May 2, 2024 • 32 mins
Fox News recoils at the idea of pup play—but we're looking closer. In this episode of Taboo Science, we dive into the fascinating subculture of humans who enjoy roleplaying as puppies. We'll explore the origins of this kink, from post-WWII leather culture to the rise of online pup communities, and learn what draws people to don a pup hood and bark. Kink researcher Dr. Liam Wignall and sex educator and pup play enthusiast Pup Amp share insights on the gear, the headspace, and the joys and challenges of being a pup. We also tackle the stigma and misconceptions surrounding this kink, and why it's important to approach it with an open mind. So, sit, stay, and listen up—this episode will satisfy your curiosity about the world of pup play, and maybe even inspire you to unleash your own inner puppy.
See citations and a transcript here: https://www.tabooscience.show/042-pupplay/
Resources from Dr. Liam Wignall:
- His book, Kinky In The Digital Age: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/kinky-in-the-digital-age-9780197503195?cc=us&lang=en&
- Faculty page: https://research.brighton.ac.uk/en/persons/liam-wignall
Resources from Amp Somers:
- Website: https://www.wattsthesafeword.com/
- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@WattsTheSafeword
- Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/WattstheSafeWord
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ashley (00:00):
As far as kinks go, pup play is fairly new and a little under the
radar, but you've heard about it.
If you watch Fox News.
Laura Ingraham clip (00:10):
Apparently, there's something called pup kink.
And one retired colonel is soconfident in his identity, he
reportedly released this photo.
And this wasn't just a hobbyhe took up during retirement.
Check this out.
There's bondage.
Animal kink, brazenly posted on Instagramwith hashtags like gay puppy play and gay
(00:33):
leather fetish and pup play, etc, etc.
Ashley (00:37):
In 2022, a right wing Twitter account found an image that one
retired military service member hadposted of himself wearing a pup hood.
The full head dog masks popularamong people who engage in pup play.
He was in uniform in front of theAmerican flag, which was catnip
for right wing accounts like this.
(00:58):
This account published a nearly 50 postlong thread outing this service member
and any other pup players that he waspictured with, posting screenshots from
the individual's Instagram accounts andeven, in some instances, screenshots
from their family members accounts.
Some of these imageswere like the original.
Wearing pup hoods in uniform, butthe majority were just sexy pictures
(01:21):
they'd posted in their personal time.
And as will happen with unverifiedTwitter threads, the media picked it up.
USA Today wrote, Soldiers who worebondage gear and dog masks in sexually
explicit photos while in uniform are underinvestigation, the army confirmed Monday.
The photos in uniform wereseparate from the sexually explicit
(01:41):
photos, but never mind that.
Fox News went over the story severaltimes, with Tucker Carlson also joining
in to complain that the service membersweren't being punished quickly enough.
This was probably many people'sfirst encounter with the concept of
puppy play, and judgment was harsh.
Many considered these peoplepredators, out to groom younger troops.
(02:04):
On a forum, a commenter said, Anyone whosechild is thinking of entering the armed
services should be aware that they verylikely could be turning their child over
to a self described alpha rearer of pups.
Another commenter, It's like a horrormovie, trying to come up with the most
bizarre, depraved, satanic acts thinkable.
But it's real life.
(02:25):
The people outed in the Twitter threadtook their social media profiles private,
and in some cases, deleted them entirely.
But for what?
What is pup play?
And is it really as diabolical asFox News would have you believe?
Today, we're finding out.
We're going to explore what's involved inpup play, how it got its start, and what
(02:46):
it does for the people who are into it.
I'm Ashley Hamer and this is TabooScience, the podcast that answers the
questions you're not allowed to ask.
(03:16):
So let's get into just the basics.
How do you define puppy playand like, what does it entail?
Amp Somers (03:22):
Tail.
Sometimes tails.
Ashley (03:26):
That's Amp Somers also known as Pup Amp.
Amp Somers (03:30):
I'm a sex educator on the internet.
I create content on YouTube, podcasts onyour favorite podcasting app, essentially
just making the internet less scary forpeople that have questions about sex.
Ashley (03:40):
He's the co host of Watt's Your Safe Pod, an all inclusive LGBTQ plus
sex education and BDSM lifestyle podcast.
It aims to break down stigmassurrounding sex while educating
viewers in a fun and inclusive way.
It is very fun and massively popular.
Amp Somers (03:58):
So, like, for instance, people listening, if they were to come up to me
at a bar and ask a question about, like,what does puppy play, I'd be like, well,
You pretend to be a dog, you get to besilly, you get to have fun, and you get
to lean into maybe a different headspace,or a different side of yourself.
Ashley (04:12):
It's important to note that while pup play involves pretending to be
a dog, no actual animals are involved.
This is strictly a form of roleplay andfantasy between consenting human adults.
Amp Somers (04:24):
And also, I'll be like, how would you imagine a person
would start acting like a dog?
And everyone's kind of gottheir inner monologue dog.
If that's who you want tocall it, your inner dog.
But they're like, oh, well, if Iwas a dog, I would be this breed
and I'd be this kind of dog.
Everyone has their idealkind of pet play in mind.
And so I find that letting the person kindof introspectively think about it tends
(04:47):
to help them understand that headspace,or at least why people might enjoy it.
Liam Wignall (04:51):
It's quite difficult to understand what pup play is and
do it justice, because everybodywho engages in it has their own
understanding and interpretation.
So I'm sure what I'm going to say is.
It's accurate for some, butnot, but absolutely not all.
Ashley (05:04):
That's Dr.
Liam Wignall.
Liam Wignall (05:06):
I'm a senior lecturer in psychology at the University of Brighton,
and I conduct research into Sex andsexuality more broadly, but my specialism
is on BDSM, kink subcultures, focusing onthe internet's impact on BDSM and kink.
Pup play is a kink activity and a formof roleplay where individuals imitate a
(05:27):
dog or a puppy and engage in associatedbehaviours that one might see a puppy do.
So being on all fours, barking,biting, scratching, licking, nuzzling.
So some, it's a completely social activitythat they develop and generate this pup
identity in kink environments, kind ofthey're in this pup mindset, um, where
(05:47):
they interact, these engage in theseplayful like behaviors, and it's a way of
generating social connections, as a wayof kind of fostering a pup identity that
is potentially different to your everydayidentity, that is an extension of it,
a way to make friends, community, etc.
For others, it's a completely sexualactivity that engaging in the pup mind
(06:08):
space, being on all fours, wearing gear,is in and of itself quite sexual, it's,
it's arousing, um, that when they engagein pup play, it's alongside other sexual
activities, and I think the fact thatit has that overlap with for the kink
activities that you can be a leatherpup, a lycra pup, a rubber pup, that it
feeds very well or matches very well withthings like bondage, so kind of being
(06:30):
restrained, um, wearing kind of mittens,there are various tails that you can
insert into the anus, which again kindof provides stimulation, um, so yeah, it
overlaps quite easily with sexual stuff.
Amp Somers (06:43):
The other people that get into it will, will do it for therapeutic
reasons, not a replacement for therapy.
But it gives you a headspacethat is something you can
create, that is something youcan navigate and make your own.
And I know a lot of people that getin that space when they kind of feel
traumatized or they're feeling triggered,and it helps with the PTSD, um, plenty of
(07:07):
people from the military come to pup playand find that community just welcoming
and helpful to that headspace as well.
Liam Wignall (07:14):
For the majority of people though, pup play is
somewhere within the middle.
It can be both a social and a sexualactivity, depending on the context,
who they speak to, the environment.
Ashley (07:29):
Just as someone who participates in BDSM might identify
as a dominant or a submissive, a topor a bottom, people who engage in pup
play identify in certain ways too.
In this context, the dominantmight not be a pup at all.
They might be a handler or a trainer,whatever word they choose to use.
Often, a handler helps to keep a pup fromlosing themselves too much in the scene,
(07:51):
especially if they're deep into pup space.
Liam Wignall (07:54):
Pup space, which is the pup play equivalent of subspace, where
individuals can become so immersed in,in the activities that they're engaging
in, that they lose track of time, theylose kind of track of kind of the things
that are going on around them, and theyengage in that more kind of instinctual
like thinking in relation to pup play.
And a handler's role can be to, youknow, stand to one side and just, If
(08:18):
the pup is engaged with other pupsto, to make sure that they're okay, to
provide water, to help their gear, tomake sure that they're not engaging in
too boisterous activities where they'reclearly other people being like, oh
my god, that pup is doing too much.
So maybe they need toreel them in a little bit.
Ashley (08:35):
But handlers sometimes act as traditional doms too.
Liam Wignall (08:38):
There's also, you know, people engaging in kink and
BDSM in private spaces as well.
And there's, that same thing can happenthat you have a pup and a handler, so
engaging a pup player in that environment,and maybe focusing a bit more on the
sexual, where they allow the pup toengage in that subspace, but kind of
it's a pup space, to A, be taken careof, but also to give up control, to
allow somebody to take the lead onthe pleasure, or yeah, to kind of have
(09:00):
that, you know, Instinctual thinking,
Ashley (09:02):
But when it comes to pups, it's not like they're all subs.
Amp Somers (09:06):
People always assume that the puppy is the submissive
one that is always told what to do.
Not always the case.
Sometimes they're the doms ina situation, maybe there's two
puppies playing with each other.
You don't even need a handlersometimes if you're just in
a, a fun, playful headspace.
But puppies can be tops,puppies can be switches.
I know people that get intotheir packs of just a bunch of
(09:27):
puppies, and there's no handler.
But there might be an alpha, abeta, a gamma, omega, like there
are groups and packs like that.
And there's, I can name a few here inSan Francisco of like, you know, seven
to eight people that are in this packthat it's like a family, you know?
And some of them might be subs,some of them might be doms, some
of them might even be switches.
(09:47):
but they are still pups in,in all ways, shapes and forms.
Ashley (09:52):
So that's what pup play involves.
But what are these pup hoods all about?
A pup hood is a full face maskdesigned to look like a dog, with
ears, a protruding muzzle with anose, and often little breathing
holes where whiskers might usually be.
There are big eye holes so it'seasy to interact with others in it,
and the muzzle is often removableso you can eat and drink easily.
(10:14):
But beyond that, everypup hood is different.
Amp Somers (10:18):
I've got a little hood that was, like, a custom made thing.
Lots of puppies love to get something thathas, you know, custom colors, so I do have
my own special hood that, like, I helpedthe person who made it, like, design.
It's got, you know, littleaccents and lightning bolts.
And it's very personal to me.
So like, if people saw that, theymight know that, you know, that
was my, my hood or me in that hood.
Ashley (10:39):
These hoods can be made of all sorts of materials at all sorts
of price points, at least today.
Dr.
Wignall actually watched thisproliferation of pup hood styles
take off as part of his studies.
Liam Wignall (10:51):
When I was doing ethnography and watching the development
of pup play, it was fascinating howquickly different kink websites that
sold kink paraphernalia created waysof being an individual as a pup.
Pup Play was this new kink thatthere were no rules, there were no
ways of engaging in activity, therewas no kind of set uniform, etc.
(11:12):
So very early iterations ofthe pup hood would be kind of
this leather dog hood mask.
It was not necessarily whatI would consider pup play.
It'd be more kind of dog slave play.
There was a dehumanizing element of it.
You know, you're that beneath me.
You're not a slave.
You're just a dog.
And that is kind of where some of theroots of pup play is, but then they kind
of became this whole different aspectof pup play that was separate from that,
(11:36):
and there's still some overlap, um, butallows kind of, again, this playfulness,
so it starts to move away from leather puphoods, which cost hundreds of dollars, and
more towards, you know, neoprene hoods.
Mr.
S.
Leather created a neoprene pup hoodthat has kind of stood the test of time.
It's still one of the most popular,and actually the price point was, at
(11:56):
the time, super reasonable, comparedto some of the other pup hoods.
Now, we see a cheaper version of theneoprene, so rather than kind of the
soft top layer of the neoprene, it'skind of the layers underneath, and
they can be dyed, and they can bekind of done in different ways, and
you can start to kind of visuallyrepresent who you are as a pup.
So if you're a bisexual pup.
You might have kind of a pup hoodand then one of the floppy ears
(12:19):
might have the bisexual flag on it.
So just a visible way to kind ofshowing who you are as an individual.
Ashley (12:25):
Custom animal themed gear that expresses who you are as an individual?
This is all sounding a lotlike the furry community.
And yeah, there are a lot ofoverlaps between the furry community
and the pup play community.
There's even a kind offursona that puppies take on.
Amp Somers (12:44):
A fursona is just essentially a furry persona for
anyone that might not be familiar.
You see someone with a fursuit,you know, and they start, like,
acting within that character.
A lot of people that have fursuits, theyhave the way that they kind of handle
and carry themselves while in suit, andthen they might be a little different
out of suit, because it's like a mascotalmost for them like at a sports game.
(13:05):
No one goes around jumping andscreaming like in mascot headspace,
if that's a thing, um, at all times.
As far as puppy play, I find that alot of people come to the pup play
community, even the kink community,because they get to dress up and have fun.
The puppies love their sports gear,their spandex, their superhero outfits.
And for me, gear helps you getinto a headspace as well, similar
(13:27):
to those mascots and furries.
It gives you a bit of anonymity,but also gives you permission to act
as whatever you are dressing up as.
It is a roleplay in that sense.
Whether you're doing it withsomeone or not, or with a group.
Um, and the gear helps you to getinto that headspace in many ways.
Ashley (13:44):
Some pups are also furries.
The two roles can serve as differentthings for different people.
Liam Wignall (13:50):
The pup that I interviewed who is also a furry described kind
of different identities, differentactivities that they would engage in
when they were embodying their fursonaor embodying their pup identity.
So the pup identity for this individualthat I interviewed, There was more focus
on kind of the sexual aspects of it.
There was more focus on theoverlap with other kink activities.
(14:10):
When they were kind of embodyingtheir fursona, it was more about
exploration of their fursona, thatidentity, the interaction with others.
It's complex.
Ashley (14:21):
On the last episode about furries, Riley Black said that at least once a
year there's an all out internet brawlin the furry community about whether
to allow pup hoods into conventions.
Part of that is due to the fact that pupplay is a form of BDSM, and many furries
are dedicated to keeping furry spaceswholesome and appropriate for all ages.
And not all pups think furriesare the greatest either.
Amp Somers (14:44):
To say that there's no overlap with pup and like furry, feels
very disingenuous and there's a lot ofnaysayers in one or the other community
that say like, oh, that's not us.
Um, but I find that's a little bit of a,an insecurity or projection, where they
find maybe the sex part of the pup playscary, because they don't understand it,
or people think that furries are, becauseof the way we sensationalize them in
(15:08):
media, in news, talk shows, like, somepup players would be like, eww, furries.
But the communities, while separate,have so much overlap, and they both
deserve a little bit of like the creditthere of like, it's okay to be silly.
And that's the fun part.
Ashley (15:26):
When we come back, we're talking about how pup play got
started, the kinds of people whoparticipate, and why they like it.
Stick around.
While the origins of the furrycommunity are cut and dry, pup
play's history is a bit murkier.
(15:47):
In fact, the community and the scientiststend to disagree about how it got started.
In one view, you can look at human historyand see the many ways people in different
cultures have taken on the persona of ananimal for ritual or religious reasons.
Think spirit animals, gods that disguisethemselves as animals, skinwalkers
who can turn themselves into anyanimal just by wearing its pelt.
(16:10):
There's no documented connectionbetween these traditions and pup
play as a practice, but they'recommonly mentioned in pup play lore.
While there are various storiesabout the actual origins of pup play,
including unverified accounts ofprisoners of war engaging in animal
roleplay, the most likely roots ofthe kink as we know it today are in
post World War II leather subculture.
(16:40):
See, after the war, queer servicemembers who'd grown up in rural,
intolerant American towns decidedto stay in the major cities where
they'd recently been stationed.
These individuals formed communities andcreated what are now some of the most
famous LGBTQ friendly regions in the U.
S. (16:56):
The Castro in San Francisco, Cherry Grove and Fire Island
Pines in New York, and a ton more.
This was also when motorcycleclubs began to spread.
Many former G.
I.
s started riding military surplusmotorcycles in their leather pilot jackets
and banding together for camaraderieand support after the horrors of war.
(17:18):
And gay G.
I.
s were no exception.
Lots of gay motorcycle groupssprang up around this time, too.
The combination of LGBTQ people,leather apparel, and the military
love of hierarchy gave birth tothe leather community and its
focus on dominance and submission.
And what's one of the lowest roles asubmissive can be forced to take on?
(17:40):
An animal.
A pet.
A dog.
That kind of animal slave play waskind of the extent of it for decades.
Amp Somers (17:49):
I think the cute, the fun, the more playful side kind of came out
of that when people realized oh, we'realready pretty free about what we're
doing, we're already getting into it, whynot just be a little more silly and fun?
Ashley (18:01):
According to Dr.
Wignall's research, the pup playcommunity as it is today didn't
get its start until the 2010s.
He traces it back to a pupin Chicago named Pup Brue.
Brue had been dressing up as a dogfor kink events since the early 1990s,
even though many people around himdidn't really get what he was doing.
In 2002, Brue attended International Mr.
(18:24):
Leather, or IML, a majorkink and leather conference.
Liam Wignall (18:29):
Kind of dressed as a pup.
They had a tail, they had theirkneepads and gloves, etc, and
they were just popping out.
They were just pretending to be a pup.
They were engaging in pup play, andthey saw somebody else, and it was
that moment of like, Oh, I'm not alone!
There's another one!
And they just kind of pupped out together.
I think one or two people joined themlike, oh my god, Let's meet next year,
(18:50):
and you're the first pup I've come across.
And it started to kind of spiral,and it just grew and grew and
grew, and then there startedto be pup play at other events.
Ashley (18:58):
By 2006, there were enough of them to rent a room at IML devoted to pub play.
And the rest is history.
Apparently.
Remember how I said the scientists andthe community differ on the origin story?
Yeah, Amp hadn't heardthis particular story.
But he's not saying it's not true.
Amp Somers (19:17):
Well, considering I've worked with Brue for many years, if this is the
same Brue I'm thinking of, um, I usedto work full time at a shop called Mr.
S Leather here in San Francisco.
They're definitely one of the largerretailers that sell kink and fetish goods.
Uh, Brue was the receivingmanager, so he would receive
and send out packages for Mr.
(19:38):
S.
And he's been in the community thelongest of many people that I know.
I'm not saying Brue wasn't the firstone, um, but I will say that the first
documented picture was from like the70s of a guy on a leash on all fours.
It was very much like a dog or slaveheadspace that people saw and I
think kind of ran with it themselves.
Like, that's my take on it islike, everyone has different ways
(20:01):
that they see animal role play,or just acting as an animal.
And I think some people leaned into itand were confident enough to play with it.
And I think that's whereit just got popular.
But I'll, I'm willing togive Brue that credit.
Ashley (20:18):
Yeah, I'm starting to, it's, it's easy to think about kink practices
as like tech devices or something.
Like someone had to invent it,but I think that's not how it is.
I think that you, you see things inyour life and they, they spark something
in you and you want to practice it.
And there's, it's not like you needsomeone to tell you how to do that.
(20:38):
Um, but then, If you see otherpeople who are like you, that's when,
you know, practices and, and, andterminology and stuff starts to pop up.
Amp Somers (20:47):
Yeah, community starts.
Ashley (20:49):
So however it happened, pup play is now a practice and a community
that appeals to a lot of people.
Those people are mostly gaymen, though not exclusively.
Amp Somers (20:59):
One of the top questions I get as an educator that's visible online,
because I put myself out there, is whyis it only for guys, or why is it only
for gay men, when in fact it's not.
They just, that community formed quicker,and it's now the most visible for some
people when they look into pet play.
Um, but there are tons of, not onlyfemale identified, but more femme title
(21:23):
holders, even non binary and transpeople that are part of that community
that help run those events behind thescenes that you don't see, maybe, but
they are absolutely vibing, existing.
Liam Wignall (21:33):
One of the really interesting things about pup play is,
you don't really need much to engagein it, and if you're focusing on
the social aspect of it, it doesn'tmatter what body you have or, or
what your sexual orientation is, etc.
So, I, uh, I've often seen at pubevents kind of a lot of trans people,
non binary people, queer people.
(21:54):
I also see a lot of different body types.
There isn't really a set typeof individual who engages
in pup play, you know.
It has that kind of real flexibilityand real, there can be a real
openness within the community todifferent people engaging in it.
Particularly, again, when you'refocusing on the social aspects.
If you're a pup kind of looking atsomebody in front of you, you just
see a pup in a hood on all fours.
(22:16):
You don't necessarily know what thegender or sexual orientation is.
Ashley (22:21):
So, here's the big question.
Why?
From the outside world, seeing someonedressed in what's essentially bondage gear
and acting like a dog is kind of strange.
What's the appeal of being a pup?
Amp Somers (22:34):
People can't understand why a bunch of grown adults want to
get on a pair of, like, wrestling matsand put on a costume, for lack of a
better term for some people, and wrestlearound, and bark, and play with toys.
People have a hard time understandingwhy you would want to do that.
But like, why do you go to the gym?
(22:55):
Why do you go to the golfing range?
Why do you hit some balls?
Like, you are doing an activity that isnot only fun and invigorating and gets
your juices flowing, but you're ableto get into a fun, silly headspace.
And when you break it down like that,they're like, oh okay, I get it.
I go to the gym.
I'm able to do that to like,for, for like, getting out of my
body, getting out of my stresses.
(23:16):
But you can do it in a fun mask, too?
Like, when you start to talk about it,people can wrap their mind around it.
But when you look at someone justbeing on all fours, barking and
acting silly, it's kind of weird.
And I'll be the first to say, it's weird.
And I don't mean that in a negative way.
Like, it's just weird.
Liam Wignall (23:31):
We don't often question why people engage in yoga
or running, because we just assumethat it's an enjoyable activity.
We assume, and we know that peopledescribe feeling better after it.
Um, for the why people want to dolike marathons and whatever is beyond
me because I'd just be exhausted.
So people describe kind of beingrelaxed at the end of yoga.
All those kind of things peoplehave described about pup play, that
they feel relaxed at the end of it.
(23:53):
One of my participants was stressed forupcoming exams, they put a pup hood on.
And there was something comfortingabout putting the hoods on and just
engaging in the activities thatthey felt a reduction in stress.
Ashley (24:03):
There's also a lot to be said for belonging to a community, one
where you can be yourself, or evenbe a different version of yourself.
Liam Wignall (24:11):
Pup play has allowed some people to have that kind of
pathway into a kink community, um,that attendant, playful events where
there's very minimal requirements ongear, if any, you know, one participant
said, you just need a mindset tobe a pup, you just need to kind of
jump in and act like a dog.
If you can do that, youknow, you're doing pup play.
(24:31):
So it provides people withaccess to, uh, to a community,
to, to an entire subculture.
And I think the final kind ofsocial aspect is, relates to an
identity that one can create.
And this isn't kind ofunique to, to pup play.
There's a whole bunch of differentleisure activities where people
create a unique identity.
(24:51):
But if one is particularly shy intheir everyday life, when they're
engaging in pup play, they couldthink to myself, Okay, I'm going
to be the loud, boisterous one.
I'm going to be the energetic one.
I'm going to see how peoplerespond in this safe environment.
I'm going to, I'm goingto be so fucking queer.
You wouldn't believe it.
I'm going to make sure thatI feel sexy in my body.
I'm going to do all this kind ofstuff and they're going to explore
(25:13):
different aspects of themselves.
And they might then adopt some ofthose things to their kind of everyday
identity, and then might be startingto be like emerging of the two.
It's a real unique opportunity tokind of play with one's identity.
Ashley (25:26):
Something that this has been reminding me of, and I feel
like maybe it's the wrong comparisonbecause of this headspace thing,
but it's, it's sounding like improv?
Amp Somers (25:35):
Oh yeah.
Ashley (25:36):
It is?
It's similar to that?
Amp Somers (25:37):
Improv and kink, or even just like a nerdy kind of like D& D.
If you, if you play D& D and you loveD& D, you'd be a great DM both in D&
D but also in an actual dungeon likea dungeon master because being able
to improv gives you so many skillsets of, Oh, I'm, I'm always hyper
(25:57):
vigilant and aware of what's happening.
Oh, this person's feeling this way orbody language looks like this and you're
able to kind of roll with the punches.
There is nothing that takes you out of ascene quicker than oops, or like someone
that doesn't know what to do next.
And improvisation is— I lovedWhose Line Is It Anyway as, as
a kid, like one of my faves.
Um, yeah, but you can tell whensomeone's like really good at like,
(26:19):
crafting the scene and even justrolling with the punches, even
if there's no punching involved.
Ashley (26:25):
Okay?
So getting on all fours and acting likea dog with other people is a way to have
fun, relax, get out of your head, try on anew identity and be a part of a community.
That makes sense.
But what about that is sexy?
Well, for one thing, the anonymitythat you get from putting on a pup
hood can be exciting in and of itself.
(26:45):
There's a freedom there that you mightnot get with people who know you in your
everyday life and a thrill of the unknown.
Anything could happen.
But pup play can also be a wayto pair more intimidating kink
activities with a little dose of fun.
Liam Wignall (27:07):
Pup play has a lot of different overlaps with other kink
activities, fondage, water sports.
fisting, flogging, pain, all thatkind of stuff, a whole bunch of
different activities that you canengage with alongside pup play.
And pup play, because of the natureof what it is, I've argued it provides
a route into kink that is potentiallyeasier for people compared to in the past.
(27:33):
So you can engage in certain kinkactivities and because you're
not within that kind of slavemindset, you're not in that.
submissive mindset where maybethere's kind of a focus on you
need to please the other person,you need to do as you're told.
If you're a pup and you don't likesomething, you can bark and crawl away.
And there's just kind of that differentmindset that the kink activities
(27:54):
that are occurring are done in apotentially playful environment because
of the, the association of pup play.
So it allows people to kind ofpotentially explore different kinks
and activities at an easier pace, asafer pace, with a different mindset.
Ashley (28:11):
When you think about pup play as a fun, more playful version of
other kink activities, it starts toseem really weird that someone might
see it as a uniquely sick and deviantfetish the way that Fox News does.
Like whips and chains are onething, but put on a cute puppy mask
when you do it and my goodness,someone think of the children.
(28:32):
But the fact is, they do see it thatway, which is one of the reasons the
anonymity of pup play is so important.
In light of that, I asked Ampabout the risks people face when
they engage in the community.
Amp Somers (28:44):
Well, they, first of all, they risk getting, um, a bunch of dog
brands emailing you every other dayasking to be sponsors of your dog podcast.
And that's probably, that's,that's a problem only for me.
Um, but I think
Ashley (28:58):
Like kibble and like stuff like that?
Amp Somers (29:00):
Dog food, dog toys, dog, like boxes of, of specific,
They
Ashley (29:04):
just like haven't done the research.
Amp Somers (29:06):
They don't.
Yeah.
And then when I, when I do respond, if Iever respond, they'll be like, Oh, sorry.
Um, but for the general population thatjoins the community, um, I think that
people do sometimes have that, like, thathesitation to get involved because they
don't want to be outed, they don't wanttheir employers seeing them in a dog mask.
(29:28):
And I think that that's a valid concernbecause the way that we have sex but also
kinks so sensationalized by the media,by politics, by our politicians who are
saying like, kids are using litter boxesin high schools, which was a proven,
like, made up thing that then politiciansran with, are trying to make bills now
(29:49):
where they can have animal control comeand reprimand children for just being
a furry like you do face that stigmaof people sensationalizing who you are
as a sexual person or not, and that's,that's, that's hard, that can be scary.
Ashley (30:07):
Amp knows.
Those members of the militarywho were outed on Twitter?
Those were his friends.
Amp Somers (30:13):
They got dragged by all of the right wing, you know, news,
by everyone online, where they hadto go private, like, they don't,
they don't exist online anymore.
They're still unabashedly themselvesand happy with who they are, but there
is a backlash sometimes because peopledon't understand why you would want
to get into that kind of headspace.
(30:34):
And it's not easy.
I wish people would understandthat we're all into something.
We all get the butterfliesfrom extracurricular.
quote unquote, not normal things.
And I wish we were all a littleless judgmental because of that.
Because whenever, whenever I see discourseonline, it's from a place of stigma or
(30:55):
shame that was put there by someone else.
Whether how you were raised, yourparents, your religion, politics
that you've been forced to consume,whether inadvertently or on purpose.
And those misconceptions start so manyfights that make people feel invalidated.
I just wish we all understood thatwe all come from a place that's
different, but doesn't make it scary.
Ashley (31:21):
Thanks for listening.
Huge thanks to Dr.
Liam Wignall and AmpSomers for talking to me.
You can buy Dr.
Wignall's book about gay men'ssubcultures online called Kinky in the
Digital Age on Oxford University Press.
There's a link in the show notes.
You can hear and see Amp on Watt's YourSafe Pod on your favorite podcast app,
Watt's the Safe Word on YouTube, andhis frequent live streams on Twitch.
(31:45):
And you can also find him on mostsocial apps under PupAmp, all one word.
Taboo Science is written andproduced by me, Ashley Hamer.
The theme song is by DannyLopatka of DLC Music.
Episode music is from Epidemic Sound.
I'm starting to think about extra episodesof the Philias miniseries, so if there's
(32:05):
a kink or fetish that I haven't coveredthat you want to hear about, let me know!
You can email me atashley@tabooscience.show.
The next episode is all about cuckolding.
Turns out the types of guys most likelyto call people cucks are the types of
guys most likely to be cucks themselves.
Who knew?
(32:25):
Hope you tune in next time.
I won't tell anyone.
As far as kinks go, pup play is fairly new and a little under the
radar, but you've heard about it.
If you watch Fox News.
Laura Ingraham clip (00:10):
Apparently, there's something called pup kink.
And one retired colonel is soconfident in his identity, he
reportedly released this photo.
And this wasn't just a hobbyhe took up during retirement.
Check this out.
There's bondage.
Animal kink, brazenly posted on Instagramwith hashtags like gay puppy play and gay
(00:33):
leather fetish and pup play, etc, etc.
Ashley (00:37):
In 2022, a right wing Twitter account found an image that one
retired military service member hadposted of himself wearing a pup hood.
The full head dog masks popularamong people who engage in pup play.
He was in uniform in front of theAmerican flag, which was catnip
for right wing accounts like this.
(00:58):
This account published a nearly 50 postlong thread outing this service member
and any other pup players that he waspictured with, posting screenshots from
the individual's Instagram accounts andeven, in some instances, screenshots
from their family members accounts.
Some of these imageswere like the original.
Wearing pup hoods in uniform, butthe majority were just sexy pictures
(01:21):
they'd posted in their personal time.
And as will happen with unverifiedTwitter threads, the media picked it up.
USA Today wrote, Soldiers who worebondage gear and dog masks in sexually
explicit photos while in uniform are underinvestigation, the army confirmed Monday.
The photos in uniform wereseparate from the sexually explicit
(01:41):
photos, but never mind that.
Fox News went over the story severaltimes, with Tucker Carlson also joining
in to complain that the service membersweren't being punished quickly enough.
This was probably many people'sfirst encounter with the concept of
puppy play, and judgment was harsh.
Many considered these peoplepredators, out to groom younger troops.
(02:04):
On a forum, a commenter said, Anyone whosechild is thinking of entering the armed
services should be aware that they verylikely could be turning their child over
to a self described alpha rearer of pups.
Another commenter, It's like a horrormovie, trying to come up with the most
bizarre, depraved, satanic acts thinkable.
But it's real life.
(02:25):
The people outed in the Twitter threadtook their social media profiles private,
and in some cases, deleted them entirely.
But for what?
What is pup play?
And is it really as diabolical asFox News would have you believe?
Today, we're finding out.
We're going to explore what's involved inpup play, how it got its start, and what
(02:46):
it does for the people who are into it.
I'm Ashley Hamer and this is TabooScience, the podcast that answers the
questions you're not allowed to ask.
(03:16):
So let's get into just the basics.
How do you define puppy playand like, what does it entail?
Amp Somers (03:22):
Tail.
Sometimes tails.
Ashley (03:26):
That's Amp Somers also known as Pup Amp.
Amp Somers (03:30):
I'm a sex educator on the internet.
I create content on YouTube, podcasts onyour favorite podcasting app, essentially
just making the internet less scary forpeople that have questions about sex.
Ashley (03:40):
He's the co host of Watt's Your Safe Pod, an all inclusive LGBTQ plus
sex education and BDSM lifestyle podcast.
It aims to break down stigmassurrounding sex while educating
viewers in a fun and inclusive way.
It is very fun and massively popular.
Amp Somers (03:58):
So, like, for instance, people listening, if they were to come up to me
at a bar and ask a question about, like,what does puppy play, I'd be like, well,
You pretend to be a dog, you get to besilly, you get to have fun, and you get
to lean into maybe a different headspace,or a different side of yourself.
Ashley (04:12):
It's important to note that while pup play involves pretending to be
a dog, no actual animals are involved.
This is strictly a form of roleplay andfantasy between consenting human adults.
Amp Somers (04:24):
And also, I'll be like, how would you imagine a person
would start acting like a dog?
And everyone's kind of gottheir inner monologue dog.
If that's who you want tocall it, your inner dog.
But they're like, oh, well, if Iwas a dog, I would be this breed
and I'd be this kind of dog.
Everyone has their idealkind of pet play in mind.
And so I find that letting the person kindof introspectively think about it tends
(04:47):
to help them understand that headspace,or at least why people might enjoy it.
Liam Wignall (04:51):
It's quite difficult to understand what pup play is and
do it justice, because everybodywho engages in it has their own
understanding and interpretation.
So I'm sure what I'm going to say is.
It's accurate for some, butnot, but absolutely not all.
Ashley (05:04):
That's Dr.
Liam Wignall.
Liam Wignall (05:06):
I'm a senior lecturer in psychology at the University of Brighton,
and I conduct research into Sex andsexuality more broadly, but my specialism
is on BDSM, kink subcultures, focusing onthe internet's impact on BDSM and kink.
Pup play is a kink activity and a formof roleplay where individuals imitate a
(05:27):
dog or a puppy and engage in associatedbehaviours that one might see a puppy do.
So being on all fours, barking,biting, scratching, licking, nuzzling.
So some, it's a completely social activitythat they develop and generate this pup
identity in kink environments, kind ofthey're in this pup mindset, um, where
(05:47):
they interact, these engage in theseplayful like behaviors, and it's a way of
generating social connections, as a wayof kind of fostering a pup identity that
is potentially different to your everydayidentity, that is an extension of it,
a way to make friends, community, etc.
For others, it's a completely sexualactivity that engaging in the pup mind
(06:08):
space, being on all fours, wearing gear,is in and of itself quite sexual, it's,
it's arousing, um, that when they engagein pup play, it's alongside other sexual
activities, and I think the fact thatit has that overlap with for the kink
activities that you can be a leatherpup, a lycra pup, a rubber pup, that it
feeds very well or matches very well withthings like bondage, so kind of being
(06:30):
restrained, um, wearing kind of mittens,there are various tails that you can
insert into the anus, which again kindof provides stimulation, um, so yeah, it
overlaps quite easily with sexual stuff.
Amp Somers (06:43):
The other people that get into it will, will do it for therapeutic
reasons, not a replacement for therapy.
But it gives you a headspacethat is something you can
create, that is something youcan navigate and make your own.
And I know a lot of people that getin that space when they kind of feel
traumatized or they're feeling triggered,and it helps with the PTSD, um, plenty of
(07:07):
people from the military come to pup playand find that community just welcoming
and helpful to that headspace as well.
Liam Wignall (07:14):
For the majority of people though, pup play is
somewhere within the middle.
It can be both a social and a sexualactivity, depending on the context,
who they speak to, the environment.
Ashley (07:29):
Just as someone who participates in BDSM might identify
as a dominant or a submissive, a topor a bottom, people who engage in pup
play identify in certain ways too.
In this context, the dominantmight not be a pup at all.
They might be a handler or a trainer,whatever word they choose to use.
Often, a handler helps to keep a pup fromlosing themselves too much in the scene,
(07:51):
especially if they're deep into pup space.
Liam Wignall (07:54):
Pup space, which is the pup play equivalent of subspace, where
individuals can become so immersed in,in the activities that they're engaging
in, that they lose track of time, theylose kind of track of kind of the things
that are going on around them, and theyengage in that more kind of instinctual
like thinking in relation to pup play.
And a handler's role can be to, youknow, stand to one side and just, If
(08:18):
the pup is engaged with other pupsto, to make sure that they're okay, to
provide water, to help their gear, tomake sure that they're not engaging in
too boisterous activities where they'reclearly other people being like, oh
my god, that pup is doing too much.
So maybe they need toreel them in a little bit.
Ashley (08:35):
But handlers sometimes act as traditional doms too.
Liam Wignall (08:38):
There's also, you know, people engaging in kink and
BDSM in private spaces as well.
And there's, that same thing can happenthat you have a pup and a handler, so
engaging a pup player in that environment,and maybe focusing a bit more on the
sexual, where they allow the pup toengage in that subspace, but kind of
it's a pup space, to A, be taken careof, but also to give up control, to
allow somebody to take the lead onthe pleasure, or yeah, to kind of have
(09:00):
that, you know, Instinctual thinking,
Ashley (09:02):
But when it comes to pups, it's not like they're all subs.
Amp Somers (09:06):
People always assume that the puppy is the submissive
one that is always told what to do.
Not always the case.
Sometimes they're the doms ina situation, maybe there's two
puppies playing with each other.
You don't even need a handlersometimes if you're just in
a, a fun, playful headspace.
But puppies can be tops,puppies can be switches.
I know people that get intotheir packs of just a bunch of
(09:27):
puppies, and there's no handler.
But there might be an alpha, abeta, a gamma, omega, like there
are groups and packs like that.
And there's, I can name a few here inSan Francisco of like, you know, seven
to eight people that are in this packthat it's like a family, you know?
And some of them might be subs,some of them might be doms, some
of them might even be switches.
(09:47):
but they are still pups in,in all ways, shapes and forms.
Ashley (09:52):
So that's what pup play involves.
But what are these pup hoods all about?
A pup hood is a full face maskdesigned to look like a dog, with
ears, a protruding muzzle with anose, and often little breathing
holes where whiskers might usually be.
There are big eye holes so it'seasy to interact with others in it,
and the muzzle is often removableso you can eat and drink easily.
(10:14):
But beyond that, everypup hood is different.
Amp Somers (10:18):
I've got a little hood that was, like, a custom made thing.
Lots of puppies love to get something thathas, you know, custom colors, so I do have
my own special hood that, like, I helpedthe person who made it, like, design.
It's got, you know, littleaccents and lightning bolts.
And it's very personal to me.
So like, if people saw that, theymight know that, you know, that
was my, my hood or me in that hood.
Ashley (10:39):
These hoods can be made of all sorts of materials at all sorts
of price points, at least today.
Dr.
Wignall actually watched thisproliferation of pup hood styles
take off as part of his studies.
Liam Wignall (10:51):
When I was doing ethnography and watching the development
of pup play, it was fascinating howquickly different kink websites that
sold kink paraphernalia created waysof being an individual as a pup.
Pup Play was this new kink thatthere were no rules, there were no
ways of engaging in activity, therewas no kind of set uniform, etc.
(11:12):
So very early iterations ofthe pup hood would be kind of
this leather dog hood mask.
It was not necessarily whatI would consider pup play.
It'd be more kind of dog slave play.
There was a dehumanizing element of it.
You know, you're that beneath me.
You're not a slave.
You're just a dog.
And that is kind of where some of theroots of pup play is, but then they kind
of became this whole different aspectof pup play that was separate from that,
(11:36):
and there's still some overlap, um, butallows kind of, again, this playfulness,
so it starts to move away from leather puphoods, which cost hundreds of dollars, and
more towards, you know, neoprene hoods.
Mr.
S.
Leather created a neoprene pup hoodthat has kind of stood the test of time.
It's still one of the most popular,and actually the price point was, at
(11:56):
the time, super reasonable, comparedto some of the other pup hoods.
Now, we see a cheaper version of theneoprene, so rather than kind of the
soft top layer of the neoprene, it'skind of the layers underneath, and
they can be dyed, and they can bekind of done in different ways, and
you can start to kind of visuallyrepresent who you are as a pup.
So if you're a bisexual pup.
You might have kind of a pup hoodand then one of the floppy ears
(12:19):
might have the bisexual flag on it.
So just a visible way to kind ofshowing who you are as an individual.
Ashley (12:25):
Custom animal themed gear that expresses who you are as an individual?
This is all sounding a lotlike the furry community.
And yeah, there are a lot ofoverlaps between the furry community
and the pup play community.
There's even a kind offursona that puppies take on.
Amp Somers (12:44):
A fursona is just essentially a furry persona for
anyone that might not be familiar.
You see someone with a fursuit,you know, and they start, like,
acting within that character.
A lot of people that have fursuits, theyhave the way that they kind of handle
and carry themselves while in suit, andthen they might be a little different
out of suit, because it's like a mascotalmost for them like at a sports game.
(13:05):
No one goes around jumping andscreaming like in mascot headspace,
if that's a thing, um, at all times.
As far as puppy play, I find that alot of people come to the pup play
community, even the kink community,because they get to dress up and have fun.
The puppies love their sports gear,their spandex, their superhero outfits.
And for me, gear helps you getinto a headspace as well, similar
(13:27):
to those mascots and furries.
It gives you a bit of anonymity,but also gives you permission to act
as whatever you are dressing up as.
It is a roleplay in that sense.
Whether you're doing it withsomeone or not, or with a group.
Um, and the gear helps you to getinto that headspace in many ways.
Ashley (13:44):
Some pups are also furries.
The two roles can serve as differentthings for different people.
Liam Wignall (13:50):
The pup that I interviewed who is also a furry described kind
of different identities, differentactivities that they would engage in
when they were embodying their fursonaor embodying their pup identity.
So the pup identity for this individualthat I interviewed, There was more focus
on kind of the sexual aspects of it.
There was more focus on theoverlap with other kink activities.
(14:10):
When they were kind of embodyingtheir fursona, it was more about
exploration of their fursona, thatidentity, the interaction with others.
It's complex.
Ashley (14:21):
On the last episode about furries, Riley Black said that at least once a
year there's an all out internet brawlin the furry community about whether
to allow pup hoods into conventions.
Part of that is due to the fact that pupplay is a form of BDSM, and many furries
are dedicated to keeping furry spaceswholesome and appropriate for all ages.
And not all pups think furriesare the greatest either.
Amp Somers (14:44):
To say that there's no overlap with pup and like furry, feels
very disingenuous and there's a lot ofnaysayers in one or the other community
that say like, oh, that's not us.
Um, but I find that's a little bit of a,an insecurity or projection, where they
find maybe the sex part of the pup playscary, because they don't understand it,
or people think that furries are, becauseof the way we sensationalize them in
(15:08):
media, in news, talk shows, like, somepup players would be like, eww, furries.
But the communities, while separate,have so much overlap, and they both
deserve a little bit of like the creditthere of like, it's okay to be silly.
And that's the fun part.
Ashley (15:26):
When we come back, we're talking about how pup play got
started, the kinds of people whoparticipate, and why they like it.
Stick around.
While the origins of the furrycommunity are cut and dry, pup
play's history is a bit murkier.
(15:47):
In fact, the community and the scientiststend to disagree about how it got started.
In one view, you can look at human historyand see the many ways people in different
cultures have taken on the persona of ananimal for ritual or religious reasons.
Think spirit animals, gods that disguisethemselves as animals, skinwalkers
who can turn themselves into anyanimal just by wearing its pelt.
(16:10):
There's no documented connectionbetween these traditions and pup
play as a practice, but they'recommonly mentioned in pup play lore.
While there are various storiesabout the actual origins of pup play,
including unverified accounts ofprisoners of war engaging in animal
roleplay, the most likely roots ofthe kink as we know it today are in
post World War II leather subculture.
(16:40):
See, after the war, queer servicemembers who'd grown up in rural,
intolerant American towns decidedto stay in the major cities where
they'd recently been stationed.
These individuals formed communities andcreated what are now some of the most
famous LGBTQ friendly regions in the U.
S. (16:56):
The Castro in San Francisco, Cherry Grove and Fire Island
Pines in New York, and a ton more.
This was also when motorcycleclubs began to spread.
Many former G.
I.
s started riding military surplusmotorcycles in their leather pilot jackets
and banding together for camaraderieand support after the horrors of war.
(17:18):
And gay G.
I.
s were no exception.
Lots of gay motorcycle groupssprang up around this time, too.
The combination of LGBTQ people,leather apparel, and the military
love of hierarchy gave birth tothe leather community and its
focus on dominance and submission.
And what's one of the lowest roles asubmissive can be forced to take on?
(17:40):
An animal.
A pet.
A dog.
That kind of animal slave play waskind of the extent of it for decades.
Amp Somers (17:49):
I think the cute, the fun, the more playful side kind of came out
of that when people realized oh, we'realready pretty free about what we're
doing, we're already getting into it, whynot just be a little more silly and fun?
Ashley (18:01):
According to Dr.
Wignall's research, the pup playcommunity as it is today didn't
get its start until the 2010s.
He traces it back to a pupin Chicago named Pup Brue.
Brue had been dressing up as a dogfor kink events since the early 1990s,
even though many people around himdidn't really get what he was doing.
In 2002, Brue attended International Mr.
(18:24):
Leather, or IML, a majorkink and leather conference.
Liam Wignall (18:29):
Kind of dressed as a pup.
They had a tail, they had theirkneepads and gloves, etc, and
they were just popping out.
They were just pretending to be a pup.
They were engaging in pup play, andthey saw somebody else, and it was
that moment of like, Oh, I'm not alone!
There's another one!
And they just kind of pupped out together.
I think one or two people joined themlike, oh my god, Let's meet next year,
(18:50):
and you're the first pup I've come across.
And it started to kind of spiral,and it just grew and grew and
grew, and then there startedto be pup play at other events.
Ashley (18:58):
By 2006, there were enough of them to rent a room at IML devoted to pub play.
And the rest is history.
Apparently.
Remember how I said the scientists andthe community differ on the origin story?
Yeah, Amp hadn't heardthis particular story.
But he's not saying it's not true.
Amp Somers (19:17):
Well, considering I've worked with Brue for many years, if this is the
same Brue I'm thinking of, um, I usedto work full time at a shop called Mr.
S Leather here in San Francisco.
They're definitely one of the largerretailers that sell kink and fetish goods.
Uh, Brue was the receivingmanager, so he would receive
and send out packages for Mr.
(19:38):
S.
And he's been in the community thelongest of many people that I know.
I'm not saying Brue wasn't the firstone, um, but I will say that the first
documented picture was from like the70s of a guy on a leash on all fours.
It was very much like a dog or slaveheadspace that people saw and I
think kind of ran with it themselves.
Like, that's my take on it islike, everyone has different ways
(20:01):
that they see animal role play,or just acting as an animal.
And I think some people leaned into itand were confident enough to play with it.
And I think that's whereit just got popular.
But I'll, I'm willing togive Brue that credit.
Ashley (20:18):
Yeah, I'm starting to, it's, it's easy to think about kink practices
as like tech devices or something.
Like someone had to invent it,but I think that's not how it is.
I think that you, you see things inyour life and they, they spark something
in you and you want to practice it.
And there's, it's not like you needsomeone to tell you how to do that.
(20:38):
Um, but then, If you see otherpeople who are like you, that's when,
you know, practices and, and, andterminology and stuff starts to pop up.
Amp Somers (20:47):
Yeah, community starts.
Ashley (20:49):
So however it happened, pup play is now a practice and a community
that appeals to a lot of people.
Those people are mostly gaymen, though not exclusively.
Amp Somers (20:59):
One of the top questions I get as an educator that's visible online,
because I put myself out there, is whyis it only for guys, or why is it only
for gay men, when in fact it's not.
They just, that community formed quicker,and it's now the most visible for some
people when they look into pet play.
Um, but there are tons of, not onlyfemale identified, but more femme title
(21:23):
holders, even non binary and transpeople that are part of that community
that help run those events behind thescenes that you don't see, maybe, but
they are absolutely vibing, existing.
Liam Wignall (21:33):
One of the really interesting things about pup play is,
you don't really need much to engagein it, and if you're focusing on
the social aspect of it, it doesn'tmatter what body you have or, or
what your sexual orientation is, etc.
So, I, uh, I've often seen at pubevents kind of a lot of trans people,
non binary people, queer people.
(21:54):
I also see a lot of different body types.
There isn't really a set typeof individual who engages
in pup play, you know.
It has that kind of real flexibilityand real, there can be a real
openness within the community todifferent people engaging in it.
Particularly, again, when you'refocusing on the social aspects.
If you're a pup kind of looking atsomebody in front of you, you just
see a pup in a hood on all fours.
(22:16):
You don't necessarily know what thegender or sexual orientation is.
Ashley (22:21):
So, here's the big question.
Why?
From the outside world, seeing someonedressed in what's essentially bondage gear
and acting like a dog is kind of strange.
What's the appeal of being a pup?
Amp Somers (22:34):
People can't understand why a bunch of grown adults want to
get on a pair of, like, wrestling matsand put on a costume, for lack of a
better term for some people, and wrestlearound, and bark, and play with toys.
People have a hard time understandingwhy you would want to do that.
But like, why do you go to the gym?
(22:55):
Why do you go to the golfing range?
Why do you hit some balls?
Like, you are doing an activity that isnot only fun and invigorating and gets
your juices flowing, but you're ableto get into a fun, silly headspace.
And when you break it down like that,they're like, oh okay, I get it.
I go to the gym.
I'm able to do that to like,for, for like, getting out of my
body, getting out of my stresses.
(23:16):
But you can do it in a fun mask, too?
Like, when you start to talk about it,people can wrap their mind around it.
But when you look at someone justbeing on all fours, barking and
acting silly, it's kind of weird.
And I'll be the first to say, it's weird.
And I don't mean that in a negative way.
Like, it's just weird.
Liam Wignall (23:31):
We don't often question why people engage in yoga
or running, because we just assumethat it's an enjoyable activity.
We assume, and we know that peopledescribe feeling better after it.
Um, for the why people want to dolike marathons and whatever is beyond
me because I'd just be exhausted.
So people describe kind of beingrelaxed at the end of yoga.
All those kind of things peoplehave described about pup play, that
they feel relaxed at the end of it.
(23:53):
One of my participants was stressed forupcoming exams, they put a pup hood on.
And there was something comfortingabout putting the hoods on and just
engaging in the activities thatthey felt a reduction in stress.
Ashley (24:03):
There's also a lot to be said for belonging to a community, one
where you can be yourself, or evenbe a different version of yourself.
Liam Wignall (24:11):
Pup play has allowed some people to have that kind of
pathway into a kink community, um,that attendant, playful events where
there's very minimal requirements ongear, if any, you know, one participant
said, you just need a mindset tobe a pup, you just need to kind of
jump in and act like a dog.
If you can do that, youknow, you're doing pup play.
(24:31):
So it provides people withaccess to, uh, to a community,
to, to an entire subculture.
And I think the final kind ofsocial aspect is, relates to an
identity that one can create.
And this isn't kind ofunique to, to pup play.
There's a whole bunch of differentleisure activities where people
create a unique identity.
(24:51):
But if one is particularly shy intheir everyday life, when they're
engaging in pup play, they couldthink to myself, Okay, I'm going
to be the loud, boisterous one.
I'm going to be the energetic one.
I'm going to see how peoplerespond in this safe environment.
I'm going to, I'm goingto be so fucking queer.
You wouldn't believe it.
I'm going to make sure thatI feel sexy in my body.
I'm going to do all this kind ofstuff and they're going to explore
(25:13):
different aspects of themselves.
And they might then adopt some ofthose things to their kind of everyday
identity, and then might be startingto be like emerging of the two.
It's a real unique opportunity tokind of play with one's identity.
Ashley (25:26):
Something that this has been reminding me of, and I feel
like maybe it's the wrong comparisonbecause of this headspace thing,
but it's, it's sounding like improv?
Amp Somers (25:35):
Oh yeah.
Ashley (25:36):
It is?
It's similar to that?
Amp Somers (25:37):
Improv and kink, or even just like a nerdy kind of like D& D.
If you, if you play D& D and you loveD& D, you'd be a great DM both in D&
D but also in an actual dungeon likea dungeon master because being able
to improv gives you so many skillsets of, Oh, I'm, I'm always hyper
(25:57):
vigilant and aware of what's happening.
Oh, this person's feeling this way orbody language looks like this and you're
able to kind of roll with the punches.
There is nothing that takes you out of ascene quicker than oops, or like someone
that doesn't know what to do next.
And improvisation is— I lovedWhose Line Is It Anyway as, as
a kid, like one of my faves.
Um, yeah, but you can tell whensomeone's like really good at like,
(26:19):
crafting the scene and even justrolling with the punches, even
if there's no punching involved.
Ashley (26:25):
Okay?
So getting on all fours and acting likea dog with other people is a way to have
fun, relax, get out of your head, try on anew identity and be a part of a community.
That makes sense.
But what about that is sexy?
Well, for one thing, the anonymitythat you get from putting on a pup
hood can be exciting in and of itself.
(26:45):
There's a freedom there that you mightnot get with people who know you in your
everyday life and a thrill of the unknown.
Anything could happen.
But pup play can also be a wayto pair more intimidating kink
activities with a little dose of fun.
Liam Wignall (27:07):
Pup play has a lot of different overlaps with other kink
activities, fondage, water sports.
fisting, flogging, pain, all thatkind of stuff, a whole bunch of
different activities that you canengage with alongside pup play.
And pup play, because of the natureof what it is, I've argued it provides
a route into kink that is potentiallyeasier for people compared to in the past.
(27:33):
So you can engage in certain kinkactivities and because you're
not within that kind of slavemindset, you're not in that.
submissive mindset where maybethere's kind of a focus on you
need to please the other person,you need to do as you're told.
If you're a pup and you don't likesomething, you can bark and crawl away.
And there's just kind of that differentmindset that the kink activities
(27:54):
that are occurring are done in apotentially playful environment because
of the, the association of pup play.
So it allows people to kind ofpotentially explore different kinks
and activities at an easier pace, asafer pace, with a different mindset.
Ashley (28:11):
When you think about pup play as a fun, more playful version of
other kink activities, it starts toseem really weird that someone might
see it as a uniquely sick and deviantfetish the way that Fox News does.
Like whips and chains are onething, but put on a cute puppy mask
when you do it and my goodness,someone think of the children.
(28:32):
But the fact is, they do see it thatway, which is one of the reasons the
anonymity of pup play is so important.
In light of that, I asked Ampabout the risks people face when
they engage in the community.
Amp Somers (28:44):
Well, they, first of all, they risk getting, um, a bunch of dog
brands emailing you every other dayasking to be sponsors of your dog podcast.
And that's probably, that's,that's a problem only for me.
Um, but I think
Ashley (28:58):
Like kibble and like stuff like that?
Amp Somers (29:00):
Dog food, dog toys, dog, like boxes of, of specific,
They
Ashley (29:04):
just like haven't done the research.
Amp Somers (29:06):
They don't.
Yeah.
And then when I, when I do respond, if Iever respond, they'll be like, Oh, sorry.
Um, but for the general population thatjoins the community, um, I think that
people do sometimes have that, like, thathesitation to get involved because they
don't want to be outed, they don't wanttheir employers seeing them in a dog mask.
(29:28):
And I think that that's a valid concernbecause the way that we have sex but also
kinks so sensationalized by the media,by politics, by our politicians who are
saying like, kids are using litter boxesin high schools, which was a proven,
like, made up thing that then politiciansran with, are trying to make bills now
(29:49):
where they can have animal control comeand reprimand children for just being
a furry like you do face that stigmaof people sensationalizing who you are
as a sexual person or not, and that's,that's, that's hard, that can be scary.
Ashley (30:07):
Amp knows.
Those members of the militarywho were outed on Twitter?
Those were his friends.
Amp Somers (30:13):
They got dragged by all of the right wing, you know, news,
by everyone online, where they hadto go private, like, they don't,
they don't exist online anymore.
They're still unabashedly themselvesand happy with who they are, but there
is a backlash sometimes because peopledon't understand why you would want
to get into that kind of headspace.
(30:34):
And it's not easy.
I wish people would understandthat we're all into something.
We all get the butterfliesfrom extracurricular.
quote unquote, not normal things.
And I wish we were all a littleless judgmental because of that.
Because whenever, whenever I see discourseonline, it's from a place of stigma or
(30:55):
shame that was put there by someone else.
Whether how you were raised, yourparents, your religion, politics
that you've been forced to consume,whether inadvertently or on purpose.
And those misconceptions start so manyfights that make people feel invalidated.
I just wish we all understood thatwe all come from a place that's
different, but doesn't make it scary.
Ashley (31:21):
Thanks for listening.
Huge thanks to Dr.
Liam Wignall and AmpSomers for talking to me.
You can buy Dr.
Wignall's book about gay men'ssubcultures online called Kinky in the
Digital Age on Oxford University Press.
There's a link in the show notes.
You can hear and see Amp on Watt's YourSafe Pod on your favorite podcast app,
Watt's the Safe Word on YouTube, andhis frequent live streams on Twitch.
(31:45):
And you can also find him on mostsocial apps under PupAmp, all one word.
Taboo Science is written andproduced by me, Ashley Hamer.
The theme song is by DannyLopatka of DLC Music.
Episode music is from Epidemic Sound.
I'm starting to think about extra episodesof the Philias miniseries, so if there's
(32:05):
a kink or fetish that I haven't coveredthat you want to hear about, let me know!
You can email me atashley@tabooscience.show.
The next episode is all about cuckolding.
Turns out the types of guys most likelyto call people cucks are the types of
guys most likely to be cucks themselves.
Who knew?
(32:25):
Hope you tune in next time.
I won't tell anyone.
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