June 13, 2024 • 34 mins
You've definitely wondered why some grown adults like to wear diapers—so let's get into it. In today's episode, we rip off the velcro to understand the world of of ABDL (Adult Baby/Diaper Lovers) and uncover the diverse desires and expressions within this often misunderstood community. From the psychological and emotional aspects to the truly prolific amount of gear options, we explore what draws people to this kink and how it can be a source of comfort, coping, and even healing. With the help of researcher B. Terrance Grey, The Usual Bet podcast hosts and age players Sophie & Chloe, and veteran kinkster Benny, we also tackle the tough stuff like shame, stigma, and navigating relationships. So grab your favorite sippy cup, settle in, and join us for a judgment-free journey into the heart of this fascinating community.
Resources from B. Terrance Grey:
- Understanding Infantilism: https://understanding.infantilism.org/
Resources from Sophie & Chloe:
- The Usual Bet podcast: https://episodes.fm/1489108968
- The Usual Bet on X: https://x.com/TheUsualBet
- Sophie on X: https://x.com/TheUsualSophie
- Chloe on X: https://x.com/TheUsualChloe
Resources from Benny:
- Twisted Tryst: https://www.twistedtryst.com/
See citations and a transcript here: https://www.tabooscience.show/045-abdl-age-play-diapers/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ashley (00:00):
When an adult wears diapers in a TV show or movie, it's meant
to signal one of three things.
One is that they've lost theirdignity, either because their health
is deteriorating, or because someone'sforced them to play the part of a baby.
In the 2005 comedy thriller Bad Girlsfrom Valley High, A curse makes three
(00:22):
hot teen girls start to rapidly age,forcing them to wear diapers to cope.
And in one episode of The Simpsons,the alcoholic putz Barney is seen
handing out flyers for a baby furniturestore in a diaper and baby bonnet.
A passerby actually tellshim, you sicken me, before his
diaper falls off and blows away.
(00:44):
He chases it and then turns thecorner to see his own mother.
Pop culture teaches us thatwearing a diaper as an adult
is the ultimate humiliation.
Another reason characters mightwear a diaper is for deception.
There are countless cartoons wherethe villain dresses up as a baby
in order to get pity from the hero,usually resulting in their own loss
(01:08):
of dignity when they're pampered andcoddled like a baby against their will.
In the Jetsons, it's a jewel thief.
In Looney Tunes, it's a tiny bank robber.
In the 2008 Batman animatedseries, it's crime boss Babyface
trying to bust out of jail.
According to pop culture, dressingas a baby is a great way to fool
(01:28):
people into being nice to you.
The final major reason a grown adultmight wear diapers in TV and film is
that their mental health is suffering.
In Spongebob Squarepants, theornery Squidward gets hit in
the head and regresses to ababy like state as a result.
In Rugrats, Tommy's dad Stu falls offthe roof and Does the exact same thing!
(01:53):
Again, pop culture is there to letus know that adults who want to be
babies have mental health issues.
But there's a large, diverse groupof adults who like to dress up in
diapers, who are mentally sound,aren't trying to deceive anybody, and
don't consider diapers humiliation.
(02:13):
Or do, and like it that way.
And today, we're going to find outwhy diapers are appealing to them,
the many different desires andexpressions within this community,
and how a diaper is sometimes just aleather collar in a different form.
I'm Ashley Hamer and this is TabooScience, the podcast that answers the
(02:34):
questions you're not allowed to ask.
(02:57):
So to get some basics out of the way,the name of this community of people who
like wearing diapers is an acronym, ABDL.
Adult Babies and Diaper Lovers.
Sometimes written as AdultBabies slash Diaper Lovers.
Grey (03:11):
ABDL is a diverse community of adults.
who enjoy wearing diapers andor role playing as babies.
On the DL end of things,it is often sexual.
Ashley (03:22):
That is, for people who are more in it for the diapers themselves,
it's usually because they get sexualgratification from some aspect or
aspects of wearing, feeling, seeing, andeven hearing the crinkle of a diaper.
Grey (03:35):
On the AB end of things, there it becomes a little less
like what you Your listeners mightimagine they enjoy dressing as
babies and role playing as babies.
This may involve pacifiers,stuffed animals, etc.
Now, interestingly, they may separateconventional sexuality from baby play.
(03:55):
They also might embrace the role or enjoythe humiliation and loss of control.
Ashley (04:00):
That is B.
Terrance Grey, an amateur researcherand the creator of the incredible ABDL
resource UnderstandingInfantilism.
org, which has been goingstrong for nearly 30 years.
Grey performed some of the firstdemographic studies of the ABDL community
through his own web surveys, and haspublished in several academic journals.
(04:21):
And as Grey said, thiscommunity is diverse.
It's not like there are adult babiesand diaper lovers and that's it.
Grey (04:29):
They're often discussed as two ends to a spectrum, but it is a continuum.
The mode for the communityis actually to be mostly DL.
Ashley (04:39):
Interesting.
So like, what you mean by that islike, on that continuum, everyone's
pretty much into diapers but not asmany are into like the ageplay part?
Grey (04:48):
Most are into diapers.
Some aren't into the ageplay.
Yeah.
Sophie (04:51):
ABDL is that term that you search.
It's the term you see.
And it's interesting because a lot ofpeople don't identify that way anymore.
I remember when I first got intothe ABDL community, it was a
thing that you had to identify.
Either you were an adult babyor you were a diaper lover and
there really wasn't other options.
Nowadays we haverelationships, um, like DDLG.
(05:14):
which is Daddy Dom Little Girl, um,or CGL, which is Caregiver Little, and
you see a lot more people identify aslittles or bigs or caregivers these days.
Yep.
Oh, for the reference,I identify as a little.
Me too.
Ashley (05:28):
That is Sophie and Chloe, cohosts of the podcast The Usual
Bet, an 18 and up age play podcastthat focuses on ABDL topics.
The name refers to the bet the cohosts make during every episode.
Whoever loses has to wear adiaper on the next episode.
One reason that many people inthe ABDL community don't use the
(05:48):
term adult baby is because not allidentify with a baby type character.
Some roleplay is slightly older.
Toddlers, or even primary school kids.
Rather than littles, people withthat older identity sometimes
call themselves middles.
Which brings me to the firstquestion you might be asking.
Is this a pedophile thing?
(06:11):
As you might imagine, that is aquestion people in the ABDL community
are used to, and very ready to answer.
Sophie (06:20):
This is like, Ageplay 101, first thing you gotta talk about, first thing
you deal with, Ageplay, kink, ABDL stuffis 18 Yeah, adults only, no minors.
We are adults.
We consent to the thingsthat we are doing.
We are playing with this concept ofbeing younger and fitting in this space,
and we have to follow specific rules.
(06:40):
Rules with consent that go alongwith that is with any kink.
You need to set boundaries.
You need to set your limits.
You have to be responsible foryour own actions, and that's not
something you can unilaterallydepend on with a minor because
they can't consent to these things.
We have zero interaction with minors and Ithink like it's, it's one of those things
(07:04):
that the ABDL community is extremelyvigilant about because of associations.
Realistically hypervigilant.
Yeah, and the way that the publicperception has always associated
these two things together.
Mm hmm.
We do so much to do our best to drawthese lines very, very firmly that
this is not an acceptable side of this.
Chloe (07:26):
Absolutely.
Um, I also think it's important tonote, like, the attraction stuff.
It is not too Childish things.
It's about being put in the positionof, like, a childish situation of, like,
having limits put on you, or constraints,or things that take away your autonomy.
It's BDSM.
It's, it's like a power play.
Give and take.
It is not, oh, I find childishthings attractive or something.
(07:49):
It's, oh, I am embarrassed tohave been put in this situation.
I, I have lost power.
by being put in a situation andI think that's where you go back
into that traditional like dom subpower play stuff and that's where
a lot of the sexual aspects are.
Sophie (08:05):
A majority of age play in ABDL is just kink with a
really cutesy filter over it.
That's, that's reallywhat you're playing with.
Ashley (08:16):
This isn't true for everyone in the ABDL community.
Not everyone gets off on humiliationor anything you'd find in BDSM.
There are as many ways to be in theABDL community as there are people,
and how it looks in one person'slife or bedroom may be completely
different from someone else's.
ABDL also lends itself toa lot of different kinks.
(08:38):
Looking at you, furries.
So the limit is truly your imagination.
But for some people, the humiliationand shame of being an adult
wearing a diaper is a real turn on.
Benny (08:51):
One aspect for a lot of people, and myself included, can be that this
is relatively embarrassing, right?
Anything having to do with, like,bodily needs, and especially bathroom
related needs, is something most adults,and I'm certainly one of them, find
embarrassing to interact with otherpeople about, or even just with ourselves.
Ashley (09:10):
That is Benny, who's a member of the board of directors
for an event called Twisted Trist,which is a sort of summer camp for
kinksters, and a former manager at theChicago BDSM club Galleria Domain 2.
He also identifies as a little.
Benny (09:25):
But then when we kind of push past that humiliation aspect, it can be
like deeply connecting between people.
So when I get a chance to playwith this with other people, the
experience of changing someone else'sdiaper, somebody changing mine.
Sort of being interacting with thaton an ongoing basis feels really
intimate in a way that can be likea little bit invasive, a little bit
caretaking, or a lot caretaking.
(09:47):
Um, all of those different emotionalaspects are important to me.
Chloe (09:51):
It's comforting, um, it's cute.
I like being cute.
It is a great coping mechanism for, like,stress or, or anxiety or all those things.
It's a way to take a step back from thetoils and stress of daily life and, like,
enter into a safe, comfortable space.
I think all of kink offers thatin its own way, um, and this is
(10:15):
a very straightforward way and my
Sophie (10:19):
I think like, ageplay and ABDL is a very cutesy way of stepping
into that space where a lot of otherkinks, you know, focus on other
elements of submission and stuff.
HBlaze still does thatin a lot of regards.
You still have to be dependent on someoneor, like, fall into the submissive
category, this, this role where youaren't in charge of things, and it's
(10:43):
very freeing to let someone else havecontrol or, you know, be in situations
where even you can kind of baby yourselfa little bit sometimes, too, where you
set up a situation where you don't havecontrol over that or you, you can get
through difficult things a lot easier.
Ashley (11:19):
What about diapers themselves?
They're big, they're awkward,they get heavy when they're wet,
they make a sound when they move,they make people walk funny.
What of that could possibly be appealing?
Well, for a certainperson, all of the above.
Benny (11:36):
I like the A lot of the physical sensations associated.
So, I really like plastic backeddisposable diapers as my preference.
The smooth plastic undermy fingers is really good.
The sensation of, like, thickness andwarmness and, um, If you're wearing
a really good quality diaper, youkind of can't forget that it's there.
(11:58):
Uh, right, like it's a little bitof like a constant reminder of
something going on with your body.
And then the, the joke I often make, butI, I, it's true, is that I think most
people like the idea of something warm,wet, and squishy around their genitals.
Right, like that, you know, just froma purely sort of physical perspective
that can do it for some people, andI guess I'm one of those people.
Sophie (12:20):
Diapers are really core to this kink, foundational for
this kink, and both Chloe and Iare into this aspect of this kink.
Chloe (12:29):
I think I'd equate it, uh, if I can like equate it to a different kink.
It's kind of like a collar, right?
Like, Like, Functionally in terms oflike what it does in like terms of
the like power dynamic and all that.
Sophie (12:40):
Yes, you're wearing this because this shows your status.
This puts you into this position,this lower submissive position.
Yeah.
On top of that for some peopleor even just some of the time,
Diapers are just comfortable.
They're nice, they're comforting, theybring a sense of, of just peace to it.
(13:05):
Childishness.
Yeah, it's kind of like going to bedin your favorite pajamas, you know?
Um, there's just thisserenity to them sometimes.
that for whatever reason reallyvibes with, with me and with
other people in the community.
Ashley (13:22):
But diapers were meant for babies who can't control
their own bodily functions.
Like, when you change a diaper, it'sbecause it's full of pee or poop.
Do adults in this communityuse them that way too?
Not all, but most do.
Benny (13:38):
Most people pee and most people don't.
We use the mass.
instead of poop.
Uh, not everybody does,but that's the most common.
People will say like peeing and messing.
Messing is less common,but certainly not uncommon.
And it is less common, but notuncommon to wear, but not use.
So the, the overlap between watersports, playing with urine and
(14:01):
playing with diapers is pretty high.
Ashley (14:03):
Next question.
Do people have sex in the diapers?
Benny (14:06):
Yes, people definitely have sex in the diapers.
It's, um, can be a little bit complicated.
So, if you put a hole in adisposable diaper, you are wrecking
the integrity of what is holdingeverything together, right?
So, people have done some very creativethings to try to make that less of a
disaster, or you just lean into the messand be like, this is gonna make a mess.
(14:28):
That's also fine, too.
Uh, there's lots of hand stuff for alot of people, cause getting hands.
Hands are toys or vibratorsor whatever inside of diapers.
Strap ons go outside them really nice.
There's a huge variety of ways to do it.
If you can think of a way to makeit work, someone has done that.
But yeah, people definitelyhave sex in diapers.
There's also, I think slightlymore common, is sex or sexual
(14:50):
play as a part of a diaper change.
So the diaper's coming off for a reason.
that make sense in context.
And then we're gonna like do some kind ofsexual play as a part of that process and
then often then put another diaper on.
That's a pretty common one becauseof the the context just sort of
makes sense there for people.
Ashley (15:10):
When we come back, we'll explore the other supplies a well
stocked age player might have,we'll uncover how people get into
this kink in the first place, andwe'll see the darker side of shame.
Stay tuned.
(15:30):
Diapers aren't the only piece of gearmany people in this community wear
to get into that baby-ish headspace.
In fact, to this outsider, A BDLmay be the kink with the most
and most ornate supplies andgear that I've ever come across.
You don't have to have all, or even anyof this stuff to participate in ABDL,
but for someone who has the budget, thesky is the limit for what you could buy.
Benny (15:55):
Yeah, I would say pacifiers are probably the second thing people buy.
People go for diapers first andpacifiers second, generally.
I mean, lots of variation.
But, there are a huge number ofpacifiers available out there now too.
They, they got inexpensive to produce.
And so, there's a wide variety, lots ofdifferent designs, lots of solid colors.
Grey (16:13):
More common items include pacifiers, bottles, nursing
bottles, and stuffed animals.
Benny (16:20):
And sippy cups and bottles and all of those kinds of things as well
are available and being sold and peoplewill make and sell like cute rattles
and, you know, baby blankets styledlike baby ones but that are bigger.
Just kind of everything you can think of.
Grey (16:37):
Clothing is also commonly present.
It would be affected byindividual tastes of course.
Benny (16:43):
Some people just want the diapers and they wear their adult clothing
and they're just the the diaper loverside of it or kind of minimalist.
Others want a whole wardrobe of cutepajamas and onesies and rompers and
dresses and all of that kind of stuff.
Onesies in particular, and by onesiesI specifically mean like a shirt
that snaps at the crotch, and thatpeople use that word to mean lots
(17:04):
of different kinds of products.
Sleepers with feet and whatever,but like, specifically I mean
the ones that snap at the crotch.
Those tend to be particularly popularbecause they help hold diapers in place.
Um, so they're like a functionalthing as well as being, uh, adorable.
Grey (17:18):
Now, one notable item is sissy clothing, and that's
something we should be aware of.
Because depending on the individual,they may dress as a very girlish baby,
as a way to express their identificationas a girlish baby, and others on the
other end of the AB subspectrum mightenjoy being dressed as a very girlish
(17:42):
baby to amplify the humiliation ofbeing not only a baby but a girl.
Ashley (17:48):
There are boy babies too, of course.
Benny (17:50):
For my little self, he can really lean into boycotted colors
and boycotted, you know, stuff.
And so for me, that means leaning intohaving a lot of, like a lot of blue
in his wardrobe, things like that.
And then a really strong attractionto boy characters in media.
So I like Sesame Street a lot.
Uh, Bert's my favorite character,that sort of thing, right?
(18:13):
And, and when I see other peopleplaying in a more masculine space
in the ABDL sense, and there aremany, it's not unusual, it does
tend to be those sorts of things.
It tends to be leaning into, you know,bright colors that focus a little bit
more on blue, characters that theyidentify as being more male coded, and
there are luckily lots of products.
(18:34):
You know, there are some companies thatare doing a really good job of making
sure that they've got Gender diversekinds of products available, uh, diapers
and clothing and stuff like that.
And then, if you've got a sky high budget
Grey (18:45):
They may even have custom furniture.
Custom furniture is quiteexpensive and difficult to source.
It also requires sufficient space tohave a room with the custom furniture.
So it's quite rare, but many ABDLindividuals would like to have a
custom nursery with their customfurniture and a layout that might
(19:07):
extend to quite a large range of items.
Ashley (19:14):
So how does a person start doing this kind of thing?
Is it from childhood?
Is it something you get into whena partner introduces it to you?
As with most things ABDL, the desirecan be planted in all sorts of ways.
Grey (19:28):
Some may have a lifelong desire, they can't tell you when it started,
but they would have either realizedit at some point or just accepted
that it was always there, seemingly.
Others may have been, as adults,introduced to a practice and
found that they enjoyed it.
(19:49):
Two groups would initiallyhave separate demographics.
The first group, which has a paraphiliaor a predisposition if it's not sexual.
They do tend to be male.
They do tend to have early ages of onset.
They also tend to be whiteand in the western culture.
However, that might bestrictly a cultural thing.
The second group that may have simplyexperimented and found that they enjoyed.
(20:14):
Those in contrast tend to be more women.
This too might be a strictlycultural thing at Department stores,
back when there were departmentstores, you would be able to get
footed sleepers in infant sizes andwomen's sizes, but not men's sizes.
In so many other ways, society tells womenthat it might be okay to be a princess
(20:37):
as an adult, then they would a male.
Ashley (20:41):
In fact, a common belief about the ABDL community
is that it's nearly all men.
That's something thatseems to be changing.
More women, both cis and trans,are joining the community.
That doesn't mean that womenweren't into this historically.
Instead, it could be a signof changing social dynamics.
As Benny told me, ABDL internetforums used to be toxic places for
(21:04):
women, and the community is graduallylearning to treat them better.
It's the story of a lot ofonline spaces for women.
It just seems like ABDL gotthe memo a little later.
But either way, according to research,men are more likely to get into
diapers and other ABDL proclivitiesearly in life, while women are
more likely to discover it later.
(21:24):
But even for those who get into it early,results from Grey's original survey
suggest it's probably not from birth.
Grey (21:31):
The particular type of diaper that an ABDL individual fantasizes
about will lag by about five yearsrelative to the type of diaper
that they may have been raised in.
Ashley (21:44):
Lag?
What do you mean?
Grey (21:46):
The type of diaper that And ABDL might fantasize about would be
the type of diaper that a youngerperson, five years younger on
average, would have been raised in.
This suggests a postnatalformative component.
This doesn't mean that, uh, the desireswere necessarily caused at an average
(22:07):
of five years of age, but that there ismaybe some later stage that occurs there.
Ashley (22:13):
Got it.
So, say, that possibly If they were fiveand saw babies wearing those diapers,
that's the diaper they thought about.
They didn't think about the diaperthat they themselves had on.
Grey (22:26):
It is rare for adults to be able to remember their own infancy, so they
may be reconstructing their own childhoodfrom what they observe in the community.
Now this is one aspect that makesthe ABDL community interesting
scientifically, because they dohave that clear postnatal component.
(22:47):
With other orientations andparaphilias, they could arguably
mainly genetic or prenatal.
Ashley (22:53):
This is super cool!
I mean, most kinks don't involve anyspecific objects from that far back in
a person's life, so ABDL is unique inthat scientists can potentially point
to something, in this case a specifictype of diaper, that gives some hint
as to when the interest started.
For Sophie and Chloe, theyboth felt like a desire to be a
(23:14):
little had always been with them.
Here's Sophie.
Sophie (23:18):
Even before I was 10 years old, I remember wanting to always
be the baby when we play house.
Um, I remember having a littlebrother who is significantly younger
than me and was in diapers and Iwould, like, Be jealous of that.
I remember being jealous.
I remember having my youngersister's toys and like wanting
(23:41):
to play with them and stuff.
So I think I've always been into this.
It didn't really come about tobeing like, Oh, this is a thing.
Like this is a thingother people are into.
Um, until I was maybe 13 or 14 andI was just talking to friends my
age on the internet, because that'sThat's how the internet was back then.
(24:03):
And it kind of grew into Like, Iwant to role play online as kind
of being younger or like beingtreated like a five year old.
And it just kind of developed from there.
And I didn't really learn about theABDL community or this kind of bigger
picture until maybe my mid teens.
And then I did my, you know,Best not to engage with it,
(24:26):
because no minors can kink.
Um, we always make jokes of like, ohyeah, we were into baby stuff, but
like, when we were 18 and no younger.
Um, but that's not inherently true.
It's just us trying todraw that, that fine line.
Uh, I do think this is something of,you know, It's always been a part of me.
It took a long time to acceptthat and it took me even longer to
(24:46):
appreciate and love that part of me.
Mm-Hmm.
. Chloe: Um, honestly, I have pretty much the same story, like impulses at an
early age, like wanting to be this way.
Not understanding, notunderstanding myself.
A lot of self hatred and likeshame that went along with that and
taking the greater part of my likeadolescence to understand this and
(25:08):
start to accept it before reaching.
18 and no younger, and, uh,like, joining the community.
Ashley (25:15):
For Benny, the discovery came later, but it fit like a puzzle piece
into things he was already doing.
Benny (25:22):
Playing with age aspect of it goes back to sort of my earliest understandings
of relationships and sexuality.
Uh, so even as an adolescent, I wassort of experimenting with those ideas.
Um, but in my early adulthood, as I cameinto the kink community, I discovered,
uh, that diaper fetishes were a thing.
Uh, and something about thatreally jumped out for me.
So, some people find this out aboutthemselves quite a bit younger.
(25:45):
Uh, but for me, it was inmy very early adulthood.
So, I sort of got exposed to that ideaand was just immediately fascinated,
um, and felt like it connected quitestrongly with the, um, the play that I
was already doing that had to do withvulnerability and youth and intimacy
in, uh, in slightly humiliating ways.
Aspects of that really kind of allresonated, uh, and so I started
(26:08):
giving diapering a try, uh, when Iwas in my very early 20s and, uh,
I have never walked away since.
Ashley (26:14):
Chloe and Benny are also representative of a pretty sizable
demographic in the ABDL space.
Trans folks.
For that community, there'sa lot to like about age play.
For one thing, diapers can be reallyfreeing for people with gender dysphoria.
Chloe (26:30):
It removes, like, the genital region, like, uh, that stuff, all
the dysphoria tied up in that, andjust totally removes it from play.
Sophie (26:37):
It's a gender unifying garment.
And, um, that can be really, uh, a boon.
Depending on how comfortable youare with your body and stuff.
Ashley (26:47):
But even more significantly, most trans folks didn't get a chance
to have a childhood as their gender.
And being able to relive that era, evena little bit, can be really therapeutic.
Benny (26:58):
One is that I'm a transmasculine person and I didn't get to have a boyhood.
So getting to experience myself as alittle, as an adult, allows me to have
a boyhood that I otherwise didn't have.
And so my little self tends tolean in really hard on like very
masculine childhood things in avery stereotypical way that isn't
(27:20):
necessarily how I actually view theworld as an adult, um, but is sort of
the way a toddler might view gender.
And it allows me to Access.
sort of emotional intimacy andcaregiving in a way that I think
I did have as a kid but manypeople just don't remember, right?
So we get to bring that feeling ofwhat we like want that experience of
(27:40):
feeling nurtured in that kind of wayand bring that into adulthood in a
way that we that many people don'tget and well you know once we're
older than pretty small children.
Ashley (27:56):
However, it's not all smiles and sippy cups.
Where there's shame for fun,there's often shame for real.
And ABDL is no different.
In fact, feeling ashamed for theseinterests is so common that there's almost
a formula for how the struggle plays out.
The binge purge cycle.
Grey (28:18):
One thing that ABL individuals might experience as they grow
up is the desire to be normal.
Sophie (28:28):
You realize life would just be so much easier if I didn't like
this, if I didn't have an, if I didn'thave an urge, an internal thing that
I couldn't control, if I could justcontrol it and make it go away, then
my life would be so much better.
Grey (28:43):
They might not realize that perhaps normal is only pretending
to be what people define as normaland try to quit cold turkey.
Sophie (28:53):
The amount of times I've thrown away everything I own because
I'm like, I'm not doing this.
I'm done with this.
Yeah.
Grey (29:01):
They get rid of all their ABDL paraphernalia and
try to oppose their practices.
This comes with a lot of negativefeelings because while they're
trying to not be themselves.
This puts them in a really badplace to change any practice.
Chloe (29:16):
And then you build impulses and desires because you're oppressing
yourself and then you binge again.
Grey (29:22):
Those desires slowly build like water behind a dam
until something finally breaks.
Now this break wouldn't be justan engagement in practices.
It would be an extreme engagement ofpractices, complete in moderation.
Something that, you know, They engagein sharply, and then suddenly regret.
(29:43):
This starts a cycle over again.
They suddenly regret, they tryto quit cold turkey, and the
pressure starts building again.
Chloe (29:52):
That shame, that self hatred, I think it really comes from Societal
expectations, right, of what you shouldbe, who you should be, what's normal, and
a lack of understanding of why you feelthat way, and like, why you have these
urges, and a lack of empathy for yourself.
Grey (30:10):
The best way to break out of the cycle is moderation.
Try to work out a moderatelevel of practice that you
can stably be comfortable at.
Depending on your life situation,you might be able to increase or
decrease that to better complywith your living situations.
your lifestyle, but it's important to gainthat stability through moderation first.
(30:35):
Otherwise, you'll just be going througha cycle of extreme trying to quit and
extreme failing to quit, which givesrise to trying again and failing again.
Ashley (30:51):
A big part of the shame is a lack of understanding
by friends and loved ones.
Trusted confidants who spilled theirdeepest secrets, family members who
teased and laughed at them, Friendswho turned it into a running joke.
Part of the reason for this miniseries is to show that we're all
human and that we all have reasonsfor liking the things we like.
(31:12):
Understanding that is powerful.
Ignorance actively harms people.
If we're all more understanding ofeveryone else, There's a better chance
they'll be understanding of us, too.
Chloe (31:24):
I can say I have not had a binge purge cycle in probably
close to, like, almost a decade.
Not a decade yet, but, like, we'regetting close to there, like, I am at
a point where I love myself, I lovewho I am, I love what I do, I love
the things I'm interested in, and Ithink anyone can get to that point,
(31:45):
and I, I really hope, like, And peoplemaybe hear this and listen to this and
think, Oh, you know, I'm not there.
So maybe I can get there and reachout for, for community, for, for like
companionship and just understanding.
Ashley (32:04):
Thanks for listening.
Thank you so much to Sophie andChloe, Benny, and B Terrance
Grey for talking to me.
Sophie and Chloe'spodcast is The Usual Bet.
And if you want a deeper diveinto what ABDL is all about, I
highly recommend episode 100.
Kimmy is my favorite part.
There is a link to their show in the shownotes, or you can just search the usual
(32:25):
bet wherever you found this podcast.
B.
Terrance Grey runs the websiteunderstandinginfantilism.
org, where you can find both his researchand the research of the late, great
Brian Zamboni, who is responsible forthe most significant research of the
ABDL community in medical literature.
Taboo Science is on YouTube!
If you like consuming podcasts thatway, click the link in the show
(32:48):
notes and subscribe to the channel.
At the moment I record this, Iam 70 subscribers away from being
monetized, which is a big deal!
Your follow would be a big help.
We have two episodesleft in this miniseries.
Next up is a kind of kink sampler platterbefore we hit the final boss kink.
What's vor?
(33:09):
Is financial domination a thing?
What's up with wet and messy fetishes?
I hope you'll tune in.
I won't tell anyone.
When an adult wears diapers in a TV show or movie, it's meant
to signal one of three things.
One is that they've lost theirdignity, either because their health
is deteriorating, or because someone'sforced them to play the part of a baby.
In the 2005 comedy thriller Bad Girlsfrom Valley High, A curse makes three
(00:22):
hot teen girls start to rapidly age,forcing them to wear diapers to cope.
And in one episode of The Simpsons,the alcoholic putz Barney is seen
handing out flyers for a baby furniturestore in a diaper and baby bonnet.
A passerby actually tellshim, you sicken me, before his
diaper falls off and blows away.
(00:44):
He chases it and then turns thecorner to see his own mother.
Pop culture teaches us thatwearing a diaper as an adult
is the ultimate humiliation.
Another reason characters mightwear a diaper is for deception.
There are countless cartoons wherethe villain dresses up as a baby
in order to get pity from the hero,usually resulting in their own loss
(01:08):
of dignity when they're pampered andcoddled like a baby against their will.
In the Jetsons, it's a jewel thief.
In Looney Tunes, it's a tiny bank robber.
In the 2008 Batman animatedseries, it's crime boss Babyface
trying to bust out of jail.
According to pop culture, dressingas a baby is a great way to fool
(01:28):
people into being nice to you.
The final major reason a grown adultmight wear diapers in TV and film is
that their mental health is suffering.
In Spongebob Squarepants, theornery Squidward gets hit in
the head and regresses to ababy like state as a result.
In Rugrats, Tommy's dad Stu falls offthe roof and Does the exact same thing!
(01:53):
Again, pop culture is there to letus know that adults who want to be
babies have mental health issues.
But there's a large, diverse groupof adults who like to dress up in
diapers, who are mentally sound,aren't trying to deceive anybody, and
don't consider diapers humiliation.
(02:13):
Or do, and like it that way.
And today, we're going to find outwhy diapers are appealing to them,
the many different desires andexpressions within this community,
and how a diaper is sometimes just aleather collar in a different form.
I'm Ashley Hamer and this is TabooScience, the podcast that answers the
(02:34):
questions you're not allowed to ask.
(02:57):
So to get some basics out of the way,the name of this community of people who
like wearing diapers is an acronym, ABDL.
Adult Babies and Diaper Lovers.
Sometimes written as AdultBabies slash Diaper Lovers.
Grey (03:11):
ABDL is a diverse community of adults.
who enjoy wearing diapers andor role playing as babies.
On the DL end of things,it is often sexual.
Ashley (03:22):
That is, for people who are more in it for the diapers themselves,
it's usually because they get sexualgratification from some aspect or
aspects of wearing, feeling, seeing, andeven hearing the crinkle of a diaper.
Grey (03:35):
On the AB end of things, there it becomes a little less
like what you Your listeners mightimagine they enjoy dressing as
babies and role playing as babies.
This may involve pacifiers,stuffed animals, etc.
Now, interestingly, they may separateconventional sexuality from baby play.
(03:55):
They also might embrace the role or enjoythe humiliation and loss of control.
Ashley (04:00):
That is B.
Terrance Grey, an amateur researcherand the creator of the incredible ABDL
resource UnderstandingInfantilism.
org, which has been goingstrong for nearly 30 years.
Grey performed some of the firstdemographic studies of the ABDL community
through his own web surveys, and haspublished in several academic journals.
(04:21):
And as Grey said, thiscommunity is diverse.
It's not like there are adult babiesand diaper lovers and that's it.
Grey (04:29):
They're often discussed as two ends to a spectrum, but it is a continuum.
The mode for the communityis actually to be mostly DL.
Ashley (04:39):
Interesting.
So like, what you mean by that islike, on that continuum, everyone's
pretty much into diapers but not asmany are into like the ageplay part?
Grey (04:48):
Most are into diapers.
Some aren't into the ageplay.
Yeah.
Sophie (04:51):
ABDL is that term that you search.
It's the term you see.
And it's interesting because a lot ofpeople don't identify that way anymore.
I remember when I first got intothe ABDL community, it was a
thing that you had to identify.
Either you were an adult babyor you were a diaper lover and
there really wasn't other options.
Nowadays we haverelationships, um, like DDLG.
(05:14):
which is Daddy Dom Little Girl, um,or CGL, which is Caregiver Little, and
you see a lot more people identify aslittles or bigs or caregivers these days.
Yep.
Oh, for the reference,I identify as a little.
Me too.
Ashley (05:28):
That is Sophie and Chloe, cohosts of the podcast The Usual
Bet, an 18 and up age play podcastthat focuses on ABDL topics.
The name refers to the bet the cohosts make during every episode.
Whoever loses has to wear adiaper on the next episode.
One reason that many people inthe ABDL community don't use the
(05:48):
term adult baby is because not allidentify with a baby type character.
Some roleplay is slightly older.
Toddlers, or even primary school kids.
Rather than littles, people withthat older identity sometimes
call themselves middles.
Which brings me to the firstquestion you might be asking.
Is this a pedophile thing?
(06:11):
As you might imagine, that is aquestion people in the ABDL community
are used to, and very ready to answer.
Sophie (06:20):
This is like, Ageplay 101, first thing you gotta talk about, first thing
you deal with, Ageplay, kink, ABDL stuffis 18 Yeah, adults only, no minors.
We are adults.
We consent to the thingsthat we are doing.
We are playing with this concept ofbeing younger and fitting in this space,
and we have to follow specific rules.
(06:40):
Rules with consent that go alongwith that is with any kink.
You need to set boundaries.
You need to set your limits.
You have to be responsible foryour own actions, and that's not
something you can unilaterallydepend on with a minor because
they can't consent to these things.
We have zero interaction with minors and Ithink like it's, it's one of those things
(07:04):
that the ABDL community is extremelyvigilant about because of associations.
Realistically hypervigilant.
Yeah, and the way that the publicperception has always associated
these two things together.
Mm hmm.
We do so much to do our best to drawthese lines very, very firmly that
this is not an acceptable side of this.
Chloe (07:26):
Absolutely.
Um, I also think it's important tonote, like, the attraction stuff.
It is not too Childish things.
It's about being put in the positionof, like, a childish situation of, like,
having limits put on you, or constraints,or things that take away your autonomy.
It's BDSM.
It's, it's like a power play.
Give and take.
It is not, oh, I find childishthings attractive or something.
(07:49):
It's, oh, I am embarrassed tohave been put in this situation.
I, I have lost power.
by being put in a situation andI think that's where you go back
into that traditional like dom subpower play stuff and that's where
a lot of the sexual aspects are.
Sophie (08:05):
A majority of age play in ABDL is just kink with a
really cutesy filter over it.
That's, that's reallywhat you're playing with.
Ashley (08:16):
This isn't true for everyone in the ABDL community.
Not everyone gets off on humiliationor anything you'd find in BDSM.
There are as many ways to be in theABDL community as there are people,
and how it looks in one person'slife or bedroom may be completely
different from someone else's.
ABDL also lends itself toa lot of different kinks.
(08:38):
Looking at you, furries.
So the limit is truly your imagination.
But for some people, the humiliationand shame of being an adult
wearing a diaper is a real turn on.
Benny (08:51):
One aspect for a lot of people, and myself included, can be that this
is relatively embarrassing, right?
Anything having to do with, like,bodily needs, and especially bathroom
related needs, is something most adults,and I'm certainly one of them, find
embarrassing to interact with otherpeople about, or even just with ourselves.
Ashley (09:10):
That is Benny, who's a member of the board of directors
for an event called Twisted Trist,which is a sort of summer camp for
kinksters, and a former manager at theChicago BDSM club Galleria Domain 2.
He also identifies as a little.
Benny (09:25):
But then when we kind of push past that humiliation aspect, it can be
like deeply connecting between people.
So when I get a chance to playwith this with other people, the
experience of changing someone else'sdiaper, somebody changing mine.
Sort of being interacting with thaton an ongoing basis feels really
intimate in a way that can be likea little bit invasive, a little bit
caretaking, or a lot caretaking.
(09:47):
Um, all of those different emotionalaspects are important to me.
Chloe (09:51):
It's comforting, um, it's cute.
I like being cute.
It is a great coping mechanism for, like,stress or, or anxiety or all those things.
It's a way to take a step back from thetoils and stress of daily life and, like,
enter into a safe, comfortable space.
I think all of kink offers thatin its own way, um, and this is
(10:15):
a very straightforward way and my
Sophie (10:19):
I think like, ageplay and ABDL is a very cutesy way of stepping
into that space where a lot of otherkinks, you know, focus on other
elements of submission and stuff.
HBlaze still does thatin a lot of regards.
You still have to be dependent on someoneor, like, fall into the submissive
category, this, this role where youaren't in charge of things, and it's
(10:43):
very freeing to let someone else havecontrol or, you know, be in situations
where even you can kind of baby yourselfa little bit sometimes, too, where you
set up a situation where you don't havecontrol over that or you, you can get
through difficult things a lot easier.
Ashley (11:19):
What about diapers themselves?
They're big, they're awkward,they get heavy when they're wet,
they make a sound when they move,they make people walk funny.
What of that could possibly be appealing?
Well, for a certainperson, all of the above.
Benny (11:36):
I like the A lot of the physical sensations associated.
So, I really like plastic backeddisposable diapers as my preference.
The smooth plastic undermy fingers is really good.
The sensation of, like, thickness andwarmness and, um, If you're wearing
a really good quality diaper, youkind of can't forget that it's there.
(11:58):
Uh, right, like it's a little bitof like a constant reminder of
something going on with your body.
And then the, the joke I often make, butI, I, it's true, is that I think most
people like the idea of something warm,wet, and squishy around their genitals.
Right, like that, you know, just froma purely sort of physical perspective
that can do it for some people, andI guess I'm one of those people.
Sophie (12:20):
Diapers are really core to this kink, foundational for
this kink, and both Chloe and Iare into this aspect of this kink.
Chloe (12:29):
I think I'd equate it, uh, if I can like equate it to a different kink.
It's kind of like a collar, right?
Like, Like, Functionally in terms oflike what it does in like terms of
the like power dynamic and all that.
Sophie (12:40):
Yes, you're wearing this because this shows your status.
This puts you into this position,this lower submissive position.
Yeah.
On top of that for some peopleor even just some of the time,
Diapers are just comfortable.
They're nice, they're comforting, theybring a sense of, of just peace to it.
(13:05):
Childishness.
Yeah, it's kind of like going to bedin your favorite pajamas, you know?
Um, there's just thisserenity to them sometimes.
that for whatever reason reallyvibes with, with me and with
other people in the community.
Ashley (13:22):
But diapers were meant for babies who can't control
their own bodily functions.
Like, when you change a diaper, it'sbecause it's full of pee or poop.
Do adults in this communityuse them that way too?
Not all, but most do.
Benny (13:38):
Most people pee and most people don't.
We use the mass.
instead of poop.
Uh, not everybody does,but that's the most common.
People will say like peeing and messing.
Messing is less common,but certainly not uncommon.
And it is less common, but notuncommon to wear, but not use.
So the, the overlap between watersports, playing with urine and
(14:01):
playing with diapers is pretty high.
Ashley (14:03):
Next question.
Do people have sex in the diapers?
Benny (14:06):
Yes, people definitely have sex in the diapers.
It's, um, can be a little bit complicated.
So, if you put a hole in adisposable diaper, you are wrecking
the integrity of what is holdingeverything together, right?
So, people have done some very creativethings to try to make that less of a
disaster, or you just lean into the messand be like, this is gonna make a mess.
(14:28):
That's also fine, too.
Uh, there's lots of hand stuff for alot of people, cause getting hands.
Hands are toys or vibratorsor whatever inside of diapers.
Strap ons go outside them really nice.
There's a huge variety of ways to do it.
If you can think of a way to makeit work, someone has done that.
But yeah, people definitelyhave sex in diapers.
There's also, I think slightlymore common, is sex or sexual
(14:50):
play as a part of a diaper change.
So the diaper's coming off for a reason.
that make sense in context.
And then we're gonna like do some kind ofsexual play as a part of that process and
then often then put another diaper on.
That's a pretty common one becauseof the the context just sort of
makes sense there for people.
Ashley (15:10):
When we come back, we'll explore the other supplies a well
stocked age player might have,we'll uncover how people get into
this kink in the first place, andwe'll see the darker side of shame.
Stay tuned.
(15:30):
Diapers aren't the only piece of gearmany people in this community wear
to get into that baby-ish headspace.
In fact, to this outsider, A BDLmay be the kink with the most
and most ornate supplies andgear that I've ever come across.
You don't have to have all, or even anyof this stuff to participate in ABDL,
but for someone who has the budget, thesky is the limit for what you could buy.
Benny (15:55):
Yeah, I would say pacifiers are probably the second thing people buy.
People go for diapers first andpacifiers second, generally.
I mean, lots of variation.
But, there are a huge number ofpacifiers available out there now too.
They, they got inexpensive to produce.
And so, there's a wide variety, lots ofdifferent designs, lots of solid colors.
Grey (16:13):
More common items include pacifiers, bottles, nursing
bottles, and stuffed animals.
Benny (16:20):
And sippy cups and bottles and all of those kinds of things as well
are available and being sold and peoplewill make and sell like cute rattles
and, you know, baby blankets styledlike baby ones but that are bigger.
Just kind of everything you can think of.
Grey (16:37):
Clothing is also commonly present.
It would be affected byindividual tastes of course.
Benny (16:43):
Some people just want the diapers and they wear their adult clothing
and they're just the the diaper loverside of it or kind of minimalist.
Others want a whole wardrobe of cutepajamas and onesies and rompers and
dresses and all of that kind of stuff.
Onesies in particular, and by onesiesI specifically mean like a shirt
that snaps at the crotch, and thatpeople use that word to mean lots
(17:04):
of different kinds of products.
Sleepers with feet and whatever,but like, specifically I mean
the ones that snap at the crotch.
Those tend to be particularly popularbecause they help hold diapers in place.
Um, so they're like a functionalthing as well as being, uh, adorable.
Grey (17:18):
Now, one notable item is sissy clothing, and that's
something we should be aware of.
Because depending on the individual,they may dress as a very girlish baby,
as a way to express their identificationas a girlish baby, and others on the
other end of the AB subspectrum mightenjoy being dressed as a very girlish
(17:42):
baby to amplify the humiliation ofbeing not only a baby but a girl.
Ashley (17:48):
There are boy babies too, of course.
Benny (17:50):
For my little self, he can really lean into boycotted colors
and boycotted, you know, stuff.
And so for me, that means leaning intohaving a lot of, like a lot of blue
in his wardrobe, things like that.
And then a really strong attractionto boy characters in media.
So I like Sesame Street a lot.
Uh, Bert's my favorite character,that sort of thing, right?
(18:13):
And, and when I see other peopleplaying in a more masculine space
in the ABDL sense, and there aremany, it's not unusual, it does
tend to be those sorts of things.
It tends to be leaning into, you know,bright colors that focus a little bit
more on blue, characters that theyidentify as being more male coded, and
there are luckily lots of products.
(18:34):
You know, there are some companies thatare doing a really good job of making
sure that they've got Gender diversekinds of products available, uh, diapers
and clothing and stuff like that.
And then, if you've got a sky high budget
Grey (18:45):
They may even have custom furniture.
Custom furniture is quiteexpensive and difficult to source.
It also requires sufficient space tohave a room with the custom furniture.
So it's quite rare, but many ABDLindividuals would like to have a
custom nursery with their customfurniture and a layout that might
(19:07):
extend to quite a large range of items.
Ashley (19:14):
So how does a person start doing this kind of thing?
Is it from childhood?
Is it something you get into whena partner introduces it to you?
As with most things ABDL, the desirecan be planted in all sorts of ways.
Grey (19:28):
Some may have a lifelong desire, they can't tell you when it started,
but they would have either realizedit at some point or just accepted
that it was always there, seemingly.
Others may have been, as adults,introduced to a practice and
found that they enjoyed it.
(19:49):
Two groups would initiallyhave separate demographics.
The first group, which has a paraphiliaor a predisposition if it's not sexual.
They do tend to be male.
They do tend to have early ages of onset.
They also tend to be whiteand in the western culture.
However, that might bestrictly a cultural thing.
The second group that may have simplyexperimented and found that they enjoyed.
(20:14):
Those in contrast tend to be more women.
This too might be a strictlycultural thing at Department stores,
back when there were departmentstores, you would be able to get
footed sleepers in infant sizes andwomen's sizes, but not men's sizes.
In so many other ways, society tells womenthat it might be okay to be a princess
(20:37):
as an adult, then they would a male.
Ashley (20:41):
In fact, a common belief about the ABDL community
is that it's nearly all men.
That's something thatseems to be changing.
More women, both cis and trans,are joining the community.
That doesn't mean that womenweren't into this historically.
Instead, it could be a signof changing social dynamics.
As Benny told me, ABDL internetforums used to be toxic places for
(21:04):
women, and the community is graduallylearning to treat them better.
It's the story of a lot ofonline spaces for women.
It just seems like ABDL gotthe memo a little later.
But either way, according to research,men are more likely to get into
diapers and other ABDL proclivitiesearly in life, while women are
more likely to discover it later.
(21:24):
But even for those who get into it early,results from Grey's original survey
suggest it's probably not from birth.
Grey (21:31):
The particular type of diaper that an ABDL individual fantasizes
about will lag by about five yearsrelative to the type of diaper
that they may have been raised in.
Ashley (21:44):
Lag?
What do you mean?
Grey (21:46):
The type of diaper that And ABDL might fantasize about would be
the type of diaper that a youngerperson, five years younger on
average, would have been raised in.
This suggests a postnatalformative component.
This doesn't mean that, uh, the desireswere necessarily caused at an average
(22:07):
of five years of age, but that there ismaybe some later stage that occurs there.
Ashley (22:13):
Got it.
So, say, that possibly If they were fiveand saw babies wearing those diapers,
that's the diaper they thought about.
They didn't think about the diaperthat they themselves had on.
Grey (22:26):
It is rare for adults to be able to remember their own infancy, so they
may be reconstructing their own childhoodfrom what they observe in the community.
Now this is one aspect that makesthe ABDL community interesting
scientifically, because they dohave that clear postnatal component.
(22:47):
With other orientations andparaphilias, they could arguably
mainly genetic or prenatal.
Ashley (22:53):
This is super cool!
I mean, most kinks don't involve anyspecific objects from that far back in
a person's life, so ABDL is unique inthat scientists can potentially point
to something, in this case a specifictype of diaper, that gives some hint
as to when the interest started.
For Sophie and Chloe, theyboth felt like a desire to be a
(23:14):
little had always been with them.
Here's Sophie.
Sophie (23:18):
Even before I was 10 years old, I remember wanting to always
be the baby when we play house.
Um, I remember having a littlebrother who is significantly younger
than me and was in diapers and Iwould, like, Be jealous of that.
I remember being jealous.
I remember having my youngersister's toys and like wanting
(23:41):
to play with them and stuff.
So I think I've always been into this.
It didn't really come about tobeing like, Oh, this is a thing.
Like this is a thingother people are into.
Um, until I was maybe 13 or 14 andI was just talking to friends my
age on the internet, because that'sThat's how the internet was back then.
(24:03):
And it kind of grew into Like, Iwant to role play online as kind
of being younger or like beingtreated like a five year old.
And it just kind of developed from there.
And I didn't really learn about theABDL community or this kind of bigger
picture until maybe my mid teens.
And then I did my, you know,Best not to engage with it,
(24:26):
because no minors can kink.
Um, we always make jokes of like, ohyeah, we were into baby stuff, but
like, when we were 18 and no younger.
Um, but that's not inherently true.
It's just us trying todraw that, that fine line.
Uh, I do think this is something of,you know, It's always been a part of me.
It took a long time to acceptthat and it took me even longer to
(24:46):
appreciate and love that part of me.
Mm-Hmm.
. Chloe: Um, honestly, I have pretty much the same story, like impulses at an
early age, like wanting to be this way.
Not understanding, notunderstanding myself.
A lot of self hatred and likeshame that went along with that and
taking the greater part of my likeadolescence to understand this and
(25:08):
start to accept it before reaching.
18 and no younger, and, uh,like, joining the community.
Ashley (25:15):
For Benny, the discovery came later, but it fit like a puzzle piece
into things he was already doing.
Benny (25:22):
Playing with age aspect of it goes back to sort of my earliest understandings
of relationships and sexuality.
Uh, so even as an adolescent, I wassort of experimenting with those ideas.
Um, but in my early adulthood, as I cameinto the kink community, I discovered,
uh, that diaper fetishes were a thing.
Uh, and something about thatreally jumped out for me.
So, some people find this out aboutthemselves quite a bit younger.
(25:45):
Uh, but for me, it was inmy very early adulthood.
So, I sort of got exposed to that ideaand was just immediately fascinated,
um, and felt like it connected quitestrongly with the, um, the play that I
was already doing that had to do withvulnerability and youth and intimacy
in, uh, in slightly humiliating ways.
Aspects of that really kind of allresonated, uh, and so I started
(26:08):
giving diapering a try, uh, when Iwas in my very early 20s and, uh,
I have never walked away since.
Ashley (26:14):
Chloe and Benny are also representative of a pretty sizable
demographic in the ABDL space.
Trans folks.
For that community, there'sa lot to like about age play.
For one thing, diapers can be reallyfreeing for people with gender dysphoria.
Chloe (26:30):
It removes, like, the genital region, like, uh, that stuff, all
the dysphoria tied up in that, andjust totally removes it from play.
Sophie (26:37):
It's a gender unifying garment.
And, um, that can be really, uh, a boon.
Depending on how comfortable youare with your body and stuff.
Ashley (26:47):
But even more significantly, most trans folks didn't get a chance
to have a childhood as their gender.
And being able to relive that era, evena little bit, can be really therapeutic.
Benny (26:58):
One is that I'm a transmasculine person and I didn't get to have a boyhood.
So getting to experience myself as alittle, as an adult, allows me to have
a boyhood that I otherwise didn't have.
And so my little self tends tolean in really hard on like very
masculine childhood things in avery stereotypical way that isn't
(27:20):
necessarily how I actually view theworld as an adult, um, but is sort of
the way a toddler might view gender.
And it allows me to Access.
sort of emotional intimacy andcaregiving in a way that I think
I did have as a kid but manypeople just don't remember, right?
So we get to bring that feeling ofwhat we like want that experience of
(27:40):
feeling nurtured in that kind of wayand bring that into adulthood in a
way that we that many people don'tget and well you know once we're
older than pretty small children.
Ashley (27:56):
However, it's not all smiles and sippy cups.
Where there's shame for fun,there's often shame for real.
And ABDL is no different.
In fact, feeling ashamed for theseinterests is so common that there's almost
a formula for how the struggle plays out.
The binge purge cycle.
Grey (28:18):
One thing that ABL individuals might experience as they grow
up is the desire to be normal.
Sophie (28:28):
You realize life would just be so much easier if I didn't like
this, if I didn't have an, if I didn'thave an urge, an internal thing that
I couldn't control, if I could justcontrol it and make it go away, then
my life would be so much better.
Grey (28:43):
They might not realize that perhaps normal is only pretending
to be what people define as normaland try to quit cold turkey.
Sophie (28:53):
The amount of times I've thrown away everything I own because
I'm like, I'm not doing this.
I'm done with this.
Yeah.
Grey (29:01):
They get rid of all their ABDL paraphernalia and
try to oppose their practices.
This comes with a lot of negativefeelings because while they're
trying to not be themselves.
This puts them in a really badplace to change any practice.
Chloe (29:16):
And then you build impulses and desires because you're oppressing
yourself and then you binge again.
Grey (29:22):
Those desires slowly build like water behind a dam
until something finally breaks.
Now this break wouldn't be justan engagement in practices.
It would be an extreme engagement ofpractices, complete in moderation.
Something that, you know, They engagein sharply, and then suddenly regret.
(29:43):
This starts a cycle over again.
They suddenly regret, they tryto quit cold turkey, and the
pressure starts building again.
Chloe (29:52):
That shame, that self hatred, I think it really comes from Societal
expectations, right, of what you shouldbe, who you should be, what's normal, and
a lack of understanding of why you feelthat way, and like, why you have these
urges, and a lack of empathy for yourself.
Grey (30:10):
The best way to break out of the cycle is moderation.
Try to work out a moderatelevel of practice that you
can stably be comfortable at.
Depending on your life situation,you might be able to increase or
decrease that to better complywith your living situations.
your lifestyle, but it's important to gainthat stability through moderation first.
(30:35):
Otherwise, you'll just be going througha cycle of extreme trying to quit and
extreme failing to quit, which givesrise to trying again and failing again.
Ashley (30:51):
A big part of the shame is a lack of understanding
by friends and loved ones.
Trusted confidants who spilled theirdeepest secrets, family members who
teased and laughed at them, Friendswho turned it into a running joke.
Part of the reason for this miniseries is to show that we're all
human and that we all have reasonsfor liking the things we like.
(31:12):
Understanding that is powerful.
Ignorance actively harms people.
If we're all more understanding ofeveryone else, There's a better chance
they'll be understanding of us, too.
Chloe (31:24):
I can say I have not had a binge purge cycle in probably
close to, like, almost a decade.
Not a decade yet, but, like, we'regetting close to there, like, I am at
a point where I love myself, I lovewho I am, I love what I do, I love
the things I'm interested in, and Ithink anyone can get to that point,
(31:45):
and I, I really hope, like, And peoplemaybe hear this and listen to this and
think, Oh, you know, I'm not there.
So maybe I can get there and reachout for, for community, for, for like
companionship and just understanding.
Ashley (32:04):
Thanks for listening.
Thank you so much to Sophie andChloe, Benny, and B Terrance
Grey for talking to me.
Sophie and Chloe'spodcast is The Usual Bet.
And if you want a deeper diveinto what ABDL is all about, I
highly recommend episode 100.
Kimmy is my favorite part.
There is a link to their show in the shownotes, or you can just search the usual
(32:25):
bet wherever you found this podcast.
B.
Terrance Grey runs the websiteunderstandinginfantilism.
org, where you can find both his researchand the research of the late, great
Brian Zamboni, who is responsible forthe most significant research of the
ABDL community in medical literature.
Taboo Science is on YouTube!
If you like consuming podcasts thatway, click the link in the show
(32:48):
notes and subscribe to the channel.
At the moment I record this, Iam 70 subscribers away from being
monetized, which is a big deal!
Your follow would be a big help.
We have two episodesleft in this miniseries.
Next up is a kind of kink sampler platterbefore we hit the final boss kink.
What's vor?
(33:09):
Is financial domination a thing?
What's up with wet and messy fetishes?
I hope you'll tune in.
I won't tell anyone.
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