May 16, 2024 • 35 mins
"Cuck" is way more than an internet insult. In this episode of Taboo Science, we're stepping out and diving in to cuckolding, the real-life kink and lifestyle all about the thrill of your partner sleeping with someone else. Join us as we chat with clinical psychologist Dr. David Ley and popular cuckolding podcaster Venus Cuckoldress, who shed light on the psychological quirks and deep emotional connections in this often misunderstood practice. We're also breaking down how it all plays into the complicated dynamics of race, power, and gender. If you're curious to understand a taboo that's reshaping how some people view relationships and empowerment, give it a listen. Let's get into why cuckolding is having a major moment right now and what it could mean for you.
Resources from Dr. David Ley:
- Website: https://www.davidleyphd.com/
- Insatiable Wives: Women Who Stray and the Men Who Love Them https://amzn.to/3V0mRy4
Resources from Venus Cuckoldress:
- Podcast: https://www.venuscuckoldress.com/
- Matchmaking service: https://www.venusconnections.com/
See citations and a transcript here: https://www.tabooscience.show/042-cuckolding
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ashley (00:00):
It seems like everyone's calling everyone a cuck these days.
(00:05):
If you'd assumed this was a new insultmade up by trolls on 4chan just a few
years ago, You'd only be half right.
The full word is cuckold, and it's old.
It dates back to the 13th century, backwhen English was barely recognizable as
the vehicle now used for distinguishedphrasing like pussy in bio.
(00:29):
Cuckold refers to a man whosewife is sleeping with another man.
The ultimate emasculation, a sign that thehusband can't satisfy his wife sexually.
Not to mention, exert the controlover her behavior that was literally
required by law back in the day.
Plus, a cheating wife might get pregnant,forcing her husband to raise children
(00:50):
that aren't his without even knowing it.
It was the ultimate male anxiety.
So, cuckold was a popular term in theMiddle Ages and the early modern period.
Chaucer, Shakespeare, and even Germanand Italian authors used it a lot.
But, as norms changed, as genderroles became looser, as birth
(01:11):
control got better, things relaxed alittle bit, and we forgot about it.
Cuckold faded into obscurity.
But then, The internet.
With the rise of streaming video camean explosion in the kinds of porn
available, including cuckolding porn,where the turn on came from a husband
being degraded by his wife's infidelity.
(01:33):
That brought cuckolding back intothe popular consciousness, but Where
4chan and other right wing cornersof the internet got a hold of it,
shortened it to cuck, and startedthrowing it around as an insult for
anyone who didn't think like them.
Anyone who considered the other sideor apologized for their missteps.
During the US election in 2016,cuck servitive was even coined for
(01:55):
conservatives who opposed Donald Trump.
However, away from the insults andthe politics, there's a large group of
people who take cuckolding seriously.
and do it on purpose.
For some people, the anxietyand humiliation of cuckolding
is a serious turn on.
And for others, there's no humiliationin it at all, just a feeling of
(02:17):
power and a satisfaction in givingtheir partner a new experience.
And it's worth mentioning thatplenty of them are conservative.
Today, we're learning what makes aperson want their partner to step
out on them, what it does for them,and how it affects the relationship.
I'm Ashley Hamer and this is TabooScience, the podcast that answers the
(02:39):
questions you're not allowed to ask.
(03:02):
As we've established,cuckolding is anything but new.
In fact, it's so ingrained in ourculture that you, dear listener,
may have even done something thatoriginated in that middle age's
anxiety over becoming a cuckold.
David Ley (03:15):
You know how in pictures people be silly and they put up fingers
behind somebody else's head, right?
Oh, it's bunny ears.
No, it's not bunny ears.
It's an ancient signthat you're a cuckold.
Ashley (03:29):
That's Dr.
David Ley.
David Ley (03:31):
I'm a clinical psychologist and a sex therapist.
I'm based in Albuquerque, New Mexico.
And I have sort of an interesting career.
Day job as a traditionalpsychologist running a large
mental health organization.
And years ago I started workingwith alternative sexuality issues.
And I ended up writing my first bookcalled Insatiable Wives, Women Who Stray
and Men Who Love Them about cuckoldingand hotwifing and the psychology of it.
(03:56):
And that really, you know, kind ofcatapulted me onto this interesting
career where now I do training andspeaking and writing and therapy around
the world around sexuality issues.
Ashley (04:08):
There's one key difference between the cuckolding of yesteryear
and the cuckolding of today, though.
There's And that difference is consent.
David Ley (04:16):
Now it is men typically who go to their wives and say, Hey, I think it'd
be really hot to see you with another man.
And they use the term cuckolding.
They call it cuckolding, but it'sdifferent because it's consensual.
And it has become, um, a lifestyle,you know, kind of like swinging.
(04:38):
It's a form of consensual nonmonogamy, but different from
swinging, different from polyamory.
Cuckolding is primarily focused onthe wife having recreational sex
with other men, and typically thehusband is monogamous to the wife.
(05:00):
And remember how I mentioned that somepeople are in it for the humiliation
and others are in it for the power?
Those two subsets have different names.
Cuckolding specifically is usuallycentered on the humiliation
and submissiveness elements.
Where cuckolding oftentimes involvessome forms of submissiveness by the
(05:21):
husband, oftentimes humiliation, sometimeshumiliation for their penis size, small
penis humiliation, which is anotherfetish, can come in here, Um, sometimes
there's forced bisexuality, sometimesit can involve some pretty explicit, you
know, kind of BDSM kind of submissiveness.
Those elements are notpresent in hotwifing.
Ashley (05:43):
Hotwifing.
Like, look how hot my wife is, I betyou'd like to enjoy a night with her.
David Ley (05:49):
Which looks a bit more like swinging, but is more focused on the
husband sharing the wife with other men,and typically the husband participating.
Ashley (05:59):
The wife in these scenarios is often called the
cuckoldress, but not always.
David Ley (06:04):
There's even a new term called stag vixen, which people are
embracing and saying, oh, you know, thehusband saying, I'm not a humiliated
cuckold, I'm a stag, and I love sharingmy vixen hot wife with other men.
Venus Cuckoldress (06:20):
There's definitely, like, different paths where people
fall onto the doorstep of cuckolding.
Definitely very different paths.
Ashley (06:28):
That is Venus Cuckoldress, host of the Venus Cuckoldress podcast,
which shares tips and advice abouthow to get into and how to make the
most out of a cuckolding relationship.
She's also the founder ofVenus Connections, cuckolding
relationship, which seems tobe the only one of its kind.
Venus Cuckoldress (06:47):
It's usually something that begins with a couple
who've been together for a very longtime and they could start with swinging
and then the guy realizes, oh, I justactually really like watching my wife.
Like, I don't, I'm not reallyinterested in these other women.
That's a lot of the timewhere this comes from.
There's the other path, whichis through the Kink BDSM door.
(07:11):
And so that's where this is partof, uh, like a list of other kinks
and fetishes and things like that,that somebody's interested in.
Um, or this kind of falls into thesexual denial and tease and denial
and humiliation part of kink.
And so therefore that's where the doorthat they take to land on cuckolding.
Ashley (07:32):
You may have noticed that all of this is exclusively about
what a straight partnered man wants.
We'll get into other genders andorientations in a second, but it's worth
mentioning that straight men are far andaway the most likely to be into cuckolding
because of gendered expectationsabout how a man should be, what he
should want, and how he should behave.
(07:54):
Flipping those expectations is taboo,and that's often what makes it hot.
David Ley (07:59):
It is men seeking escape from the burden of having to maintain
this rigid, macho identity that is workand sometimes doesn't feel natural.
You know, the real man is the guywhose wife isn't cheating on him
(08:20):
and would never cheat on him becauseshe doesn't need another man.
He can satisfy her.
And that's a lot of work sometimes.
And so it's not by accident thatcuckolding as a fantasy in men appears
most common in communities and cultureswith very rigid gender stereotypes.
(08:43):
Cuckolding appears to be oneof the more common fantasies in
conservatives in the United States.
Cuckolding is quite popular as a fantasyin more macho countries with rigid gender
stereotypes like Brazil, Italy, Russia.
(09:03):
You know, the more taboo you makesomething, the more exciting that
thing becomes for some people.
And so for some people, the idea of givingup being the macho man whose wife would
never cheat on him becomes pretty sexy.
Ashley (09:21):
If you've listened to the BDSM episode, you might be having
the same a ha moment that I am.
Wait.
In egalitarian countries wherewomen have more power, women want
to give up power in the bedroom.
And now you're telling me that incountries where men have all the power?
Men want to give up power in the bedroom?
Humans are really complex, but boy arewe predictable in some important ways.
(09:45):
But what about the humiliation aspect?
That's also a big element in BDSM,and this series hasn't really
investigated where that kink comes from.
And as you'd expect, there are a lotof different places it might come from.
David Ley (09:59):
There's no easy answer.
This is human psychology andsexuality, so there's a million
different answers, right?
Human sexuality is highlyoverdetermined and multiply influenced.
Ashley (10:11):
Overdetermined means there are more causes than would
be necessary to cause and effect.
Multiply influenced means thereare many interacting causes.
Put another way, the reasons behindhuman sexuality are a big old mess.
David Ley (10:24):
But all that said, some of the best kind of
explanations or reasons that I see,
one
is people get to experiencesomething that they think they can't
(10:44):
survive, and then they survive it.
Ashley (10:47):
Like a horror movie, sort of.
David Ley (10:49):
Yeah, yeah, that's a good, yeah, or riding a
rollercoaster kind of thing.
Yeah, it's funny because I see menthat have average size penises,
or even large penises, Reallyenjoy small penis humiliation.
And it's like, what the fuck?
What the fuck is going on here, right?
Well, my argument as a psychologistgetting inside these guys brains,
(11:10):
right, is that they have internalizedthe, the idea or belief that being
shamed for having a small penis isthe worst possible thing in the world.
That being a man with a smallpenis means you're not masculine
enough and not manly enough.
And that is horrifying.
And then they experience it, andsurvive it, and overcome it, and find
(11:38):
that it's not the end of the world.
And They get to give up trying so hard.
Venus Cuckoldress (11:48):
For some guys who I talked to, their origin story is from
an instance where their partner, she didcheat on him and he did find out about it.
And at first he was devastated, butthen oddly very turned on by it and
wanted all the details about it.
And that can be such a weird thingfor guys to process in their mind.
(12:08):
Cause they're like, I shouldn't.
be turned on by this.
Why am I turned on by this?
This makes no sense.
But that's how some guys do realizelike, I actually am into this.
And I don't know if it's just eroticizingyour deepest fears, but like, it is that
that's where the angst comes from, too.
Because it's just like thisdoes feel wrong and this very
(12:30):
taboo, but it's also very hot.
Ashley (12:34):
So that's a reason for some people.
Humiliation play can give you achance to experience your fears in a
safe, controlled environment so youcan realize they're not that bad.
There's also a theory that humiliation isa way to escape your own self awareness.
Just as cuckolding can be a way forpowerful men to let go of some of
that power, humiliation in generalcan be a way for people to let go
(12:57):
of worrying about their self image,maintaining their dignity, and
controlling how other people see them.
Makes you wonder if celebrities andsocial media influencers have higher
rates of humiliation kinks, right?
Another part of the appeal ofhumiliation came up in my conversation
with BDSM educator Lena Dune.
She plays with cuckolding in herown BDSM scenes, and the humiliation
(13:20):
aspect is a big plus for her.
Lina Dune (13:22):
For me, there are scenes where I'll be left out and I'll be like, Yeah,
I really want to be left out of this.
And I want to hear why she'sbetter than me and why you're
never going to touch me again.
And that's how it plays out for me.
And the way that that reallyfeels is yes, I'm definitely
eroticizing those feelings of shame.
But then I also feel very seen actuallyby my partner because, you know, you
(13:47):
can't really Be humiliated and playedwith in that way without someone really
seeing and understanding you and caringabout you and not taking it too far.
I've heard people say that humiliation canfeel more heartwarming than praise because
like, we've all heard the praise words,but if you know the word that makes me
feel, you know, kind of exposed that ismore on the humiliation side of things,
(14:08):
you're like, oh wow, okay, you reallyknow me, you really see me, I get it.
Ashley (14:12):
You might notice that Lena is not a straight cis man, and
yet she's into being a cuckold.
How common is it for the genderroles to be reversed in this?
David Ley (14:22):
There is a flavor of non monogamy that, uh, is focused on the
wife being monogamous and encouragingthe husband to be with other men.
Sometimes other men,but usually other women.
And it's called Cuckqueening, althoughit's spelled in an interesting way.
You would think it would be C U C KQ U E E N I N G, but it's Q U E A N I
(14:47):
N G, and I have no earthly idea why.
Um, I'm sure that there's an interestingetymological reason, and somebody out
there can, can find it and send it to me.
Ashley (14:57):
Hi, Dr.
Ley.
Long time listener, first time caller, andI figured out why it's spelled that way.
I have to say, my first assumptionwas that it was because the
non monogamy community justloves coming up with new words.
See, compersion.
But it's actually much,much, much older than that.
Like, it's almost as old asthe word cuckolding itself.
(15:18):
That spelling of queen is fromMiddle English, and refers to
a low woman, a harlot or hussy,basically the opposite of Q U E E N.
So in the 15th century, people startedsaying cuck queen to mean a lowly woman
whose husband was cheating on her.
And there you have it!
David Ley (15:37):
Justin Lehmiller has done some research around this for his book
called Tell Me What You Want About SexualFantasies and he found about 45 percent
of men, um, report a fantasy of seeingtheir wife or girlfriend with other men.
So it's extremely common.
Cuckweening in w yeah.
Cuckweening in women seems far,far, far, far less, less common.
Venus Cuckoldress (15:58):
From what I've, like, my experience and what I've
come across, I think I'm only in thelast Almost a decade come across two
women who identified as a Cuck Queen.
That's not to say that there aren'tmore women out there, but I just
don't feel like there's a lotof spaces for them online where
(16:19):
they feel like this is for me.
David Ley (16:21):
You know, there are probably some evolutionary
reasons playing into this.
Certainly, I think that there are socialand cultural reasons playing into that.
Um, a lot of the women that go intocuckolding are oftentimes afraid
to do so for fear of slut shaming.
Because again, remember, womenthat were exposed to engaging
in cuckolding historically,um, were horrifically punished.
(16:43):
One reason I think women would be,uh, you know, certainly loathe to
encourage cuck queening, um, would befear of losing their husband, of course.
Ashley (16:52):
This makes sense.
If there's an actual riskof something happening, it's
not going to be hot for you.
And studies show that men docheat slightly more often than
women, though that's becoming lesstrue with younger generations.
But also, women historically have had alot more to lose by losing their husbands
than husbands have by losing their wives.
In single breadwinner households,your husband is kind of your lifeline.
(17:16):
That's less common thesedays, but not by much.
In 2011, just 15 percent ofhouseholds with children had the
mother as the primary provider.
David Ley (17:26):
One of my supervisees, a lady named Carolyn Lee, she did an
informal study of cuck cleaning thatshe's still working on writing up for
a project, and one of the things thatI encouraged her to look at was, are
women doing it because it turns them on?
Or are women letting their husbandhave sex with other women because
(17:50):
they feel like if they don't, theirhusband would leave them, right?
So is this kind of a devil'sbargain sort of thing?
And it doesn't appear so.
The women that she was able tointerview that are engaging in
cuckqueening are doing so specificallybecause it is hot for them.
Ashley (18:07):
If there are cuckqueens listening, I want you to know that I believe in you.
You are not Bigfoot, and I know you exist.
But it just seems like women arenot asking their husbands to step
out on them nearly as much ashusbands are asking their wives to.
\When we come back, we're talking aboutwhether gay men are into cuckolding,
what the other two people in thisarrangement get out of it, and how
(18:30):
to get started, if you want to.
Stay tuned.
Okay, so what about peoplewho aren't straight?
In 2008, Dan Savage wrote in his legendarysex advice column, Savage Love, that
(18:52):
gay men don't have cuckolding fantasiesbecause there's no risk of their partner
getting pregnant with another man's child.
When some other guy is doing, say, myboyfriend or being done by him, it doesn't
necessarily mean I'm being violated,humiliated, kicked out of my own bed, etc.
It usually just means I'mhaving a three way, end quote.
(19:13):
Well, tons of gay men wrote in tosay that they themselves actually
did have a cuckolding fantasy.
And Dr.
Ley and Dr.
Justin Lehmiller, who you'll hear ona future episode, collaborated with
Dan Savage to find data on this.
First, via porn.
Turns out that it was a kink on the rise.
Searches for cuckold on Pornhubpages featuring gay male material
(19:37):
nearly doubled from 2014 to 2016.
When the researchers asked gay men abouttheir cuckolding fantasies, they were
different than those of straight men.
Much less focus on the size of theother man's penis, much more interest
in being there in the room to watch.
So.
There is some diversity of gender andorientation here, despite the fact that
(19:57):
we have and will continue to mostly referto husband cuckolds and their wives.
But what about those wives?
What did they get out of it?
Take it from someonewho absolutely loves it.
Venus started out in the worldof swinging as a solo woman, a
unicorn, and she had a lot of fun.
But there were a lot of rulesthat didn't quite do it for her.
Venus Cuckoldress (20:20):
So for a few years there, I was just like, well, I'm screwed.
Like, there's, I'm never goingto find what I think I want
because that's too selfish.
There's no guy that'sgoing to sign up for that.
And then I was on Tinder and this guy Ihad on my profile, I don't want monogamy.
And he must have been like, Oh, she mightbe open to this kind of relationship.
(20:42):
He didn't bring it up right away.
He was asking me aboutmy different partners and
experiences and stuff like that.
And then he sort of slowlybrought it up to me.
And I was in disbelief.
I was like, What are you talking about?
This sounds like way too good to be true.
This actually exists?
I had no idea.
(21:02):
So we started dating andoh my god, was it ever fun.
Like, I was just like, thisis the relationship for me.
It was, it was almost likeI felt like, what fit me?
And I'm like, this is exactly what I want.
Ashley (21:16):
And it's not just Venus.
She's seen tons of relationshipsblossom from this dynamic.
And a lot of the time, it's becauseit's a much bigger benefit to the
woman than either person realized.
Venus Cuckoldress (21:34):
Guys who have, you know, ventured into this with their wife
and witnessed her explore her sexualitywith other people, they say one of the
most unexpected benefits for them, for theguy, has been being able to witness that.
Being able to witness her actuallyhave this renewed self confidence
(21:57):
and this sexual prowess and likejust watching her blossom as this
incredible sexual woman and they get towitness that and they are just in awe.
This ends up really as a celebration ofher sexuality instead of the you know,
oppression or jealousy of her sexuality.
(22:17):
This is a celebration.
He is witnessing her havethis joy and he's feeling joy.
And so they didn't realize that.
The women didn't realize that.
The guys didn't realize that.
But this is what it becomes.
David Ley (22:30):
One woman, she said, when another man tells me that I'm hot and
he wants to have sex with me, it reallymakes me feel really good about myself.
And I said, and that doesn't workthat way when your husband says it.
And she says, no, that's his job.
He's supposed to say that.
But when another man saysit, it's real, right?
(22:52):
She also said, though, she described thatAt one point, her daughter, her teenage
daughter came to her and said, you know,Mom, something's different because you're
acting so confident and you're assertivein a way that I've never seen you before.
And the wife did not tell thedaughter, Oh yeah, it's cause I'm
(23:15):
having sex with all these other guys.
But the daughter saw.
That this had become a placeof empowerment for the wife
that her mother had never had.
Ashley (23:40):
There's a third group of people involved in this dynamic
who we haven't talked about yet.
The other guy, or what thecuckolding community calls the bull.
This is where things can get tricky.
David Ley (23:51):
Cuckold couples have told me that they actually have trouble
finding guys that they can trust enoughto have sex with the wife because
they need a guy that is trustworthyenough to treat the wife well.
and to respect their marriage.
But a lot of guys that would treat thewife well and respect their marriage
(24:15):
don't want to poach on the marriagebecause that feels unethical, right?
So it's a dilemma.
The couples have to work to find guysthat they can share the wife with
and have it be a positive experience.
And so there's a lot of dialogueabout that within these communities.
Venus Cuckoldress (24:33):
People fail to understand, like, the bull
is actually a big part of thisand, and not just somebody to
step in and do this sexual act.
Like, a bull is someone who enjoysit and gets as excited about it
as I do about being a cuckoldress.
Like, that is somebody who,who really loves this dynamic.
(24:55):
They really enjoy being partof this dynamic within couples.
and they know how to kind of getto know each dynamic that each
couple has, which is so uniqueand play with that and sometimes
push boundaries if they consent..
Ashley (25:10):
But there's another quality that many couples, especially couples in the U.
S., look for in a bull.
And that is his race.
David Ley (25:19):
There's a lot of fantasy about the white wife being with Black men.
Some folks have expressedconcern that this is racism.
It is, in my opinion, anexpression of the racial taboo and
racial conflict in our culture.
I think if we lived in a society thatwasn't struggling with racism, people
wouldn't be fantasizing about it.
Venus Cuckoldress (25:40):
So this was something that my first cuck boyfriend brought up
when I was looking for partners for bulls.
And he was like, well,what about a black guy?
And where I live, there'sjust not very many of them.
Ashley (25:51):
Venus lives in Vancouver, Canada, where the black
population is less than 2%.
Venus Cuckoldress (25:56):
And I've had great experiences with Black men before, so I
was like, okay, this sounds like a greatopportunity to, and so this was way back
when Craigslist Personals was a thing.
So I put an ad on there, and it was great.
I actually came up withsome excellent partners.
So that was something that Ibecame interested in, in the
beginning, but it wasn't reallylike, part of any humiliation kind
(26:18):
of teasing or anything like that.
It was just, I really enjoyedthe experiences that I'd had.
And so I wanted to have that again.
It wasn't until I started blogging andpodcasting that I realized in the United
States, this is a really big thing.
And it does tie in with the humiliationteasing part for some couples.
(26:39):
For some couples, this is aboutthe taboo of a black guy you.
being intimate with a white woman.
And so I was just like, really?
Like, I didn't know.
I didn't know about that part of it.
And then I started to learnabout what's called race play and
BDSM and what that is all about.
Ashley (26:57):
Venus has had several Black Bulls on her podcast who really
enjoy race play and the dynamicsof being with white couples.
I'll link to thoseepisodes in the show notes.
Venus Cuckoldress (27:06):
And then I started to understand the appeal of it, but
when it originates from a very racistpoint, I really don't like that, and
I don't think that's a very good partof this kind of lifestyle to see.
I especially don't like itwhen people treat black bulls
(27:29):
like they're not human beings.
Like they are just a body part to use.
And that pisses me off hugely.
It makes me really mad.
We have definitely, there'sroom for improvement within the
lifestyle and that's one of them.
David Ley (27:47):
Another one of my supervisees, Tammy Fisher, did a
study of the experiences of Blackmen in cuckolding relationships.
And so these are men that kind oftheir hobby is to be a bull and to
go out and have sex with white wives.
There's a Oftentimes a lot ofconcern that these men are being
(28:07):
exploited and stigmatized andtreated in in inappropriate
or non consensual racial ways.
And what Tammy found was thatby and large, most of these men
experience it in very positive ways.
They don't have negative experiences.
And in what I thought was one of the mostfascinating findings, The men reported
(28:29):
that they very often saw white couplesbecome less racist through the process
of sharing the wife with black men.
Because they, they started to develop arelationship with these black men and they
started to view the men as human being.
(28:52):
And, uh, Some of them even reported thatthey saw these white couples go from
being these pretty conservative, rememberconservative background, being these
pretty conservative folks with kind ofracial attitudes, now becoming involved
in anti racism activities because theyhave learned to care about these black
(29:13):
men through the process of really hot sex.
Ashley (29:18):
This is also not the first time we've heard this.
In the BDSM episode, Lena Dunementioned professional dominatrixes,
sex workers, who are some of themost vulnerable members of society,
and they work with their white maleclients on their misogyny, racism,
and dismantling their privilege.
Sex and kink are intimate acts, andthey can be a chance to be intimate
(29:40):
with a kind of person you hardly everencounter in your day to day life.
Who knew that kink could save the world?
So, if this dynamic appeals toyou, how do you get started?
(30:04):
Both Dr.
Ley and Venus said the same thing.
Go slow.
David Ley (30:10):
This can be such an exciting fantasy and so energizing and
compelling that it can be really easy.
to jump in over your head.
Venus Cuckoldress (30:26):
I think there's this pressure that couples feel where they
have to, like it's not cuckolding unlessshe actually sleeps with somebody else.
I would say 90 percent of the funof this kind of relationship is
not me sleeping with another guy.
Most of the fun is that kind of likelittle game that you play with your
partner where you're talking about it,where you're flirting around with it
(30:48):
and you're, you're having fun with it.
So if you're If you're a new coupleand you're like, this is fun, this
is great, don't be pressured toactually do something in person.
David Ley (31:02):
For couples that want to explore this, they
need to tiptoe into the water.
This sounds like shameless self promotion,but one of the ways that couples tiptoe
into this is by getting the audio book ofmy book, Insatiable Wives, and going on
a road trip together and listening to it.
And then using it as an opportunityto talk with each other about how they
(31:25):
feel or their reactions or what theythink is sexy and exciting about it.
Ashley (31:34):
And if you find yourself struggling with these feelings,
know that you're perfectly okay.
Venus Cuckoldress (31:40):
Cucks are not weak.
Cucks are very strong.
Emotionally strong.
And they are so loved,just the way that they are.
There's so much shamethat guys are carrying.
Because of this, they're soembarrassed about being into this.
They feel like it's a curse.
(32:01):
They hate themselves for it.
One minute, they love it.
They're very turned on by it.
And the next minute, they're like, Oh,I feel awful about myself about though.
I don't want to be into this.
Why can't I be into some otherkind of fetish or fantasy?
There's this self hatred going onwith a lot of these guys out there
who are fantasizing about this andwant this and that's really shitty.
(32:25):
And my aim is to let people knowlike, Hey, Cucks are amazing.
They are the best partnersthat you could ever want.
Like they're selfless, like they'regenerous and they're trusting and like,
and they're just amazing human beings.
And.
If everybody understood that, I feellike the guys who are really struggling
(32:49):
with themselves for liking this mightstart to accept themselves and that's
ultimately what I hope would happen.
Ashley (33:04):
Thanks for listening.
My deepest gratitude to Dr.
David Leigh and Venus Cuckoldress.
Dr.
Ley's book is Insatiable Wives, WomenWho Stray and the Men Who Love Them.
He especially recommends the audiobook.
Which is narrated by Rose Caraway,an erotica writer who is also
known as the sexy librarian.
Venus Cuckoldress's podcast is theVenus Cuckoldress Podcast, and you
(33:28):
can find that at venuscuckoldress.comor wherever you found this podcast.
Her cuckold matchmaking serviceis called Venus Connections, and
it's at venus connections.com.
Taboo Science is written andproduced by me, Ashley Hamer.
The theme song is by DannyLopatka of DLC Music.
Episode music is from Epidemic Sound.
(33:50):
I would love to see morereviews of this podcast.
If you have a minute to spare, pleaseleave a rating and review on Apple
Podcasts, and I might read it on the show.
One that warmed my heart recently wasfrom arosmar, who wrote, Heard of the show
and decided to give one episode a listen.
Then another, then another.
I binged every single episodeover a long weekend and now
(34:12):
eagerly await every new episode.
The number of times I've had myopinions changed on beliefs I held
deeply from listening to this showis a testament to the content,
quality, and effort put into it.
Thank you so much for anawesome review, arosmar.
The next episode may be the tabooist yet.
We're diving into thecontroversial world of zoophilia.
(34:35):
Hope you tune in.
I won't tell anyone.
It seems like everyone's calling everyone a cuck these days.
(00:05):
If you'd assumed this was a new insultmade up by trolls on 4chan just a few
years ago, You'd only be half right.
The full word is cuckold, and it's old.
It dates back to the 13th century, backwhen English was barely recognizable as
the vehicle now used for distinguishedphrasing like pussy in bio.
(00:29):
Cuckold refers to a man whosewife is sleeping with another man.
The ultimate emasculation, a sign that thehusband can't satisfy his wife sexually.
Not to mention, exert the controlover her behavior that was literally
required by law back in the day.
Plus, a cheating wife might get pregnant,forcing her husband to raise children
(00:50):
that aren't his without even knowing it.
It was the ultimate male anxiety.
So, cuckold was a popular term in theMiddle Ages and the early modern period.
Chaucer, Shakespeare, and even Germanand Italian authors used it a lot.
But, as norms changed, as genderroles became looser, as birth
(01:11):
control got better, things relaxed alittle bit, and we forgot about it.
Cuckold faded into obscurity.
But then, The internet.
With the rise of streaming video camean explosion in the kinds of porn
available, including cuckolding porn,where the turn on came from a husband
being degraded by his wife's infidelity.
(01:33):
That brought cuckolding back intothe popular consciousness, but Where
4chan and other right wing cornersof the internet got a hold of it,
shortened it to cuck, and startedthrowing it around as an insult for
anyone who didn't think like them.
Anyone who considered the other sideor apologized for their missteps.
During the US election in 2016,cuck servitive was even coined for
(01:55):
conservatives who opposed Donald Trump.
However, away from the insults andthe politics, there's a large group of
people who take cuckolding seriously.
and do it on purpose.
For some people, the anxietyand humiliation of cuckolding
is a serious turn on.
And for others, there's no humiliationin it at all, just a feeling of
(02:17):
power and a satisfaction in givingtheir partner a new experience.
And it's worth mentioning thatplenty of them are conservative.
Today, we're learning what makes aperson want their partner to step
out on them, what it does for them,and how it affects the relationship.
I'm Ashley Hamer and this is TabooScience, the podcast that answers the
(02:39):
questions you're not allowed to ask.
(03:02):
As we've established,cuckolding is anything but new.
In fact, it's so ingrained in ourculture that you, dear listener,
may have even done something thatoriginated in that middle age's
anxiety over becoming a cuckold.
David Ley (03:15):
You know how in pictures people be silly and they put up fingers
behind somebody else's head, right?
Oh, it's bunny ears.
No, it's not bunny ears.
It's an ancient signthat you're a cuckold.
Ashley (03:29):
That's Dr.
David Ley.
David Ley (03:31):
I'm a clinical psychologist and a sex therapist.
I'm based in Albuquerque, New Mexico.
And I have sort of an interesting career.
Day job as a traditionalpsychologist running a large
mental health organization.
And years ago I started workingwith alternative sexuality issues.
And I ended up writing my first bookcalled Insatiable Wives, Women Who Stray
and Men Who Love Them about cuckoldingand hotwifing and the psychology of it.
(03:56):
And that really, you know, kind ofcatapulted me onto this interesting
career where now I do training andspeaking and writing and therapy around
the world around sexuality issues.
Ashley (04:08):
There's one key difference between the cuckolding of yesteryear
and the cuckolding of today, though.
There's And that difference is consent.
David Ley (04:16):
Now it is men typically who go to their wives and say, Hey, I think it'd
be really hot to see you with another man.
And they use the term cuckolding.
They call it cuckolding, but it'sdifferent because it's consensual.
And it has become, um, a lifestyle,you know, kind of like swinging.
(04:38):
It's a form of consensual nonmonogamy, but different from
swinging, different from polyamory.
Cuckolding is primarily focused onthe wife having recreational sex
with other men, and typically thehusband is monogamous to the wife.
(05:00):
And remember how I mentioned that somepeople are in it for the humiliation
and others are in it for the power?
Those two subsets have different names.
Cuckolding specifically is usuallycentered on the humiliation
and submissiveness elements.
Where cuckolding oftentimes involvessome forms of submissiveness by the
(05:21):
husband, oftentimes humiliation, sometimeshumiliation for their penis size, small
penis humiliation, which is anotherfetish, can come in here, Um, sometimes
there's forced bisexuality, sometimesit can involve some pretty explicit, you
know, kind of BDSM kind of submissiveness.
Those elements are notpresent in hotwifing.
Ashley (05:43):
Hotwifing.
Like, look how hot my wife is, I betyou'd like to enjoy a night with her.
David Ley (05:49):
Which looks a bit more like swinging, but is more focused on the
husband sharing the wife with other men,and typically the husband participating.
Ashley (05:59):
The wife in these scenarios is often called the
cuckoldress, but not always.
David Ley (06:04):
There's even a new term called stag vixen, which people are
embracing and saying, oh, you know, thehusband saying, I'm not a humiliated
cuckold, I'm a stag, and I love sharingmy vixen hot wife with other men.
Venus Cuckoldress (06:20):
There's definitely, like, different paths where people
fall onto the doorstep of cuckolding.
Definitely very different paths.
Ashley (06:28):
That is Venus Cuckoldress, host of the Venus Cuckoldress podcast,
which shares tips and advice abouthow to get into and how to make the
most out of a cuckolding relationship.
She's also the founder ofVenus Connections, cuckolding
relationship, which seems tobe the only one of its kind.
Venus Cuckoldress (06:47):
It's usually something that begins with a couple
who've been together for a very longtime and they could start with swinging
and then the guy realizes, oh, I justactually really like watching my wife.
Like, I don't, I'm not reallyinterested in these other women.
That's a lot of the timewhere this comes from.
There's the other path, whichis through the Kink BDSM door.
(07:11):
And so that's where this is partof, uh, like a list of other kinks
and fetishes and things like that,that somebody's interested in.
Um, or this kind of falls into thesexual denial and tease and denial
and humiliation part of kink.
And so therefore that's where the doorthat they take to land on cuckolding.
Ashley (07:32):
You may have noticed that all of this is exclusively about
what a straight partnered man wants.
We'll get into other genders andorientations in a second, but it's worth
mentioning that straight men are far andaway the most likely to be into cuckolding
because of gendered expectationsabout how a man should be, what he
should want, and how he should behave.
(07:54):
Flipping those expectations is taboo,and that's often what makes it hot.
David Ley (07:59):
It is men seeking escape from the burden of having to maintain
this rigid, macho identity that is workand sometimes doesn't feel natural.
You know, the real man is the guywhose wife isn't cheating on him
(08:20):
and would never cheat on him becauseshe doesn't need another man.
He can satisfy her.
And that's a lot of work sometimes.
And so it's not by accident thatcuckolding as a fantasy in men appears
most common in communities and cultureswith very rigid gender stereotypes.
(08:43):
Cuckolding appears to be oneof the more common fantasies in
conservatives in the United States.
Cuckolding is quite popular as a fantasyin more macho countries with rigid gender
stereotypes like Brazil, Italy, Russia.
(09:03):
You know, the more taboo you makesomething, the more exciting that
thing becomes for some people.
And so for some people, the idea of givingup being the macho man whose wife would
never cheat on him becomes pretty sexy.
Ashley (09:21):
If you've listened to the BDSM episode, you might be having
the same a ha moment that I am.
Wait.
In egalitarian countries wherewomen have more power, women want
to give up power in the bedroom.
And now you're telling me that incountries where men have all the power?
Men want to give up power in the bedroom?
Humans are really complex, but boy arewe predictable in some important ways.
(09:45):
But what about the humiliation aspect?
That's also a big element in BDSM,and this series hasn't really
investigated where that kink comes from.
And as you'd expect, there are a lotof different places it might come from.
David Ley (09:59):
There's no easy answer.
This is human psychology andsexuality, so there's a million
different answers, right?
Human sexuality is highlyoverdetermined and multiply influenced.
Ashley (10:11):
Overdetermined means there are more causes than would
be necessary to cause and effect.
Multiply influenced means thereare many interacting causes.
Put another way, the reasons behindhuman sexuality are a big old mess.
David Ley (10:24):
But all that said, some of the best kind of
explanations or reasons that I see,
one
is people get to experiencesomething that they think they can't
(10:44):
survive, and then they survive it.
Ashley (10:47):
Like a horror movie, sort of.
David Ley (10:49):
Yeah, yeah, that's a good, yeah, or riding a
rollercoaster kind of thing.
Yeah, it's funny because I see menthat have average size penises,
or even large penises, Reallyenjoy small penis humiliation.
And it's like, what the fuck?
What the fuck is going on here, right?
Well, my argument as a psychologistgetting inside these guys brains,
(11:10):
right, is that they have internalizedthe, the idea or belief that being
shamed for having a small penis isthe worst possible thing in the world.
That being a man with a smallpenis means you're not masculine
enough and not manly enough.
And that is horrifying.
And then they experience it, andsurvive it, and overcome it, and find
(11:38):
that it's not the end of the world.
And They get to give up trying so hard.
Venus Cuckoldress (11:48):
For some guys who I talked to, their origin story is from
an instance where their partner, she didcheat on him and he did find out about it.
And at first he was devastated, butthen oddly very turned on by it and
wanted all the details about it.
And that can be such a weird thingfor guys to process in their mind.
(12:08):
Cause they're like, I shouldn't.
be turned on by this.
Why am I turned on by this?
This makes no sense.
But that's how some guys do realizelike, I actually am into this.
And I don't know if it's just eroticizingyour deepest fears, but like, it is that
that's where the angst comes from, too.
Because it's just like thisdoes feel wrong and this very
(12:30):
taboo, but it's also very hot.
Ashley (12:34):
So that's a reason for some people.
Humiliation play can give you achance to experience your fears in a
safe, controlled environment so youcan realize they're not that bad.
There's also a theory that humiliation isa way to escape your own self awareness.
Just as cuckolding can be a way forpowerful men to let go of some of
that power, humiliation in generalcan be a way for people to let go
(12:57):
of worrying about their self image,maintaining their dignity, and
controlling how other people see them.
Makes you wonder if celebrities andsocial media influencers have higher
rates of humiliation kinks, right?
Another part of the appeal ofhumiliation came up in my conversation
with BDSM educator Lena Dune.
She plays with cuckolding in herown BDSM scenes, and the humiliation
(13:20):
aspect is a big plus for her.
Lina Dune (13:22):
For me, there are scenes where I'll be left out and I'll be like, Yeah,
I really want to be left out of this.
And I want to hear why she'sbetter than me and why you're
never going to touch me again.
And that's how it plays out for me.
And the way that that reallyfeels is yes, I'm definitely
eroticizing those feelings of shame.
But then I also feel very seen actuallyby my partner because, you know, you
(13:47):
can't really Be humiliated and playedwith in that way without someone really
seeing and understanding you and caringabout you and not taking it too far.
I've heard people say that humiliation canfeel more heartwarming than praise because
like, we've all heard the praise words,but if you know the word that makes me
feel, you know, kind of exposed that ismore on the humiliation side of things,
(14:08):
you're like, oh wow, okay, you reallyknow me, you really see me, I get it.
Ashley (14:12):
You might notice that Lena is not a straight cis man, and
yet she's into being a cuckold.
How common is it for the genderroles to be reversed in this?
David Ley (14:22):
There is a flavor of non monogamy that, uh, is focused on the
wife being monogamous and encouragingthe husband to be with other men.
Sometimes other men,but usually other women.
And it's called Cuckqueening, althoughit's spelled in an interesting way.
You would think it would be C U C KQ U E E N I N G, but it's Q U E A N I
(14:47):
N G, and I have no earthly idea why.
Um, I'm sure that there's an interestingetymological reason, and somebody out
there can, can find it and send it to me.
Ashley (14:57):
Hi, Dr.
Ley.
Long time listener, first time caller, andI figured out why it's spelled that way.
I have to say, my first assumptionwas that it was because the
non monogamy community justloves coming up with new words.
See, compersion.
But it's actually much,much, much older than that.
Like, it's almost as old asthe word cuckolding itself.
(15:18):
That spelling of queen is fromMiddle English, and refers to
a low woman, a harlot or hussy,basically the opposite of Q U E E N.
So in the 15th century, people startedsaying cuck queen to mean a lowly woman
whose husband was cheating on her.
And there you have it!
David Ley (15:37):
Justin Lehmiller has done some research around this for his book
called Tell Me What You Want About SexualFantasies and he found about 45 percent
of men, um, report a fantasy of seeingtheir wife or girlfriend with other men.
So it's extremely common.
Cuckweening in w yeah.
Cuckweening in women seems far,far, far, far less, less common.
Venus Cuckoldress (15:58):
From what I've, like, my experience and what I've
come across, I think I'm only in thelast Almost a decade come across two
women who identified as a Cuck Queen.
That's not to say that there aren'tmore women out there, but I just
don't feel like there's a lotof spaces for them online where
(16:19):
they feel like this is for me.
David Ley (16:21):
You know, there are probably some evolutionary
reasons playing into this.
Certainly, I think that there are socialand cultural reasons playing into that.
Um, a lot of the women that go intocuckolding are oftentimes afraid
to do so for fear of slut shaming.
Because again, remember, womenthat were exposed to engaging
in cuckolding historically,um, were horrifically punished.
(16:43):
One reason I think women would be,uh, you know, certainly loathe to
encourage cuck queening, um, would befear of losing their husband, of course.
Ashley (16:52):
This makes sense.
If there's an actual riskof something happening, it's
not going to be hot for you.
And studies show that men docheat slightly more often than
women, though that's becoming lesstrue with younger generations.
But also, women historically have had alot more to lose by losing their husbands
than husbands have by losing their wives.
In single breadwinner households,your husband is kind of your lifeline.
(17:16):
That's less common thesedays, but not by much.
In 2011, just 15 percent ofhouseholds with children had the
mother as the primary provider.
David Ley (17:26):
One of my supervisees, a lady named Carolyn Lee, she did an
informal study of cuck cleaning thatshe's still working on writing up for
a project, and one of the things thatI encouraged her to look at was, are
women doing it because it turns them on?
Or are women letting their husbandhave sex with other women because
(17:50):
they feel like if they don't, theirhusband would leave them, right?
So is this kind of a devil'sbargain sort of thing?
And it doesn't appear so.
The women that she was able tointerview that are engaging in
cuckqueening are doing so specificallybecause it is hot for them.
Ashley (18:07):
If there are cuckqueens listening, I want you to know that I believe in you.
You are not Bigfoot, and I know you exist.
But it just seems like women arenot asking their husbands to step
out on them nearly as much ashusbands are asking their wives to.
\When we come back, we're talking aboutwhether gay men are into cuckolding,
what the other two people in thisarrangement get out of it, and how
(18:30):
to get started, if you want to.
Stay tuned.
Okay, so what about peoplewho aren't straight?
In 2008, Dan Savage wrote in his legendarysex advice column, Savage Love, that
(18:52):
gay men don't have cuckolding fantasiesbecause there's no risk of their partner
getting pregnant with another man's child.
When some other guy is doing, say, myboyfriend or being done by him, it doesn't
necessarily mean I'm being violated,humiliated, kicked out of my own bed, etc.
It usually just means I'mhaving a three way, end quote.
(19:13):
Well, tons of gay men wrote in tosay that they themselves actually
did have a cuckolding fantasy.
And Dr.
Ley and Dr.
Justin Lehmiller, who you'll hear ona future episode, collaborated with
Dan Savage to find data on this.
First, via porn.
Turns out that it was a kink on the rise.
Searches for cuckold on Pornhubpages featuring gay male material
(19:37):
nearly doubled from 2014 to 2016.
When the researchers asked gay men abouttheir cuckolding fantasies, they were
different than those of straight men.
Much less focus on the size of theother man's penis, much more interest
in being there in the room to watch.
So.
There is some diversity of gender andorientation here, despite the fact that
(19:57):
we have and will continue to mostly referto husband cuckolds and their wives.
But what about those wives?
What did they get out of it?
Take it from someonewho absolutely loves it.
Venus started out in the worldof swinging as a solo woman, a
unicorn, and she had a lot of fun.
But there were a lot of rulesthat didn't quite do it for her.
Venus Cuckoldress (20:20):
So for a few years there, I was just like, well, I'm screwed.
Like, there's, I'm never goingto find what I think I want
because that's too selfish.
There's no guy that'sgoing to sign up for that.
And then I was on Tinder and this guy Ihad on my profile, I don't want monogamy.
And he must have been like, Oh, she mightbe open to this kind of relationship.
(20:42):
He didn't bring it up right away.
He was asking me aboutmy different partners and
experiences and stuff like that.
And then he sort of slowlybrought it up to me.
And I was in disbelief.
I was like, What are you talking about?
This sounds like way too good to be true.
This actually exists?
I had no idea.
(21:02):
So we started dating andoh my god, was it ever fun.
Like, I was just like, thisis the relationship for me.
It was, it was almost likeI felt like, what fit me?
And I'm like, this is exactly what I want.
Ashley (21:16):
And it's not just Venus.
She's seen tons of relationshipsblossom from this dynamic.
And a lot of the time, it's becauseit's a much bigger benefit to the
woman than either person realized.
Venus Cuckoldress (21:34):
Guys who have, you know, ventured into this with their wife
and witnessed her explore her sexualitywith other people, they say one of the
most unexpected benefits for them, for theguy, has been being able to witness that.
Being able to witness her actuallyhave this renewed self confidence
(21:57):
and this sexual prowess and likejust watching her blossom as this
incredible sexual woman and they get towitness that and they are just in awe.
This ends up really as a celebration ofher sexuality instead of the you know,
oppression or jealousy of her sexuality.
(22:17):
This is a celebration.
He is witnessing her havethis joy and he's feeling joy.
And so they didn't realize that.
The women didn't realize that.
The guys didn't realize that.
But this is what it becomes.
David Ley (22:30):
One woman, she said, when another man tells me that I'm hot and
he wants to have sex with me, it reallymakes me feel really good about myself.
And I said, and that doesn't workthat way when your husband says it.
And she says, no, that's his job.
He's supposed to say that.
But when another man saysit, it's real, right?
(22:52):
She also said, though, she described thatAt one point, her daughter, her teenage
daughter came to her and said, you know,Mom, something's different because you're
acting so confident and you're assertivein a way that I've never seen you before.
And the wife did not tell thedaughter, Oh yeah, it's cause I'm
(23:15):
having sex with all these other guys.
But the daughter saw.
That this had become a placeof empowerment for the wife
that her mother had never had.
Ashley (23:40):
There's a third group of people involved in this dynamic
who we haven't talked about yet.
The other guy, or what thecuckolding community calls the bull.
This is where things can get tricky.
David Ley (23:51):
Cuckold couples have told me that they actually have trouble
finding guys that they can trust enoughto have sex with the wife because
they need a guy that is trustworthyenough to treat the wife well.
and to respect their marriage.
But a lot of guys that would treat thewife well and respect their marriage
(24:15):
don't want to poach on the marriagebecause that feels unethical, right?
So it's a dilemma.
The couples have to work to find guysthat they can share the wife with
and have it be a positive experience.
And so there's a lot of dialogueabout that within these communities.
Venus Cuckoldress (24:33):
People fail to understand, like, the bull
is actually a big part of thisand, and not just somebody to
step in and do this sexual act.
Like, a bull is someone who enjoysit and gets as excited about it
as I do about being a cuckoldress.
Like, that is somebody who,who really loves this dynamic.
(24:55):
They really enjoy being partof this dynamic within couples.
and they know how to kind of getto know each dynamic that each
couple has, which is so uniqueand play with that and sometimes
push boundaries if they consent..
Ashley (25:10):
But there's another quality that many couples, especially couples in the U.
S., look for in a bull.
And that is his race.
David Ley (25:19):
There's a lot of fantasy about the white wife being with Black men.
Some folks have expressedconcern that this is racism.
It is, in my opinion, anexpression of the racial taboo and
racial conflict in our culture.
I think if we lived in a society thatwasn't struggling with racism, people
wouldn't be fantasizing about it.
Venus Cuckoldress (25:40):
So this was something that my first cuck boyfriend brought up
when I was looking for partners for bulls.
And he was like, well,what about a black guy?
And where I live, there'sjust not very many of them.
Ashley (25:51):
Venus lives in Vancouver, Canada, where the black
population is less than 2%.
Venus Cuckoldress (25:56):
And I've had great experiences with Black men before, so I
was like, okay, this sounds like a greatopportunity to, and so this was way back
when Craigslist Personals was a thing.
So I put an ad on there, and it was great.
I actually came up withsome excellent partners.
So that was something that Ibecame interested in, in the
beginning, but it wasn't reallylike, part of any humiliation kind
(26:18):
of teasing or anything like that.
It was just, I really enjoyedthe experiences that I'd had.
And so I wanted to have that again.
It wasn't until I started blogging andpodcasting that I realized in the United
States, this is a really big thing.
And it does tie in with the humiliationteasing part for some couples.
(26:39):
For some couples, this is aboutthe taboo of a black guy you.
being intimate with a white woman.
And so I was just like, really?
Like, I didn't know.
I didn't know about that part of it.
And then I started to learnabout what's called race play and
BDSM and what that is all about.
Ashley (26:57):
Venus has had several Black Bulls on her podcast who really
enjoy race play and the dynamicsof being with white couples.
I'll link to thoseepisodes in the show notes.
Venus Cuckoldress (27:06):
And then I started to understand the appeal of it, but
when it originates from a very racistpoint, I really don't like that, and
I don't think that's a very good partof this kind of lifestyle to see.
I especially don't like itwhen people treat black bulls
(27:29):
like they're not human beings.
Like they are just a body part to use.
And that pisses me off hugely.
It makes me really mad.
We have definitely, there'sroom for improvement within the
lifestyle and that's one of them.
David Ley (27:47):
Another one of my supervisees, Tammy Fisher, did a
study of the experiences of Blackmen in cuckolding relationships.
And so these are men that kind oftheir hobby is to be a bull and to
go out and have sex with white wives.
There's a Oftentimes a lot ofconcern that these men are being
(28:07):
exploited and stigmatized andtreated in in inappropriate
or non consensual racial ways.
And what Tammy found was thatby and large, most of these men
experience it in very positive ways.
They don't have negative experiences.
And in what I thought was one of the mostfascinating findings, The men reported
(28:29):
that they very often saw white couplesbecome less racist through the process
of sharing the wife with black men.
Because they, they started to develop arelationship with these black men and they
started to view the men as human being.
(28:52):
And, uh, Some of them even reported thatthey saw these white couples go from
being these pretty conservative, rememberconservative background, being these
pretty conservative folks with kind ofracial attitudes, now becoming involved
in anti racism activities because theyhave learned to care about these black
(29:13):
men through the process of really hot sex.
Ashley (29:18):
This is also not the first time we've heard this.
In the BDSM episode, Lena Dunementioned professional dominatrixes,
sex workers, who are some of themost vulnerable members of society,
and they work with their white maleclients on their misogyny, racism,
and dismantling their privilege.
Sex and kink are intimate acts, andthey can be a chance to be intimate
(29:40):
with a kind of person you hardly everencounter in your day to day life.
Who knew that kink could save the world?
So, if this dynamic appeals toyou, how do you get started?
(30:04):
Both Dr.
Ley and Venus said the same thing.
Go slow.
David Ley (30:10):
This can be such an exciting fantasy and so energizing and
compelling that it can be really easy.
to jump in over your head.
Venus Cuckoldress (30:26):
I think there's this pressure that couples feel where they
have to, like it's not cuckolding unlessshe actually sleeps with somebody else.
I would say 90 percent of the funof this kind of relationship is
not me sleeping with another guy.
Most of the fun is that kind of likelittle game that you play with your
partner where you're talking about it,where you're flirting around with it
(30:48):
and you're, you're having fun with it.
So if you're If you're a new coupleand you're like, this is fun, this
is great, don't be pressured toactually do something in person.
David Ley (31:02):
For couples that want to explore this, they
need to tiptoe into the water.
This sounds like shameless self promotion,but one of the ways that couples tiptoe
into this is by getting the audio book ofmy book, Insatiable Wives, and going on
a road trip together and listening to it.
And then using it as an opportunityto talk with each other about how they
(31:25):
feel or their reactions or what theythink is sexy and exciting about it.
Ashley (31:34):
And if you find yourself struggling with these feelings,
know that you're perfectly okay.
Venus Cuckoldress (31:40):
Cucks are not weak.
Cucks are very strong.
Emotionally strong.
And they are so loved,just the way that they are.
There's so much shamethat guys are carrying.
Because of this, they're soembarrassed about being into this.
They feel like it's a curse.
(32:01):
They hate themselves for it.
One minute, they love it.
They're very turned on by it.
And the next minute, they're like, Oh,I feel awful about myself about though.
I don't want to be into this.
Why can't I be into some otherkind of fetish or fantasy?
There's this self hatred going onwith a lot of these guys out there
who are fantasizing about this andwant this and that's really shitty.
(32:25):
And my aim is to let people knowlike, Hey, Cucks are amazing.
They are the best partnersthat you could ever want.
Like they're selfless, like they'regenerous and they're trusting and like,
and they're just amazing human beings.
And.
If everybody understood that, I feellike the guys who are really struggling
(32:49):
with themselves for liking this mightstart to accept themselves and that's
ultimately what I hope would happen.
Ashley (33:04):
Thanks for listening.
My deepest gratitude to Dr.
David Leigh and Venus Cuckoldress.
Dr.
Ley's book is Insatiable Wives, WomenWho Stray and the Men Who Love Them.
He especially recommends the audiobook.
Which is narrated by Rose Caraway,an erotica writer who is also
known as the sexy librarian.
Venus Cuckoldress's podcast is theVenus Cuckoldress Podcast, and you
(33:28):
can find that at venuscuckoldress.comor wherever you found this podcast.
Her cuckold matchmaking serviceis called Venus Connections, and
it's at venus connections.com.
Taboo Science is written andproduced by me, Ashley Hamer.
The theme song is by DannyLopatka of DLC Music.
Episode music is from Epidemic Sound.
(33:50):
I would love to see morereviews of this podcast.
If you have a minute to spare, pleaseleave a rating and review on Apple
Podcasts, and I might read it on the show.
One that warmed my heart recently wasfrom arosmar, who wrote, Heard of the show
and decided to give one episode a listen.
Then another, then another.
I binged every single episodeover a long weekend and now
(34:12):
eagerly await every new episode.
The number of times I've had myopinions changed on beliefs I held
deeply from listening to this showis a testament to the content,
quality, and effort put into it.
Thank you so much for anawesome review, arosmar.
The next episode may be the tabooist yet.
We're diving into thecontroversial world of zoophilia.
(34:35):
Hope you tune in.
I won't tell anyone.
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