July 11, 2024 • 36 mins
Ever wondered why some people have a thing for feet? In this final Philias episode, we're flying feet first into foot fetishes. Social psychologist Dr. Justin Lehmiller breaks down the origins of fetishes (and the truth to that "crossed wires in the brain" factoid), while writer and "Educatrix" Tina Horn gives us the lowdown on why feet can be such a turn-on. We also step into the cultural aspects of foot fascination and debunk some common misconceptions. Whether you're a foot fanatic yourself or just interested in what makes people tick, this episode will shed light on a often misunderstood aspect of human sexuality. So go ahead, press play and put your feet up—and maybe snap a pic or two while you're at it.
Resources from Dr. Justin Lehmiller:
- Website: https://www.sexandpsychology.com/
- Book: https://amzn.to/4cCcyqm
- Podcast: https://www.sexandpsychology.com/podcasts/
- Twitter/X: https://x.com/JustinLehmiller
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/justinjlehmiller/
Resources from Tina Horn:
- Website: https://tinahorn.net/
- Book: https://amzn.to/45YPJuw
- Podcast: https://tinahorn.net/yapit
- Twitter/X: https://x.com/tinahornsass
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tinahornsass
See citations and a transcript here: https://www.tabooscience.show/047-foot-fetishes/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ashley (00:00):
A while back, I came across this TikTok from a woman named Elisa.
Her username is @msheavenonearthh.
She's on the beach, and it starts outwith a selfie view as she gets up from
a beach towel and some unseen strangerstell her that a man had been taking
pictures of her while she was sleeping.
They pointed him out, and she did whatI could never do in a million years.
(00:24):
She walks over and confronts him.
Elisa (00:27):
Yo, why are you recording me while I was sleeping?
Foot creep (00:30):
I didn't record you sleeping.
Elisa (00:31):
Yeah, I had like three people just told me that you were taking
pictures of me while I was sleeping.
Foot creep (00:35):
Just your feet.
Elisa (00:36):
No.
Ashley (00:37):
She makes him delete the pictures off his phone, along with some pictures
of high school girls who were sittingnear her, then takes his phone and deletes
the deleted pictures from the trash.
Her bravery is incredible, and I thinkit might be a product of the area.
The beach is right next to ConeyIsland, and this is clearly a take
no shit NYC girl through and through.
(00:59):
But what stuck out to me was his excuse.
He wasn't taking pictures of her butt.
He says he was takingpictures of her feet.
He says it again later.
Foot creep (01:09):
I didn't mean no harm or disrespect.
Elisa (01:11):
No, it's disrespectful.
'cause what if I did that while you weresleeping and took pictures of your butt?
Are you serious?
Foot creep (01:16):
I took pictures of your feet.
So.
Elisa (01:18):
My, and you got my back end.
That's crazy.
That's so crazy.
Ashley (01:21):
The idea that it's more okay to take creep shots of a person's feet than
some more traditionally sexualized bodypart is one of the things that makes foot
fetishes complicated, at least to me.
There's an aspect of manipulation there.
You don't know if the person hasa foot fetish, and they're taking
advantage of that fact to take thekinds of pictures that would be a
(01:43):
clear ethical violation if the personhad more garden variety interests.
The same goes for sites like WikiFeet,where people post pictures of feet
belonging to famous and semi famous women.
If a site were devoted to the boobsor butts of famous women, there might
be more of an outcry, but because it'sfeet, it's just something strange.
Of course, not everyone with foot fetishesacts the way this guy on the beach did.
(02:10):
And considering that it's one of theworld's most popular fetishes, the
creeps are likely a very small minority.
But here's my argument.
Some people with foot fetishesact creepy because society
sees foot fetishes as creepy.
Someone who feels shunned by society willdo things that get them shunned by society
(02:33):
because they've got nothing to lose.
The more we understand and welcomefoot fetishes as just one more
colorful form of human sexuality,the better off everyone will be.
And today, we're learning all about them.
I'm Ashley Hamer, and this is TabooScience, the podcast that answers the
questions you're not allowed to ask.
So, to start with the absolute basics: What is a fetish in the first place? (03:16):
undefined
Justin Lehmiller (03:21):
A fetish is a type of kink, right?
So if we use the term kink as kindof the umbrella term, that refers
to any sexual interest that kindof falls outside of the mainstream.
And a fetish would be aspecific type of kink.
Ashley (03:38):
That is Dr.
Justin Lehmiller.
Justin Lehmiller (03:40):
I'm a social psychologist and research
fellow at the Kinsey Institute.
I run the Sex and Psychology blogand podcast, and I'm author of the
book Tell Me What You Want, TheScience of Sexual Desire and How It
Can Help You Improve Your Sex Life.
Ashley (03:54):
I mentioned that book on the last episode.
It's the result of surveying morethan 4, 000 Americans about their
favorite sexual fantasy of all time.
It uncovered a lot of useful information,not only about less researched
interests like foot fetishes, butalso about how a person's fantasies
are connected to their personalitytraits, where they live, or other
(04:14):
elements of their personal background.
We'll talk more about that later.
Justin Lehmiller (04:19):
And so, with fetishes, what we're talking about are having a
fascination with a particular sensation,or object, or non genital body part.
And so, it's really just thisenduring fascination with something
that's, you know, isn't typicallya part of common sexual practices.
(04:42):
So that could be somethinglike feet or shoes.
It could basically be anythingthat you can think of, right?
People can have fetishesfor virtually anything.
And I think it's important to notethat fetishes are multi sensory.
So what it is that turns somebodyon who has a fetish might be the
look or appearance of something.
It could be the taste or smell of it.
(05:04):
It could be the sound of it.
It could be multiple sensesall combined at once.
So fetishes are kind of diverse in termsof their meaning to the individual.
Ashley (05:13):
Something you may have heard about fetishes is that they're exclusive.
If someone is into feet, feet are theonly thing that can turn them on sexually.
They get nothing fromquote unquote normal sex.
Like most things in human sexuality,this is only true of some people.
Justin Lehmiller (05:31):
Fetishes vary across persons in terms of
their strength and intensity.
And for a subset of people, fetishes arethese requirements for arousal and orgasm.
Like, they have to have thatfetish object in order to obtain
sexual pleasure or gratification.
However, for many people with fetishesthat are on kind of the more mild end
(05:51):
of the spectrum, um, the fetish isreally just an enhancer to sex and so
they can still enjoy non fetish sexto a very great degree or level and
if the fetish is added to it that'sjust like an extra bonus, right?
So you know that's one of the things worthrecognizing is that there's a little bit
more nuance to fetishes, you know, they'renot always these exclusive requirements.
(06:13):
And sometimes, and actually I thinkmore commonly, they just tend to be
these enhancers to sex that people mightjust pursue on occasion or only with
partners who might be interested in that.
Ashley (06:30):
So here's the eternal unanswerable question.
Where do fetishes come from?
Justin Lehmiller (06:36):
There's not a simple answer because I think two
people could develop a fetish forthe same thing, but they might
develop it for different reasons.
So I like to think of all sexualinterests, whether they're
fetishes or something else, oranother type of kink, let's say.
They are biopsychosocial in nature, sothere can be biological factors, for
(06:59):
example, your hormone levels that mightplay a role in terms of our general
level of sexual interest and desire,and that can sort of shape what we do
and how we behave sexually, and thatcan open the door to learning and
developing different sexual interestsif you're just more sexually active.
Also, you know, it depends onpsychological factors, so your
(07:19):
own unique personality traits.
For example, I find that peoplewho are very extroverted versus
very introverted tend to developpretty different sexual interests.
Ashley (07:29):
Yeah!
According to Dr.
Lehmiller's research, introvertstend to develop kinkier sexual
interests than extroverts.
The stereotype of the freakyband geek or the sexy librarian?
It's not too far from the truth.
Justin Lehmiller (07:44):
And then it also depends on our environment, you know,
the culture in which we're embedded andour relationship circumstances, you know,
the things that we're exposed to or thethings that are considered to be taboo
or deviant within our culture or society,you know, so all of these factors can
play a role in different ways in termsof developing something like a fetish.
(08:04):
But I would say probably the singlemost common way that fetishes develop is
that they're learned through experience.
And they're things that wecome to associate with sex
and with sexual pleasure.
So for example, if you had a sexualexperience, particularly if it was early
on, and let's say there was somethinglike shoes or stockings involved in
(08:27):
that, and this experience involved a verypowerful, very intense orgasm, that can
become a reinforcing variable, right?
And so it can make us want to pursuethat more in the future because we want
to repeat or replicate that intenseexperience of pleasure that we had.
So fetishes, I would say, are moreoften than not learned behaviors.
Ashley (08:48):
In fact, scientists have given people fetishes in the lab multiple times.
The most famous experiment on this waspublished in 1966 by a researcher named S.
Rachmann.
He invited three straight malepsychologist buddies into the
lab, had them put on a device thatmeasured blood flow to the penis,
and started showing them pictures.
Justin Lehmiller (09:10):
He would show these men images of nude women,
and for most heterosexual men,that's going to be arousing.
And so when they see the images ofthe nude women, they're registering
levels of genital arousal.
And then following the imagesof the nude women, he would show
them images of women's boots.
And for people who don't already havea foot fetish, you know, just seeing
an image of ladies boots probablyisn't going to do a whole lot for them.
(09:33):
So, you know, in the beginning,they would see the images of the
boots and they're not registeringor showing much sexual arousal.
But over time, when you present the imageof the nude woman, followed very closely
by images of women's boots, what yousee is that eventually, the men start
showing arousal to the boots alone, right?
(09:53):
Because the boots are becomingassociated with, they're becoming
a cue for sexual arousal.
Ashley (09:58):
Eventually, other researchers repeated the
experiment with subtle tweaks.
A researcher named M.
McConaghy did it with geometric shapes.
That experiment was with bothstraight and gay men, and it
got basically the same result.
And then in 1999, researchersJoseph Plaud and James Martini
did the experiment again.
Justin Lehmiller (10:19):
And so in that study, they followed the same experimental
design, except instead of showingimages of boots, they showed images
of a jar of pennies, which, youknow, is probably a highly unarousing
stimulus for most people, unlessyou're, like, really into money.
But, you know, they found the samepattern, uh, of associations there was
that over time participants in that studystarted to show arousal to that image of
(10:43):
a jar of pennies because it had becomethis learned cue for sexual arousal.
Ashley (10:49):
I was curious about this and maybe you are too.
Did the men then leave the labwith a lifelong fetish for pennies?
No.
Thankfully, this experiment, andall experiments like it, included an
extinction trial where they showed theconditioned stimulus, in this case,
the jar of pennies, a bunch of timeswithout the sexy images until the
(11:11):
volunteers didn't get aroused anymore.
Close one!
But if there's one thing you'veheard about the scientific reason for
foot fetishes, it's probably this.
Justin Lehmiller (11:30):
One that often gets thrown around is that in the brain, the
areas for sensation, where we registerthat in the brain for the feet, are
actually in very close proximity to theareas where we get genital sensation.
And so the thought is that maybe there'ssome overlap or even cross wiring in
some people that kind of leads to this,you know, sensation or stimulation to be
(11:55):
kind of associated with sexual arousal.
Ashley (12:02):
This idea was first posed by neuroscientist V.
S.
Ramachandran in the 90s.
The part of the brain we're talking abouthere is called the somatosensory cortex.
It's a narrow strip on the outside ofthe brain that contains basically all
of the sensory brain cells that connectwith different parts of your body.
It's almost like a map.
(12:22):
The tongue neurons are next to theteeth neurons, which are next to
the mouth neurons, which are nextto the face neurons, and so on.
Until you get to the hands and feet.
For some reason, the hands aremapped next to the face, and the
feet are mapped next to the genitals.
A psychology researcher named Martha J.
Farah came up with a fascinatingexplanation for this.
(12:45):
See, we're pretty sure the connections inthe somatosensory cortex form in the womb.
When we're all balled up in thefetal position, our hands are
closest to our face and our feetare closest to our genitals.
All that touching we do, with ourhands on our face and our feet on
our genitals, creates a lifelongchange in the brain that associates
those body parts with one another.
(13:07):
Cool, right?
So the idea is that the footneurons being so close to the
genital neurons might cause somecrosstalk, leading to foot fetishes.
But I see one problem with this.
It's about sensation, not attraction.
It might explain why someone getsoff on having their feet touched,
(13:27):
but it doesn't explain why peopleare attracted to someone else's feet.
Dr.
Lehmiller also doesn't totally buy it.
Justin Lehmiller (13:34):
I think it falls in the category of, hey, there could
potentially be something to it, butit feels like it might be too easy
or too simple of an explanation.
And I think when we're trying tounderstand the origins of where sexual
interests come from, people tendto be very easily seduced by simple
explanations, especially if you can throw,like, the brain into it in some way.
Tina Horn (13:57):
Desire is an art, not a science.
I mean, I think it's worthwhileto apply all kinds of science
to sexuality, for sure.
But when it comes to reallyunderstanding why are people into
that, there's never going to be justone answer that applies to everyone
or even applies to just one person.
(14:17):
It can change throughout the day, itcan change throughout a monthly cycle,
it can change throughout your lifetime,it can change in different dynamics.
It can be different in your solo sexlife masturbation fantasies in your head
versus what you like to do with people.
It can surprise you.
So as elusive and sometimes maddeningas that can be, I do think that we
(14:39):
have to accept that sexuality is likeslippery, if you'll forgive the use of
that word, and it's like the sun, youlike shouldn't look at it directly.
Ashley (14:49):
That is Tina Horn.
Tina Horn (14:51):
I'm a writer I identify as an educatrix, combining my background
in professional BDSM with educationof all kinds across many mediums.
I'm also apodcaster.
I have a podcast calledWhy Are People Into That.
The book version of Why Are PeopleInto That is going to be out
from Hachette Press in June 2024.
Ashley (15:14):
Meaning it's out now.
I've read it, and if you're at allinterested in the stuff that I talk about
on this podcast, you are going to love it.
Tina also has certain interests thatare relevant to the topic at hand.
You are into feet, correct?
Tina Horn (15:30):
Do you want to see my feet?
Ashley (15:32):
No, thank you.
I'm sure they're lovely.
Tina Horn (15:35):
Great.
Well, that's good becauseI would have to charge you.
Ashley (15:40):
Okay.
So, um, why, why are you into feet?
Tina's answer, plus a lot more aboutfoot fetishes, when we come back.
So I asked Tina why she's intofeet, and here was her answer.
Tina Horn (16:01):
This, you know, probably like says a lot about the way that I
see the world and that I see sexuality.
Like, I see feet as having like anenormous amount of personality and
as being like little characters.
Sounds creepy, like a creepy puppet,but I see feet as like little microcosms
(16:23):
of the people that they're attached to,and When I am into a person, erotically,
I just become so, like, obsessed withand curious about their body, and I'm
absolutely curious about their butts,and I'm absolutely curious about their
genitals, and I'm absolutely curious abouttheir tits and their nipples, and I'm,
(16:47):
like, absolutely curious about their,their face, you know, their hair, all
the hair, all the places on their body.
And, like, feet.
Just kind of feel like, like a part ofmany people's bodies that just has sort
of so much to say about who they are.
(17:08):
And I just, I like love to worship themboth in a devotional way, but also in
a, um, just like, being a sensory pigand wanting to just like, rub my face
up against, um, the people that I like.
I'm a very like, scent motivated person,so feet tend to have a strong scent
(17:29):
that tells you a lot about a person.
I mean, I personally like thingsthat are stinky, um, but even if
someone's feet aren't particularly,like, sweaty or stinky, like, that
still also says something aboutthem, and that's interesting.
Um, I feel like people neglect theirfeet, so I like to take care of them.
(17:50):
I like to give people pleasure byrubbing them and worshipping them.
I like to see the look on somebody'sface when I just, like, want to
get my face up in their feet.
Ashley (18:02):
There's also an element of submission in foot worship
that appeals to some people.
Tina Horn (18:07):
I'm not an extremely submissive person.
But I have definitely had experiences ofbeing in the bottom position in a kink
scene and having somebody put their feeton me in a way that was sort of like,
I'm not in charge, I'm not in control.
You know, some people love to beobjectified as like a footstool, the
(18:29):
sort of like taking care of somebody'sfeet or pampering their feet is
very much an act of service, right?
So if you want to think aboutthat as a love language.
An act of service, but also serviceis a very big part of a lot of leather
community, BDSM play for a lot of people.
Um, uh, so, you know, being in serviceto someone by taking care of their feet.
(18:53):
Um, yeah, trampling, pressure.
I mean, yeah, I love to, like,I love to walk on people.
Ashley (19:01):
So what's so funny about this, this very detailed explanation of why
you're into it is I feel like it doesn'tline up with a lot of people's conception
of a foot fetish, which is people lookingat foot pics online, paying for foot pics.
There's wiki feet, you know, it's, butit doesn't sound like foot pictures
are at all part of your thing.
(19:21):
It has, they're attached tothe person that you're into.
Tina Horn (19:24):
Oh, that's interesting.
I mean, I, I'm not a super visual person.
But there's no moral valence to that.
Like, I'm much more of a sensory,tactile kind of person, so I do want to
stress that I don't think that there'sanything wrong with enjoying looking at
pictures of feet and being a visuallymotivated person, or even the sort of foot
(19:45):
partialism of fixating on feet and likenot really caring who they're attached to.
Like if there's a certain kind offoot that you enjoy looking at,
enjoy fantasizing about, um, and youdon't really care if it's attached
to like, you know, your mom's friendat the pool or Emma Stone, I don't
(20:05):
know, or, you know, Ryan Gosling,um, whomever, uh, Idris Elba.
I'm sure Idris Elba has amazing feet,actually, now that I think about it.
Ashley (20:13):
Probably, yeah.
Tina Horn (20:14):
But, uh, so I want to stress that my interest in feet
often does have to do with whothey're attached to and, like, having
an experience with that person.
But it's also just becauseI'm more tactilely motivated.
So, um, somebody who is morevisually motivated might enjoy
looking at pictures of feet.
And also, um, sometimes people whoenjoy looking at pictures of feet do
(20:36):
get an erotic charge from the personthat they know that it is connected to.
So sometimes the picturesare not disembodied.
Sometimes it's, you know, the footis in focus in the foreground of the
frame and, you know, the person isattached to it, extending behind it.
And sometimes, you know, being sentfoot pics by someone who you would like
(20:58):
to fuck or you find attractive can bea part of the visual element as well.
Ashley (21:03):
As a woman, Tina is outside the majority for this fetish.
Men are more likely to identify ashaving a foot fetish than women.
And according to Dr.
Lehmiller, there's probablya cultural reason for that.
Justin Lehmiller (21:16):
So if you think, for example, about the way that feet, and
in particular women's feet, are oftendepicted in the media and in advertising
and in popular culture, you know, feet arevery sexualized, you know, in, in a lot of
ads and in a lot of movies and TV shows.
You know, if you think about, forexample, the prominent role that
footwear played in shows like Sex andthe City or in the movie Barbie, and,
(21:40):
you know, the way that women's feetare depicted, I think that that is one
of the things that can start to createthis association between feet and sexual
arousal, and we can kind of learn thatover time through what we're exposed to.
Ashley (21:55):
But men's feet don't get that kind of media treatment.
Justin Lehmiller (21:58):
I mean, just try and think for a moment.
Can you think of any examples of men'sfeet being depicted in very sexy ways?
Like, when men's feet are shownor discussed in the media,
they're often talked about askind of being gross, right?
As opposed to being like a sex symbol.
So, you know, I think that that'spart of the reason for why there's
a big gender difference there.
(22:20):
If I'm remembering my data correctly,I think gay men were actually even
more likely to have foot fetishesthan heterosexual men, which is
interesting in light of, you know,what I just said about sort of the
cultural explanation because men's feetdon't tend to be kind of sexualized,
uh, in the media in the same way.
So there's something interesting goingon with gay and bisexual men where feet
(22:41):
really seem to be a pretty prominentfetish in particular in that community.
And something that's worth mentioning isjust that in general, sexual minorities,
and in particular sexual minority men,tend to have more kinks and fetishes
compared to cisgender heterosexual people.
And I think one possible explanationfor that is when you've already, you
(23:04):
know, sort of broken the norms orviolated one sexual taboo and you know
if you're gay or bisexual you've alreadyviolated the norm of heterosexuality.
I think that kind of opens thedoor to exploring your sexuality
more fully because it becomes lesscostly to violate other taboos once
you've already violated a big onelike the norm of heterosexuality.
(23:29):
So I think that could potentiallybe at play in terms of why gay
and bi men tend to have more footfetishes than heterosexual men.
Ashley (23:37):
In my interviews, the same point has been made about trans people tending
to be kinkier than the general population.
They've already violated a hugegender norm, so why not explore what
other norms are worth violating?
(24:02):
To come full circle, I wanted toask my guests about why people with
foot fetishes have a stereotypeof being creepy, like the guy in
the TikTok at the top of the show.
Why does that stereotype exist?
Tina and Dr.
Lehmiller both said the same thing.
Tina Horn (24:24):
I think that we think that people who Like, feet are creepy because
mental health institutions have beendefining, you know, partialism, like
an interest in a part of the body thatis not a primary or secondary sexual
characteristic that we've decided islike normal to be sexually interested in.
(24:47):
Mental health institutions have definedthat as a sickness for a very long time.
Justin Lehmiller (24:53):
So I don't think there's truth to the idea that people who
have fetishes, whether they're feet orsomething else, are necessarily or more
likely to be sexually interested in sexualdeviants who are going to go out and,
you know, commit sex crimes or engage insexual harassment or things like that.
Like, I'm not aware of any dataor evidence to support that idea.
(25:15):
But I think where this comes fromis that there's long been a stigma,
not just against foot fetishes, butabout all fetishes and all kinks,
you know, especially anything BDSMrelated, because historically in the
DSM, which is the psychiatry bible,fetishes and sadomasochism have been
classified as paraphilias, which refersto an unusual sexual interest, and
(25:40):
they were considered to be disordersthat were in need of treatment.
And it wasn't really until the early2010s when the DSM for the first time
made a distinction between having aparaphilia, so having an unusual sexual
interest, versus having a paraphilicdisorder, which is having an unusual
interest that either causes distressto the individual or is causing harm to
(26:03):
someone else because maybe it's, let'ssay, being engaged in non consensually.
So it's very, very recent as aphenomenon for psychiatry and psychology
to have really tried to kind of destigmatize unusual sexual interests.
And so it's kind of hard to fightthat long standing baggage of
people associating fetish and kinkand S& M with disorder, right?
(26:29):
The field no longer considers thesethings to be disorders today unless, you
know, they're causing distress or harm.
I think that nuance is kindof lost on a lot of folks.
Tina Horn (26:40):
Like, where do our ideas about sexuality come from, I
ask, in Why Are People Into That?
A Cultural Investigation of Kink and, youknow, some of it is the moral imperialism
of powerful churches and religions.
Some of it is certainly the law.
So I think that the result of that, Iknow that the result of that is that
(27:01):
people who In coming into their sexualunderstanding in adolescence and young
adulthood, when they realize that they'returned on by something, that they are
seeing messages makes them creepy, then itbecomes this like self fulfilling prophecy
or this like feedback loop, where thenpeople feel bad, and then that, like,
(27:23):
tamping down of shame can contribute tomaladaptive behavior, like seeking out
images of people's feet on the internetwithout their consent, or staring at
people's feet in sandals without theirconsent because they feel like they can't
say to a partner, I would love to touchyour feet, I would love your feet in my
(27:44):
mouth, whereas I think that people havingtheir first sexual experiences, you
know, don't feel like they need to havea conversation before they put somebody's
tits in their mouth or somebody's genitalsin their mouth, um, or, or kiss their
neck or kiss down their legs, right?
They're, it's all, it's all abody, you know, it's all bodies.
Um, and the meaning that we placeon different parts of bodies
(28:07):
comes from all kinds of places.
So I, you know, what do I think isthe solution to this is, is, just is.
Um, read my book.
Um, uh, read other books.
Uh, I'm fine with peoplereading other books.
That's cool.
That's cool.
Um, uh, talking about your sexualfantasies and interests with your
platonic friends, normalizing that, andtalk to your partner and also practice
(28:33):
being a good listener for, you know,ask your partner what they're interested
in, because we always say, talk to yourpartner about your interests, but like,
talk to your partner about your interestsonly goes so far if your partner is not
being a good and compassionate listener,and also not then asking questions.
Ashley (28:50):
But talking to your partner can be easier or harder depending
on the intensity of your fetish.
Justin Lehmiller (28:56):
When we start talking about things like, how do you make
relationships work when say one partnerhas a kink or fetish and the other
partner doesn't share that, well, it'simportant to understand that nuance.
So is the kink or fetish arequirement for the individual?
Or is it just an enhancer?
Because if it's just an enhancer,it makes it a lot easier to find
other ways that you can connectand find common ground sexually.
(29:18):
But when one partner has one of theseexclusive or requirement level kinks
or fetishes and the other partnerdoesn't, share that interest at all.
It's not, it's not a bonusor an answer for them.
That's where you start to run intotension and conflict and it can become
very hard to make a sexual or romanticrelationship work because sometimes
the sexual disparity is just too wideto be able to find common ground.
Ashley (29:43):
In those cases, Dr.
Lehmiller has a couple of suggestions.
One is that you couldopen the relationship.
Justin Lehmiller (29:50):
Because then they can practice their kink or fetish sexual
activities with someone outside of theirprimary relationship, and they can have
vanilla sex with their primary partner.
Now, open relationshipsdon't work for everybody.
It's, it's not, you know, a simplesolution to just say, well, if you have
different sexual interests, just openup, and that'll solve all your problems.
No, it doesn't, it doesn'tquite work that way.
(30:12):
It's not that simple, and nonmonogamy isn't for everyone.
Ashley (30:15):
Option two is just to have vanilla sex with your partner and use pornography
and masturbation to fulfill that need.
Justin Lehmiller (30:21):
Now, sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't, because like
I said, sometimes the fetish interest isthis exclusive requirement, and so they
might not be able to find a way to engagewith their partner or find common ground.
And sometimes the answer, and Iknow people don't like to hear
it, but sometimes the answeris actually pretty simple.
Breakup and finding a partner who ismore sexually compatible with you.
So it is not always possible to bridgethe divide, but there are lots of things
(30:45):
you can try first before you get tothat phase of realizing, all right,
we're at an impasse and, and if sexis important to both of us, breakup
might be the only option because weneed to find partners who are more
compatible with our own interests.
Ashley (30:58):
In the end, though, a foot fetish, just like any other
kind of fetish or kink, is justanother form of human diversity.
When society better understands that,maybe they'll start to normalize it.
And when we start to normalize it, itstops being creepy, and starts being
something people feel comfortableexpressing to their partners, and
finding sexual fulfillment as a result.
(31:20):
No WikiFeet necessary.
Tina Horn (31:33):
You know, there's that expression, there's
no accounting for taste.
And I, I hope that people will learnto see someone who likes feet as just
someone who has a taste for feet, andthat doesn't mean it's to the exclusion
of an interest in anything else sexually.
(31:54):
I think that when we start to learn,like, you know, do I prefer Beatles or
Stones or do I prefer hot coffee or coldbrew, um, how do you like your, you know,
how much cream do you want in there?
How much sugar do you want in there?
I think that we start to identify, youknow, as a cream and sugar person or as
(32:18):
a, like, half calf, like, foam person.
And I hope that people can learn to seesexual tastes in that way because I think
that that unlocks something for peoplewhere they don't see it as something
totally separate from other kinds ofhuman experiences that are connected to
(32:41):
cerebral thought and deep emotion andprobably a lot of psychology and a lot of
nature and nurture and also is somethingthat can change throughout our lifetimes
and as something that people can thencreate community and organize around,
you know, and find compatibility around.
Ashley (33:06):
Thanks for listening.
Huge, massive thanks to JustinLehmiller, who I badgered for eight
months, I am not kidding, to come onthis podcast and talk about fetishes.
His book, where he surveyed 4, 000people about their sexual fantasies,
is Tell Me What You Want, TheScience of Sexual Desire and How It
Can Help You Improve Your Sex Life.
(33:27):
He also wrote a textbook calledThe Psychology of Human Sexuality.
His podcast is The Sex and PsychologyPodcast, and you can find that the
same place you found this podcast.
Big thanks also to TinaHorn, whose fantastic book
is Why Are People Into That?
A Cultural Investigation of Kink.
Her podcast is also calledWhy Are People Into That?
(33:49):
And both the book and the podcastcover a lot more kinks that this
miniseries didn't have time to cover.
You can find links to everything Ijust mentioned in the show notes.
Taboo Science is written andproduced by me, Ashley Hamer.
The theme song is by DannyLopatka of DLC Music.
Episode music is from Epidemic Sound.
This is the final officialepisode of the Philias miniseries.
(34:13):
We made it!
We'll be wrapping up with one extraepisode where I'm interviewed about
what I learned and other behindthe scenes details about the show.
If you've got questions for me, youhave a little more time to get them in.
Send them to ashley at tabooscience.
show or tweet them at tabooscience.
Thank you to everyone who'ssent in questions so far.
(34:35):
Thank you for comingwith me on this journey!
I hope you tune in to the final,final episode in two weeks.
I won't tell anyone.
A while back, I came across this TikTok from a woman named Elisa.
Her username is @msheavenonearthh.
She's on the beach, and it starts outwith a selfie view as she gets up from
a beach towel and some unseen strangerstell her that a man had been taking
pictures of her while she was sleeping.
They pointed him out, and she did whatI could never do in a million years.
(00:24):
She walks over and confronts him.
Elisa (00:27):
Yo, why are you recording me while I was sleeping?
Foot creep (00:30):
I didn't record you sleeping.
Elisa (00:31):
Yeah, I had like three people just told me that you were taking
pictures of me while I was sleeping.
Foot creep (00:35):
Just your feet.
Elisa (00:36):
No.
Ashley (00:37):
She makes him delete the pictures off his phone, along with some pictures
of high school girls who were sittingnear her, then takes his phone and deletes
the deleted pictures from the trash.
Her bravery is incredible, and I thinkit might be a product of the area.
The beach is right next to ConeyIsland, and this is clearly a take
no shit NYC girl through and through.
(00:59):
But what stuck out to me was his excuse.
He wasn't taking pictures of her butt.
He says he was takingpictures of her feet.
He says it again later.
Foot creep (01:09):
I didn't mean no harm or disrespect.
Elisa (01:11):
No, it's disrespectful.
'cause what if I did that while you weresleeping and took pictures of your butt?
Are you serious?
Foot creep (01:16):
I took pictures of your feet.
So.
Elisa (01:18):
My, and you got my back end.
That's crazy.
That's so crazy.
Ashley (01:21):
The idea that it's more okay to take creep shots of a person's feet than
some more traditionally sexualized bodypart is one of the things that makes foot
fetishes complicated, at least to me.
There's an aspect of manipulation there.
You don't know if the person hasa foot fetish, and they're taking
advantage of that fact to take thekinds of pictures that would be a
(01:43):
clear ethical violation if the personhad more garden variety interests.
The same goes for sites like WikiFeet,where people post pictures of feet
belonging to famous and semi famous women.
If a site were devoted to the boobsor butts of famous women, there might
be more of an outcry, but because it'sfeet, it's just something strange.
Of course, not everyone with foot fetishesacts the way this guy on the beach did.
(02:10):
And considering that it's one of theworld's most popular fetishes, the
creeps are likely a very small minority.
But here's my argument.
Some people with foot fetishesact creepy because society
sees foot fetishes as creepy.
Someone who feels shunned by society willdo things that get them shunned by society
(02:33):
because they've got nothing to lose.
The more we understand and welcomefoot fetishes as just one more
colorful form of human sexuality,the better off everyone will be.
And today, we're learning all about them.
I'm Ashley Hamer, and this is TabooScience, the podcast that answers the
questions you're not allowed to ask.
So, to start with the absolute basics: What is a fetish in the first place? (03:16):
undefined
Justin Lehmiller (03:21):
A fetish is a type of kink, right?
So if we use the term kink as kindof the umbrella term, that refers
to any sexual interest that kindof falls outside of the mainstream.
And a fetish would be aspecific type of kink.
Ashley (03:38):
That is Dr.
Justin Lehmiller.
Justin Lehmiller (03:40):
I'm a social psychologist and research
fellow at the Kinsey Institute.
I run the Sex and Psychology blogand podcast, and I'm author of the
book Tell Me What You Want, TheScience of Sexual Desire and How It
Can Help You Improve Your Sex Life.
Ashley (03:54):
I mentioned that book on the last episode.
It's the result of surveying morethan 4, 000 Americans about their
favorite sexual fantasy of all time.
It uncovered a lot of useful information,not only about less researched
interests like foot fetishes, butalso about how a person's fantasies
are connected to their personalitytraits, where they live, or other
(04:14):
elements of their personal background.
We'll talk more about that later.
Justin Lehmiller (04:19):
And so, with fetishes, what we're talking about are having a
fascination with a particular sensation,or object, or non genital body part.
And so, it's really just thisenduring fascination with something
that's, you know, isn't typicallya part of common sexual practices.
(04:42):
So that could be somethinglike feet or shoes.
It could basically be anythingthat you can think of, right?
People can have fetishesfor virtually anything.
And I think it's important to notethat fetishes are multi sensory.
So what it is that turns somebodyon who has a fetish might be the
look or appearance of something.
It could be the taste or smell of it.
(05:04):
It could be the sound of it.
It could be multiple sensesall combined at once.
So fetishes are kind of diverse in termsof their meaning to the individual.
Ashley (05:13):
Something you may have heard about fetishes is that they're exclusive.
If someone is into feet, feet are theonly thing that can turn them on sexually.
They get nothing fromquote unquote normal sex.
Like most things in human sexuality,this is only true of some people.
Justin Lehmiller (05:31):
Fetishes vary across persons in terms of
their strength and intensity.
And for a subset of people, fetishes arethese requirements for arousal and orgasm.
Like, they have to have thatfetish object in order to obtain
sexual pleasure or gratification.
However, for many people with fetishesthat are on kind of the more mild end
(05:51):
of the spectrum, um, the fetish isreally just an enhancer to sex and so
they can still enjoy non fetish sexto a very great degree or level and
if the fetish is added to it that'sjust like an extra bonus, right?
So you know that's one of the things worthrecognizing is that there's a little bit
more nuance to fetishes, you know, they'renot always these exclusive requirements.
(06:13):
And sometimes, and actually I thinkmore commonly, they just tend to be
these enhancers to sex that people mightjust pursue on occasion or only with
partners who might be interested in that.
Ashley (06:30):
So here's the eternal unanswerable question.
Where do fetishes come from?
Justin Lehmiller (06:36):
There's not a simple answer because I think two
people could develop a fetish forthe same thing, but they might
develop it for different reasons.
So I like to think of all sexualinterests, whether they're
fetishes or something else, oranother type of kink, let's say.
They are biopsychosocial in nature, sothere can be biological factors, for
(06:59):
example, your hormone levels that mightplay a role in terms of our general
level of sexual interest and desire,and that can sort of shape what we do
and how we behave sexually, and thatcan open the door to learning and
developing different sexual interestsif you're just more sexually active.
Also, you know, it depends onpsychological factors, so your
(07:19):
own unique personality traits.
For example, I find that peoplewho are very extroverted versus
very introverted tend to developpretty different sexual interests.
Ashley (07:29):
Yeah!
According to Dr.
Lehmiller's research, introvertstend to develop kinkier sexual
interests than extroverts.
The stereotype of the freakyband geek or the sexy librarian?
It's not too far from the truth.
Justin Lehmiller (07:44):
And then it also depends on our environment, you know,
the culture in which we're embedded andour relationship circumstances, you know,
the things that we're exposed to or thethings that are considered to be taboo
or deviant within our culture or society,you know, so all of these factors can
play a role in different ways in termsof developing something like a fetish.
(08:04):
But I would say probably the singlemost common way that fetishes develop is
that they're learned through experience.
And they're things that wecome to associate with sex
and with sexual pleasure.
So for example, if you had a sexualexperience, particularly if it was early
on, and let's say there was somethinglike shoes or stockings involved in
(08:27):
that, and this experience involved a verypowerful, very intense orgasm, that can
become a reinforcing variable, right?
And so it can make us want to pursuethat more in the future because we want
to repeat or replicate that intenseexperience of pleasure that we had.
So fetishes, I would say, are moreoften than not learned behaviors.
Ashley (08:48):
In fact, scientists have given people fetishes in the lab multiple times.
The most famous experiment on this waspublished in 1966 by a researcher named S.
Rachmann.
He invited three straight malepsychologist buddies into the
lab, had them put on a device thatmeasured blood flow to the penis,
and started showing them pictures.
Justin Lehmiller (09:10):
He would show these men images of nude women,
and for most heterosexual men,that's going to be arousing.
And so when they see the images ofthe nude women, they're registering
levels of genital arousal.
And then following the imagesof the nude women, he would show
them images of women's boots.
And for people who don't already havea foot fetish, you know, just seeing
an image of ladies boots probablyisn't going to do a whole lot for them.
(09:33):
So, you know, in the beginning,they would see the images of the
boots and they're not registeringor showing much sexual arousal.
But over time, when you present the imageof the nude woman, followed very closely
by images of women's boots, what yousee is that eventually, the men start
showing arousal to the boots alone, right?
(09:53):
Because the boots are becomingassociated with, they're becoming
a cue for sexual arousal.
Ashley (09:58):
Eventually, other researchers repeated the
experiment with subtle tweaks.
A researcher named M.
McConaghy did it with geometric shapes.
That experiment was with bothstraight and gay men, and it
got basically the same result.
And then in 1999, researchersJoseph Plaud and James Martini
did the experiment again.
Justin Lehmiller (10:19):
And so in that study, they followed the same experimental
design, except instead of showingimages of boots, they showed images
of a jar of pennies, which, youknow, is probably a highly unarousing
stimulus for most people, unlessyou're, like, really into money.
But, you know, they found the samepattern, uh, of associations there was
that over time participants in that studystarted to show arousal to that image of
(10:43):
a jar of pennies because it had becomethis learned cue for sexual arousal.
Ashley (10:49):
I was curious about this and maybe you are too.
Did the men then leave the labwith a lifelong fetish for pennies?
No.
Thankfully, this experiment, andall experiments like it, included an
extinction trial where they showed theconditioned stimulus, in this case,
the jar of pennies, a bunch of timeswithout the sexy images until the
(11:11):
volunteers didn't get aroused anymore.
Close one!
But if there's one thing you'veheard about the scientific reason for
foot fetishes, it's probably this.
Justin Lehmiller (11:30):
One that often gets thrown around is that in the brain, the
areas for sensation, where we registerthat in the brain for the feet, are
actually in very close proximity to theareas where we get genital sensation.
And so the thought is that maybe there'ssome overlap or even cross wiring in
some people that kind of leads to this,you know, sensation or stimulation to be
(11:55):
kind of associated with sexual arousal.
Ashley (12:02):
This idea was first posed by neuroscientist V.
S.
Ramachandran in the 90s.
The part of the brain we're talking abouthere is called the somatosensory cortex.
It's a narrow strip on the outside ofthe brain that contains basically all
of the sensory brain cells that connectwith different parts of your body.
It's almost like a map.
(12:22):
The tongue neurons are next to theteeth neurons, which are next to
the mouth neurons, which are nextto the face neurons, and so on.
Until you get to the hands and feet.
For some reason, the hands aremapped next to the face, and the
feet are mapped next to the genitals.
A psychology researcher named Martha J.
Farah came up with a fascinatingexplanation for this.
(12:45):
See, we're pretty sure the connections inthe somatosensory cortex form in the womb.
When we're all balled up in thefetal position, our hands are
closest to our face and our feetare closest to our genitals.
All that touching we do, with ourhands on our face and our feet on
our genitals, creates a lifelongchange in the brain that associates
those body parts with one another.
(13:07):
Cool, right?
So the idea is that the footneurons being so close to the
genital neurons might cause somecrosstalk, leading to foot fetishes.
But I see one problem with this.
It's about sensation, not attraction.
It might explain why someone getsoff on having their feet touched,
(13:27):
but it doesn't explain why peopleare attracted to someone else's feet.
Dr.
Lehmiller also doesn't totally buy it.
Justin Lehmiller (13:34):
I think it falls in the category of, hey, there could
potentially be something to it, butit feels like it might be too easy
or too simple of an explanation.
And I think when we're trying tounderstand the origins of where sexual
interests come from, people tendto be very easily seduced by simple
explanations, especially if you can throw,like, the brain into it in some way.
Tina Horn (13:57):
Desire is an art, not a science.
I mean, I think it's worthwhileto apply all kinds of science
to sexuality, for sure.
But when it comes to reallyunderstanding why are people into
that, there's never going to be justone answer that applies to everyone
or even applies to just one person.
(14:17):
It can change throughout the day, itcan change throughout a monthly cycle,
it can change throughout your lifetime,it can change in different dynamics.
It can be different in your solo sexlife masturbation fantasies in your head
versus what you like to do with people.
It can surprise you.
So as elusive and sometimes maddeningas that can be, I do think that we
(14:39):
have to accept that sexuality is likeslippery, if you'll forgive the use of
that word, and it's like the sun, youlike shouldn't look at it directly.
Ashley (14:49):
That is Tina Horn.
Tina Horn (14:51):
I'm a writer I identify as an educatrix, combining my background
in professional BDSM with educationof all kinds across many mediums.
I'm also apodcaster.
I have a podcast calledWhy Are People Into That.
The book version of Why Are PeopleInto That is going to be out
from Hachette Press in June 2024.
Ashley (15:14):
Meaning it's out now.
I've read it, and if you're at allinterested in the stuff that I talk about
on this podcast, you are going to love it.
Tina also has certain interests thatare relevant to the topic at hand.
You are into feet, correct?
Tina Horn (15:30):
Do you want to see my feet?
Ashley (15:32):
No, thank you.
I'm sure they're lovely.
Tina Horn (15:35):
Great.
Well, that's good becauseI would have to charge you.
Ashley (15:40):
Okay.
So, um, why, why are you into feet?
Tina's answer, plus a lot more aboutfoot fetishes, when we come back.
So I asked Tina why she's intofeet, and here was her answer.
Tina Horn (16:01):
This, you know, probably like says a lot about the way that I
see the world and that I see sexuality.
Like, I see feet as having like anenormous amount of personality and
as being like little characters.
Sounds creepy, like a creepy puppet,but I see feet as like little microcosms
(16:23):
of the people that they're attached to,and When I am into a person, erotically,
I just become so, like, obsessed withand curious about their body, and I'm
absolutely curious about their butts,and I'm absolutely curious about their
genitals, and I'm absolutely curious abouttheir tits and their nipples, and I'm,
(16:47):
like, absolutely curious about their,their face, you know, their hair, all
the hair, all the places on their body.
And, like, feet.
Just kind of feel like, like a part ofmany people's bodies that just has sort
of so much to say about who they are.
(17:08):
And I just, I like love to worship themboth in a devotional way, but also in
a, um, just like, being a sensory pigand wanting to just like, rub my face
up against, um, the people that I like.
I'm a very like, scent motivated person,so feet tend to have a strong scent
(17:29):
that tells you a lot about a person.
I mean, I personally like thingsthat are stinky, um, but even if
someone's feet aren't particularly,like, sweaty or stinky, like, that
still also says something aboutthem, and that's interesting.
Um, I feel like people neglect theirfeet, so I like to take care of them.
(17:50):
I like to give people pleasure byrubbing them and worshipping them.
I like to see the look on somebody'sface when I just, like, want to
get my face up in their feet.
Ashley (18:02):
There's also an element of submission in foot worship
that appeals to some people.
Tina Horn (18:07):
I'm not an extremely submissive person.
But I have definitely had experiences ofbeing in the bottom position in a kink
scene and having somebody put their feeton me in a way that was sort of like,
I'm not in charge, I'm not in control.
You know, some people love to beobjectified as like a footstool, the
(18:29):
sort of like taking care of somebody'sfeet or pampering their feet is
very much an act of service, right?
So if you want to think aboutthat as a love language.
An act of service, but also serviceis a very big part of a lot of leather
community, BDSM play for a lot of people.
Um, uh, so, you know, being in serviceto someone by taking care of their feet.
(18:53):
Um, yeah, trampling, pressure.
I mean, yeah, I love to, like,I love to walk on people.
Ashley (19:01):
So what's so funny about this, this very detailed explanation of why
you're into it is I feel like it doesn'tline up with a lot of people's conception
of a foot fetish, which is people lookingat foot pics online, paying for foot pics.
There's wiki feet, you know, it's, butit doesn't sound like foot pictures
are at all part of your thing.
(19:21):
It has, they're attached tothe person that you're into.
Tina Horn (19:24):
Oh, that's interesting.
I mean, I, I'm not a super visual person.
But there's no moral valence to that.
Like, I'm much more of a sensory,tactile kind of person, so I do want to
stress that I don't think that there'sanything wrong with enjoying looking at
pictures of feet and being a visuallymotivated person, or even the sort of foot
(19:45):
partialism of fixating on feet and likenot really caring who they're attached to.
Like if there's a certain kind offoot that you enjoy looking at,
enjoy fantasizing about, um, and youdon't really care if it's attached
to like, you know, your mom's friendat the pool or Emma Stone, I don't
(20:05):
know, or, you know, Ryan Gosling,um, whomever, uh, Idris Elba.
I'm sure Idris Elba has amazing feet,actually, now that I think about it.
Ashley (20:13):
Probably, yeah.
Tina Horn (20:14):
But, uh, so I want to stress that my interest in feet
often does have to do with whothey're attached to and, like, having
an experience with that person.
But it's also just becauseI'm more tactilely motivated.
So, um, somebody who is morevisually motivated might enjoy
looking at pictures of feet.
And also, um, sometimes people whoenjoy looking at pictures of feet do
(20:36):
get an erotic charge from the personthat they know that it is connected to.
So sometimes the picturesare not disembodied.
Sometimes it's, you know, the footis in focus in the foreground of the
frame and, you know, the person isattached to it, extending behind it.
And sometimes, you know, being sentfoot pics by someone who you would like
(20:58):
to fuck or you find attractive can bea part of the visual element as well.
Ashley (21:03):
As a woman, Tina is outside the majority for this fetish.
Men are more likely to identify ashaving a foot fetish than women.
And according to Dr.
Lehmiller, there's probablya cultural reason for that.
Justin Lehmiller (21:16):
So if you think, for example, about the way that feet, and
in particular women's feet, are oftendepicted in the media and in advertising
and in popular culture, you know, feet arevery sexualized, you know, in, in a lot of
ads and in a lot of movies and TV shows.
You know, if you think about, forexample, the prominent role that
footwear played in shows like Sex andthe City or in the movie Barbie, and,
(21:40):
you know, the way that women's feetare depicted, I think that that is one
of the things that can start to createthis association between feet and sexual
arousal, and we can kind of learn thatover time through what we're exposed to.
Ashley (21:55):
But men's feet don't get that kind of media treatment.
Justin Lehmiller (21:58):
I mean, just try and think for a moment.
Can you think of any examples of men'sfeet being depicted in very sexy ways?
Like, when men's feet are shownor discussed in the media,
they're often talked about askind of being gross, right?
As opposed to being like a sex symbol.
So, you know, I think that that'spart of the reason for why there's
a big gender difference there.
(22:20):
If I'm remembering my data correctly,I think gay men were actually even
more likely to have foot fetishesthan heterosexual men, which is
interesting in light of, you know,what I just said about sort of the
cultural explanation because men's feetdon't tend to be kind of sexualized,
uh, in the media in the same way.
So there's something interesting goingon with gay and bisexual men where feet
(22:41):
really seem to be a pretty prominentfetish in particular in that community.
And something that's worth mentioning isjust that in general, sexual minorities,
and in particular sexual minority men,tend to have more kinks and fetishes
compared to cisgender heterosexual people.
And I think one possible explanationfor that is when you've already, you
(23:04):
know, sort of broken the norms orviolated one sexual taboo and you know
if you're gay or bisexual you've alreadyviolated the norm of heterosexuality.
I think that kind of opens thedoor to exploring your sexuality
more fully because it becomes lesscostly to violate other taboos once
you've already violated a big onelike the norm of heterosexuality.
(23:29):
So I think that could potentiallybe at play in terms of why gay
and bi men tend to have more footfetishes than heterosexual men.
Ashley (23:37):
In my interviews, the same point has been made about trans people tending
to be kinkier than the general population.
They've already violated a hugegender norm, so why not explore what
other norms are worth violating?
(24:02):
To come full circle, I wanted toask my guests about why people with
foot fetishes have a stereotypeof being creepy, like the guy in
the TikTok at the top of the show.
Why does that stereotype exist?
Tina and Dr.
Lehmiller both said the same thing.
Tina Horn (24:24):
I think that we think that people who Like, feet are creepy because
mental health institutions have beendefining, you know, partialism, like
an interest in a part of the body thatis not a primary or secondary sexual
characteristic that we've decided islike normal to be sexually interested in.
(24:47):
Mental health institutions have definedthat as a sickness for a very long time.
Justin Lehmiller (24:53):
So I don't think there's truth to the idea that people who
have fetishes, whether they're feet orsomething else, are necessarily or more
likely to be sexually interested in sexualdeviants who are going to go out and,
you know, commit sex crimes or engage insexual harassment or things like that.
Like, I'm not aware of any dataor evidence to support that idea.
(25:15):
But I think where this comes fromis that there's long been a stigma,
not just against foot fetishes, butabout all fetishes and all kinks,
you know, especially anything BDSMrelated, because historically in the
DSM, which is the psychiatry bible,fetishes and sadomasochism have been
classified as paraphilias, which refersto an unusual sexual interest, and
(25:40):
they were considered to be disordersthat were in need of treatment.
And it wasn't really until the early2010s when the DSM for the first time
made a distinction between having aparaphilia, so having an unusual sexual
interest, versus having a paraphilicdisorder, which is having an unusual
interest that either causes distressto the individual or is causing harm to
(26:03):
someone else because maybe it's, let'ssay, being engaged in non consensually.
So it's very, very recent as aphenomenon for psychiatry and psychology
to have really tried to kind of destigmatize unusual sexual interests.
And so it's kind of hard to fightthat long standing baggage of
people associating fetish and kinkand S& M with disorder, right?
(26:29):
The field no longer considers thesethings to be disorders today unless, you
know, they're causing distress or harm.
I think that nuance is kindof lost on a lot of folks.
Tina Horn (26:40):
Like, where do our ideas about sexuality come from, I
ask, in Why Are People Into That?
A Cultural Investigation of Kink and, youknow, some of it is the moral imperialism
of powerful churches and religions.
Some of it is certainly the law.
So I think that the result of that, Iknow that the result of that is that
(27:01):
people who In coming into their sexualunderstanding in adolescence and young
adulthood, when they realize that they'returned on by something, that they are
seeing messages makes them creepy, then itbecomes this like self fulfilling prophecy
or this like feedback loop, where thenpeople feel bad, and then that, like,
(27:23):
tamping down of shame can contribute tomaladaptive behavior, like seeking out
images of people's feet on the internetwithout their consent, or staring at
people's feet in sandals without theirconsent because they feel like they can't
say to a partner, I would love to touchyour feet, I would love your feet in my
(27:44):
mouth, whereas I think that people havingtheir first sexual experiences, you
know, don't feel like they need to havea conversation before they put somebody's
tits in their mouth or somebody's genitalsin their mouth, um, or, or kiss their
neck or kiss down their legs, right?
They're, it's all, it's all abody, you know, it's all bodies.
Um, and the meaning that we placeon different parts of bodies
(28:07):
comes from all kinds of places.
So I, you know, what do I think isthe solution to this is, is, just is.
Um, read my book.
Um, uh, read other books.
Uh, I'm fine with peoplereading other books.
That's cool.
That's cool.
Um, uh, talking about your sexualfantasies and interests with your
platonic friends, normalizing that, andtalk to your partner and also practice
(28:33):
being a good listener for, you know,ask your partner what they're interested
in, because we always say, talk to yourpartner about your interests, but like,
talk to your partner about your interestsonly goes so far if your partner is not
being a good and compassionate listener,and also not then asking questions.
Ashley (28:50):
But talking to your partner can be easier or harder depending
on the intensity of your fetish.
Justin Lehmiller (28:56):
When we start talking about things like, how do you make
relationships work when say one partnerhas a kink or fetish and the other
partner doesn't share that, well, it'simportant to understand that nuance.
So is the kink or fetish arequirement for the individual?
Or is it just an enhancer?
Because if it's just an enhancer,it makes it a lot easier to find
other ways that you can connectand find common ground sexually.
(29:18):
But when one partner has one of theseexclusive or requirement level kinks
or fetishes and the other partnerdoesn't, share that interest at all.
It's not, it's not a bonusor an answer for them.
That's where you start to run intotension and conflict and it can become
very hard to make a sexual or romanticrelationship work because sometimes
the sexual disparity is just too wideto be able to find common ground.
Ashley (29:43):
In those cases, Dr.
Lehmiller has a couple of suggestions.
One is that you couldopen the relationship.
Justin Lehmiller (29:50):
Because then they can practice their kink or fetish sexual
activities with someone outside of theirprimary relationship, and they can have
vanilla sex with their primary partner.
Now, open relationshipsdon't work for everybody.
It's, it's not, you know, a simplesolution to just say, well, if you have
different sexual interests, just openup, and that'll solve all your problems.
No, it doesn't, it doesn'tquite work that way.
(30:12):
It's not that simple, and nonmonogamy isn't for everyone.
Ashley (30:15):
Option two is just to have vanilla sex with your partner and use pornography
and masturbation to fulfill that need.
Justin Lehmiller (30:21):
Now, sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't, because like
I said, sometimes the fetish interest isthis exclusive requirement, and so they
might not be able to find a way to engagewith their partner or find common ground.
And sometimes the answer, and Iknow people don't like to hear
it, but sometimes the answeris actually pretty simple.
Breakup and finding a partner who ismore sexually compatible with you.
So it is not always possible to bridgethe divide, but there are lots of things
(30:45):
you can try first before you get tothat phase of realizing, all right,
we're at an impasse and, and if sexis important to both of us, breakup
might be the only option because weneed to find partners who are more
compatible with our own interests.
Ashley (30:58):
In the end, though, a foot fetish, just like any other
kind of fetish or kink, is justanother form of human diversity.
When society better understands that,maybe they'll start to normalize it.
And when we start to normalize it, itstops being creepy, and starts being
something people feel comfortableexpressing to their partners, and
finding sexual fulfillment as a result.
(31:20):
No WikiFeet necessary.
Tina Horn (31:33):
You know, there's that expression, there's
no accounting for taste.
And I, I hope that people will learnto see someone who likes feet as just
someone who has a taste for feet, andthat doesn't mean it's to the exclusion
of an interest in anything else sexually.
(31:54):
I think that when we start to learn,like, you know, do I prefer Beatles or
Stones or do I prefer hot coffee or coldbrew, um, how do you like your, you know,
how much cream do you want in there?
How much sugar do you want in there?
I think that we start to identify, youknow, as a cream and sugar person or as
(32:18):
a, like, half calf, like, foam person.
And I hope that people can learn to seesexual tastes in that way because I think
that that unlocks something for peoplewhere they don't see it as something
totally separate from other kinds ofhuman experiences that are connected to
(32:41):
cerebral thought and deep emotion andprobably a lot of psychology and a lot of
nature and nurture and also is somethingthat can change throughout our lifetimes
and as something that people can thencreate community and organize around,
you know, and find compatibility around.
Ashley (33:06):
Thanks for listening.
Huge, massive thanks to JustinLehmiller, who I badgered for eight
months, I am not kidding, to come onthis podcast and talk about fetishes.
His book, where he surveyed 4, 000people about their sexual fantasies,
is Tell Me What You Want, TheScience of Sexual Desire and How It
Can Help You Improve Your Sex Life.
(33:27):
He also wrote a textbook calledThe Psychology of Human Sexuality.
His podcast is The Sex and PsychologyPodcast, and you can find that the
same place you found this podcast.
Big thanks also to TinaHorn, whose fantastic book
is Why Are People Into That?
A Cultural Investigation of Kink.
Her podcast is also calledWhy Are People Into That?
(33:49):
And both the book and the podcastcover a lot more kinks that this
miniseries didn't have time to cover.
You can find links to everything Ijust mentioned in the show notes.
Taboo Science is written andproduced by me, Ashley Hamer.
The theme song is by DannyLopatka of DLC Music.
Episode music is from Epidemic Sound.
This is the final officialepisode of the Philias miniseries.
(34:13):
We made it!
We'll be wrapping up with one extraepisode where I'm interviewed about
what I learned and other behindthe scenes details about the show.
If you've got questions for me, youhave a little more time to get them in.
Send them to ashley at tabooscience.
show or tweet them at tabooscience.
Thank you to everyone who'ssent in questions so far.
(34:35):
Thank you for comingwith me on this journey!
I hope you tune in to the final,final episode in two weeks.
I won't tell anyone.
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