How can art help you build more self awareness?

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Lisa and Lauren chat with current President of The American Art Therapy Association, Founder of Creative Studio, and Professor of Continuing Education at the Anáhuac University in Mexico City, Nadia F. Paredes (https://www.artfooddreamers.com/)  and the positive impact that can have on them, their community, and the world. They also talked about the challenge of when a creative person hits a wall, falls into a funk and that not making art is also part of the process of creating and making art. If your someone who has never considered themselves creative or if you are feeling a creative block, this podcast is for you. Check it out. Lauren mentions a past podcast episode, and you can listen to that conversation at https://artismoving.org/feed-your-creative-life/

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Episode Transcript

Lisa (00:02):
Okay. Welcome to Artist Moving. It's a new day, as we
all said. We are so happy tohave Nadia on our show today.
This is Lisa Lauren . So Nadia,introduce yourself in a short
way.

Nadia (00:15):
. Sure. Thank you both. Uh, so my name is
Nadia Paredes. I am registeredart therapist , uh, family and
marital therapist as well. But, um, I, I think that the thing
that I hold most valuable toright now is I am the current
president of the American ArtTherapy Association. Wow. So
that's awesome.

Lauren (00:36):
That's a lot. That's a lot. That's awesome.

Nadia (00:39):
. So that's me, in short,

Lauren (00:41):
That's a

Nadia (00:42):
Professional version of me. That's great . That's
great. Yeah . I'm mom , I'malso wife . I'm most adult mom
,

Lauren (00:48):
. Uh, well, thanks for taking the time to
talk to us today. Uh, and wejust want, we always like to
start with just a question tojump off of, and then just
wherever it goes, it goes , um,wherever . Yeah. Yeah. It's, it
tends to go really well. Uh, sowe just wanted to talk to you
about , um, about how art canmake someone more self-aware ,

(01:11):
um, because a lot of artistswe've talked to in the past
have spoken to this idea oflike, without even realizing
it, like art is kind of thistool where you get to know
yourself a little bit better.
So why don't you give us yourinterpretation of how art can
help with self-awareness?

Nadia (01:28):
Of course. So , uh, I guess I would start with just
saying, as an art therapist, Isee that art is a mirror,
right? What you create, kindalike the product that you
create can definitely serve asa mirror of who you are. But
for me, I mean, I'm aprocess-based art making , like
art maker, so mm-hmm . I think the
process is so revealing, right?

(01:50):
When you're making art, youstart to notice so many things
about yourself that if you'rejust a little bit, just like
self-aware, that you will startto realize like, huh, I'm
noticing right now that I'mstruggling with this, you know,
stroke. That usually to me it'svery easy, or, oh , I usually
do these things and now it'skind like getting weird, or I'm

(02:12):
getting too self aware or, youknow, it's like I'm , or, or I
kind of like, I'm getting a lotof like, you know, kind of like
fearful of like, Ooh , whatwould other people think? I
think that that's the momentwhere we can use that
self-awareness of like, this isinteresting to think like, how
is this kind of like, appear inmy everyday life? Like in my

(02:35):
everyday life? Am I alsostruggling with, I'm very
worried about what other peoplethink about me? Or am I, you
know, kinda like you cantranslate that art process of
yours into like, huh, is thisalso mirroring my reality?
Right? And who I am right now,do I have a creative block
because I am like, where's thisblock coming from? Am I having
some personal things happeningthat maybe are preventing me

(02:58):
from, from getting into thecreative or, you know, or maybe
again, when you're creating,suddenly things get unblocked,
. Mm-hmm .
'cause the way art is, right?
The cool thing about art, Imean, and , and this is art
therapy science. Now I'm gonnago a little bit more into the
science space of it. Um, it'slike when we create art,
there's a theory in art therapycalled the expressive therapies

(03:19):
continuum, right? And we saythat creativity is kinda like
created at a nervous systemlevel in three levels, right?
Body, emotions and mind, we cancreate from our body by sensory
or by kinesthetic, right? Maybethe movement is what's getting
like, oh, this is very nice.
This is feeling good, soothing.

(03:40):
I like this slow movement rightnow, you know, of me
interacting with my art. Uh, ormaybe it's more the sensory,
right? Like, oh my God, thesmell of the, you know, of, of
the clay or the paint mm-hmm . Uh , or, or is
it more like me sensing like,no , like, you know, finger
painting, right? Like, just howis that feeling for me? Um, and
how that helps me kinda likeground myself, right? Like,

(04:01):
that is the way that creativitykind of like shows up
physically. But then there'salso the emotions, right?
Sometimes we create somethingand the feelings get poured out
of our system. Mm-hmm . Sometimes by
just ourselves just putting theemotion out there, it's just
nice, right? When you're justlike, ah , I'm feeling so
angry, or I'm feeling soresentful because of historical
things that are happeningaround me. Right? You paint and

(04:22):
you create, and then that angeris out of you. Like suddenly
you're like, okay, it's not ,I'm no longer holding onto this
inside me, it's out there.
Right? Or there's also thatother part of like, just
creating, for example,repetitive patterns is
soothing. Mm-hmm . Like if you're notice , like
if you're a scribbler ,you're probably using art to
self-regulate your emotions,right? If you're like, you know

(04:44):
, eating and you're likepainting away, or you're just
kinda like creating somethingon the side and that helps you
concentrate. That's you usingart to self-regulate and be
able to actually think. Right?
So whenever mm-hmm . Teachers tell
me like, don't get dis like,kids don't have to be
distracted. I was like, on thecontrary, they're actually
focusing like they're actuallybeing able to focus and listen
to you. 'cause the emotions arebeing put on paper. Um, and

(05:07):
then we have that, again, thatthird level, the mind. Um, and
in that space, what we do isthat, you know, we have ways to
express ourselves that aresymbolic, right? Like, like,
for example, an emoji emojisare , are kinda like , we all
know what they are. If I sendyou a sad phase , you will
understand what I'm sharing. Mm, mm-hmm . Right?
And then there's also thatother aspect of creating

(05:28):
symbols where you're likecreating metaphors for
yourself, right? I mean, wecould see that in poetry.
Mm-hmm . Of like,I feel like the wind is lifting
me from the ground. Mm-hmm . Right? Like,
I'm not telling , I'm , I'mtelling you exactly how I feel,
but not, you know, not reallytelling you how I feel. Right.
Or not, kind of like veryconcretely. So because of all

(05:49):
those things, art andcreativity are a holistic way
of connecting with yourself.
'cause again, you're engagingall of your body, all of your,
so like , of your mind, youremotions, and that's why it's
so important. Mm-hmm . Like, that's
where it gets to a, oh, this ishow I self explore because this
is literally me being my wholeself.

Lauren (06:09):
Mm . Mm-hmm .

Nadia (06:11):
With ,

Lauren (06:11):
So , right. So you're saying that the magic of art,
one of the many magics of artis that it's engaging your
mind, body, and emotions at thesame moment.

Nadia (06:25):
Yeah. Oh, and I forgot to say also spiritual. I mean
that, I guess like that dependson, you know, on , on what are
your belief , like beliefsystems . Yeah . But definitely
also spirit, right? Right .
Like also your , whatever yourconception is of soul,
spiritualism, higher beings,all of that. Right? Like, I
think that it's so present.
Like, I, I was in China , um, Ijust returned Monday. Wow. And

(06:47):
it's amazing to see the waythey make art because
there was a lot of spiritualitypresent in their creations.
Like, I, I went to a concertand this musician , um, he
explained to us that he's like,I put this instrument, the one
which is a , a very ancient,like musical instrument in
China. He's like, I put it infront of the Buddha and kind of

(07:08):
like, just, you know, told himto guide me that I would put
his word forward to everybodythrough my, through this
instrument. And then he showedus, this is the instrument,
right. That I, that I put infront of this statue. And
honestly, like, he told us thisafter the concert ended, like
he had like a q and a with apublic. And honestly, I was
amazed, like the entireconcert, I was just fascinated

(07:31):
that this music felt so out ofearth . Like, it was
just so, so completely, I wasin this space of relaxation
that I hadn't experienced inyears where I was like, so
relaxed

Lauren (07:42):
. Wow .

Nadia (07:42):
So not this moment.
Like, it was just so, again,and when he explained that, I
was like, absolutely. Like,this was a spiritual
experience, right. That we werehearing prayers happening
through, through song. Right.
And , and it was just beingvery present in that moment. So
I definitely feel like there'sthat component of, again,
right? Like he's using hisfingers to move, right? Like

(08:05):
create this kinesthetic energyin combination with, you know,
this , um, you know, thisinstrument. He also said that
he attunes a lot with apublic's , um, energy, kind of
like, you know , how the the public feeling.
So there's that emotionalconnection right. To the other,
to yourself. And then there'shim connecting to a higher
source, you know, that he'slike, I'm just gonna channel

(08:28):
whatever the source wants toshare with all of you. Right .
And then we went into acognitive space of like, him
processing this for all of us.
Right . Happen to allof you. And we were all like,
this is amazing . Thisis, wow .

Lisa (08:40):
That's the power of art .
That's amazing. I have a kindof a intervention about being
self-aware. So after thishistoric tragic thing happened
in my, in my paradigm , um, I,I said, I , I'm an artist. I'm
an arts and healing artist ,right? And that's my whole
life. I didn't want anything todo with art. I'm like, I don't
want anymore. So what do you dothen? Because we're talking

(09:00):
about the power of art. But atthat moment in time, I was
like, it. I'm sorry, I can'tswear. But , you know,
what, how can , how, and you'reYes . Kind of getting me back
to that space. But I think alot of people might be feeling
that, you know, like ,

Lauren (09:15):
Um , right. No, I'm, I'm actually on the same page
as you , Lisa . Um , I'm like,it's, it's like ins inspiring
me to think about what aboutwhat about someone who, like,
how do you do it? You know whatI mean? Like, and then, and it
, it's because, you know, thethree of us here have

(09:36):
experienced what you justtalked about, right? You've
just experienced it for a hun athousandth time in your life
when you traveled. Right. Andwe, we know what art can do,
but what, what if you'resomeone who's like , uh, no .
How do we get people to? How do we get people

(09:57):
to, to give it a try? Becausewe know that the world would be
a better place if everybody wasusing art as a way to get to
know themselves better. Yeah.

Nadia (10:09):
, what a

Lauren (10:09):
Challenge. Right?

Nadia (10:11):
What a challenge. I was like, it's a challenge that I
actually, I enjoy a lot. Iactually, the work that I do
with like, communities, I enjoyworking with people who tell me
I'm not an artist. 'cause I'mlike mm-hmm . Oh
my God, come on , take us .

Lisa (10:23):
Yeah . Yeah .

Nadia (10:24):
Lemme show you the power of this thing that we do. Uh ,
but first I will address like,the first question, kind of
like, you know, when you gointo this funk of Yeah . I
don't wanna create, like rightnow. Yeah . I think that
collective feeling. 'cause Iwas absolutely with you
, like yesterday, I was like, Idon't wanna create, like, screw
that . I was like, I can't, butI will take us back to what I

(10:45):
was saying at the beginning of,look at the process of
creating, right? Like, let'slook at that and being like,
okay, I don't want to create,and why is that? Right? Like,
how is creative processexplaining my actual life
process? And I would be ,yesterday, a lot of the things
that I reflected on for myselfthat I was also, I'm usually

(11:08):
someone who's supper upbeat.
I'm always like, Hey, we'llfind a way out. Exactly . Like,
I'm like, I'm very positivelike that, where I'm like, I
mean, I'm , I'm Mexican, so Ialso feel like I'm like, ah ,
we can take on any challenge.
I'm like, we're creative . Wemake things happen. Like, you
know, we have no resources andwe still, we know make things
happen. Right. Yesterday for Ithink the first time in a long
time, I was like, Nope. Nope .

(11:31):
Yeah , I can't , Nope . Right?
But then I started to, youknow, I started to go on social
media, see what people weresaying, and I loved one of
like, the posts, many poststhat I saw that one was like,
about grief .

Lisa (11:45):
Yes . Mm-hmm

Nadia (11:46):
. And it was maybe right now we don't
need to produce. Right. Part ofthe creative process is to
create, to make something.
Right. But it was like, if wejump into creating, we're
missing the space ofreflection. We're missing the
space of not doing, which meansYeah . Sitting down with the

(12:07):
hardship, with the feeling thatwe're tempted maybe to be like,
I wanna get outta this. I wanna, you know, get my hands dirty
and start working on something.
But it was like, maybe it's notthe time yet. Like, first let's
take the time to rest. Yeah .
To allow this feeling to bepresent, which is an
uncomfortable feeling. definitely not nice. Right .

(12:27):
Because it might be a mix of alot of uncomfortable feelings.
Yeah . Right . Because I don'tthink they're bad feelings or
negative feelings. I do wannahighlight as a , I guess a
therapist. I'm like, Hey,they're just uncomfortable.
Yeah.

Lauren (12:38):
Yeah.

Nadia (12:39):
They serve a purpose.
Right. They have a purpose.
Right. You know, the purpose ofanger is for us to set
boundaries. Right. For me,yesterday, my feeling was
sadness. Mm-hmm .
And sadness is a feeling thatinvites you to reflection, that
invites you to slow down.

Lauren (12:56):
Yeah .

Nadia (12:57):
To think, right? Mm-hmm . To just think
about like, okay, why, goingback to that self-awareness,
like what , why am I so sad?
Where is this sadness stemmingfrom? What is this sadness
trying to tell me? Right. Yeah. About myself first. Right.
Before I have to figure it outfor myself before I figure out
for the rest of the world andwhat we can do or cannot do.

(13:19):
Right?

Lauren (13:20):
Yeah. I I I , I'm just gonna jump in here , um,
because I know Lisa prettywell, and I'm gonna say that I
think like the desperationcomes from because I mean, Lisa
is a helper and she's a healermm-hmm . And she
wants to, right . And so, as Ithink artists do that, right?
Artists are deep feelers. Andso we, we don't just feel it

(13:43):
ourselves, but we feel theentire world . Mm-hmm
. And so I thinkthat , um, it's almost easier
to feel the world when there'sjoyous and when you think of
like, optimism and a , and agreat future. And so, but it's
super important to find a wayto feel through , uh, the

(14:06):
helplessness and theuncomfortableness and the
somewhat sort of , uh, all ofthose feelings that you might
have. And, and then I like thatyou said that you, you need to
process it for yourself first.
'cause you're giving a lot ofpeople permission that
probably, myself included,wouldn't give

(14:28):
themselves, right? Mm-hmm . I'm like a
rusher, I'm gonna fix it. I'mlike, we can do this. We got
this, I'm gonna fix this. I'mgonna make a list right now.
And then we can, like, what canI do? Put it on the schedule.
. Yeah. I'm just gonnaput it on a schedule. And
, we got this. And, andit's nice to be reminded that
it's okay to slow down and feelyour feelings. That's what I

(14:50):
was , you know, my husband waslike, feel your feelings. Yeah
. Those are, those areimportant. And everybody,
everybody, no matter what thefeelings are, should be feeling
their feelings. They shouldn'thave those feelings sucked away
from them, or , um, insulted ,um, you know , they should be
welcome because it is , nomatter what it is, is you're ,

(15:10):
when you're going through atransition, no matter what it
is mm-hmm . Um,it's really important to
recognize the fact that you arecurrently going through a
transition. And transition ishard mm-hmm . For
everybody. And it, it brings upa lot of emotions. Um, so yes ,
this reminds me of aconversation we had in the past
with someone , um, and we weretalking about tulips versus

(15:34):
potatoes. And I feel like youneed to become a potato right
now because it's like thepotato takes a while and the
potato is slower and the potatoRight. But the potato has lots
of nourishment after it, itsits over winter. Right. Um,
you know, and then maybe wecould get to the tulip stage

(15:55):
of, of beautiful production,but right now, maybe we're in a
potato stage.

Lisa (16:00):
. I , I like that. And I wanna add to that.
Maybe we could talk about grief. How do you Yes. Grief is
something that you don'tunderstand until you really go
through it. It's a, it's a veryhard emotion to tackle. I lost
my mom very early in that, thatabyss I've never experienced.
Like, I never, unless you gothrough it, you don't know what
the hell it is. So I thinkright now a lot of people are,
they're feeling the grief.

(16:20):
There is a transformation,there is a transition. How do
people deal with that? Via art? Yes. Reflect, be potato , as
Lauren said, but how maybe givesome art therapy tools for
people. Like how do you get,how do you identify grief at
first it is sadness and thenreflect or

Nadia (16:37):
Anger. or

Lauren (16:39):
Anger .

Lisa (16:39):
Yes.

Nadia (16:39):
Or anger. I was like, it can be sadness or anger. I
mean, at first, you know, whenwe talk of grief, I think we
have to understand first we'remaybe in a state of shock.
Right? Like, maybe you're like,I'm not reacting, I'm numb.
Yeah. It's because it's theemotion again, it's gonna be so
big. Yeah . Uh , that your bodyjust goes like, sorry, we're
not experiencing this at themoment mm-hmm .
So if you feel like you'relike, I'm not feeling anything,

(17:01):
but literally anything thatyou're like, I'm numb. I am , I
, I am not angry, I'm not sad.
I dunno what I'm feeling. Thatwould be the first stage of
like, yes. Normal shock, right?
Yeah . Of like, I know this is, um, because basically grief
is about helping us adapt to anew reality without that thing
that we lost. Whatever thatthing is Correct . Can be,
again , apparent. It can be abelief system. It can be,

(17:25):
again, so many things, right?
It can be a job, . It'slike, there's many ways that we
lost these things. Um, but withthat feeling right, then it ,
after that shock stages overyou can you suddenly start to
feel that sense of anger or ,um, or sadness, right? Of like
this, like finally overwhelmsyou of, oh my God. Like I, I

(17:48):
don't know, know what, whatwill happen? Because again, I
don't know what this newreality is, and it either me
off because I'm like, Idon't like this new reality.
Yeah . Or again, or, you know,you might be a more like, I
don't know what to do aboutthis reality. Yeah. And then
you might swing between both,right? Or some of us might
prefer to lean on anger becauseit's easier than to lean on

(18:10):
sadness. Uh , right. Sadnessbrings hopelessness. Mm-hmm
. Andhopelessness is a horrible
feeling, right? Mm-hmm . Where anger
feels active, anger feels like,ah , I wanna just burn down the
house. It's like, of course wecan do that. Right? Right . Um
, but it's not necessarilyright. Like symptoms , feelings
are complex like that. They ,they can be masking the other
feeling, right? Mm-hmm . Orsometimes with women, it has

(18:32):
been shown that we tend to usemore sadness than anger, right?
Because we don't want to bebad, we don't want to be seen
as threatening. So we're justmean depression of like, well,
there's nothing I can do.
Right? And then the anger getsrepressed. Hmm . So there's
dangers in those spaces, both.
Right. Either a, I over burnand I'm just like, again, not

(18:52):
feeling the sadness and justwanting to burn down the house
with no real, again ,self-awareness, right. Of , hey
, the , the reality is, is Ijust wanna curl in my bed and
cry and , and just know that itsucks to not be in control of
reality. Right? Yeah. Um , Ithink that's where, where it's
at, where you're like, I hatethis lack of control. Yeah . Um
, and then , you know, or thenagain, just you're so depressed

(19:15):
that you're not engaging withRight. The anger that you need
to engage with to set up aboundary and to be like, I'm
done. Like this is today.
Right. Like, we need that aswell. So I feel like that's why
self-awareness is so important,right? And when we were talking
about art earlier and how do weuse this? Yeah. I think that

(19:36):
the beauty, again, of imageryis that, again, one image says
more than a thousand words,right? Yes . And when people
say, I don't make art, so I'mgonna go back to that second
question that you posed earlierof like, Hey, I'm not an
artist. I don't know how to dothis. Well, let me tell you,
there's many ways to do artthat are not about skill. A an
art therapist would tell you, Idon't care how your art looks,
I just, that it expresses whoyou are, what you feel, and

(19:59):
where we're going, right?
Mm-hmm . Likethis is more about you being
you than you creating somethingbeautiful. I'm gonna hang on a
wall. Like, that's not how wesee art. Um, we see art more
as, again, as a self-expressiontool. And so when we're talking
about, Hey, I'm not talented, Idon't know what to do with
this, I would always start withcollage making is super easy.

(20:22):
Yeah. Mm-hmm .
You can just start with collageagain. If you have old
magazines, if you still do, ifyou're not into this digital
world that doesn't havemagazines anymore, that makes
me angry, by the way, back magazines. 'cause I need
to make collage. Yes . Right.
But , uh, anyhow, you canalways do collage. Collage
doesn't require talent. You'rejust cutting out imagery that
appeals to you. And in thiscase, I would tell you, Hey,

(20:43):
how am I feeling today? And youjust browse through images.
Mm-hmm . Youknow, and then just paste them
on a paper, and then just lookat it and see how that feels
for you. Okay. Right . How doesit feel to express a feeling
that it's not verbal? Mm-hmm . Yeah. Um,
right. That's a first approach.
I would be simple. A or youknow, you're doing digital. I'm
like, I'm all for it Right now.

(21:04):
I'm obsessed with Canva to makecollages mm-hmm .
Because now I have access toall the images that I want from
the web. Yeah . And I uploadthem to Canva mm-hmm
. And make my owncollages. Right? Yeah . And ,
or even use canvas's own imagesthat they have, like stock
photos. Uh , I just use itagain, I use , you can use the
free version and you'll havethe watermarks, but who cares?

(21:25):
Again, this is not about makingthis collage that's gonna go
anywhere. This is just for you.
Um, another exercise I've done,it's like I take that collage
from Canva and what I've donewith clients is like, I'm okay,
you did this. And I was like,now that you look at this, what
would you change in it? Andthen we copy paste that collage
and then like switch that,change that image now to

(21:46):
something that you feel hasshifted in you after putting
that first collage out. Andthen once you have that second
one, okay, what has shifted?
Let's create a third one. Andthen I just go, you know , 4,
5, 6, 7, 8. Right? Yeah . Andthen you start to see that
emotional shift, right? Becauseyou're using the imagery. And
then just kinda like taking asecond to be like , okay, once

(22:06):
it's out there, what would Ichange? And maybe to a point
where you're like, it's done.
Like I don't need to change itanymore . Mm-hmm . Right ? Like
, this is , I'm , I'm done withwhatever it is. But again, it's
a way to use images in a waythat you don't need this
talent, right? Mm-hmm . If not, you can
always use abstract, right?
Like, I love this exercise thatI call the emotional color
palette. And the way , what Itell people is, you know, you

(22:29):
fold your paper in four, so youhave, you know, fold it in
half, fold it in half. Again,you will have four squares on
your page, right? Once you havethat page, or even justified it
in four with two lines, , that's it . . Um, and
then what I suggest is like,you can just choose, have
colors in front of you. You cando markers, watercolor,

(22:51):
whatever is in front of you.
And then choose one color thatrepresents happiness for you
today. How does happiness looklike for you today? You know,
November 7th , it'slike, how is this looking for
you? Um, right. And then you goahead and then when you choose
that color, I'm like, you'regonna take that color on a
happy dance. So how doeshappiness move for you? Mm-hmm

(23:14):
. Right ? And soI'm like, that first square,
we're gonna do a happy dancewith this happy color. And, you
know, and usually again, if I'mworking with people who have no
experience with art making ,I'll guide them. I'll tell them
, like, for me, happiness movesis like, the move is energetic.
I'm thinking of myself jumpingon a dance floor 'cause I'm
happy. So I would be jumping upand down with my marker, right?

(23:34):
. And I'm like doingthe motions . Mm-hmm
. And then I'mlike, let's go to that second
square. Now we're gonna go withanger, right? Like, what color
is anger for you today? And howdoes anger move for you today?
Right? Mm-hmm .
So I'm like, okay. For me,anger is a very strong
movement. It's probably like, Iwanna punch someone in the
face, so I'm just gonna punchthis piece of paper. 'cause
that's what I would love. Like,this is how anger is feeling

(23:54):
for me today. Yeah. Thirdsquare we go with sadness. Same
thing. How does sadness movefor you? And sadness to me is a
very slow movement. It'sbarely, I'm barely grabbing my
marker. It's just kind of likeflowing everywhere. 'cause I
have no control. I just feellike I'm floating. Mm-hmm
. And then myfourth square would be

(24:15):
peacefulness. Mm-hmm . Or may I invite
even today hope. Right? Like ,what does peace or hope look
for you today? What color is itand how does peace or hope move
for you today? Um, right. Andfor me, peacefulness is a
repetitive movement, right?
It's, for me, it's likefollowing my breath. So I just
draw my breath, right? Mm-hmm . And I'm drawing

(24:37):
lines following my breath orcircles. Right? And so after we
do that exercise, I love justusually showing people that I'm
like, we're able to do this. Sofar nobody has told me, no, no

Lauren (24:50):
.

Nadia (24:50):
Because again, you're being very, very well guided ,
uh, at every step. And then I'mlike, well, congratulations.
You just became an artist,Uhhuh , right ? 'cause you
express yourself in color andmovement. And that's art
, right? That's basic 10 1 art. So I think that, you
know, if, if we're again,trying to cope right now as

(25:11):
creatives, as artists, andwe're feeling like I'm not like
creating, maybe I'm not likecreating my own type of art
that I usually do, but maybe Ican engage in a smaller art
exercise. Mm-hmm . That is not about me doing my
own art, but maybe just about,again, let me just do a collage
about how I'm feeling, right?
Mm-hmm . Yeah .
Just to check in on myself, notwith the idea or intention to,

(25:33):
again , to produce, but

Lauren (25:35):
Just

Nadia (25:35):
Be mindful self-awareness. Where am I
right now?

Lauren (25:39):
Yeah. Maybe it , it's , it doesn't need to be about
production, but it needs to beabout self-expression and
self-care , uh, so that youcan, because it sounds like,
you know, one of the moreimportant elements is, as you
said at the beginning , um, youconsider in a mirror mm-hmm
. And so it's, itseems like it's a constant
conversation that's having ,that's having. And that's sort

(26:01):
of , um, that's one of myfavorite aspects of art is
that, you know , um, even artyou don't make, you can stand
in front of and have aconversation with, or it'll,
it'll say something to youwithout you being aw . Like in
, you know, without you beingaware that , um, anything was
gonna happen when you just walkby. Um, and it has an impact on

(26:23):
you. Um, and so , you

Nadia (26:25):
Know what you made me think of now that we're saying,
like, I didn't wanna createyesterday. Right? Like , I , I
didn't either , but I noticed .
And then that's the other partof art, right? What do we
consume as artists ? Yeah. Andmaybe right now it's the time
to consume other people's art .
Mm-hmm . Right ?

Lauren (26:40):
Yeah. Yeah .

Nadia (26:42):
Comfort in a poem we seek, there's this beautiful
monologue , um, by , uh, EthanHawk about creativity.

Lauren (26:50):
I love that. I listen to that like all the time. Yeah
.

Nadia (26:53):
Oh my God. Me too . I love it. Right? And I love when
he says that, you know, like,we don't look at art until
we're feeling deep feelings.
Right? When something deephappens, that's when we turn to
a poem. That's when we look fora song. When we're so in love
with something, we're like, Ican't, like, I just, when my
feelings are overwhelming forme, I'll naturally turn to the

(27:13):
arts to feel that connection tothe other of like, I'm not the
only one experiencing this typeof experience. Yeah. Yeah. Be
it tense or, or be it beautifuland, you know, and just a
passionate moment. I think thatwe can also use this space to
maybe again, help spread thelove of other artists, right?

(27:33):
Yeah . Who are now creating allthese things. And maybe we just
kind like sharing that. Like,that is already you engaging in
creativity, right. Of reallyhelping elevate the voice. I
know yesterday I had like, Ifeel like I calmed down after I
found the one image. That's whyI went on social media. I was
like , look at all my artists.
Let's see who brings me thissense of making sense of the

(27:53):
world right now of what I'mholding. 'cause also for me, it
was holding space as a leader.
And what does that mean? Right?
Mm-hmm . And, and, and then I found this image
of, of , uh, poo hugging re . And it just said like
, um, I actually, I , I , Iwill , I will just share it.
'cause I just love the way itwas worded. It was just so

(28:15):
simple. 'cause I was like, I ,I was reading all these great
words and ideas and I was justlike, that's too much. I just
want, you know, simplicity.
Yeah . And it was like thesensitive urge to hold grief
and hope in the same hug.

Lauren (28:29):
Oh , yeah. Oh , right.
I think that that I, that, Imean, I can totally understand
why you stopped on that one,because I think that it's , um,
yeah, it's a , it's almost likebeing able to find the, the
space for your feelings, Ithink can be so tough sometimes

(28:51):
when things feel overwhelmingand too much. And that is the
power of art, right? Is, is Ifeel like the art is a way of
almost creating a whole nothervessel for you to contain
everything. You know, it , it,I don't know. Maybe it, it

(29:11):
helps you get thing . I , Imean, I know it helps you get
things out of your body, but Ifeel like it also makes more
room inside your heart and yoursoul and your mind for
everything that you'recurrently dealing with or that
you're carrying with you. Youknow? 'cause we all carry all
of our experiences with usthroughout our lives, you know?

(29:35):
Um , and yeah. So where

Lisa (29:37):
I'm going with it. Wait one second. I was , I like the
idea of like, theself-awareness is really about
expression. And when you'retalking about emotions, I think
a lot of people are fearful oftheir emotions. You know, they
don't wanna feel them,especially, you know, they
don't wanna feel grief. Theydon't wanna feel fear, but it's
within you. And I think when,what you're talking about that
exercise, when you get it outof you, you can look at it and
go, that's not so bad. That'snot like that . Yes . You know,

(30:00):
it's like, it's like anxiety.
You know? If you put it out ona paper and you're like, what ?
You know, we used to do thelittle, the little, what was
that? The little troll. We usedto do workshops and we'd have
have people draw their innercritic, right? And what does
that little guy look like? Youknow what I mean? And usually
he's really small and he isreally like non-threatening.
But somehow in our imagination,we blow it up. So it's really

(30:23):
about releasing, beingself-aware and releasing that
emotion and going, oh, you'renot so bad. Do you know what I
mean?

Lauren (30:30):
So I , yeah. I feel like it , I gives you like a ,
and maybe it is, maybe it ,maybe it's that , um, it's like
the middle person art becomesthe middle person between your,
your like front self, you know,your conscious self, and then
the , that other self that's alittle bit scared and so, or,

(30:52):
or mad or like just big right?
No matter the feeling. And soyou can, you can have a
conversation with it safely,like you were saying, Lisa,
because if you, if you get itout and you put it on paper, or
you collage it, or you find animage that sort of represents
it in the moment, then you canstop and take a breath and then

(31:12):
you can have a conversationwith it . And then , um, you
can continue down that path.
Um, I just like , yeah, goahead.

Nadia (31:23):
I was thinking like, you know, what you were both saying
of like, creativity is kind oflike a, a less threatening way
to deal with the emotion or todeal with the difficulty.
'cause it's a buffer, right? Itserves as this like dis it's a
distancing way to expresssomething. Even just thinking
about it like symbolically,right? Like if you're like, I

(31:44):
can't connect to this, but if Itransform it into something
else, if it's, again, if it'snow a figurine, then it already
is less threatening. It'salready, and it can be also an
engaging and fun process increating this, so that
also already is decreasing thatsensation of like, overwhelm

(32:04):
that can feel being in the self

Lauren (32:07):
. Yeah. Well, I think , I think what you do is
you take that step , um, youknow, out of the unknown,
right? Right. Because whenyou're feeling lots of feelings
all at the same time, andthey're intense, it's, you feel
out of control, like youmentioned. Right? And so then
when you add an heartbreak inthere right? Or some sort of

(32:28):
process in there, then you can,you can take that step and it
be you. For me, I become morecurious as opposed to fearful.
Right? Because, because thenyou're, you're like, oh, I,
'cause you're always gonnasurprise yourself even even
like Lisa and myself, right? Wedo it all the time. And , um,

(32:48):
even when I do an art break ,I'm , I still am like, oh, I
wonder why I did that. And thenyou can just kind of go down
that, or you're askingquestions rather than, I think
it's like you become morecurious instead of judgemental
. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm . Like , you're
not, you're not judgingyourself. Like for, for over

(33:09):
overreacting or being toosensitive or , um, you know,
just any, 'cause that's, wealways have outside things
coming in. And, and so thisallows, I think maybe it allows
you an opportunity to reallyhave a quiet conversation with
yourself, right. Withoutoutside , um, interpretations

(33:30):
coming in, you know? But Istill like, am like, and just
like you were saying, like I ,my favorite people are the
people who are like, no,thanks. Um, and so it's like, I
really hope that afterlistening to this conversation,
people are more curious aboutwhat it might do for them. And
they , um, I think you're twoexercise suggestions are really

(33:50):
kind of easy to dive into. Eventhe one where you search for an
image that represents howyou're currently feeling. I, I
love that dive into the artworld. 'cause you might
discover an artist you've nevereven heard of, you know, or a
song, or a poem or a story ,uh, or something like that.

(34:12):
Yeah.

Nadia (34:13):
Yeah. Like what, what we consume, right? As as, I mean,
just going to an art show rightnow, it's like I I feel
like just having that sense ofconnecting with the others,
right. Who are at the sameshow, it's already showing that
we have some sense ofconnection. Mm-hmm . And, you
know, when we're going throughdifficulties, I think that
there's so much power incommunity, right. Of like,
just, just being with, with,with your people. Just being

(34:36):
with where you're like, I justcan be right now and we can be
together . Yeah . Ithink that there's that power,
right? Because of that symbolthat the art represents. Right
. And it can bring us thatagainst self-awareness of who
we are, right? Yeah . You know,when you see those art pieces,
it's usually not about theartist also. Right? You will

(34:56):
come in and project all ofthese things . Yeah .
And maybe the creator is like,yeah, that was not my intention
.

Lauren (35:02):
. That was like ,

Nadia (35:03):
No , that was not what I was grad , but okay. That's ,

Lauren (35:05):
Yeah. That's actually one of my favorite things to do
is like , um, I always, I neverfigured out how to do it, but I
always dreamt of sort of beinga fly on the wall during, like,
so that I wasn't in the roomand people were looking at my
art because they didn't want meto add that extra sort of
interjection of what it shouldbe about. You know? Because I

(35:26):
do, I love, I love the idea ofsomeone , um, coming in and,
and telling me what my work isabout, because that's what it's
about. Right? Whatever you'recurrently , uh, experiencing
is, is what the work is about.
You know? Um ,

Nadia (35:43):
The art is a mirror, right? So if it serves as a
mirror, it can be a mirror ofthe creator, but also of the
witness, like of, of thewitness of the creation, right?
Of like, oh, what, what do Ineed to see right now? And I
might see some imagery and itmight represent for me
something very different right.
Because of where I'm, yeah . Imean, even there's, you know,
art that you probably love thatyou see, and that depending on

(36:04):
how you are, it'll have adifferent meaning. Oh,

Lauren (36:07):
For sure. Yeah.

Nadia (36:08):
Art that you even yourself. And that's a
self-awareness that I loveabout, you know, just having
art be part of your journey toexpress yourself. Um, because I
love art journaling. So for meit's like art journaling. I've,
I've studied and researched alot as an art therapist because
I think it's a great process todocument your life. But the
cool thing is, is that you goback to art and you find new

(36:31):
meaning in it where mm-hmm . Where you were
like, oh my God, back then Idid not see this. And it was
clear . So clear and I couldnot see it back then. Right.
Or, which doesn't happen with awritten journal. 'cause with a
written journal, it's written,it is what it is. Right? Yeah.
And may , I may find some otherinterpretation, but I feel with
like, with just with art , youalways get that surprised of

(36:51):
like, I expressed this thing Iwasn't aware of, right? Yeah .
And now I am aware or now I'mable to see it, right? And then
that means that somethingchanged in me. It means that
something transformed so that Ican have a higher awareness,
even of my own art. Or again,someone else's art where you're
like, oh, I hadn't seen itthrough that lens. Right. Of

(37:13):
if, if, again, if I seewhatever art show, I will have
my thoughts about it. But then,you know, there's art that I
didn't appreciate and then nowI fully love and appreciate.
Right. I remember going youngto like and going
to the Guggenheim Museum andbeing like, what is this? This
is so

Lisa (37:29):
Insane .

Nadia (37:30):
Some art . Anybody could have done that . Right?
I was like, a kid could havedone this. Right. Right. Going
back 20 years later as anadult, and I loved it. I was
like, oh my God. The power oflike expressing and being an
existing and showing us thedimensions, of what art
can mean and . Right? SoI feel like I would be probably

(37:52):
kicking my adolescent self,like, shut up, you're a teacher
.

Lisa (37:55):
.

Nadia (37:56):
. I

Lisa (37:57):
Love it. I love it. It's all about like activating your
own inner art therapist. Right?
That's what we're talkingabout. And it seems like a
really safe space if art isyour mirror and art makes you
more self-aware. It's not likeit's, for me, I don't , it's
not scary, but for that personwho thinks it's scary, I think
we need to give them some wordsof wisdom as they're
activating their own inner art

Lauren (38:18):
Therapist. I , yeah.
Well I'm thinking that like ,um, you know, someone who is,
is sort of being , um, likeyour adolescent self and being
like, no, you know, like da dah, dah , dah , dah . Um, first
of all, I would try to convincethat person to go to their
local art center or museum andjust walk around and, and stop

(38:41):
at something that calls tothem. Right. And attempt to
have a quiet conversation withthat. You know, in their mind.
I think that could be like agood first step for folks that
aren't even willing to put pento paper or cramon to paper.
Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Um, and if
you're, if you're not willingto do that, then maybe go
outside. You know, if , ifyou're too, if you're too

(39:02):
fearful of going to an artcenter or an art museum, or
don't have access to one, thengo outside and, you know, turn
yourself in like a circle andstop at the thing that that may
, you know, gives you the mostattention or just calls to you
the most and look at it forlonger than you usually would.
Right. Because I feel likethat's when you can kind of

(39:24):
start having a conversationwith something. And that's,
it's that why question that youwere asking before. Like, why
did I stop here? What is itabout this? You know? And then
just start the conversationthere. I feel like those could
be two good sort of stepstowards, and then I would
please, please at some pointget a paper and start actually

(39:44):
create something.

Nadia (39:45):
Yeah . You know what , actually there's research , um
mm-hmm . Youknow, so 'cause you know, like,
so our therapists, for those ofof you who are hearing and
don't know , it's like, so ourtherapy, we're a regulated
mental health profession andwe're trained in psychology and
then we're trained in art. Andso we kinda like have both
worlds, right? So we do a lotof, again, like there's science
behind a lot of what makes anart therapist and our

(40:06):
therapist. Uh, so we navigate,again, two worlds that seem of
posting , but in our world,they're not .
And so that , that's a funnypart about our profession. Um,
but I think that, you know,it's like research shows that
if you go to a museum, there'san experience and you change
done. Right? Like we've alldone it. But when you make art
after that experience, likeafter the museum, if you're

(40:27):
like in the museum invites youlike, Hey, make some art about
like response art, about likewhat you just saw. How do you
feel? How did this thing, thenit showed that 40% of attendees
had a higher impact of whatthey experienced in the museum.
Like, this will be anexperience that will stay with
them for a long period of timecompared to just going and

(40:48):
being like, ah , like I went tothe Holocaust Museum and it was
impactful and wow. And then Ileft. Right? And maybe, you
know, the feeling stuck with mefor a week and then I was out
of it and then moved to thenext thing in a week is even a
longer time period of time.
Yeah. However you invite tolike, Hey, let's sit down.
Like, how do you think, what ,how did this make you feel?
Mm-hmm . Let's,you know, let's, let's express
it on paper. Um, then there'sthat sense of like, oh, let me

(41:12):
sit down with this information.
Let me hold on. Particularly ina world where we are all like
living in a hundred miles anhour because Right . Technology
is rushing us to go a thousandmiles an hour. Hold on a
second. Go to, you know, go toagain to a local museum, engage
in something that you've neverengaged in and just sit down

(41:32):
with that experience. How wasthat for you, , right ?
How was it to go into the, Idon't know, the Native American
museum, history Museum, right?
Mm-hmm . And sit down withlike, you know, indigenous art
and what do you think thesepeople were experiencing when
they created that? What doesthat art mean to them? What
does it mean to you to see thatart? Right. And just sitting

(41:53):
with it for a little while justto really, again, gain that
self-awareness of what doesthis experience mean to me?
Yeah . Then I can take that,right? Even going to the
Natural History Museum, like,you don't need to go to an art
museum again, if it's toothreatening, just go and look
at the dinosaur gigantically inthe middle of the room and what
does that mean to you and whatfeelings that evoke in you.

(42:14):
Does it bring you memories ofyour childhood loving
dinosaurs? Right. Or , or doesit bring you no memories of you
going to a field trip and like,looking at the guy that you
kinda liked and or no . Or theboy that you were like into and
just like, Hey, . It'slike, I remember that, right?
Like, it brings me thosememories mm-hmm . Because we
all have experiences indifferent spaces and just

(42:37):
connecting back to how is thattime for me? Right? If I was
again, a prepubescent like,like cute boy, what was that
for me like back then? Right.
And, and what could I tell thisyounger self of like, you're
being so cute and youknow, and brave. 'cause you

(42:57):
took the, you know, the courageof talking to this boy. Uh, and
you talked about dinosaurs andit had an impact right. On you.
'cause you took that courageousstep of going for what you
wanted. Right. And just kindalike congratulating that little
girl for doing that. Right. Forbeing courageous. So that can
be even an experience of itsown. And again, it doesn't have
to be kind of , again, verycreative. And if you feel again

(43:19):
that you're like, I can drawand I can take a paper. I was
like, Hey, just look for animage that represents it.
. Just going phone andGoogle an image of like, boy
meets girl or girl meets girlor boy meets boy. And you know,
and like, and see what imageappeals to you that reflects
that same feeling that, thatyou're wanting to express.
Right? Like, allow anotherartist to mirror that for you

(43:43):
if you're feeling at first thatyou don't, and then maybe copy
it. Maybe you can littledrawing right of it for
yourself. . Mm-hmm . Sthreatening . It's okay. Yeah .
Just start with that one step.
. You

Lauren (43:56):
Gotta just start. Yeah, totally .

Lisa (43:58):
Let's do it .

Lauren (43:59):
Let's , awesome. Thank you so much for taking the time
to talk to us today.

Nadia (44:04):
Hey , no , absolutely.
My, my pleasure. Um , it'salways great to talk to, to
creatives. I, I love it.
. I feel home. Good . Ithink

Lisa (44:13):
People a lot of resources too, and tools. So thank you
for that. That was awesome . Of

Nadia (44:17):
Course. Absolutely.
That's what we are here for prevention. It's where
it's at. . There

Lisa (44:22):
You go . And just do it.
. Yeah .