July 2, 2025 • 33 mins
In this powerful episode of T Time: Spiritual Conversations For, With and About Women, host Twanna Henderson sits down with Brandi Ann Williams, Director of the African American Church Evangelism Institute (AACEI) at Wheaton College. Together, they unpack why so many churches struggle with evangelism and how pastors can move from outdated methods to cultivating vibrant, conversion-centered communities. Brandi shares practical tools, cultural insight, and transformational stories that offer hope, strategy, and encouragement to leaders eager to make evangelism part of their church’s DNA. Whether you're a pastor, ministry leader, or everyday believer, this episode reminds us all: evangelism is for everyone — and the work begins with us.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Twanna Henderson (00:09):
Well, welcome to T Time
for With and About Women.
I'm your host, Twanna Henderson, andit's always, I want to remind you to,
like this broadcast and definitelyshare it with someone else in your life.
Well, as you know, we have beencontinuing in our focus this year on
the topic of evangelism, and todaywe have the evangelism princess.
(00:32):
I'm gonna call her.
Our guest is Brandi Ann Williams.
Brandi, Williams is the directorof the African American Church
Evangelism Institute, also knownas A-A-C-E-I at Wheaton College
where she leads initiatives tohelp pastors cultivate thriving
conversion centered congregations.
(00:53):
Brandi obtained her master's degreein theological studies from Trinity
Evangelical Divinity School and is nowobtaining her PhD in organizational
leadership at Eastern University.
Brandi has a deep passion forequipping leaders, and she serves
as a bridge between generations.
Working to connect senior pastorswith younger leaders to ensure that
(01:16):
the future of the church remainsvibrant and mission focused.
She is a member of the Gen Z researchteam at Wheaton's Graham Center and
is passionate about helping ministriesnavigate cultural shifts and rethink
evangelism for emerging generations.
Her commitment to relational evangelismand innovative leadership development
(01:38):
makes her a sought after voicein conversations about the future
of the church, and in particularthe black church, an effective
discipleship in an ever changing world.
Brandi, welcome back to T Time.
Brandi Williams (01:50):
Thank you.
Twanna Henderson (01:51):
So it's good to see
you.
Have you been?
Brandi Williams (01:55):
Oh man, all is well.
I'm almost at the end of the PhD journey.
Twanna Henderson (01:59):
Wow.
Brandi Williams (02:00):
So next time I come back,
Twanna Henderson (02:02):
Woohoo!
You'll be Dr.
Brandi.
Well, you have definitelybeen busier than ever.
I do not envy that at all, but I'mexcited to have you back today as
we have been, this year has beendedicated to evangelism and the goal of
(02:23):
President Jenkins, who is the presidentof Converge, has been to build and
to rebuild a culture of evangelism.
And I know that you are deep,in the world of evangelism.
And so I wanna start by first justasking, from your perspective, why do
you think churches really struggle withevangelism and how can they really shift
(02:47):
towards, a culture where it becomesa natural part of their identity?
Brandi Williams (02:54):
Sure.
So churches struggle with evangelismbecause they don't prioritize evangelism.
Twanna Henderson (03:04):
We can stop right there.
Brandi Williams (03:07):
We really could.
they have no systems in place.
No structures in place.
No accountability, no tool that makesit palatable so that evangelism is
not this daunting task that seemslike it's just for some people.
Twanna Henderson (03:30):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (03:30):
As opposed to all people being capable of just
being in relationship with theirneighbors, their friends, et cetera.
Naturally sharing their faith.
And so again.
Lack of tools, lack of structure,lack of accountability, and
just overall outdated models.
Twanna Henderson (03:52):
Yeah.
And I think it's interesting that yousay that because you know, I think a lot
of times we kind of think, when we thinkevangelism, we think, oh, we just kind of
just knock on somebody's door or whateverthe case may be, or we give out some
tracks and that is kind of a old model.
I mean, I think so much has changedand obviously that's not working
(04:13):
because I don't think we've reallyseen the, the results that we need
to see as it relates to, evangelism.
I know with A-A-C-E-I, you reallyemphasize helping pastors build
what's called conversion communities.
What exactly is that and why isthat something that's essential
(04:34):
for church health today?
Brandi Williams (04:37):
Sure.
So I'll start by saying, statisticsthat a lot of times pastor are familiar
with about the state of the church inAmerica, so, which indicates that 59% of
churches, are plateaued or in decline.
Twanna Henderson (04:54):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (04:55):
31% grow via transfer growth.
Twanna Henderson (04:58):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (04:59):
Which means that only 10% of churches in America are
considered conversion communities.
Twanna Henderson (05:06):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (05:08):
Now, the signs of a church that prioritizes evangelism or that
we consider a conversion community, is onewhere you are clear that transformed lives
are present within that congregation.
And how do you know that?
It's through storytelling.
So, you know, back in the day,especially in the past church,
(05:31):
you do those testimony services.
Yes, there is something significantto people telling their testimony and
understanding, or the congregationbeing aware of how the Holy Spirit
is at work in people's livesand transforming people's lives.
Second, I'd say, or our researchshows even that signs of a conversion
(05:55):
community include that 10% of regularattendees are actually new believers.
Twanna Henderson (06:02):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (06:04):
And if 10% are new believers, then the stats say 5%
the church is growing in, churchgrowing in general by 5% each year.
Okay?
So 10% are 10% of regular attendeesare new believers, but there's church
(06:25):
growth happening annually at least by 5%.
Okay.
Twanna Henderson (06:29):
Okay.
Brandi Williams (06:29):
Okay.
And then the last sign of a conversioncommunity is just that it is prioritized.
Evangelism is one of the top threepriorities within a congregation.
Twanna Henderson (06:41):
Yeah.
Okay.
And that makes sense because a lot oftimes, you know, I think when we're
counting transfer growth, you know,people who are going from one door
to the next church or whatever is notreally the same thing, you know, in
terms of really looking at growth.
I had a pastor on, on the podcast a fewmonths ago, pastor Zach Bush, I don't know
(07:04):
if you know him or not, and he's committedto building a culture of evangelism
and doing some really great things.
And he may have gone throughthis program, I'm not sure.
Brandi Williams (07:12):
I think that name sounds familiar.
Twanna Henderson (07:14):
Yeah.
And so, you know, I asked him aboutsome of the misconceptions that,
that pastors have about evangelism.
Since you work so closely withpastors, what would you say are some
of the, the biggest misconceptionsthat pastors have about evangelism
and, and how does A.A.C.I.
(07:35):
even help to reshape their perspective.
Brandi Williams (07:38):
Mm-hmm.
So one, most times when pastors comeinto our program, it's, with a weight
that evangelism is all on them.
Twanna Henderson (07:50):
Hmm.
Brandi Williams (07:52):
And most of times that's because they are even solely viewing
themselves as evangelists from the pulpit.
Twanna Henderson (07:59):
Mm.
Brandi Williams (08:01):
And so what we find is that many times with pastors, they don't
have an active evangelism life outsideof their time in the pulpit on Sundays.
Twanna Henderson (08:11):
Ooh, okay.
Brandi Williams (08:13):
Okay.
So then that means that they need toshift from this individual is all on me.
I evangelize when I'm inthe pulpit type of mindset.
And they need to shift into.
How can I embody this?
Twanna Henderson (08:29):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (08:30):
So that I can model it for my key leaders so that my key
leaders can model it for congregantsand it begins to penetrate the life
and the culture of the congregation.
so often, even if a church has anevangelistic being, a lot of times pastors
(08:54):
are delegating this to someone else.
And so one of the things that wedrive home in the program is that if
the senior or lead pastor is not atthe helm of this, this will not work.
Twanna Henderson (09:08):
Okay.
Brandi Williams (09:09):
You can't give away something that you don't have yourself.
Twanna Henderson (09:13):
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (09:14):
You know, and have that expectation, you know, for your leaders
or the folks in your congregation.
And then I also think that one of thesignificant points in the program.
You know, when I grow up, you used tohear folks, Hey, get 'em to church,
or evangelize the loss to any cost.
(09:35):
And both of those statementsmake my skin crawl.
Versus looking for opportunitiesto listen, to understand, to on
ramp people into your church.
I think would be a much better approachbecause then that demonstrates a level of
(10:00):
intentionality that you wanna get over andtherefore you wanna understand what their
needs are or what their stories or theirapprehension or their pain points are,
so that you can look for opportunitiesto identify how to bridge them to Christ.
Twanna Henderson (10:19):
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (10:19):
So
I am really big on this concept ofhow can I be a bridge towards Christ.
Twanna Henderson (10:24):
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (10:25):
Because it's the work of the Holy Spirit that's going to,
oh, if they're dead and transgressions,there ain't nothing I can do for them.
Twanna Henderson (10:31):
Right.
Brandi Williams (10:32):
That is the work that's, that's Bible.
Twanna Henderson (10:35):
Right.
Brandi Williams (10:35):
The Holy Spirit will reprove.
Twanna Henderson (10:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (10:38):
You know, and so looking for those moments to bridge
the gap towards Christ, and thenthat's what we can do on an individual
level, but then on a corporate level,a church can be a bridge by having
on ramp opportunities and that moreso speaks to community engagement.
Twanna Henderson (10:56):
Yeah.
And I think that's true because Ithink, you know, there's just so many
things I think we have to rethink,you know, in Christian anyway,
in in, in the life of a church.
I know a lot of times many pastorsare passionate about outreach, but
really struggle with execution.
What are some practical ways thatleaders can really integrate, evangelism
(11:19):
into the DNA of of their churches?
Brandi Williams (11:23):
So they have to teach it.
You know, I've seen churches be soeffective at whatever they preach.
Twanna Henderson (11:30):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (11:31):
So if they preach outreach nine times outta
10, they're doing outreach.
If they preach worship nine times outta10, they have a high worship environment.
And I would say it's the same thing.
So it's the teaching, it's the preaching.
But then also, you know, pastorJenkins, in fact, he often talks
about how he starts every singleleadership meeting within his church
(11:55):
at First Baptist, asking his keyleaders, who have you been talking to?
Twanna Henderson (12:01):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (12:01):
About Christ.
Twanna Henderson (12:03):
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (12:03):
And, you know, his executive assistant keeps track of that.
I've heard Pastor Hendersontalk about that as well.
That, that there's a system in place,which goes back to what I said earlier.
In terms of how are we actuallyholding one another accountable,
cheering each other on?
Are we celebrating folks thatare coming into the kingdom?
(12:27):
Learning their stories listening.
Twanna Henderson (12:29):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (12:29):
I'm a big proponent of collecting data and simply
just what that means is just.
Do you have it in you to just listen,not presume that you know everything.
And, you know, the Church of Old hadthat very authoritative model and, you
know, that just doesn't work for today,especially, within this generation.
(12:52):
They have questions.
They deserve theirquestions to be answered.
they want spaces to wrestle in.
And so I think thatthe greatest advantage.
or the greatest opportunity, rather,the churches have is to be a space
where people can feel listened to or atleast, you know, ask their questions.
(13:15):
Wrestle, faith, right?
Having faith that doesn't mean thatthere's absence of doubt or apprehension
as we walk through this, life in Christ.
And so I just think thingslike that of just showing the.
Authentic nature of what it meansto walk with Christ is something
(13:35):
this generation was really craving.
Twanna Henderson (13:37):
Yeah.
'cause I think a lot of times we justdon't, I think we kinda underestimate
talking to our neighbors or, or mm-hmm.
You know, or talking to, you know,somebody who's sitting next to us and
Starbucks or whatever the case may be.
I just think a lot of times we don'tthink about, oh, you know what, that
really was an evangelistic opportunity.
Or that can be an opportunity just tobe able to build relationship, first
(14:01):
of all, you know, and then from that toreally talk about who we are, you know?
Brandi Williams (14:07):
Mm-hmm.
Twanna Henderson (14:07):
As, as, as, Christ followers.
I know that you work closely withpastors in a cohort model, and I'm
sure you've seen some transformationalstories and heard some stories,
that you've witnessed from pastors.
What, what, what are some of thosestories or what's, what's something,
a transformational story that you've,you've witnessed, from maybe some of the
(14:29):
pastors that have gone through, A.A.C.E.I?
Brandi Williams (14:32):
Mm-hmm.
So I think of a pastor inPhiladelphia who, when he took the
pastoral assignment, he was toldthat it was a congregation of 200.
Twanna Henderson (14:48):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (14:48):
Well, he gets into the role, he quickly finds out that
there's 200 members on the roll.
Twanna Henderson (14:57):
25 coming.
Brandi Williams (14:59):
Right but 40 actually attended.
At that time.
he comes into the programat the top of 2022.
By June 23, he reported 35% increase.
Now you got 40 folks coming.
(15:20):
You do the math.
That's about 55 folks.
Twanna Henderson (15:23):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (15:26):
That's significant.
If you have, number one, you added 12new believers to the body of Christ.
Twanna Henderson (15:31):
Right.
Brandi Williams (15:32):
And then nine of those 12 actually began to get
active in the life of the church.
Twanna Henderson (15:37):
Wow.
Wow.
Brandi Williams (15:38):
If you had 40 regular attendees and you got nine more people
Twanna Henderson (15:41):
mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (15:42):
That are
involved, it can help carry that call.
Twanna Henderson (15:46):
That's huge.
Brandi Williams (15:46):
That is very significant.
Twanna Henderson (15:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (15:49):
And so, you know, he represents a large number of pastors
because sometimes when pastors comeinto our program, they're concerned
about like, well, my church is only thissize, or we don't have this and that.
It's not, you don't needto be a mega church.
In fact, I would say the averagechurch that comes to our program, it's
(16:13):
probably somewhere between 100 to 700
Twanna Henderson (16:18):
mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (16:18):
congregants.
So clearly he was an outlier in that.
But still got his team lit up throughthe system that we offer through the
program, and they moved things forward.
Twanna Henderson (16:33):
Yeah, I mean, 'cause the average church in America is like,
what, 150 or something like that?
Brandi Williams (16:38):
Mm-hmm.
Twanna Henderson (16:38):
That's, I mean, that's, and people don't think about that, but
Brandi Williams (16:41):
mm-hmm.
Twanna Henderson (16:41):
Megachurches is not, that's not the average,
you know, size church, at all.
But we just hear about those and,you know, it can be, evangelism can
really be intimidating, I think,and, to both leaders and congregants.
How does A-A-C-E-I equip pastors tolead in a way that that makes evangelism
(17:06):
both approachable and sustainable?
Brandi Williams (17:11):
Okay, so I'll say this, and I haven't emphasized this in our
conversation yet, but we equip pastorsto foster evangelistic culture change.
There has to be a culture change process.
Twanna Henderson (17:29):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (17:30):
It is not a wham bam, thank you ma'am.
Twanna Henderson (17:33):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (17:35):
It's not a 1, 2, 3 step.
A lot of times people wanna hop on awebinar you know, because our program is
an 18 month commitment over two years.
Twanna Henderson (17:43):
Mm-hmm.
Wow.
Brandi Williams (17:46):
And so we know that culture change, just from an
organizational standpoint, takesthree to five years minimally.
Twanna Henderson (17:55):
Wow.
Brandi Williams (17:57):
So you're making an investment.
Mm-hmm.
because the, I would venture tosay the current culture of any
church didn't just end up that way.
It didn't just happen overnight.
Twanna Henderson (18:09):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (18:10):
So you're having to rethink, you're having to re-strategize.
You might need to let some people go.
Twanna Henderson (18:17):
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (18:17):
You switch some seats around.
Right.
All those things.
Because in the program we're having you tolook number one at yourself as the pastor.
Twanna Henderson (18:27):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (18:28):
Are you living it out?
Do you, maximize your relationshipswhere people, you know, I
have a pastor in the program.
He went through the program and he'sactually a coach in our program.
and he talks about
all the time how someone in the he,he hangs in the barbershop and he
(18:50):
goes to this barbershop all the timeand somebody asks the barber, when
was the last time he went to church?
And so the pastor sitting thereand he's like, well I would go
to church i'm just waiting on thepastor such and such to invite me.
And so that pastor, he's like.
(19:12):
And that's when it really clicked forhim, what it means for he, he himself
to embody evangelism with 'causeyou know, folks don't wear collar
and robes anymore, but when thatproverbial collar or robe comes off
Twanna Henderson (19:28):
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (19:29):
Am I sharing, am I inviting, how am I supporting,
how am I encouraging others?
And so we, we drive that home.
Yeah.
And the first nine months of the program.
And so it does have to begin with you.
And from there, the principles thatthe pastor is learning, he or she
(19:52):
then takes those things and beginto meet monthly with their leaders.
Twanna Henderson (19:57):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (19:58):
So
that the information isnot just sitting with them.
Twanna Henderson (20:02):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (20:03):
It begins to get down into the culture
because you're passing it on.
And then those key leaders pass iton to the folks that they oversee.
Twanna Henderson (20:13):
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (20:14):
And that creates something that's sustainable
because then evangelism becomeswho you are and what you do.
Twanna Henderson (20:24):
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (20:24):
And that's culture.
Twanna Henderson (20:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's good.
I mean, I, I actually recently had aneighbor that I had been inviting to
come and come and, and, you know, and soshe said after a certain period of time
she was gonna come, and after that timecame, I said, okay, that time is up now.
Are you coming?
And she came, and, and she and herhusband came and they accepted Christ.
(20:48):
And it was just amazing because somuch happens when we, when we do
take, that step to just invite people.
And I know that culturally thereare a lot of different differences.
I know, you know, in your researchand your experience at A.A.C.E.I.
how has it shaped your understandingof evangelism in the African
(21:12):
American context in the church?
Because there are cultural differences.
Brandi Williams (21:18):
Yeah.
So I would say that that, goingback to that relational piece
Twanna Henderson (21:25):
mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (21:25):
I would say the Church of all has had a very authoritative model.
evangelism comes by way of preachingthe gospel because in the African
American community the church wassuch a central part of the life of
African American communities, whetherit came to politics, education,
(21:50):
economic, I mean, that's our history.
That's what we're builton, that self-help piece.
Twanna Henderson (21:55):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (21:57):
And so
the thing is, is that this generationno longer looks at the church with the
same level of allegiance or relevance
Twanna Henderson (22:14):
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (22:15):
that their mothers and grandmothers did.
Twanna Henderson (22:18):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (22:19):
And so because of that, then you have to be able to,
I'm not saying compete or keep up orhave gimmicks because in fact, in our
research, you know, I was one of the focusgroup researchers for our Gen Z work.
They don't want gimmicks.
They want something that's real.
They want something that's authentic.
(22:42):
Right?
I remember one young lady saying, I don'twanna just hear about the mountaintop.
What was the valley like?
How did you navigate that?
Twanna Henderson (22:49):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (22:51):
Right?
And so if you're only up thereand you're preaching high moments
and you wagging your finger in me
Twanna Henderson (22:57):
mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (22:58):
that's not really giving me, the steps
of, of how you got from A to z.
Twanna Henderson (23:04):
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (23:04):
So I
think that's overall been a missing.
Twanna Henderson (23:07):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (23:08):
within the church just that sense of community
Twanna Henderson (23:12):
mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (23:13):
And doing life with people.
Twanna Henderson (23:15):
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (23:15):
Like we know how to church.
Twanna Henderson (23:16):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (23:18):
We know how to shout.
We know how to, how tohave emotional highs.
Twanna Henderson (23:21):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (23:22):
but I think also discipleship has been a huge missing.
Twanna Henderson (23:27):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (23:28):
So if I'm, I come and I get hyped up on Sunday
but I don't have anything tosustain me throughout the week.
Twanna Henderson (23:36):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (23:37):
and so I think discipleship, I, I have noticed
has been a missing as well.
Just being willing to walk with people.
I also think a lot of timesleaders can be very, presumptuous,
and assume that they know whatpeople need, what they want.
(24:02):
And versus just actually beingin relationship with people,
to learn what the needs are.
Twanna Henderson (24:10):
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (24:10):
And, and being able to meet them that way.
So those are some of the thingsthat I, that I've noticed.
Twanna Henderson (24:17):
Yeah, it's an investment.
I mean, it takes time to, to,you know, pour into people,
to spend time with people.
I mean, it takes time.
It really does.
And.
And a commitment.
this is so good.
So what's one simple, but powerfulstep that pastors, and church
leaders, listening today can taketo begin shifting their church
(24:42):
towards a culture of evangelism?
Brandi Williams (24:45):
One word or is it two words?
On ramp.
Twanna Henderson (24:51):
We'll make it two.
Brandi Williams (24:56):
I can't say that, enough.
And so if the focus be,how can we be visible?
How can we create community partnership?
How can we engage our community?
How can we demonstrate we actuallyknow what's going on in the world?
(25:16):
We don't have to be right.
We in it and not of it, but we,we need to know what's going on.
Twanna Henderson (25:21):
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (25:22):
To know how to serve and to do so in very innovative way.
Twanna Henderson (25:27):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (25:28):
So
to go back to the, the pastor whohas this Latino population in his
community, I said, well, have youconsidered hosting an ESL class?
And so, you know.
He said they actually weretaking steps to do that.
(25:49):
Right.
And so then for me, like, can you be,can you consider ESL Christ Church?
Like we have these frameworks and theseboxes of what we believe church is.
Twanna Henderson (26:05):
Right.
Right.
Brandi Williams (26:07):
Yeah.
but can ESL class, be church?
I've spoken to one pastor thatactually he, I think he starts the
program tonight and he first startedonline, like an online bible study.
He then went on to launch theplan and they meet on Saturdays.
I love that.
(26:27):
3:00 PM to 5:00 PM I'mlike, man, what city you in?
I like my Sundays.
Okay.
Like, that's just my,that's just, I don't know.
I'm one of the older millennials.
I don't know if it's a, I wouldlove a 3:00 PM to 5:00 PM on a
Saturday opportunity for worship.
And then now what they do todevelop just more community
(26:51):
kind of familial, vibe to it.
They have a monthly Sunday outing,so they gather every Saturday, you
know, late afternoon, and then theyhave the monthly Sunday, you know,
where everybody brings their family,does some type of group activity.
I love that.
Twanna Henderson (27:09):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (27:10):
It's an out, it's an out of box of, out of the box
approach, to ministry and it'snot limiting, church worship.
You know, presenting the gospelbuilding community, it is not
limiting it to this Sunday morningthing, this heavy programmatic thing,
(27:32):
you know, that, that churches do,which a lot of times in churches
programs are for the people inside.
Twanna Henderson (27:42):
Mm.
Brandi Williams (27:42):
You gotta get outside.
Twanna Henderson (27:44):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (27:44):
So what is the on ramp opportunity?
Twanna Henderson (27:47):
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (27:48):
If there's summer festivals going on.
Why aren't you having asummer festival too, right?
Twanna Henderson (27:54):
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (27:54):
Right.
Just things like that, that, that stancethat, you know, we, we are here to serve.
We want to serve, we wantto be engaged with you.
Twanna Henderson (28:04):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (28:05):
We're not just concerned about our church
growth and our church membership.
We we're, we want to bea part of the community.
Twanna Henderson (28:13):
Right.
Brandi Williams (28:13):
And so i'll end with this, this is a pastor, he
started our program in September.
Now he, he was doing this beforehe came to the program, and
I just think it's brilliant.
Twanna Henderson (28:24):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (28:25):
He said there's a basketball court across
the street from his church.
Twanna Henderson (28:30):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (28:31):
And during first time, there's always a
group of boys out there playing.
Twanna Henderson (28:36):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (28:37):
What he started to do was sending his boys out to play
basketball with them during church.
Twanna Henderson (28:45):
Hmm.
Brandi Williams (28:46):
Now the agreement is that.
If the boys church win, the otherguys have to come to church.
Ah, if the guys from the neighborhoodwin, the boys from church have
to go take them to like a lunchat Chicken Shack up the street.
Twanna Henderson (29:05):
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (29:07):
As far as I'm concerned, church is still happening.
Twanna Henderson (29:10):
Right?
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (29:12):
You see what I'm saying?
So it's creating like that, whereyou're not so chained to models that
throughout time have been handed to us.
Twanna Henderson (29:26):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (29:29):
Have become a law or become these, these rules that just
have nothing to do with outreach.
I'll say that, to say that thechurch, church services, but the
church the church belongs to Christ.
Like, so the church itself is gonnabe, it's gonna be good either way.
Twanna Henderson (29:51):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (29:51):
It has to flourish.
It has to succeed becauseit's the bride of Christ.
But now the people, thepeople are ours, right?
Because.
Great commission.
That's what we've assigned to do.
And that's for all of us.
That's not just for some of us.
That's for all of us.
Twanna Henderson (30:08):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's good.
That's good.
And you know, there's work to be done.
And I think, and that's why I'm so gladthat we are on this mission of building
and rebuilding a culture of evangelism.
Brandi Williams (30:21):
Mm-hmm.
Twanna Henderson (30:22):
As someone, as we close as who walks alongside pastors, in
this space of evangelism, can you prayfor pastors and leaders, to, to really
boldly build conversion communitiesand be intentional about integrating
evangelism into the DNA of their churches?
Brandi Williams (30:46):
Sure.
Twanna Henderson (30:47):
Thank you.
Brandi Williams (30:49):
God, I come to you now lifting up every pastor and leader,
that will listen to this podcast.
God, I pray that first, that theywould commit themselves to prayer, and
intercession for the strategies, toreally just be good stewards and sons and
(31:14):
daughters who are committed to, disciplingothers to sharing their faith with others.
God, I also pray that.
They would just keep the mainthing, the main thing, that they
would do away with gimmicks orthis hyper concern around growth.
(31:37):
Knowing that if they show up asjust faithful to the main thing
that you have given us to do, thatyou will add the increase, increase
is your, and so we thank you.
that the church is yours.
That it's not even up to us.
We, you allow us to partnerwith you, to co-labor with
(32:00):
you but the results are yours.
And so we thank you for that.
And so I just pray that pastors andleaders would just be encouraged,
that they would be willing totake risks to be innovative, that
they'd be willing to listen, thatthey'd be willing to reconsider.
Maybe scratch some things all togetherand go back to the drawing board
(32:24):
but mindful of the fact that all thatthey do, is for your glory, and that
your glory would be the priority.
I pray this in your name, Amen.
Twanna Henderson (32:36):
Amen.
Brandi, thank you so much for joining us.
You are always a wealth of knowledge,and I appreciate you so much.
Brandi Williams (32:46):
Thank you so much.
Twanna Henderson (32:47):
Well, that's all the time that we have.
Thank you all for joining us, and to allof our listeners, I'm Twanna Henderson.
Until the next time, be blessed
of the Lord.
Well, welcome to T Time
for With and About Women.
I'm your host, Twanna Henderson, andit's always, I want to remind you to,
like this broadcast and definitelyshare it with someone else in your life.
Well, as you know, we have beencontinuing in our focus this year on
the topic of evangelism, and todaywe have the evangelism princess.
(00:32):
I'm gonna call her.
Our guest is Brandi Ann Williams.
Brandi, Williams is the directorof the African American Church
Evangelism Institute, also knownas A-A-C-E-I at Wheaton College
where she leads initiatives tohelp pastors cultivate thriving
conversion centered congregations.
(00:53):
Brandi obtained her master's degreein theological studies from Trinity
Evangelical Divinity School and is nowobtaining her PhD in organizational
leadership at Eastern University.
Brandi has a deep passion forequipping leaders, and she serves
as a bridge between generations.
Working to connect senior pastorswith younger leaders to ensure that
(01:16):
the future of the church remainsvibrant and mission focused.
She is a member of the Gen Z researchteam at Wheaton's Graham Center and
is passionate about helping ministriesnavigate cultural shifts and rethink
evangelism for emerging generations.
Her commitment to relational evangelismand innovative leadership development
(01:38):
makes her a sought after voicein conversations about the future
of the church, and in particularthe black church, an effective
discipleship in an ever changing world.
Brandi, welcome back to T Time.
Brandi Williams (01:50):
Thank you.
Twanna Henderson (01:51):
So it's good to see
you.
Have you been?
Brandi Williams (01:55):
Oh man, all is well.
I'm almost at the end of the PhD journey.
Twanna Henderson (01:59):
Wow.
Brandi Williams (02:00):
So next time I come back,
Twanna Henderson (02:02):
Woohoo!
You'll be Dr.
Brandi.
Well, you have definitelybeen busier than ever.
I do not envy that at all, but I'mexcited to have you back today as
we have been, this year has beendedicated to evangelism and the goal of
(02:23):
President Jenkins, who is the presidentof Converge, has been to build and
to rebuild a culture of evangelism.
And I know that you are deep,in the world of evangelism.
And so I wanna start by first justasking, from your perspective, why do
you think churches really struggle withevangelism and how can they really shift
(02:47):
towards, a culture where it becomesa natural part of their identity?
Brandi Williams (02:54):
Sure.
So churches struggle with evangelismbecause they don't prioritize evangelism.
Twanna Henderson (03:04):
We can stop right there.
Brandi Williams (03:07):
We really could.
they have no systems in place.
No structures in place.
No accountability, no tool that makesit palatable so that evangelism is
not this daunting task that seemslike it's just for some people.
Twanna Henderson (03:30):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (03:30):
As opposed to all people being capable of just
being in relationship with theirneighbors, their friends, et cetera.
Naturally sharing their faith.
And so again.
Lack of tools, lack of structure,lack of accountability, and
just overall outdated models.
Twanna Henderson (03:52):
Yeah.
And I think it's interesting that yousay that because you know, I think a lot
of times we kind of think, when we thinkevangelism, we think, oh, we just kind of
just knock on somebody's door or whateverthe case may be, or we give out some
tracks and that is kind of a old model.
I mean, I think so much has changedand obviously that's not working
(04:13):
because I don't think we've reallyseen the, the results that we need
to see as it relates to, evangelism.
I know with A-A-C-E-I, you reallyemphasize helping pastors build
what's called conversion communities.
What exactly is that and why isthat something that's essential
(04:34):
for church health today?
Brandi Williams (04:37):
Sure.
So I'll start by saying, statisticsthat a lot of times pastor are familiar
with about the state of the church inAmerica, so, which indicates that 59% of
churches, are plateaued or in decline.
Twanna Henderson (04:54):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (04:55):
31% grow via transfer growth.
Twanna Henderson (04:58):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (04:59):
Which means that only 10% of churches in America are
considered conversion communities.
Twanna Henderson (05:06):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (05:08):
Now, the signs of a church that prioritizes evangelism or that
we consider a conversion community, is onewhere you are clear that transformed lives
are present within that congregation.
And how do you know that?
It's through storytelling.
So, you know, back in the day,especially in the past church,
(05:31):
you do those testimony services.
Yes, there is something significantto people telling their testimony and
understanding, or the congregationbeing aware of how the Holy Spirit
is at work in people's livesand transforming people's lives.
Second, I'd say, or our researchshows even that signs of a conversion
(05:55):
community include that 10% of regularattendees are actually new believers.
Twanna Henderson (06:02):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (06:04):
And if 10% are new believers, then the stats say 5%
the church is growing in, churchgrowing in general by 5% each year.
Okay?
So 10% are 10% of regular attendeesare new believers, but there's church
(06:25):
growth happening annually at least by 5%.
Okay.
Twanna Henderson (06:29):
Okay.
Brandi Williams (06:29):
Okay.
And then the last sign of a conversioncommunity is just that it is prioritized.
Evangelism is one of the top threepriorities within a congregation.
Twanna Henderson (06:41):
Yeah.
Okay.
And that makes sense because a lot oftimes, you know, I think when we're
counting transfer growth, you know,people who are going from one door
to the next church or whatever is notreally the same thing, you know, in
terms of really looking at growth.
I had a pastor on, on the podcast a fewmonths ago, pastor Zach Bush, I don't know
(07:04):
if you know him or not, and he's committedto building a culture of evangelism
and doing some really great things.
And he may have gone throughthis program, I'm not sure.
Brandi Williams (07:12):
I think that name sounds familiar.
Twanna Henderson (07:14):
Yeah.
And so, you know, I asked him aboutsome of the misconceptions that,
that pastors have about evangelism.
Since you work so closely withpastors, what would you say are some
of the, the biggest misconceptionsthat pastors have about evangelism
and, and how does A.A.C.I.
(07:35):
even help to reshape their perspective.
Brandi Williams (07:38):
Mm-hmm.
So one, most times when pastors comeinto our program, it's, with a weight
that evangelism is all on them.
Twanna Henderson (07:50):
Hmm.
Brandi Williams (07:52):
And most of times that's because they are even solely viewing
themselves as evangelists from the pulpit.
Twanna Henderson (07:59):
Mm.
Brandi Williams (08:01):
And so what we find is that many times with pastors, they don't
have an active evangelism life outsideof their time in the pulpit on Sundays.
Twanna Henderson (08:11):
Ooh, okay.
Brandi Williams (08:13):
Okay.
So then that means that they need toshift from this individual is all on me.
I evangelize when I'm inthe pulpit type of mindset.
And they need to shift into.
How can I embody this?
Twanna Henderson (08:29):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (08:30):
So that I can model it for my key leaders so that my key
leaders can model it for congregantsand it begins to penetrate the life
and the culture of the congregation.
so often, even if a church has anevangelistic being, a lot of times pastors
(08:54):
are delegating this to someone else.
And so one of the things that wedrive home in the program is that if
the senior or lead pastor is not atthe helm of this, this will not work.
Twanna Henderson (09:08):
Okay.
Brandi Williams (09:09):
You can't give away something that you don't have yourself.
Twanna Henderson (09:13):
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (09:14):
You know, and have that expectation, you know, for your leaders
or the folks in your congregation.
And then I also think that one of thesignificant points in the program.
You know, when I grow up, you used tohear folks, Hey, get 'em to church,
or evangelize the loss to any cost.
(09:35):
And both of those statementsmake my skin crawl.
Versus looking for opportunitiesto listen, to understand, to on
ramp people into your church.
I think would be a much better approachbecause then that demonstrates a level of
(10:00):
intentionality that you wanna get over andtherefore you wanna understand what their
needs are or what their stories or theirapprehension or their pain points are,
so that you can look for opportunitiesto identify how to bridge them to Christ.
Twanna Henderson (10:19):
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (10:19):
So
I am really big on this concept ofhow can I be a bridge towards Christ.
Twanna Henderson (10:24):
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (10:25):
Because it's the work of the Holy Spirit that's going to,
oh, if they're dead and transgressions,there ain't nothing I can do for them.
Twanna Henderson (10:31):
Right.
Brandi Williams (10:32):
That is the work that's, that's Bible.
Twanna Henderson (10:35):
Right.
Brandi Williams (10:35):
The Holy Spirit will reprove.
Twanna Henderson (10:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (10:38):
You know, and so looking for those moments to bridge
the gap towards Christ, and thenthat's what we can do on an individual
level, but then on a corporate level,a church can be a bridge by having
on ramp opportunities and that moreso speaks to community engagement.
Twanna Henderson (10:56):
Yeah.
And I think that's true because Ithink, you know, there's just so many
things I think we have to rethink,you know, in Christian anyway,
in in, in the life of a church.
I know a lot of times many pastorsare passionate about outreach, but
really struggle with execution.
What are some practical ways thatleaders can really integrate, evangelism
(11:19):
into the DNA of of their churches?
Brandi Williams (11:23):
So they have to teach it.
You know, I've seen churches be soeffective at whatever they preach.
Twanna Henderson (11:30):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (11:31):
So if they preach outreach nine times outta
10, they're doing outreach.
If they preach worship nine times outta10, they have a high worship environment.
And I would say it's the same thing.
So it's the teaching, it's the preaching.
But then also, you know, pastorJenkins, in fact, he often talks
about how he starts every singleleadership meeting within his church
(11:55):
at First Baptist, asking his keyleaders, who have you been talking to?
Twanna Henderson (12:01):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (12:01):
About Christ.
Twanna Henderson (12:03):
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (12:03):
And, you know, his executive assistant keeps track of that.
I've heard Pastor Hendersontalk about that as well.
That, that there's a system in place,which goes back to what I said earlier.
In terms of how are we actuallyholding one another accountable,
cheering each other on?
Are we celebrating folks thatare coming into the kingdom?
(12:27):
Learning their stories listening.
Twanna Henderson (12:29):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (12:29):
I'm a big proponent of collecting data and simply
just what that means is just.
Do you have it in you to just listen,not presume that you know everything.
And, you know, the Church of Old hadthat very authoritative model and, you
know, that just doesn't work for today,especially, within this generation.
(12:52):
They have questions.
They deserve theirquestions to be answered.
they want spaces to wrestle in.
And so I think thatthe greatest advantage.
or the greatest opportunity, rather,the churches have is to be a space
where people can feel listened to or atleast, you know, ask their questions.
(13:15):
Wrestle, faith, right?
Having faith that doesn't mean thatthere's absence of doubt or apprehension
as we walk through this, life in Christ.
And so I just think thingslike that of just showing the.
Authentic nature of what it meansto walk with Christ is something
(13:35):
this generation was really craving.
Twanna Henderson (13:37):
Yeah.
'cause I think a lot of times we justdon't, I think we kinda underestimate
talking to our neighbors or, or mm-hmm.
You know, or talking to, you know,somebody who's sitting next to us and
Starbucks or whatever the case may be.
I just think a lot of times we don'tthink about, oh, you know what, that
really was an evangelistic opportunity.
Or that can be an opportunity just tobe able to build relationship, first
(14:01):
of all, you know, and then from that toreally talk about who we are, you know?
Brandi Williams (14:07):
Mm-hmm.
Twanna Henderson (14:07):
As, as, as, Christ followers.
I know that you work closely withpastors in a cohort model, and I'm
sure you've seen some transformationalstories and heard some stories,
that you've witnessed from pastors.
What, what, what are some of thosestories or what's, what's something,
a transformational story that you've,you've witnessed, from maybe some of the
(14:29):
pastors that have gone through, A.A.C.E.I?
Brandi Williams (14:32):
Mm-hmm.
So I think of a pastor inPhiladelphia who, when he took the
pastoral assignment, he was toldthat it was a congregation of 200.
Twanna Henderson (14:48):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (14:48):
Well, he gets into the role, he quickly finds out that
there's 200 members on the roll.
Twanna Henderson (14:57):
25 coming.
Brandi Williams (14:59):
Right but 40 actually attended.
At that time.
he comes into the programat the top of 2022.
By June 23, he reported 35% increase.
Now you got 40 folks coming.
(15:20):
You do the math.
That's about 55 folks.
Twanna Henderson (15:23):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (15:26):
That's significant.
If you have, number one, you added 12new believers to the body of Christ.
Twanna Henderson (15:31):
Right.
Brandi Williams (15:32):
And then nine of those 12 actually began to get
active in the life of the church.
Twanna Henderson (15:37):
Wow.
Wow.
Brandi Williams (15:38):
If you had 40 regular attendees and you got nine more people
Twanna Henderson (15:41):
mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (15:42):
That are
involved, it can help carry that call.
Twanna Henderson (15:46):
That's huge.
Brandi Williams (15:46):
That is very significant.
Twanna Henderson (15:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (15:49):
And so, you know, he represents a large number of pastors
because sometimes when pastors comeinto our program, they're concerned
about like, well, my church is only thissize, or we don't have this and that.
It's not, you don't needto be a mega church.
In fact, I would say the averagechurch that comes to our program, it's
(16:13):
probably somewhere between 100 to 700
Twanna Henderson (16:18):
mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (16:18):
congregants.
So clearly he was an outlier in that.
But still got his team lit up throughthe system that we offer through the
program, and they moved things forward.
Twanna Henderson (16:33):
Yeah, I mean, 'cause the average church in America is like,
what, 150 or something like that?
Brandi Williams (16:38):
Mm-hmm.
Twanna Henderson (16:38):
That's, I mean, that's, and people don't think about that, but
Brandi Williams (16:41):
mm-hmm.
Twanna Henderson (16:41):
Megachurches is not, that's not the average,
you know, size church, at all.
But we just hear about those and,you know, it can be, evangelism can
really be intimidating, I think,and, to both leaders and congregants.
How does A-A-C-E-I equip pastors tolead in a way that that makes evangelism
(17:06):
both approachable and sustainable?
Brandi Williams (17:11):
Okay, so I'll say this, and I haven't emphasized this in our
conversation yet, but we equip pastorsto foster evangelistic culture change.
There has to be a culture change process.
Twanna Henderson (17:29):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (17:30):
It is not a wham bam, thank you ma'am.
Twanna Henderson (17:33):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (17:35):
It's not a 1, 2, 3 step.
A lot of times people wanna hop on awebinar you know, because our program is
an 18 month commitment over two years.
Twanna Henderson (17:43):
Mm-hmm.
Wow.
Brandi Williams (17:46):
And so we know that culture change, just from an
organizational standpoint, takesthree to five years minimally.
Twanna Henderson (17:55):
Wow.
Brandi Williams (17:57):
So you're making an investment.
Mm-hmm.
because the, I would venture tosay the current culture of any
church didn't just end up that way.
It didn't just happen overnight.
Twanna Henderson (18:09):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (18:10):
So you're having to rethink, you're having to re-strategize.
You might need to let some people go.
Twanna Henderson (18:17):
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (18:17):
You switch some seats around.
Right.
All those things.
Because in the program we're having you tolook number one at yourself as the pastor.
Twanna Henderson (18:27):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (18:28):
Are you living it out?
Do you, maximize your relationshipswhere people, you know, I
have a pastor in the program.
He went through the program and he'sactually a coach in our program.
and he talks about
all the time how someone in the he,he hangs in the barbershop and he
(18:50):
goes to this barbershop all the timeand somebody asks the barber, when
was the last time he went to church?
And so the pastor sitting thereand he's like, well I would go
to church i'm just waiting on thepastor such and such to invite me.
And so that pastor, he's like.
(19:12):
And that's when it really clicked forhim, what it means for he, he himself
to embody evangelism with 'causeyou know, folks don't wear collar
and robes anymore, but when thatproverbial collar or robe comes off
Twanna Henderson (19:28):
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (19:29):
Am I sharing, am I inviting, how am I supporting,
how am I encouraging others?
And so we, we drive that home.
Yeah.
And the first nine months of the program.
And so it does have to begin with you.
And from there, the principles thatthe pastor is learning, he or she
(19:52):
then takes those things and beginto meet monthly with their leaders.
Twanna Henderson (19:57):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (19:58):
So
that the information isnot just sitting with them.
Twanna Henderson (20:02):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (20:03):
It begins to get down into the culture
because you're passing it on.
And then those key leaders pass iton to the folks that they oversee.
Twanna Henderson (20:13):
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (20:14):
And that creates something that's sustainable
because then evangelism becomeswho you are and what you do.
Twanna Henderson (20:24):
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (20:24):
And that's culture.
Twanna Henderson (20:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's good.
I mean, I, I actually recently had aneighbor that I had been inviting to
come and come and, and, you know, and soshe said after a certain period of time
she was gonna come, and after that timecame, I said, okay, that time is up now.
Are you coming?
And she came, and, and she and herhusband came and they accepted Christ.
(20:48):
And it was just amazing because somuch happens when we, when we do
take, that step to just invite people.
And I know that culturally thereare a lot of different differences.
I know, you know, in your researchand your experience at A.A.C.E.I.
how has it shaped your understandingof evangelism in the African
(21:12):
American context in the church?
Because there are cultural differences.
Brandi Williams (21:18):
Yeah.
So I would say that that, goingback to that relational piece
Twanna Henderson (21:25):
mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (21:25):
I would say the Church of all has had a very authoritative model.
evangelism comes by way of preachingthe gospel because in the African
American community the church wassuch a central part of the life of
African American communities, whetherit came to politics, education,
(21:50):
economic, I mean, that's our history.
That's what we're builton, that self-help piece.
Twanna Henderson (21:55):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (21:57):
And so
the thing is, is that this generationno longer looks at the church with the
same level of allegiance or relevance
Twanna Henderson (22:14):
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (22:15):
that their mothers and grandmothers did.
Twanna Henderson (22:18):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (22:19):
And so because of that, then you have to be able to,
I'm not saying compete or keep up orhave gimmicks because in fact, in our
research, you know, I was one of the focusgroup researchers for our Gen Z work.
They don't want gimmicks.
They want something that's real.
They want something that's authentic.
(22:42):
Right?
I remember one young lady saying, I don'twanna just hear about the mountaintop.
What was the valley like?
How did you navigate that?
Twanna Henderson (22:49):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (22:51):
Right?
And so if you're only up thereand you're preaching high moments
and you wagging your finger in me
Twanna Henderson (22:57):
mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (22:58):
that's not really giving me, the steps
of, of how you got from A to z.
Twanna Henderson (23:04):
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (23:04):
So I
think that's overall been a missing.
Twanna Henderson (23:07):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (23:08):
within the church just that sense of community
Twanna Henderson (23:12):
mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (23:13):
And doing life with people.
Twanna Henderson (23:15):
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (23:15):
Like we know how to church.
Twanna Henderson (23:16):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (23:18):
We know how to shout.
We know how to, how tohave emotional highs.
Twanna Henderson (23:21):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (23:22):
but I think also discipleship has been a huge missing.
Twanna Henderson (23:27):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (23:28):
So if I'm, I come and I get hyped up on Sunday
but I don't have anything tosustain me throughout the week.
Twanna Henderson (23:36):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (23:37):
and so I think discipleship, I, I have noticed
has been a missing as well.
Just being willing to walk with people.
I also think a lot of timesleaders can be very, presumptuous,
and assume that they know whatpeople need, what they want.
(24:02):
And versus just actually beingin relationship with people,
to learn what the needs are.
Twanna Henderson (24:10):
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (24:10):
And, and being able to meet them that way.
So those are some of the thingsthat I, that I've noticed.
Twanna Henderson (24:17):
Yeah, it's an investment.
I mean, it takes time to, to,you know, pour into people,
to spend time with people.
I mean, it takes time.
It really does.
And.
And a commitment.
this is so good.
So what's one simple, but powerfulstep that pastors, and church
leaders, listening today can taketo begin shifting their church
(24:42):
towards a culture of evangelism?
Brandi Williams (24:45):
One word or is it two words?
On ramp.
Twanna Henderson (24:51):
We'll make it two.
Brandi Williams (24:56):
I can't say that, enough.
And so if the focus be,how can we be visible?
How can we create community partnership?
How can we engage our community?
How can we demonstrate we actuallyknow what's going on in the world?
(25:16):
We don't have to be right.
We in it and not of it, but we,we need to know what's going on.
Twanna Henderson (25:21):
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (25:22):
To know how to serve and to do so in very innovative way.
Twanna Henderson (25:27):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (25:28):
So
to go back to the, the pastor whohas this Latino population in his
community, I said, well, have youconsidered hosting an ESL class?
And so, you know.
He said they actually weretaking steps to do that.
(25:49):
Right.
And so then for me, like, can you be,can you consider ESL Christ Church?
Like we have these frameworks and theseboxes of what we believe church is.
Twanna Henderson (26:05):
Right.
Right.
Brandi Williams (26:07):
Yeah.
but can ESL class, be church?
I've spoken to one pastor thatactually he, I think he starts the
program tonight and he first startedonline, like an online bible study.
He then went on to launch theplan and they meet on Saturdays.
I love that.
(26:27):
3:00 PM to 5:00 PM I'mlike, man, what city you in?
I like my Sundays.
Okay.
Like, that's just my,that's just, I don't know.
I'm one of the older millennials.
I don't know if it's a, I wouldlove a 3:00 PM to 5:00 PM on a
Saturday opportunity for worship.
And then now what they do todevelop just more community
(26:51):
kind of familial, vibe to it.
They have a monthly Sunday outing,so they gather every Saturday, you
know, late afternoon, and then theyhave the monthly Sunday, you know,
where everybody brings their family,does some type of group activity.
I love that.
Twanna Henderson (27:09):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (27:10):
It's an out, it's an out of box of, out of the box
approach, to ministry and it'snot limiting, church worship.
You know, presenting the gospelbuilding community, it is not
limiting it to this Sunday morningthing, this heavy programmatic thing,
(27:32):
you know, that, that churches do,which a lot of times in churches
programs are for the people inside.
Twanna Henderson (27:42):
Mm.
Brandi Williams (27:42):
You gotta get outside.
Twanna Henderson (27:44):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (27:44):
So what is the on ramp opportunity?
Twanna Henderson (27:47):
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (27:48):
If there's summer festivals going on.
Why aren't you having asummer festival too, right?
Twanna Henderson (27:54):
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (27:54):
Right.
Just things like that, that, that stancethat, you know, we, we are here to serve.
We want to serve, we wantto be engaged with you.
Twanna Henderson (28:04):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (28:05):
We're not just concerned about our church
growth and our church membership.
We we're, we want to bea part of the community.
Twanna Henderson (28:13):
Right.
Brandi Williams (28:13):
And so i'll end with this, this is a pastor, he
started our program in September.
Now he, he was doing this beforehe came to the program, and
I just think it's brilliant.
Twanna Henderson (28:24):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (28:25):
He said there's a basketball court across
the street from his church.
Twanna Henderson (28:30):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (28:31):
And during first time, there's always a
group of boys out there playing.
Twanna Henderson (28:36):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (28:37):
What he started to do was sending his boys out to play
basketball with them during church.
Twanna Henderson (28:45):
Hmm.
Brandi Williams (28:46):
Now the agreement is that.
If the boys church win, the otherguys have to come to church.
Ah, if the guys from the neighborhoodwin, the boys from church have
to go take them to like a lunchat Chicken Shack up the street.
Twanna Henderson (29:05):
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (29:07):
As far as I'm concerned, church is still happening.
Twanna Henderson (29:10):
Right?
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (29:12):
You see what I'm saying?
So it's creating like that, whereyou're not so chained to models that
throughout time have been handed to us.
Twanna Henderson (29:26):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Brandi Williams (29:29):
Have become a law or become these, these rules that just
have nothing to do with outreach.
I'll say that, to say that thechurch, church services, but the
church the church belongs to Christ.
Like, so the church itself is gonnabe, it's gonna be good either way.
Twanna Henderson (29:51):
Mm-hmm.
Brandi Williams (29:51):
It has to flourish.
It has to succeed becauseit's the bride of Christ.
But now the people, thepeople are ours, right?
Because.
Great commission.
That's what we've assigned to do.
And that's for all of us.
That's not just for some of us.
That's for all of us.
Twanna Henderson (30:08):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's good.
That's good.
And you know, there's work to be done.
And I think, and that's why I'm so gladthat we are on this mission of building
and rebuilding a culture of evangelism.
Brandi Williams (30:21):
Mm-hmm.
Twanna Henderson (30:22):
As someone, as we close as who walks alongside pastors, in
this space of evangelism, can you prayfor pastors and leaders, to, to really
boldly build conversion communitiesand be intentional about integrating
evangelism into the DNA of their churches?
Brandi Williams (30:46):
Sure.
Twanna Henderson (30:47):
Thank you.
Brandi Williams (30:49):
God, I come to you now lifting up every pastor and leader,
that will listen to this podcast.
God, I pray that first, that theywould commit themselves to prayer, and
intercession for the strategies, toreally just be good stewards and sons and
(31:14):
daughters who are committed to, disciplingothers to sharing their faith with others.
God, I also pray that.
They would just keep the mainthing, the main thing, that they
would do away with gimmicks orthis hyper concern around growth.
(31:37):
Knowing that if they show up asjust faithful to the main thing
that you have given us to do, thatyou will add the increase, increase
is your, and so we thank you.
that the church is yours.
That it's not even up to us.
We, you allow us to partnerwith you, to co-labor with
(32:00):
you but the results are yours.
And so we thank you for that.
And so I just pray that pastors andleaders would just be encouraged,
that they would be willing totake risks to be innovative, that
they'd be willing to listen, thatthey'd be willing to reconsider.
Maybe scratch some things all togetherand go back to the drawing board
(32:24):
but mindful of the fact that all thatthey do, is for your glory, and that
your glory would be the priority.
I pray this in your name, Amen.
Twanna Henderson (32:36):
Amen.
Brandi, thank you so much for joining us.
You are always a wealth of knowledge,and I appreciate you so much.
Brandi Williams (32:46):
Thank you so much.
Twanna Henderson (32:47):
Well, that's all the time that we have.
Thank you all for joining us, and to allof our listeners, I'm Twanna Henderson.
Until the next time, be blessed
of the Lord.
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