Brett Richardson is a Wellington swimmer who swam across Cook Strait (Te Moana-o-Raukawa) in 2020 and Foveaux Strait (Te Ara a Kiwa) in 2024. He swims in the ocean year round, often early in the morning – which, in winter, means it’s pitch black in the water (aside from his head torch) from start to finish. In this episode Brett shares how his swimming grew from new-to-ocean-swimming to marathon level, the strategies he incorporates for successful long swims, and the joy of getting in the sea every week – no matter what the weather’s up to.
Health and safety note: Brett is a highly experienced ocean swimmer. If you’re new to sea swimming the best advice is to join a local group, start in the warmer months, check the conditions before you get in, and stick close to shore as you grow in confidence and ability.
Brett’s YouTube video of his Foveaux Strait swim
‘After 10 hours, Brett Richardson emerges from Cook Strait hypothermic and victorious’ (Stuff, November 27 2020)
NZ Sports page for Meda McKenzie, who swam Cook Strait at 15 years old in 1978.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Welcome to the Swim Chats podcast.
I'm Shona Riddell, a writer, former journalist and ocean
swimmer from Wellington, Alteredo and New Zealand.
For each episode, I'll feature adifferent guest from our swim
community. There'll be dippers, adventure
swimmers, coaches and conservationists with one thing
in common. They all love being in the sea,
(00:24):
so whether you're a swimmer yourself or just interested in
stories about the ocean and people expanding their comfort
zones, I hope you enjoy these Swim Chats.
Please hit, follow or subscribe so you don't miss an episode.
Brett, welcome to Swim Chats. Thank you.
We are live. I was thinking we're sort of
like ships in the night because we're both in Bob Watson's
(00:47):
group. But you must swim earlier than I
do, so you're. Normally there at 8 are you?
Yes, that's right. I'm one of the Sunday 8:00 crew.
So I think you're well done and dusted with your swim by then,
is that right? Yeah, I'm, I'm usually in at 7.
7 And is that all year round? All year round.
(01:07):
Amazing. Yep.
And are you in any other swim groups as well?
I swim. No, it's all, it's all Bob
Watson. Actually we swim 9 I Saturday
morning 5:45 and then on Saturday and then of course
Sunday. Sea swims Tuesday, Thursday 5:30
(01:31):
at Cannons Creek in the morning and then Wednesday back at
Oriental Bay 6:00 AM. 6:00 AM. So in the dark.
Bright and early, yeah. So I'm keen to talk to you about
swimming in the dark because notmany, not many people do that.
Yeah. So at the moment, at the moment
it's definitely dark. We're coming into the shorter
(01:52):
days, just before winter I should say.
Temperatures about 14°. At the moment it's it's a wee
bit warmer. I I think it's still around 15
something. I don't think it's quite got
down to 14 yet, but it won't be long.
Yeah. Are you quite into the metrics?
Do you like to know the temperatures and the times and
(02:13):
all that sort of thing? Sometimes, probably more for
other people's swims rather thanmy own.
I, you know, sometimes not knowing is easier.
You just sort of turn up. Oh yeah, It's got a little bit
colder, yeah. And.
Just yeah, that's. So true, yeah.
(02:33):
Get on with it, you know? Yeah, don't worry about it too
much. Yeah, but do you swim early in
the morning really to fit it around the rest of your life, is
that or do you think you're a morning person?
I find. Yeah.
I find if I don't do it, then itthere's a chance that it won't
happen. And so I think it is a making it
(02:57):
a priority and and you're saying, well, yeah, squeeze it
in, put it in first and then andthen the rest of life sort of
falls in around that. So swimming in the dark, you
have lights that you carry, is that right?
Yeah. So we, yeah, generally put a
light on on my Google strap at the back and, and, and yeah,
(03:22):
that just lets everybody see you, you know, you connect with
other swimmers and any other water users that happen to be
out there. Which to be honest, at this time
of the year, there's not a lot. There's the odd sort of Walker
armor crew that will go out thatthat's about it.
(03:44):
And how far do you like to go? We sort of do probably again
this time of the year, you'll get out to the lighthouse once a
month sort of thing that that, yeah, it just gets start
(04:05):
starting to get shorter and, youknow, and, and keep it in close
just to, you know, for safety reasons really for, you know,
hypothermia and stuff like that.Yeah.
And so for people who don't swimout to the lighthouse, so that's
about a a 2 1/2 K return trip. So it's not a not a short swim
(04:30):
for most people. And yeah.
And what does it, what does it feel like?
I suppose because the the time you're swimming, do you get to
see the sun rises? Yeah, yeah, you do.
Although, although we're, we're just about at the point where
it's, it's dark when you hop in and dark when you hop out, you
(04:50):
know, but, but certainly, you know, as the season changes,
it's, it's just such a, a beautiful place to be at that
time of today, You know, to hop in when it's dark and then, as
you say, to, to see the sky starting to get blue and then,
you know, finally light sort of appears.
(05:11):
It's, it's pretty surreal. It's pretty cool.
Yeah. And are you swimming in the
dark? Are you sort of mindful of being
in the ocean at that time in terms of marine life?
Like is that something you're conscious of when you're
swimming? Or are you, have you been doing
it long enough that you you, you're not faced?
No, look, I'm I'm not faced. I, I think, I think I dealt with
(05:36):
with that fear long time ago. And did you deal with the fear
simply by continuing to get in the water or was there?
Absolutely. Just just just by ignoring it
really, I mean, knowing the odds, you know, the odds are are
so slim. I think there was one shark
(05:59):
attack and death recorded in Wellington way back, you know,
100 years ago out at Wellington Heads.
So, you know, the numbers are, are stacked in my favour.
So yeah, I don't don't really worry about it.
(06:20):
Yeah. And have you always been a sea
swimmer or is this something youtook up as an adult?
As an adult, for me, yeah. How?
How recently? Probably about probably about 14
years ago for me, yeah. Just just really wanted a group
(06:48):
that that was into, you know, sea swimming and, and that's
where Bob's group, you know, they they did both pool and, and
sea and, and yeah, just just allowed me to sort of feel
confident with other swimmers around to start with.
(07:09):
And but plus, you know, there's there is a place for the pool,
you know, you still need to do your technique type work and and
stuff to. Yeah.
Yeah, to get better. Bob's group is very welcoming
and inclusive, isn't it? Like, isn't it?
It's for all levels which. Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely. It's so much fun.
(07:30):
And So what was the motivation for getting in in the 1st place?
Did you know other people who were doing it or you just were
you training for something? I, I, I think what happened for
me is just just just had this desire to, you know, feel more
(07:52):
comfortable in the open water. And so, so that was sort of
always in the back of my mind. And, and then, yeah, just that
that group atmosphere just makesit so much easier to to take
part, Yeah, to get in and. Yeah, that's awesome.
(08:14):
And so when you're doing your sea swims, are you also focusing
on technique? I do.
Yeah, I do. I think about it a lot.
In fact, you know, people have asked, they say, well, what do
you think about when you're out there for 13 hours?
You know, and, and I see I, I just think about technique.
I, I sort of think about what I'm, I'm doing and and and and
(08:36):
try and keep it tight as it were, yeah.
They're keeping it tight as in keeping not not sort of flailing
your arms about and legs and. That's right, I.
Think. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
definitely. You know, as you get tired,
(08:57):
your, your arms start to go round instead of over.
You know, you get perhaps a bit too relaxed in your core.
Whereas if you, you know, concentrate on keeping that a
wee bit tighter, that sort of gives you better, better
technique. And in Wellington and Oriental
(09:20):
Bay, we get that prevalent northerly wind.
We do. Oh, there's plenty of chop.
So are you pretty comfortable swimming in the chop that like,
does the chop deter you? Do you enjoy it?
I love the calm days, but I guess being, you know, in windy
(09:41):
Wellington, sort of few and far between.
So yeah, I, I enjoy sort of getting out into the chop as
well. It often means you won't go as
far, you know, distance wise, you may choose to not go as far
because it's, you know, wee bit more physically challenging.
(10:06):
But yeah, I, I, I enjoy, enjoy the roughness of it too.
We've had some really rough days.
I remember spending 3/4 of an hour sitting in the car just
watching it, trying to decide are we going to go?
And then finally going, you know, and we got out there and,
(10:28):
and just two of us and we got separated and just sort of
dealing with the conditions. Never ever felt unsafe, you
know, but but you, you know, youjust sort of go with it.
You sort of adapt and then and then come back in.
(10:49):
Yeah, it's an audio podcast, butI'll just say you've got the
biggest smile on your face rightnow.
So you clearly enjoy the CHOP until some people, some people
find it really invigorating and other people find it less so.
But yeah, I'm always interested to talk to people about swimming
in the chop because it's something that I'm always
personally working on. OK, Yeah.
(11:10):
So if you have any tips for how how you swim through the chart
I'd be really interested. Well, just you've just got to,
you know, first thing is stay relaxed, you know, don't, don't
tense up. I know it's, you know, it seems
a hostile environment, but but let's just relax into it.
(11:34):
I feel that the the conditions dictate when you're going to
breathe. There'd be be times when you go
to breathe and you feel, ah, no.I can't.
There's a wave there, you know, and so you just sort of hold on
a little bit longer. If you can bilateral breathe in,
then that's a big advantage to, you know, to be able to face
(11:57):
away from the weather. Yeah.
Awesome. And would you swim in the heavy
rain as well? I'm just conscious of that
because we've got particularly heavy rain right now.
Right now. Are there any?
Are there any conditions you don't swim in?
I guess is my question. Very rare that I wouldn't go.
You know, we had two days of heavy rain last week and I think
(12:26):
it was late in the week and Bob was sort of looking at, oh, do I
cancel or not? And at one stage she said, yeah,
no, I think we have the day off and, and we sort of got talking
about it, a group of us and, andchecked in with John Cleveland.
He, he seems to be the expert onthe water quality.
(12:47):
He, he, he said, no, no, it'll be fine.
So we, we went in on Sunday and you notice the difference in
the, in the layers of water. You know, when there's, there's
fresh water on the top, often it's a wee bit cooler.
(13:08):
But yeah, there's not. I I can't think of many times
that we won't go, you know, it'sjust just something that we do.
Awesome. Well, let's talk about your
marathon swims now. So in 2020, I know you swam
across the cook straight. That's.
Right. And I found an old article on
(13:31):
Stuff and the headline of the article was great.
It says after 10 hours, Brett Richardson emerges from Cook
Straight, hypothermic and victorious, which aren't often 2
words that you you hear together.
What to hear that true? Pretty true.
So hypothermic, I mean, I know that that is relatively common
(13:52):
for people swimming across the cook straight and that you're
swimming in skins and you're getting progressively older I
imagine. That's right.
At the beginning. So how?
How did you come to be swimming across the Cook Straight in the
first place? What was the inspiration behind
it? I'd always sort of held it cook
(14:14):
straight up there as, as the ultimate local swim.
And I just, I remember I was 8 years old and I, I, I remember
Meeta McKenzie swimming cook straight and, and back in those
(14:34):
days, it hit the national headlines.
You know, it was, was big story on the news.
And I, I wasn't really a, a swimmer at that stage, but I
remember, you know, having, having it explained to me.
Oh, she swam from here to there,you know, and, and I just
(14:57):
couldn't fathom it in my mind, but I guess you know it, it must
have sort of sunk in there as a,as a, as a bit of an idea, you
know, way back then. And how old was she?
She was like 15 or. Something She was 15.
Yeah, she was 15 when she did it.
(15:19):
Incredible. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so I guess, you know, that that was perhaps the seed way,
way back then. And it, it didn't surface again
until probably, you know, aroundthat time that I started
swimming with, with Barb, which was I think it was 2012.
(15:43):
And yeah, I never really, I didn't think it was a
possibility. I wasn't working towards it.
But, but in the back of my mind,it was always like, wow, that
would be the ultimate, you know,and then I just started swimming
and, and getting around, you know, this the New Zealand swim
(16:03):
series, the different swims around the country and then then
started to to increase the distance.
Did the epic swim in Taupo, the 10K wet suit for the the first
(16:24):
time, non wet suit the next year.
And then after that just sort ofkept pushing out.
I found an event in Hong Kong which was 15 kilometers, thought
well, let's let's get that distance ago.
(16:46):
And yeah, just just built from there, really.
So with each distance that you were increasing by, did it feel
like a big step each time or didit just feel like something that
happened organically each year? No, it, it did feel like a big
step, you know, I, I think mentally definitely, you know,
(17:08):
you've got to get your, your head around it and.
And how did, how did you do that?
Did you, did you have any sort of techniques or process that
you went through before each one?
Yeah, with, with Hong Kong, I, Ihad the, the, the course all
mapped out and I, I, I knew thatit was off the beach and it was,
(17:33):
you know, 1 1/2 kilometers to the first turn boy.
And then it was 4 kilometers outof the Bay to the next corner.
And, and, and in my head, I, I'dsort of memorized each leg so
that at any point in time when Igot to that point, I knew, you
(17:54):
know, what I had left to go. And, and I think it's, it was
quite handy to sort of break it down into manageable bites.
So instead of focusing on 15, you're focusing on all right,
there's the 1st 1500 meters downand then there's the next 40.
(18:15):
We've done 5/5 and 1/2 K now that you know, you just sort of
had little, little markers and, and just sort of broke it down.
That is such a great idea. Yeah.
I can imagine mentally that would make it feel a lot less
overwhelming. Yeah.
Taking it 1 chunk at a time, yes.
And then you're done. Yes, yes.
(18:38):
Yeah. And so with the with the cook
straight, who trained you for that?
Was it Bub? Was it Phil Rush as well?
His name comes up quite a bit inpodcast.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so I, I did my crossing with
Phil. And what sort of happened is I,
I sort of had this interest in it and I didn't, I hadn't talked
(19:01):
to anybody who'd ever done it. And, and one day I, I heard of a
guy who was planning to do it. And I just heard his name and,
and I heard that he trained at Fryeburg Pool.
And so I basically stalked him. I basically turned up at that
(19:25):
same training session and, and joined that squad.
And it happened to be Phil Rush's squad.
And so, so I, I joined in at theback of, of, of one of the lanes
there and Mark Cronin was the guy's name and he lead, lead
(19:45):
that lane and he's big, strapping, strong man.
And eventually I got to introduce myself to him and, and
just really started to, to, to do some training with him.
When you go, when you decide to go long, you know, there's not
(20:06):
so many people to, to train with.
And so I think he enjoyed, you know, having.
Having me available I I guess, and, and so I just started
following him around. The only way I could keep up
(20:27):
with him was, was if I drafted off him.
He was so quick out in the sea and, and things.
And, and so we spent quite a bitof time together, you know,
training and, and stuff. And then so it was really, you
know, it's really interesting for me being able to talk to
somebody who who, you know, had done a lot more than than what I
(20:52):
had done. And we built up such a good
friendship that when, when it came time for him to do his cook
straight swim, he asked me if I'd like to go with him and be a
support person. And so that was just a dream,
you know, to, to actually get out there on, on the big boat as
(21:16):
he's swimming and, and just takeit all in, you know, see, see
what you have to go through to, to be able to achieve it.
I imagine that would make such abig difference.
Oh, I just. Kept the picture in your mind an
absolutely. Distance and.
Everything that might come up, yeah.
And so that was 2016 and his swim was, was quite tricky as in
(21:50):
the tides and, and I think it was thought that he would do
about 8 hours, which is a reallygood time.
But on the day it was 12 1/2 hours.
So, you know, just such a big, big effort.
(22:12):
Mark finished in the dark and itwas absolutely pitch black.
We, we were on the big boat. We couldn't see him finish, but
we were just listening to the radio and, and getting updates
from the radio and then finally finished, he was brought back to
(22:32):
the boat and, and Mark had hypothermia as well.
And you know, again, it was quite brutal seeing him in the
state and, and just watching that, that recovery.
(22:53):
Did that deter you at all? I didn't, I didn't race.
I didn't race out and put my name there.
I didn't say yes, I want to do this.
So I, I spent, you know, quite abit more time, you know, just
sort of processing and thinking about it and things didn't swap,
didn't stop swimming, kept swimming.
(23:17):
And then there was another lady,Pip Ren, who decided to do it.
And same thing happened. I I started swimming with Pip
and exactly the same thing. Actually she asked me to go as a
support person, so I got to comethe other way for her swim.
(23:40):
She went S to North. And was that based on the the
currents of the day? Yeah, it's, it's based on what
the weather is going to do in the afternoon.
Yeah. So, you know, generally the
weather sort of might get up in the afternoon.
(24:01):
And if it's going to be more favorable to to go one way than
the other, then then that's whatthey decide.
Yeah. Which direction did you swim?
I swam north to South, right? Yeah.
I was reading I read in the staff article about your swim
that you were training 8 * a week for up to five hours at a
(24:24):
time in the pool. Yep.
So up to five hours. What would a typical session be
like? Were you?
Was it based on time or distanceor both?
So what I would do is, yeah, yeah, I, I would sort of have
one endurance set a week. And because we went so early, we
(24:52):
went, I think it was the 14th ofNovember.
So we went very early in the in the season or might have been
the 20th, I can't remember now. What was the water temperature?
It was 14 when I hopped in and it dropped to about 12 when I
hopped. Fresh.
(25:13):
So it was, it was pretty cool, but because it was so early, it
meant that I couldn't do a wholelot of endurance in the sea.
And so, so I sort of did my endurance sets in the pool and I
had a little regime of increasing my time by half an
(25:37):
hour each week. And for that endurance set.
And so, you know, two, 2 1/2, three, 3 1/2 up to, you know,
five hours basically. And at the end of each session,
I would just sit in the pool fora little bit longer and, and
(26:02):
just look at the other end and say to myself, could you do
another extra half hour if you had to?
And I'd say, Yep. And, and, and that was just a,
you know, little visualization sort of exercise that I'd, I'd,
I'd do at the same time. Cool, and with your cook
straight swim, did you map it out the same way you mapped out
(26:23):
your earlier swims? No, there's not the reference
points. And so I was.
Wondering A to B what what endedup happening is I didn't get any
feedback about how I was going until until I had 10 kilometers
(26:50):
to go. And that was a distance that I
knew and, and could sort of process in my mind.
I could say, oh, that's, you know, 4 lighthouse swims left to
go sort of thing. And but as usually happens, it's
(27:16):
that that second-half of the swim is, is where a whole lot of
things happen. You know, a, you're getting
tired, you've got to, well, you know, the tides generally are
about to change. And so you've got to, you know,
try and be at a certain point ata certain time and you know,
(27:37):
it's, it's a lot, a lot that happens in that second part of
the swim. Yeah.
And are you still thinking aboutyour technique in a swim that
long or is it more a mental? I I think as, as, as hypothermia
comes on and stuff like that, I think, you know, just to be able
(27:57):
to get one arm over. Yeah, more on autopilot.
Yeah, more on autopilot by that stage.
I remember when I swam cook straight, I wasn't a bilateral
breather. I just sort of breathed to my
left side. And so as a result, my right
(28:17):
shoulder was having to do a lot of extra work to sort of, you
know, lift me out and, and it, as a result of, of that
workload, it had become very, very sore.
And of course, that cold, I remember swimming along and then
there were just these streams ofcold water which would come up
(28:38):
from the depths and oh, my word,that would hit your body.
And it was just, it was painful,you know?
I remember John Hancock was describing that in his episode.
Oh, true. Yeah.
He. Yeah, it's called an upwelling,
I think. And he yeah, it was good that he
was prepared for it because it was a lot colder than he
expected. Yes, yes.
(29:00):
And, and generally it's, it's colder on the South Island side,
you know, so you, yeah, start warmer and then you're, you're
going into the cold if you're doing north to South.
And yeah. Yeah, such thing.
You mentioned bilateral breathing, because I do tend to
do the same. I tend to breathe on my left.
(29:22):
I mean, I'm trying to, yeah. So was the cook straights from
your motivation to then improve your bilateral?
Absolutely. After that, I changed, you know,
I absolutely changed this. I I was not going to go through
that again. Right.
And then you change by doing sets in the pool where you would
breathe only one side, for example.
(29:42):
And so now, now you're a bilateral breather, Do you?
I'm a bilateral breather, yeah. You tend to breathe every three
strokes or. Right.
Every three, Yeah. Yeah, and you're trained to do
that simply by constant repetition.
Or was there a Yeah? Yep, Yep, Barb.
Barb has a good way of doing it.She'll say swim this length
(30:07):
breathing to the windows, and when you come back the other
way, still breathe those same windows.
So that gives the swimmer the opportunity to still maintain
their breathing every two strokes if that's what they
like. And and then, you know, coming
back the other way, you're stillbreathing every two, but you're
(30:29):
breathing to your off side. Yeah, and your body gets
familiar with. That's right, gets familiar with
it. And then eventually I actually
found it easier to bilateral breathe than to breathe to the
windows on my off side. And so I I chose the the less of
two evils. Well congratulations on your
(30:51):
Cook straight swim. That is phenomenal.
What was your distance in the end if you don't mind me asking?
On the day 28 kilometers. Wow.
Yeah. So, yeah, yeah.
And how do you recover from a swim like that in terms of
physically but also mentally? Because I imagine, yeah, it must
(31:13):
be a huge shift moving away fromall the training you did and all
the anticipation and the adrenaline to the aftermath.
Yeah, I went to work the next day.
Well. And the, the day.
So I went to work the next day and then the the next day after
(31:35):
that, one of my staff members said, you look a lot better
today. So I had no idea that I I didn't
look good. But yeah, there must have been
some sort of, you know. Recovery going on.
Hangover from it Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And there was there was no euphoria from having achieved
(31:58):
it. But, but I think it was just,
you know, you, the body just went into to the this big
recovery mode, you know, like myfriend, Mark it it, you know, I
spent the whole journey back from the South Island to, to
Mana Marine are on the floor just with, you know, 10 blankets
(32:23):
on me and, and just shivering deep, deep shivering, you know,
and I remember getting up just before the boat got in.
And this was 10:00 at night on aTuesday night and there were 30
(32:49):
people had come down to the Marina to welcome me.
In Oh, that's wonderful. It was incredible.
So Barbara had a session that night up at Cannons Creek Pool.
And so they were training. Barb had the tracker.
They would come into the war. How's he doing?
They'd get updates from Barb. And then they just transitioned
(33:12):
from their their training session.
Well, let's go down to the Marina.
And one of the guys who lives local went off and made lots of
thermoses of coffee and and theywere hanging around waiting for
me to get in and a whole lot of people from the Tea Tahibay Surf
(33:34):
Club came down as well to to welcome me in.
I just love that so much because, you know, a big part of
swimming is the community. Yes, the people.
Yes, Yeah, yeah, yeah, no. It's cool that everybody was
celebrating. Yeah, was was into it.
Yeah, it really surprised me. Oh.
It was so nice. So skipping ahead, you also swam
(33:58):
the Fogo Straight and I'm not missing any big swims, am I in
between 24? They're both big enough.
So that was just over a year ago, January 2024.
With your Fogo Straight swim, was that a swim you started
planning immediately after Cook Straight?
As in I've done this big swim, what's the next thing to do?
(34:19):
Or did it take time to come around to that idea?
You know, I remember how it cameabout.
I remember turning up to Oriental Bay for a Sunday
morning swim. And it was it, it was in, in
winter and, and it was dark and,and it was raining.
(34:42):
And I I sort of hopped out of the car and I looked at and I I
said to myself, what are you doing here?
You know, and I realized that that point, it was because I
didn't have a goal. I didn't have a goal.
That that was why, you know, allof a sudden felt uncomfortable
(35:07):
or I was doubting, you know, should I be here, you know?
And so a week or so later, oh, Iremember Caitlin O'Reilly had
had just swum Phobos straight and, and I think that planted
the seed in my head. And so when I bumped into Phil
(35:30):
one morning down at Freiburg andI said to him, do you think I'd
be capable of swimming cook straight?
And he turned around and he said, great, you're #3 on my
list. So you're in the queue.
That's it. And and, and and, you know, I
(35:50):
just had a question. Am I capable?
But he put me on the. List.
Suddenly you were there. It was happening so.
I I, I laughed, you know, I justlaughed and I went out for a
swim. But finally, you know, through
him, him presenting it to me in that way.
I, I was on another journey. I was locked in.
Yeah, I was locked in. And So what?
(36:11):
How much time passed between that point and your actual swim?
Like how much time did you have to train?
When he said it was four years in between swims, I think that,
you know, it might have only been six months after Cook
before, you know, this new goal was presented.
(36:34):
And but I wasn't in a hurry. COVID came along.
Oh, no, no, that was sorry. That was Cook.
So no, that was, that was the earliest swim.
So I had plenty of time. I wasn't in a hurry.
You know, I was pretty relaxed about it.
(36:59):
I think a season might have comeand gone and, and they were
there were no opportunities to and so we had to, you know, wait
another another year sort of thing.
Yeah, I've heard with FOVO that you have to wait for the
conditions to be just right and they take a year or two.
(37:20):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's it's just the same
as crook. You know, you can only go out
there on a good day and FOVO, there's even less opportunities.
Their, their season is probably only six weeks, you know, from
(37:41):
from, you know, the end of January, you know, through to
mid March, you know, maybe a little bit more so.
So yeah, it's just that much narrower.
And what were conditions like onthe day that you did your swim?
(38:01):
They were great. They were really good.
I enjoyed that swim more than cook straight.
You know, I cook straight is is amazing place.
The the water is so clear and pristine.
(38:22):
It is really pristine. It's beautiful, but FOVO was I'd
say not as clear, not as as pristine and that's just local
conditions, you know, on the day, but it was warmer.
(38:44):
It was 16° as you know, as opposed to that.
Well, I was not expecting you tosay it was warmer because it was
out, right. Yeah.
It was, it was, you know, 16 waswas not a problem.
It was great. And did you see any marine life
while you were swimming from her?
I saw no marine life. Wow.
(39:06):
Yeah, Nah, nothing, nothing, youknow, and, and there was always
talk about about the marine lifedown there.
In fact, the, the night before the, the group went out into
town for, for, for a meal together.
(39:29):
And we, we sat down in this restaurant and there's a local
man at the table next to us. And he, he sort of recognized
that we weren't locals. And he said, oh, what are you
locked down here for? And, and one of the groups, oh,
we're, we're down here to swim FOVO.
And immediately he launches intothe stories about the Sharks and
(39:53):
and and Phovo Straight. That's what you want to hear.
Phil was sitting rather close tohim and he said, you know, he
tried to turn him off as quite as quick as he could.
Hilarious. Did you have the sharks in your
mind when you were swimming? Were you quite good at
(40:13):
compartmentalizing? Yeah.
No, no, no, no, no, they they weren't, you know, probably
about 3/4 of the way across. I remembered, Oh yeah, that's
right. We're in shark territory.
And I sort of said, where are you?
Where are you? Show yourself, you know, as as a
(40:33):
bit of as AI don't know, but yeah, just just.
But Nah, Nah, nothing to see. And it's a very long time to be
swimming, and I know there are current shifts and so on, with
the final few hours of the swim particularly challenging in the
(40:55):
same way that Cook Straight was.Or because it was a slightly
warmer temperature, did it feel less of a challenge?
Not less of a challenge, but youknow what I mean.
Yeah, I have a, a bit of a technique of, of not looking at
how far away the finishes because it actually, it's, it's
(41:20):
very hard to judge. And I think that just plays on
your mind. And so I received some advice
from a from a cook straight swimmer and, and her advice was
don't look forward, don't look back.
And, and so I adopted that as my, my technique, if you like.
(41:43):
And so I was just sort of watching the crew on the IRB
and, and they were sort of indicating with their hands, you
know, the gap is getting smallerwith their hands, you know, and
I'm thinking in my head, what does that mean?
Is it, is it a kilometer? Is it?
And, and so I, I still resisted the temptation to, to look up
(42:08):
and, and I just waited and, and in both cases, cook and Fovo
Phil sort of stopped me and said, look over there.
Go and touch that rock, you know, and, and, and cook
straight. It was just 10 meters away.
So that was, that was really cool.
(42:30):
And Fovo would have been would have been the same.
Awesome. That's such a good idea to not
focus on where you've come from or where you're going and get
too fixated or distracted. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I, I really. Recommend it.
Yeah. I can imagine it would real
really play mind games with you.Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Trying to figure it out. And, and you know, you know,
(42:55):
once, once you get caught up in the tides and things like that,
you know, you might be 3 kilometers from the finish or 3K
from the land, but in fact, you know, the tide's going to do
this and that with you and, and you can easily double that
distance, you know. What do you like to eat and
drink while you're on a long swim?
I know everyone has different preferences.
(43:16):
Yeah, I, I tend to try and keep it simple and, and just go on
gels, gels and and electrolyte type drinks.
Yeah. And then just just some extra
little treats along the way to some sort of lollies, yeah.
(43:37):
Motivation. Yeah, Coca-Cola for the for the
last sort of hour or so. They're swimming across a a body
of water, a giant body of water.Some people talk about
conquering water when they swim across the Strait.
Is that how it feels to you? Donor, I think I have an
(44:00):
appreciation for the straight that I'm I'm crossing and I, I
recognize that I'm only going toachieve it if nature lets me,
you know. And so I, I, I, yeah, I don't, I
(44:25):
don't sort of think about that, that conquering it so much.
I don't sort of hold that up there as a, as a target, I
suppose, or as a yeah. Description.
Yeah. Does it come with a gratitude
then? It sounds like it does.
Say that again. Does it come with a feeling of
gratitude? Absolutely.
Yeah. Absolutely.
(44:46):
Yeah, yeah. And swimming through all the
seasons like you do, do you feelquite connected to nature?
I like I personally do. I feel like it's given me a real
appreciation for all the different weather conditions,
different light, different timesof the year.
Yeah, a lot more than previously.
(45:09):
Yeah, yeah, being, being out in nature, I, I guess a lot of
people get that from being in the Bush or, or walking in the
hills or, but yeah, for us it's,it's sort of out in the water
and, and, and, and watching the clouds and the, as you mentioned
before the sunrise and, and, andseeing all those changes.
(45:33):
Do you ever swim by yourself? Yes, Yeah, yeah, yeah, quite
often. Oh really?
Yeah, in the in the harbour? Or are there other parts of
Wellington you like to swim in? So, yeah, I mean sometimes
you'll you'll turn up for that regular Wednesday morning swim
(45:59):
and and my mate suddenly had to go to work early or whatever.
And so. So I'll be out there in the dark
by myself, which I don't mind. Do you quite enjoy swimming by
yourself or do you prefer? A company, yeah, Yeah, I do if
I'm by myself, you know, I, I tend to just keep moving.
(46:20):
Whereas if we go out in a group,we'll, we'll arrange to sort of
meet it at certain points along the way and, and sort of regroup
and then go again. So yeah, it's I, I enjoy, I
enjoy both swimming with others and and by myself.
(46:41):
Yeah, and both your marathon swims, I believe you completed
in your 50s. Is that right?
Yes. And so as someone who's
approaching 50, I'm curious to know, does swimming feel
different for you as you get older, like compared with 10
years ago, for example? Do you swim a different way or
(47:03):
think about it differently? I think the others who you use,
I think the others who who I swim with are getting faster or
maybe it's me slowing down. It's a matter of perspective.
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Yeah, You know, we do slow down.You know, I'm not as, as strong
(47:27):
as I used to be. But at the same time, you know,
I swim with people who are half my age and, and, and keep ahead
of them. So you know there must be some
technique in there which is is worth having.
Yeah. Yeah.
And do you have any particular swims that you're planning for
(47:51):
at the moment or like what's important to you right now when
you're swimming? Are you training or just
enjoying swims? Swimming like Taupo would would
give me the New Zealand Triple Crown.
And so I've got that in in the back of my head and I think that
(48:13):
keeps me turning up at the beachin the dark and in the cold.
That that sort of loose sort of idea.
I haven't booked it or committedto it.
And I think, you know, I had four years between Cook and Fovo
(48:35):
and, you know, maybe that same sort of distance in between, you
know, before I, I potentially did Taupo would be a good thing.
You know, I'm happy to sort of keep that loose goal alive for
for that long sort of thing. Yeah, yeah.
And that would be quite a different experience.
I imagine because it's fresh water they have less buoyancy,
(48:59):
but but then you don't have the current so much to deal with.
That's right. That would be quite a different
experience and it's 440 kilometers is that.
Yeah, yeah, it's a big long one.And I've seen some rough
conditions on that lake, you know, that that some swimmers
have had to deal with. But it looks.
Like you'd be right with that. I think so.
(49:20):
You'd be yes to it. I think so, from all those
Wellington mornings in the in the rough.
Exactly. Yeah.
And how so? You swim through winter, You
don't swim in a wetsuit anymore.How do you warm up after a fresh
swim? Yep.
So I, I take a thermos of hot drink and I, I try and get that
(49:46):
into me straight away. You know, I start drinking that
as I'm getting dressed. The ideal situation is, is not
to hop into a sparkle or, or sauna or steam room.
It's, it's just, you know, warm up slowly.
(50:08):
I find that during winter it cantake a good couple of hours
before I'm, I'm feeling, yeah, Ican feel my feet again.
That's how I normally do it. Just just got to do it slow.
And especially the colder it is,you know, the, the, the longer
(50:30):
it sort of takes to, to get thatfeeling back.
Yeah. Good advice, Yeah, you learn by
doing, isn't it? Yeah, really.
The swims usually become shorterin in in winter.
You, you. I sort of know some signs on my
(50:51):
body when I'm getting cold. I find that I I can no longer
hold my fingers together when I'm, you know, when I'm catching
the water out front and and suddenly my fingers are sort of
starting to open up. That's a bit of a sign for me
that not too much longer now andwe need to hop out.
(51:14):
Yeah, Yeah. That's good to have an
indicator. Isn't it another one that Bob
does as she says? If you can't remember your phone
number, it's time to hop out. That's right, yeah.
And sometimes I am thinking of my phone number.
Oh yeah, Yeah, you remember it. It's really cold and I and I
start worrying that I'm too coldand then I think, well, you
(51:34):
know, I can remember my phone number and.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's definitely something
important to be mindful of us, absolutely, especially if you're
a beginner. Absolutely.
Yeah, Yeah. Brett, I've really enjoyed our
conversation day of me too. I've been so much from you.
I know you're a a very experienced and wise swimmer,
(52:00):
but a lot of people come to you for advice on, you know,
endurance and cold water swimming and marathon swimming.
Is there anything else you'd like to share that I haven't
asked you about? Not really.
I, I sort of went on from from doing my cook straight swim to
(52:20):
doing a bit of navigating with, with Phil.
And so these days when he has a swimmer book to to go out and
cook straight, I'm often part ofthat team that helps get them
across. And so there's, you know, it
(52:45):
takes quite a team really to to put it all together.
And it's, it's so much fun to, you know, help others achieve
that same goal. Yeah.
That's such a great way to contribute.
Yeah. And such an important role to
play. And I imagine also a great, a
(53:08):
great way to learn more yourselfby watching other people.
Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
See how how they do it? Something I've learned that you
know, you don't always have to be swimming to learn about
swimming. Yeah, just just got to have your
ears open and listen to the conversation and, and, yeah,
and, and eyes open. Watch how other people do it,
(53:29):
yeah. Awesome, Brett.
Well, thank you so much for yourtime today.
Thank you, Shona. Thanks for listening to this
episode of Swim Chats. Please remember to follow or
subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss an episode.
And if you enjoyed it, you can leave a five star rating and
review which helps other people find it too.
(53:50):
Enjoy the water and we'll see you next time.
Welcome to the Swim Chats podcast.
I'm Shona Riddell, a writer, former journalist and ocean
swimmer from Wellington, Alteredo and New Zealand.
For each episode, I'll feature adifferent guest from our swim
community. There'll be dippers, adventure
swimmers, coaches and conservationists with one thing
in common. They all love being in the sea,
(00:24):
so whether you're a swimmer yourself or just interested in
stories about the ocean and people expanding their comfort
zones, I hope you enjoy these Swim Chats.
Please hit, follow or subscribe so you don't miss an episode.
Brett, welcome to Swim Chats. Thank you.
We are live. I was thinking we're sort of
like ships in the night because we're both in Bob Watson's
(00:47):
group. But you must swim earlier than I
do, so you're. Normally there at 8 are you?
Yes, that's right. I'm one of the Sunday 8:00 crew.
So I think you're well done and dusted with your swim by then,
is that right? Yeah, I'm, I'm usually in at 7.
7 And is that all year round? All year round.
(01:07):
Amazing. Yep.
And are you in any other swim groups as well?
I swim. No, it's all, it's all Bob
Watson. Actually we swim 9 I Saturday
morning 5:45 and then on Saturday and then of course
Sunday. Sea swims Tuesday, Thursday 5:30
(01:31):
at Cannons Creek in the morning and then Wednesday back at
Oriental Bay 6:00 AM. 6:00 AM. So in the dark.
Bright and early, yeah. So I'm keen to talk to you about
swimming in the dark because notmany, not many people do that.
Yeah. So at the moment, at the moment
it's definitely dark. We're coming into the shorter
(01:52):
days, just before winter I should say.
Temperatures about 14°. At the moment it's it's a wee
bit warmer. I I think it's still around 15
something. I don't think it's quite got
down to 14 yet, but it won't be long.
Yeah. Are you quite into the metrics?
Do you like to know the temperatures and the times and
(02:13):
all that sort of thing? Sometimes, probably more for
other people's swims rather thanmy own.
I, you know, sometimes not knowing is easier.
You just sort of turn up. Oh yeah, It's got a little bit
colder, yeah. And.
Just yeah, that's. So true, yeah.
(02:33):
Get on with it, you know? Yeah, don't worry about it too
much. Yeah, but do you swim early in
the morning really to fit it around the rest of your life, is
that or do you think you're a morning person?
I find. Yeah.
I find if I don't do it, then itthere's a chance that it won't
happen. And so I think it is a making it
(02:57):
a priority and and you're saying, well, yeah, squeeze it
in, put it in first and then andthen the rest of life sort of
falls in around that. So swimming in the dark, you
have lights that you carry, is that right?
Yeah. So we, yeah, generally put a
light on on my Google strap at the back and, and, and yeah,
(03:22):
that just lets everybody see you, you know, you connect with
other swimmers and any other water users that happen to be
out there. Which to be honest, at this time
of the year, there's not a lot. There's the odd sort of Walker
armor crew that will go out thatthat's about it.
(03:44):
And how far do you like to go? We sort of do probably again
this time of the year, you'll get out to the lighthouse once a
month sort of thing that that, yeah, it just gets start
(04:05):
starting to get shorter and, youknow, and, and keep it in close
just to, you know, for safety reasons really for, you know,
hypothermia and stuff like that.Yeah.
And so for people who don't swimout to the lighthouse, so that's
about a a 2 1/2 K return trip. So it's not a not a short swim
(04:30):
for most people. And yeah.
And what does it, what does it feel like?
I suppose because the the time you're swimming, do you get to
see the sun rises? Yeah, yeah, you do.
Although, although we're, we're just about at the point where
it's, it's dark when you hop in and dark when you hop out, you
(04:50):
know, but, but certainly, you know, as the season changes,
it's, it's just such a, a beautiful place to be at that
time of today, You know, to hop in when it's dark and then, as
you say, to, to see the sky starting to get blue and then,
you know, finally light sort of appears.
(05:11):
It's, it's pretty surreal. It's pretty cool.
Yeah. And are you swimming in the
dark? Are you sort of mindful of being
in the ocean at that time in terms of marine life?
Like is that something you're conscious of when you're
swimming? Or are you, have you been doing
it long enough that you you, you're not faced?
No, look, I'm I'm not faced. I, I think, I think I dealt with
(05:36):
with that fear long time ago. And did you deal with the fear
simply by continuing to get in the water or was there?
Absolutely. Just just just by ignoring it
really, I mean, knowing the odds, you know, the odds are are
so slim. I think there was one shark
(05:59):
attack and death recorded in Wellington way back, you know,
100 years ago out at Wellington Heads.
So, you know, the numbers are, are stacked in my favour.
So yeah, I don't don't really worry about it.
(06:20):
Yeah. And have you always been a sea
swimmer or is this something youtook up as an adult?
As an adult, for me, yeah. How?
How recently? Probably about probably about 14
years ago for me, yeah. Just just really wanted a group
(06:48):
that that was into, you know, sea swimming and, and that's
where Bob's group, you know, they they did both pool and, and
sea and, and yeah, just just allowed me to sort of feel
confident with other swimmers around to start with.
(07:09):
And but plus, you know, there's there is a place for the pool,
you know, you still need to do your technique type work and and
stuff to. Yeah.
Yeah, to get better. Bob's group is very welcoming
and inclusive, isn't it? Like, isn't it?
It's for all levels which. Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely. It's so much fun.
(07:30):
And So what was the motivation for getting in in the 1st place?
Did you know other people who were doing it or you just were
you training for something? I, I, I think what happened for
me is just just just had this desire to, you know, feel more
(07:52):
comfortable in the open water. And so, so that was sort of
always in the back of my mind. And, and then, yeah, just that
that group atmosphere just makesit so much easier to to take
part, Yeah, to get in and. Yeah, that's awesome.
(08:14):
And so when you're doing your sea swims, are you also focusing
on technique? I do.
Yeah, I do. I think about it a lot.
In fact, you know, people have asked, they say, well, what do
you think about when you're out there for 13 hours?
You know, and, and I see I, I just think about technique.
I, I sort of think about what I'm, I'm doing and and and and
(08:36):
try and keep it tight as it were, yeah.
They're keeping it tight as in keeping not not sort of flailing
your arms about and legs and. That's right, I.
Think. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
definitely. You know, as you get tired,
(08:57):
your, your arms start to go round instead of over.
You know, you get perhaps a bit too relaxed in your core.
Whereas if you, you know, concentrate on keeping that a
wee bit tighter, that sort of gives you better, better
technique. And in Wellington and Oriental
(09:20):
Bay, we get that prevalent northerly wind.
We do. Oh, there's plenty of chop.
So are you pretty comfortable swimming in the chop that like,
does the chop deter you? Do you enjoy it?
I love the calm days, but I guess being, you know, in windy
(09:41):
Wellington, sort of few and far between.
So yeah, I, I enjoy sort of getting out into the chop as
well. It often means you won't go as
far, you know, distance wise, you may choose to not go as far
because it's, you know, wee bit more physically challenging.
(10:06):
But yeah, I, I, I enjoy, enjoy the roughness of it too.
We've had some really rough days.
I remember spending 3/4 of an hour sitting in the car just
watching it, trying to decide are we going to go?
And then finally going, you know, and we got out there and,
(10:28):
and just two of us and we got separated and just sort of
dealing with the conditions. Never ever felt unsafe, you
know, but but you, you know, youjust sort of go with it.
You sort of adapt and then and then come back in.
(10:49):
Yeah, it's an audio podcast, butI'll just say you've got the
biggest smile on your face rightnow.
So you clearly enjoy the CHOP until some people, some people
find it really invigorating and other people find it less so.
But yeah, I'm always interested to talk to people about swimming
in the chop because it's something that I'm always
personally working on. OK, Yeah.
(11:10):
So if you have any tips for how how you swim through the chart
I'd be really interested. Well, just you've just got to,
you know, first thing is stay relaxed, you know, don't, don't
tense up. I know it's, you know, it seems
a hostile environment, but but let's just relax into it.
(11:34):
I feel that the the conditions dictate when you're going to
breathe. There'd be be times when you go
to breathe and you feel, ah, no.I can't.
There's a wave there, you know, and so you just sort of hold on
a little bit longer. If you can bilateral breathe in,
then that's a big advantage to, you know, to be able to face
(11:57):
away from the weather. Yeah.
Awesome. And would you swim in the heavy
rain as well? I'm just conscious of that
because we've got particularly heavy rain right now.
Right now. Are there any?
Are there any conditions you don't swim in?
I guess is my question. Very rare that I wouldn't go.
You know, we had two days of heavy rain last week and I think
(12:26):
it was late in the week and Bob was sort of looking at, oh, do I
cancel or not? And at one stage she said, yeah,
no, I think we have the day off and, and we sort of got talking
about it, a group of us and, andchecked in with John Cleveland.
He, he seems to be the expert onthe water quality.
(12:47):
He, he, he said, no, no, it'll be fine.
So we, we went in on Sunday and you notice the difference in
the, in the layers of water. You know, when there's, there's
fresh water on the top, often it's a wee bit cooler.
(13:08):
But yeah, there's not. I I can't think of many times
that we won't go, you know, it'sjust just something that we do.
Awesome. Well, let's talk about your
marathon swims now. So in 2020, I know you swam
across the cook straight. That's.
Right. And I found an old article on
(13:31):
Stuff and the headline of the article was great.
It says after 10 hours, Brett Richardson emerges from Cook
Straight, hypothermic and victorious, which aren't often 2
words that you you hear together.
What to hear that true? Pretty true.
So hypothermic, I mean, I know that that is relatively common
(13:52):
for people swimming across the cook straight and that you're
swimming in skins and you're getting progressively older I
imagine. That's right.
At the beginning. So how?
How did you come to be swimming across the Cook Straight in the
first place? What was the inspiration behind
it? I'd always sort of held it cook
(14:14):
straight up there as, as the ultimate local swim.
And I just, I remember I was 8 years old and I, I, I remember
Meeta McKenzie swimming cook straight and, and back in those
(14:34):
days, it hit the national headlines.
You know, it was, was big story on the news.
And I, I wasn't really a, a swimmer at that stage, but I
remember, you know, having, having it explained to me.
Oh, she swam from here to there,you know, and, and I just
(14:57):
couldn't fathom it in my mind, but I guess you know it, it must
have sort of sunk in there as a,as a, as a bit of an idea, you
know, way back then. And how old was she?
She was like 15 or. Something She was 15.
Yeah, she was 15 when she did it.
(15:19):
Incredible. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so I guess, you know, that that was perhaps the seed way,
way back then. And it, it didn't surface again
until probably, you know, aroundthat time that I started
swimming with, with Barb, which was I think it was 2012.
(15:43):
And yeah, I never really, I didn't think it was a
possibility. I wasn't working towards it.
But, but in the back of my mind,it was always like, wow, that
would be the ultimate, you know,and then I just started swimming
and, and getting around, you know, this the New Zealand swim
(16:03):
series, the different swims around the country and then then
started to to increase the distance.
Did the epic swim in Taupo, the 10K wet suit for the the first
(16:24):
time, non wet suit the next year.
And then after that just sort ofkept pushing out.
I found an event in Hong Kong which was 15 kilometers, thought
well, let's let's get that distance ago.
(16:46):
And yeah, just just built from there, really.
So with each distance that you were increasing by, did it feel
like a big step each time or didit just feel like something that
happened organically each year? No, it, it did feel like a big
step, you know, I, I think mentally definitely, you know,
(17:08):
you've got to get your, your head around it and.
And how did, how did you do that?
Did you, did you have any sort of techniques or process that
you went through before each one?
Yeah, with, with Hong Kong, I, Ihad the, the, the course all
mapped out and I, I, I knew thatit was off the beach and it was,
(17:33):
you know, 1 1/2 kilometers to the first turn boy.
And then it was 4 kilometers outof the Bay to the next corner.
And, and, and in my head, I, I'dsort of memorized each leg so
that at any point in time when Igot to that point, I knew, you
(17:54):
know, what I had left to go. And, and I think it's, it was
quite handy to sort of break it down into manageable bites.
So instead of focusing on 15, you're focusing on all right,
there's the 1st 1500 meters downand then there's the next 40.
(18:15):
We've done 5/5 and 1/2 K now that you know, you just sort of
had little, little markers and, and just sort of broke it down.
That is such a great idea. Yeah.
I can imagine mentally that would make it feel a lot less
overwhelming. Yeah.
Taking it 1 chunk at a time, yes.
And then you're done. Yes, yes.
(18:38):
Yeah. And so with the with the cook
straight, who trained you for that?
Was it Bub? Was it Phil Rush as well?
His name comes up quite a bit inpodcast.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so I, I did my crossing with
Phil. And what sort of happened is I,
I sort of had this interest in it and I didn't, I hadn't talked
(19:01):
to anybody who'd ever done it. And, and one day I, I heard of a
guy who was planning to do it. And I just heard his name and,
and I heard that he trained at Fryeburg Pool.
And so I basically stalked him. I basically turned up at that
(19:25):
same training session and, and joined that squad.
And it happened to be Phil Rush's squad.
And so, so I, I joined in at theback of, of, of one of the lanes
there and Mark Cronin was the guy's name and he lead, lead
(19:45):
that lane and he's big, strapping, strong man.
And eventually I got to introduce myself to him and, and
just really started to, to, to do some training with him.
When you go, when you decide to go long, you know, there's not
(20:06):
so many people to, to train with.
And so I think he enjoyed, you know, having.
Having me available I I guess, and, and so I just started
following him around. The only way I could keep up
(20:27):
with him was, was if I drafted off him.
He was so quick out in the sea and, and things.
And, and so we spent quite a bitof time together, you know,
training and, and stuff. And then so it was really, you
know, it's really interesting for me being able to talk to
somebody who who, you know, had done a lot more than than what I
(20:52):
had done. And we built up such a good
friendship that when, when it came time for him to do his cook
straight swim, he asked me if I'd like to go with him and be a
support person. And so that was just a dream,
you know, to, to actually get out there on, on the big boat as
(21:16):
he's swimming and, and just takeit all in, you know, see, see
what you have to go through to, to be able to achieve it.
I imagine that would make such abig difference.
Oh, I just. Kept the picture in your mind an
absolutely. Distance and.
Everything that might come up, yeah.
And so that was 2016 and his swim was, was quite tricky as in
(21:50):
the tides and, and I think it was thought that he would do
about 8 hours, which is a reallygood time.
But on the day it was 12 1/2 hours.
So, you know, just such a big, big effort.
(22:12):
Mark finished in the dark and itwas absolutely pitch black.
We, we were on the big boat. We couldn't see him finish, but
we were just listening to the radio and, and getting updates
from the radio and then finally finished, he was brought back to
(22:32):
the boat and, and Mark had hypothermia as well.
And you know, again, it was quite brutal seeing him in the
state and, and just watching that, that recovery.
(22:53):
Did that deter you at all? I didn't, I didn't race.
I didn't race out and put my name there.
I didn't say yes, I want to do this.
So I, I spent, you know, quite abit more time, you know, just
sort of processing and thinking about it and things didn't swap,
didn't stop swimming, kept swimming.
(23:17):
And then there was another lady,Pip Ren, who decided to do it.
And same thing happened. I I started swimming with Pip
and exactly the same thing. Actually she asked me to go as a
support person, so I got to comethe other way for her swim.
(23:40):
She went S to North. And was that based on the the
currents of the day? Yeah, it's, it's based on what
the weather is going to do in the afternoon.
Yeah. So, you know, generally the
weather sort of might get up in the afternoon.
(24:01):
And if it's going to be more favorable to to go one way than
the other, then then that's whatthey decide.
Yeah. Which direction did you swim?
I swam north to South, right? Yeah.
I was reading I read in the staff article about your swim
that you were training 8 * a week for up to five hours at a
(24:24):
time in the pool. Yep.
So up to five hours. What would a typical session be
like? Were you?
Was it based on time or distanceor both?
So what I would do is, yeah, yeah, I, I would sort of have
one endurance set a week. And because we went so early, we
(24:52):
went, I think it was the 14th ofNovember.
So we went very early in the in the season or might have been
the 20th, I can't remember now. What was the water temperature?
It was 14 when I hopped in and it dropped to about 12 when I
hopped. Fresh.
(25:13):
So it was, it was pretty cool, but because it was so early, it
meant that I couldn't do a wholelot of endurance in the sea.
And so, so I sort of did my endurance sets in the pool and I
had a little regime of increasing my time by half an
(25:37):
hour each week. And for that endurance set.
And so, you know, two, 2 1/2, three, 3 1/2 up to, you know,
five hours basically. And at the end of each session,
I would just sit in the pool fora little bit longer and, and
(26:02):
just look at the other end and say to myself, could you do
another extra half hour if you had to?
And I'd say, Yep. And, and, and that was just a,
you know, little visualization sort of exercise that I'd, I'd,
I'd do at the same time. Cool, and with your cook
straight swim, did you map it out the same way you mapped out
(26:23):
your earlier swims? No, there's not the reference
points. And so I was.
Wondering A to B what what endedup happening is I didn't get any
feedback about how I was going until until I had 10 kilometers
(26:50):
to go. And that was a distance that I
knew and, and could sort of process in my mind.
I could say, oh, that's, you know, 4 lighthouse swims left to
go sort of thing. And but as usually happens, it's
(27:16):
that that second-half of the swim is, is where a whole lot of
things happen. You know, a, you're getting
tired, you've got to, well, you know, the tides generally are
about to change. And so you've got to, you know,
try and be at a certain point ata certain time and you know,
(27:37):
it's, it's a lot, a lot that happens in that second part of
the swim. Yeah.
And are you still thinking aboutyour technique in a swim that
long or is it more a mental? I I think as, as, as hypothermia
comes on and stuff like that, I think, you know, just to be able
(27:57):
to get one arm over. Yeah, more on autopilot.
Yeah, more on autopilot by that stage.
I remember when I swam cook straight, I wasn't a bilateral
breather. I just sort of breathed to my
left side. And so as a result, my right
(28:17):
shoulder was having to do a lot of extra work to sort of, you
know, lift me out and, and it, as a result of, of that
workload, it had become very, very sore.
And of course, that cold, I remember swimming along and then
there were just these streams ofcold water which would come up
(28:38):
from the depths and oh, my word,that would hit your body.
And it was just, it was painful,you know?
I remember John Hancock was describing that in his episode.
Oh, true. Yeah.
He. Yeah, it's called an upwelling,
I think. And he yeah, it was good that he
was prepared for it because it was a lot colder than he
expected. Yes, yes.
(29:00):
And, and generally it's, it's colder on the South Island side,
you know, so you, yeah, start warmer and then you're, you're
going into the cold if you're doing north to South.
And yeah. Yeah, such thing.
You mentioned bilateral breathing, because I do tend to
do the same. I tend to breathe on my left.
(29:22):
I mean, I'm trying to, yeah. So was the cook straights from
your motivation to then improve your bilateral?
Absolutely. After that, I changed, you know,
I absolutely changed this. I I was not going to go through
that again. Right.
And then you change by doing sets in the pool where you would
breathe only one side, for example.
(29:42):
And so now, now you're a bilateral breather, Do you?
I'm a bilateral breather, yeah. You tend to breathe every three
strokes or. Right.
Every three, Yeah. Yeah, and you're trained to do
that simply by constant repetition.
Or was there a Yeah? Yep, Yep, Barb.
Barb has a good way of doing it.She'll say swim this length
(30:07):
breathing to the windows, and when you come back the other
way, still breathe those same windows.
So that gives the swimmer the opportunity to still maintain
their breathing every two strokes if that's what they
like. And and then, you know, coming
back the other way, you're stillbreathing every two, but you're
(30:29):
breathing to your off side. Yeah, and your body gets
familiar with. That's right, gets familiar with
it. And then eventually I actually
found it easier to bilateral breathe than to breathe to the
windows on my off side. And so I I chose the the less of
two evils. Well congratulations on your
(30:51):
Cook straight swim. That is phenomenal.
What was your distance in the end if you don't mind me asking?
On the day 28 kilometers. Wow.
Yeah. So, yeah, yeah.
And how do you recover from a swim like that in terms of
physically but also mentally? Because I imagine, yeah, it must
(31:13):
be a huge shift moving away fromall the training you did and all
the anticipation and the adrenaline to the aftermath.
Yeah, I went to work the next day.
Well. And the, the day.
So I went to work the next day and then the the next day after
(31:35):
that, one of my staff members said, you look a lot better
today. So I had no idea that I I didn't
look good. But yeah, there must have been
some sort of, you know. Recovery going on.
Hangover from it Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And there was there was no euphoria from having achieved
(31:58):
it. But, but I think it was just,
you know, you, the body just went into to the this big
recovery mode, you know, like myfriend, Mark it it, you know, I
spent the whole journey back from the South Island to, to
Mana Marine are on the floor just with, you know, 10 blankets
(32:23):
on me and, and just shivering deep, deep shivering, you know,
and I remember getting up just before the boat got in.
And this was 10:00 at night on aTuesday night and there were 30
(32:49):
people had come down to the Marina to welcome me.
In Oh, that's wonderful. It was incredible.
So Barbara had a session that night up at Cannons Creek Pool.
And so they were training. Barb had the tracker.
They would come into the war. How's he doing?
They'd get updates from Barb. And then they just transitioned
(33:12):
from their their training session.
Well, let's go down to the Marina.
And one of the guys who lives local went off and made lots of
thermoses of coffee and and theywere hanging around waiting for
me to get in and a whole lot of people from the Tea Tahibay Surf
(33:34):
Club came down as well to to welcome me in.
I just love that so much because, you know, a big part of
swimming is the community. Yes, the people.
Yes, Yeah, yeah, yeah, no. It's cool that everybody was
celebrating. Yeah, was was into it.
Yeah, it really surprised me. Oh.
It was so nice. So skipping ahead, you also swam
(33:58):
the Fogo Straight and I'm not missing any big swims, am I in
between 24? They're both big enough.
So that was just over a year ago, January 2024.
With your Fogo Straight swim, was that a swim you started
planning immediately after Cook Straight?
As in I've done this big swim, what's the next thing to do?
(34:19):
Or did it take time to come around to that idea?
You know, I remember how it cameabout.
I remember turning up to Oriental Bay for a Sunday
morning swim. And it was it, it was in, in
winter and, and it was dark and,and it was raining.
(34:42):
And I I sort of hopped out of the car and I looked at and I I
said to myself, what are you doing here?
You know, and I realized that that point, it was because I
didn't have a goal. I didn't have a goal.
That that was why, you know, allof a sudden felt uncomfortable
(35:07):
or I was doubting, you know, should I be here, you know?
And so a week or so later, oh, Iremember Caitlin O'Reilly had
had just swum Phobos straight and, and I think that planted
the seed in my head. And so when I bumped into Phil
(35:30):
one morning down at Freiburg andI said to him, do you think I'd
be capable of swimming cook straight?
And he turned around and he said, great, you're #3 on my
list. So you're in the queue.
That's it. And and, and and, you know, I
(35:50):
just had a question. Am I capable?
But he put me on the. List.
Suddenly you were there. It was happening so.
I I, I laughed, you know, I justlaughed and I went out for a
swim. But finally, you know, through
him, him presenting it to me in that way.
I, I was on another journey. I was locked in.
Yeah, I was locked in. And So what?
(36:11):
How much time passed between that point and your actual swim?
Like how much time did you have to train?
When he said it was four years in between swims, I think that,
you know, it might have only been six months after Cook
before, you know, this new goal was presented.
(36:34):
And but I wasn't in a hurry. COVID came along.
Oh, no, no, that was sorry. That was Cook.
So no, that was, that was the earliest swim.
So I had plenty of time. I wasn't in a hurry.
You know, I was pretty relaxed about it.
(36:59):
I think a season might have comeand gone and, and they were
there were no opportunities to and so we had to, you know, wait
another another year sort of thing.
Yeah, I've heard with FOVO that you have to wait for the
conditions to be just right and they take a year or two.
(37:20):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's it's just the same
as crook. You know, you can only go out
there on a good day and FOVO, there's even less opportunities.
Their, their season is probably only six weeks, you know, from
(37:41):
from, you know, the end of January, you know, through to
mid March, you know, maybe a little bit more so.
So yeah, it's just that much narrower.
And what were conditions like onthe day that you did your swim?
(38:01):
They were great. They were really good.
I enjoyed that swim more than cook straight.
You know, I cook straight is is amazing place.
The the water is so clear and pristine.
(38:22):
It is really pristine. It's beautiful, but FOVO was I'd
say not as clear, not as as pristine and that's just local
conditions, you know, on the day, but it was warmer.
(38:44):
It was 16° as you know, as opposed to that.
Well, I was not expecting you tosay it was warmer because it was
out, right. Yeah.
It was, it was, you know, 16 waswas not a problem.
It was great. And did you see any marine life
while you were swimming from her?
I saw no marine life. Wow.
(39:06):
Yeah, Nah, nothing, nothing, youknow, and, and there was always
talk about about the marine lifedown there.
In fact, the, the night before the, the group went out into
town for, for, for a meal together.
(39:29):
And we, we sat down in this restaurant and there's a local
man at the table next to us. And he, he sort of recognized
that we weren't locals. And he said, oh, what are you
locked down here for? And, and one of the groups, oh,
we're, we're down here to swim FOVO.
And immediately he launches intothe stories about the Sharks and
(39:53):
and and Phovo Straight. That's what you want to hear.
Phil was sitting rather close tohim and he said, you know, he
tried to turn him off as quite as quick as he could.
Hilarious. Did you have the sharks in your
mind when you were swimming? Were you quite good at
(40:13):
compartmentalizing? Yeah.
No, no, no, no, no, they they weren't, you know, probably
about 3/4 of the way across. I remembered, Oh yeah, that's
right. We're in shark territory.
And I sort of said, where are you?
Where are you? Show yourself, you know, as as a
(40:33):
bit of as AI don't know, but yeah, just just.
But Nah, Nah, nothing to see. And it's a very long time to be
swimming, and I know there are current shifts and so on, with
the final few hours of the swim particularly challenging in the
(40:55):
same way that Cook Straight was.Or because it was a slightly
warmer temperature, did it feel less of a challenge?
Not less of a challenge, but youknow what I mean.
Yeah, I have a, a bit of a technique of, of not looking at
how far away the finishes because it actually, it's, it's
(41:20):
very hard to judge. And I think that just plays on
your mind. And so I received some advice
from a from a cook straight swimmer and, and her advice was
don't look forward, don't look back.
And, and so I adopted that as my, my technique, if you like.
(41:43):
And so I was just sort of watching the crew on the IRB
and, and they were sort of indicating with their hands, you
know, the gap is getting smallerwith their hands, you know, and
I'm thinking in my head, what does that mean?
Is it, is it a kilometer? Is it?
And, and so I, I still resisted the temptation to, to look up
(42:08):
and, and I just waited and, and in both cases, cook and Fovo
Phil sort of stopped me and said, look over there.
Go and touch that rock, you know, and, and, and cook
straight. It was just 10 meters away.
So that was, that was really cool.
(42:30):
And Fovo would have been would have been the same.
Awesome. That's such a good idea to not
focus on where you've come from or where you're going and get
too fixated or distracted. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I, I really. Recommend it.
Yeah. I can imagine it would real
really play mind games with you.Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Trying to figure it out. And, and you know, you know,
(42:55):
once, once you get caught up in the tides and things like that,
you know, you might be 3 kilometers from the finish or 3K
from the land, but in fact, you know, the tide's going to do
this and that with you and, and you can easily double that
distance, you know. What do you like to eat and
drink while you're on a long swim?
I know everyone has different preferences.
(43:16):
Yeah, I, I tend to try and keep it simple and, and just go on
gels, gels and and electrolyte type drinks.
Yeah. And then just just some extra
little treats along the way to some sort of lollies, yeah.
(43:37):
Motivation. Yeah, Coca-Cola for the for the
last sort of hour or so. They're swimming across a a body
of water, a giant body of water.Some people talk about
conquering water when they swim across the Strait.
Is that how it feels to you? Donor, I think I have an
(44:00):
appreciation for the straight that I'm I'm crossing and I, I
recognize that I'm only going toachieve it if nature lets me,
you know. And so I, I, I, yeah, I don't, I
(44:25):
don't sort of think about that, that conquering it so much.
I don't sort of hold that up there as a, as a target, I
suppose, or as a yeah. Description.
Yeah. Does it come with a gratitude
then? It sounds like it does.
Say that again. Does it come with a feeling of
gratitude? Absolutely.
Yeah. Absolutely.
(44:46):
Yeah, yeah. And swimming through all the
seasons like you do, do you feelquite connected to nature?
I like I personally do. I feel like it's given me a real
appreciation for all the different weather conditions,
different light, different timesof the year.
Yeah, a lot more than previously.
(45:09):
Yeah, yeah, being, being out in nature, I, I guess a lot of
people get that from being in the Bush or, or walking in the
hills or, but yeah, for us it's,it's sort of out in the water
and, and, and, and watching the clouds and the, as you mentioned
before the sunrise and, and, andseeing all those changes.
(45:33):
Do you ever swim by yourself? Yes, Yeah, yeah, yeah, quite
often. Oh really?
Yeah, in the in the harbour? Or are there other parts of
Wellington you like to swim in? So, yeah, I mean sometimes
you'll you'll turn up for that regular Wednesday morning swim
(45:59):
and and my mate suddenly had to go to work early or whatever.
And so. So I'll be out there in the dark
by myself, which I don't mind. Do you quite enjoy swimming by
yourself or do you prefer? A company, yeah, Yeah, I do if
I'm by myself, you know, I, I tend to just keep moving.
(46:20):
Whereas if we go out in a group,we'll, we'll arrange to sort of
meet it at certain points along the way and, and sort of regroup
and then go again. So yeah, it's I, I enjoy, I
enjoy both swimming with others and and by myself.
(46:41):
Yeah, and both your marathon swims, I believe you completed
in your 50s. Is that right?
Yes. And so as someone who's
approaching 50, I'm curious to know, does swimming feel
different for you as you get older, like compared with 10
years ago, for example? Do you swim a different way or
(47:03):
think about it differently? I think the others who you use,
I think the others who who I swim with are getting faster or
maybe it's me slowing down. It's a matter of perspective.
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Yeah, You know, we do slow down.You know, I'm not as, as strong
(47:27):
as I used to be. But at the same time, you know,
I swim with people who are half my age and, and, and keep ahead
of them. So you know there must be some
technique in there which is is worth having.
Yeah. Yeah.
And do you have any particular swims that you're planning for
(47:51):
at the moment or like what's important to you right now when
you're swimming? Are you training or just
enjoying swims? Swimming like Taupo would would
give me the New Zealand Triple Crown.
And so I've got that in in the back of my head and I think that
(48:13):
keeps me turning up at the beachin the dark and in the cold.
That that sort of loose sort of idea.
I haven't booked it or committedto it.
And I think, you know, I had four years between Cook and Fovo
(48:35):
and, you know, maybe that same sort of distance in between, you
know, before I, I potentially did Taupo would be a good thing.
You know, I'm happy to sort of keep that loose goal alive for
for that long sort of thing. Yeah, yeah.
And that would be quite a different experience.
I imagine because it's fresh water they have less buoyancy,
(48:59):
but but then you don't have the current so much to deal with.
That's right. That would be quite a different
experience and it's 440 kilometers is that.
Yeah, yeah, it's a big long one.And I've seen some rough
conditions on that lake, you know, that that some swimmers
have had to deal with. But it looks.
Like you'd be right with that. I think so.
(49:20):
You'd be yes to it. I think so, from all those
Wellington mornings in the in the rough.
Exactly. Yeah.
And how so? You swim through winter, You
don't swim in a wetsuit anymore.How do you warm up after a fresh
swim? Yep.
So I, I take a thermos of hot drink and I, I try and get that
(49:46):
into me straight away. You know, I start drinking that
as I'm getting dressed. The ideal situation is, is not
to hop into a sparkle or, or sauna or steam room.
It's, it's just, you know, warm up slowly.
(50:08):
I find that during winter it cantake a good couple of hours
before I'm, I'm feeling, yeah, Ican feel my feet again.
That's how I normally do it. Just just got to do it slow.
And especially the colder it is,you know, the, the, the longer
(50:30):
it sort of takes to, to get thatfeeling back.
Yeah. Good advice, Yeah, you learn by
doing, isn't it? Yeah, really.
The swims usually become shorterin in in winter.
You, you. I sort of know some signs on my
(50:51):
body when I'm getting cold. I find that I I can no longer
hold my fingers together when I'm, you know, when I'm catching
the water out front and and suddenly my fingers are sort of
starting to open up. That's a bit of a sign for me
that not too much longer now andwe need to hop out.
(51:14):
Yeah, Yeah. That's good to have an
indicator. Isn't it another one that Bob
does as she says? If you can't remember your phone
number, it's time to hop out. That's right, yeah.
And sometimes I am thinking of my phone number.
Oh yeah, Yeah, you remember it. It's really cold and I and I
start worrying that I'm too coldand then I think, well, you
(51:34):
know, I can remember my phone number and.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's definitely something
important to be mindful of us, absolutely, especially if you're
a beginner. Absolutely.
Yeah, Yeah. Brett, I've really enjoyed our
conversation day of me too. I've been so much from you.
I know you're a a very experienced and wise swimmer,
(52:00):
but a lot of people come to you for advice on, you know,
endurance and cold water swimming and marathon swimming.
Is there anything else you'd like to share that I haven't
asked you about? Not really.
I, I sort of went on from from doing my cook straight swim to
(52:20):
doing a bit of navigating with, with Phil.
And so these days when he has a swimmer book to to go out and
cook straight, I'm often part ofthat team that helps get them
across. And so there's, you know, it
(52:45):
takes quite a team really to to put it all together.
And it's, it's so much fun to, you know, help others achieve
that same goal. Yeah.
That's such a great way to contribute.
Yeah. And such an important role to
play. And I imagine also a great, a
(53:08):
great way to learn more yourselfby watching other people.
Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
See how how they do it? Something I've learned that you
know, you don't always have to be swimming to learn about
swimming. Yeah, just just got to have your
ears open and listen to the conversation and, and, yeah,
and, and eyes open. Watch how other people do it,
(53:29):
yeah. Awesome, Brett.
Well, thank you so much for yourtime today.
Thank you, Shona. Thanks for listening to this
episode of Swim Chats. Please remember to follow or
subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss an episode.
And if you enjoyed it, you can leave a five star rating and
review which helps other people find it too.
(53:50):
Enjoy the water and we'll see you next time.
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