March 21, 2024 • 32 mins
It's here! The premiere episode of Taboo Science's new miniseries "Philias": an exploration into the science of kinks and fetishes. In this 101 episode, we learn the difference between a kink, fetish, paraphilia, and paraphilic disorder; we'll take a tour of the many, many kinds of kink that exist; and we'll find out what scientists know about where these desires come from—and what they don't know. With insights from renowned paraphilia researcher Christian Joyal and pornstar/internet celebrity/kink researcher Aella, we'll dismantle society's narrow definitions of "normal" sex and shed light on humanity's boundless sexual creativity. Whether you're a seasoned kinkster or you're just here for the science, this premiere is a salacious must-listen.
Resources from Aella:
- Big kink survey: https://www.guidedtrack.com/programs/u4m797m/run
- Mini kink survey, if you don't have time: https://www.guidedtrack.com/programs/am6xux0/run
- Website: https://knowingless.com/
- Blog: https://aella.substack.com/
- X: https://twitter.com/Aella_Girl
- Aella's appearance on the Lex Fridman podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFSrxSBrgSc
Resources from Christian Joyal:
- University of Quebec faculty page: https://oraprdnt.uqtr.uquebec.ca/pls/public/genw050.afficher_fiche_perso?owa_cd_secteur=0800&owa_cd_fonction=49&owa_no_personne=134064&owa_contexte=$211-37
- Philippe-Pinel Institute faculty page: https://pinel.qc.ca/christian-joyal-ph-d/
- Research on Google Scholar: https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,5&q=c+joyal&oq=
See citations and a transcript here: https://www.tabooscience.show/039-kink101/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ashley (00:00):
Just a quick content note, this episode deals with some pretty
(00:03):
heavy subjects, including sexualviolence, child abuse, and some
quick mentions of gross stuff.
If that's not for you, noworries, just sit this one out.
When you think about kink,what do you think about?
If your main exposure is throughpopular media, your conception of kink
(00:26):
probably comes in two different flavors.
There's the fun, sexy, sometimessilly kind, the sitcom mom who
wants to spice up her marriage withfuzzy handcuffs and a blindfold.
The comedian who professes herlove of dirty talk and spanking.
That one scene where a young ChrisEvans puts whipped cream on his
nipples and a banana in his butt?
(00:46):
Yeah, look it up.
Then there's the dangerous kind.
The leather clad dominatrix whotraps the straight male protagonist
in her dungeon, where hijinks ensue.
The creepy shoe storeowner with a foot fetish.
The serial killer who likesdressing up in women's clothes.
The way we're taught to view kink iseither as an acceptable addition to a
(01:10):
normal, heterosexual, monogamous privatesex life, or something pathological, done
by deviant people with dark intentions.
Anthropologist Margot Weiss saysthat makes us spectators of kink,
who label and judge from a safe,normal, privileged position instead
of understanding its nuanced reality.
(01:33):
We keep kink at a distance.
And in this miniseries, Iwant to shorten that distance.
I'm going to show you that kinksand fetishes are so much more.
I'm calling this series Philias, after theGreek word and scientific suffix for love.
(01:57):
That suffix most often comes atthe end of the word paraphilia.
which is by definition an abnormaldesire, a deviant kind of love.
But as we'll learn if we haven'talready, science is notoriously
bad at defining what's normal.
Instead, the many kinks and fetishesthat exist out in the world are a
(02:19):
beautiful illustration of how diverseand interesting humans really are.
Today we're taking our first diveinto the deep sea of Philias to
understand that we've all got a weirdlittle something that gets us going.
I'm Ashley Hamer, and this is TabooScience, the podcast that answers the
(02:40):
questions you're not allowed to ask.
(03:02):
First, some definitions.
Kink.
That's an umbrella term that encompassesany sexual interest that falls outside
the mainstream, and a fetish is aheightened attraction to certain objects
or body parts besides the genitals.
By those definitions, a lotof seemingly mainstream sexual
interests could be considered kinks.
(03:24):
Are you a butt man?
Are you into Catholic schoolgirl outfits?
Do you get extra turned onwearing lingerie or leather?
Congratulations!
You're in the kink club.
Your paperwork's in the mail.
Christian Joyal (03:37):
So you can have an interest in something
that is what we call kinky.
For instance, being tied up onyour bed, it's considered kinky.
For me, it's just, you liketo spice up your sex life,
that's it, it's really good.
So this is just a kinky interest.
Ashley (03:56):
That's Dr.
Christian Joyal.
Christian Joyal (03:58):
I am a professor in the psychology department of
University of Quebec, and also I am afull time researcher at the Philippe
Pinel Institute in Montreal, whichis a forensic mental health hospital.
Ashley (04:14):
Dr.
Joyal is kind of a big deal.
More than one guest agreed to come on thispodcast after I mentioned I talked to him.
Anyway, one step above kinky iswhat scientists call a paraphilia.
The definition of paraphilia comesfrom the DSM, the Diagnostic and
Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.
That's the big list of mentaldisorders that's used by not only
(04:36):
mental health professionals, butalso by courts and lawmakers.
So it's pretty important thatit's accurate about what's
normal and what's pathological.
Specifically, the DSM definesparaphilia as any intense and
persistent sexual interest otherthan sexual interest in genital
stimulation or preparatory fondlingwith phenotypically normal, physically
(04:59):
mature, and consenting human partners.
The interest needs to be equal orgreater to the person's interest
in that aforementioned normalsex, which also has a name.
Christian Joyal (05:09):
So this is what they used to call normophilia.
They don't call it normophilia anymore.
But it was a new term, which meansliking something that is normal.
But what is normal exactly?
Ashley (05:25):
And then there's one more step above a paraphilia.
Christian Joyal (05:28):
If, above that, you are distressed or if it interferes with
your everyday life, for instance, you'realways thinking about sex, you're looking
at porn at your job, it's interfering,now you have a paraphilic disorder.
Ashley (05:49):
The problem with these definitions is that they all rely
on a solid definition of normal.
But that definition of normal is basedon common belief, not actual data.
So Dr.
Joyal and his team decidedto do their own research.
Christian Joyal (06:04):
We began to interview people from the general population and
we asked them What they like and whatthey didn't like in their sex life.
Ashley (06:14):
And a whole lot of people liked stuff that the
DSM did not consider normal.
Christian Joyal (06:20):
According to the DSM, a sexual fantasy is sufficient
to be labeled as a paraphilia.
It depends.
It depends.
You can have red flags, likewhere we work at Pinel Institute.
We are working with, uh, paraphilia.
People who have a diagnosis of pedophilia.
We are working with people who arerapists and in, in certain cases, a given
(06:45):
sexual fantasy could be a really bigred flag, but in most cases it is not.
So only to have a sexual fantasy about,let's say being took by force or being
raped, we saw that in two thirds of women.
Ashley (07:06):
Two thirds of women had a rape fantasy.
Two thirds!
Now, this doesn't mean that two thirdsof women actually want to be raped.
It's a fantasy.
Christian Joyal (07:17):
There is a big difference between a sexual fantasy, which is in
your head, which the main purpose ofa sexual fantasy is to get aroused.
So big difference between thisand a sexual wish or desire.
Especially among women.
They wrote to us, like, I certainlydon't want to live it for real.
(07:39):
Of course.
But in my mind, in my head, I getexcited with that idea that my
husband, my boyfriend, whatever,my partner, is taking me by force.
But it's only in your head.
But just because it's in your headdoesn't mean it's not doing anything.
As far as you are excited with thatidea, well, the sexual fantasy is just
(08:04):
working fine, and it's perfect, andthe more you have sexual fantasies,
we've realized, the more you aresexually satisfied with your sex life.
So this is really good.
Ashley (08:19):
So what's the deal?
The DSM has said for decades that thingslike rape fantasies are abnormal, yet Dr.
Joyal can go out, survey a portion of thepopulation, and find out they're wrong.
And not only are they wrong, andthese aren't a harmful form of
deviance, but these fantasies areactually improving people's sex lives.
Even the straight, monogamous, married,private sex lives society approves of.
(08:43):
There must be tons of research likehis saying the same thing, right?
Where's the disconnect?
Well, until recently, therewas almost no funding to do
the kind of research that Dr.
Joyal does.
Christian Joyal (08:55):
Ten years ago, it was totally impossible to do that
kind of research because we couldnot never ever have any grants.
Money to do the research onany sexual things except AIDS
and stuff like that and rapes.
Sexual diversity, nobody cares about that.
(09:17):
But really nobody.
So we began to do it onour own on the weekends.
We don't have holidays.
Because we are freak and geek.
Working for free to do that kind of thing.
Because we are curious.
Ashley (09:35):
But then something shifted.
Christian Joyal (09:38):
After the MeToo movement, everything changed.
Everything changed.
We got a lot of grand opportunitiesto work on sexuality in general.
Ashley (09:49):
So until recently, research into sexual diversity was almost non existent.
Most of the people doing it weredoing it for free on weekends.
Because they were curious about it.
Which brings me to Aellla.
Aella (10:06):
Hey, I am Aella.
I am a sex worker and more dominantlylately a sex researcher where I
study fetishes on the internet a lot.
Ashley (10:15):
Aella is a kind of internet celebrity.
She has 200, 000 followers on X, her owndiscord with more than 6, 000 members,
and a popular blog called Knowing Lesswhere she recently posted about her
birthday gangbang, complete with a Sankeydiagram of how she sourced the attendees.
(10:36):
Also, I just learned she wason the Lex Friedman podcast?
Scooped again by one of thetop podcasts in the world.
Okay.
Anyway, the reason I wanted to talkto her, besides all that, was that
she has authored what is probablythe largest survey on kinks and
fetishes ever performed, with over700, 000 respondents as of October
(10:58):
2023, and probably way more now.
And she did it out of sheer curiosity.
I have a couple
Aella (11:05):
really fucked up kinks and I was like, I want to
know how fucked up they are.
Um, but when you want to know howfucked up they are, you have to
measure all the other kinks to compare.
And then, then I started measuring otherkinks and then this started a whole thing.
Are
Ashley (11:17):
you comfortable sharing what fucked up kinks you personally have?
Or we can leave that out too.
I would love to
Aella (11:22):
because I want to bring less shame to the world.
However, I, my brain is not capableof letting me talk about them.
Even when I have a partner, Ihave a partner who I trust deeply.
I'm in love with and they'relike, Oh, just like, let me know.
And then I just can't likeforce it out of my throat.
Ashley (11:36):
Aella doesn't have a college degree.
She's had to learn statistics on the fly.
And when the number of responsesto her survey became too huge for
Google sheets, She learned Python.
She is an autodidact, whichreally sounds like it should
be a term for a sexual kink.
Even so, she believes that herresearch is of a higher quality
(11:56):
than a lot of what's out there.
Aella (11:58):
Recently I'd finally started wading through the literature and I
was like, holy shit, the things thatI'm doing are actually much better than
what currently exists in the literature.
There's just not much.
And the stuff that does exist is,um, it's like not necessarily the
academic's fault because it's verydifficult to get good distributed
samples on something like this.
People don't want to talkabout their research.
Um, and if you're selecting forthe people that do, in most cases,
(12:21):
this is a confounding effect.
I may not be perfect, but rightnow, I like might be one of the
best that people that we've got,which I would love to change.
I would love for other peopleto come and do better than I am.
It's just nobody else is doing that.
So fuck it.
Ashley (12:33):
Right.
So tell me, tell me about what it isthat you're doing that's better than
what is in the research currently.
Aella (12:38):
I think the biggest difference is that I don't come
from an academic background.
I come from a background of marketing.
In my mind, it's like, if you wanta large sample, you want people to
take your survey, and getting peopleto do things on the internet is like
what I've been doing for 10 years,because, like, sex worker, right?
And I think that this attitude of,like, how do I market, like, how
do I treat surveys as a product,basically, is not something that
(13:02):
the academics think about at all.
You have professors, uh, payinggrad students and, you know,
grades or whatever, or undergrads.
Or like, um, you go to a forum dedicatedto talking about BDSM and then you ask the
people on that forum to take your survey.
Ashley (13:16):
So how does Aella get people to take her survey?
Well, she took a page fromthe BuzzFeed playbook.
When you finish the survey, it tellsyou your kink score and which popular
character that's equivalent to.
Bambi and Goku are theleast kinky on the scale.
Willy Wonka and the genie fromAladdin are stone cold freaks.
So why'd she use these characters?
Aella (13:39):
So people would share it with their friends.
The survey is like really thorough,like the, the results that you get.
This actually did put quite a lot ofwork into making it a meaningful result.
Like huge amount, likea month worth of work.
But like when you get the actualresult that you want it to be something
that like gives you a hit of pleasurein some way, um, and also makes you
want to share it with other people.
And like characters are a perfect wayto do it because it gives you some
(14:00):
information but it's still interpretable.
But you can share it with yourfriends without them knowing
about your sexuality directly.
Uh, you're sort of an artisticrepresentation of your sex life.
Ashley (14:09):
So, survey respondents got a popular character to share with their
friends, and in return, Aella got amassive trove of data that she could
use to determine all sorts of things.
To answer her original question,she put a bunch of kinks and
fetishes on a graph based on howpopular and how taboo they were.
So I'm sure you want to knowthe most popular fetish in
the entire survey, right?
(14:31):
I'll tell you after the break.
So before we get into the most popularfetish in Aella's survey, there's
one thing you have to understand.
Despite the dictionary definitions,what makes something a kink or
(14:51):
a fetish is pretty subjective.
Aella (14:54):
People sort of treat fetishes like either a sexual
interest is a fetish or it's not.
I think things are muchmore on a spectrum.
Like, what determinessomething being fetishy?
Is it like how common it is?
Is it how like weird and fucked up it is?
Ultimately, I call everything asexual interest, and the more taboo
and rare you go, the more likely itis that we view this as a fetish.
So, it depends on your cutoff, but likeI mean, I would consider like straight
(15:16):
missionary sex to be a sexual interest.
Ashley (15:19):
So understanding that, the most popular sexual interest in
the entire survey was making out.
It was also the least taboo.
The least popular, most taboointerest was pedophilia.
Just edging out necrophilia.
Foot fetishes get a 1 on the 1 to 5taboo scale, while blood is more of a 3.
(15:43):
5.
Lots of people like light bondage,not that many people like farts.
Aella also did factoranalysis on the data.
That's a statistical method thattakes a huge number of variables,
like this cavalcade of kinks, andreduces them into smaller groups.
This is the way they do theBig Five personality survey,
if you've ever heard of that.
(16:04):
That's the one thatmeasures you on five traits.
Openness, conscientiousness, extroversion,agreeableness, and neuroticism.
Have you ever wondered how theylanded on those five traits?
Factor analysis, baby!
Aella (16:17):
The Big Five personality survey they generated by basically asking
people a whole bunch of personalityquestions, everybody answered, and then
they noticed like, oh, this clusterof questions tends to be similar
and opposite to this other cluster.
So you can kind of like find likelinear patterns in the dataset,
basically, like natural ones.
The people who tend to answer,oh, I like being alone at parties,
uh, are opposite to the peoplesaying I like a lot of attention.
(16:39):
So it's like natural trends that emerge.
So you can do this to the fetish datasetto see the natural trends that emerge.
Ashley (16:44):
So, through factor analysis, Aella broke the data down into ten clusters.
Ten groups of kinks and fetishesthat tend to be associated with each
other, in the same way that likingparties and chatting up cashiers
are both associated with extroverts.
She didn't give them labels, but I'mgoing to do my best to name them.
So some of these mightcause a reaction in you.
(17:06):
Like, not the good kind.
And I just want toremind you about what Dr.
Joyal said.
Just because someone has afantasy doesn't mean they're
looking to do it in real life.
Okay, here we go.
The Ten Kinds of Kinks!
(17:31):
Factor 1 is power dynamics.
Things like bondage, spanking,humiliation, and rape play.
Factor 2 I'm calling swinging.
That's stuff like voyeurism andexhibitionism, anonymous sex,
multiple partners, and cuckoldry.
That's where one partner in a couple hassex with someone else because it gives
the other partner sexual gratification.
(17:53):
Stay tuned for a full episode on that one.
Factor 3 I'm going to say,is the vanilla factor.
Makeouts, romance, tickling, andsensuality are all grouped here.
Factor 4 is for the monster fuckers.
This includes monsters, tails and horns,bestiality, animal transformation, and
oviposition, which is where you get off onthe idea of having eggs laid inside you.
(18:18):
Furries are also here, and furriesalso get their own episode.
Factors 5 and 7 are for extreme femininityand extreme masculinity, respectively.
Breast implants, high heels.
Pigtails and skirts on oneside, being gay, submission,
and receiving pain on the other.
Between 5 and 7 is gender play.
(18:39):
Things like pegging, which is usinga strap on dildo in a butt, usually
a male butt, and sissification,where a submissive man is forced to
take on a traditional female role.
Things that blur the genderbinary for fun and profit.
Factor 8 is horror.
Creepy kinks like blood, zombies,necrophilia, and brutality are
(18:59):
grouped together in this one.
Factor 9 I'm calling disgust.
Scat and urine, diapers, armpits,farts, and feet are here.
And finally, Factor 10 is incest andage play, where people take on the
persona of a different age group.
Remember, fantasies are not reality.
(19:22):
So what is it that makessomeone aroused by this stuff?
I mean, humans evolved to avoid pain,gross and scary things, humiliation, and
a lot of the other items on this list.
In order to procreate, we evolved tobe attracted to an adult member of
the opposite sex of our own species.
All of this was literally essentialto our survival as a species.
(19:44):
Why do some people get off on thestuff that we'd usually avoid?
Christian Joyal (19:48):
People, for instance, who are, they know that they are
totally homosexual, for instance.
But they knew it whenthey were 8 years old.
And when they were 18 yearsold, and 40 years old.
I mean, if you are really gay,you knew it for a long time.
A long time.
(20:08):
It's the same with exclusive pedophilia.
When we interview people with pedophilia,the, at eight years old, nine, 10
years old, they were attracted towardpeople their age, but as they grew
up, they were still attracted towardpeople like eight, nine, 10 years old.
(20:29):
So this it's, it's really clear.
So those are people whohave exclusive pedophilia.
Yeah.
And there are therapies, uh, notconversion therapies, but therapies
to make them aware that this is notonly it's incorrect, but maybe you
should not have a sex life after all.
(20:51):
That being said, it's the same forpeople who are really into BDSM.
They told us, when I was sixyears old, seven years old.
It was not sexual at all, of course, butthey were so into bondage, for instance.
And they, they were hooked on, youknow, little books like Tintin.
(21:16):
Tintin, Tintin, in French it's
Ashley (21:20):
Tintin.
Christian Joyal (21:20):
Tintin, okay, in French it's Tintin.
Ashley (21:23):
This might be before your time, it's definitely before mine, but when
I googled Tintin I recognized him.
He's the little cartoon redhead man withthe flipped up hair and a white dog.
Anyway, he's a fictional reporter whogoes on all sorts of adventures and
frequently finds himself captured.
Christian Joyal (21:39):
He's always in every book.
He's bonded.
So he's restrained.
And a lot of our respondentstold us that they were excited.
It was not yet sexually, but theythought it was so interesting.
And me personally, Ididn't even notice that.
(22:01):
Tintin was bonded in Africa, forinstance, but they told us, yes, yes, yes.
Ashley (22:08):
It's important to point out that Tintin didn't necessarily make
these people interested in BDSM.
The interest most likely started inchildhood, and happened to find an
outlet in these Belgian comic books.
But if you're that adult rememberingyour days reading Tintin and getting
excited when the ropes came out, itcan feel like Tintin is what did it.
Aella (22:28):
And so I think it's, like, very easy for people to, like,
misattribute causality for things.
Like, say you're reallyinterested in feet.
I think it's just very easy for peopleto remember, like, maybe an experience
they had with feet when they were veryyoung that they hyperfixated on and be
like, that must have been the cause of it.
Like, when I was a kid, you know,this other, like, nine year old, like,
rubbed their feet in my face whenwe were wrestling and I was just,
like, This is the first time I wasin close contact with somebody else.
(22:50):
This was formative.
I think this is why I have a foot fetish.
Oh, really?
Maybe it is genetic.
Maybe foot fetishes for some reason arehardwired and you were predisposed to
have that be a really intense experiencebecause You were hardwired to do so.
Um, and so like I'm saying that thatself-reports are just really difficult.
And so when you wanna get into causality,like what makes this thing happen, um,
(23:11):
the best we can do is just correlation.
Uh, it's really . It's just scary to,
to graduate from that to causality.
Ashley (23:16):
I need to stress here that we don't know if it's genetic and
we don't know if it's hardwired.
Again, there isn't a ton of research.
Scientists just know whatpeople have told them.
Christian Joyal (23:27):
A lot of, uh, the stuff that we are interested
in, it began when we were a child.
There's a gradation.
The thing that are fundamentals,they begin usually during childhood.
And after that, you have, like,your secondary, like, Preference
that you discovered when you were incollege, for instance, or young adult.
(23:49):
And the third type of preferenceswhen you discovered with a partner
when you were, say, 30 years old.
But the fundamental part,it begins during childhood.
And a lot of people who like, forinstance, Spanking told us that they
were spanked when they were youngand they had their first reaction.
(24:16):
It was not necessarily sexual,but it was certainly emotional
and they got emotional about that.
And after that, they are stilllooking for that kind of thing.
So yes, it begins during childhood,the fundamental sexual interest,
including sexual fantasies.
Ashley (24:36):
This should be good news to anyone who's felt shame about their kinks.
You're not damaged.
You're not reenactingsome childhood trauma.
You just happen to have asexual interest that's outside
the norm, whatever norm means.
But lots of people have been abusedas children, and some of them do
have kinks that mirror that abuse.
(24:58):
And that's okay.
Aella (25:06):
Even if a fetish is caused by abuse in childhood, this still
doesn't feel shameful to me.
Like, let's say hypothetically we're ina world where getting abused in childhood
makes you want to be abused as an adult.
Like, in the same way, like, when youare abused as a child in general, like,
maybe you're more anxious as an adult.
Like, your brain is like, oh,I got born into a world where
adults just hurt you sometimes.
Like, and then you havea correct response.
(25:27):
You're like, I'm now going to be afraidof people, which is like, it makes sense.
This is a very logical conclusion to have.
Like, you should be afraid of peoplebecause people have hurt you a lot.
And so it's possible that, like,we don't have any evidence for
this theory as far as I know.
I don't know.
But maybe in a world where, like, yoursexual responses are really determined
by early childhood, like, your body'slearning, like, Oh, the kind of sexual
(25:49):
experiences I'm going to have are goingto be pretty non consensual for my life.
So I should better learn to have asexual response to that so I don't
get physically damaged later on.
Like, to me this is like anentirely rational response,
assuming that this is how it works.
And so it's like, yeah, I was abusedas a child, I'm into rape now.
People should be like, good!
Good job, body, protecting you!
Like, it's a wonderful adaption.
Ashley (26:09):
For some people with a history of abuse, it's actually even better.
Kinks like this can be a wayto heal from their trauma.
Christian Joyal (26:16):
For some, it is really great because they, they
tell us that they are reenactinga traumatizing situation, but now
they have control on that situation.
So they can kind of get rid of it,or having control about something
(26:39):
when they were young, of course,they didn't have control on that.
And it's really reassuringand it's really good for them.
Ashley (26:50):
There are a lot of harmful messages out there about kink.
Not only from the media and societyas a whole, but from the scientific
establishments that claim to helpus learn more about ourselves.
And actually, it's funny that paraphilicdisorder, if it causes distress, I mean,
it's kind of a circular thing, right?
Well, if, if your thing is considereda disorder, maybe that will cause you
(27:10):
distress more than it would if it wasn't.
Christian Joyal (27:12):
Wow.
Wow.
Bravo.
What you said is so true.
I mean, it's, it's so circular.
People who are attracted, forinstance, into BDSM stuff, they are
not distressed by their attraction.
Personally, if I would be gay,I would not be distressed.
(27:35):
I'm gay.
I'm gay.
That's it.
So they are not distressed.
They are never distressed, but theycould be distressed because of the DSM.
So you're totally right.
It's a joke.
We are distressing people whoare not distressed and that's it.
But in 25 years.
(27:56):
This is what I say allthe time to my students.
In 25 years or so, we will say we wereso stupid in 2023 that we tried to define
what is normal and abnormal in sexology.
We, it was so stupid, it was like,uh, homosexuality in the DSM II.
In the DSM II, homosexuals,they were considered as, uh,
(28:21):
having a mental disorder.
It would be the same with BDSMin 25 years, it would, uh, it was
in the DSM V, can't believe that.
Yeah.
Ashley (28:33):
Aella, for her part, is out to make sure that nobody is
distressed because of their kink.
Aella (28:38):
There's not very much empathy for people.
I've developed like this thing whereI feel super sensitive to people
making jokes about fetishes now.
I feel sensitive because I'mlike, oh, you're like, oh, well,
like all the feet guys are weird.
And I'm like, there might bea foot guy standing among you.
There might be a foot guy in this crowdright now who's too embarrassed to say it.
I'd love to bring morecompassion and understanding.
(28:58):
Like when I was a teenager, I wasvery horny and I was masturbating
a lot, but I was really religious.
And you weren't supposed to be doing this.
So I would look up, youknow, for Christian, like,
is it ethical to masturbate?
And there'd be a whole bunch of discussionaround, like, lust and controlling
your lust, but it was entirely for men.
They would all be like, Boys, weknow it's hard to not be horny.
Boys, we know it's hard notto look at erotic stuff.
(29:20):
And there was, Absolutely nothing.
It's better now when I look at it,but at the time, nothing for women.
And the complete silence on the topic mademe feel like I was deeply fucked up and,
like, completely alienated by society.
I'm like, wow, I am so unusualthat people, like, won't even
acknowledge my existence.
Like, it's, I'm so rare that thisisn't even worth being talked about.
(29:43):
And I think there's something likethat going on with sex research,
sort of, almost spiritually.
If you have a strange fetishand you want to know more about
yourself, it's dead silence.
Nobody knows anything.
Nobody's bothered to put in the effortor care to learn about people like you.
And that's just, like, sad.
And I want to bring that.
I want to, like, bring the thing wherefinally we can, like, look at who you
(30:06):
are directly, like, without shame,and be like, cool, here's information.
Um, somebody cared aboutyou enough to do this.
Ashley (30:14):
That's what I hope to do with Philias.
We're going to take the kinksthat you might know as weird,
shameful, or the punchline to ajoke and hold them up to the light.
If you identify with these kinks,you'll learn more about yourself.
And if you don't, you'll find outhow much we all have in common.
Everybody's just looking fora little joy in their lives.
(30:41):
Thanks for listening.
My deep appreciation to Aellafor helping me out with this.
She was the first interview I didfor the series and she really helped
me think through the whole thing.
You can take her kink survey yourselfby following the link in the show notes.
And thank you to the brilliantChristian Joyal for sharing
so much information with me.
You'll hear him again in the next episode.
(31:02):
Taboo Science is written andproduced by me, Ashley Hamer.
The theme song is by DaniLopatka of DLC Music.
Episode music is by Epidemic Sound, andI've got an affiliate link for that in the
show notes if you want to try it yourself.
I know this series might bring up alot of questions and stories for you,
and I want you to share them with me.
I've got an easy way to do that.
(31:23):
Head to podline.
fm slash tabooscience and hit record.
There's a 90 second limit and you canidentify yourself or stay anonymous.
And I might play your message on the show.
With that, I hope you tune in next time.
I won't tell anyone.
Christian Joyal (31:45):
Hello cat!
Just a quick content note, this episode deals with some pretty
(00:03):
heavy subjects, including sexualviolence, child abuse, and some
quick mentions of gross stuff.
If that's not for you, noworries, just sit this one out.
When you think about kink,what do you think about?
If your main exposure is throughpopular media, your conception of kink
(00:26):
probably comes in two different flavors.
There's the fun, sexy, sometimessilly kind, the sitcom mom who
wants to spice up her marriage withfuzzy handcuffs and a blindfold.
The comedian who professes herlove of dirty talk and spanking.
That one scene where a young ChrisEvans puts whipped cream on his
nipples and a banana in his butt?
(00:46):
Yeah, look it up.
Then there's the dangerous kind.
The leather clad dominatrix whotraps the straight male protagonist
in her dungeon, where hijinks ensue.
The creepy shoe storeowner with a foot fetish.
The serial killer who likesdressing up in women's clothes.
The way we're taught to view kink iseither as an acceptable addition to a
(01:10):
normal, heterosexual, monogamous privatesex life, or something pathological, done
by deviant people with dark intentions.
Anthropologist Margot Weiss saysthat makes us spectators of kink,
who label and judge from a safe,normal, privileged position instead
of understanding its nuanced reality.
(01:33):
We keep kink at a distance.
And in this miniseries, Iwant to shorten that distance.
I'm going to show you that kinksand fetishes are so much more.
I'm calling this series Philias, after theGreek word and scientific suffix for love.
(01:57):
That suffix most often comes atthe end of the word paraphilia.
which is by definition an abnormaldesire, a deviant kind of love.
But as we'll learn if we haven'talready, science is notoriously
bad at defining what's normal.
Instead, the many kinks and fetishesthat exist out in the world are a
(02:19):
beautiful illustration of how diverseand interesting humans really are.
Today we're taking our first diveinto the deep sea of Philias to
understand that we've all got a weirdlittle something that gets us going.
I'm Ashley Hamer, and this is TabooScience, the podcast that answers the
(02:40):
questions you're not allowed to ask.
(03:02):
First, some definitions.
Kink.
That's an umbrella term that encompassesany sexual interest that falls outside
the mainstream, and a fetish is aheightened attraction to certain objects
or body parts besides the genitals.
By those definitions, a lotof seemingly mainstream sexual
interests could be considered kinks.
(03:24):
Are you a butt man?
Are you into Catholic schoolgirl outfits?
Do you get extra turned onwearing lingerie or leather?
Congratulations!
You're in the kink club.
Your paperwork's in the mail.
Christian Joyal (03:37):
So you can have an interest in something
that is what we call kinky.
For instance, being tied up onyour bed, it's considered kinky.
For me, it's just, you liketo spice up your sex life,
that's it, it's really good.
So this is just a kinky interest.
Ashley (03:56):
That's Dr.
Christian Joyal.
Christian Joyal (03:58):
I am a professor in the psychology department of
University of Quebec, and also I am afull time researcher at the Philippe
Pinel Institute in Montreal, whichis a forensic mental health hospital.
Ashley (04:14):
Dr.
Joyal is kind of a big deal.
More than one guest agreed to come on thispodcast after I mentioned I talked to him.
Anyway, one step above kinky iswhat scientists call a paraphilia.
The definition of paraphilia comesfrom the DSM, the Diagnostic and
Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.
That's the big list of mentaldisorders that's used by not only
(04:36):
mental health professionals, butalso by courts and lawmakers.
So it's pretty important thatit's accurate about what's
normal and what's pathological.
Specifically, the DSM definesparaphilia as any intense and
persistent sexual interest otherthan sexual interest in genital
stimulation or preparatory fondlingwith phenotypically normal, physically
(04:59):
mature, and consenting human partners.
The interest needs to be equal orgreater to the person's interest
in that aforementioned normalsex, which also has a name.
Christian Joyal (05:09):
So this is what they used to call normophilia.
They don't call it normophilia anymore.
But it was a new term, which meansliking something that is normal.
But what is normal exactly?
Ashley (05:25):
And then there's one more step above a paraphilia.
Christian Joyal (05:28):
If, above that, you are distressed or if it interferes with
your everyday life, for instance, you'realways thinking about sex, you're looking
at porn at your job, it's interfering,now you have a paraphilic disorder.
Ashley (05:49):
The problem with these definitions is that they all rely
on a solid definition of normal.
But that definition of normal is basedon common belief, not actual data.
So Dr.
Joyal and his team decidedto do their own research.
Christian Joyal (06:04):
We began to interview people from the general population and
we asked them What they like and whatthey didn't like in their sex life.
Ashley (06:14):
And a whole lot of people liked stuff that the
DSM did not consider normal.
Christian Joyal (06:20):
According to the DSM, a sexual fantasy is sufficient
to be labeled as a paraphilia.
It depends.
It depends.
You can have red flags, likewhere we work at Pinel Institute.
We are working with, uh, paraphilia.
People who have a diagnosis of pedophilia.
We are working with people who arerapists and in, in certain cases, a given
(06:45):
sexual fantasy could be a really bigred flag, but in most cases it is not.
So only to have a sexual fantasy about,let's say being took by force or being
raped, we saw that in two thirds of women.
Ashley (07:06):
Two thirds of women had a rape fantasy.
Two thirds!
Now, this doesn't mean that two thirdsof women actually want to be raped.
It's a fantasy.
Christian Joyal (07:17):
There is a big difference between a sexual fantasy, which is in
your head, which the main purpose ofa sexual fantasy is to get aroused.
So big difference between thisand a sexual wish or desire.
Especially among women.
They wrote to us, like, I certainlydon't want to live it for real.
(07:39):
Of course.
But in my mind, in my head, I getexcited with that idea that my
husband, my boyfriend, whatever,my partner, is taking me by force.
But it's only in your head.
But just because it's in your headdoesn't mean it's not doing anything.
As far as you are excited with thatidea, well, the sexual fantasy is just
(08:04):
working fine, and it's perfect, andthe more you have sexual fantasies,
we've realized, the more you aresexually satisfied with your sex life.
So this is really good.
Ashley (08:19):
So what's the deal?
The DSM has said for decades that thingslike rape fantasies are abnormal, yet Dr.
Joyal can go out, survey a portion of thepopulation, and find out they're wrong.
And not only are they wrong, andthese aren't a harmful form of
deviance, but these fantasies areactually improving people's sex lives.
Even the straight, monogamous, married,private sex lives society approves of.
(08:43):
There must be tons of research likehis saying the same thing, right?
Where's the disconnect?
Well, until recently, therewas almost no funding to do
the kind of research that Dr.
Joyal does.
Christian Joyal (08:55):
Ten years ago, it was totally impossible to do that
kind of research because we couldnot never ever have any grants.
Money to do the research onany sexual things except AIDS
and stuff like that and rapes.
Sexual diversity, nobody cares about that.
(09:17):
But really nobody.
So we began to do it onour own on the weekends.
We don't have holidays.
Because we are freak and geek.
Working for free to do that kind of thing.
Because we are curious.
Ashley (09:35):
But then something shifted.
Christian Joyal (09:38):
After the MeToo movement, everything changed.
Everything changed.
We got a lot of grand opportunitiesto work on sexuality in general.
Ashley (09:49):
So until recently, research into sexual diversity was almost non existent.
Most of the people doing it weredoing it for free on weekends.
Because they were curious about it.
Which brings me to Aellla.
Aella (10:06):
Hey, I am Aella.
I am a sex worker and more dominantlylately a sex researcher where I
study fetishes on the internet a lot.
Ashley (10:15):
Aella is a kind of internet celebrity.
She has 200, 000 followers on X, her owndiscord with more than 6, 000 members,
and a popular blog called Knowing Lesswhere she recently posted about her
birthday gangbang, complete with a Sankeydiagram of how she sourced the attendees.
(10:36):
Also, I just learned she wason the Lex Friedman podcast?
Scooped again by one of thetop podcasts in the world.
Okay.
Anyway, the reason I wanted to talkto her, besides all that, was that
she has authored what is probablythe largest survey on kinks and
fetishes ever performed, with over700, 000 respondents as of October
(10:58):
2023, and probably way more now.
And she did it out of sheer curiosity.
I have a couple
Aella (11:05):
really fucked up kinks and I was like, I want to
know how fucked up they are.
Um, but when you want to know howfucked up they are, you have to
measure all the other kinks to compare.
And then, then I started measuring otherkinks and then this started a whole thing.
Are
Ashley (11:17):
you comfortable sharing what fucked up kinks you personally have?
Or we can leave that out too.
I would love to
Aella (11:22):
because I want to bring less shame to the world.
However, I, my brain is not capableof letting me talk about them.
Even when I have a partner, Ihave a partner who I trust deeply.
I'm in love with and they'relike, Oh, just like, let me know.
And then I just can't likeforce it out of my throat.
Ashley (11:36):
Aella doesn't have a college degree.
She's had to learn statistics on the fly.
And when the number of responsesto her survey became too huge for
Google sheets, She learned Python.
She is an autodidact, whichreally sounds like it should
be a term for a sexual kink.
Even so, she believes that herresearch is of a higher quality
(11:56):
than a lot of what's out there.
Aella (11:58):
Recently I'd finally started wading through the literature and I
was like, holy shit, the things thatI'm doing are actually much better than
what currently exists in the literature.
There's just not much.
And the stuff that does exist is,um, it's like not necessarily the
academic's fault because it's verydifficult to get good distributed
samples on something like this.
People don't want to talkabout their research.
Um, and if you're selecting forthe people that do, in most cases,
(12:21):
this is a confounding effect.
I may not be perfect, but rightnow, I like might be one of the
best that people that we've got,which I would love to change.
I would love for other peopleto come and do better than I am.
It's just nobody else is doing that.
So fuck it.
Ashley (12:33):
Right.
So tell me, tell me about what it isthat you're doing that's better than
what is in the research currently.
Aella (12:38):
I think the biggest difference is that I don't come
from an academic background.
I come from a background of marketing.
In my mind, it's like, if you wanta large sample, you want people to
take your survey, and getting peopleto do things on the internet is like
what I've been doing for 10 years,because, like, sex worker, right?
And I think that this attitude of,like, how do I market, like, how
do I treat surveys as a product,basically, is not something that
(13:02):
the academics think about at all.
You have professors, uh, payinggrad students and, you know,
grades or whatever, or undergrads.
Or like, um, you go to a forum dedicatedto talking about BDSM and then you ask the
people on that forum to take your survey.
Ashley (13:16):
So how does Aella get people to take her survey?
Well, she took a page fromthe BuzzFeed playbook.
When you finish the survey, it tellsyou your kink score and which popular
character that's equivalent to.
Bambi and Goku are theleast kinky on the scale.
Willy Wonka and the genie fromAladdin are stone cold freaks.
So why'd she use these characters?
Aella (13:39):
So people would share it with their friends.
The survey is like really thorough,like the, the results that you get.
This actually did put quite a lot ofwork into making it a meaningful result.
Like huge amount, likea month worth of work.
But like when you get the actualresult that you want it to be something
that like gives you a hit of pleasurein some way, um, and also makes you
want to share it with other people.
And like characters are a perfect wayto do it because it gives you some
(14:00):
information but it's still interpretable.
But you can share it with yourfriends without them knowing
about your sexuality directly.
Uh, you're sort of an artisticrepresentation of your sex life.
Ashley (14:09):
So, survey respondents got a popular character to share with their
friends, and in return, Aella got amassive trove of data that she could
use to determine all sorts of things.
To answer her original question,she put a bunch of kinks and
fetishes on a graph based on howpopular and how taboo they were.
So I'm sure you want to knowthe most popular fetish in
the entire survey, right?
(14:31):
I'll tell you after the break.
So before we get into the most popularfetish in Aella's survey, there's
one thing you have to understand.
Despite the dictionary definitions,what makes something a kink or
(14:51):
a fetish is pretty subjective.
Aella (14:54):
People sort of treat fetishes like either a sexual
interest is a fetish or it's not.
I think things are muchmore on a spectrum.
Like, what determinessomething being fetishy?
Is it like how common it is?
Is it how like weird and fucked up it is?
Ultimately, I call everything asexual interest, and the more taboo
and rare you go, the more likely itis that we view this as a fetish.
So, it depends on your cutoff, but likeI mean, I would consider like straight
(15:16):
missionary sex to be a sexual interest.
Ashley (15:19):
So understanding that, the most popular sexual interest in
the entire survey was making out.
It was also the least taboo.
The least popular, most taboointerest was pedophilia.
Just edging out necrophilia.
Foot fetishes get a 1 on the 1 to 5taboo scale, while blood is more of a 3.
(15:43):
5.
Lots of people like light bondage,not that many people like farts.
Aella also did factoranalysis on the data.
That's a statistical method thattakes a huge number of variables,
like this cavalcade of kinks, andreduces them into smaller groups.
This is the way they do theBig Five personality survey,
if you've ever heard of that.
(16:04):
That's the one thatmeasures you on five traits.
Openness, conscientiousness, extroversion,agreeableness, and neuroticism.
Have you ever wondered how theylanded on those five traits?
Factor analysis, baby!
Aella (16:17):
The Big Five personality survey they generated by basically asking
people a whole bunch of personalityquestions, everybody answered, and then
they noticed like, oh, this clusterof questions tends to be similar
and opposite to this other cluster.
So you can kind of like find likelinear patterns in the dataset,
basically, like natural ones.
The people who tend to answer,oh, I like being alone at parties,
uh, are opposite to the peoplesaying I like a lot of attention.
(16:39):
So it's like natural trends that emerge.
So you can do this to the fetish datasetto see the natural trends that emerge.
Ashley (16:44):
So, through factor analysis, Aella broke the data down into ten clusters.
Ten groups of kinks and fetishesthat tend to be associated with each
other, in the same way that likingparties and chatting up cashiers
are both associated with extroverts.
She didn't give them labels, but I'mgoing to do my best to name them.
So some of these mightcause a reaction in you.
(17:06):
Like, not the good kind.
And I just want toremind you about what Dr.
Joyal said.
Just because someone has afantasy doesn't mean they're
looking to do it in real life.
Okay, here we go.
The Ten Kinds of Kinks!
(17:31):
Factor 1 is power dynamics.
Things like bondage, spanking,humiliation, and rape play.
Factor 2 I'm calling swinging.
That's stuff like voyeurism andexhibitionism, anonymous sex,
multiple partners, and cuckoldry.
That's where one partner in a couple hassex with someone else because it gives
the other partner sexual gratification.
(17:53):
Stay tuned for a full episode on that one.
Factor 3 I'm going to say,is the vanilla factor.
Makeouts, romance, tickling, andsensuality are all grouped here.
Factor 4 is for the monster fuckers.
This includes monsters, tails and horns,bestiality, animal transformation, and
oviposition, which is where you get off onthe idea of having eggs laid inside you.
(18:18):
Furries are also here, and furriesalso get their own episode.
Factors 5 and 7 are for extreme femininityand extreme masculinity, respectively.
Breast implants, high heels.
Pigtails and skirts on oneside, being gay, submission,
and receiving pain on the other.
Between 5 and 7 is gender play.
(18:39):
Things like pegging, which is usinga strap on dildo in a butt, usually
a male butt, and sissification,where a submissive man is forced to
take on a traditional female role.
Things that blur the genderbinary for fun and profit.
Factor 8 is horror.
Creepy kinks like blood, zombies,necrophilia, and brutality are
(18:59):
grouped together in this one.
Factor 9 I'm calling disgust.
Scat and urine, diapers, armpits,farts, and feet are here.
And finally, Factor 10 is incest andage play, where people take on the
persona of a different age group.
Remember, fantasies are not reality.
(19:22):
So what is it that makessomeone aroused by this stuff?
I mean, humans evolved to avoid pain,gross and scary things, humiliation, and
a lot of the other items on this list.
In order to procreate, we evolved tobe attracted to an adult member of
the opposite sex of our own species.
All of this was literally essentialto our survival as a species.
(19:44):
Why do some people get off on thestuff that we'd usually avoid?
Christian Joyal (19:48):
People, for instance, who are, they know that they are
totally homosexual, for instance.
But they knew it whenthey were 8 years old.
And when they were 18 yearsold, and 40 years old.
I mean, if you are really gay,you knew it for a long time.
A long time.
(20:08):
It's the same with exclusive pedophilia.
When we interview people with pedophilia,the, at eight years old, nine, 10
years old, they were attracted towardpeople their age, but as they grew
up, they were still attracted towardpeople like eight, nine, 10 years old.
(20:29):
So this it's, it's really clear.
So those are people whohave exclusive pedophilia.
Yeah.
And there are therapies, uh, notconversion therapies, but therapies
to make them aware that this is notonly it's incorrect, but maybe you
should not have a sex life after all.
(20:51):
That being said, it's the same forpeople who are really into BDSM.
They told us, when I was sixyears old, seven years old.
It was not sexual at all, of course, butthey were so into bondage, for instance.
And they, they were hooked on, youknow, little books like Tintin.
(21:16):
Tintin, Tintin, in French it's
Ashley (21:20):
Tintin.
Christian Joyal (21:20):
Tintin, okay, in French it's Tintin.
Ashley (21:23):
This might be before your time, it's definitely before mine, but when
I googled Tintin I recognized him.
He's the little cartoon redhead man withthe flipped up hair and a white dog.
Anyway, he's a fictional reporter whogoes on all sorts of adventures and
frequently finds himself captured.
Christian Joyal (21:39):
He's always in every book.
He's bonded.
So he's restrained.
And a lot of our respondentstold us that they were excited.
It was not yet sexually, but theythought it was so interesting.
And me personally, Ididn't even notice that.
(22:01):
Tintin was bonded in Africa, forinstance, but they told us, yes, yes, yes.
Ashley (22:08):
It's important to point out that Tintin didn't necessarily make
these people interested in BDSM.
The interest most likely started inchildhood, and happened to find an
outlet in these Belgian comic books.
But if you're that adult rememberingyour days reading Tintin and getting
excited when the ropes came out, itcan feel like Tintin is what did it.
Aella (22:28):
And so I think it's, like, very easy for people to, like,
misattribute causality for things.
Like, say you're reallyinterested in feet.
I think it's just very easy for peopleto remember, like, maybe an experience
they had with feet when they were veryyoung that they hyperfixated on and be
like, that must have been the cause of it.
Like, when I was a kid, you know,this other, like, nine year old, like,
rubbed their feet in my face whenwe were wrestling and I was just,
like, This is the first time I wasin close contact with somebody else.
(22:50):
This was formative.
I think this is why I have a foot fetish.
Oh, really?
Maybe it is genetic.
Maybe foot fetishes for some reason arehardwired and you were predisposed to
have that be a really intense experiencebecause You were hardwired to do so.
Um, and so like I'm saying that thatself-reports are just really difficult.
And so when you wanna get into causality,like what makes this thing happen, um,
(23:11):
the best we can do is just correlation.
Uh, it's really . It's just scary to,
to graduate from that to causality.
Ashley (23:16):
I need to stress here that we don't know if it's genetic and
we don't know if it's hardwired.
Again, there isn't a ton of research.
Scientists just know whatpeople have told them.
Christian Joyal (23:27):
A lot of, uh, the stuff that we are interested
in, it began when we were a child.
There's a gradation.
The thing that are fundamentals,they begin usually during childhood.
And after that, you have, like,your secondary, like, Preference
that you discovered when you were incollege, for instance, or young adult.
(23:49):
And the third type of preferenceswhen you discovered with a partner
when you were, say, 30 years old.
But the fundamental part,it begins during childhood.
And a lot of people who like, forinstance, Spanking told us that they
were spanked when they were youngand they had their first reaction.
(24:16):
It was not necessarily sexual,but it was certainly emotional
and they got emotional about that.
And after that, they are stilllooking for that kind of thing.
So yes, it begins during childhood,the fundamental sexual interest,
including sexual fantasies.
Ashley (24:36):
This should be good news to anyone who's felt shame about their kinks.
You're not damaged.
You're not reenactingsome childhood trauma.
You just happen to have asexual interest that's outside
the norm, whatever norm means.
But lots of people have been abusedas children, and some of them do
have kinks that mirror that abuse.
(24:58):
And that's okay.
Aella (25:06):
Even if a fetish is caused by abuse in childhood, this still
doesn't feel shameful to me.
Like, let's say hypothetically we're ina world where getting abused in childhood
makes you want to be abused as an adult.
Like, in the same way, like, when youare abused as a child in general, like,
maybe you're more anxious as an adult.
Like, your brain is like, oh,I got born into a world where
adults just hurt you sometimes.
Like, and then you havea correct response.
(25:27):
You're like, I'm now going to be afraidof people, which is like, it makes sense.
This is a very logical conclusion to have.
Like, you should be afraid of peoplebecause people have hurt you a lot.
And so it's possible that, like,we don't have any evidence for
this theory as far as I know.
I don't know.
But maybe in a world where, like, yoursexual responses are really determined
by early childhood, like, your body'slearning, like, Oh, the kind of sexual
(25:49):
experiences I'm going to have are goingto be pretty non consensual for my life.
So I should better learn to have asexual response to that so I don't
get physically damaged later on.
Like, to me this is like anentirely rational response,
assuming that this is how it works.
And so it's like, yeah, I was abusedas a child, I'm into rape now.
People should be like, good!
Good job, body, protecting you!
Like, it's a wonderful adaption.
Ashley (26:09):
For some people with a history of abuse, it's actually even better.
Kinks like this can be a wayto heal from their trauma.
Christian Joyal (26:16):
For some, it is really great because they, they
tell us that they are reenactinga traumatizing situation, but now
they have control on that situation.
So they can kind of get rid of it,or having control about something
(26:39):
when they were young, of course,they didn't have control on that.
And it's really reassuringand it's really good for them.
Ashley (26:50):
There are a lot of harmful messages out there about kink.
Not only from the media and societyas a whole, but from the scientific
establishments that claim to helpus learn more about ourselves.
And actually, it's funny that paraphilicdisorder, if it causes distress, I mean,
it's kind of a circular thing, right?
Well, if, if your thing is considereda disorder, maybe that will cause you
(27:10):
distress more than it would if it wasn't.
Christian Joyal (27:12):
Wow.
Wow.
Bravo.
What you said is so true.
I mean, it's, it's so circular.
People who are attracted, forinstance, into BDSM stuff, they are
not distressed by their attraction.
Personally, if I would be gay,I would not be distressed.
(27:35):
I'm gay.
I'm gay.
That's it.
So they are not distressed.
They are never distressed, but theycould be distressed because of the DSM.
So you're totally right.
It's a joke.
We are distressing people whoare not distressed and that's it.
But in 25 years.
(27:56):
This is what I say allthe time to my students.
In 25 years or so, we will say we wereso stupid in 2023 that we tried to define
what is normal and abnormal in sexology.
We, it was so stupid, it was like,uh, homosexuality in the DSM II.
In the DSM II, homosexuals,they were considered as, uh,
(28:21):
having a mental disorder.
It would be the same with BDSMin 25 years, it would, uh, it was
in the DSM V, can't believe that.
Yeah.
Ashley (28:33):
Aella, for her part, is out to make sure that nobody is
distressed because of their kink.
Aella (28:38):
There's not very much empathy for people.
I've developed like this thing whereI feel super sensitive to people
making jokes about fetishes now.
I feel sensitive because I'mlike, oh, you're like, oh, well,
like all the feet guys are weird.
And I'm like, there might bea foot guy standing among you.
There might be a foot guy in this crowdright now who's too embarrassed to say it.
I'd love to bring morecompassion and understanding.
(28:58):
Like when I was a teenager, I wasvery horny and I was masturbating
a lot, but I was really religious.
And you weren't supposed to be doing this.
So I would look up, youknow, for Christian, like,
is it ethical to masturbate?
And there'd be a whole bunch of discussionaround, like, lust and controlling
your lust, but it was entirely for men.
They would all be like, Boys, weknow it's hard to not be horny.
Boys, we know it's hard notto look at erotic stuff.
(29:20):
And there was, Absolutely nothing.
It's better now when I look at it,but at the time, nothing for women.
And the complete silence on the topic mademe feel like I was deeply fucked up and,
like, completely alienated by society.
I'm like, wow, I am so unusualthat people, like, won't even
acknowledge my existence.
Like, it's, I'm so rare that thisisn't even worth being talked about.
(29:43):
And I think there's something likethat going on with sex research,
sort of, almost spiritually.
If you have a strange fetishand you want to know more about
yourself, it's dead silence.
Nobody knows anything.
Nobody's bothered to put in the effortor care to learn about people like you.
And that's just, like, sad.
And I want to bring that.
I want to, like, bring the thing wherefinally we can, like, look at who you
(30:06):
are directly, like, without shame,and be like, cool, here's information.
Um, somebody cared aboutyou enough to do this.
Ashley (30:14):
That's what I hope to do with Philias.
We're going to take the kinksthat you might know as weird,
shameful, or the punchline to ajoke and hold them up to the light.
If you identify with these kinks,you'll learn more about yourself.
And if you don't, you'll find outhow much we all have in common.
Everybody's just looking fora little joy in their lives.
(30:41):
Thanks for listening.
My deep appreciation to Aellafor helping me out with this.
She was the first interview I didfor the series and she really helped
me think through the whole thing.
You can take her kink survey yourselfby following the link in the show notes.
And thank you to the brilliantChristian Joyal for sharing
so much information with me.
You'll hear him again in the next episode.
(31:02):
Taboo Science is written andproduced by me, Ashley Hamer.
The theme song is by DaniLopatka of DLC Music.
Episode music is by Epidemic Sound, andI've got an affiliate link for that in the
show notes if you want to try it yourself.
I know this series might bring up alot of questions and stories for you,
and I want you to share them with me.
I've got an easy way to do that.
(31:23):
Head to podline.
fm slash tabooscience and hit record.
There's a 90 second limit and you canidentify yourself or stay anonymous.
And I might play your message on the show.
With that, I hope you tune in next time.
I won't tell anyone.
Christian Joyal (31:45):
Hello cat!
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