Philias: Why Do People Like BDSM? ("It Was Like Taking Drugs")

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ashley (00:09):
Christian Grey really did a number on the popular understanding of BDSM.
Fifty Shades of Grey, of course, isa wildly popular book series that got
turned into a wildly popular movie.
The basic plot, and sorry, therewill be spoilers here, but the basic
plot involves the innocent, virginalAnastasia Steele being pursued by the

(00:33):
billionaire Christian Grey, who revealsthe only way he can maintain romantic
relationships is through acts of sadism.
He shows her his dungeon, which is fullof whips and floggers and suspension
contraptions, and presents her with amulti page contract saying what he can
and can't do to her as his submissive.

(00:55):
Throughout the movie, it's hardto tell whether she's into this.
She seems to have fun negotiatingthe terms of the contract with
him, but she also seems to bereally bummed that this is the only
way he's willing to be with her.
But the point is, it doesn'tmatter to Christian Grey.
He's acting out his trauma.
You see, at 16, he becamean older woman's submissive.

(01:17):
And now he's doomed torepeat this abusive history.
The movie ends not with Christiangoing to therapy or learning a
healthier approach to BDSM or anyreal character development at all.
No, it ends with Anastasia Steele callingChristian a monster and leaving him.

(01:38):
For many people, this was theirfirst introduction to BDSM.
And everything they learnedwas terribly, terribly wrong.
BDSM isn't abuse.
It's not the result of childhood trauma.
And it's certainly not about adominant doing what they want, and a
submissive getting no say in the matter.

(01:59):
When it's done right, BDSM isa safe, consensual act between
enthusiastic participants.
It can be fun, Even euphoric.
Today, we're learning the ropesof BDSM to understand its history,
uncover its appeal, debunk itsmisconceptions, and delve into the

(02:20):
incredible effects it has on the brain.
I'm Ashley Hamer and this is TabooScience, the podcast that answers the
questions you're not allowed to ask.

(02:51):
The most embarrassing part ofinterviewing kinksters about kink,
for me, was not asking about theirsex lives or anything like that.
It was asking each person what theythought about Fifty Shades of Grey.
I mean, it makes me looklike a goddamn amateur.
Of course they hated it.
But I wanted to hear it from them.

Lina Dune (03:10):
I think the most offensive part about Fifty Shades is not the
actual way that it employs BDSM, whichis, of course, is extremely wrong and

Ashley (03:19):
bad.
That's Lina Dune.
She's a kink writer, host of the Ask a Subpodcast, and a 24 7 collared submissive.

Lina Dune (03:28):
But for me, the most offensive part about Fifty Shades
is the bad writing, because BDSMreally hinges on a shared goal.
creative reality betweenall the participants.
A part of BDSM is being able tobe empathetic and flexible and
listen well enough to createsomething that both of you can buy

(03:51):
into.

Kayla Lords (03:53):
So here's my charitable answer, and I do mean this.

Ashley (03:56):
That's Kayla Lords, one half of the Loving BDSM podcast and submissive
to John Brownstone, the other half ofthe Loving BDSM podcast, who you'll
hear responding in the background.

Fifty Shades opened the door for people who read it or watch the movies
to go, wait, something about this appeals.
I want to go learn more.
And we've met a lot of people whowent to their first munch, who
talked to their partner about kink,whatever, because of Fifty Shades.

(04:28):
And for that, that's commendable.
As a piece of content, Ifind it personally awful.

John Brownstone (04:39):
Yeah, I mean, it was okay ish erotica, but as a guidebook
for, you know, living the lifestyle?
No.

Ashley (04:49):
You're going to hear a ton more from Lina and Kayla
and John later in the episode.
But first, we've got tolay down some basics.
Like, I honestly thought Iknew what BDSM stood for before
researching for this podcast.
See, BDSM is four letters.
But it actually refers to six terms.
BD is for bondage and discipline.

(05:11):
Tying up, putting in handcuffs, spankingand flogging, that kind of thing.
DS is for dominance and submission.
A dynamic that puts one personin power over the other.
SM is for sadomasochism.
Sadism is when someone enjoysinflicting pain, and masochism is
when someone enjoys receiving it.

(05:33):
So really, it shouldn't beBDSM, it should be B D D S S M.
Yeah, BDSM community, shoot me an email.
I have way more brandingtips where that comes from.
BDSM was only coined as a term inthe early 90s, on the internet.
Thanks, internet.
But people have been takingpleasure in pain for as long

(05:55):
as we have written records.
And I mean that literally.
Around 2250 BC, the world's firstauthor, a Mesopotamian priestess,
wrote hymns to a dominatrix goddess.
A little while later in ancient Egypt,Sparta, and Rome, pain and pleasure were
parts of religious rites and festivals.
People would be whipped and beaten tocome of age, or boost their fertility,

(06:18):
or just to celebrate a god or two.
And don't forget about the KamaSutra, which fully explains how
and where to bite, scratch, andstrike a lover for maximum pleasure.
But the history of BDSM reallygets going around the 1600s.
This is when Japanese ropebondage becomes a thing.
And across the world in England,the first professional dominatrixes

(06:41):
were setting up shop to servicewealthy and even royal clientele.
A century later, the Marquis deSade publishes a fantasy novel
full of graphic sexual violence.
And a century after that, a man namedLeopold von Sacher Massach wrote an
erotic book about a man who becomesa beautiful woman's sex slave.

(07:02):
She beats him.
He likes it.
Psychiatrist Richard von Kraft Erbing,who you might remember from the
heterosexuality episode as the inventorof the word heterosexuality, well,
he also invents the words sadism andmasochism, inspired by the Marquis de
Sade and von Sacher Masoch, respectively.

(07:24):
Our ancestors were beating eachother and getting a thrill from it
long before it became a hot topic.
So the fact that today, one in fiveadults say they've engaged in BDSM at
some point should come as no surprise.
And these people arenothing like Christian Grey.
They're not damaged, as much asthe DSM would like to say they are.

Christian Joyal (07:45):
In the DSM, they define stuff like bondage, suffering,
humiliation, masochism, and uh, youknow, consenting sadism as paraphilia.

Ashley (08:00):
That's Christian Joyal.
You'll remember him from the last episode.
He's a psychology professor at theUniversity of Quebec and a researcher
at the Philip Pennell Institute,a forensic mental health hospital.
And paraphilia is the wordfor an abnormal sexual desire.
It basically shows there'ssomething wrong with you.

And we were wondering why, I mean, based on what, based on what?
And after other studies that weconducted and others did the same
thing, we just realized that peoplewith those so called paraphernalia,
especially in the BDSM area, they were.

(08:40):
They were not only moresophisticated, but they received
more years of formal educationscompared to the general population.
So we were, we just raisedour hand asking, why should
these be signs of madness?

Ashley (09:00):
In the last episode, we talked about how little research
there is on sexual diversity.
But, lucky for us, BDSM is aboutthe best researched kink there is.
We have studies that show that BDSMpractitioners are no more likely
to have been abused as childrenthan the general population.
They're no more likely to have PTSD, orguilt about sex, or misogynistic beliefs.

(09:23):
In fact, most are feminists.
They do tend to have a higher sexdrive than other people, but like,
oh no, how terrible for them.
But the question remains.
Why does BDSM appeal to some people?
What makes them want todo it in the first place?
Here's Kayla.

I'd always known that what I would now consider, and air quote this,
typical non kinky vanilla sex was fine.
I'd never been Satisfied that way.
When things would get a littlerougher, maybe a ass would get
smacked, hair would get pulled.

(10:01):
I always had a better time.
I didn't think too much of itbecause I didn't get a lot of that.
My first marriage, we were equallyas inexperienced and fumbling
around and sexually repressed.
And so it was very dissatisfying.
So by the time I was exploringthat stuff and reading about it and
watching things, I could make theconnection that Oh yeah, those times

(10:25):
it was rough, you kind of liked it.
For me as a masochist, Idon't like every kind of pain.
I don't like every kind of sensation.
I don't like every kind of act thatcreates pain, but the pain I do enjoy
both sort of keeps me on my toes.
I don't know what to expect.
It's a huge feeling ofpowerlessness that I enjoy.

(10:50):
And then there are justsome sensations that.
Feel good and turn me on and make mewant to have more sex, do more kinky
things, do all kinds of filthy things,air quote filthy, it's not really filthy,
uh, to my partner because I feel good.
And so I now want to makehim feel good and I want more

(11:13):
things that make me feel good.
But that part was sort of a journey.
Took, took a minute to getthere, to understand it.

Ashley (11:20):
Lina Dune feels the same way.

Lina Dune (11:22):
I think it just came to me via craving aversive sensation.
Like pain, like spanking, like youknow, a firm hand on the throat.
Not necessarily choking or constrictionof air, but like these sort of.
Things that people thinkof when they think of kink.
They were things thatjust called out to me.
It's not like anythingparticularly happened.

(11:45):
The call was coming from insidethe house and it was like, we need
to start doing this stuff or else.
And I don't really know what theor else was, but I started doing
it and it's led me to a veryhappy sexual life after all that.

Ashley (11:57):
In the last episode, Christian Joyal told us about how many of his
BDSM study participants could pointto times in their childhood when
they remember something like this.
Cartoon bondage, for instance,being really appealing.
But not everyone has that starting place.
Kayla and Lina just know withinthemselves that they're masochists.
And it's the same with John and Sadism.

(12:19):
His first experience with BDSM wasin his first real relationship,
and he just knew that he wantedto tie her up and spank her.
And it just came to you.
I'm so interested to know what itis that appeals to you about that?

I, I enjoyed it.
Well, you know, in the beginning,when, when I first was in that
relationship, like I said, I liked it.
It felt very natural after therelationship ended because at that time
I didn't know there was a name for it.

(12:58):
I didn't know other people engaged in it.
I felt a lot of shame over it andI even had wondered if that was the
reason why the relationship didn't last.
So fast forward to um, 90s whenI discovered the community,
I attended my first munch.

Ashley (13:18):
Quick terminology note, a munch is a casual social gathering
for people into a particularfetish or alternative lifestyle.
Think Denny's, not Dungeon.

And that was such an eye opening, revealing thing for me.
To know that there were other peopleout there that enjoyed the things
that I've had in my head and thatit was okay, it just opened up the

(13:48):
world for me and it, it, it was.

Ashley (13:50):
Do you feel shame anymore?

No.

Ashley (13:56):
That's wonderful.

No.
Um, you know, originally thepower exchange aspect of the
lifestyle came very naturally.
What I had difficult wasreconciling the sadist aspect.
of me.
And what finally did away with that,I was at a munch and I was having a

(14:18):
conversation with a submissive there andwe got into this conversation and we're
explaining about my shame and apparentlyit's something that's fairly common.
And she told me that when a sadistspanks them, flogs, you know, gives them
pain, it's an act of giving, an act oflove, because it's giving them something

(14:40):
that they desire, that they need.
To the masochist.
To the masochist, yeah.
And from having that conversation, it, it,it kind of helped alleviate that shame.

Ashley (14:58):
When we come back, we're tackling the submissive powerful
man stereotype and diving headfirstinto the science of subspace.
Stay tuned.
All of the examples so far areof female subs and male doms, but
subs and Doms can be of any gender.

(15:20):
There are also switches, who can togglebetween dominant and submissive depending
on the scene and the partner, and awhole rainbow of other ways to identify.
Anyway, there is a trope outthere about powerful men wanting
to be dominated in the bedroom.
Maybe as a pressure releasefrom their high stakes jobs.
Turns out, there is some truth to that.
In that it's true of some powerfulmen, but certainly not all.

One, especially in Australia and Melbourne, we are
texting each other and we've beendoing it for like three years and she
told me, you know, almost all of myclients, not only they are submissive,
but they are really powerful person.
We call it an equalizer.

(16:11):
When you need as a human to giveup all the responsibilities that
you have and you need to relax andto give the power to someone else.

Ashley (16:25):
Some people might relax through meditation, yoga,
playing music, or doing art.
But like I mentioned, peoplewho are into BDSM tend to have a
higher sex drive than other people.
And when a relaxation method is relatedto sex, it's a lot more appealing than
pulling out the old acoustic guitar.
I should mention that BDSM doesn'talways involve sex, but it's

(16:46):
definitely got that erotic vibe,even when no sex is happening.
But, when powerful men meet with aprofessional dominatrix, or pro dom, it's
often nothing like what you see on TV.

Lina Dune (16:58):
When I talk to pro Dommes about how they work with male subs,
there's a lot of work on things likemisogyny and interrogating their role
in society, and, you know, when somebodywith a lot of means and resources comes
into contact with someone who's a sexworker The least resources and, you know,
what they do is so precarious that powerexchange can be a real place of learning.

(17:21):
There are people who have used thatposition in, like, specifically to
work on anti racism or anti misogyny,deconstructing, um, a dominatrix who
since passed away, very sadly, MistressVelvet in Chicago really publicly
pioneered this process of taking whiteaffluent male clients and teaching them

(17:42):
how to disassemble their privilege.
So, like, When we see it on TV, we'relike, yeah, hit him, you know, but in
reality, these kinds of relationshipsare really interesting intersection
of disparate levels of privilegeand can be leveraged for really
interesting ends that I haven't seenon TV yet and would love to see.

Ashley (18:00):
It's worth mentioning that not all subs are powerful in their daily lives.
And relatedly, not all Doms arepowerless in their daily lives.
Everyone has their own reasonsfor what they like sexually.
And it's really hard to putkinksters in a box like that.
However, One thing does tend to be true.
If your life is set up so thatthe kink in question could be an

(18:21):
actual risk in the real world,it's not going to be sexy to you.
For example, you don't see alot of racial diversity in BDSM.
It's largely white, andthere's a good reason for that.

Some of our respondents who were Black told us that, well,
you know, my grand grandmother I wasa slave in South Carolina, so no, it's
not a turn on for me to play the slave.
That makes sense to me.

Ashley (18:51):
And on the flip side, if you're a woman from a country with
high levels of gender equality, you'llbe more likely to be submissive.
Because it's safe.
You're not stuck being submissivebecause of strict gender roles,
so taking on a submissive roleby choice is more appealing.

And the southern you go, like in Caribbean countries,
in South America, in Africa ofcourse, the less you have that
kind of, um, submissive fantasies.
I always remember one phrasethat a guy told me in prison.
He said, when you are a prisoner, youdon't fantasizing about being a prisoner.

(19:31):
So I think it's the same.
If you have power in your everyday life,As a woman or a man, whatever, you can let
yourself fantasizing about giving power.
But if you are living in Iran, Iraq,Middle East, and you don't, as a
woman, have any power Well, I guessyou're not fantasizing about that.

Ashley (19:58):
Clearly, there's a lot at play behind why people like BDSM.
Identity, culture, life experience,maybe just how you were born.
But there's also brain chemistryinvolved in BDSM's appeal.
When one person is inflicting pain onanother person who wants it, it sets off

(20:22):
hormonal fireworks inside of both of them.

We published two years ago a paper about submissive people,
but especially people who were intomasochisms, and we asked them, why?
Why?
Why do you like it?
Because personally, I don't understand.
You know, in Arabia, for instance, if youstole something, you can be whipped, and

(20:49):
we all think it's really horrible, butyou, in your bedroom, you do it for fun.
I don't get it.
And they all said the same thing.
They are reaching another level ofconsciousness, and Most of them told

(21:11):
us it was like taking drugs and theywere into what they call the subspace.

Yes, subspace.

Lina Dune (21:21):
Subspace.
As a sub, you can kind of go to thisaltered brain space that can feel a little
bit like you're high, um, on something.

There were some times where I just felt high.
It was floaty, you know,no thoughts, all vibes.
What worries?
What to do list?
It's gone.
The brain is quiet.
And I just would just float on a littlesea of serotonin or whatever it is.

Lina Dune (21:57):
I think a lot of people experience subspace as this sort of
euphoric, floaty, quiet space that theygo to, whereas other people become, you
know, like mischievous and want to wrestleand other people will get the giggles.
Other people will cry, havecathartic crying that comes out.

Other times it would be both mental and physical.
I physically could not move my body.
I could not speak.
I could not respond.
It wasn't a negative experienceor a scary experience.
But I felt like I didn't havecontrol over my own body, and so
I just needed to lay very still.

Lina Dune (22:32):
And then when it's happening, your brain and
whole body are just like, whoa!
Like, so the fireworks go off, and yeah,there can be this really transcendent
feeling that can be kind of hard toexplain, particularly because everyone
experiences a little bit differently.

What we saw is that if you are going slowly, And they all
told us, you cannot spank me right away.
No, no, no.
You can't.
You have to prepare meand I have to trust you.
And after like one hour and a half,it's like you don't feel painful stimuli

(23:07):
as you would like 90 minutes earlier.
When you have more and more and more pain.
Painful stimuli, or when you arebonded or you don't see anything,
you can travel into your inner space.
So maybe that's why some peoplein other countries, other

(23:30):
eras, were walking on fire.
They were walking on brokenglasses and they were sleeping
on, you know, nail beds.
And I just connected that with all thereligions thing, you know, the people
were auto flagellating themselves in the18th century and they are still doing

(23:54):
it, for instance, in Spain, and theyare walking to streets and flag, flag,
flag, but they are going into trance.
They are going into trance.
It's a trance.
It's you're, you're elsewhere.
And this, a lot of them told me thatthey had an out of body experience
so they can see themselves,but they don't feel anything.

(24:16):
They are flawed.
Boom, boom, boom.
They don't feel anything.

Ashley (24:24):
Scientists have done some really cool studies that tell us exactly what's
happening chemically to get to this state.
One study published in 2020 byBelgian researchers recruited 35
BDSM couples to perform a BDSM scene.
That's the term for the kind ofsetting or scenario in which a BDSM
activity or encounter takes place.
It's doing a BDSM.

(24:46):
Anyway, researchers took blood samplesfrom both participants before the scene,
directly after, and post aftercare.
which is the often cuddly winddown time people use to get
back down to Earth afterward.
As a control, the researchersalso took blood samples from 27
couples hanging out at a local bar.
During the scene, subs experienceda massive increase in cortisol,

(25:10):
which is a stress hormone associatedwith that fight or flight feeling.
That's probably not surprising.
But they also experienced aboost in endocannabinoids.
If that word sounds like cannabis to you,that's because it's very closely related.
Endo means inside, and cannabinoid, asyou might guess, is a chemical substance

(25:31):
most commonly found in cannabis.
The whole reason you can get high offof cannabinoids in nature is that you
have receptors for this substance.
And you have receptors for this substancebecause your body makes it in house.
Endocannabinoids can reduceyour perception of pain and give
you a peaceful, floaty feeling.
Subspace makes people feel highbecause they're literally high.

(25:56):
But there's also science to Kayla'sdescription of her mind going blank.

You know, no thoughts, all vibes.
What worries?
What to do list?
It's gone.
The brain is quiet.

Ashley (26:09):
There's this complicated sounding theory called transient hypofrontality.
which was proposed by a psychologyresearcher in Beirut named Arne Dietrich.
It says, in essence, that the brainonly has so many resources to go
around, and when it's faced with tons ofinput, like it is during a BDSM scene,
it shuts off the parts that aren'timportant in the moment so it can focus

(26:30):
on the intense stuff that's happening.
One of those parts that shuts downis the prefrontal cortex, the part of
the brain responsible for executivefunction, working memory, and attention.
When the prefrontal cortex goesquiet, It's no thoughts, all vibes.
You might feel a distortion oftime, a feeling of peacefulness,
and a reduced sense of pain.

(26:53):
It's the same brain state peopleexperience during endurance running,
meditation, daydreaming, hypnosis,and being high on actual drugs.
Sounds amazing, doesn't it?
But that's subspace.
Is there a Dom space?
The word does seem to exist, butit's not all that widely used.

(27:13):
Terminology or not, though, Doms gettheir share of altered consciousness, too.
When the Belgian researchers tookblood samples from Doms, they found
that those who introduced morepower dynamics into their scenes
experienced a spike in endocannabinoids.
That same home baked high.
And when other researchers surveyedDominance directly after BDSM scenes,

(27:34):
the Doms reported experiencing allthe qualities of a flow state, the
kind of full immersion people getwhen focusing on a usually skill
based activity, like playing music,making art, or playing a sport.
Skill, in fact, is anessential part of being a Dom.
Remember Lina's point about 50 Shades?
Well, here's the rest of what she said.

Lina Dune (27:57):
BDSM really hinges on a shared creative reality between all
the participants, and as a sub, ifmy Dom was writing our experience
as badly as that book and film areput together, I would be, I couldn't
get to that transcendent subspace.

(28:17):
I would feel unsafe, honestly, becausea part of BDSM is being able to be
empathetic and flexible and listenwell enough to create something
that both of you can buy into.

Ashley (28:33):
The way that you just described, like, a Dom's responsibility sort of
sounds like Like a dungeon master in D& D?
Like, is there a lot of prepthat is involved in preparing
for a scene for a Dom?

Lina Dune (28:46):
This is so funny.
We tease my Dom, myself and other substhat we play with, because when a new
scene is about to begin or somebody'sexpressed a need for something, And we
haven't really played with it very much.
He goes, okay, I'm getting out thelegal pad, and he'll get out, he has
literally like pages and pages andpages of legal pads where he'll bullet
out like the workflow of all the thingsthat need to happen to lead into a

(29:10):
certain kink being deployed into ascene so that it makes, you know,
we're, we're very creative people.
We love, you know, filmand books and whatever.
So he really needs things to makenarrative sense and be consistent.
Like he's very like, you know, there'sa specific dirty talk narrative
that's been going on all nightand we are going to be like very
consistent to the rules of that world.

(29:31):
You know, other people have their ownway, you know, they, Go more jazz with
it, but he's, um, I think he's verydirectorial when it comes to, to scenes.
And so I get to, you know, offer mysuggestions and then, yeah, things
are very much put into the legal padand, you know, my suggestions are
taken under advisement and then theyget, you know, they get put in, in a
place where they are properly applied.

Ashley (29:55):
Not all Doms draft a narrative on a legal pad before a scene.
But Lina's example shows howmuch care goes into a dom's role.
It's not just guys on a powertrip who like hurting women.

You know, the analogy I've used throughout the years is a well.
A dominant who comes in and just drawsfrom that submissive well, at some
point that well is going to go dry.
You know, as, as a dominant, youhave to give back as much as you get.
It is a give and take.

It's an exchange of power.
It's an exchange.
We are trading and sharingand giving and taking.

I mean, one of the ways that I describe our
relationship, Kayla and I are equals.
We are equals who are now in aconsensually negotiated power imbalance.

And at any point, I can reclaim that power.
I can safe word and say,no, we're not doing this.
I can just withdraw consent in general.
Tomorrow I could say, I can'tbe in a power exchange anymore.
I can't, I can't beyour submissive anymore.
Look, I cannot imagine that we shouldbe at the apocalypse of that happening.

(31:10):
That's not going to happen.
That's, we are not manifesting that.
However, I have that option at all times.
Right.

Ashley (31:18):
After a scene full of intense sensations and power play, with both
people's brains creating a firework showof hormones, it's pretty difficult to
just put your pants back on and get backto your day to day responsibilities.
You need a bit of decompression time.
And that's what's called aftercare.

Lina Dune (31:42):
Safe BDSM is sort of defined by a three-part system, which is negotiation
before you do a scene, and then a scenewhich has active consent and safe words.
And then we do aftercare afterwards,which is sort of how it sounds.
It's a moment for people to regulatetheir nervous systems back into reality.
And the reason we doaftercare is as sort of a

(32:03):
prophylaxis against sub drop or topdrop, which are both these feelings of
depression or dysphoria after sexualityor even just kink exchange, you don't
have to ever have been naked, but sortof traversing these taboos and then
coming back out of it, there can bethis shame spiral or like a big wave

(32:23):
of feeling that comes, so that's whywe create aftercare as a specific time
to make all of this safe, and I hadheard that sub drop was not really
well studied or well understood.
It's just like a thingthat happens and good luck.
And then I did a lot more researchmyself into the phrase post coital
dysphoria, which is a understood andstudied phenomenon among people, all

(32:47):
people who have sex of all genders,where people can feel irritable or
depressed or get tired and after sexfor seemingly no reason, like nothing
necessarily went wrong, but people justfeel off from the transition of feelings.

Ashley (33:02):
There isn't a ton of research on post coital dysphoria, but the research
that exists says it happens to womenmore often than men, and it doesn't
seem to be affected by the closenessof the relationship between partners.
Sometimes you just get sad after sex.

Lina Dune (33:17):
I guess the headline is if you experience those feelings, you're normal.
And also BDSM aftercare perhaps wouldbe great for everybody because sexuality
is such a vulnerable process and having.
A space to transition out of it,whatever that may be, be it casual
or more involved, is something thatI think the human body really enjoys

(33:39):
when we, when we go to that place.
Just having a plan is almost moreimportant than whatever it is.
Just having the intention tosay to your body, like, I know
something serious just happenedhere and like you felt things, body.
So we're going to take a beatto transition back to reality.
It is sort of the essence ofaftercare, whatever that looks like.

(34:01):
Some people want to get up and have adance party, some people want to go on a
run, some people want to get in the bath,you know, whatever it is, finding a way
to sort of bookend the experience andnotate that there is a transition back to
reality happening and you don't have tojust sort of like shake it off and snap
out of it and keep rolling with your day.

Ashley (34:19):
Yeah.
Yet again, the kink community haslessons for the vanilla community.
I mean, that's, thatsounds like great advice.

Lina Dune (34:26):
We want to help them.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Ashley (34:30):
I'm going to let you in on a little secret.
This podcast series is abit of a bait and switch.
I bait you with the promise of peekingin on other people's weird sex lives,
but then bam, I hit you with therealization that they're full humans
who make rational decisions about how toexperience pleasure and you feel empathy.
If you came here for the weird sexstuff, I hope you feel that empathy,

(34:54):
because the misconceptions people haveabout BDSM can be really dangerous
for people who live that lifestyle.

There's a part of me that just wishes it didn't have
to be taboo at all, even though Iunderstand that some of the excitement
is that a lot of it is taboo.
I mean, that's what getsa lot of people off.
It's more of, I just want tobe left alone to be kinky.
I wish I didn't have to worry thatif somebody in my non kink life

(35:23):
found out I was kinky, that it, asit still can today, could cost me a
job, could cost me a relationship,could cost me custody of my children.
When I first figured out I was kinkyand I was going through a divorce, I was
paranoid because I did not know what my exhusband might say or do if he found out.

(35:47):
And at one point, we even had afalling out with family members.
And I'd been in kink for several years.
We'd been together for a while.
We were married already.
And I spent six months waitingfor what felt like a shoe to drop.
for somebody come knocking at my door tomake sure I was a fit parent because I

(36:07):
happen to be kinky and raising two kids.
So part of me is sort of like, Ijust want you to leave me alone
and let me just be kinky on my own.
That's.
That's what I wish.

Ashley (36:27):
Thanks for listening.
I am so thankful to fellow podcastersLina Dune, Kayla Lords, and John
Brownstone for sharing theirstories with me for this episode.
If you're interested in BDSM, I highly,highly recommend their podcasts.
Lena Dune hosts Ask a Sub,and Kayla Lourdes and John
Brownstone host Loving BDSM.
Check them out whereveryou found this show.

(36:48):
And thank you once againto Christian Joyal.
You can find links to all ofhis research in the show notes.
Taboo Science is written andproduced by me, Ashley Hamer.
The theme song is by DaniLopatka of DLC Music.
Episode music is from Epidemic Sound.
I was recently on Tom Scott'sLateral podcast and I noticed a
bunch of new downloads, so if youcame here from there, welcome!

(37:10):
Whether you're a new listener orhave been around for a while, I
would really appreciate it if you'dleave me a review on Apple Podcasts.
That social proof really helpsothers take a chance on the show.
And it also feeds my fragile ego.
Two birds, one stone.
Next time on Philias, we're putting on thefursuit and learning all about furries.
Oh, I'm excited for this.

(37:32):
I hope you tune in.
I won't tell anyone.

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