From Player to Dungeon Master: Patrick's Story

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome back to another episode of Table Talk
Friday, a D&D podcast.
I'm your host, Oswin Alemaker,and I just wanted to tell you
about three boys who love totalk about D&D.
If you like their style, youshould follow them on any
podcast service you prefer, andcome back every Friday for a new

(00:20):
episode.
And without any further ado,back to the boys!

SPEAKER_04 (00:26):
Welcome to Table Talk Friday, a D&D podcast where
two best friends are sitting intwo separate bedrooms.
We used to be all in onebedroom, and now we're in two
separate ones.
My name is Matthew Seth Reed,used to be Seth Pittman.
A lot's changed in a year and ahalf, and I'm here today with
Patrick Fonjami.
Patrick, why don't you introduce

SPEAKER_02 (00:42):
yourself a little bit?
Hi, everyone.
Patrick, I'm best friend ofSeth.
I've known him for, I want tosay...

SPEAKER_04 (00:50):
17?
17 years?

SPEAKER_02 (00:52):
Yeah, a majority of my life.
I think I was 10 when we met.
Now I'm 27.
Yeah,

SPEAKER_04 (00:59):
oh gosh.
It's been a really long time.
Yeah, Patrick's been aconsistent player in our
campaign since we went to thesame college.
Both got into D&D around thesame time.
And yeah, he's been playing inmy campaigns for years and years
and years.
And now here we are.
Finally, he's been the DM for usfor the past, what, four or five

(01:19):
months?
Yeah, I believe what's going onabout that time, yeah.
Jesus Christ, dude.
I mean, it's been crazy, becauseI got to experience you starting
out as a player, very beginning,and now coming into, like,
you're DMing a great campaignfor us.
I've been loving every bit of itso far.
I'm glad.
But yeah, right here at thebeginning, I just want to do

(01:41):
some catching up.
This is our first episode backin quite a long time, and it's
just you and me.
We don't have Zach today.
We don't have Drew today.
It's just you and me.
You know, everybody's busy.
Oh, no.

SPEAKER_02 (01:52):
Glad to be

SPEAKER_04 (01:53):
here.
Okay, so how's it going?
What have you been up to lately?
Do you have any life updates forme, you know?

SPEAKER_02 (01:59):
Let's see life updates.
So I guess I'm still I'm a musicteacher.
I teach at a place called Schoolof Rock.
The way I describe it.
Yeah, the way I yeah, the way Idescribe it is if you've seen
the movie School of Rock withJack Black.
It is a carbon copy of what I doevery day.

(02:21):
I basically just teach kids rockand roll music all day.
It's pretty awesome.
That's essentially been a partof my life for the past 40 years
now.
And if I'm not teaching, I'mplaying D&D and I'm playing
Magic the Gathering.
Heck yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (02:37):
That's kind of

SPEAKER_02 (02:37):
it.

SPEAKER_04 (02:38):
Speaking of magic, it's very topical right now.
I literally just went through onArchidekt and uploaded all my
stuff before we got on herebecause I usually try to keep my
decks up to date, but I got alittle behind.
I was like two entire decksbehind.
But I loved the Final Fantasydrop.
I've been having a great timewith it.
I made a whole Cloud deck.
I made a whole Noctis deck.
I crushed with the Noctis deckat a store near me like last

(03:01):
week.
But what have you been doingwith that lately?
Because I know your experiencewith it is a lot more than mine.
You've been playing for yearsand years more than me.
So I want to know what youactually do when you play Magic
now.

SPEAKER_02 (03:14):
So, yeah, I'll just be the first to admit it.
I'm a hater in the Magiccommunity, but I like to say I'm
a good hater.
I'm not like a, you know, I'mnot a meanie.
You're talking about UniversesBeyond?
I'm talking about universesbeyond.
That includes the Final Fantasysets, the Doctor Who sets,

(03:37):
anything that is like an alreadyexisting IP.
If it is turning into a magiccard, me personally, I'm just...
I'm not...
I'm not for it.
That being said, what I dorecognize is that it will
continue the game to not die.
And that is one thing that itwas...

(03:58):
starting to turn into the gamewas slowly like you know going
away in popularity and now withthis big resurgence of oh my
gosh we have cloud oh my gosh wehave sonic the hedgehog it's a
little out there for me i'll behonest i know no i know but but

(04:19):
i guess i've i i'm happy i'vegot my two decks in fact i just
i got a promo yesterday and of anew legendary that I've never
gotten before, and I starteddoing some brewing this morning,
and I might make a third deck.
Because you said you're down totwo now, right?
Yeah, yeah.

(04:40):
So my issue is the decks that Imake, I like specific play
styles, and I've tried almostevery play style that there ever
really can be, and I just don'thave fun with it.
like I do have it with my othertwo decks.
So I've got my two decks.
So I'm cool with just playingthose.

(05:03):
And if everyone wants to playtheir, you know, Final Fantasy,
Sonic the Hedgehog, Rick Grimes,you know, have contact.
Great.
Awesome.
But yeah, but again, I hold thatopinion to myself just because,
again, I do not care what youplay as long as we're playing

(05:23):
Magic the Gathering.
I just...
I came into the game loving themedieval fantasy aspect of it,
which is really what drew me toD&D, was this idea of these
really cool artworks and this, Idon't know, a game that I kind
of understood.

SPEAKER_04 (05:40):
Right, and like say for the Forgotten Realms set and
the Baldur's Gate set, it makestotal sense, right?
Because it's fully fantasy, it'sWizards of the Coast, all of
that.
Makes sense, it feelsin-universe.
I agree with a lot of theUniverses Beyond stuff.
Like, I'm not going to playSpider-Man, I'm going to be
honest.
You know, I love Spider-Man, Ilove Marvel.
This set is already like asexpensive as the Final Fantasy

(06:01):
one when it comes out.
And as well as a lot of themechanics in it are really cool,
make a lot of sense.
But I'm like, I really don'twant...
to have Venom hopping outagainst my wizard.
Yeah.
I mean, and that's not out ofplace in the Marvel Universe,
right?
You know, Doctor Strange versusthese villains, but I'm not a
big fan of all of that.

(06:22):
But at the same time, a lot ofthe in-universe sets that have
been coming out, too, I haven'tbeen a fan of.
I like some of the cards inAether Drift.
Lute the Pathfinder, big fan ofhim as a commander.
But at the same time, not reallyinto...
Not really into the theming ofAether Drift altogether.
Had a good time with Tarkir andthen this, the space one, Edge

(06:43):
of Eternities that's coming out.
I'm like a little bit iffy on.
I mean, I think sci-fi, verycool altogether.
And the cards mechanics, verycool.
I'm just a little magicked out.
I just came back from Magic Conwith my wife and one of my
friends and one of my otherfriends.
And that was so much fun.
So yeah.
Yeah, I'm kind of magicked out.

(07:04):
I'm excited to play.
I have nine decks.
I have nine commander decks, andnormally I'm like, all right,
I'm going to take these fourwith me, and I end up playing
two of them.
See,

SPEAKER_02 (07:16):
that's

SPEAKER_03 (07:16):
my thing.

SPEAKER_02 (07:17):
That's my thing.
Whereas other people have allthese decks, and they'll play it
once every two months, and thenit will inevitably get taken
apart.
and it will be used to eitherupgrade another deck or to go
towards another new commanderthat kind of is like this other

(07:40):
commander that you had, but it'snew, so let's just move
everything.
So it's just this constant stateof just retrying new things.

SPEAKER_04 (07:49):
Yeah, and I know this is like a full-on D&D
podcast, but Magic is Wizards ofthe Coast, and that's been
pretty topical lately because Iknow Wizards is doing all of
this specifically because theywant to, like, Fortnite-ify...
magic and they're kind of tryingto as far as i'm hearing do the
same thing with dnd they want topartner with people to make like
setting books and stuff so thatway they can you know make more

(08:12):
money off of the propertybecause the one dnd or like dnd
2024 books they didn't do thatwell they didn't sell that well
why because it's kind of like 5e5e has a lot of stuff for it.
Most people who got into it, gotinto it with 5e and are used to
5e.

(08:32):
And that's what I'm used to.
I love playing 5e and I don'tanticipate ever buying the new
player's hand.
I got, look at all these books.
I got all these books back here.
Like our system works good.

SPEAKER_02 (08:46):
No, I agree.
So I also, I do have a libraryas well.
I do have the Player's Handbook,the new Player's Handbook, and I
think I have the new DMG.
I haven't read the new DMG yet,but the Player's Handbook is
just like...
My take on it...
Oh, sorry, you're going to seemy cat.
My cat is Vader.

(09:06):
Yeah.
Sorry.
You're fine, you're fine.
But one thing that I kept reallyjust seeing was this new D&D
2024 is just they took 5e.
And they were like, okay, wehave some small minor things

(09:27):
that we should have or want toput into D&D.
But the problem is, it's hard todo that with already established
5e stuff.
Right.
So, I don't know.
I just feel like it's a littlebit...
It's like 5e+, but...

SPEAKER_04 (09:47):
It is.
It really is.
And I guess if you're reallywanting to keep on the cutting
edge of D&D stuff, it makesperfect sense to go in and get
that.
Keep updating your system.
I do think a lot of the systemsin 2024 are an improvement on
the 5e systems.
But with our group, who's beenplaying for, what, six, seven

(10:09):
years together, longer than thatmaybe, we've been playing for
this long together.
I'm personally not interested inreading a whole nother book and
being like, okay, everybody,we're doing what we were doing
exactly, but changing these fivethings.
And I need everybody to spend ahundred dollars to do it.
Like,

SPEAKER_02 (10:27):
yeah, go ahead.
So I, I, I also DM with my, mycoworkers at the school.
And one of the first things Ijust, I told them, cause this
was, this was right when 2024was like coming out.
I was like, okay, Whatever yousee, just do not read into

(10:49):
anything that just has the 2024or 1 D&D.
I was like, just look at 5E.
It's just, it's going to beconfusing.
I haven't even gone through itall, but it's now, you're going
to see that it's a new, it's thenew standard of D&D.
I'm like, we, the great thingabout D&D and the great thing

(11:10):
about this great game is thatyou can make it up as you go and
you can set the rules yourself.
So it's like, okay, we're usingour, we're using our already
established years worth ofsource material.
We're good with just this.

SPEAKER_04 (11:25):
Or like, for instance, some of the stuff,
like for instance, in the spelljammer setting, when you said
make up the rules as you go,when Zach was like, Hey, are we
going to do the whole likegravity plane shifting thing
when we get in like range ofanother celestial body?
And I was like, no, no, I waslike, no, we're not.
You're not going to fly next toa ship and then everybody's

(11:45):
falling into space.
I'm not going to sit here andthink about how that science
works.
We're going to say you have agravity field and they have a
gravity field.
And in the middle, it swaps.
And that way you can manipulateit how you feel.
Like Mario Galaxy.
That's how this is going towork.
Exactly.
So, yeah, not a huge fan of...

(12:06):
of how Wizards has been doingeverything.
It feels very much like they'retrying to cash grab everything.
And I understand that in thetrading card space, like we just
talked about, because you can doit.
Everyone's going to buy thecards.
I've been lucky enough to pullcards that are expensive enough
that I can trade for the ones Iwant.
Like I was able to trade areally nice unit card for a
lightning army of one card forlike, and to pay an extra

(12:29):
dollar.
And I was like, this is good.
It's like equivalent exchangehere.
So luckily in that space, I can,if I just want a card or two, I
can do that.
In the D&D space, I'm beingexpected to spend the price that
I could pay for a full pricegame for these books that I read
one fourth of.
And then the rest I make up as Igo.
That's why I actually wanted tobring up with you how you feel
about like all the critical roledagger heart stuff.

(12:51):
I haven't gotten to talk toanybody about it.
Not necessarily for us, like,you know, switching in our play
group, just how you feel aboutit as

SPEAKER_02 (12:59):
like a whole.
So I'm going to be honest withyou.
I don't want to sound like oldfashioned.
I'm very like Wizards of the, ifit is, it needs to be Wizards of
the Coast sanctioned sources.
Yeah.
So I personally have not lookedinto any of the Critical Role
stuff.
When it comes to like stuff likethat, in terms of like consuming

(13:20):
D&D content, I learned early onthat I try like watching
Critical Role.
Because everyone's like, oh mygosh, you play D&D?
Watch Critical Role.
I'm like, that's great, right?
And then it just...
I would always be watching andthen I would always say to
myself, I want to be in thiscampaign.

(13:41):
I want to be...
I need to be a part of it.
And I'm like, it made itdifficult to watch because I'm
like, oh my gosh, all thesedecisions.
I'm like RPing myself, yellingat my TV and it's just...
So I haven't personally giventhat any look.
I might.
I might.

(14:01):
It's always good to just see andtry out new things.
And

SPEAKER_04 (14:07):
one of the things I wanted to mention on it is
Daggerheart as a system is basedaround mostly theater.
If you're thinking aboutDaggerheart, it's two D12s for
the players, right?
You roll it.
You have one die that's a baddie.
You have one die that's a gooddie.
I'm going to dumb it down a lotbecause I haven't read all the
mechanics.
One die is a good die.
One die is a bad die.
you roll it, if you roll higheron the bad die, you add them

(14:28):
together, see if you succeed thecheck in a bad way or a good
way, and then you roll higher onthe good die, good things
happen, and see if you succeedthe check with the numbers
adding together.
It's a little more complicatedthan the way I just explained
it, but it's a little moresimple as far as dice rolling
and mechanics goes, But there'sa lot of character building

(14:50):
mechanics that are really cooland world building mechanics
that kind of make it like acollaborative effort and less
like all the stuff on the DM tothrow everything together and
then jump into this hugecampaign.
There's a little more, I want tosay it's a little more share the
love as far as the story goes.
And like spotlight mechanics asfar as like, hey, this person is

(15:12):
the spotlight right now.
Let them have their moment.
Move on to the next person.
This person's on the spotlightright now.
So it seems cool.
I would like to try it with likea little short, like a one off
or like maybe a little three offor something like that.
Try it out.
See if we like it.
But I still anticipate doing 5Efor the foreseeable future.
Yeah.
Just because it's comfortable.
It's comfortable.

(15:32):
It's easy.
We all know what to call at alltimes.
When we have a consistent playgroup like this, I feel like
that's the way you kind of haveto bake it in is like, this is
what we're used to.
It's kind of like if you playCommander, right?
With a group of four every week.
Hey, these are our house rules.
And when we all sit down, we allknow 5e really quick.
I can make a character in a fewminutes that's going to fit our
campaign.

(15:53):
I could sit there and quickly belike, okay, I'll play this
class, this subclass, this willbe his name, he's got a
backstory kind of based aroundthis area, and then if I need
to, I can make up the rest onthe spot.
Exactly.
The hardest part will be like,okay, I need to make sure my
voice is different than my othervoice that I did.
So yeah, I just wanted to getlike a little temp check on you

(16:14):
for that, see if you knewanything about it, because
Dagger Arc seems like a reallycool system, especially if
you're just trying to mostly dostorytelling, but...
lighter on combat and stuff, butif you like tactical combat,
which I think everybody at ourtable does, going into combat,
thinking about spacing andexactly where you're going to
aim the spell and making sureyou're positioned in exactly the

(16:36):
right place, I think all of usreally like that Fire Emblem
style combat that we're doing.
Because I know I do.
I really enjoy also having ourstorytelling, our RP, and our
video game section where it'slike, this four hours we are
just...
killing

SPEAKER_02 (16:52):
yeah exactly i will say over the years i don't know
retaining five like just likethe knowledge of dnd has gotten
a lot quicker like i will saythere was like a period of time
like maybe three years ago wherei would spend an entire day
making a character or like drewstill does that yeah exactly and

(17:16):
and there's something thereagain there's still days where
i'm like oh, Christ, I do nothave a character.
And I'm like, oh, what do I do?
And then I'm just like, okay.
And then I go to think, and thensomething comes up, and I'm
like, okay, I guess we're goingwith it.
And then I trust myself.
And then I always trust that mygroup will feed off of it.

(17:36):
In fact, that's why I think thecampaign is going so good, is
because unironically, you guysare doing everything that I have
hoped you guys were doing.
Right.
And it's just been paying offvery well.
And once again, my characterlost their arm.

SPEAKER_04 (17:55):
So...
That did happen.
That did happen.
Unfortunately.
I mean, we can go into talkingabout you DMing a little bit.
Because, well, first I want togo back to when you were
playing, right?
Because I was with you for yourfirst session of D&D as the DM.
And then all the way up untilnow, where you're DMing me.
Which, before this, I did nothave that much fun playing.

(18:16):
Like, playing, I mean.
I had fun DMing.
DMing was all I really liked todo because I enjoyed telling the
story, reacting to you guys,kind of being in charge of
entertainment for the night,right?
Because that's really what itis.
You as the DM throw the party.
And so I was like, before, Ireally enjoyed just being the
person who threw the party everytime.

(18:37):
Like, hey, we're playing it thistime.
I'm running it.
I'm hosting.
Prepare these couple of things.
And, you know, for Descent intoAvernus, Storm King's Thunder,
and now me doing Spelljammer inour off time, like, That's what
I like to do.
But now, this is the first timein a while that I've enjoyed
playing my character.
I'm like, man, I'm ready for thenext session.

(18:59):
Because I enjoyed when Zach ranCurse of Strahd, of course.
I enjoyed playing in thosegames, but I always preferred
DMing.
But I actually enjoy now sittingdown for the game and being
like, I'm hands off.
I just get to have the storytold to me.
And I show up and react asGenesis, my cleric.
So props to you because I'm verymuch enjoying the game so far.

(19:21):
Thank you.
So my question is, what was yourfirst experience as a player and
how did that lead to you wantingto DM?

SPEAKER_02 (19:32):
Awesome.
Yeah, so I guess my firstexperience as a player, I
remember it vividly because Iremember you just looking at me
and you were like, absolutelynot.
Why would you?
No.
I don't remember what happened.
No, so this was Storm King'sThunder.
It might have been, like, thesecond session.

(19:52):
And we had just got intoNightstone.
Okay.
And we discovered Eknon's...
It was father or mother who was,like, smashed.
But we found the other mother orfather equivalent.

SPEAKER_04 (20:08):
Yeah, so his mom was alive.
His dad had died in the attack.

SPEAKER_02 (20:12):
There we go.
And so...
I texted one of the other partymembers.
I forgot who it was at the time.
But I was like, wouldn't it bereally funny if my character,
Daedalus, just killed Eknon'smom?
Yeah, okay, I remember this.
And so I was like, that soundslike a great idea.
I was like, this is D&D.

(20:33):
I can do whatever I want.
Let's just kill somebody.
And so I was like, Seth, I havea question.
And you're like, yeah, what'sup?
I'm like...
All right.
So I can't say it out loudbecause obviously Drew, Eknon's
character is like sitting rightnext to me.
So I'm like, I show him the textand he just, and again, he looks
at me and he's like, no,absolutely not.

SPEAKER_04 (20:57):
Because yeah, I think, I think when you were
new, it was more like, we'rejust sitting down to have fun,
right?
Let's be funny.
Let's do something chaotic.
And you know, At the time, I hadalready DMed a 13 session camp,
11 to 13 session, somewhere inthere, campaign for a different
group.
So I knew the basic do's and donots of a story.

(21:20):
And so I was like, I rarely sayno, right?
Like you ask me anything, you'relike, hey, I'm making a
character.
I want to make this creativeitem.
Can I do it?
Very rarely am I going to sayno.
That was definitely one of thetimes where I was like, no,
you'll make Eknon hate you.
And then you'll get you'll haveto get kicked out and make a new
character.
And then we're not going toenjoy playing because we're

(21:41):
going to think you're going todo it again.

SPEAKER_02 (21:42):
Yeah, no, I think so.
I want to say for like the firsthalf of Storm King's Thunder, it
was really a lot of me trulyjust trying to figure out how to
play the game.
And it would always just be likethe I remember the thing we
would always joke about be like,hey, Patrick, check your

(22:02):
character sheet for a second.
Oh, wait, you've had thisability this entire time, and
you haven't been using it.
Like, I was...
Daedalus was a War Mage, and hewas the Arcane Reflection, or...
Yeah, it was like, you get plustwo AC as a

SPEAKER_04 (22:16):
reaction when something's coming at

SPEAKER_02 (22:18):
you.
Yeah.
Never used that.
I remember that, too.
I also remember I never onceapplied the proficiency bonus to
the abilities.
Oh, my God, yeah.
So, like...
For example, my Arcana was like,I want to say a plus two at
level 15.
I think at one point we were atthat level.

(22:40):
Or like 13.
So it wasn't until the end ofStorm Kings going into Avernus
where I kind of had that shiftwhere I was like, okay, I think
I'm kind of understanding it.
Now I kind of need to take it alittle bit serious.
And then we got into Avernus.
Now Avernus, I like to say thatI had a plan for Avernus, and

(23:04):
the plan just absolutely failed.
And just right off the rip.
Describe your plan.
Yeah, of course.
So my character in this campaignwas Varys.
Like Game of Thrones.
Game of Thrones, specifically,because at that point, I had
just finished the series for thefirst time.

(23:26):
Yeah.
And I thought he was like thecoolest character.
So I was like, all right, that'sit.
I had

SPEAKER_04 (23:29):
also just finished Game of Thrones.
And you said, my character'sname is Varys.
And I was like, oh, so Game ofThrones.
But you were a lizard folk.

SPEAKER_02 (23:37):
I was a lizard folk.
And I was a way of mercy monk.
Very merciful.
Very merciful monk.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, don't worry.
He heals all the

SPEAKER_04 (23:47):
time.
Helping everyone out.

SPEAKER_02 (23:51):
Yeah, so I want to say for...
We did that campaign for, I wantto say, like two and a half
years,

SPEAKER_00 (23:58):
right?

SPEAKER_02 (23:58):
Yeah, it was almost three years, I think.
It was

SPEAKER_04 (24:01):
89

SPEAKER_02 (24:02):
sessions over the course of like three years.
89 sessions.
Okay, so over 89 sessions.
So with the way of Mercy Monk,their big thing is that they can
use their ki points to heal.
And cure disease.
And cure disease.
In those 89 sessions, I mighthave done it, I want to say,

(24:27):
five times on myself only.
And there could be situationswhere, like, there would be
party members who were at, like,two health.
They were...
Plenty.
Disease.
Plenty of health.
They were...
Yeah, or just, like, they werejust...
They were like, hey, let'squickly heal.
Let's...
Hey, Varys...

(24:48):
Since monks get their ki backafter a short rest, why don't
you dump your ki into healing?
Varus would go, nah, nah, let'snot do that.
And so it got to about thehalfway point in Avernus where I
think the switch finally clickedon and I was like, oh, I've been
playing this game incorrectlythis entire time.

(25:08):
And so then it was, okay, wellnow I kind of need to play Varus
a little bit better.
So then I tried multiclassingwith Varus and that Also didn't
work out that well.
But in the end, it was a goodcharacter.
I think his ending was amazing.
She sailed off with CaptainBenny out to sea to find

(25:29):
treasure and whatnot.

SPEAKER_04 (25:31):
Yeah, I think Varys' whole thing at the beginning was
like, hey, I gotta get revengeon these people, and then he,
like, works on doing that, andthen is like, oh, well, I mean,
I know there are higher-ups inthe city, but I'm gonna try to
take over their villa and becomea higher-up in the city, and
then it was very clear, like,they were too high up to take
over.
And then you recruited somepirates, you sent them out to

(25:52):
find stuff for you, we did awhole one-off around that, come
back, and then...
finish out Descent into Avernusvery I loved Varys I thought he
was a great character but yesyou're correct it was very I
could tell you had a plan atfirst where you're like you
named him Varys you wanted tohave all the secrets and stuff
right and then none of thatstuff came up

SPEAKER_02 (26:11):
no and and to be fair I think it was me not
writing a good backstory and itwas still I was still thinking I
had the wrong mindset with D&Dand I was like I was thinking
like oh, this is just going tobe like an anime.
I'm just going to be like anime,and we're going to be good.
I'm going to roll some dice,maybe do a weird voice, and I'll
be good.

SPEAKER_04 (26:31):
Well, and to be fair, I do tend to describe a
lot of things very anime-likewhen we play our games.
So we do go there pretty often.

SPEAKER_02 (26:39):
Oh, of course, but it was just this idea of, you
see animes, and you see allthese crazy fight scenes, you
see these epic speeches.
And just like this, just reallyjust like a crazy experience.
And you're like, I want to dothat.
And then it's, it's like, youknow, over time you start
realizing it's like, okay,let's, let's start benefiting

(27:01):
the story.
Let's start, let's make like agood character that can like
benefit things like the partyor, you know, maybe like leaning
more into like a backstory.
So thankfully you bought backspell jammer because the
backstory that I have for thatcampaign is like, Very cool.
Yeah.

(27:22):
I believe he is a warlock, and Ibelieve he's an animal.
I'm using the Tome of Heroessourcebook.

SPEAKER_04 (27:32):
So I use a lot of third-party stuff, just for
anybody listening.
I use a lot of third-partystuff.
I approve Kobold Press classes,which includes the Tome of
Heroes and stuff like that.
If you show it to me and you'relike, I really want to play
this, and I read over it, and Igo, it doesn't seem broken, then
I'll usually allow it at thetable.
especially when it comes tomagic items and stuff.
Classes can be a little iffy,but Tome of Heroes has a lot of

(27:53):
these smoke powder classes andstuff like that.
So I was like, I really want toinclude guns in space, so I'm
going to do that.
So I allowed those subclasses tobe used.
And I think it's really fun sofar.
Yeah.
Yeah, as far as your newcharacter, you were talking
about the backstory andeverything.

SPEAKER_02 (28:11):
Yeah, so I put myself on the spot here trying
to remember a backstory.
So I do know that he is ananimal patron warlock.
And the one thing that I wantedto really encapsulate was I
wanted to have like a Minsc andBoo type character, but not

(28:32):
obviously Minsc and Boo.
So what I what I created was Icreated this like gentleman like
dude.
They're like like a very likespiffy scholar man.
And eventually, I will get alittle space hamster companion
that will also be like a spiffylad as well.
And we're kind of, I believewe're researchers, and I believe

(28:54):
we are just documenting eventsin space, I want to say.
And it's like, I believe mymotivation was...
I was just going to document thevoyage, I want to say.
I

SPEAKER_04 (29:06):
mean, you guys are...
You're on enough of a voyageright now.
You're in uncharted territoryfor the Rock of Brawl.
So it's good to have yourcharacters there for them.
So, yeah, no.
As a player, I've had a verypleasant experience having you
around.
I always thought it was funnyhow much chaos you and Sean both
brought to the table becausehaving both of you there all the

(29:28):
time would make a lot of chaoshappen.
While I find that...
Drew and Zach tend to buildheavier relationships, make
everybody at the table feelsomething.
You and Sean always would bringabout, you would always go
somewhere that I never picturedthe session going, and it would
always make it better than whatI had pictured in my head.

(29:49):
So that was always fun.
I wanted to bring up the onejoke we always used to make
every time something would comeup, and you wouldn't know what
it was, and we'd be like, don'tworry, guys, he's new.
He's new.
He's never played before.
He's new.
This is his first session.

SPEAKER_02 (30:03):
Yeah, we were like three years into, we were like
year two into Avernus.
We had played Storm King'sThunder and it's like, Patrick,
you can't cast a cantrip afteryou've casted hate.
Guys, sorry.
I'm very new.
I haven't done it before.
The big one in Storm King'sThunder was casting Dimension

(30:26):
Door and then wanting toFirebolt after.
Yeah.
I would like consistently...
It works in Baldur's Gate, to befair.
It does.
It does.
Another thing that I alwayswould do was I would dimension
door maybe 30 feet straightacross.
Yeah, that would happen.

(30:46):
That would happen a lot.
I don't know.
I just think as sort of like asthe years go by, I kind of
just...
I learned a lot from you guysand I kind of just...
I wanted to...
like really take this gameseriously.
So I just, just dove in.
Yeah.
I just wanted, I just consumedeverything.
And I was like, I'm going toknow how to play this game

(31:09):
because I was like, I am notgoing to be the hindrance in the
party.
And so I don't know.
I, I, I now I'm like, you know,spent hundreds of bucks on books
and, you know, dice andeverything.
But I, I love this game and I,I, I, It's awesome.
Anytime anyone mentions D&D atthe school, I'm always like, do

(31:33):
it.
And they're always like,Patrick, how are you able to
play D&D?
I'm like, well, listen.
I'm like, I tell everyone, thehardest thing to play about
playing D&D is finding a groupand then a time that works for
everybody.
Because I'm like, listen, I'vegot a friend who's in the army
and I've got a friend who's inEMT.
I was like, and somehow we makethat work?

(31:54):
I'm like...
I'm like, listen, there are sometimes where we'll miss like a
month, but we'll come back.
And it's like, we never, wenever missed that time.

SPEAKER_04 (32:04):
Yeah.
And it's, it's never likewherever, like we're never close
to canceling a campaign, right?
Like I was on a hiatus for overa year, like almost a year and a
half, or like, I didn't come toanything.
And, you know, I would show upfor a one-off every now and then
I would run something every nowand then, but like, I was gone
for the better part of two yearsalmost.
And yet I jumped back in andit's like, I was never gone.

(32:25):
So, and I expect that it willhappen to someone else too.
Like maybe Sean will start hiswhole EMT thing and get really
busy and not be able to make itfor a while.
And he'll be able to jump backin like it's nothing.
Maybe Zach will move all the wayacross the country and something
will come up and he'll have totake a backseat for a while.
I expect that those things aregoing to happen to everybody.
You know, I'm glad that, youknow, I know everybody was

(32:47):
skeptical when I came back,right?
Like, I don't know if he'sreally going to be able to make
time or anything for it.

SPEAKER_02 (32:52):
There was definitely...
There was a period of maybe twoor three weeks where I think you
were texting more consistently.
Because there were times wherewe would get a singular text
once a month.
Yeah.
But then the text startedturning into three a week.

(33:12):
And then nearly daily, we'relike, okay, is he in?
Because at this point, we werein our Theros campaign that Sean
had ran during this kind ofperiod where you were gone.

UNKNOWN (33:24):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (33:25):
And we all were like, wait, so is Seth going to
join Theros?
Like, we all were convinced thatyou were going to join Theros.

SPEAKER_04 (33:31):
I was pretty close, too.
And then it turned out I stillwas very stressed out and ready
to jump off a building.
I was like, I was still sostressed that I was like, I
don't think I can.
I don't think I can join in on aD&D campaign right now.
I'm too much.
Because it did become, when Iwas in training, like,
getting...
I needed to not be on base onthe weekends.

(33:53):
Like I needed to leave.
I needed to not be here becauseI needed to be somewhere else.
And so I would go, that's when Igot into Magic, right?
I went and I went and I playedMagic at a store off base.
Or I would go, we would driveall the way to Tucson when I was
in Arizona and go to go playMagic at the malls there.
Zach came out for a businessthing one time and we went out

(34:14):
to a store there and I taughtZach how to play Magic.
So that became a big hobby whileI was there.
Some days I would just be like,I would be in my room when you
guys were playing, but I'd belike, I can't speak to anybody.
I can't do it.
And so I would sit there on mySteam Deck or something and I
would just play.
And then at the same time, youknow, I'm a married man now.
I did find that there were timeswhen I was not stressed and I

(34:36):
was free that I was like, okay,when we weren't married yet and
stuff, or even when we were,where I'd be like, I need to
call and talk to my wife today.
so that way we can make sure ourrelationship is still solid.
And that was something I toldZach when I was texting him.
I was like, dude, I have timetoday to play, but I'd rather
spend it with her because wewere long distance for over a

(34:59):
year.
A year and one day.
We were long distance.
Wow.
So...
Yeah, those things ended uptaking precedent over D&D, but
then once I got here and welived together and everything,
it turned out like, hey, I canspare four or five hours once a
week.
And it ended up being a lotbetter because I was genuinely

(35:19):
like, am I not going to be ableto play D&D ever again?
And luckily it turned into mebeing able to play with this
campaign.
And now I'm comfortable to thepoint where I'm like, I can
start the podcast up.
I can probably DM again,hopefully, whenever...
whenever we get there.
But okay, one big thing for mewith you is I wanted to ask
where your DMing journey startedbecause it didn't start with us.

SPEAKER_02 (35:44):
So no, it did not.
So it originally started aroundlike two and a half years ago
when my coworkers just all putme in a group chat and they were
like, hey, we heard you playD&D.
We all decided preemptively wewant to play D&D.
Can you teach us?

(36:04):
And at this time, I was...
I had always...
I had this...
I had this campaign that I hadbeen writing for a while since
the end of Storm King's Thunder.
And it was essentially afollow-up to where I ended

(36:25):
Daleth's story.
And I had always...
And I had just been writingthat.
I had just been, you know,adding to it every now and then,
just...
slowly cultivating it over time.
And when they asked me, my firstthought was, it's like, do I, I
was like, okay.
It's like, do I think about it?
I'm like, okay.
So I have never DM'd.

(36:48):
The story isn't technicallydone, but what I have could, you
know, cover a big portion.
And these are all like a hundredpercent new players who are I
know for a fact, do not treat itwith the same level as my other
group.
So I'm like, I'm like, okay,okay.

(37:10):
I'm like, I'm like, yeah, sure.
I'm like, yes.
So I, so we go in, I teach themall.
This is a campaign of sevenpeople, which is a lot too many,
too many.
That's not a lot.
It's not an understanding.
It's too many.
I've, I've done it before.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It was very hard.
But the big thing that, I didwith them is I really had to

(37:37):
dumb down a lot of the rulesbecause I was also, that was
what I called my learningcampaign because I had always
wanted to DM something with youguys.
I just was like, I know thecaliber of you, Zach and Sean
and Drew.
And I was like, yeah, I at leastwant to, you know, know what I'm

(37:57):
doing so that I'm not likestumbling every like five
seconds going like, Maybe dothis or maybe do that.

SPEAKER_04 (38:05):
So...
When you say caliber, what wereyou thinking at the time?
As far as...
You felt like you had to live upto something?
Is that what you mean?

SPEAKER_02 (38:14):
No, so it was...
I had seen...
I had been in part of twocampaigns, dozens of one-offs,
and to my magic, they were allamazing.
And I was like...
Well, I really want to make surethat my thing is amazing.
So I was like, I kind of wantedto test drive it first to kind

(38:38):
of see how I did.
And then if it went well, I wasgoing to bring it forward to you
guys, essentially.
It was mainly, do I know therules of DMing?
It was mainly that.
So I wouldn't have to always golike, hey guys, what does this
mean?
Hey guys, what does this mean?

(38:59):
So, so I did that campaign withthem.
We did, it took about two yearsto finish.
It was a majority, a heavy RPbased campaign.
And it really, the one thingthat I really wanted to, that
they were kind of not a big fan,big, they were not really vibing

(39:21):
with was like RPing and, Andlike pushing like a story or
doing things like, like, let'ssay a character has a question
for another character.
They would ask me and I would goask them in character.
I'm like, if you have thequestion, I don't have the
answer.

(39:41):
What if they have the answer?
Maybe their character could roleplay it.
And then they're like, oh yeah,yeah.
And then it's like very like,it's very, you know, like, hey,
where are you from?
I'm from the mountains.
Okay, bye.
And then it's like...
That's wild.
And then that's all.
And it's like there's so manylayers.

(40:03):
There was...
So there was this big storymoment that they just completely
skipped over because they didnot want to walk down a hallway.

SPEAKER_04 (40:17):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (40:18):
They essentially...
I basically was like, all right,guys...
You see this hallway before you.
It just leads down and they havean ascending stairwell.
And basically at the top of thestairwell was going to be this
like essentially like a controlroom that had a bunch of like
levers that would open a bunchof doors.

(40:38):
And they essentially were like,no, we kind of want to just
leave this spot and we justnever want to come back here.
Yeah, I'm not really feelingthis place anymore.
Yeah.
And they did a lot of that.
It was a lot of they liked it.
Essentially, if I had like apresented an idea, they were
like, oh, we are going leftfield with it all the way.

(41:01):
And one thing I will say that totheir credit, it really helped
force me to act on my feet.
Because genuinely, I would notknow what they would think of.
But as a DM, I also wanted to belike, I also don't like saying
no.
My thing is, if you can justifyit to me, if you can justify it,

(41:27):
cool.

SPEAKER_04 (41:27):
I mean, that's exactly how I treat it too.
If it makes logical sense, I'llgive an example.
One time, our friend Lanky Eric,he once told me he was going to
turn into a cat and that he wasgoing to jump up to a window.
And I said, the window's 15 feetup.
And he goes, cats can jumpreally high.

UNKNOWN (41:46):
Really high.

SPEAKER_04 (41:46):
And I said, cats can't jump 15 feet.
He goes, cats can jump from likethe ground on top of a fridge.
And I said, fridge isn't 15 feethigh.
And so I looked, he, and helooks up and shows me a video of
a cat jumping on top of afridge.
And I go, like Eric, the fridge,I was like average height of
fridge, six feet.
And I was like, you can't jumpup to a 15 foot window.

(42:07):
If you make a really good check,like athletics check, I'll say
that you can run up and findenough like claw holds to make
it up there, but you're notverting.
15 feet, and he rolled a nat 1,and I went, you don't make it to
the

SPEAKER_02 (42:21):
window.
Yeah, seeing that, I haveanother example.
So when we would do combat, theywere of the belief of, if I
slashed with a sword, a bodypart should come off.
Yeah, so, like, for example,anytime someone was wielding a
sword...

(42:42):
without hesitation, I'm going toattack his neck to cut off his
head.
And I would always say, you cantry to do that.
I'll tell him, just point blank,you need a nat 20.
I was like, if you get a nat 20,that can happen.
Other than that, you won't beable to cut the head off.

(43:02):
And it would be head, arm, leg,ear, literally anything.
There was like...
but it's sword combat.
I'm like, yeah, right.
But it's like, but you don't get

SPEAKER_04 (43:15):
it.
Every time you hit with thesword, you don't direct hit
them.
Like you move, like this personmoves a little bit and it
slashes them and they get alittle Nick in their armor that
they're wearing.
Like even like sometimes you caneven count a hit, like a
slashing damage hits theirleather and breaks into it and
hits like the bludgeoning, likefrom the leather hitting their
arm does damage, but maybe theydon't even go all the way

(43:35):
through the leather.

SPEAKER_02 (43:36):
Exactly.

UNKNOWN (43:37):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (43:38):
So there was a lot of that stuff too.
But again, it would always be,okay, you have to make the roll.
Or they would ask something likea weird request.
I'd be like, you can.
I have a number in my head.
Let's see if you can get thatnumber.
And then they would roll and Iwould go, unfortunately, that

(44:00):
was not the number.
And then they're like, oh, dangit.
And then they'd think ofsomething else.
And then they just it just getstotally the tone changes.
Everything changes off of thatone reaction.
So I was very happy.
And I was very determined thatonce I finished that campaign, I

(44:23):
was like, OK.
Clearly, I don't want to do thisDayleth follow up campaign just
because I was like, I just.
Another time.

SPEAKER_04 (44:34):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (44:35):
Another time.
So then I was like, okay, Ithink I can trust myself enough
to where I can maybe putsomething together.
And I think it could be goodwith our group.
And so then that's when Istarted thinking about this
current campaign.

SPEAKER_04 (44:51):
And where did you get the basis?
Because so we canonically say,you know, it all takes place in
the same forgotten realms, butour forgotten realms, because so
much has happened in it.
And so you made up a city, youmade up this whole little area,
which is very wonderful.
I like living in it.
Where did you get all the ideasfrom?
And give us a little rundown

SPEAKER_02 (45:11):
of what it's all about.
Yeah, of course.
So the working title for thecampaign is called The Lost
Citadel.
I saw a sourcebook at a gamestore, and I kind of like the
name, The Lost Citadel.
So the campaign has nomentioning of a citadel.
In fact, I don't think the HordeCitadel did not come up in the

(45:32):
campaign.
But basically, so the firstthing I wanted to decide was, do
I want to do, like, alarge-scale campaign, or do I
want to, like, short-scale itand, like, kind of make
everything more like a Curse ofStrahd feel versus, like, a
Storm King Thunder feel where wewere going to, like, city, city,

(45:53):
you know, realms upon realms.
And so...
Kind of like the first kind ofideas that I got.
So the idea, sort of the base ofthe story, you all are residents
of this mega city calledSindraluna.
And in this city, it is occupiedby predominantly followers of

(46:15):
the goddess Saluna, who is, herwhole deal is the moon.
So she's known as the moonmaiden.
And you slowly...
go on these small little quests,and eventually the party has
found a weird, magical purpleplant.

(46:37):
And they have been figuring outwhat the cause of this plant is,
and sort of what the plant does.
And...
I don't know, it's really...
Needless to say,

SPEAKER_04 (46:51):
from what I'm getting so far, being a player
in the campaign...
People are turning into zombiesfrom these plants.
Kind of sucks.
Happened to me.
Lost an arm because of itbecause I got a little too...
I can overpower this type deal.
And all of our characters areworshippers of Saluna.
And we're trying to get to thebottom of what the heck is this?

(47:11):
Where does it come from?
Who is this goddess that'strying to corrupt us?
And how do we fix it?
Yes.
And not only that, but there'san upper city and then there's
like an underground city calledAzure Alley that's also...
like just as big as the upperpart of the city and we spent a
majority of the campaign in thatunder city area yeah so far and
it's been awesome down therelike that's been that's been the

(47:34):
coolest part is since we gotunderground because i thought we
were going to walk in it wasgoing to be like the the under
mountain where we had to likefight every five seconds no we
walk in and it's like we'rewalking around we're talking to
high highfalutin individualswe're talking to characters from
our old campaigns that you, so Iknow one of your big things for
the campaign was your oldcharacters all like have

(47:57):
something to do with this place.

SPEAKER_03 (47:59):
Yeah.
And so they

SPEAKER_04 (48:00):
keep circling back around where I'm like, we know
this person, we do know thisperson.
Oh my God, how did he get here?
Why did he get here?
And then it'll like slowly getrevealed to us.
And we're like, that's whythey're here.
That's what's going on.

SPEAKER_03 (48:11):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (48:13):
So I've really enjoyed that, having those
little Easter eggs dropped atus.
But then you also have yourthree factions that are
underneath in Azure Alley, whoalso, like, we have been a big
player in deciding who is inpower down here, which was also
a lot of fun.
And now we're about to wrap upthis first arc we're going into
where we're going back up to thetop to stop this, like, blight

(48:36):
from taking over the

SPEAKER_02 (48:37):
city.
Yes.
So to kind of just keepcontinuing on with...
with sort of how the city wasset up.
One thing that I wanted to dowas tell a story.
And it was just this story ofthis idea that not everything is

(48:58):
as it seems.
So right in the beginning of thecampaign, you're introduced to
Sindraluna.
It's a beautiful utopia forSaluna followers.
Predominantly, everyone therefollows Saluna.
And it's very nice.
Everything that you would everneed is in this city, so you
don't really need a lead.

(49:18):
So it's essentially a utopia.
And as they've gone through eachsession, they're kind of slowly
starting to learn that SindraLuna, at its start, has kind of
got some weird undertones to it.
In fact, Seth, you unfortunatelymissed the one-off, the Naeritha

(49:40):
one-off.

SPEAKER_04 (49:41):
Yes.

SPEAKER_02 (49:41):
That kind of detailed some backstory lore for
the construction of Syndra Luna.

SPEAKER_04 (49:47):
Yeah.
Which we'll delve into that,like, for our next session,
right?
I'll probably learn about whatactually happened there.
Yeah, and I thought a reallycool thing, since we're all
Seluna followers, was, like, mycharacter's a cleric of Seluna.
We all talk about her all thetime.
We're all, like...
very diehard worshipers yet atthe same time our characters as

(50:08):
opposed to a lot of the ones uptop are willing to help the
people who don't worship salunawhile the ones up top are very
much like uh there's word ofthis undercity kind of thing
where people are exiled to butnobody talks about it nobody
acknowledges it like thosepeople just don't belong up here
which has been a a big crazything for us where we're down

(50:28):
here, we're meeting people.
We're like, these people arejust like us.
Like these people are like, alot of them are good people.
And so that's, that's been a bigawakening where we're all like,
oh, it's for the moon made andit's for this, but we don't go
further into that.
We're just like, yep, that's whyit's happening.
So I'm excited to figure outwhat happens with that along the
way.
If anybody falls out of thereligion or if anybody like

(50:50):
changes how they feel aboutthese kinds of things.

SPEAKER_02 (50:53):
Oh, so we might, uh, tomorrow in our session.
Me and Drew have been texting.
If you remember, Omarion, theguy who was essentially after
Shaw, Drew's character, thisentire first arc of the
campaign, came up to Shaw andwas like, listen, I don't know

(51:17):
what I just saw, but Saluna isnot going to be...
You need more than just Saluna.
Right.
Use my power.
I have the power of Baal, thegod of murder.
You know, kill me, be a followerof Baal, and you can really take
out this ancient evil.
And so Drew is very worriedabout this.

(51:39):
But I've assured him, I'm like,listen, it's all good.
We're not murder hoboinganybody.
Everything will be revealed.
But actually, there's one thingthat I'm actually a little salty
about.
I was...
certain that someone wasn'tgoing to follow Saluna for this
exact moment.

(51:59):
It just so happened that Drewgot selected to be the
non-Saluna follower.

SPEAKER_04 (52:05):
It ended up being a meme of like, we're all Saluna
followers.
No one can change their mind.
We're all Saluna followers.
We've all decided...
So that was, it ended up goingthat way.
And I'm, I'm satisfied with howeverything's going so far.
Excited for where like the nextarcs that lead to, how do you
feel being the DM so far for ourgroup?

(52:29):
You know, like you said,everybody except you and Chase
have DM for the group so far.
Right.
So yeah, now it's only Chase whohasn't DM for the group.
So you coming in as the fifthperson, the fifth DM for our,
you know, six player group.
How do you feel?
So,

SPEAKER_02 (52:45):
I will say I do.
I think I have a groove now.
I was like maybe like the firstthree.
I was like I was like so alittle like a little shaky.
Now that I I know my plan.
I do my writing.
I do all my planning.
Like I have everything sort ofset ready to go so that I can

(53:08):
just go.
I can look and go.
All right, we're doing thistoday.
This is happening and I can doit.
The one thing that I will neverbe prepared for is when...
It was my first, like, oh-nomoment.
It was when you Zone of Truthedthe Veen way early into the

(53:28):
campaign.

SPEAKER_04 (53:29):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (53:30):
So, to give some context, this is, like, maybe
session three.

SPEAKER_04 (53:36):
Yeah, this was my second session playing Jean.

SPEAKER_02 (53:40):
Yes.
Yes.
And so, basically...
In Cinder Luna, there is theking, there is the archsage, and
then there is the guy, there'sthe archmage, and then there's
the guy who is sort of over themarketing district or sort of in
charge of all commerce.

(54:01):
That guy's name is Bavine.
And so the intended route forthis campaign was you guys were
not supposed to discover AzureAlley for like another maybe
five sessions.

UNKNOWN (54:15):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (54:15):
Like Baveen was not even the way to get to Azure
Alley.
In fact, you guys were supposed,the way that I had set, you guys
were going to help out a lot ofthe Cinderella folks and sort of
build a bond with them.
And then slowly you guys learnabout Azure Alley helping out
small, those like these likesmall businesses in Cinderella.

(54:36):
And then eventually one guy, oneshopkeep leads you to his
basement and then he gets you toAzure Alley.
But in session three, Jim waslike, hmm,

SPEAKER_04 (54:48):
you know what?
So I'll give my justification.
We, after a while, had foundthat this guy is suspicious in
some way.
Once we found out, we walkedinto a store where people were
robbing weapons, or likesmuggling weapons, and we saw
the symbol we were looking foron one of them, like of this
cult or sect of people from theunderground.

(55:11):
And so we were like, these arethe guys, let's go.
We go in, we talk to them,combat starts, we end up beating
a lot of them.
And we find Baveen there is oneof these guys.
And we're like, why are youhere, man?
What are you doing with theseguys?
One of our guys who has reallyhigh strength catches him.
And then I was like, or I thinkI instructed, I was like, grab

(55:33):
hold of him.
They grab him.
And then I zone of truth.
And I'm like, time tointerrogate, baby.
And I asked all the questions inthe book.
I'm basically like, all right,let's start from the top.
Who are you?
What happened?
Why are you here?
Who's in charge of this?
What is this?
Describe this to me.

(55:53):
What else do they know?
All the way down the list.
And luckily, Patrick playedalong with the whole thing.
He gave us all the information.
And right after that, we foundout how to get into Azure Alley
and got there way before we weresupposed to.

SPEAKER_02 (56:07):
Yeah, it...
it was in that moment where Iwas like, well, this is, this is
my one example of things goingawry.
And I was like, okay.
I was like, well, this doesn'treally affect anything.
I guess this just ups thetimeline a little bit.
I was like, all right, cool.
I guess, I guess we're going, Iguess we're doing it.

(56:27):
And so then I was like, and sothen it kind of, it made me feel
a little bit better where I waslike, I had this, all this
planned content that I willnever use now.
I'm like, I'm glad I had that,but I'm also glad that I had the
backup just in case.
But I have to say, I do like howthe events have transpired the

(56:48):
way they've transpired.
It feels a lot more natural thanthe direction I wanted to take
it.
Right.
So...

SPEAKER_04 (56:58):
Yeah, no, I'm...
I thought it was fun the way itended up going, and I think big
things is this was one of myfirst characters jumping back
in, right?
I made Gene, like, he's thisprodigy, right?
He...
He feels clerical magic.
He doesn't pray for it.
He doesn't, like, think about ittoo hard.
He's just like, no, I believe inSaluna.
I've never spoken to her.
I just have this ability throughmy faith to do these things, and

(57:21):
I don't think about it too hard.
So, like, he was always told todo all these studies and
practices of clerical magic, buthe never thought he had to
because it always just happened.
And so he's not very seriousabout that kind of stuff.
And so in these moments, youknow, his instincts come out.
He starts doing it.
He's like, all right, tell methe truth.
Boom, it happens.
And this is part of, like, wedescribed this in some episodes

(57:45):
earlier on in the podcast.
The two-person campaign Drew andI did with Zach, like, right at
the beginning of COVID.
We were all in Eberron, and wewere playing two Warforged
investigators.
And I was the main, like,investigator, Agent 99 of
Warforged.
And Zach had to deal with thatevery session where it's only

(58:06):
two of us.
So we are, the spotlight is onus all the time.
And we had like a Han Solo,Chewbacca relationship.
So he would like stumble acrossthings.
It would be like, oh my God, Ifound something.
And then Agent 99 is like, okay,no problem.
I figured it out.
You know, stuff like that.
And in those sessions, therewere so many times whenever we

(58:26):
would question someone for solong.
And Zach would, you could tellZach was like, I've given you
everything I know.
And this was another one ofthose times where I was like,
zone of truth is down.
You have to tell me everything.

SPEAKER_02 (58:41):
Yeah.
And honestly, I was like, Imean, that's what the spell
does.
I have to abide what the spelldoes.
And again, I think it's reallycool because I think it got you
a better understanding of howAzure Alley worked based on and
and and how it kind of workedwith cinderella

SPEAKER_03 (59:03):
yeah

SPEAKER_02 (59:03):
it kind of made the your your introduction to the uh
that guilds the weapons guildsuh the cackling glaive leader
gerard made it a little bit moresmoother i would say and then
just like with all the otherbackstory stuff that happened in
the underground it kind of justit made more sense with the flow

(59:23):
right i wanted to do things

SPEAKER_04 (59:25):
I think it worked out greatly and like as far as
for what I would say for Newnewer DMS or someone who's been
playing for a long time andwants to try it out for their
group like These types of thingswhere something comes up and
instead of being like I don'thave anything planned for that
No, you can't do that or liketrying to lie your way through

(59:46):
it I think that going with theflow like Patrick did and just
saying something and You know,even if in your head you can
justify, he really doesn't knowthat much, he just does this,
and changing your story a littlebit to make it fit, or like,
just go with the flow, roll withthe punches, because when a
player does something like that,like when I did that, I felt
like, I did it.
This was the whole purpose.

(01:00:07):
This is why I took this spell,right?
Like, this spell only has onepurpose, and it's exactly what
we're doing right here.
So, yeah, moments like that,roll with those punches.
Or...
You, Patrick, now that you'vebeen doing this, what, we're on
session 13 or 14?
I

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:28):
believe

SPEAKER_04 (01:00:28):
so.
Something like that?
Yeah.
So how are you feeling so far,and what do you think you do as
a DM that's, like, differentfrom what the rest of us have
done?
Because, you know, you've seen abunch of other DMs DM for you.
Yeah, of

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:45):
course.
So I think my biggest thing, andI...
I slowly realized that I,whenever I come up with an idea
or whenever I think ofsomething, it immediately gets
written down in my, and I havethis massive document just of
notes.
Yeah.

(01:01:05):
And what I kind of like withdoing with that, like I'll use
the backstories as an example,because those are probably like
the first iteration of it.
So when I got everyone'sbackstories, my first thing that
I really wanted to do was Iwanted to incorporate the
backstories within the campaign.
Because I don't know, I just...

(01:01:27):
I feel like that's just, again,it's just extra content that you
can just add to make yourcampaign so much...
You can just add more substanceand structure, just adding more
into that backstory.
And so...
It would always be, I would readlike a sentence.
I'll use Zach's character,Vonan, as an example.
So I think Zach's backstory readlike, he's like a bear totem,

(01:01:53):
Barb, and like a moon druid.
And he mentioned something abouthe utilized the bear as his way
of worshipping Saluna.
And just without hesitation, Ijust typed down Zach will become
a bear by the end of thiscampaign.

(01:02:15):
Or like.
Drew, for example, drew withDrew's backstory, I was like,
OK, so Drew seems kind of likethis, like good guy.
And it's like, OK, what wouldhappen if someone was trying to
just go after one person theentire time?

(01:02:37):
And so then I was like, okay,Drew is going to get messed with
by someone.
That's his backstory.
And then I parentheses go intodepth at a later time.
Yeah.
And kind of what I, what I, whatI do is, I don't know.
I'll think of just like a, likea vague statement.
And then I'll, I'll just takesome time and just, I'll just

(01:03:00):
continually build off of that.
I'll, I'll take my, I'll takejust like small influences and,
The big influence that I alwayswant to give credit to Sean for
is the use of gods.
So Sean did a Theros campaignwhen Seth was gone for that year
and a half, two years.

(01:03:21):
And I really fell in love withthe idea that the character
itself, if they followed a godin Theros, their personality...
Their whole demeanor, all theirmotivations are to please and
honor this God.
And so my thought was, okay,well, that's already a kind of a

(01:03:44):
cool idea.
What would happen if hundreds ofthousands of people all were
just really psyched about thisone singular God?
And then I was like, okay, well,then what about another God?
And so then I started thinkingabout other like, okay, Who does

(01:04:04):
like Saluna like align with whoare, who does she not align
with?
And then it really starts likethinking, then I can really
start to like delve into what Iwant to do.

SPEAKER_04 (01:04:15):
Hey, props to you for not immediately going to,
Oh, Saluna, we'll just make Charthe villain, you know?

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:21):
Yeah, no.
Yeah.
So, and that's another thingwhen it comes to, when it came
to like writing this campaign,um, I don't know how you do it,
but for me, before I didanything, I sort of wrote out
my, like what I would, what Icall my big session moments.

(01:04:42):
So I have like my session one.
I had like the, it's like a flowmap

SPEAKER_04 (01:04:47):
of where you want the campaign to go.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:48):
Yeah.
I basically have, I have my flowmap.
And then with that flow map, Iwould then go, okay, so we have
this, how do we get from point Ato point B?
And how do we trickle it in withthis already established kind of
idea?
And then with all of that, Ithen just would slowly just

(01:05:11):
build it over time.
I started writing this in likeJanuary.
And it's been just like a slow,slow progression.
Another thing that I've reallyliked doing is just the idea
of...
like giving the playerssomething that like will be

(01:05:35):
meaningful within the campaignor like something that like will
directly affect them in like ameaningful way.
So for example, with Zach'scharacter Vaughn and turning
into a bear, my whole thoughtprocess was, well, okay, well,

(01:05:56):
obviously this guy worshipsSaluna in a different way.
And, but I was like, okay, soobviously I'm going to give them
all these great powers, but thenI get to thinking what could be
some like drawbacks to being amassive bear.
So then it kind of had me, Idon't know, just really just

(01:06:18):
kind of selecting like what Iwanted to do.
But yeah.
trying to think of any other I

SPEAKER_04 (01:06:26):
mean I understand what you're saying so like when
you come when it goes toplanning for you you know
correct me if I'm wrong you kindof had your story beats in mind
and then it came down toplanning the individual session
on how you would get from A to B

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:40):
yeah

SPEAKER_04 (01:06:41):
like for me big thing was when I came to
planning the campaign I knew thebeginning and how I wanted it to
end and then every session wouldjust flow together until we
arrived here because I reallylike for you guys to have as
much agency as possible becauseSo I would try not to plan more
than two or three sessions aheadbased on the story we're at.
So for instance, in Descent intoAvernus, we ran with the book up

(01:07:04):
until the end of that campaign.
And then I wrote the next like10 levels worth of content.
And when it came to planningthose, I was like, okay, the
players have finished Descentinto Avernus.
They went with the redemptionroute for Zariel.
She has been fully redeemed.
And now that has angeredAsmodeus.

(01:07:26):
So now Asmodeus is mad at theplayers.
He's going to start sendingpeople and maybe even paying
visits himself to them on thematerial plane.
All the players are like,adventure's over.
We split up, we go do our ownthings.
Everybody split up to go dotheir own things, right?
And then everybody got paid avisit at some point by some
aspect of Asmodeus to which allthe players contact each other.

(01:07:49):
Hey, is this happening to you?
It is.
Let's solve this problem.
Let's take care of it ourselves.
Take it into our hands.
We're going to descend intoNessus, into the ninth layer.
So you guys dove through all thelayers, and all I knew was, at
the end of this, their plan isto kill Asmodeus.

(01:08:11):
That's the plan.
That's the end goal.
But I did not have each layerwritten out.
I only had what was written inthe Dungeon Master's Guide and
what's on the wiki written.
for each layer.
Some of the layers only had likethis much description of text to
show me what to write, right?
And so I would just make stuffup.
I'd be like, okay, these firstfew layers, which I feel like

(01:08:34):
are very fleshed out inForgotten Realms lore, first few
layers, a little bit longer,couple sessions each in each
one.
But then as this is happening,hell is what you make of it
depending on who's in charge.
I was thinking...
Asmodeus at this point is like,bring them down here.
I'll take care of them myself.
So it got progressively shortertime in each layer until you

(01:08:55):
were spending in those last liketwo, you spent like one or two
sessions in each one.
And then you were there and itwas time and it was like game
time.
Yeah.
But I wasn't like planning thatas we went.
I was planning session tosession, layer to layer of like,
this is what they have to do toget out of this one.
And it never ended up being likea...

(01:09:19):
I don't plan the whole story asit's probably going to go.
I plan it like based on whateveryou guys are up to, whatever you
guys are doing.
So it's a little bit different,I think, but still same end
result.
I feel like you do a great jobof the storytelling so far
because you have very firm ideasof what you would like to
portray to us.

(01:09:40):
Like you usually do a reallygood job of like, This big lore
bit, I want you guys todiscover.
And you don't let us linger fortoo long.
I'm privy to letting you guys RPas long as you want.
You guys stay in this one placethe whole session if you want
and enjoy your time.
But I feel like you've done apretty solid job of like, okay,

(01:10:01):
well, while you guys are walkingto your next destination, or
like, okay, you guys are alreadyhere.
I assume you guys are leaving.
So you guys are already here.
You're going to go...
jump into the next story beat.
So it does seem like you're kindof on us a lot to keep going,
which I don't think is a badthing because we're all on such
strict time schedules thatyou're able to fit the session

(01:10:24):
in like a three hour time span.

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:26):
Yeah.
So that was another thing isbecause I will admit I am the
person that will look at a wallin the game and I'll go, hmm,
it's a wall.
We go over the wall.
We cannot go over the wall.
Okay.
Can we go around the wall?
You cannot go around the wall.
Okay.

(01:10:46):
It's like two minutes later.
I have an idea.
What's the idea?
Let's go over the wall.
Now we'll see.
We can't go over the wall.
We casted a spell and then itturns into this like 20 minute
discussion on, do we waste asecond level misty step to go
over a 30 foot wall?
And I just remember, I was like,I, because again, I love the

(01:11:10):
story.
I'm like, this to me doesn'tnecessarily drive a story.
There are obviously some partsthat can do that.
But I'm like, if we're, ifwe're, if the, if something like
a wall is inaccessible, let'smove on.
Like, let's, let's, let's, let'skeep moving.
Let's keep moving.

SPEAKER_03 (01:11:29):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:29):
Yeah.
And, and again, Another thing isI want to intentionally have you
guys continually questioneverything that I presented to
you guys.
So it's not as, like, a RPthing, but as, like, a

(01:11:50):
personally, like, yourcharacter.
Like, how would they react inthis situation?
Or, like, when we discoveredyour first two...
clerics in Azure Alley who were,like, the first, like, flower
zombie things.
We really didn't stay too longwith those guys.
We kind of were just, like, weobserved them, you know, we kind

(01:12:12):
of sussed some stuff out, andthen we kind of left.
But what I really wanted to kindof see, like, what you guys'
thought process was were, like,you know, how'd they get down
here, you know, or just a lot ofjust open and shut questions
just so that eventuallyeverything goes and everyone
goes, Oh, oh.
Yeah.

(01:12:32):
Oh.
Like, so in our previoussession, we had a one-off.
So the way that I kind of set upthis campaign, in a sense, it's
a sort of small-ish scaledcampaign.
I really wanted to give sort oflike some like history and
backstory using that samesetting.

(01:12:53):
And so in this session...
You essentially are goingthrough the first couple of
weeks of the construction ofthis massive city.
And I intentionally ended it onthe third week, essentially.
Where I was like, okay, thethird week's happened.
This big thing happened.

(01:13:14):
That's where we're going to endit.
And the guys were like, did youmean to do that?
They're like, what the heck?
We kind of just...
Like, what was the point?
And I'm like, listen, don'tworry.
I understand.
It does not make sense now.
But I was like, trust me.
You'll understand later.

(01:13:36):
And that's all I'm...
I know when it's going tohappen.
Because I know...
I feel like I will know whateach person is going to go, oh.
Like, oh, that...
That makes sense.
I feel like I'm known now whereeveryone's going to make that
realization.
That's cool.
I like that.
That's what I love as astoryteller is keeping everybody

(01:14:00):
in the dark until it's just thatone, like,

SPEAKER_00 (01:14:04):
oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_04 (01:14:07):
No, I like that.
Well, you're doing a great jobso far.
I'm enjoying playing in thecampaign.
I'm also still enjoying DMing.
I think that a lot of these...
elements that you've talkedabout, like it makes a lot of
sense how you got there.
And I do think it's a lotdifferent than what a lot of us
do.
Like when it comes to Drew,right?

(01:14:28):
He plans one session for thewhole year.
He spends months thinking aboutthe one session he's going to
run.
And you can tell when we arriveat that session, that this is an
event.
We make it an annual event to dothese Christmas one-offs that
he's been planning.
And I still remember each onevividly, you know?
For me, I am the lazy DM.

(01:14:50):
I can DM every single weekwithout fail, without getting
tired, right?
And that's because I don't puttoo much thought into it.
I have the story planned out,but I really let you guys write
that story for me and I guideyou to the right spots.
Right.
So I don't stress about it toomuch.
Like I typically don't preparethe session until the day the

(01:15:11):
session is supposed to happen.
And I don't think about itbeforehand because I don't want
to stress myself out and notwant to play D&D.
It's like, okay, I know I'mdoing this on Saturday.
Saturday morning, I'll geteverything ready.
I think Sean plans a whole lotfor a while leading up to it.
And then you jump in and it'sall very well fleshed out.

(01:15:31):
It's all very well thoughtthrough for the entire time.
And I haven't gotten to play forhim.
Like, admittedly, I didn't getto play in Theros.
So I can't give you morecriticism on exactly his style.
But I do know from the sessionsI have played for him, he is
very thorough when it comes totelling the story.
He knows his characters.

(01:15:52):
Yes,

SPEAKER_02 (01:15:53):
that does ring true in the Theros campaign.
Yeah.
It got to the point where youcould really feel that we were
in Theros and what we were doingwas deeply impacting the world
we were in.
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (01:16:09):
And then...
For you, I always constantlyfeel like you have a tree
dangled in front of me.
You always have something likesitting there where I'm like, I
need that.
I need it.
And so that's been a really funthing so far where I'm like,
okay, well, I want to play thenext session because I need to
know what's going to happennext.

SPEAKER_02 (01:16:30):
Yeah, I will say for just for the, I guess the
audience, Seth and Sean areTheir whole, so right now in act
one, Drew, Sean, Drew, Chase,and Zach are getting their kind
of, their kind of spotlightmoment.
Sean and Seth are going to bevery integral in act two.

SPEAKER_04 (01:16:56):
Yeah, it's exciting.
I'm excited to learn that kindof stuff.
I complain every session becauseeverybody's getting like cool
powers and stuff.
And I go, DM, no one has givenme the power to turn into a
super Saiyan yet.
When is this going to happen?

SPEAKER_03 (01:17:07):
Yeah,

SPEAKER_02 (01:17:11):
I know.
I

SPEAKER_04 (01:17:15):
think it's funny.

(01:17:37):
Because Sean still has morestories he wants to tell.
I know you still want you wantto go through this whole thing.
And then I have another likethree year campaign to DM.
And that's before Spelljammer isdone.
Spelljammer is not even barelystarted.
Oh,

SPEAKER_02 (01:17:52):
I know.
Listen, I'm glad we havecontent.
There was a point in time wherewe kind of really didn't have a
lot going.
We just had like an occasionallike one off.
That was when I first left,right?
Yeah, it was around there.
And then we would do like, like,I think Zach would do something,

(01:18:13):
Sean would do something, Drewwould do something, but it would
always just, I don't know.
It's always nice to havesomething.
I like that we've finallyreached that point where we can
go, we can finally say, Well, wehave essentially the next 10
years on lock, if need be.

SPEAKER_04 (01:18:29):
I feel like we're going to have to have a
rotation.
Like, you're going to finishyour arc, then I'm going to do
an arc, and then Sean's going todo his, and then we're going to
loop back around or something.
Which I think is cool.
I think it would be awesome.
Or, likewise, what I'm trying todo is spell jammer right now,
which I think a lot of peoplecould bring into it.
Like, I used to be the foreverDM.
If I wasn't there that week, noone was playing.

(01:18:51):
Like, that used to be how itwas, right?
And

SPEAKER_02 (01:18:53):
it was unfortunate.

SPEAKER_04 (01:18:55):
And now, what I'm doing with Spelljammer is I've
designed it as a space odysseythat is episodic.
So, like, you guys are going onthis space adventure, and if two
people aren't there that week,they can stay on the ship while
the other three dock and go onthe adventure.
And I'm glad we're doing thatbecause that means I can get
more sessions of it in on weeksthat we're not playing.

(01:19:15):
I can be like, hey, if we canplay this weekend, or if, like,
nobody can play this weekend,I'll run Spelljammer.
So that's nice.
I would like not to be missingmore than two players, though,
because I feel like the vibesget off.
Then if it's only two of youguys, if at least three of you
guys are going on the journey,it makes a little more sense.

SPEAKER_02 (01:19:35):
My thing is I always need three.
I need at least three.

SPEAKER_04 (01:19:39):
So anything else as far as your campaign goes?
Any thoughts on DM styles?
Any last-minute advice to giveto anybody who might have been
playing for years but not jumpedinto DMing yet?

SPEAKER_02 (01:19:53):
Yeah, if you are a new player, truly, all you need
is a singular idea.
This whole campaign essentiallycame to my mind when I saw the
character Marluxia from KingdomHearts 2, and my thought process
was, okay, this guy has a deepvoice, he carries a scythe, and

(01:20:16):
his deal is flowers.
I was like, Since when areflowers like that cool?
It was this idea of somethingreally beautiful could also be
deadly.
So don't be afraid.
If you're like, if you're likeafraid of like, I'm not, I'm not
sure if this idea is goodenough.
It is.
It is.
It's, it's, it's always, you gotto get past that first hurdle

(01:20:40):
of, am I going to be able to dothis?
Because nine times out of 10,you're, if you go in with
confidence and, nine times outof 10, your players will see
that confidence and they'll feedoff of you.

SPEAKER_04 (01:20:52):
Yeah.
And

SPEAKER_02 (01:20:53):
I think imposter

SPEAKER_04 (01:20:54):
syndrome is the one, the one thing I would say is
like a lot of times you, youhave had, you've had the same DM
for a few years and you think Ican't do better than them.
You don't have to do better thanthem.
You, you'll probably have yourown thing for like, like we just
described the, the four DMS thatwe, we had in our other, we've
had all have extremely differentplay styles.

(01:21:15):
I didn't even go over Zach'splay style where like, I feel
like Zach, his huge strong pointis just his characters feel so
real.
Like, his voices and the way heportrays his characters, they
feel like real people.
Like, I feel like mine don'talways feel real, they feel like
fun anime characters.
Like, that's how a lot of my DMstyle comes from, because I like

(01:21:38):
anime and fantasy storytelling.
And yeah, Zach's characters,they're real people.

SPEAKER_03 (01:21:44):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:21:44):
And that's because he's got a lot of he's got a lot
of acting training.

SPEAKER_02 (01:21:48):
Yeah, I there are some characters that Zach does
and I'm like, God, I wish Icould do that voice.
Exactly.
Oh, that's and that's anotherthing.
New DMs do not be like deterredif you if you can do a bunch of
crazy voices.
It is OK.
Yeah, it's yeah, it's not a bigdeal.

(01:22:10):
Honestly, a good way to practiceone that I like doing is doing
things that, like, you know youcan control.
So, like, let's say yourcharacter has, like, it's, like,
more, like, feminine sounding inyour male DM.
You could, you know, hold yournose.
Hello there.
My name is...
And you've already changed yourvoice without even really having

(01:22:31):
to do anything.
Or, like, or even doing stuffthat, like...
Like, describing, like, amuffled sound.
You could be like...

SPEAKER_03 (01:22:41):
We haven't even

SPEAKER_04 (01:22:41):
said that Sean's character holds a cup up to his
mouth like this when he talks.
Yeah, exactly.
That's his whole voice.
It's his normal voice, but heholds a cup up to his mouth and
does a more higher-pitchedthing.
And it's really funny.

SPEAKER_02 (01:22:57):
Again, yeah, so when it comes to, like, that, like,
creating a character and, like,creating this, like,
potential...
you know, three year project,don't be like, don't feel like
you have to like make the mostoverpowered character right off
the rip because it's, it'salways going to be that slow

(01:23:19):
grind and it's always more fun.
Just enjoying the process as yougo.
Do not be afraid to try newthings.
I think that's good advice.
I think that's good.

SPEAKER_03 (01:23:28):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:23:29):
All right.
Now, I don't know if you knowhow we close out the show in the
past, but I'm going to have toask a favor from you.
Typically, you know, I'll say alittle blurb.
I'll, you know, give shout outsto our Patreon, to the YouTube
channels, all the links andstuff like that.
And then I'll say a specificcharacter's name and I'll have
them do an outro.
So like in the past, forexample, and this is for all new

(01:23:50):
listeners, you know, get used tothis.
I'd be like, all right, and nowlet's have Asmodeus take us out.
And then Zach will jump in asAsmodeus and say some dumb shit
and we'll end the show.
Okay.
So I'm going to do that.
I'm going to have you improv forme.
Okay.
So thank you guys so much forwatching, for listening to Table
Talk Friday.
We're watching it because wehave a little bit of video.
Now we're putting up on YouTubeand in the Patreon.

(01:24:12):
You can find that Patreon overat patreon.com slash Table Talk
Friday, or you can justsubscribe over on youtube.com
slash Table Talk Friday.
All of your podcasting apps,Spotify, YouTube music, Apple
podcasts.
You can find us all of thoseplaces.
But for now, I'm going to haveto ask for Daleth to take us

(01:24:34):
out.

SPEAKER_02 (01:24:36):
Okay.
Oh, man.
What a time.
What a memory.
I truly have enjoyed myexperience here at the Table
Talk podcast.
Let me tell you, I do it again.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I doneed to go burn a house down.

(01:24:57):
Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 (01:24:58):
Thank you for listening to Table Talk Friday.
For more information, advice,questions, comments, and
concerns, you can email the boysat tabletalkfriday at gmail.com.
And if you'd like to tell yourown stories, why don't you hit

(01:25:22):
them up there?
Send an inquiry or something, asending spell.
Thank you very much forlistening and please follow and
come back next week.
Goodbye.
Bye-bye.

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