's payingattention except for when they
have to pay attention or itbecomes an, you certainly don't
want to be on the other side.
Again, we have no idea what thisreport is. So could be daily
move out numbers, it can be keyaudits, it could be COVID meal
delivery audits, likeprogramming attendance. I mean,

(10:20):
it could be anything, butsomeday it's going to be asked
and glad to have it ready. Andyes, here it is. And I think if
your boss is saying, "it's justsomething we have to do," I
think that's a coded languagefor "I don't know," and possibly
even "I don't have the politicalcapital that I want to invest in
asking about this thing." And Ithink that's in some ways that

(10:41):
can be challenged a little bit,but it also needs to be done
respectfully.
And that's why--Victor, I'venever heard it called that way.
But like having a, an elevatedconversation on the ready, like,
I've talked to staff about thata lot is like you'd never know
when you're going to be standingin the elevator with a VP, or a
director of another department.
And it's like, have somethingany open forum you go to have a
question? Ready? I love that,like elevated conversation on

(11:04):
the fly. That is so so great.

Yeah, and it definitely comes in handy. You
know, I found myself in thosesituations where I'm with the
President, and she'll ask me onerandom thing, and I'm just ready
for that quick piece offeedback, because I'm ready to
go. So keep that in mind. Yeah,that's a that's a nugget from my
M.Ed program director just havethat elevator conversation.

Yeah, you're gonna have to do it every day.
Hopefully, you can pair it withsomething positive. So you're
not coming into work like, oh, Ihave to do this five minute
report every day. Because thereare little tedious
administrative things that wehave to do, but we can find a
way to make it more positive. Iwould encourage you to try that.

Alana, I love that.
Like on episode 007 we talkedabout overthinking is like
soundtracks and how often wehave bad soundtracks playing in
our heads. This soundtrack is aperfect one to flip instead of
thinking, "these menial reportsare a waste of my time," I'd
flip that and start tellingmyself, "these reports provide
me an opportunity to demonstratehow consistent I am." Because
don't kid yourself, everyonewants to be a shining star of

(12:09):
greatness as a staff member. Butyou know what I want from my
staff more than blazes ofgreatness? Consistency. Five
minutes a day to show my bosshow I'm the most consistent
employee they have? I take thatopportunity any day. Hell, I'd
even tell my boss anytimesomebody is on vacation, I'll
take an extra five minutes to dotheirs, too. So that might be
one way to make it a little bitmore palatable is to think about

(12:31):
like what, even though it'ssmall, there's like, what kind
of benefit? Are you getting outof demonstrating consistency in
those areas?

So So choose your battles kind of thing? You
know, maybe this isn't theadministrative task you want to
have. You want to fight, youknow, if this is really one
quick thing that's going tohappen for five minutes every
day, it's not going to be thelast administrators task you
have to do that seems menial andpointless. So choose your
battles.

And then also, I would think about like, if
you're if you're not getting anytraction with your supervisor,
and like, why are we doingthese? And you're trying, like,
how do we get out of them? Well,you may learn that you can't get
out of them. But maybe you canadvocate in such a way where
it's like, Is it reallynecessary to do it every day
anymore? Like, is this somethingas I learned more? Or is this
something maybe we can doMonday, Wednesday, Fridays, or

(13:24):
Mondays and Thursdays orsomething like that, like, you
can't always get the victory youwant of not doing these things,
but you might be able to make ita little bit more manageable.
And if you actually advocate andgot that to happen, Boy, I bet
you'd be the hero among all yourother peers who are doing these
things, too.
Is there a particular way? Iguess, the follow up or the
particular way? Like they'vespecifically asked how do we
address it without beingannoying? Is there another

(13:45):
strategy that either of youwould suggest just talking to
their supervisor?

You know, I know, they they, I think in the
letter had mentioned that theyhad mentioned it to their
supervisor. And honestly, if thesupervisor said, we just got to
do it, you know, I think likeyou mentioned, it's probably
code for either. I don't knowwhy. And that's above my
paygrade. Or I had to do it, youhave to do it, we just all got
to do it. And sometimes beingokay with having a vague

(14:12):
response, like you may you maynot get to the nuts and bolts of
every single decision or whythings have to happen. So you
have to sometimes be okay withjust not knowing

Oh, I think I mean, yes, you did ask her any
but maybe applying it more tothe position like I want to be
able to find value in the thingsthat I'm doing. And so I just
want to know, like, how is thisimpacting my role? Maybe How can
I do better? How can I applythis more to my position? I
don't know if that maybe changeof lens would do anything for

(14:46):
them instead of just why do Ihave to do this?

I would also ask this person to reflect upon was
the timing right the first timearound because sometimes we get
short answers when the timing isbad and You know, maybe that's
not fair to the person askingthe question, but sometimes the
greatest skill is recognizinglike, is the moment is this the
golf shot right now? And itcould be any number of reasons.

(15:12):
And one of the last thing I wantto think about is these those
dumb reports, and I don't wantto answer any questions about
it. So maybe the timing waswrong. And so approaching your
supervisor be like, I had askedabout this before, maybe the
timing wasn't right, but thenlaunching into what you were
saying a lot about that thosekind of follow up of like, I'd

(15:32):
like to be a better employee orlike to know a little bit more
so I can get get more or giveprovide more to the department.
The next item out of the inboxhas been fielded by the guests
of Episode 007, JasmineJennings, Senior Coordinator for
Students, Staff Recruitment,Training and Advising at Baylor
University, and Sarah Frick,Assistant Director for Apartment

(15:52):
and Residence Life at theUniversity of Texas at
Arlington.
Dear J.C., my supervisor, anAssistant Director, recently
moved on, which obviously left avacancy in my department, I'm in
my third year and the minimumjob experience for the AD role
is three years with a preferredrequirement of five years
experience. I want to apply, butI'm anxious to do so because

(16:15):
I've never interviewed as aninternal candidate. I think it
would be weird to interview withpeople I work with all day,
every day, if I don't get thejob, I think it would be really
weird returning to work. I'llhave a boss who got a job I
wanted. And what if they don'tcount my years of experience
because it isn't three fullyears. But it's CLOSE! I think I

(16:39):
would be a good fit for the job.
My annual performanceevaluations have been strong.
And I've done good work in mybuilding and on my committees.

So my questions are this (16:44):
What should I be thinking about when
determining if I should apply ornot? And do you have any advice
for internal candidates? And ifI do apply and don't get it, how
are things I'm going to be in mywork environment? Thanks so
much, Internalized Candidate

Sara Frick (17:06):
Well, that is a very good question. A very detailed,
and also for me hits very closeto home, I can relate very
deeply to this question as priorto me being Assistant Director
at UTA, I was a Residencedirector here. So to get this

(17:26):
job, I was an internal candidatefor this position. But even
before I got this job and wentthrough the process of being an
internal candidate, I hadapplied a year and a half before
that, for another assistantdirector position that was open
in my office. And I did spoilerI didn't get it. So I went

(17:51):
through two processes of exactlythe same. So I can totally
relate to these feelings thatyou are having of the
anxiousness of how to deal withinterviewing of people that you
know, and you work with day today, and what's it going to be
like, if you don't get it? Ithink a couple things that I

(18:12):
would say. One is, in myexperience, I have no regrets
about applying, you know thatfirst time even though I didn't
get it, and that I think peopleare going to be a lot more
supportive than you may think inyour head that it is I think you
think through things too much,you think about what that's

(18:33):
going to be like, and it's moreon you than it is on them. So I
know when I interviewed and Imade it to the final round. And
when I didn't get it, I was likegoing to work is going to be the
worst possible thing in thewhole world. And then I got
there. And maybe it was awkwardfor like the first day. But I

(18:55):
think that's because I thoughtthat it was awkward and not
because the other people thoughtthat it was awkward. And I think
I learned a lot through thatexperience. And people were
really supportive. My friendsthat I worked along with were
encouraging of me as theyinterviewed me and those
processes. And then when I wentthrough the second time, it
helped me to have a better graspon that. And obviously, very

(19:17):
happy that I did that as I gotthe new position. But I think it
provides you different uniqueperspectives as well. You learn
a lot through that process. AndI think for you, if you have
three years of experience andyou know that you are good at
your job, I think that it'sworth it to put yourself out
there to take the risk tochallenge yourself to that and

(19:40):
that it's only going to be asawkward as you think it is. But
even more so people want you tosucceed and your office and they
care about your well being so Iknow there was also mentioned of
what about that person that getsit that if they get it and I
don't. Again, they may not knowthat you interviewed it Say
you're not another internalperson, they may not be aware of

(20:03):
that. And I think, again, it'sall about how your perspective
of going into it. And I think ifyou go in saying, I am going to
put it all out there and knowthat at the end of the day, I
did what I could, that that'swhat's most important. And then
if you don't get it, talk toyour supervisor, I know, I
talked with our director of ouroffice and was like, Can you

(20:24):
provide me some feedback? Whatcan I do this is what I really
hope to get to in the future.
And, and you know, she, sheshared with me, you know, you
were great, it was nothingspecific for you, the the other
person had a little bit moreexperienced than you. And that's
kind of where I fell. And then,you know, I waited a year and a
half, and I applied again, and Igot it and not saying that,
that's everybody's story. But Ithink at the end of the day, you

(20:46):
need to be able to put yourselfout there. And it's, it's hard.
And it's not always easy if youdon't get it, but the reward is
always worth it. And I thinkpeople will be more encouraging
than you think that they will.

Jasmine Jennings (21:00):
I echo everything Sara has said thus
far, I would say if you meet thequalification, the minimum
qualifications, you should shootyour shot. If you feel that you
have all the experience andcould do well in the position as
you were with any position, youshould definitely put yourself
out there. And if you don't getthe position, at least you have
the experience. And that willprepare you not only for maybe

(21:23):
another opening within yourdepartment, but maybe for
another institution, you've hadthat practice, you know that
experience like and you will bemore prepared for the next time
you interview. So I'd say shootyour shot. And then afterwards,
say if you don't get theposition, seek feedback, if
there is feedback to be providedto you. But also to you know,

(21:44):
you may want to be open andshare with your close friends or
your close colleagues, like,Hey, I went through the process,
I didn't make it, I would lovesome support while I'm
experiencing or explore myemotions, you know, letting
people know that you may feeldiscouraged if you do feel
discouraged. Or you know, if youjust want to spend some time

(22:05):
with some people after goingthrough the process just to help
you cope. But just to help youkind of work through what you're
feeling. I think that is alsohealthy. That is also okay. But
at the minimum shoot your shot,shoot your shot, shoot your
shot.

Yeah, strong cosign to shooting your shot. Because
by not applying, you never know.
And if you're still on thefence, and you don't know, maybe
I want to do it, maybe Idon't... still apply, because
you can always withdraw later.
But once that applicationcloses, you're done. And like
there's there's no chance unlessit gets reopened. And I

(22:42):
remember, I sat on the fence fora job that I was really
interested in. And it wasn't aninternal job. But it was five
o'clock on a day I turned it inat like six o'clock that day.
And a feedback I got when Ifollowed up with it was like you
missed the deadline. I was likeit's the same day. But you can
always pull out later, but youcan't insert it later. And so

(23:03):
yeah, strong cosign to thatJasmine, I love that shoot your
shot. I think about theawkwardness and believe it or
not as awkward as you may feelor project you're going to feel
when interviewing them havinginterviewed internal candidates
before it is incredibly awkwardon the other side of the table
as well. And when I've sharedthat with people as internal

(23:25):
candidates who like if we'reeven going to be interviewing
within my own departments likeit's going to be really awkward
for us. So hopefully that kindof manages expectations a little
bit that you're not the only onethat's going to kind of feel
that way. So don't spend down wewe all talked on your all's
episode about everything he'slike, don't spend down that
rabbit hole, the awkward is onlybecause of you. It is because of

(23:47):
the other people in the room arealso feeling a little bit of
that. It may be differentdegrees, some may be more the
most will probably be a littlebit less, but it is a little bit
awkward.
As for advice, I would just say,crush it until it posts and just
deliver constantly deliver. Ithink there's an exciting thing
about being an internalcandidate is you get to present

(24:08):
yourself in a particular way toyour departments like I'm pretty
great. And here's all thereasons why. And like good
assessment data, it should makeit really easy to say yes. Or
really difficult to say no. AndI think that's kind of a
position of like, I want you asmy leadership of this department
to see what I've been doing andin that way. And I think that's

(24:31):
kind of kind of exciting. Butone thing I would also add about
internals is like take advantageof what you've got to offer.
Kent Sampson in episode onetalked about being an internal
candidate we joke the benefit ofbeing an internal candidate is
everybody knows you. Well, thechallenge also is well everybody
knows you. But there are waysthat internals have an advantage

(24:53):
because like, I've got a ton ofgreat stories I would love to
share in interviews, but theyrequire 45 minutes of backstory,
because of either campuspolitics, that program is too
complicated like it takesforever to lead into. But you
don't have to go into all thosedetails if you get an interview
because everybody knows aboutit. So you can kind of surface

(25:13):
over a lot of those and reallyget some good examples, because
everybody in the room alreadyknows them. And so then you can
offer your perspective. And Ithink if you end up not getting
the job, guess what, there is alot of power and showing up to
work the next day and movingahead. And I think that's an
impressive behavior. And I'vebeen an internal, not a

(25:34):
department on internal buteither a division or a
university, internal candidate,with people I've known very
well. And, you know, you get thecall, you don't get the job, you
go home, had my little pityparty. And I guess what I did, I
went to work the next day. And Ithink there's a lot of power in
showing up when even if you'relike, upset on the inside of

(25:56):
just like, I can still do myjob. And I think there's some
some value in that. Sara, didyou ever find out if the person
who got the job the first timearound knew that you were in the
pool?

Sara Frick (26:08):
I actually have no idea. I need to ask. So maybe
that will be my assignment is toask her as we are now
colleagues.

Yeah, report back to us on that.

Sara Frick (26:21):
Yeah, I'll let y'all know.

Yeah. And all of our listeners, you know. Any
closing thoughts forInternalized Candidate?

Sara Frick (26:30):
I think just don't be don't overthink it. We talked
in our our episode. And I think,you know, you being an internal
candidate, the really positivething is that they know your
work ethic, if you really aregood at your job, and you know,
you're qualified, that thatspeaks volumes to you as a
candidate. So go in there haveconfidence, and show that you

(26:54):
can do the job.

Jasmine Jennings (26:55):
I would say per our overthinking book, when
our author talks aboutresilience, resilience is is
when you get back up again. Andso once you go through this
process, and if you don't getthe position, like both J.C. and
Sarah have said, you know it, itmeans a lot when you come back
to work and you show up stillready to do your job.

Definitely. And speaking of overthinking like, I
wouldn't fixate too much on the"Do I have three years of
experience if I'm close.
Different places count itdifferent ways. And you're
you're in a position where youcan actually ask that question
if you wanted, to be like, likesome places I've been have
counted grads, like a full yearof grad school accounts as half
a year as full time work orsomething like that, or, you

(27:39):
know, but still apply. And ifyou get cut, you get cut early
on, because you don't have theexperience and nobody has to
know and it's that makes it alittle bit easier. But you also
have the position where you cankind of ask about those things.
Our next question is beingfielded by the guests of Episode

010 (27:54):
Monique Berkeley, a Residence Director at the
University of Texas at Arlingtonand Maggie Guzman, the Assistant
Director for Risk Management atTexas A&M University. Our
J.C., so I screwed up. There wasthis big program in our in our
department and I had theresponsibility of confirming
participation details with someof our campus partners. I

(28:17):
completely forgot to do it,which was revealed in one of our
regular meetings with our campuspartners, and they were shocked
to know that they had someresponsibilities they knew
nothing about. I was soembarrassed and mortified that I
just froze and my supervisorlooked at me, he must have known
that I didn't do what I said Iwas going to do by the deer in
the headlights look I probablyhad. He quickly interjected and

(28:40):
said he was extremely sorry thathe had neglected to reach out to
confirm details and would workindividually with them after the
meeting to catch them up anddiscuss anything he could do to
help them get caught up. Sobasically, my supervisor took
the fall for my mistake in avery public way. He shouldn't
have had to do this, but he did.
And now I don't know what to doabout it. Do I say anything to

(29:01):
my supervisor? Do I go to thosecampus partners and tell them it
was my mistake? Why would hetake the blame for my mistake?
Sincerely, Blame GameBenefactor.

Maggie Guzman (29:15):
Wow.

It's quite the story.

Yeah, that's a heck of a supervisor right
there.

Monique Burkley (29:22):
Shout to the supervisor or style shout out to
the supervisor. Yeah.

Let's address the last question. First is why
would a supervisor take theblame in that capacity?

So my first thought was okay, if this was
me, what would motivate me to dothat? Right? Perhaps the
supervisor felt like they failedin following up with the
employee to make sure theemployee was staying on top of
the communication with thepartners. That's my first
thought. So maybe the supervisorthought oh, I'm partly to blame

(29:56):
"Hey, Did you confirm with allof the campus partners?", that's
that's kind of my firstinclination.

I would agree with that. Because like, as a
supervisor, that's, that's whoyou're responsible for, you're
responsible for their actionsand guiding them and making sure
that they're meeting theirrequirements don't necessarily
do the work for them. But you'rethat accountability piece. So
similar to what Maggie wassaying, like, I feel like the
supervisor felt some part of toblame on not following up and
making sure that those thingswere done. But as well as I

(30:29):
could have just simply beentrying to shield their
supervisee. Maybe theyunderstood where they were
coming from, they knew that theycould take the, you know, the
heat more so than thesupervisee. So I just think they
were being a great supervisor,first and foremost, just kind of
shielding and protecting their,you know, very important
employee.

Yeah, I agree, Monique, I think there's from a
capital lens, sometimes there'smore value in like, the boots on
the ground. And like, you know,say it was a Hall Director,
sometimes there's more value inthat person having a strong
relationship than the supervisorbecause of the interactions or
the day to day or, like yousaid, the supervisor has a
little more clout that they cansacrifice a little bit of that

(31:11):
capital to keep the superviseein a position of competence with
the partners.

I would also say I think that if I mean, I don't
know that this did they say theywere a new, a new employee?
Anyway, I'm just kind ofassuming that this person is
probably a new employee juststarting their career. This
could be one of those, like,make it or break it reputational
moments for that employee,right? And so maybe the
supervisor recognizes that anddoesn't want this one. You know

(31:43):
shortcoming to have that kind oflasting impact on who the
employee is as a professional onthat campus, and is willing to
fall on that sword for them.

Well, and I think the make It or break, it might,
in my opinion, might be a littledramatic, but also in the sense
of like, the personality of thatperson could be a thing of like,
is this going to set them like,oh, my gosh, I just, I'm gonna
go cry in my office for the nextthree weeks based on this one
moment, or, you know, therecould be a little bit of cover
where it's going to be moreimpactful to take the blame.

(32:15):
Alright, now we're going tofollow up and more developmental
setting, very private setting.
So that very well could be thecase.
Okay, so what do we do? What isthis person? What does he do
about it? Does he say anythingto his supervisor?

I will say most definitely, that's my first
after the meeting is over. So myfirst thing to do is just go to
my supervisor, thank them fortheir sacrifice. But also just
see what we can do from here,like, come up with an action
plan. Like from this point on,I'm involved, whether that is
sending reminders, helping andsitting in on those meetings,

(32:48):
maybe taking some task away fromthe campus partners. From that
point on, I'm in overdrive,trying to see what I can do to
rectify a situation. But I thinkdefinitely going to your
supervisor, and justacknowledging like, no excuses,
just be like, Hey, I dropped theball on these, it slipped my
mind, there's no particularreason it just happened. And
then seeing not doing too muchon the mistake, but what we can

(33:10):
do to make whatever partnershipwe have an event coming up
successful. So just thatownership piece, and just
acknowledging that you messed upand see what you can do from
there.

Yeah, absolutely.
As a supervisor, I would wayway, way rather have one of my
employees come in, acknowledge,hey, here's the mistake, I'm
going to own it. Because I knowthat that person is probably
punishing themselves, way morethan anything I could do or say,
right, it's, you know, I'm surethat they're feeling terrible

(33:41):
about it, they're going to thinkabout it, it's going to live
with them for a really longtime. And so, I agree that just
owning it, acknowledging itdefinitely is like you need to
do that. And honestly, I wouldalso say if that person feels
like they have a goodrelationship with their
supervisor, ask the supervisor"explain to me why you did

(34:06):
that." Like I thinkdevelopmentally learning, kind
of why our supervisors make thedecisions they make. That can be
a huge learning moment for thatemployee. You know, so if that
reasons, not obvious, just askthe supervisor, hey, I really
appreciate that. I don'tunderstand why you did it. So
can you kind of give me a littlebit of insight into what you

(34:29):
were thinking and what yourreason was? That can, you know,
that can really teach thatemployee something about
supervision and being a goodsupervisor.

I think that's a great thing. The more questions
we can ask that help, you know,we are who we are based on
adapting from supervisors, youknow, things we want to emulate
things we want to avoid doingand now we are who we are. And I
think anytime you can get alittle bit of insight because
you never know if you reflectenough You probably have
probably you probably have donethe same thing for somebody that

(35:04):
reports to you, maybe not in asbig of a scale or in a grand
like a quite so public, buthopefully everybody's covered
for it. Because ultimately, assupervisors, like, it's all your
fault that, like anything thathappens is your fault, whether
that's through, you know, didn'tprovide good enough training,
good enough expectations, goodenough follow up, good enough

(35:25):
support, like there's any numberof reasons. But, you know, if
you got a supervisor that says,Yeah, you screwed up, but it's
my fault. Ask them about that.
Process that with them, becausethat's a, in my opinion, a good
trait to have and to emulate ifyou can.

yeah, absolutely.
I think too, as a supervisor,you know, what I mean? I would
be willing to bet that employeeis going to be loyal to that
supervisor until the end. Youknow, and I would be willing to
bet you to that mistake willnever be repeated again. You
know, I think any good employee,your number one priority should

(36:05):
be making your boss's jobeasier, or at least staying off
the radar, not causing problems,right?

Strong cosign.

you know, so acknowledging, okay, I made this
mistake, I'm not going to do itagain. And I appreciate that
you, you know, kind of took onefor the team here. You know, I
think that that goes a reallylong way in gaining the
supervisor, loyalty and respect,but also ensuring that the
employee doesn't make the samemistake again.

it's something I would just add for the, the
supervisee. To do. So from thatpoint on, I feel like it's a
little bit of gaining yoursupervisors trust back like so
including them on and thingsthat you typically wouldn't
have, like, see seeing them onemails to the campus partners
and other departments just tokind of build that trust back
up, because I feel like,naturally, that is a little bit

(36:58):
was lost. So just knowing thatyou might have to put in extra
work and go the extra mile, justto mend that relationship as
well. Because it's not just aone sided relationship. So just
kind of being sure that you're,you know, taking accountability
and willing to do the work toget back in, you know, good
graces.

So should this person go to the campus partners
and admit to them that it wastheir mistake and not their
boss's and apologize for that?

I would say no, I don't know. I just said, If
this seems like a very, likesacrificial lamb move, like I
think is not necessary. I thinkat that point, the work wasn't
done. The campus partners is, Imean, ideally, that you might,
they're going to place it on adepartment. Regardless, I think
it's a reflection of thedepartment. So from that point
on, I just feel like you shouldspend more time putting that
work in to correct the mistake,then, I don't know if that makes

(37:48):
you feel a little bit betterabout something, but it really
does nothing for the issue. So Iwouldn't say go to the campus
partner, because it just doesnothing.

I would agree with that. And I would also add
that it may even further damage,the reputation or the
relationship between thesupervisor and the partner,
because then it looks like thesupervisor lied about it. Right?
Like, even though it's a goodand valiant thing to do, like

(38:18):
take responsibility and shieldthe employee. The fact of the
matter is, it's not really whathappens. So it could cause
further harm, I think and kindof undermine, probably what the
supervisor was trying to do bytaking responsibility for it in
the first place.

Well, and I think that's going back to the
conversation about have adialogue with your supervisor,
like, there's a level of guiltwhen someone's take
responsibility for one of ourerrors or whatever, like, I
totally get and respect that.
But like, express that, and I'dlike to do this, and then there
will be more information givenabout. No, you really don't need
to do that. And you shouldn'tand here's why. And I agree with

(38:58):
both of you on what you said islike, I certainly wouldn't do it
without telling your boss first.
Because that could be adisaster. But, you could have a
good conversation with yoursupervisor about it. And then
they're like, Okay, if youreally feel like you need to do

(39:20):
this, you feel some sort of likeobligation or responsibility.
Let me set that up and kind offacilitate it. Because you never
know, the campus partners couldalso be like, this is a
developmental opportunity.

Yeah, yeah. Yes.
Talking to the supervisor first.
Yeah. 100% agree with that.

All right. So to the person who wrote in, let us
know how it turns out.
Our final question is beingfielded by Apefa Cooper from
Episode 010. Our listenerwrites:
J.C., We have been interviewingcandidates for full time
positions, and many candidateshave been asking us how our
department supportsProfessionals of Color. Often,

(40:01):
I'm the only Professional ofColor on the interview team. And
when that question gets asked,everyone freezes and looks to me
to answer, like, I'm the onlyone who can answer that
question. What do you suggest Ido in the situation? And while I
feel my department has beenpretty supportive overall, what
if I didn't? Thanks for theadvice. Love the show.

So, Apefa (40:26):
What do you think about this question?

Apefa Cooper (40:30):
I think that's a very interesting question. And
surprisingly, and maybe notsurprising. It actually did
happen to me once and and onething I would say in reflecting
on that I'm not sure if I playedit out, or did exactly what I'm
about to share. But because ithappened so many times, there

(40:52):
were times where I haven'tblurted out, right? But one
thing to think about is, maybepausing. If people are pausing
during your with them, right. Ifthey're pausing and looking to
you, then enjoy the awkwardnessof the pause and giving someone
else the opportunity to share,and then no one shares right,

(41:14):
then, then maybe that is aquestion that at the end of the
interview, you can, if you'rebrave enough, right, and you
have a relationship, bringing itup to the panel, right and
saying, I noticed that there wasthis awkward pause when that
question was asked, and is theresomething that we want to talk
about as a group, right? And sothat's one that's a high high

(41:38):
level when it comes to if you'rebrave enough to act to, to get
to that point.
Now, the second one is, youknow, I think one of the ways
that and then may have been atime that I did this, but the
one of the things that I did wasturning it back to my my
colleagues and saying, you know,I have something to share, but I

(41:59):
want to hear what my colleagueshave to say. Right? And there
was no malintent was just sayingthat those know, you're not
trying to call them out, but itis maybe inviting them into that
conversation and turning theirback on them and saying, you
know, like, I know that I havemy own experiences. However, I
would love to hear what mycolleagues have to say first,

(42:20):
and then I will share. And ifand if you don't have anything,
anything to say, where you don'tfeel like your department is
supportive? I do think there is,and there is a word for this
when it comes to the cabinetlevel, the level of being

(42:42):
professional and mature when itcomes to an interview process,
right. And so if this isn't yourinterview, another full time
professional, maybe pouring itall out there during that
interview time may not be thebest time. And so one thing I
encourage you to do is going intalking to your supervisor, here
are here are the things that arehappening within our department,

(43:04):
here are the ways that I don'tfeel supported. And this is what
these are my experiences basedon that question. And I think
you'll be interested in to hearwhat your response would have
been, right? If you had beencompletely on s3, or if you had
shared in that moment. And so,you know, that's, that's one way

(43:24):
that I will I will approachthat.
If I was, you know, if I everfind myself in that situation, I

think, one (43:31):
reading the room, knowing who my other colleagues
are, am I well, I want to alsoenjoy the awkward silence and
waiting to see what they have tosay. And the candidate is like,
Okay, well, next question. Andwe all move on, right, and then
addressing the elephant in theroom afterwards. And secondly,
you know, inviting them into theconversation, and when to

(43:54):
actually think through thatright? And then also, if your
department is not supportive,finding somebody that you do
trust could be in line with yoursupervisors and above or, or
somebody you do trust that youcan share that with and to start
that conversation. And now thereare other I could go on and on

(44:16):
about some other layers rightwith this. And so you see if you
want to invite me back for apodcast just to talk about this,
I will come back but I just thisand I'll leave you with three,
three different differentapproaches to this.

I'm gonna take you up on that offer. But I will
also fully admit that I'mbasically doing the same thing
to you now that this person whowrote in was talking about is
like asking you to speak onbehalf of this situation. But I
think about it from myperspective. It's like some of
these things I think theawkwardness pauses is like

(44:51):
fantastic like a strategy oflike, let everyone else revel in
their own fragility for a fewmoments. Just to have that
experience. And I think aboutbecause you and I had talked
about this previously, a while,a long time ago, and I, I don't
know for sure, because again, isa white man who struggles with

(45:12):
his own white fragility, as muchas the next one. Like, I'd like
to believe in that moment, if Iwas like, in a position of
authority, that, and I noticedthis was happening, I would
speak up and say, here's what Ibelieve our department has done
to help support Professionals ofColor, and strategies we've
employed, and then defer toanyone else in the room that, I

(45:36):
hope that's what we've providedthat environment. And if we
haven't, I'm open to morefeedback. And if there was
something particular someoneneeds, I hope that we've
instilled an environment thatthey can vocalize that and share
that. Again, I'd like to believethat's why I do it.
But it's like, it's crazy.
Because let's say, you shouldsee this coming a mile away.
Like, especially after themurder of George Floyd, it's

(45:59):
like, of course, everycandidate, or every Professional
of Color of the candidate isgoing to be asking this, and yet
nobody was prepared for it.

And I will say this, and I'll give you an
insider scoop, most of the time,J.C., when that other
Professional of Color at thecandidate is alone in the room
with another they asked this,just tell me, tell me, tell me
the real and, and it happens.
And I you know, and again, maybeit's just me, but I promise it
happens more often than youthink. Right? When they're just

(46:33):
Yeah, and they'll come find you,you know. And so I think it
would definitely be aninteresting topic to explore of
what it's like to have goinginto a campus even after you've
gotten that job interview andlooking for other professionals
of color, just so you can feellike okay, you're not alone in
this right. And maybe I'm, youknow, I'm alone in this thought,

(46:55):
or maybe not, right? But I willsay that it, it's definitely a
topic and a big, big topicwithin the Professionals of
Color is finding, finding yourpeople, right? And so, again, I
know this is not for everybody,and no, not all Professionals of

(47:16):
Color would think this way. Andso I'm wanting to clear that.
But I will say that morenighttime night, nine out of 10
times, people are coming back,or they're emailing separately
and saying, Hey, like Iconnected with you, can you tell
me really what it's like there?

Well, and I'd love your answer about, or your
suggestion of like, in a wrap upinterview, like that's a
perfectly legitimate question toask. It's like, Hey, we're
closing out the day, I had thisobservation and just wanted to
whoever is coordinating theinterview, again, I would only
imagine it would be anincredibly challenging
conversation to have. And Ican't put myself in those shoes.

(47:58):
But I think about like,sometimes the questions we ask
are going to reveal more aboutculture than any other
observations. And how a personin a position of power either
rises to the occasion in thatmoment and satisfies whatever
concerns we're having, orcompletely stumbles over, it is
going to be more revealing aboutthe culture, then whatever words

(48:20):
are actually said.

Yeah, and I will say this, I think also sometimes
just being vulnerable, and beinghonest about, hey, we're working
through it, right. Like, wedon't have it figured out. And
sometimes that's all, that's allthat I would want to hear.
Right. It's like, and we're, youknow, we're, we're brand new
staff, or we're building ourteam, and you happen to be the

(48:41):
only Professional of Color,however, know that we're working
through it, and we have somethings to work on. I will take
that answer over, you know,yeah, we will support you, you
know, if you need any. No, Iwant you to give me the real
answer. I want to hear that.

Yeah. And I think that's, I love that. And I think
it's important, again, from aplanning standpoint, like you
should see this coming a mileaway. And it's like, yeah, it's
gonna be a super awkwardconversation. I imagine to be
like, Okay, everyone on staffthat's gonna be interviewing
people, like, we need to beprepared for this. We want
people to be honest and candid.
And that's also a selfreflection moment for a
department. If we don't knowwhat people are going to say in

(49:21):
that question, you probablyaren't doing it well enough to
begin with. And if you haveconcerns like, ignoring it, it's
not going to go away. Like it'sstill gonna be happening,
whether it actually happens inthe interview or on the side,
like you were saying, thedepartment can be doing more to
plan ahead for that.

Right, right.
Yeah.

And that's it.
Thanks to the four people whowrote in. Some of these have
been sitting in the inbox for awhile. So while the answers may
not have actually helped you,hopefully they've helped others.
Write in with any questions youmight have. The link is in the
show notes. And a big thanks toeveryone who listened to this
year. I've got a couple ofspecial episodes cooked up

(50:04):
waiting to be recorded. So I'mexcited for the upcoming year.
But I do need your help. If youwant to talk about anything,
anything at all, write me anemail. We don't even really need
a topic. Just get some of yourfavorite colleagues together who
want to talk shop and Iguarantee we'll have some fun.
And with that, I say to you,good day.

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