September 9, 2022 • 43 mins
Lisa and Lauren talk with Barbara Vaughan about her experience using art to help people find their way back to themselves when their lost, feel their future has been pre-determined and dread it, or want to know why they feel what they feel and what they can do about it. If you are into psychology, art therapy, the healing power of art, positive transformation stories or are looking for a new way to engage with art or your clients, check it out.
Learn more about the Take an Art Break Movement on the Art is Moving website here.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Preparing yes.
Preparing.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Oh, it says relax.
The medias being livestreamed it.
Yeah, I got
Speaker 3 (00:06):
It too.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Hello, you did it.
You made it happen.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Yay.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
Few technical SNS, but we're good now.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
We're good.
We're great.
So, um, we're art moving.
We're here for our podcast.
And today we're talking toBarbara Vaughn.
I'm really excited to have achat with her.
I know Barbara from when I wasan undergrad, I worked for her
for something called teen artexplosion, and it was a very
amazing cutting edge program forkids that were kicked out of
(00:36):
every school.
And I loved it had less.
So Barbara tell the world aboutyourself and your passion for
art and, um, who you're.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
All right.
I'm Barbara Vaughn.
Um, I have a, um, bachelors anda master in psychology and a
master's in art therapy with anemphasis in counseling.
Um, I've been working with teensin an at risk world.
Mm-hmm for 20 plusyears since about 1999.
(01:10):
So, you know, getting closeanyway.
Mm-hmm um, so yeah,that's me in a nutshell, um, I
have always seen art.
Well, I'm an artist myself andart saved me through a very
difficult childhood at times.
So it just kind of made sensewhen I found the program that
(01:33):
was hiring for someone to run agrant funded program, um, that
was designed to use art in asubstance abuse, intervention
and prevention program withat-risk teens.
So I was like, well, that soundslike art and psychology.
So at the time I hadn't gottenmy master's in art therapy, but,
(01:56):
um, got the job and stayed withit for 10 plus years doing that.
And then I went into privatepractice doing consulting and,
um, transformational art groupswith different populations
around Northwest Arkansas.
And, um, then in 2009, Igraduated with my master's in
(02:17):
art therapy and counseling.
So
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Well, given all that experience, um, the question we
wanted to sort of walk aroundand discuss, dive deep into is,
um, can, uh, art save you whenyou're lost?
And my immediate answer is yes.
And so the follow up is how canart right?
(02:40):
Save you when you're lost.
And if you could give us someinsight into that, I have a
feeling you have some experiencewith that,
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Right?
Right.
Well, um, a lot of times youhave to figure out why they're
lost first, right?
What is the root of thatfeeling?
Are they lost?
Cuz they have no direction.
Are they lost because of trauma?
Are they lost because ofattachment problems with friends
and family?
Why are they lost?
(03:08):
Um, so off the top of my head,when I was thinking about this,
a story that came to mindimmediately, that kind of
portrays this, um, idea.
I was working with a group ofboys that were in a, um,
substance abuse treatmentfacility for eight to 10 months.
And I saw them twice a week, um,for two hours each, each week.
(03:31):
And always at the beginning of anew year, we don't work on
resolutions, but I do want tostart the conversation about
creating a vision for yourfuture, right?
And with these boys, becausethey came with probation
officers and charges back athome and foster care issues.
(03:54):
Um, it was sometimes hard forthem to create a vision for
their future mm-hmm.
And um, so the first time Iintroduced this, after some
introductory processing, I justhad him create an image, just
any kind of composition thatkind of shows something you want
for your future.
(04:15):
And this one boy, sit there withhis arms crossed, refused to do
it, shut down, completely didn'twanna talk about it at all.
Um, at that time there was asocial worker that came with
them to my art studio, where wedid the groups and she finally
convinced him, said, why don'tyou tell Ms.
(04:37):
Barbara what's going on?
And he finally shared with methat even though he was going to
be successfully completing theprogram, he had just found out
that he was going to be chargedanyway, as an adult with a
felony when he got home.
Wow.
So his future did not, it wasn'tsomething he wanted to talk
(04:58):
about.
So I shared my story as a cancersurvivor and I said, if anyone
knows mm-hmm, whatit's like to be really scared
about the future.
I get it.
So, um, eventually he, uh, didcreate a composition and his
first drawing showed his fistsin handcuffs.
(05:20):
That was it.
That was his future.
So the next time they came back,I had taught them boutique with
the dye and the wax on fabric.
And, um, the idea was to putyour composition now on fabric
diet.
And we were going to turn itinto a pillow.
(05:40):
His finished piece had black andwhite bars across the bottom
with barbed wire, but in this,the gate was open and there was
a trail leading out of it up ahill to a house with a swing set
and a tree and the sun in thebackground.
(06:03):
Hmm.
So he was recognizing that yes,prison was an op was a
possibility, but there wassomething beyond that.
Mm-hmm so this wasmajor fast forward a couple of
months.
And he actually got a job at ourlocal food bank and worked so
(06:24):
hard there and was such a goodworker when he got released from
the program and actually went tocourt.
The other people that workedwith him at the food bank came
down and advocated for him.
He did not go to jail.
Wow.
He got probation, but he did notgo to jail.
(06:45):
Wow.
So that's an example of oneteenage boy that was very lost
initially.
Mm-hmm I love that.
And in the end through art, hediscovered something else.
Now the magic of what we didthere was turning the boutique
compositions into pillows.
(07:06):
Think about him, snuggling upwith that pillow, his vision
every night.
Yeah.
So there's definitely apsychological impact to that.
So
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Powerful story.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
I know that's one of my favorites I
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Love it.
It's like Bravo, you know what Imean?
You really transformedsomebody's lives through art.
And just thinking of that, howdo you think art does help
people?
I mean, it helps anybody.
I, cause I feel everybody's anartist.
I think we all do on this panel,but how do you think art does
help you find the way?
Speaker 3 (07:44):
Well, you know, there are all kinds of psychological
studies and, and biologicalstudies that show the, um, power
of art to relieve stress, tocalm someone down, to help them
escape from, you know, thosethoughts, those intruding
(08:04):
negative thoughts.
And just, just that when you arestressed out, if you can doodle
for 10 minutes, you're going tofeel better.
There's something powerful justabout that process.
Um, so if you're able to bebrave enough to actually pick up
(08:26):
a paintbrush or a pencil ormarkers or whatever it is and
use it, you're going to find outsomething about yourself that
maybe you didn't know.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Yeah.
That's what I was thinking aboutabout when you, when I initially
asked the question, you said,first, you need to know why
you're lost mm-hmmand I feel like art is your
answer for that.
Art is your answer for figuringout the why to kind of all of
your questions about youryourself, um, and your own
emotions and things like that,because it does, it can show you
(09:01):
what your other part of yourbrain, um, is sort of protecting
you from.
Exactly.
I also think looking even justlooking at art can do that.
I think every person that'sallowed themselves to be open to
an experience of going to an artgallery or a museum or public
art, or what have you,performance, um, has been
(09:25):
changed by that experience andhas had, has, has a story to
share about a work of art thathit them in a way that they were
not expecting mm-hmm.
And I think that that's what'shappening is that it's opening a
part of you mm-hmmthat maybe you've been
protecting yourself from, orhiding yourself from, uh, for a
while.
(09:45):
Uh, because a lot of it is fear,right?
Mm-hmm um, and thatthat's the power of art.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Well, you know, we are born and especially learn as
we grow a resistance factor inour brain, a counter arguing, we
, um, there's resistance to selfreflect.
There's a resistance to talkingabout things that are meaningful
(10:12):
to us.
So aren't actually bypasses thatpart of the brain and taps into
something much more organic thatyou can't argue with.
It just comes out right.
It, it, it just comes out.
You weren't intending to, butthere it is.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I'm constantly thinking, wewe're constantly talking about
that.
Like when people areapprehensive of making art,
that's probably, even thoughthey might not understand that
that's one of the reasons,right.
A lot of people say, well, I'mnot an artist I can't draw.
Um, and then when you, when youanswer to that and you're like,
(10:53):
well, that's not the part thatmatters.
And if they can get beyond that,there's another hurdle.
It's the hurdle of actually,well, I'm kind of scared of what
I might create.
I'm kind of scared of whatmyself might wanna tell myself
right now.
And maybe I'm not ready forthat.
Mm-hmm um, what doyou say to someone like that
when they're not necessarily,uh, ready to almost face their
(11:14):
own demons?
Have you ever encountered thatin your work?
Speaker 3 (11:17):
Yeah, when I was in graduate school, we had to, um,
find someone in the communityand do individual art therapy
with them.
And specifically this one taskcalled the diagnostic drawing
series.
And, um, it's a series of threepictures.
And then you process and I had aseminary student that was, um,
(11:39):
looking at graduation in thefollowing year.
And in our conversation, Ihappened to make an observation
just strictly about his picture.
And he shut down, said, wait aminute, I didn't bargain for
this.
And he got up and he left theroom.
(12:01):
Oh, wow.
Right, right.
Yeah.
And I went back to my classgoing, I don't know what I did
wrong, you know?
Oh my God.
Well, he came back cuz we had tomeet with them for three
sessions and he came back forthe third session and he says,
okay, I apologize for that.
But it touched something that Ihad to really go home and
(12:25):
reflect on.
And he said, I don't wanna talkabout it.
But I did go to my supervisor inmy seminary school and we
processed it.
And I want to thank you forhelping me identify an issue
that I didn't know was there.
Wow.
Right.
Wow.
So yeah, that, that resistance,um, is pretty magical.
(12:48):
And that, that inner critic thatwe develop, you know, we develop
it, um, developmentally aboutthe second or third grade, we
start getting that inner criticand it serves two purposes.
One of the purposes is toprotect us.
(13:09):
Mm-hmm it, it keepsus from doing things that are
going to make other people laughat us or other people think
poorly of us.
Mm-hmm but it alsorestricts if we give it too much
power, it restricts us from everactually trying things that
might be beneficial.
Art, you know, is one of thosethings.
(13:31):
So when you see someone that'slike really resistance is I
can't draw, I don't do that.
Okay.
Just scribble, just scribble.
Everyone will scribble, youknow, but it's really funny when
you see people try and scribblethat are that resistance.
It always has a pattern andthat's not scribbling.
(13:53):
So put the marker in the otherhand and let's try again, you
know, so you have to be reallypatient until the scribbling
actually starts to open them upand they start to relax.
Um, then, then stuff can reallycome out.
The conversations can reallystart.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
I love I'm finding, I'd like the idea of this
resistance.
I, when does that, when doesthat start in your it's a
condition thing?
When does that start in our
Speaker 3 (14:21):
D well, it starts about the time that your inner
critic starts.
Okay.
Um, so the inner critic startsbetween, uh, second and third
grade, but by the time you getsixth grade and then especially
into those junior high years,when peer pressure is such a big
thing, mm-hmm,,that's when resistance can
(14:41):
either come in and plant itsroots.
Mm-hmm, you know,because again, that peer
pressure we wanna blend in, wewanna get along, um, people that
get stuck, there are those thatsay, I can't draw.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
People that, you know, are able to counter argue
that resistance and try newthings.
Anyway, those are the ones thatare much more open to different
kinds of therapies and differentkinds of interventions.
So
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Yeah, I can, I can see that.
Yeah.
I was talking with someone about, um, sort of our take in our
break movement and, and how, uh,what resistance we've
encountered and sort of ourresponses to that.
And I was thinking of, I wassaying to them that I it's the
gist about finding that thingthat works for you mm-hmm
(15:30):
, but it's reallyabout the fact that it is kind
of all inherently in us.
And I think we just hide it fromourselves and the rest of the
world.
And I was thinking about my ownchildren who don't like sit
still.
And if there's music, especiallyif there's music, I mean, they
just don't sit still at all.
But if you turn music on, it'slike a full out party in our
(15:53):
house.
And I, I have that kind of bodytoo, where if there's music, I,
I will be singing or I will bedancing or at least be tapping
my foot.
There's no way I can.
It's almost like I can't controlit.
And I was saying to this person,I actually think that most
people are like that.
It's just that the older youget, the more nervous you get
(16:13):
about like kind of peoplelooking at you.
Like you're a weirdo,mm-hmm you can't,
if you're like singing to a songor dancing, when you hear music
or moving your body in a waythat doesn't seem quote unquote
normal.
Like if you're, I don't know.
I just think of someone in likea clothing store, right.
There's music playing.
I kind of go to another worldand you know, and I, I can you
(16:37):
don't so like, how do you dothat in a world?
That's like constantly tellingpeople that they need to, to
blend in mm-hmmbecause most of group settings
in children's lives are actuallytelling them to blend in for
management purposes.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Right, right,
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Right.
What do you, how do you, how doyou compensate for that?
Or what do you do, um, to, well,
Speaker 3 (17:05):
It's interesting.
I see this manifest in clientsthat have some kind of social
phobia.
So they hate going to thegrocery store because they're
terrified.
People are looking at them allthe time.
Mm-hmm.
And so, you know, it generallystarts with, okay, set your
watch a minute.
When, after you've gotten inthere, I want you to stop what
(17:27):
you're doing.
And then just do a 360 lookaround how many people are
actually looking at you.
You know, no one is now, right.
We have five minutes now try,you know, because they grew up
either really, really shelteredwhere someone was constantly
taking away choices because theywanted them to do it.
(17:49):
Right.
Well, you didn't do that.
Right.
You didn't make your bed.
Right.
So mom's gonna make it for youtoday.
You know, watch again,eventually that, that hinders,
you know, that, that shuts off aperson's ability to believe they
can do anything.
Right.
So now they start becoming veryself critical and they believe
(18:13):
everyone is staring at thembecause they just are who they
are.
Right.
They look where these are thenegative messages we tell
ourselves, especially whenyou're in a state of phobia like
that.
And, um, one of my clients, Ihad him do that.
Exactly what I just said, go tothe grocery store.
And when you start feelinganxious, I want you to stop and
(18:36):
just turn slowly around and lookat the people around you and
notice is anyone looking at you?
Right.
You know, and within a few weeksof doing this, he was able to go
to the grocery store, buyhimself, you know?
So, um, it really is a, aprocess of retraining the brain
(18:56):
at that point to identify newmessaging, you know, to feed it,
new messages that say, youreally can do this.
Um, yeah.
So at the other way, people getlike that is if they have no
safety in their childhood.
So, you know, there's, theylearn to be very, especially you
(19:20):
see this in abuse, um, eitherphysical or emotional abuse in
that they're so scared they'regoing to set someone off that
they don't do anything.
Right, right.
Completely shut down.
So, um, those are the types ofpeople.
When you see that person whosays, I can't draw, I won't even
(19:42):
pick up a pen to, to scribble,you know, then, you know, right
there that something from theirchildhood has created this
problem.
So we need to back up and dosome more talking until we can
create a safe space.
Mm-hmm for them toshare whatever that is.
So right.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Do you have any suggestions of like, not, you
know, like, um, I'm sure you'veencountered this in your work as
well when people say, well, I'mnot even gonna do that because I
can't draw.
Is there another suggestion thatyou say we're like, well, okay.
Let's um, let's listen to music.
Let's go.
Um, absolutely like take, youknow, look at the trees or the
(20:23):
sky and things like that.
Are there things that people cando to, to get a little bit, one
step closer to that?
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Well, if it's a client in session with me, I
say, okay, that's fine.
We don't have to do any of that.
Do you like looking atmagazines?
I've got some magazines.
Can you find three picturesthat, tell me just a little
about who you are.
Mm-hmm everyone canfind three pictures.
That's nonthreatening, you know?
Well, I like dogs.
Well, I like hamburgers.
You know, this is what kids giveyou, you know, teen giving.
(20:50):
I like dogs.
I like hamburgers.
I like makeup, you know, mm-hmm okay, great.
What is it you like about those?
And that's how you start theconversation to begin creating
that safe space.
So, um, you know, that fearcomes from childhood and as
adults, if they come to us, thenthat means they're they know
(21:14):
they have a problem.
And it's just a matter of beingflexible, which we, as artists
are flexible, we it'sbeing flexible and just kind of
reading them, feeling them out.
And sometimes it's just, can youhere, here's some silly putty
play with silly putty while wetalk, play with some Play-Doh
(21:36):
while we talk, you know, thosekind of things, just help them
start getting used to the ideaof using their hands with you.
Yeah.
They don't realize that's whatyou're doing, but you're getting
them used to the idea of usingtheir hands while they're
talking.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
So what I'm hearing is, um, resistance comes from
trauma in your childhood.
Mm-hmm, that's whatthat's kinda that trigger.
And then yeah.
Is that kind of that?
And then, and then when you're,if you can get people to start
using their hands and they tastea little freedom, then they can
retrain their brain to be like,oh, I'm I can be happy.
I don't have to be so Idon't have to be in this jacket.
(22:14):
You know what I mean?
This great jacket of resistance.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
Yeah.
You know, it's, it is some formof trauma.
A lot of people wouldn'tidentify it as that.
I had a great childhood.
My mom did everything for me,you know?
So that's why you're 27.
And you still take your laundryhome to mom.
(22:39):
Right.
so, okay.
Let's talk about that.
Let's see if we can get you todo that.
Um, simple things, but theywon't identify it as trauma.
So again, you're right.
Using the expressive therapies,continuum, identify six levels
(23:00):
of brain processing, and thereare different mediums you can
use to change the level ofprocessing in your brain.
So anytime you're using yourhands, you're more in that
kinesthetic, you know?
And so that tends to open peopleup.
If that's why people, a lot oftimes, if you're walking, they
(23:21):
will talk.
If you're driving somewhere.
That was when I had the greatestconversations with my kids, cuz
they weren't walking at me, butwe were going somewhere.
We were using our bodies, youknow, breaking leaves worked the
same way.
Doing something allows you toaccess a different part of your
brain.
Mm-hmm becauseyou've turned off that
resistance by opening the doorthrough the kinesthetic motion.
(23:45):
Does that make sense at all?
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Oh yeah.
That makes total sense.
Um, I think that it's like wesee that all the time when we
have people taking art breaks ata table together that I've never
met before.
Mm-hmm and the, thedepth of the conversation, the
seriousness of the conversationand how quickly it gets there,
um, is always sort of, sort ofincredible, you know?
(24:08):
Uh, and, and I think it's, it'sthat it's like even the, the act
of not having to look up atsomeone while you're saying
something right, exactly.
Right.
If you're just doodling at atable at a table and you just
kind of say something it's,you've removed that, um, that
barrier of fear almost right?
Like that eye contact can beintimidating for people.
(24:30):
Right.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
The heart break too.
You've got someone there doingthe same activity.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Yeah.
So
Speaker 3 (24:36):
I always find the resistance is a little bit
easier to bypass in groups.
Mm-hmm than it isone on one, because again, then
peer pressure starts happening.
That's why in a group, I givethe directive, you know, people
that want to start the otherpeople sit there and watch I'm
(24:57):
always doing it with them, youknow, and then going over and
helping this person are makingsuggestions, answering
questions.
Mm-hmm but it'sthat sharing of the creative
spirit that allows people thento go, okay, I'm gonna try this.
I'm gonna do something, youknow, instead of sit here for
two hours.
So, um, in an art break day kindof thing, you've got that peer
(25:23):
pressure quote, unquote mm-hmm let's do this and
I've sat down at the table and Idon't wanna look like an idiot.
So that's where the inner criticplays in your favor.
You know what I mean?
I don't wanna look like an idiotand if I'm sitting here and not
doing it and everyone else is
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Yeah, yeah.
It's like positive, positivepeer pressure or something,
right?
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
It's positive punishment clearly, you know?
Right.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
I loved, I, I, when we were at art break day all the
time, I always thought it waslike, I just cause people's
heads were down and it was, theywould always talk, like you
said, really deep.
And like, they were best friendsby the end of the conversation
and they hang out for like anhour or two hours.
But my, my degree was alwayscause the head was down.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
I, I do.
I think that has something to dowith it.
You know, I also have noticedwith my own children and I've
had to sort of step back as amom because they do stuff when
I'm talking to them about somethings.
And I have had to allow myselfto allow them to do that because
it actually, it almost helpsthem process more and it also
(26:32):
helps them open up more, youknow, because at first I'm like,
can you please look at me when Italk to you?
right.
But then I, I started to realizelike, I, I, they, it's probably
in, I'm probably intimidatingthem a little bit.
Mm-hmm and they'realso processing just so learning
how my own children's brainswork and relating it to like how
my brain works and my husband'sbrain works.
(26:52):
Of course they can't do onething at a time.
When am I ever doing one thingat a time?
That's not how my brain works.
It's definitely.
So they've inherited that.
And so for them to even just beflipping their fingers through a
book pages or to be looking downat a book
Speaker 3 (27:08):
Mm-hmm
Speaker 2 (27:09):
, they
can talk to me more.
And so it is, it's reallyinteresting, this like idea of
how to, how people have moreconversations.
It's almost like maybeconversations don't need to be
had the way that we expect themto be had.
Maybe they're stronger when weallow people to feel less
(27:30):
intimidated, um, by aconversation because for some
people talk, speaking of likethose phobias and all of this
stuff that we carry with us,mm-hmm um, maybe a
conversation is terrifying.
And so maybe it's better to justfind that sort of that flow.
(27:51):
And I do.
I think that art is a reallygood way.
Once you can get past the, thefear of art and you can sit down
and do a true scribble doodlewith someone, um, you'll leave
feeling more connected, um, withyourself, with them and probably
have like solved some sort ofproblem or realized that it's
(28:14):
not as scary as maybe youthought it would be, you know,
right.
To have a conversation and tomake art.
Right.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
Exactly.
Exactly.
You know, that's why the eyecontact unfortunately, has been
socialized to mean you're introuble.
Think about it in the classroom.
You know, teachers are like,Jason, you're not looking at me.
I'm trying to say
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Something
Speaker 3 (28:37):
Right.
Or parents oftentimes, like yousaid, look at me when I talk to
you.
Right?
Speaker 2 (28:42):
So
Speaker 3 (28:42):
There's an automatic social conditioning that says,
if I am looking someone in theeye, I must be in trouble.
So, so to protect ourselves,it's easier to talk when we
don't look at someone else.
So, you know, if you havesomeone that just sits there and
(29:03):
doesn't look at you and doesn'tdo anything, that's more of a
challenge.
If you have someone that doesn'tlook at you, but is doing
something physically, are theyjust bouncing their foot?
Are they, you know, playing witha pin?
Are they playing with theirhair?
Right.
Get them doing something.
(29:24):
You know, I know myself, when Itake classes, I had a, a doodle
journal.
Mm-hmm I had mynotebook that I took notes in,
but I also had a doodle journalwhen I was listening.
When I went to the peace Corps,I did Zen tangles all the time
during training.
And initially the Thaiinstructors were very put off by
(29:45):
that.
They thought I was beingdisrespectful.
Right.
Until they would start askingquestions and I could answer
whatever it was, they threw atme.
And they're like, we figured outthat's the way you listen.
Right?
Yeah.
I don't listen if I'm justsitting there looking at you.
I don't listen at all.
That's just me.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Yeah.
I mean, I think there's studysaying draw when a lecture or in
class, you actually retain moreinformation.
Mm-hmm on the otherhand, I thought of that looking
at you is that authority figurethat's that, you know, it's
could be just, just theauthority.
Could it be the government?
It could be whatever, you knowwhat I mean?
Exactly.
Whatever that, you know, makesus shaken our boots.
(30:26):
And the other thing that I wannacircle back at, I love that you
said when people create togetheror when they start creating,
they're sharing their creativespirit mm-hmm.
Um, and, and I think when peoplestart sharing it, that's, that's
when they, you know, that's whenthings start really changing and
transforming.
Cause what I love at our breakday, you know, people talk and
(30:47):
they, you know, like get reallydeep in conversation, but they
always leave their art with us.
Mm-hmm so theywanna share the creative spirit
with the world cuz they like tosee it all hung up.
So that's full circle, likesharing the creative spirit.
How does that feel?
What does that do and how caneverybody experience it?
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Yeah, I think, I think right to think about this,
the question, you know, can artsave you when you're lost?
How can art save you?
You know, how does it do that?
Right.
And I think that, I mean,obviously art can do so many
things.
That's hard to wrap up.
Um, but I think that it, itdoes, it, it almost brings you
(31:29):
more into the conversation andthen when you're more into the
conversation, you're moreconnected.
Mm-hmm, you know,and I think that, um, when
you're feeling lost, when you'refeeling as though the ground is
sort of separating underneathyou or you're feeling
overwhelmed or you feel asthough you have no future mm-hmm
(31:51):
right.
I think that when you sort ofmake art about it, have you made
art about that today?
Right.
Um, you can maybe discover thatpart of you that's maybe holding
you back or facing that fear ofthat future that you feel is
planned out for you mm-hmm um, and then maybe
(32:13):
make that shift.
Right.
You imagine that story that youtold at the beginning of the
conversation and had that personnot made art about it mm-hmm
um, they would've,they would've basically shackled
themselves into that future thathad been essentially made for
them.
Mm-hmm I mean, ittakes a lot of courage to face
(32:34):
that kind of future.
Right.
But by doing that, they
Speaker 3 (32:39):
Changed it, which I think is so incredible.
Right.
Right.
Well, just creating a vision forsomething you want for yourself,
just that simple fact can changeyour future.
Um, imagine going on a road tripand not having a map or
directions, what are you gonnado?
(32:59):
You're gonna go around incircles, you know, imagine
putting a jigsaw puzzletogether.
That is perfectly blank.
That has no picture on it.
How much more difficult is it todo that than it is when you have
pictures to go by.
So, um, you need some kind ofimage that you're working toward
(33:20):
in order to make the journey alittle easier, make the puzzle
come together a little faster,you know?
Yeah.
So, um, yeah, those thingsyou're gonna get lost.
If you don't have a vision foryour future, you're just gonna
do it.
You're gonna be at the mercy ofthe current of the stream and
you're gonna get thrown on theshores.
(33:41):
I talk in metaphors.
I apologize.
that's OK.
That's right up.
That's right up my alley.
Yeah.
So
Speaker 1 (33:49):
Can you, um, cause I love this idea of creating a
vision.
We all need to create visions.
Can you just give people thatare listening, um, an easy way
to create their vision for, for2023, just kind of like an
activity
Speaker 3 (34:04):
Mm-hmm
well, you know, you can Google
vision boards.
That's what a lot of people do.
Mm-hmm is create avision board and it's just a on
the front end, it looks likejust a collection of random
objects that are speaking toyou.
But when you stop and, and pull'em together and kinda lay it
all out together, you startseeing patterns, you know, these
(34:25):
are trips I wanna take.
These are words that I wannafeel.
These are people, you know, Iwanna be more connected to
people that can have a whole lotof different meanings.
Um, once you do it and it's justseriously, it's going through
magazines, going through yourdrawers, walking around, you
(34:47):
know, looking through your junkboxes, you know, and finding
things that you're drawn to, forwhatever reason, you don't have
to know why just it, you pick itup and it feels good.
So you put it in your pile andeventually you start seeing
these patterns emerge that helpyou identify where it is you
wanna go for the next year.
(35:08):
You know, it can be as simple asthat.
Um, and you can get all kinds ofideas just looking on Pinterest
or, or Googling, just visionboards.
You'll see.
'em everywhere.
Um, with people, yeah.
With people that are, you know,really resistant magazine,
(35:29):
collage is the easiest thing todo.
It's just, you know, find somemagazines, go through'em and
tear out or cut out pictures andwords that you like and then put
it together and see what it saysto you.
So, um, there's, for somereason, those magazine collages
are the least threatening thing.
(35:49):
Yeah.
That a person can do, but theycan have some of the most
powerful meaning and impact onceyou start processing them later.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
And then,
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Oh, just one, one.
Cause you kept on saying,recognizing the patterns.
What if people dunno how to do
Speaker 3 (36:04):
That's OK.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
That's
Speaker 2 (36:06):
OK.
that's OK.
I know.
I, I, yeah.
That's okay.
I, I like the idea of thisactivity that you said, which is
you, when you were talking about, uh, grab it because it makes
you feel good.
Like what if you like, even ifsomeone had no magazines, no,
uh, way of taking photographs orwhatever, if you just did that
(36:27):
for a day, did that for an hour?
Just notice what makes you feelgood?
Just notice what makes you feelgood?
And, and you could even eitherjust make a mental note of that
or jot it down mm-hmm and then I feel
like for people who are like, Ihave no idea how to recognize
those patterns.
Right?
Show it to someone get braveenough and show it to someone
(36:49):
else because I've done thatbefore, which is like, I can't
figure this out.
Why do I keep doing this?
You know, you can you just tell,you know, give me your, give me
your insights.
Right?
Give it to someone else or, orcome back to it later.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
Right.
You know, a lot of people say, Idon't, I don't see any patterns.
Okay.
Just put it on your wall.
Mm-hmm just put iton your wall or put it on your
refrigerator, walk by it everyday and take a look at it.
Eventually something's going toclick mm-hmm but
you made a good point.
Lauren, if you don't havemagazines, you don't have
pictures, go for a walk and pickup things, rocks, leave sticks.
(37:32):
And if it makes you feelsomething, bring it in, you
know?
Yeah.
If it makes you feel negative,toss it away.
Mm-hmm.
But if it makes you feelsomething, either ambivalent or
feel good, bring it in.
Yeah.
Because chances are you pickedit up for a reason.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
Yeah.
I like that.
I like the like, I mean, that'sa great self-awareness exercise.
It's it's it's making you feelgood for a reason.
It's making you feel bad for areason.
And like, let's elaborate onthat.
Yeah.
I like that
Speaker 3 (38:02):
You were talking earlier about going to art
galleries.
And I used to take my, the teensin my programs to an art
gallery, or we would have an artshow ourselves of their work.
And you know, it was reallyfunny because teens are gonna go
look at some abstract fees andgo, I can do that.
You know, that's not good art.
(38:23):
Why is it hanging up here?
What does it make you feel?
Well, I think it's hideous.
Okay.
Why, why, why do you think itmakes, why do you think it's
hideous?
What is it about it?
Is it it, because it's toosimple and you're kicking
yourself because you could havedone that, but you never thought
about it.
Well, let's go back and try, youknow?
(38:45):
So if it makes you feelsomething it's good art, I don't
care what it looks like.
If it makes you feel somethingit's good art.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
Yeah.
I'm, I'm all about how art makesyou feel.
Yeah, I'm all.
Speaker 3 (38:59):
I had a kid in our, um, after school program that
Lisa taught in.
This was one in a differentschool.
Um, that one day I came in and Isaid, we're making bad art
today.
We're making bad art.
And so, you know, his normalthing was skulls, suicides,
blood, you know, and he startsdoing all of that again.
(39:21):
And I went, no, that's your goodart.
I wanna say bad art.
And this is a kid with a Mohawkpiercings tattoos, you know, the
whole thing.
He starts making rainbows andbutterflies flowers and it was
hysterical.
And then when we process aboutwhy he did chose that as bad art
(39:44):
, well, because it's pretty andI don't do pretty.
So what is it about pretty thatmakes you feel bad, you know?
So you start asking those followup questions that makes them
start thinking, but it was sofunny to see him suddenly making
rainbows and butterflies andflowers.
that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Opposite opposite day .
Wow.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
This conversation gone forever.
It's almost like it's almostlike art makes you feel, and
then you kind unwind that youhave to have the courage to go.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
Yeah, I think right.
I think it's the, like, um,there's a, it's a very multiple
step process and you can makethe choice how deep you wanna
go, you know, because it's, it'sgreat to open, open yourself up
simply by taking an art break,you can just reduce stress by
(40:37):
taking an art break, but youcould also look back at that art
, um, and figure out why you'restressed and you know, and you
can have that conversation withyour art and with yourself.
Um, even if, kind of, you don't
Speaker 3 (40:54):
Know, even if you don't know why though.
Cause the same person that saysI can't draw is going to say,
well, that's ugly.
Why?
I don't know.
It just is right.
You hear that all the time.
Mm-hmm why are theyleaving their artwork with you?
It might be to share theircreative spirit or it might be
because they don't wanna look atwhy they made that.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
Yeah.
That's I think that's a really,really good point.
Yes.
Yes.
Speaker 3 (41:19):
Why is just as scary as picking up that pencil and
doodling?
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Why
Speaker 3 (41:24):
Is
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Scary?
The why?
I think the, why is scarier, youknow, to be honest, I think that
, um, I think a lot of peopleare like, okay, they, they will
succumb to the peer pressure.
I'm thinking of our events andthey'll, they'll find they'll do
it.
And then, um, and then they'll,then they won't do the, they
don't wanna do the rest of it.
(41:45):
Right.
Because that's the that's evenscarier.
Mm-hmm, that's the,that's when the that's when the
real work comes in.
Um, but you have to, you reallydo.
You have to be willing to, um,talk about all of it.
And, and a lot of people don'twanna have like a full
(42:05):
conversation.
They wanna have like a quarterof a conversation
but it's a really good start.
It's a really good start.
And maybe you'll have thatconversation in private.
Maybe you'll leave that artthere, but maybe you'll pick up
a sketchbook and you'll, andyou'll start writing in it or,
or doodling in it.
And then you can slowly havethat conversation with yourself.
(42:26):
It's better than not having thatconversation at all.
You know, it's
Speaker 3 (42:29):
Just like that guy that walked out of his session
with me because he wasn't readyto go the why, the why and why,
you know, but it caused them tothink, you know, and so they may
leave their artwork with you,but they're gonna think about
it, you know, they're gonnathink about what they made and
maybe they'll learn something.
(42:50):
Maybe they won't, but they'regonna think about it.
And those that have the strengthto think are the ones that have
the strength to discover the why
Speaker 2 (43:03):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm yeah.
Awesome.
Wow.
Yeah.
I could talk to you all dayabout this.
Um, thank you.
Thank you so much for taking thetime.
I really appreciate it.
And thanks.
Um, yeah, I love what you do our
Speaker 3 (43:15):
Convers conversation.
Thanks guys.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
Let's see.
How do I get off stuff?
Live screen.
Preparing yes.
Preparing.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Oh, it says relax.
The medias being livestreamed it.
Yeah, I got
Speaker 3 (00:06):
It too.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Hello, you did it.
You made it happen.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Yay.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
Few technical SNS, but we're good now.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
We're good.
We're great.
So, um, we're art moving.
We're here for our podcast.
And today we're talking toBarbara Vaughn.
I'm really excited to have achat with her.
I know Barbara from when I wasan undergrad, I worked for her
for something called teen artexplosion, and it was a very
amazing cutting edge program forkids that were kicked out of
(00:36):
every school.
And I loved it had less.
So Barbara tell the world aboutyourself and your passion for
art and, um, who you're.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
All right.
I'm Barbara Vaughn.
Um, I have a, um, bachelors anda master in psychology and a
master's in art therapy with anemphasis in counseling.
Um, I've been working with teensin an at risk world.
Mm-hmm
(01:10):
So, you know, getting closeanyway.
Mm-hmm
have always seen art.
Well, I'm an artist myself andart saved me through a very
difficult childhood at times.
So it just kind of made sensewhen I found the program that
(01:33):
was hiring for someone to run agrant funded program, um, that
was designed to use art in asubstance abuse, intervention
and prevention program withat-risk teens.
So I was like, well, that soundslike art and psychology.
So at the time I hadn't gottenmy master's in art therapy, but,
(01:56):
um, got the job and stayed withit for 10 plus years doing that.
And then I went into privatepractice doing consulting and,
um, transformational art groupswith different populations
around Northwest Arkansas.
And, um, then in 2009, Igraduated with my master's in
(02:17):
art therapy and counseling.
So
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Well, given all that experience, um, the question we
wanted to sort of walk aroundand discuss, dive deep into is,
um, can, uh, art save you whenyou're lost?
And my immediate answer is yes.
And so the follow up is how canart right?
(02:40):
Save you when you're lost.
And if you could give us someinsight into that, I have a
feeling you have some experiencewith that,
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Right?
Right.
Well, um, a lot of times youhave to figure out why they're
lost first, right?
What is the root of thatfeeling?
Are they lost?
Cuz they have no direction.
Are they lost because of trauma?
Are they lost because ofattachment problems with friends
and family?
Why are they lost?
(03:08):
Um, so off the top of my head,when I was thinking about this,
a story that came to mindimmediately, that kind of
portrays this, um, idea.
I was working with a group ofboys that were in a, um,
substance abuse treatmentfacility for eight to 10 months.
And I saw them twice a week, um,for two hours each, each week.
(03:31):
And always at the beginning of anew year, we don't work on
resolutions, but I do want tostart the conversation about
creating a vision for yourfuture, right?
And with these boys, becausethey came with probation
officers and charges back athome and foster care issues.
(03:54):
Um, it was sometimes hard forthem to create a vision for
their future mm-hmm
And um, so the first time Iintroduced this, after some
introductory processing, I justhad him create an image, just
any kind of composition thatkind of shows something you want
for your future.
(04:15):
And this one boy, sit there withhis arms crossed, refused to do
it, shut down, completely didn'twanna talk about it at all.
Um, at that time there was asocial worker that came with
them to my art studio, where wedid the groups and she finally
convinced him, said, why don'tyou tell Ms.
(04:37):
Barbara what's going on?
And he finally shared with methat even though he was going to
be successfully completing theprogram, he had just found out
that he was going to be chargedanyway, as an adult with a
felony when he got home.
Wow.
So his future did not, it wasn'tsomething he wanted to talk
(04:58):
about.
So I shared my story as a cancersurvivor and I said, if anyone
knows mm-hmm,
about the future.
I get it.
So, um, eventually he, uh, didcreate a composition and his
first drawing showed his fistsin handcuffs.
(05:20):
That was it.
That was his future.
So the next time they came back,I had taught them boutique with
the dye and the wax on fabric.
And, um, the idea was to putyour composition now on fabric
diet.
And we were going to turn itinto a pillow.
(05:40):
His finished piece had black andwhite bars across the bottom
with barbed wire, but in this,the gate was open and there was
a trail leading out of it up ahill to a house with a swing set
and a tree and the sun in thebackground.
(06:03):
Hmm.
So he was recognizing that yes,prison was an op was a
possibility, but there wassomething beyond that.
Mm-hmm
months.
And he actually got a job at ourlocal food bank and worked so
(06:24):
hard there and was such a goodworker when he got released from
the program and actually went tocourt.
The other people that workedwith him at the food bank came
down and advocated for him.
He did not go to jail.
Wow.
He got probation, but he did notgo to jail.
(06:45):
Wow.
So that's an example of oneteenage boy that was very lost
initially.
Mm-hmm
And in the end through art, hediscovered something else.
Now the magic of what we didthere was turning the boutique
compositions into pillows.
(07:06):
Think about him, snuggling upwith that pillow, his vision
every night.
Yeah.
So there's definitely apsychological impact to that.
So
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Powerful story.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
I know that's one of my favorites
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Love it.
It's like Bravo, you know what Imean?
You really transformedsomebody's lives through art.
And just thinking of that, howdo you think art does help
people?
I mean, it helps anybody.
I, cause I feel everybody's anartist.
I think we all do on this panel,but how do you think art does
help you find the way?
Speaker 3 (07:44):
Well, you know, there are all kinds of psychological
studies and, and biologicalstudies that show the, um, power
of art to relieve stress, tocalm someone down, to help them
escape from, you know, thosethoughts, those intruding
(08:04):
negative thoughts.
And just, just that when you arestressed out, if you can doodle
for 10 minutes, you're going tofeel better.
There's something powerful justabout that process.
Um, so if you're able to bebrave enough to actually pick up
(08:26):
a paintbrush or a pencil ormarkers or whatever it is and
use it, you're going to find outsomething about yourself that
maybe you didn't know.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Yeah.
That's what I was thinking aboutabout when you, when I initially
asked the question, you said,first, you need to know why
you're lost mm-hmm
answer for that.
Art is your answer for figuringout the why to kind of all of
your questions about youryourself, um, and your own
emotions and things like that,because it does, it can show you
(09:01):
what your other part of yourbrain, um, is sort of protecting
you from.
Exactly.
I also think looking even justlooking at art can do that.
I think every person that'sallowed themselves to be open to
an experience of going to an artgallery or a museum or public
art, or what have you,performance, um, has been
(09:25):
changed by that experience andhas had, has, has a story to
share about a work of art thathit them in a way that they were
not expecting mm-hmm
And I think that that's what'shappening is that it's opening a
part of you mm-hmm
protecting yourself from, orhiding yourself from, uh, for a
while.
(09:45):
Uh, because a lot of it is fear,right?
Mm-hmm
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Well, you know, we are born and especially learn as
we grow a resistance factor inour brain, a counter arguing, we
, um, there's resistance to selfreflect.
There's a resistance to talkingabout things that are meaningful
(10:12):
to us.
So aren't actually bypasses thatpart of the brain and taps into
something much more organic thatyou can't argue with.
It just comes out
It, it, it just comes out.
You weren't intending to, butthere it is.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I'm constantly thinking, wewe're constantly talking about
that.
Like when people areapprehensive of making art,
that's probably, even thoughthey might not understand that
that's one of the reasons,right.
A lot of people say, well, I'mnot an artist I can't draw.
Um, and then when you, when youanswer to that and you're like,
(10:53):
well, that's not the part thatmatters.
And if they can get beyond that,there's another hurdle.
It's the hurdle of actually,well, I'm kind of scared of what
I might create.
I'm kind of scared of whatmyself might wanna tell myself
right now.
And maybe I'm not ready forthat.
Mm-hmm
when they're not necessarily,uh, ready to almost face their
(11:14):
own demons?
Have you ever encountered thatin your work?
Speaker 3 (11:17):
Yeah, when I was in graduate school, we had to, um,
find someone in the communityand do individual art therapy
with them.
And specifically this one taskcalled the diagnostic drawing
series.
And, um, it's a series of threepictures.
And then you process and I had aseminary student that was, um,
(11:39):
looking at graduation in thefollowing year.
And in our conversation, Ihappened to make an observation
just strictly about his picture.
And he shut down, said, wait aminute, I didn't bargain for
this.
And he got up and he left theroom.
(12:01):
Oh, wow.
Right, right.
Yeah.
And I went back to my classgoing, I don't know what I did
wrong, you know?
Oh my God.
Well, he came back cuz we had tomeet with them for three
sessions and he came back forthe third session and he says,
okay, I apologize for that.
But it touched something that Ihad to really go home and
(12:25):
reflect on.
And he said, I don't wanna talkabout it.
But I did go to my supervisor inmy seminary school and we
processed it.
And I want to thank you forhelping me identify an issue
that I didn't know was there.
Wow.
Right.
Wow.
So yeah, that, that resistance,um, is pretty magical.
(12:48):
And that, that inner critic thatwe develop, you know, we develop
it, um, developmentally aboutthe second or third grade, we
start getting that inner criticand it serves two purposes.
One of the purposes is toprotect us.
(13:09):
Mm-hmm
going to make other people laughat us or other people think
poorly of us.
Mm-hmm
power, it restricts us from everactually trying things that
might be beneficial.
Art, you know, is one of thosethings.
(13:31):
So when you see someone that'slike really resistance is I
can't draw, I don't do that.
Okay.
Just scribble, just scribble.
Everyone will scribble, youknow, but it's really funny when
you see people try and scribblethat are that resistance.
It always has a pattern andthat's not scribbling.
(13:53):
So put the marker in the otherhand and let's try again, you
know, so you have to be reallypatient until the scribbling
actually starts to open them upand they start to relax.
Um, then, then stuff can reallycome out.
The conversations can reallystart.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
I love I'm finding, I'd like the idea of this
resistance.
I, when does that, when doesthat start in your it's a
condition thing?
When does that start in our
Speaker 3 (14:21):
D well, it starts about the time that your inner
critic starts.
Okay.
Um, so the inner critic startsbetween, uh, second and third
grade, but by the time you getsixth grade and then especially
into those junior high years,when peer pressure is such a big
thing, mm-hmm,
(14:41):
either come in and plant itsroots.
Mm-hmm
pressure we wanna blend in, wewanna get along, um, people that
get stuck, there are those thatsay, I can't draw.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
People that, you know, are able to counter argue
that resistance and try newthings.
Anyway, those are the ones thatare much more open to different
kinds of therapies and differentkinds of interventions.
So
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Yeah, I can, I can see that.
Yeah.
I was talking with someone about, um, sort of our take in our
break movement and, and how, uh,what resistance we've
encountered and sort of ourresponses to that.
And I was thinking of, I wassaying to them that I it's the
gist about finding that thingthat works for you mm-hmm
(15:30):
of all inherently in us.
And I think we just hide it fromourselves and the rest of the
world.
And I was thinking about my ownchildren who don't like sit
still.
And if there's music, especiallyif there's music, I mean, they
just don't sit still at all.
But if you turn music on, it'slike a full out party in our
(15:53):
house.
And I, I have that kind of bodytoo, where if there's music, I,
I will be singing or I will bedancing or at least be tapping
my foot.
There's no way I can.
It's almost like I can't controlit.
And I was saying to this person,I actually think that most
people are like that.
It's just that the older youget, the more nervous you get
(16:13):
about like kind of peoplelooking at you.
Like you're a weirdo
if you're like singing to a songor dancing, when you hear music
or moving your body in a waythat doesn't seem quote unquote
normal.
Like if you're, I don't know.
I just think of someone in likea clothing store, right.
There's music playing.
I kind of go to another worldand you know, and I, I can you
(16:37):
don't so like, how do you dothat in a world?
That's like constantly tellingpeople that they need to, to
blend in mm-hmm
in children's lives are actuallytelling them to blend in for
management purposes.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Right, right,
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Right.
What do you, how do you, how doyou compensate for that?
Or what do you do, um, to, well,
Speaker 3 (17:05):
It's interesting.
I see this manifest in clientsthat have some kind of social
phobia.
So they hate going to thegrocery store because they're
terrified.
People are looking at them allthe time.
Mm-hmm
And so, you know, it generallystarts with, okay, set your
watch a minute.
When, after you've gotten inthere, I want you to stop what
(17:27):
you're doing.
And then just do a 360 lookaround how many people are
actually looking at you.
You know, no one is now, right.
We have five minutes now try,you know, because they grew up
either really, really shelteredwhere someone was constantly
taking away choices because theywanted them to do it.
(17:49):
Right.
Well, you didn't do that.
Right.
You didn't make your bed.
Right.
So mom's gonna make it for youtoday.
You know, watch again,eventually that, that hinders,
you know, that, that shuts off aperson's ability to believe they
can do anything.
Right.
So now they start becoming veryself critical and they believe
(18:13):
everyone is staring at thembecause they just are who they
are.
Right.
They look where these are thenegative messages we tell
ourselves, especially whenyou're in a state of phobia like
that.
And, um, one of my clients, Ihad him do that.
Exactly what I just said, go tothe grocery store.
And when you start feelinganxious, I want you to stop and
(18:36):
just turn slowly around and lookat the people around you and
notice is anyone looking at you?
Right.
You know, and within a few weeksof doing this, he was able to go
to the grocery store, buyhimself, you know?
So, um, it really is a, aprocess of retraining the brain
(18:56):
at that point to identify newmessaging, you know, to feed it,
new messages that say, youreally can do this.
Um, yeah.
So at the other way, people getlike that is if they have no
safety in their childhood.
So, you know, there's, theylearn to be very, especially you
(19:20):
see this in abuse, um, eitherphysical or emotional abuse in
that they're so scared they'regoing to set someone off that
they don't do anything.
Right, right.
Completely shut down.
So, um, those are the types ofpeople.
When you see that person whosays, I can't draw, I won't even
(19:42):
pick up a pen to, to scribble,you know, then, you know, right
there that something from theirchildhood has created this
problem.
So we need to back up and dosome more talking until we can
create a safe space.
Mm-hmm
So right.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Do you have any suggestions of like, not, you
know, like, um, I'm sure you'veencountered this in your work as
well when people say, well, I'mnot even gonna do that because I
can't draw.
Is there another suggestion thatyou say we're like, well, okay.
Let's um, let's listen to music.
Let's go.
Um, absolutely like take, youknow, look at the trees or the
(20:23):
sky and things like that.
Are there things that people cando to, to get a little bit, one
step closer to that?
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Well, if it's a client in session with me, I
say, okay, that's fine.
We don't have to do any of that.
Do you like looking atmagazines?
I've got some magazines.
Can you find three picturesthat, tell me just a little
about who you are.
Mm-hmm
That's nonthreatening, you know?
Well, I like dogs.
Well, I like hamburgers.
You know, this is what kids giveyou, you know, teen giving.
(20:50):
I like dogs.
I like hamburgers.
I like makeup, you know, mm-hmm
What is it you like about those?
And that's how you start theconversation to begin creating
that safe space.
So, um, you know, that fearcomes from childhood and as
adults, if they come to us, thenthat means they're they know
(21:14):
they have a problem.
And it's just a matter of beingflexible, which we, as artists
are flexible,
reading them, feeling them out.
And sometimes it's just, can youhere, here's some silly putty
play with silly putty while wetalk, play with some Play-Doh
(21:36):
while we talk, you know, thosekind of things, just help them
start getting used to the ideaof using their hands with you.
Yeah.
They don't realize that's whatyou're doing, but you're getting
them used to the idea of usingtheir hands while they're
talking.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
So what I'm hearing is, um, resistance comes from
trauma in your childhood.
Mm-hmm
And then yeah.
Is that kind of that?
And then, and then when you're,if you can get people to start
using their hands and they tastea little freedom, then they can
retrain their brain to be like,oh, I'm I can be happy.
I don't have to be so
(22:14):
You know what I mean?
This great jacket of resistance.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
Yeah.
You know, it's, it is some formof trauma.
A lot of people wouldn'tidentify it as that.
I had a great childhood.
My mom did everything for me,you know?
So that's why you're 27.
And you still take your laundryhome to mom.
(22:39):
Right.
Let's talk about that.
Let's see if we can get you todo that.
Um, simple things, but theywon't identify it as trauma.
So again, you're right.
Using the expressive therapies,continuum, identify six levels
(23:00):
of brain processing, and thereare different mediums you can
use to change the level ofprocessing in your brain.
So anytime you're using yourhands, you're more in that
kinesthetic, you know?
And so that tends to open peopleup.
If that's why people, a lot oftimes, if you're walking, they
(23:21):
will talk.
If you're driving somewhere.
That was when I had the greatestconversations with my kids, cuz
they weren't walking at me, butwe were going somewhere.
We were using our bodies, youknow, breaking leaves worked the
same way.
Doing something allows you toaccess a different part of your
brain.
Mm-hmm
resistance by opening the doorthrough the kinesthetic motion.
(23:45):
Does that make sense at all?
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Oh yeah.
That makes total sense.
Um, I think that it's like wesee that all the time when we
have people taking art breaks ata table together that I've never
met before.
Mm-hmm
seriousness of the conversationand how quickly it gets there,
um, is always sort of, sort ofincredible, you know?
(24:08):
Uh, and, and I think it's, it'sthat it's like even the, the act
of not having to look up atsomeone while you're saying
something right, exactly.
Right.
If you're just doodling at atable at a table and you just
kind of say something it's,you've removed that, um, that
barrier of fear almost right?
Like that eye contact can beintimidating for people.
(24:30):
Right.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
The heart break too.
You've got someone there doingthe same activity.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Yeah.
So
Speaker 3 (24:36):
I always find the resistance is a little bit
easier to bypass in groups.
Mm-hmm
peer pressure starts happening.
That's why in a group, I givethe directive, you know, people
that want to start the otherpeople sit there and watch I'm
(24:57):
always doing it with them, youknow, and then going over and
helping this person are makingsuggestions, answering
questions.
Mm-hmm
spirit that allows people thento go, okay, I'm gonna try this.
I'm gonna do something, youknow, instead of sit here for
two hours.
So, um, in an art break day kindof thing, you've got that peer
(25:23):
pressure quote, unquote mm-hmm
I've sat down at the table and Idon't wanna look like an idiot.
So that's where the inner criticplays in your favor.
You know what I mean?
I don't wanna look like an idiotand if I'm sitting here and not
doing it and everyone else is
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Yeah, yeah.
It's like positive, positivepeer pressure or something,
right?
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
It's positive punishment clearly, you know?
Right.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
I loved, I, I, when we were at art break day all the
time, I always thought it waslike, I just cause people's
heads were down and it was, theywould always talk, like you
said, really deep.
And like, they were best friendsby the end of the conversation
and they hang out for like anhour or two hours.
But my, my degree was alwayscause the head was down.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
I, I do.
I think that has something to dowith it.
You know, I also have noticedwith my own children and I've
had to sort of step back as amom because they do stuff when
I'm talking to them about somethings.
And I have had to allow myselfto allow them to do that because
it actually, it almost helpsthem process more and it also
(26:32):
helps them open up more, youknow, because at first I'm like,
can you please look at me when Italk to you?
But then I, I started to realizelike, I, I, they, it's probably
in, I'm probably intimidatingthem a little bit.
Mm-hmm
how my own children's brainswork and relating it to like how
my brain works and my husband'sbrain works.
(26:52):
Of course they can't do onething at a time.
When am I ever doing one thingat a time?
That's not how my brain works.
It's definitely.
So they've inherited that.
And so for them to even just beflipping their fingers through a
book pages or to be looking downat a book
Speaker 3 (27:08):
Mm-hmm
Speaker 2 (27:09):
And so it is, it's reallyinteresting, this like idea of
how to, how people have moreconversations.
It's almost like maybeconversations don't need to be
had the way that we expect themto be had.
Maybe they're stronger when weallow people to feel less
(27:30):
intimidated, um, by aconversation because for some
people talk, speaking of likethose phobias and all of this
stuff that we carry with us,mm-hmm
conversation is terrifying.
And so maybe it's better to justfind that sort of that flow.
(27:51):
And I do.
I think that art is a reallygood way.
Once you can get past the, thefear of art and you can sit down
and do a true scribble doodlewith someone, um, you'll leave
feeling more connected, um, withyourself, with them and probably
have like solved some sort ofproblem or realized that it's
(28:14):
not as scary as maybe youthought it would be, you know,
right.
To have a conversation and tomake art.
Right.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
Exactly.
Exactly.
You know, that's why the eyecontact unfortunately, has been
socialized to mean you're introuble.
Think about it in the classroom.
You know, teachers are like,Jason, you're not looking at me.
I'm trying to say
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Something
Speaker 3 (28:37):
Right.
Or parents oftentimes, like yousaid, look at me when I talk to
you.
Right?
Speaker 2 (28:42):
So
Speaker 3 (28:42):
There's an automatic social conditioning that says,
if I am looking someone in theeye, I must be in trouble.
So, so to protect ourselves,it's easier to talk when we
don't look at someone else.
So, you know, if you havesomeone that just sits there and
(29:03):
doesn't look at you and doesn'tdo anything, that's more of a
challenge.
If you have someone that doesn'tlook at you, but is doing
something physically, are theyjust bouncing their foot?
Are they, you know, playing witha pin?
Are they playing with theirhair?
Right.
Get them doing something.
(29:24):
You know, I know myself, when Itake classes, I had a, a doodle
journal.
Mm-hmm
but I also had a doodle journalwhen I was listening.
When I went to the peace Corps,I did Zen tangles all the time
during training.
And initially the Thaiinstructors were very put off by
(29:45):
that.
They thought I was beingdisrespectful.
Right.
Until they would start askingquestions and I could answer
whatever it was, they threw atme.
And they're like, we figured outthat's the way you listen.
Right?
Yeah.
I don't listen if I'm justsitting there looking at you.
I don't listen at all.
That's just me.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Yeah.
I mean, I think there's studysaying draw when a lecture or in
class, you actually retain moreinformation.
Mm-hmm
at you is that authority figurethat's that, you know, it's
could be just, just theauthority.
Could it be the government?
It could be whatever, you knowwhat I mean?
Exactly.
Whatever that, you know, makesus shaken our boots.
(30:26):
And the other thing that I wannacircle back at, I love that you
said when people create togetheror when they start creating,
they're sharing their creativespirit mm-hmm
Um, and, and I think when peoplestart sharing it, that's, that's
when they, you know, that's whenthings start really changing and
transforming.
Cause what I love at our breakday, you know, people talk and
(30:47):
they, you know, like get reallydeep in conversation, but they
always leave their art with us.
Mm-hmm
with the world cuz they like tosee it all hung up.
So that's full circle, likesharing the creative spirit.
How does that feel?
What does that do and how caneverybody experience it?
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Yeah, I think, I think right to think about this,
the question, you know, can artsave you when you're lost?
How can art save you?
You know, how does it do that?
Right.
And I think that, I mean,obviously art can do so many
things.
That's hard to wrap up.
Um, but I think that it, itdoes, it, it almost brings you
(31:29):
more into the conversation andthen when you're more into the
conversation, you're moreconnected.
Mm-hmm
you're feeling lost, when you'refeeling as though the ground is
sort of separating underneathyou or you're feeling
overwhelmed or you feel asthough you have no future mm-hmm
(31:51):
I think that when you sort ofmake art about it, have you made
art about that today?
Right.
Um, you can maybe discover thatpart of you that's maybe holding
you back or facing that fear ofthat future that you feel is
planned out for you mm-hmm
(32:13):
make that shift.
Right.
You imagine that story that youtold at the beginning of the
conversation and had that personnot made art about it mm-hmm
themselves into that future thathad been essentially made for
them.
Mm-hmm
(32:34):
that kind of future.
Right.
But by doing that, they
Speaker 3 (32:39):
Changed it, which I think is so incredible.
Right.
Right.
Well, just creating a vision forsomething you want for yourself,
just that simple fact can changeyour future.
Um, imagine going on a road tripand not having a map or
directions, what are you gonnado?
(32:59):
You're gonna go around incircles, you know, imagine
putting a jigsaw puzzletogether.
That is perfectly blank.
That has no picture on it.
How much more difficult is it todo that than it is when you have
pictures to go by.
So, um, you need some kind ofimage that you're working toward
(33:20):
in order to make the journey alittle easier, make the puzzle
come together a little faster,you know?
Yeah.
So, um, yeah, those thingsyou're gonna get lost.
If you don't have a vision foryour future, you're just gonna
do it.
You're gonna be at the mercy ofthe current of the stream and
you're gonna get thrown on theshores.
(33:41):
I talk in metaphors.
I apologize.
That's right up.
That's right up my alley.
Yeah.
So
Speaker 1 (33:49):
Can you, um, cause I love this idea of creating a
vision.
We all need to create visions.
Can you just give people thatare listening, um, an easy way
to create their vision for, for2023, just kind of like an
activity
Speaker 3 (34:04):
Mm-hmm
vision boards.
That's what a lot of people do.
Mm-hmm
the front end, it looks likejust a collection of random
objects that are speaking toyou.
But when you stop and, and pull'em together and kinda lay it
all out together, you startseeing patterns, you know, these
(34:25):
are trips I wanna take.
These are words that I wannafeel.
These are people, you know, Iwanna be more connected to
people that can have a whole lotof different meanings.
Um, once you do it and it's justseriously, it's going through
magazines, going through yourdrawers, walking around, you
(34:47):
know, looking through your junkboxes, you know, and finding
things that you're drawn to, forwhatever reason, you don't have
to know why just it, you pick itup and it feels good.
So you put it in your pile andeventually you start seeing
these patterns emerge that helpyou identify where it is you
wanna go for the next year.
(35:08):
You know, it can be as simple asthat.
Um, and you can get all kinds ofideas just looking on Pinterest
or, or Googling, just visionboards.
You'll see.
'em everywhere.
Um, with people, yeah.
With people that are, you know,really resistant magazine,
(35:29):
collage is the easiest thing todo.
It's just, you know, find somemagazines, go through'em and
tear out or cut out pictures andwords that you like and then put
it together and see what it saysto you.
So, um, there's, for somereason, those magazine collages
are the least threatening thing.
(35:49):
Yeah.
That a person can do, but theycan have some of the most
powerful meaning and impact onceyou start processing them later.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
And then,
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Oh, just one, one.
Cause you kept on saying,recognizing the patterns.
What if people dunno how to do
Speaker 3 (36:04):
That's OK.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
That's
Speaker 2 (36:06):
OK.
I know.
I, I, yeah.
That's okay.
I, I like the idea of thisactivity that you said, which is
you, when you were talking about, uh, grab it because it makes
you feel good.
Like what if you like, even ifsomeone had no magazines, no,
uh, way of taking photographs orwhatever, if you just did that
(36:27):
for a day, did that for an hour?
Just notice what makes you feelgood?
Just notice what makes you feelgood?
And, and you could even eitherjust make a mental note of that
or jot it down mm-hmm
like for people who are like, Ihave no idea how to recognize
those patterns.
Right?
Show it to someone get braveenough and show it to someone
(36:49):
else because I've done thatbefore, which is like, I can't
figure this out.
Why do I keep doing this?
You know, you can you just tell,you know, give me your, give me
your insights.
Right?
Give it to someone else or, orcome back to it later.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
Right.
You know, a lot of people say, Idon't, I don't see any patterns.
Okay.
Just put it on your wall.
Mm-hmm
refrigerator, walk by it everyday and take a look at it.
Eventually something's going toclick mm-hmm
you made a good point.
Lauren, if you don't havemagazines, you don't have
pictures, go for a walk and pickup things, rocks, leave sticks.
(37:32):
And if it makes you feelsomething, bring it in, you
know?
Yeah.
If it makes you feel negative,toss it away.
Mm-hmm
But if it makes you feelsomething, either ambivalent or
feel good, bring it in.
Yeah.
Because chances are you pickedit up for a reason.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
Yeah.
I like that.
I like the like, I mean, that'sa great self-awareness exercise.
It's it's it's making you feelgood for a reason.
It's making you feel bad for areason.
And like, let's elaborate onthat.
Yeah.
I like that
Speaker 3 (38:02):
You were talking earlier about going to art
galleries.
And I used to take my, the teensin my programs to an art
gallery, or we would have an artshow ourselves of their work.
And you know, it was reallyfunny because teens are gonna go
look at some abstract fees andgo, I can do that.
You know, that's not good art.
(38:23):
Why is it hanging up here?
What does it make you feel?
Well, I think it's hideous.
Okay.
Why, why, why do you think itmakes, why do you think it's
hideous?
What is it about it?
Is it it, because it's toosimple and you're kicking
yourself because you could havedone that, but you never thought
about it.
Well, let's go back and try, youknow?
(38:45):
So if it makes you feelsomething it's good art, I don't
care what it looks like.
If it makes you feel somethingit's good art.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
Yeah.
I'm, I'm all about how art makesyou feel.
Yeah, I'm all.
Speaker 3 (38:59):
I had a kid in our, um, after school program that
Lisa taught in.
This was one in a differentschool.
Um, that one day I came in and Isaid, we're making bad art
today.
We're making bad art.
And so, you know, his normalthing was skulls, suicides,
blood, you know, and he startsdoing all of that again.
(39:21):
And I went, no, that's your goodart.
I wanna say bad art.
And this is a kid with a Mohawkpiercings tattoos, you know, the
whole thing.
He starts making rainbows andbutterflies flowers and it was
hysterical.
And then when we process aboutwhy he did chose that as bad art
(39:44):
, well, because it's pretty andI don't do pretty.
So what is it about pretty thatmakes you feel bad, you know?
So you start asking those followup questions that makes them
start thinking, but it was sofunny to see him suddenly making
rainbows and butterflies andflowers.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Opposite opposite day .
Wow.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
This conversation gone forever.
It's almost like it's almostlike art makes you feel, and
then you kind unwind that youhave to have the courage to go.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
Yeah, I think right.
I think it's the, like, um,there's a, it's a very multiple
step process and you can makethe choice how deep you wanna
go, you know, because it's, it'sgreat to open, open yourself up
simply by taking an art break,you can just reduce stress by
(40:37):
taking an art break, but youcould also look back at that art
, um, and figure out why you'restressed and you know, and you
can have that conversation withyour art and with yourself.
Um, even if, kind of, you don't
Speaker 3 (40:54):
Know, even if you don't know why though.
Cause the same person that saysI can't draw is going to say,
well, that's ugly.
Why?
I don't know.
It just is right.
You hear that all the time.
Mm-hmm
It might be to share theircreative spirit or it might be
because they don't wanna look atwhy they made that.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
Yeah.
That's I think that's a really,really good point.
Yes.
Yes.
Speaker 3 (41:19):
Why is just as scary as picking up that pencil and
doodling?
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Why
Speaker 3 (41:24):
Is
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Scary?
The why?
I think the, why is scarier, youknow, to be honest, I think that
, um, I think a lot of peopleare like, okay, they, they will
succumb to the peer pressure.
I'm thinking of our events andthey'll, they'll find they'll do
it.
And then, um, and then they'll,then they won't do the, they
don't wanna do the rest of it.
(41:45):
Right.
Because that's the that's evenscarier.
Mm-hmm
real work comes in.
Um, but you have to, you reallydo.
You have to be willing to, um,talk about all of it.
And, and a lot of people don'twanna have like a full
(42:05):
conversation.
They wanna have like a quarterof a conversation
but it's a really good start.
It's a really good start.
And maybe you'll have thatconversation in private.
Maybe you'll leave that artthere, but maybe you'll pick up
a sketchbook and you'll, andyou'll start writing in it or,
or doodling in it.
And then you can slowly havethat conversation with yourself.
(42:26):
It's better than not having thatconversation at all.
You know, it's
Speaker 3 (42:29):
Just like that guy that walked out of his session
with me because he wasn't readyto go the why, the why and why,
you know, but it caused them tothink, you know, and so they may
leave their artwork with you,but they're gonna think about
it, you know, they're gonnathink about what they made and
maybe they'll learn something.
(42:50):
Maybe they won't, but they'regonna think about it.
And those that have the strengthto think are the ones that have
the strength to discover the why
Speaker 2 (43:03):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm
Awesome.
Wow.
Yeah.
I could talk to you all dayabout this.
Um, thank you.
Thank you so much for taking thetime.
I really appreciate it.
And thanks.
Um, yeah, I love what you do our
Speaker 3 (43:15):
Convers conversation.
Thanks guys.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
Let's see.
How do I get off stuff?
Live screen.
Popular Podcasts
United States of Kennedy
United States of Kennedy is a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week, hosts Lyra Smith and George Civeris go into one aspect of the Kennedy story.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.