February 10, 2023 • 35 mins
Art is Moving chats with John Brandon Sills about how he personally moves through fear to make his art and how you can do it too. For more from John, visit: http://johnbrandonsillsfineart.com/
Learn more about the Take an Art Break Movement on the Art is Moving website here.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Okay.
Got it.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Okay.
We are here.
Yay.
We made
Speaker 1 (00:08):
It.
.
Alright
Speaker 3 (00:09):
For us.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Yay.
So this is Lauren and Lisa fromArt Movie and this is our first
podcast of 2023.
We're really excited cuz we haveJohn Brandon here, um, from the
East Coast.
And John, tell us a little bitabout yourself and what is this
John Brandon, the story behindthat.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
Well, my name's John Brandon Sills.
I'm a professional artist livingin Baltimore.
Born and raised here.
Been a professional artist over30 years, maybe coming on 35
now.
Just crazy in and of itself.
Um, story about the John Brandonwas, when I first started my
career, I was going by JohnSills and then my brother got
(00:49):
married and my, uh, mom's maidenname is Brandon.
And all my aunts and cousins whowere probably in their eighties
by this time, all of about, youknow, five feet tall, got in a
circle around me and they're allmy grandfather's nieces and
(01:09):
stuff.
And, and we're doing that.
You get your talent from theBrandon side of the family,
.
You have to use Brandon in yourname.
And Oh wow.
They were terrifying.
So ever since then I've beenJohn Brandon Sills.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Oh, that's good.
Way to respect your family andyour elder.
That's good.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
That's good.
It felt like survival at thetime.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
, we can call
it respect now.
Um,.
So, uh, like we always do, wealways have a question that we
start with, um, asking, andtoday we wanted to ask you, um,
how can art help you get throughfear?
And so just roll with it and seehow that goes.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
I mean, I find art, I mean, it brings me back to my
concept of art, which is thatit's an experience mm-hmm.
and it's anexpression, and the experience
originates and generates frommyself.
Okay.
And, um, that if I want toenlarge and expand and be, be
genuine with my art, then I haveto look within myself.
(02:10):
Mm-hmm.
for thatinspiration, for that source,
for that truth.
Mm-hmm.
.
And during that process, or thebeat, the, the fundamental
aspect of that process was, thefirst thing I had to do was
recognize how afraid I was.
Mm.
Uh, and it goes back long beforeI was an artist, it was a, it
(02:31):
was a learned response, youknow, a Pavlovian response.
There's things you're taughtwhen you're a kid that you don't
even know you're being caught.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
.
And there were things like, I'mnot good enough.
I don't deserve, I'm not one ofthose people.
Um, not me.
Any type of, any form of selfnegation.
And, uh, I've had a meditativepractice for 25 years now.
(02:54):
And, um, that process ofquieting the mind, going within,
going within and, um, torecognize that much of my life
was based on fear.
Mm-hmm.
, you know, it was,it was based on the fear of loss
or the fear of not getting, butfear was the fundamental energy
of whatever it was I was doing.
(03:15):
Thinking, feeling, believing.
Um, and I read in a book onetime, fear is false evidence
appearing real.
Yes.
And, um, so for me to say, ifthat's false, then well then
what's true?
And, um, to first allow my fearto not dictate my experience,
(03:36):
fear is that which negatescontrols are limit.
It says, I won't, it can't notme.
Mm-hmm.
You know, and, uh, which speaks,uh, which is false.
It's just false.
Yeah.
And, um, the ultimate, I can'tsay the ultimate, that's a
little dramatic, um, but one ofthe primary experiences I had
(03:59):
was, this would've been maybeabout 2010, um, in 2009, my
fiance passed away from cancer.
And, uh, so in that periodafterward, I was doing a lot of
meditating, dealing with grief,dealing with wealth, dealing
with fear.
You know, a lot of, you know,what do I do now?
Yeah.
You know, all the plans justwent.
(04:19):
Yeah.
Right.
And, um, in one of mymeditations I was using as the
fundamental inquiry, thestatement from the Judeo
Christian text, let it be doneunto you as you believe.
Hmm.
And looking at that as if thatis a statement of truth, if that
is a statement of the nature ofcreation, you know, my creative
(04:42):
essence, well then what do Ibelieve about me?
Really?
Now, what do I tell myself?
I believe about me.
I'm great.
And doesn't everybody wish theywere me?
You know, rather, what do Ireally believe truly?
And so I sat with that and, um,one of the first things I
(05:02):
believed was I was gonna have toteach to make a living because I
wasn't good enough to make itfrom the sales.
And that was an accuraterepresentation of what my life
was at that time.
That was exactly my life.
I had to teach to make it.
And, um, for me it's always, theinquiry is like, well, why do I
believe that?
(05:23):
Mm-hmm.
, and in, in goingdeeper and deeper.
And, and you know, I, I believerevelation is like digging a
well and you remove everythingbetween you and the water.
It's a process of removal, notof doing, doing, doing.
Mm-hmm.
.
Right.
And, um, but why do I believethat?
And I knew I was talented.
(05:45):
I could draw, I could paint, um,but I didn't believe I was
creative.
Mm-hmm.
, that was theunderlying issue.
I knew I had talent, but Ididn't believe I was creative.
So at that time, I painted likeMonet or Georges or John Singer,
Sergeant, I painted like themmm-hmm.
.
Cause if they were good then, orthey were good, if I could paint
(06:10):
like them, then I'm good.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
But underneath that was the realization that they
were good because they werebeing themselves
Speaker 2 (06:19):
,
Speaker 3 (06:19):
They were being genuine, they were being
authentic.
And when I looked at that, I gotdown to what I said just a
moment ago that I knew I wastalented, but I didn't believe I
would treat
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
, that
if I painted a John Brandon Sils
, nobody would like it.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Hmm.
Ah,
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Yeah.
I didn't that.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
Yeah.
I didn't have a voice that wouldinspire others, would motivate
others, was uniquely my own.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Mm-hmm.
.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Um, and that was the fundamental belief I had about
me.
I could draw, I could paint, butI wasn't cream.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
I wanna interject.
What is, what, in your inquiry,what did creativity mean to you?
Like, if you could define it forour audience or for like, what
is creativity or what is it tobe creative
Speaker 3 (07:11):
For me in my current belief system mm-hmm.
, creativity is theexpression of my essence, my
truth, my reality, my being acapital m you know, not the
mental gyrations of salt societyculture or what have you mm-hmm.
, but rather theessence of my truth.
(07:33):
Um, uh, my nature, if you will.
True nature.
Again, not all the nature ofthings that I was told by
whoever that made up all theideas about, you know, that
comes after the phrase.
I'm the kind of person thatmm-hmm.
, you know,anything that came after that to
me was, um, false.
It was a construct.
(07:53):
It wasn't, I like to say that I,I lived from all these old ideas
and when I looked at it, Irealized none of'em were my
ideas.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
were
Speaker 3 (08:02):
Other people's ideas that I just chose to believe
because Okay.
If you'd say so, that's the wayit's
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Uhhuh.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Yeah.
And to move out of that, thatthere is a way that it is,
there's no way in particular soand so ask myself what is it I
desire?
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Hmm.
Now
Speaker 3 (08:20):
If, if this realm, this duality is about
manifesting desires andexperiences, which there's a
realm beyond that, but at thislevel, um, what is it I desire?
And I was looking at art, art,the general, and I felt like a
lot of it was about drama deur.
(08:41):
People were painting problems,people were painting their
angst.
And I felt like anybody canpaint a problem and anyone can
paint their personal angst, butit takes an artist to paint a
solution.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
I like
Speaker 3 (08:53):
That.
You know, I think, think that's,
Speaker 2 (08:55):
I I, I have to argue with that.
I actually don't think a lot ofpeople can paint their angst and
their stuff like that.
I mean, because what, what Ifind interesting about this
conversation is most of thepeople that we run into and the
work that we do are theopposite.
They, um, are, they're worriedabout the talent aspect of it.
And I'm finding thisconversation really interesting
(09:16):
cuz it was almost like you'relike, I can do all that.
I just can't almost touch thatsource of, uh, my myself.
Right.
Um, this, it feels like you hadto go through this journey of
self-awareness in order to reachthat spot where you, it's
almost, you know, in art school,they would probably talk about
finding your style.
Right.
That was sort of what I alwaysstruggled with in art school, is
(09:39):
that I, I had no idea what mystyle was.
I, I still really kind of don't,um, I think I'm the type of
person that's always on a sortof this mission of
self-discovery.
And so maybe I'll never, I'llnever get there.
But I, I do, I don't thinkactually a lot of people can,
um, I think a lot of people areafraid, like you were saying, I
think they're afraid of theirown fear and their own angst,
(10:03):
and so they're not, you know,willing to almost touch that you
, does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Yeah.
I, well, I mean, again, that'sthe part about where fear is
constricting and fear limits.
Mm-hmm.
, you know, the,the courage to move through the
fear.
Um, and sometimes, you know, andat this point, you, I, again, my
fiance pass away before I met mycurrent beautiful, amazing,
wonderful kind of girlfriend.
And, uh, so it was a very darktime.
(10:33):
And, uh, it was a time of, of ofdeep self reflection.
And, um, and so to get to those,you know, the essence of how do
you move through fears, firstoff, what am I afraid of?
Why?
And am I willing to at least tryto move through?
And what occurred, it's funnyyou should say that, that what
occurred with the, uh, the restof this experience was sitting
(10:57):
in that meditation, recognizingthat I was afraid I wasn't
creative.
Mm-hmm.
, um, meaning thatI could inspire and touch
others.
Um, the mantra that came throughis the answer is yes.
You know, that no is not in theuniverse of vocabulary we
invented.
No.
That if I believe it, the answeris yes.
(11:19):
And so that has been my mantraever since.
Um, but having a mantra ismeaningless unless I put it in
action.
Yeah.
So what I did the very next daywas go down to my studio, get
the largest canvas I had, andjust paint.
I, I did this, I brushed myteachers off my shoulders,
, and I was as authenticas I could.
(11:41):
And my style changed radically.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
,
Speaker 3 (11:45):
You know, but not by, by intellectualizing and
figuring out my style justbecame, it was, it was authentic
beingness.
I just let my hand move on thecanvas mm-hmm.
mm-hmm.
without anyparticular reason why.
It just felt genuine, you know?
And I didn't worry about why Ishould do this first, and then I
(12:05):
show this compositionalarrangement is blah, blah, blah.
I just, you know, was sort ofthat emptiness you hear about
in, in, in many meditations andspiritual practice and then just
allowed it to happen.
You know?
Which is a nice word, because byallowing it to happen, I'm
saying I'm not, the fear wouldbe what I'm not gonna do that.
(12:27):
I'm gonna do this.
Cause this is proven, it's sortof stepping into the unknown.
It's, for me, it was a profoundact of faith in whatever you
choose to call it.
I have no, you know, the, thedao that can be named is not the
eternal Now
Speaker 2 (12:43):
you.
Yeah.
So go ahead Lisa.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
I'm sorry.
Cause I've been through loss andgrief too, and it's an abyss,
it's something you don't knowuntil you, you touch it.
Do you feel, feel like thecracked you open to, to be, to
have courage?
Um, do and do you think youcould have got there without
that loss?
Speaker 3 (13:02):
I think it provided the opportunity.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Um, but there's no, I mean, it really comes down to
personal choice, I believe.
Yeah.
Do I choose to use this toenlarge and go deeper, or do I
use this to do something likewrong?
You know, maybe grab anotherrelationship to try and feel
better.
So I think that time of quietreflection, you know, uh, a form
of a rigorous self honest
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Mm-hmm.
.
Right.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
What do I really believe?
Speaker 2 (13:32):
I think it's interesting that you, um, you
say that you're, uh, like thatmost people kind of, uh, at the
time or most artists arepainting their, or portraying, I
guess their, their angst almosttheir fear mm-hmm.
and, and you'reattempting to jump to move
beyond that mm-hmm.
and get to the, sothe solution.
(13:53):
So you're, it seems to me thatyou're trying to represent what
it looks like to, um, movebeyond fear.
Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (14:04):
That's what it is for me in my personal experience.
And one thing to add to that isthat in this meditation, my
fiance came through Oh wow.
And she made the statement, weare one, we can never be
separate.
Hmm.
Wow.
And so that became what I chooseto paint the solution oneness.
(14:24):
Oh, wow.
And that's, that's how my stylechanged, because before it was
all these very standardimpressionists looking plan air
paintings.
And then the problem became washow, how does one get rid?
How does one paint oneness?
Right.
This is the artistic challengeof the creativity.
How do you do that?
And the, the experience thatcame out of this, and the, the
(14:45):
decision I made came to me afterI just started painting, was,
will you remove everything thatseparates, it's not by adding
something, but it's by theremoval of it.
Mm-hmm.
.
And so what did I do?
I started removing edges.
Okay.
Because edges separate.
And so the, the, the sky blendedinto the trees.
The trees blended into the land,and it became an expression of
(15:09):
oneness.
And as I observe the world in myown personal belief system,
that's the solution.
All the problems we have arisefrom believing that separation.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Right.
Or believing we need to separatethings in the categories and
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Laser, which not function of the mind.
The mind does that on itself.
Mm-hmm.
, you know, themine needs to be able to tell
the difference between the grassand the lion's face.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Right, right, right.
Right.
, yes, please.
Yeah.
Right.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
So in that sense, it's, it has, it has a purpose.
Yeah.
It's just being, shall we say,used for, um, aspects for which
it was not intent.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Yeah.
So I find this interestingbecause a, it's all, you know, a
a lot of it is, would you saythat, it seems to me that it's
like you are going through thisprocess of meditation, but also
of like ponderance.
It's almost like you, youmeditate, you make art, and then
you ponder about it, and thenyou meditate.
(16:10):
You make more art because you'restill very, the process still
feels very thought based to me.
Because you're saying, youlooked at it and you're like,
Nope, it's still separate.
So I need to, I need to do, Ineed to take the work further.
I need to take my work, mypersonal work further, and then
take the physical reflection ofthat further in terms of the
(16:32):
painting.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
That certainly happened as I chose to pursue
this style.
Ok.
You know, but again, this stylesimply emerged.
Mm-hmm.
, I had a concept,I had a vision of a, of
something I had seen in like1997 or something, but I'd never
painted it.
Cause I classified myself andlimited myself as I'm a planner
(16:54):
artist.
Mm-hmm.
.
So that means I have to be onlocation, blah, blah, blah.
All the, all the, you know,constrictions that come from
that.
So in this experience, I wentdown to the studio and I just
painted that scene.
You know, I had, I couldvisualize it in my head.
So I just started painting.
Didn't turn out exactly likevisualization, but it was the
(17:16):
moving through the fear of Ineed a reference, um mm-hmm.
, I can't just makethings up out of my head.
I'm not that good.
Um, if I'm genuine.
And, and, and, uh, authentic, itwon't inspire people.
And again, the funny thing aboutit was the paint.
The painting was so large.
I had to, my art school, mystudio was in an art school, you
(17:40):
know, art dog classes mainly.
And the painting was so big thatI had to do it in the main
classroom.
And everyone kept coming upgoing, that's different for you
Speaker 2 (17:50):
.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
And of course you're like, eh, different, good.
Different, you know.
So every day it was, am I gonnacommit to this?
Am I gonna commit to this?
And uh, and then after that,there was the con contemp
contempt aspect.
The, uh, what now aspect that Ialways think that, I'll say that
, uh, creativity is alwaysanswering the question.
(18:13):
Now what?
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Now, Uhhuh?
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Oh yeah.
I've done this Now what uhhuh.
And, uh, my old ideas were,well, you go from here to there.
Yeah.
And that there are no parametersto the, there are no specific
answers or better answers tothat question.
I then the other thing that isinteresting is that having seen
the, the, the, the pieceemerging from me, if you will,
(18:39):
it's then the process ofassigning meaning.
What does it mean?
Meaning.
And that in my past I about, Ihad been told what things mean.
Yeah.
This occurs, it means that youdo this, it means the other
thing.
Mm-hmm.
and coming intothe space of infinite creation
is that meaning is something Imake up.
(19:00):
Meaning is not intrinsic, butrather is a creation that I
impose past ideas, upbringing,religious concepts, whatever.
I oppose that on the experiencerather than allowing the meaning
to evolve for myself.
And that brought me back to leftof my own devices.
(19:22):
I'm bad.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Oh boy.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
You know, that if I come up with it, it's gotta be
bad.
It has to be evil or whatevernegative connotation that I
can't find a written beautifullight in myself.
I am not the light, I amanything but the light.
Uh, and to allow myself to bethe light.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
So is is that like a constant thing that you have to
constantly focus on?
Or do you feel like you're therenow?
Right.
Is it something that creep?
I would say my back and forth.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
I would say my manifestation, shall we say
inconsistent
Speaker 2 (20:00):
.
Okay.
I mean, my next,
Speaker 3 (20:03):
I don't do it perfectly, but I think
imperfection is part ofperfection.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
The fact that, you know, we want to judge even the
idea of perfection itself is ajudgment.
Cause the idea
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Oh, for sure.
Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Yeah.
Because it includes this, butnot that.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Right.
Right.
But the,
Speaker 3 (20:21):
You know, the isness contains all of it, the light
and the mm-hmm.
and, uh, to again,to remove judgment.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
Foundation.
And the idea of I know, I know,I know, I know.
See omnipotent of playing.
God,
Speaker 1 (20:38):
I, it's, it's a beautiful conversation.
I'm curious about, um, cuz yousaid creativity is inspiration.
So the people that now do yourwork and collect your work, do
they get that?
Or is it kind of like a, asubtle revelation for them?
Or do they know that Wow, thisis, I'm, I'm, I'm witnessing
unity consciousness on somelevel
Speaker 3 (20:59):
They do.
Cuz I don't have a problemtalking about it.
Um, generally the way I hear it,and I'm sure many other artists,
and hopefully there are manyother artists, listen, listening
mm-hmm.
generally have itreferred to.
There's just something about it.
.
There's just something there.
And I heard a friend of minesay, when the divine shows up,
since we, I have no word for it.
(21:21):
We call it something.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
I like that
Speaker 3 (21:24):
Something happened.
And, uh, and so I hear that alot.
And I have people, you know,friends of mine and collectors
who, um, we have thesediscussions, uh, but they felt
it right away.
It's when we seek to, to labelit with a word that they began
to default.
I provided the word.
And again, the word doesn'tdefine it's, you know, again,
(21:46):
the now that can be named is notthe eternal vow.
We get hung up on the word.
Right.
The word is just an attempt todescribe it doesn't actually
define it.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Mm-hmm.
.
Right.
And you're, you're moreinterested in the experience
that someone has at that moment.
They see something.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
Right?
Yeah.
I'm more interested that theycan go within themselves, feel
it, recognize it, to recognize,to know, again, as themself, and
then carry that experience whenthey go outside Right.
And live in the world.
Right.
That they no longer experienceor perceive themselves as
separate from anything else.
(22:23):
Hmm.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Okay.
So, yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
No, no.
I'll just say it would changethe nature of my experiences
with you.
Right.
Because if I see you as me, whywould I wanna do anything
negative or harmful?
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Mm-hmm.
.
That's right.
That's the, that's the oneness.
So the one, what would you,yeah, what would you say to
someone who, um, has recognizedthe fact that there's sort of
operating in a world of fear,um, with their work or lack
thereof, uh, work.
(22:56):
What would be maybe an initialstep they could take?
Speaker 3 (23:01):
I would, that's why I like the mantra.
The answer is yes.
Mm-hmm.
, you know, cuz it,it provided me a certain degree
of comfort.
Um, again, this is all sort of afaith ba, faith-based
experience.
So, um, that if I take theaction, because that's generally
(23:23):
the final, uh, building block tomoving through fear, is then
putting that faith, that belief,whatever you wanna call it.
Inaction.
I had to go down and paint my,my very first firefly paint.
I had to go do that.
You know, because then that,what I'll call the spirit
spiritual experience is mademanifest, meaning it appears in
(23:45):
a physical form, you know, and Ican see it and others can
interact with it.
But the, the experience ofpainting it is the self
realization that the fear isfalse.
But I can't e experience thefalseness of a fear until I put
something else into action.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Okay.
So it requires like, because Ithink that it's, we encounter a
lot of people who won't evenlike, kind of pick up that
pencil, pick up that marker out.
They, they.
Right.
So, um, and so we've made up,we've, we've created art breaks
that don't even involve pen ormarker or paper or drawing.
It's more of like, um, lookingfor shapes in nature, uh, and
(24:34):
listening.
Right.
Turning the world around youinto an orchestra.
Um, you know, like what if, whatif someone is not even
willing to do that action?
We're always, I'm always askingthis question because I'm always
curious and it's, and it is,it's like you can think of it in
an art way.
You can also think of it in apersonal way.
And I, I guess I'm answering myown question when it's like, if
(24:56):
you're not ready to do it, it'sprobably not gonna happen.
I mean, is there a solution?
Is it
Speaker 3 (25:01):
Education?
Well, I mean, you say I, if yousay you can't, you can't.
Right.
Words are creative.
You're a creative entity, youknow, you are.
That which is manifest is whatwe call physical.
If your word is creative, um, ifyou're not willing, then I guess
the question is, and this iswhere the self-inquiry, well why
mm-hmm.
, why am I notwilling?
(25:22):
You know, and then it's usuallywhat it was usually for me was a
fundamental fear about whatothers would think.
Judgment and, okay.
Mm-hmm.
.
The other thing was, if I giveit my everything and what if
it's bad, what if it concernconfirms all those negative
(25:42):
concepts I have about myself,you know?
Right.
What if it doesn't inspirepeople?
You know?
And so be willing to move intothat.
And it, it's a tremendouslycourageous act.
It's, um, but you can do it inthe choir of your own room.
Nobody ever has to see it.
.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
I it's for me, what you're facing is your own
self-judgment.
And we are our own, like, we're,we're really cruelty ourselves.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
So mean.
So
Speaker 1 (26:13):
You have to confront that.
I think that's what you'retalking about, that judger,
which resides, or that innercritic we call it.
Right.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
Right.
The obstacles I place over it,you know, when I say digging a
well, you know, when I'm digginga well to get the water, the
water's already there.
Yes.
You know, the taking the actiondoesn't create the water.
What I did was the removal ofI'm not good enough.
It won't work.
They won't like it, I won't makemoney.
And even every one of those wasa shovelful of fear, doubt,
(26:42):
insecurity, inferiority.
I am not, it won't, you know,and it can be terrifying.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
Um, yet my experience of it is that having made that
effort and continuing to do itmm-hmm.
, um, the resultsare beyond script.
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
.
And to experience the truth ofmy being, to sit in meditation
and see that white light andrecognize it as self is there,
(27:12):
there aren't words for it.
But it changed my relationshipto this entire realm of doing
mm-hmm.
that love is notsomething I'd seeking.
Love is what I,
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Ooh.
I like that.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
Me too
Speaker 3 (27:27):
.
And so that when I dug to thedepth of myself through these
fear, what I found was love.
What we call love again, there'sno word for it.
There is Buddha consciousness,whatever you choose to mm-hmm.
, no worddescribed.
There's the saying is no thoughtis reached at no tongue's tongue
.
Mm-hmm.
.
But it is what I am.
(27:48):
And that, that is the onenessthat we are all that.
And so the benefit for me andothers have done for me is maybe
I'm seeking and, but I don'thave to seek alone.
And I can sit with someone andthey can say, I see you.
And since I don't doubt theirlove for me, I can use that to
(28:11):
enlarge my courage and en andput myself in action.
Because I believe in what youtold me, not what I told myself.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
That's beautiful.
I'm gonna answer your question alittle bit, Lauren.
Cause what you're hint at Johnis that if you can just taste
that, that nectar of love, whichdoes doesn't have a word.
I mean, your life willtransform.
So if I'm fear-based and I knowthat's out there, you know what
I mean, that I can just, I canjust even touch it for a moment
(28:41):
in time.
I mean, that would be the, thesolution or the reward to just
take action, take an art break,create.
Right.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
I like, yeah.
I like the aspect of like, ifyou can't even get yourself to
take an heartbreak, becausethere is so much fierce
surrounding art for a lot ofpeople, um, that to ask
yourself, why, why are you a,why are you afraid of a marker
and a piece of paper?
Why are you afraid of a pen?
(29:09):
Um, and then just it's the whyletter.
Right.
You just constantly askyourself, why.
Well, why.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
And even while, even while you're alone, why are you
afraid?
Speaker 2 (29:17):
?
Yeah.
Right, right.
Cause uhhuh Yeah.
I mean,
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Ability to burn it.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
Yeah,
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Yeah, yeah.
Rip it apart man, and then putit back together.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
And now I have to acknowledge that in an earlier
phase of my life, I loved mydrama.
I love the Oh, oh, I'm thetortured artist.
Oh, I loved it.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
You know.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
Well, how are you today, John?
Well, let me tell you.
, you know, it wasdelicious.
Yeah.
It's just when I got tired of itYeah.
Mm-hmm.
It became stale and I just, itthat inner just, I, I was done.
You know?
And so I had a friend of minetalking about spiritual seeking.
(30:05):
He used to say, um, my friend,um, Stan would always say, it's
easy to surrender when there'snothing left to defend
Speaker 2 (30:14):
.
That's interesting.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:16):
Just that idea of, I don't, it was such a fight.
It was, it took so much energyand uh, I just didn't wanna do
it anymore.
Yeah.
And, uh, but the interestingpart was that when I, I changed
my mind, I am this, I am notthat.
That's where the mind can play arole in this mm-hmm.
.
Mm-hmm.
.
Um, and I saw it, a path wasalready there.
(30:39):
It's just the mind that saysthat's not the path.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
Mind that says, if you go down that path, you could
be hurt, you could be harmed,something horrible could occur.
You know, it's all a play of themind.
Yeah.
And, uh, so it's the mind thatprevents the hand from moving
across the path, you know?
Yeah.
But art doesn't come from themind.
Art originates and won't be.
I, I call the heart and moves upand it's shepherded by the
(31:06):
intellect.
Mm-hmm.
.
Now, is this line long enough?
Is that value dark enough?
But it doesn't determine.
Right.
So we speak of, you talked aboutan artist.
Inspiration.
Welcome comes from a Latininspiration comes from a Latin
in spirit.
Cause it means in the spirit,.
So an artist inspiration is whatI call a spiritual experience.
(31:27):
Mm-hmm.
.
Mm-hmm.
.
It's not a thing.
We think art is painting.
Dr.
Drawing, uh, poetry, music,film.
We call'em the arts.
You know, art is an experiencethat is manifested, express,
pushed out as painting poetry.
But the art is within oneself.
(31:49):
It is.
We could call it our nature, ourbeingness.
We are art.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
Oh, for sure.
That's, yeah.
Right up your alley, Lisa.
And I, I think that what I, whatI, my favorite, one of my
favorite things about, um, likeart, it just popped into my
head, is that it's a, cuz Itotally, I'm interesting art,
art as uh, an experience right.
Is I'm, I'm all about that.
But it's something that issomething that can happen over
(32:17):
and over and over and overagain.
Right.
Cuz you have this experience,you put it out on a canvas,
someone walks in, they look atthat canvas, they have
experience, they carry that withthem the rest of their lives.
And then there's this just webof art and experience is just
going over and over and overagain.
And that I think is the truepower of art, right?
Mm-hmm.
Is the fact that it's just this,it's neverending experiences.
(32:40):
Right.
Because of someone willing tonot be afraid and share their
true self.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
Right.
You know, I mean, cuz one of myfavorite, uh, greatest
influences his ca art.
So before they were businessmen.
Before they were politicians,before there were countries,
before there were religions,there were artists.
Yep.
Right.
You know, this, this innateaspect of the human being to
(33:09):
express, to express itself, tocommunicate.
Cause art is a mean tocommunication.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
.
So I, I, when I was teaching, Iwould ask my students, what are
you trying to say,
Speaker 2 (33:19):
?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
Mm-hmm.
and, uh, and, andsee clarity on that.
So it has a, I would call it aninfinite nature cuz here we have
art from 45,000 year years ago,still inspiring and creating all
today.
Right.
Um, but today I would define itas timeless because it's always
experienced in the eternalmoment of now there is no time
(33:43):
to now.
Mm.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
It simply is.
And so it fundamentally, it camedown to me answering the
question, what am I?
Who am I?
And I got to that question byremoving and releasing all that.
I am not.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
I like that.
Ok.
Wow.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
When I think of the Cape paintings, I think of, you
know, when they put their handson the walls, they said, I'm
here.
And that's for me, what I'mcircling this conversation is
art is really the revelationthat I am here in my true,
authentic self.
And to have the courage to, tostand in that is really brave.
You know, I am very
Speaker 3 (34:23):
Brave and we all have it.
And what we do act to theoneness.
Say you feel, you lack thatcourage.
I stand next to you and say, Iseek courage.
I'll stand here with you whileyou find your courage.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Wow.
I love
Speaker 3 (34:36):
That.
And the love grows and the lovegrows and the love grows because
the oneness.
It's not me helping you.
There is no you to help.
But I see myself in you.
You see yourself in me.
And I've moved through thesefears.
I will stand with you while youmove through you because it is
just a construction of the mind.
It is false.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
I think that's what we as artists moving is are
really doing.
That's why we exist.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
.
.
I love it.
This right?
Yeah.
Wow.
Um, thank you so much, uh, fortaking the time to talk to us
today.
Not at all.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
It's
Speaker 2 (35:11):
A pleasure.
I feel like I could talk to youfor like, um, the rest of the
day, but for
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Infinity we're
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Infinity
Speaker 3 (35:18):
For now.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Well
Speaker 3 (35:20):
Thank you so much for being willing to have me on and,
and overcoming any doubts orfears or whatever you might have
had about having this unknownguy on here.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Speaker 3 (35:29):
Love.
It's been a great.
Okay.
Got it.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Okay.
We are here.
Yay.
We made
Speaker 1 (00:08):
It.
Alright
Speaker 3 (00:09):
For us.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Yay.
So this is Lauren and Lisa fromArt Movie and this is our first
podcast of 2023.
We're really excited cuz we haveJohn Brandon here, um, from the
East Coast.
And John, tell us a little bitabout yourself and what is this
John Brandon, the story behindthat.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
Well, my name's John Brandon Sills.
I'm a professional artist livingin Baltimore.
Born and raised here.
Been a professional artist over30 years, maybe coming on 35
now.
Just crazy in and of itself.
Um, story about the John Brandonwas, when I first started my
career, I was going by JohnSills and then my brother got
(00:49):
married and my, uh, mom's maidenname is Brandon.
And all my aunts and cousins whowere probably in their eighties
by this time, all of about, youknow, five feet tall, got in a
circle around me and they're allmy grandfather's nieces and
(01:09):
stuff.
And, and we're doing that.
You get your talent from theBrandon side of the family,
You have to use Brandon in yourname.
And Oh wow.
They were terrifying.
So ever since then I've beenJohn Brandon Sills.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Oh, that's good.
Way to respect your family andyour elder.
That's good.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
That's good.
It felt like survival at thetime.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Um,
So, uh, like we always do, wealways have a question that we
start with, um, asking, andtoday we wanted to ask you, um,
how can art help you get throughfear?
And so just roll with it and seehow that goes.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
I mean, I find art, I mean, it brings me back to my
concept of art, which is thatit's an experience mm-hmm.
originates and generates frommyself.
Okay.
And, um, that if I want toenlarge and expand and be, be
genuine with my art, then I haveto look within myself.
(02:10):
Mm-hmm.
for that truth.
Mm-hmm.
And during that process, or thebeat, the, the fundamental
aspect of that process was, thefirst thing I had to do was
recognize how afraid I was.
Mm.
Uh, and it goes back long beforeI was an artist, it was a, it
(02:31):
was a learned response, youknow, a Pavlovian response.
There's things you're taughtwhen you're a kid that you don't
even know you're being caught.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
And there were things like, I'mnot good enough.
I don't deserve, I'm not one ofthose people.
Um, not me.
Any type of, any form of selfnegation.
And, uh, I've had a meditativepractice for 25 years now.
(02:54):
And, um, that process ofquieting the mind, going within,
going within and, um, torecognize that much of my life
was based on fear.
Mm-hmm.
or the fear of not getting, butfear was the fundamental energy
of whatever it was I was doing.
(03:15):
Thinking, feeling, believing.
Um, and I read in a book onetime, fear is false evidence
appearing real.
Yes.
And, um, so for me to say, ifthat's false, then well then
what's true?
And, um, to first allow my fearto not dictate my experience,
(03:36):
fear is that which negatescontrols are limit.
It says, I won't, it can't notme.
Mm-hmm.
You know, and, uh, which speaks,uh, which is false.
It's just false.
Yeah.
And, um, the ultimate, I can'tsay the ultimate, that's a
little dramatic, um, but one ofthe primary experiences I had
(03:59):
was, this would've been maybeabout 2010, um, in 2009, my
fiance passed away from cancer.
And, uh, so in that periodafterward, I was doing a lot of
meditating, dealing with grief,dealing with wealth, dealing
with fear.
You know, a lot of, you know,what do I do now?
Yeah.
You know, all the plans justwent.
(04:19):
Yeah.
Right.
And, um, in one of mymeditations I was using as the
fundamental inquiry, thestatement from the Judeo
Christian text, let it be doneunto you as you believe.
Hmm.
And looking at that as if thatis a statement of truth, if that
is a statement of the nature ofcreation, you know, my creative
(04:42):
essence, well then what do Ibelieve about me?
Really?
Now, what do I tell myself?
I believe about me.
I'm great.
And doesn't everybody wish theywere me
You know, rather, what do Ireally believe truly?
And so I sat with that and, um,one of the first things I
(05:02):
believed was I was gonna have toteach to make a living because I
wasn't good enough to make itfrom the sales.
And that was an accuraterepresentation of what my life
was at that time.
That was exactly my life.
I had to teach to make it.
And, um, for me it's always, theinquiry is like, well, why do I
believe that?
(05:23):
Mm-hmm.
And, and you know, I, I believerevelation is like digging a
well and you remove everythingbetween you and the water.
It's a process of removal, notof doing, doing, doing.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
And, um, but why do I believethat?
And I knew I was talented.
(05:45):
I could draw, I could paint, um,but I didn't believe I was
creative.
Mm-hmm.
I knew I had talent, but Ididn't believe I was creative.
So at that time, I painted likeMonet or Georges or John Singer,
Sergeant, I painted like themmm-hmm.
Cause if they were good then, orthey were good, if I could paint
(06:10):
like them, then I'm good.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
But underneath that was the realization that they
were good because they werebeing themselves
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Speaker 3 (06:19):
They were being genuine, they were being
authentic.
And when I looked at that, I gotdown to what I said just a
moment ago that I knew I wastalented, but I didn't believe I
would treat
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
, nobody would like it.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Hmm.
Ah,
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Yeah.
I didn't that.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
Yeah.
I didn't have a voice that wouldinspire others, would motivate
others, was uniquely my own.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Um, and that was the fundamental belief I had about
me.
I could draw, I could paint, butI wasn't cream.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
I wanna interject.
What is, what, in your inquiry,what did creativity mean to you?
Like, if you could define it forour audience or for like, what
is creativity or what is it tobe creative
Speaker 3 (07:11):
For me in my current belief system mm-hmm.
truth, my reality, my being acapital m you know, not the
mental gyrations of salt societyculture or what have you mm-hmm.
(07:33):
Um, uh, my nature, if you will.
True nature.
Again, not all the nature ofthings that I was told by
whoever that made up all theideas about, you know, that
comes after the phrase.
I'm the kind of person thatmm-hmm.
me was, um, false.
It was a construct.
(07:53):
It wasn't, I like to say that I,I lived from all these old ideas
and when I looked at it, Irealized none of'em were my
ideas.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Speaker 3 (08:02):
Other people's ideas that I just chose to believe
because Okay.
If you'd say so, that's the wayit's
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Uhhuh
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Yeah.
And to move out of that, thatthere is a way that it is,
there's no way in particular soand so ask myself what is it I
desire?
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Hmm.
Now
Speaker 3 (08:20):
If, if this realm, this duality is about
manifesting desires andexperiences, which there's a
realm beyond that, but at thislevel, um, what is it I desire?
And I was looking at art, art,the general, and I felt like a
lot of it was about drama deur.
(08:41):
People were painting problems,people were painting their
angst.
And I felt like anybody canpaint a problem and anyone can
paint their personal angst, butit takes an artist to paint a
solution.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
I like
Speaker 3 (08:53):
That.
You know, I think, think that's,
Speaker 2 (08:55):
I I, I have to argue with that.
I actually don't think a lot ofpeople can paint their angst and
their stuff like that.
I mean, because what, what Ifind interesting about this
conversation is most of thepeople that we run into and the
work that we do are theopposite.
They, um, are, they're worriedabout the talent aspect of it.
And I'm finding thisconversation really interesting
(09:16):
cuz it was almost like you'relike, I can do all that.
I just can't almost touch thatsource of, uh, my myself.
Right.
Um, this, it feels like you hadto go through this journey of
self-awareness in order to reachthat spot where you, it's
almost, you know, in art school,they would probably talk about
finding your style.
Right.
That was sort of what I alwaysstruggled with in art school, is
(09:39):
that I, I had no idea what mystyle was.
I, I still really kind of don't,um, I think I'm the type of
person that's always on a sortof this mission of
self-discovery.
And so maybe I'll never, I'llnever get there.
But I, I do, I don't thinkactually a lot of people can,
um, I think a lot of people areafraid, like you were saying, I
think they're afraid of theirown fear and their own angst,
(10:03):
and so they're not, you know,willing to almost touch that you
, does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Yeah.
I, well, I mean, again, that'sthe part about where fear is
constricting and fear limits.
Mm-hmm.
fear.
Um, and sometimes, you know, andat this point, you, I, again, my
fiance pass away before I met mycurrent beautiful, amazing,
wonderful kind of girlfriend.
And, uh, so it was a very darktime.
(10:33):
And, uh, it was a time of, of ofdeep self reflection.
And, um, and so to get to those,you know, the essence of how do
you move through fears, firstoff, what am I afraid of?
Why?
And am I willing to at least tryto move through?
And what occurred, it's funnyyou should say that, that what
occurred with the, uh, the restof this experience was sitting
(10:57):
in that meditation, recognizingthat I was afraid I wasn't
creative.
Mm-hmm.
others.
Um, the mantra that came throughis the answer is yes.
You know, that no is not in theuniverse of vocabulary we
invented.
No.
That if I believe it, the answeris yes.
(11:19):
And so that has been my mantraever since.
Um, but having a mantra ismeaningless unless I put it in
action.
Yeah.
So what I did the very next daywas go down to my studio, get
the largest canvas I had, andjust paint.
I, I did this, I brushed myteachers off my shoulders,
(11:41):
And my style changed radically.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Speaker 3 (11:45):
You know, but not by, by intellectualizing and
figuring out my style justbecame, it was, it was authentic
beingness.
I just let my hand move on thecanvas mm-hmm.
It just felt genuine, you know?
And I didn't worry about why Ishould do this first, and then I
(12:05):
show this compositionalarrangement is blah, blah, blah.
I just, you know, was sort ofthat emptiness you hear about
in, in, in many meditations andspiritual practice and then just
allowed it to happen.
You know?
Which is a nice word, because byallowing it to happen, I'm
saying I'm not, the fear wouldbe what I'm not gonna do that.
(12:27):
I'm gonna do this.
Cause this is proven, it's sortof stepping into the unknown.
It's, for me, it was a profoundact of faith in whatever you
choose to call it.
I have no, you know, the, thedao that can be named is not the
eternal Now
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Yeah.
So go ahead Lisa.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
I'm sorry.
Cause I've been through loss andgrief too, and it's an abyss,
it's something you don't knowuntil you, you touch it.
Do you feel, feel like thecracked you open to, to be, to
have courage?
Um, do and do you think youcould have got there without
that loss?
Speaker 3 (13:02):
I think it provided the opportunity.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Um, but there's no, I mean, it really comes down to
personal choice, I believe.
Yeah.
Do I choose to use this toenlarge and go deeper, or do I
use this to do something likewrong?
You know, maybe grab anotherrelationship to try and feel
better.
So I think that time of quietreflection, you know, uh, a form
of a rigorous self honest
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
What do I really believe?
Speaker 2 (13:32):
I think it's interesting that you, um, you
say that you're, uh, like thatmost people kind of, uh, at the
time or most artists arepainting their, or portraying, I
guess their, their angst almosttheir fear mm-hmm.
beyond that mm-hmm.
(13:53):
So you're, it seems to me thatyou're trying to represent what
it looks like to, um, movebeyond fear.
Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (14:04):
That's what it is for me in my personal experience.
And one thing to add to that isthat in this meditation, my
fiance came through Oh wow.
And she made the statement, weare one, we can never be
separate.
Hmm.
Wow.
And so that became what I chooseto paint the solution oneness.
(14:24):
Oh, wow.
And that's, that's how my stylechanged, because before it was
all these very standardimpressionists looking plan air
paintings.
And then the problem became washow, how does one get rid?
How does one paint oneness?
Right.
This is the artistic challengeof the creativity.
How do you do that?
And the, the experience thatcame out of this, and the, the
(14:45):
decision I made came to me afterI just started painting, was,
will you remove everything thatseparates, it's not by adding
something, but it's by theremoval of it.
Mm-hmm.
And so what did I do?
I started removing edges.
Okay.
Because edges separate.
And so the, the, the sky blendedinto the trees.
The trees blended into the land,and it became an expression of
(15:09):
oneness.
And as I observe the world in myown personal belief system,
that's the solution.
All the problems we have arisefrom believing that separation.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Right.
Or believing we need to separatethings in the categories and
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Laser, which not function of the mind.
The mind does that on itself.
Mm-hmm.
the difference between the grassand the lion's face.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Right, right, right.
Right.
Yeah.
Right.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
So in that sense, it's, it has, it has a purpose.
Yeah.
It's just being, shall we say,used for, um, aspects for which
it was not intent.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Yeah.
So I find this interestingbecause a, it's all, you know, a
a lot of it is, would you saythat, it seems to me that it's
like you are going through thisprocess of meditation, but also
of like ponderance.
It's almost like you, youmeditate, you make art, and then
you ponder about it, and thenyou meditate.
(16:10):
You make more art because you'restill very, the process still
feels very thought based to me.
Because you're saying, youlooked at it and you're like,
Nope, it's still separate.
So I need to, I need to do, Ineed to take the work further.
I need to take my work, mypersonal work further, and then
take the physical reflection ofthat further in terms of the
(16:32):
painting.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
That certainly happened as I chose to pursue
this style.
Ok.
You know, but again, this stylesimply emerged.
Mm-hmm.
something I had seen in like1997 or something, but I'd never
painted it.
Cause I classified myself andlimited myself as I'm a planner
(16:54):
artist.
Mm-hmm.
So that means I have to be onlocation, blah, blah, blah.
All the, all the, you know,constrictions that come from
that.
So in this experience, I wentdown to the studio and I just
painted that scene.
You know, I had, I couldvisualize it in my head.
So I just started painting.
Didn't turn out exactly likevisualization, but it was the
(17:16):
moving through the fear of Ineed a reference, um mm-hmm.
I'm not that good.
Um, if I'm genuine.
And, and, and, uh, authentic, itwon't inspire people.
And again, the funny thing aboutit was the paint.
The painting was so large.
I had to, my art school, mystudio was in an art school, you
(17:40):
know, art dog classes mainly.
And the painting was so big thatI had to do it in the main
classroom.
And everyone kept coming upgoing, that's different for you
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Speaker 3 (17:51):
And of course you're like, eh, different, good.
Different, you know.
So every day it was, am I gonnacommit to this?
Am I gonna commit to this?
And uh, and then after that,there was the con contemp
contempt aspect.
The, uh, what now aspect that Ialways think that, I'll say that
, uh, creativity is alwaysanswering the question.
(18:13):
Now what?
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Now, Uhhuh?
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Oh yeah.
I've done this Now what uhhuh
And, uh, my old ideas were,well, you go from here to there.
Yeah.
And that there are no parametersto the, there are no specific
answers or better answers tothat question.
I then the other thing that isinteresting is that having seen
the, the, the, the pieceemerging from me, if you will,
(18:39):
it's then the process ofassigning meaning.
What does it mean?
Meaning.
And that in my past I about, Ihad been told what things mean.
Yeah.
This occurs, it means that youdo this, it means the other
thing.
Mm-hmm.
is that meaning is something Imake up.
(19:00):
Meaning is not intrinsic, butrather is a creation that I
impose past ideas, upbringing,religious concepts, whatever.
I oppose that on the experiencerather than allowing the meaning
to evolve for myself.
And that brought me back to leftof my own devices.
(19:22):
I'm bad.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Oh boy.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
You know, that if I come up with it, it's gotta be
bad.
It has to be evil or whatevernegative connotation that I
can't find a written beautifullight in myself.
I am not the light, I amanything but the light.
Uh, and to allow myself to bethe light.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
So is is that like a constant thing that you have to
constantly focus on?
Or do you feel like you're therenow?
Right.
Is it something that creep?
I would say my back and forth.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
I would say my manifestation, shall we say
inconsistent
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Okay.
I mean, my next,
Speaker 3 (20:03):
I don't do it perfectly, but I think
imperfection is part ofperfection.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
The fact that, you know, we want to judge even the
idea of perfection itself is ajudgment.
Cause the idea
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Oh, for sure.
Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Yeah.
Because it includes this, butnot that.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Right.
Right.
But the,
Speaker 3 (20:21):
You know, the isness contains all of it, the light
and the mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
Foundation.
And the idea of I know, I know,I know, I know.
See omnipotent of playing.
God,
Speaker 1 (20:38):
I, it's, it's a beautiful conversation.
I'm curious about, um, cuz yousaid creativity is inspiration.
So the people that now do yourwork and collect your work, do
they get that?
Or is it kind of like a, asubtle revelation for them?
Or do they know that Wow, thisis, I'm, I'm, I'm witnessing
unity consciousness on somelevel
Speaker 3 (20:59):
They do.
Cuz I don't have a problemtalking about it.
Um, generally the way I hear it,and I'm sure many other artists,
and hopefully there are manyother artists, listen, listening
mm-hmm.
There's just something about it.
There's just something there.
And I heard a friend of minesay, when the divine shows up,
since we, I have no word for it.
(21:21):
We call it something.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
I like that
Speaker 3 (21:24):
Something happened.
And, uh, and so I hear that alot.
And I have people, you know,friends of mine and collectors
who, um, we have thesediscussions, uh, but they felt
it right away.
It's when we seek to, to labelit with a word that they began
to default.
I provided the word.
And again, the word doesn'tdefine it's, you know, again,
(21:46):
the now that can be named is notthe eternal vow.
We get hung up on the word.
Right.
The word is just an attempt todescribe it doesn't actually
define it.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Mm-hmm.
Right.
And you're, you're moreinterested in the experience
that someone has at that moment.
They see something.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
Right?
Yeah.
I'm more interested that theycan go within themselves, feel
it, recognize it, to recognize,to know, again, as themself, and
then carry that experience whenthey go outside Right.
And live in the world.
Right.
That they no longer experienceor perceive themselves as
separate from anything else.
(22:23):
Hmm.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Okay.
So, yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
No, no.
I'll just say it would changethe nature of my experiences
with you.
Right.
Because if I see you as me, whywould I wanna do anything
negative or harmful?
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Mm-hmm.
That's right.
That's the, that's the oneness.
So the one, what would you,yeah, what would you say to
someone who, um, has recognizedthe fact that there's sort of
operating in a world of fear,um, with their work or lack
thereof, uh, work.
(22:56):
What would be maybe an initialstep they could take?
Speaker 3 (23:01):
I would, that's why I like the mantra.
The answer is yes.
Mm-hmm.
of comfort.
Um, again, this is all sort of afaith ba, faith-based
experience.
So, um, that if I take theaction, because that's generally
(23:23):
the final, uh, building block tomoving through fear, is then
putting that faith, that belief,whatever you wanna call it.
Inaction.
I had to go down and paint my,my very first firefly paint.
I had to go do that.
You know, because then that,what I'll call the spirit
spiritual experience is mademanifest, meaning it appears in
(23:45):
a physical form, you know, and Ican see it and others can
interact with it.
But the, the experience ofpainting it is the self
realization that the fear isfalse.
But I can't e experience thefalseness of a fear until I put
something else into action.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Okay.
So it requires like, because Ithink that it's, we encounter a
lot of people who won't evenlike, kind of pick up that
pencil, pick up that marker out.
They, they.
Right.
So, um, and so we've made up,we've, we've created art breaks
that don't even involve pen ormarker or paper or drawing.
It's more of like, um, lookingfor shapes in nature, uh, and
(24:34):
listening.
Right.
Turning the world around youinto an orchestra.
Um, you know, like what if, whatif someone is not even
willing to do that action?
We're always, I'm always askingthis question because I'm always
curious and it's, and it is,it's like you can think of it in
an art way.
You can also think of it in apersonal way.
And I, I guess I'm answering myown question when it's like, if
(24:56):
you're not ready to do it, it'sprobably not gonna happen.
I mean, is there a solution?
Is it
Speaker 3 (25:01):
Education?
Well, I mean, you say I, if yousay you can't, you can't.
Right.
Words are creative.
You're a creative entity, youknow, you are.
That which is manifest is whatwe call physical.
If your word is creative, um, ifyou're not willing, then I guess
the question is, and this iswhere the self-inquiry, well why
mm-hmm.
(25:22):
You know, and then it's usuallywhat it was usually for me was a
fundamental fear about whatothers would think.
Judgment and, okay.
Mm-hmm.
The other thing was, if I giveit my everything and what if
it's bad, what if it concernconfirms all those negative
(25:42):
concepts I have about myself,you know?
Right.
What if it doesn't inspirepeople?
You know?
And so be willing to move intothat.
And it, it's a tremendouslycourageous act.
It's, um, but you can do it inthe choir of your own room.
Nobody ever has to see it.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
I it's for me, what you're facing is your own
self-judgment.
And we are our own, like, we're,we're really cruelty ourselves.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
So mean.
So
Speaker 1 (26:13):
You have to confront that.
I think that's what you'retalking about, that judger,
which resides, or that innercritic we call it.
Right.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
Right.
The obstacles I place over it,you know, when I say digging a
well, you know, when I'm digginga well to get the water, the
water's already there.
Yes.
You know, the taking the actiondoesn't create the water.
What I did was the removal ofI'm not good enough.
It won't work.
They won't like it, I won't makemoney.
And even every one of those wasa shovelful of fear, doubt,
(26:42):
insecurity, inferiority.
I am not, it won't, you know,and it can be terrifying.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
Um, yet my experience of it is that having made that
effort and continuing to do itmm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
And to experience the truth ofmy being, to sit in meditation
and see that white light andrecognize it as self is there,
(27:12):
there aren't words for it.
But it changed my relationshipto this entire realm of doing
mm-hmm.
Love is what I,
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Ooh.
I like that.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
Me too
Speaker 3 (27:27):
And so that when I dug to thedepth of myself through these
fear, what I found was love.
What we call love again, there'sno word for it.
There is Buddha consciousness,whatever you choose to mm-hmm.
There's the saying is no thoughtis reached at no tongue's tongue
.
Mm-hmm.
But it is what I am.
(27:48):
And that, that is the onenessthat we are all that.
And so the benefit for me andothers have done for me is maybe
I'm seeking and, but I don'thave to seek alone.
And I can sit with someone andthey can say, I see you.
And since I don't doubt theirlove for me, I can use that to
(28:11):
enlarge my courage and en andput myself in action.
Because I believe in what youtold me, not what I told myself.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
That's beautiful.
I'm gonna answer your question alittle bit, Lauren.
Cause what you're hint at Johnis that if you can just taste
that, that nectar of love, whichdoes doesn't have a word.
I mean, your life willtransform.
So if I'm fear-based and I knowthat's out there, you know what
I mean, that I can just, I canjust even touch it for a moment
(28:41):
in time.
I mean, that would be the, thesolution or the reward to just
take action, take an art break,create.
Right.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
I like, yeah.
I like the aspect of like, ifyou can't even get yourself to
take an heartbreak, becausethere is so much fierce
surrounding art for a lot ofpeople, um, that to ask
yourself, why, why are you a,why are you afraid of a marker
and a piece of paper?
Why are you afraid of a pen?
(29:09):
Um, and then just it's the whyletter.
Right.
You just constantly askyourself, why.
Well, why.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
And even while, even while you're alone, why are you
afraid?
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Yeah.
Right, right.
Cause uhhuh Yeah.
I mean,
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Ability to burn it.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
Yeah,
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Yeah, yeah.
Rip it apart man, and then putit back together.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
And now I have to acknowledge that in an earlier
phase of my life, I loved mydrama.
I love the Oh, oh, I'm thetortured artist.
Oh, I loved it.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
You know.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
Well, how are you today, John?
Well, let me tell you.
Yeah.
It's just when I got tired of itYeah.
Mm-hmm.
It became stale and I just, itthat inner just, I, I was done.
You know?
And so I had a friend of minetalking about spiritual seeking.
(30:05):
He used to say, um, my friend,um, Stan would always say, it's
easy to surrender when there'snothing left to defend
Speaker 2 (30:14):
That's interesting.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:16):
Just that idea of, I don't, it was such a fight.
It was, it took so much energyand uh, I just didn't wanna do
it anymore.
Yeah.
And, uh, but the interestingpart was that when I, I changed
my mind, I am this, I am notthat.
That's where the mind can play arole in this mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and I saw it, a path wasalready there.
(30:39):
It's just the mind that saysthat's not the path.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
Mind that says, if you go down that path, you could
be hurt, you could be harmed,something horrible could occur.
You know, it's all a play of themind.
Yeah.
And, uh, so it's the mind thatprevents the hand from moving
across the path, you know?
Yeah.
But art doesn't come from themind.
Art originates and won't be.
I, I call the heart and moves upand it's shepherded by the
(31:06):
intellect.
Mm-hmm.
Now, is this line long enough?
Is that value dark enough?
But it doesn't determine.
Right.
So we speak of, you talked aboutan artist.
Inspiration.
Welcome comes from a Latininspiration comes from a Latin
in spirit.
Cause it means in the spirit,
So an artist inspiration is whatI call a spiritual experience.
(31:27):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
It's not a thing.
We think art is painting.
Dr.
Drawing, uh, poetry, music,film.
We call'em the arts.
You know, art is an experiencethat is manifested, express,
pushed out as painting poetry.
But the art is within oneself.
(31:49):
It is.
We could call it our nature, ourbeingness.
We are art.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
Oh, for sure.
That's, yeah.
Right up your alley, Lisa.
And I, I think that what I, whatI, my favorite, one of my
favorite things about, um, likeart, it just popped into my
head, is that it's a, cuz Itotally, I'm interesting art,
art as uh, an experience right.
Is I'm, I'm all about that.
But it's something that issomething that can happen over
(32:17):
and over and over and overagain.
Right.
Cuz you have this experience,you put it out on a canvas,
someone walks in, they look atthat canvas, they have
experience, they carry that withthem the rest of their lives.
And then there's this just webof art and experience is just
going over and over and overagain.
And that I think is the truepower of art, right?
Mm-hmm.
Is the fact that it's just this,it's neverending experiences.
(32:40):
Right.
Because of someone willing tonot be afraid and share their
true self.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
Right.
You know, I mean, cuz one of myfavorite, uh, greatest
influences his ca art.
So before they were businessmen.
Before they were politicians,before there were countries,
before there were religions,there were artists.
Yep.
Right.
You know, this, this innateaspect of the human being to
(33:09):
express, to express itself, tocommunicate.
Cause art is a mean tocommunication.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
So I, I, when I was teaching, Iwould ask my students, what are
you trying to say,
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
Mm-hmm.
So it has a, I would call it aninfinite nature cuz here we have
art from 45,000 year years ago,still inspiring and creating all
today.
Right.
Um, but today I would define itas timeless because it's always
experienced in the eternalmoment of now there is no time
(33:43):
to now.
Mm.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
It simply is.
And so it fundamentally, it camedown to me answering the
question, what am I?
Who am I?
And I got to that question byremoving and releasing all that.
I am not.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
I like that.
Ok.
Wow.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
When I think of the Cape paintings, I think of, you
know, when they put their handson the walls, they said, I'm
here.
And that's for me, what I'mcircling this conversation is
art is really the revelationthat I am here in my true,
authentic self.
And to have the courage to, tostand in that is really brave.
You know, I am very
Speaker 3 (34:23):
Brave and we all have it.
And what we do act to theoneness.
Say you feel, you lack thatcourage.
I stand next to you and say, Iseek courage.
I'll stand here with you whileyou find your courage.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Wow.
I love
Speaker 3 (34:36):
That.
And the love grows and the lovegrows and the love grows because
the oneness.
It's not me helping you.
There is no you to help.
But I see myself in you.
You see yourself in me.
And I've moved through thesefears.
I will stand with you while youmove through you because it is
just a construction of the mind.
It is false.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
I think that's what we as artists moving is are
really doing.
That's why we exist.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
I love it.
This right?
Yeah.
Wow.
Um, thank you so much, uh, fortaking the time to talk to us
today.
Not at all.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
It's
Speaker 2 (35:11):
A pleasure.
I feel like I could talk to youfor like, um, the rest of the
day, but for
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Infinity we're
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Infinity
Speaker 3 (35:18):
For now.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Well
Speaker 3 (35:20):
Thank you so much for being willing to have me on and,
and overcoming any doubts orfears or whatever you might have
had about having this unknownguy on here.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Speaker 3 (35:29):
Love.
It's been a great.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.