July 16, 2024 • 25 mins
Anger has been on the rise for the last several years. Erica Curtis, LMFT, ATR-BC noticed this in her own community and her own research. Knowing that she can people manage anger, she felt as though that maybe there are other things we need to do with anger - express it, harness it, soothe it, have a conversation with it and so much more. Check out her recent book, "Working Through Anger Creatively," that inspired this conversation. Check out the book and more from Erica at https://therapywitherica.com/books-articles/
Learn more about the Take an Art Break Movement on the Art is Moving website here.
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Episode Transcript
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Lisa (00:02):
Hello, this is
Lisa and Lauren from Artist
Moving . We're really, reallyexcited today. We have Erica
Curtis with us. Erica ,introduce yourself and who you
are and why are you here?
Erica (00:13):
It's good to be here with both of you. So I'm a
licensed marriage and familytherapist. I'm also a board
certified art therapist, and Ido a lot of speaking. I have a
private practice where I workwith clients, and I'm also an
author. And I know that youboth were interested in my
recent book called Working withAnger Creatively. So I think
(00:34):
we're gonna dig into that alittle bit today. Yeah,
Lauren (00:37):
Yeah. Let's jump off the question of , um, how can
art help you work throughanger? Because , um, when we
saw your new book, we were justlike, oh, what a question that
everybody probably needs tothink about a little bit more.
Right, right,
Erica (00:51):
Right. Absolutely. Well, so I mean , I could , I could
spend hours on this onequestion, but I mean, you know
, I was thinking about this andin a nutshell, I think two
things really stand out to me.
You know, one is there's a lotof inherent qualities, just
natural qualities that art andart making has. And one of them
is that it's naturallyexpressive, but it's also
(01:12):
naturally containing. And angeris one of those emotions that's
particularly volatile. And Idon't just mean eruptive, it
can also shut us down. So itcould take us either direction,
right? That energy can build upreally fast, right? Or we can
collapse and sort of, you know,put the cap on it and then numb
it, but then it's underneaththe surface, but we're not
feeling it. Right? And then itcan come out in these little
(01:35):
ways. And so anger really needsa lot of space, both for
expression, right? Safeexpression, but also a lot of
containment. So what I mean bythat is, I mean, I think it's
intuitive that art isexpressive. We're expressing
ourselves, we're takingsomething from within ourselves
and putting it outside ofourselves, right? But the
materials and the prompts thatwe use to create that are, are
(01:59):
also restrictive. They'relimiting. And so even like the
size of a piece of paper, forexample, right? We can compare
a post-it note versus a pieceof paper versus butcher,
butcher paper. Butcher paper'sgonna give us a lot more space
for expression, but maybe weneed to rein it in and have a
little bit more containment,right? And even the materials
that we choose, so markers andpencils, for example, are going
(02:23):
to be much more restrictive orlimiting in our expressive than
wet paint, for example, whichcan get a lot messier. And so
there's these inherentqualities within the arts that
I think really lend itself forpeople to explore where they
are personally at, with howthey feel and connect with and
(02:43):
express their anger. Do theyneed more space for expression?
Do they need more containment?
And we can really kind of playin that area with, with the
arts.
Lisa (02:53):
Mm-Hmm , ,
that's so interesting. There's
two questions that come up forme. Um, uh, one is like, why
did you venture into this angermanagement tool with art
? Yes . And then numbertwo is like how I know you ,
you , we should all go to atherapist if we need to, you
know what I mean? Right .
Because it's, it's a greatguide. It's a great, you know,
(03:14):
guidance. But what if you do itby yourself? How can you know?
Do you need to be contained?
Yes . Or do you need to expressAnyways ,
Erica (03:22):
Two questions. Yes .
Those are both great questions.
So why, so why anger? So, youknow, interestingly, actually
I'll just share personally,anger and anger management has
never been an interest of mine.
, I'm a very , like,fairly conflict avoidant
person. My nervous system airson the side of like, Nope, I'm
not angry, I'm fine. Right?
Mm-Hmm . . And soI have a history of not really
(03:44):
having a very , um, uh,elaborate relationship with my
own anger, , I wouldsay , or variations of it,
right? In my nervous system.
I'm just saying like, oh , no ,let's just be friends, right?
. And , and so I'venever had interest, but in the
last several years, and we wereactually chatting a little bit
about this before we startedrecording , um, I've been
(04:05):
seeing a lot more anger in alot of different ways. And it's
sort of peaked my curiosity.
Yes . Because I tend to beanger avoidant. Mm-Hmm .
. I thought,okay, Erica , here's a, here's
a challenge point for you,right? Like, this is a need.
And so how can I not just helppeople more with their anger,
(04:26):
but how can I start to relateto anger differently and help
other people relate to theiranger differently as well? Um,
I was looking at Gallup pollsand the World Economic Forum,
and all of these polls, bothnationally and internationally,
did indeed confirm that peoplereport feeling angrier more
often, more intensely. And thatwas even before 2020. So
(04:50):
anger's really been on therise. You know, I go into, into
businesses and I see signs nowthat say, please be nice to our
workers. Aggression will not betolerated. And I was just
thinking like, what is going on , right? And so I got
really curious about not justwhat's happening in terms of
people's anger, but how can Iprovide, given my tools and my
(05:12):
knowledge, my background as anart therapist, some alternative
ways to becoming aware ofanger. And one of those was
really expanding outside ofthe, the concept of anger
management, right? And so Istarted looking into what's
available out there, and thisidea of, I mean , a lot of book
titles are, you know, aboutcontrolling your anger or
(05:32):
managing your anger. Yeah. AndI thought, well, gosh, managing
people's anger is what I'vebeen doing this whole time.
Like, I can, if anger comes up,I can manage it. I can make
sure that it doesn't go too farand we can calm that baby down,
right? But then I startedthinking, well, maybe we need
to harness it. Maybe we need toredirect it. Maybe we need to
actually , um, wake it up,right ? Like , have a
(05:55):
conversation . Exactly. Have aconversation with it. Sometimes
we need to soothe it. So Ithink that's the other way that
art can really help people, isto start to develop their own
relationship with anger. Someof that's through personal
imagery, right? So instead ofrelying on monsters and
volcanoes and ticking timebombs and all of this like
prefab metaphor that societygives us mm-Hmm .
(06:18):
to start by asking ourselves,what does my anger look like?
Or my frustration or annoyanceor whatever, you know, fill in
the blank with your own word.
What does my own frustration ex, you know, experience of
frustration look like? And thenhow do I wanna relate to that
based off of its needs? And Ithink that informs your second
(06:38):
question a little bit, Lisa,which is, how do I know if I
need more expression? How do Iknow if I need more
containment? Well, if there's,you know, a lot coming out,
then maybe that anger needs alittle bit more containment,
right? Maybe we just need toplay around with what does that
feel like if your anger tendsto be more eruptive right then
(07:01):
, and you feel your anger bigand strong and it's, or it
feels really scary. So theother thing is, if you don't
feel your anger, but it feelsso scary to start to come into
touch with it, then we wantmore containment. We want
smaller paper, we want morerestrictive types of materials
like markers or pencils. Right?
(07:21):
But if you feel like, you know,I need , I'm, I'm not saying
something, I've not been intouch with my anger and it
feels safe to connect with it.
Right? Or I can feel it andtolerate it, and that's fine,
then maybe I'm gonna givemyself or my clients a little
bit more space to explore whattheir anger looks like , uh,
and feels like to them.
Lauren (07:41):
Yeah . So , um, I , I love the fact that you're
touching on this notion thatanger is this, this very
predictable thing where it'sjust someone just explodes. Um
, mm-Hmm . ,because I know, I know several
people who do the shutdownright ? Thing, and then it
comes out as like passiveaggressiveness and , um, things
(08:04):
of that nature. And I don'tthink most people would, would
sort of pinpoint that as beinganger. Um, right . And so I
would, I appreciate that, and Ilove that there's, you know,
the art is this tool that cankind of hit both. And you don't
even need to know which type ofanger person you are , right ?
(08:26):
You can just start making artand then let it speak to you
and go exactly slow or small orbig and fast as you need to go.
So , um, what about likesomeone who is like, I, I feel
like anger is always, protectis a protector emotion. I think
(08:51):
anger is always just thereprotecting you from, from
another emotion that is evenmore scary. At least that's my
experience with anger andmm-Hmm . helping
my own , own people in my lifewith anger. Um, what have you
noticed as you've helped peopleuse art to work through anger
and have that conversation?
(09:13):
What sort of transpires , um,in your experience?
Erica (09:19):
I think you're really hitting on , uh, an important
piece of working with anger andgetting to know and relating to
our anger, which is why is ithere? Right? What are you
trying to tell me? And when Iwas listening to Lauren, I was
even seeing in my imagination,my , I'm a very surprise,
surprise . I'm a visualthinker,. Yeah . So I,
I was sort of seeing , one ofthe activities that I talk
(09:40):
about in the book is like ascribble, right? But very
specifically, not justscribbling, but thinking about
how do you feel your anger,right? Is it really collapse ?
Is it small? Is it tight? Is itslow to build? Right? So
perhaps that scribble becomesreally slow to build and then
it picks up speed andintensity. Or does it start to
(10:01):
expand and then contract again,right? So helping people to
really start getting a sense ofan awareness of what is their
process of experiencing angerlike , right? And then from
there, we can step back and wehave an actual image, right? So
there's that process piece, andnow we have an image that we
(10:21):
can step away from and reflecton, right? We call that
externalizing in art therapy,right? So it's external to us.
So now I have space to reflect.
And just getting that space bycreating an art object tends to
give us a little bit more , um,ability to have insights,
access words, right? Becausenow we can describe this image
(10:44):
or work again, from this verycreative place of what would my
scribble want me to know? Whatis it trying to tell me? Right?
Right . And so then we can justwork somewhat spontaneously in
terms of what words come up.
And I emphasize that piece of,you know, working spontaneously
and staying in that creativespace, even when we move into
words, because especially withadults, I see that they go into
(11:06):
the, I don't know, right?
Because it's not logical.
Mm-Hmm . . Uh ,and so a lot of times, adults
that I work with, and I workwith all ages. I work with
kids, teens, adults, I have avery diverse practice. And the
adults will often say, well, Idon't, I don't know. Right?
Especially if they're notaccustomed to working in this
creative way. And I'll let themknow, it's okay if you don't
(11:28):
know, this comes from a notknowing place. Just whatever
arises is fine, try not to editit, because usually something's
come up, but they're going, no,that's stupid. That doesn't
make sense. And then they editit, right? And I'm like, I'm
just curious. Before you didn'tknow, did something come up?
And usually the answer is,well, yes. Right? And so from
there, we can ask questions tothe scribble, like, why are you
(11:52):
working so hard? Or why are youhiding? It can be a question of
what important things do youwant me to know, right? If you
have a message for me, or ifyou're trying to advise me
about something. And sometimesit can be indeed that there is
an underlying more vulnerablefeeling, right? That it's
trying to protect us from.
(12:13):
Sometimes it's protecting usfrom something that's , um,
usually a , like an unfairnessor an injustice. Mm-Hmm .
Right? Um, or a boundarycrossing, right? So, and when I
think about boundaries, I feellike that's kind of a buzzword
now, right? Like, you know,protecting your boundaries or
setting your boundaries. But Ireally think about boundaries
(12:33):
as, you know , um, the, thespace where I feel like my
stuff is safe, right? And sothe space between me and you
that says everything that'smine, right? Inside and out. So
material, things, money, home,my kids, right? But also my
emotions, my physical space,right? Um, my sense of being,
(12:55):
right? So that's all my stuff.
Mm-Hmm. is it,does it feel safe? And so we
can create differentboundaries. And this is another
actually area that I explore inthe book is boundary setting,
right? Is how can we safely setboundaries and listen to our
anger when it's saying, Hey,you are taking too much of my
stuff, or I keep telling youno, and you keep pushing it,
(13:19):
right? Mm-Hmm , .
Now my, now my stuff doesn'tfeel like it's safe around you
. Right? And so anger can talkup about that as well.
Lisa (13:26):
Interesting. That's great. I I love this
conversation because it's,you're talking about an
emotion, anger as amulti-dimensional thing, and
it's a , there's a spectrum.
And it seems like in your book,you're really diving into that
spectrum of anger. 'cause whenI think of anger, you know, I
think of one thing, right? It'slike we almost like go to the
one thing when it's actuallymultidimensional. And I think,
(13:48):
Lauren, you hit on this aswell. It's like, well, what's
below that? And then what'sbelow that? And what's below
that, right? Yes . So it's likethis , and then, and I think
anger is, is it gonna be avolcano or is it gonna be an
implosion? So my question,this, your book is amazing
because I think everybody needsthese tools, right? Give us,
like, I think you said there'sover 70 exercises in the book.
(14:11):
Yes . Is that right? I mean,that's amazing. Give us maybe
like two that you think are keythat can help our audience.
Erica (14:19):
Okay. Yes. That's hard to pick two outta . And yet I
know , or 70 , I should haveproposed less after I got to
like 40. I was like, why didn'tI say 35? I could be
done by now. . So yeah. So , um, so the book has
broken up in diff differentchapters actually, in terms of
how we can approach anger. Andthe first chapter is on
(14:42):
self-care, because that'sreally important that before we
start to , um, really get intoapproaching and relating to our
anger and getting to know it,that we have some self-care
tools. Um, because depending,of course, depending on the
nervous system, we just don'tknow what's gonna happen when
we, and I don't mean that inlike a ogly boly scary way,
(15:03):
right? But just like air ,especially as a clinician,
right? Airing on the side ofcaution. You know, can this
person bring themselves back tobaseline quickly? Is there
enough resilience there? Right.
Or once we touch on anger,right? Are we gonna just woo
slip right in there, no matterhow much containment I provide?
(15:24):
And so it's helpful just to getin touch with your own
self-care practices. Um, andthere's, you know, a bunch of
activities and one that comesto mind, for example, is
actually , um, akin to a sortof like visual breath
meditation in a way, amindfulness practice. Um, and
it invites people to drawdiagonal lines across a piece
(15:47):
of paper so that you start inthe corner and the line is very
short, and then you draw a linenext to it. And you can imagine
that as you get closer to theopposite, diagonals your line's
very long Mm-Hmm., right ? And then as you
continue to move towards thecorner, then the lines become
very short. So the invitationis to do an exhale with each
(16:07):
line that you draw and toobserve what happens as the
breath is a shorter exhale. Andthen what happens as the breath
becomes a longer exhale as itreaches, it'll show on the
screen here for people who arewatching the video, right ?
This would be that longdiagonal from corner to corner
. So we have a very shortbreath here, and then we have a
(16:29):
very long breath up here. Yeah.
Right? And so, and it's alsoinviting people to become aware
of their energy, because anger,naturally, unless we collapse
around it, anger is energy.
That's its purpose in thenervous system. So if we get in
touch with anger , um, withoutthat collapse, it is, it is
(16:52):
energy to mobilize us towardsresolving the problem so that
we can get back to a state ofsafety so we can get back to a
state of feeling, okay. In theworld and in our relationships,
right? And so it's exploringwhat happens, you know, as we
even slow the hand down. Can Islow that down? Do I have a lot
of energy in my nervous system,in my body, right? So even when
(17:14):
we're in the corners and wedon't have a lot of, you know,
a lot of space to take thatdeep breath, you know,
metaphorically, in the world, there's sometimes
not a lot of space to take thatdeep breath. Can we slow
ourselves down so we can createspace for that deep breath?
Mm-Hmm . , right?
And so just playing with lines,just simple lines on a piece of
(17:34):
paper and exploring, slowingdown the hand, slowing down the
breath. What happens when wehave less space to breathe?
Metaphorically, what happenswhen we have more space to
breathe , metaphorically. Um,because those are practice
points for when we're in asituation in real life where we
might feel like there's notime, there's no space. This is
(17:55):
happening, now I have to takecare of it. Now how do I slow
down my body and my nervoussystem so that it doesn't boom,
right? Shout out the kids, orboom, you know, slam the door,
whatever it might be , right?
Those sort of passiveaggressive , those are those
flavors of like passiveaggressive , right ?
Yeah. So that would be oneactivity, right? Where I would
invite people to start withself-care practices. Just check
(18:17):
where you're at , um, in termsof your own general regulation
of your emotions, right? Yeah.
Lauren (18:25):
Yeah . I love that you are promoting , um, I , you
know, I'm, I'm, I'm a bigproponent of like, putting
emotions on a circle as opposedto like a linear line. Yes .
Because I think we'll put it ona linear line where like, these
are good emotions. These arebad emotions. Oh , right . Yeah
. And I love that you'reputting it in a circle with all
, with all emotions and that it, it's just, it's just who you,
(18:47):
it's just who we are, right?
It's we , it's who we are asindividuals, and it's, and it
seems to be who we are as asociety. Yes . And you're,
you're clearly have noticedthat society might need , um,
some tools for , youknow, like taking those extra ,
um, deep breaths, not pushingforward when we're not ready.
(19:08):
And maybe that's right . Maybejust, you know, drawing that
line a couple more times. And Ithink, you know, you can get
society to change sort of oneindividual at a time. Lisa and
I talk about that all the time.
Absolutely. You know, makingthe world better, kind of one
heartbreak at a time, right?
And I just, I think if we cancontinue this conversation that
(19:29):
, um, anger isn't somethingthat you , um, need to feel
shame for or guilt for, andit's not something you need to
be afraid of. It's somethingthat is clearly, it's, it's a
bullhorn, right? That is makinga very loud announcement, right
? And then it's something that,you know, you should, you
should definitely , um, have aconversation with. I I really
(19:50):
appreciate that aspect aboutit.
Erica (19:51):
Thank you. Yes, absolutely. And I think a lot
of anger is misdirected, right?
And we're not, when we're notreally getting underneath and
understanding, you know, why isthis anger here? Why is it
really here? Why is it reallyhere? Right ? , um, and
I'll share one more, one moreactivity based off of that, if
that's all right . Lisa, I knowyou asked Reem for two . Yeah .
(20:13):
So , um, you know, another onethen is, and I talked a little
bit about this before, youknow, getting to know anger,
you can do that scribble Imentioned. And then the third
kind of first step I would sayis what do you want your
relationship with anger to be?
And I, and I hinted at thatearlier, but in terms of an
actual art activity, one of thesuggestions I give is to
(20:34):
actually draw what managingsort of a classic example of ,
um, working with anger wouldsound like. Is managing anger,
controlling anger. So what doesthat look like, right? So if
you were in relationship withanger, and you can pick an
animal, for example, in thebook, I used the example of a
dog, right? Like a pet, right?
Mm-Hmm . . Sowhat would that look like? If
you were managing your pet,managing your dog, or
(20:55):
controlling your dog, whatwould that actually look like
on paper? Right? And you don'thave to be an artist. It
doesn't have to look good. Youcan use shapes, you can use
stick figures. It does notmatter. You can write words
with thinking about the fontand the size of the font, and
right. You can just write theword manage, right, or control
and see what that word lookslike. And then what if you were
(21:16):
soothing your pet? What if youwere leading your pet? What if
you were collaborating withyour pet ? What if you were
training your pet? What if youwere right? So we can sort of
brainstorm different words thatwould represent a type of a
relationship. What if you wereplaying with your pet, right?
(21:37):
Like, what's that relationshipgonna look like? And then on
paper, or you know, if, again,if you don't even have to,
people are like, oh, I can'tdraw. That's fine. Do it in
your imagination, right? Yes .
I mean, our, our brain is likea canvas, right? I mean, you
can just picture what doesmanaging look like? And I
imagine some of your listenersright now could see it in their
(21:58):
imagination without even havingto put pencil to paper. And so
then picking the most, whatwould feel like the most
helpful, what would feel likethe least helpful? And go ahead
and either draw or visualizewhat those images would look
like. And that can start toexpand again, our idea of wise
anger here and what kind ofrelationship can I have with my
(22:20):
own anger, right? We don't, wedon't think a lot about our
relationships with ourselves.
When we think about anger, wethink a lot about the impact on
others, or I'm mad at others,right? But before we start to
relate to others, we want tostart thinking about how do we
relate to our own internalworld? Uh, and a lot of times
that can then lead to somesense of comfort, some sense of
(22:43):
empowerment, right? And thatanger will often feel like,
okay, you're listening to me soI can chill and trust that you
are going to take care of us,right? And then that would, I
think, really go a long way inimproving our relationships
with one another.
Lisa (22:58):
Love it . I love this. I , this conversation seems like
we need to continue. I know wedon't have a long time, but
what I really love what I gotfrom our conversation, I mean,
I love that you're talkingabout the nervous system, you
know, in connection to anger.
You know, that's very powerfulfor me, and that anger is
energy. But for me, what reallycomes up as art, you're
(23:18):
encouraging art is a form ofkindness, right? Yes . Kindness
to self.
Erica (23:23):
Absolutely. Yeah .
Lisa (23:24):
That's such a beautiful thing. I mean, because it's so
wonderful. So , um, I don'tknow, Lauren, if you wanna
conclude because we're , yeah ,
Lauren (23:33):
No, I just wanted to , um, thank you for taking the
time to talk to us about it. Ido think that this is a really
important conversation that I,I hope that , um, many people
continue to have. Um, you know,obviously Lisa and I talk , um,
all the time about the magicthat Art has , um, and its
ability to help the individualand, and help the world. And I
(23:54):
think your book will definitely, um, is already making the
world a better place. So thankyou
Erica (23:58):
So much.
Lauren (23:59):
Yeah. I appreciate it.
I, I appreciate you taking thetime to talk to us today.
Erica (24:03):
That's been great being here. Leslie ,
Lisa (24:06):
Erica , how can people get ahold of you? How can they
get your book? Which is veryimportant, I think, in these
Erica (24:10):
Times . Oh, thank you.
Yes, thank you. So I know Lisa,you're gonna link to the book
it's called Working With AngerCreatively. I have it right
here for folks that are onvideo , um, 70 Art Therapy
Inspired Activities to SafelySoothe Harness and Redirect
Anger for Meaningful Change.
You can get it anywhere booksare sold, and if they don't
have it at your localbookstore, wherever you prefer
(24:32):
to buy books, just ask them andthey can get it in for you. I'm
sure. Um, Barnes and Nobles,Amazon, the traditional places,
of course you can get it, it'son Kindle. Um, or if you like
the old fashioned way, you canget an actual copy of the book.
My website is www therapy witherica.com . Um, and I do have a
newsletter that perhaps I cangive you the link, Lisa, and
(24:53):
people can link to sign up forupdates and book giveaways and
free samples from the book. AndI'll be posting this podcast
there, . And , um, andso I often have lots of free
accessible goodies. I try tomake this work as accessible as
possible to folks. Um, and sothat's a really great way to
stay in touch and, and get moreinformation and hopefully more
(25:14):
hopeful tools.
Lauren (25:15):
Yeah. Thank you so much. Well , yeah, we'll put
all those links. Thank youeverybody. All right ,
Erica (25:19):
You're so welcome .
Thanks for having me. Alright .
Moving . We're really, reallyexcited today. We have Erica
Curtis with us. Erica ,introduce yourself and who you
are and why are you here?
Erica (00:13):
It's good to be here with both of you. So I'm a
licensed marriage and familytherapist. I'm also a board
certified art therapist, and Ido a lot of speaking. I have a
private practice where I workwith clients, and I'm also an
author. And I know that youboth were interested in my
recent book called Working withAnger Creatively. So I think
(00:34):
we're gonna dig into that alittle bit today. Yeah,
Lauren (00:37):
Yeah. Let's jump off the question of , um, how can
art help you work throughanger? Because , um, when we
saw your new book, we were justlike, oh, what a question that
everybody probably needs tothink about a little bit more.
Right, right,
Erica (00:51):
Right. Absolutely. Well, so I mean , I could , I could
spend hours on this onequestion, but I mean, you know
, I was thinking about this andin a nutshell, I think two
things really stand out to me.
You know, one is there's a lotof inherent qualities, just
natural qualities that art andart making has. And one of them
is that it's naturallyexpressive, but it's also
(01:12):
naturally containing. And angeris one of those emotions that's
particularly volatile. And Idon't just mean eruptive, it
can also shut us down. So itcould take us either direction,
right? That energy can build upreally fast, right? Or we can
collapse and sort of, you know,put the cap on it and then numb
it, but then it's underneaththe surface, but we're not
feeling it. Right? And then itcan come out in these little
(01:35):
ways. And so anger really needsa lot of space, both for
expression, right? Safeexpression, but also a lot of
containment. So what I mean bythat is, I mean, I think it's
intuitive that art isexpressive. We're expressing
ourselves, we're takingsomething from within ourselves
and putting it outside ofourselves, right? But the
materials and the prompts thatwe use to create that are, are
(01:59):
also restrictive. They'relimiting. And so even like the
size of a piece of paper, forexample, right? We can compare
a post-it note versus a pieceof paper versus butcher,
butcher paper. Butcher paper'sgonna give us a lot more space
for expression, but maybe weneed to rein it in and have a
little bit more containment,right? And even the materials
that we choose, so markers andpencils, for example, are going
(02:23):
to be much more restrictive orlimiting in our expressive than
wet paint, for example, whichcan get a lot messier. And so
there's these inherentqualities within the arts that
I think really lend itself forpeople to explore where they
are personally at, with howthey feel and connect with and
(02:43):
express their anger. Do theyneed more space for expression?
Do they need more containment?
And we can really kind of playin that area with, with the
arts.
Lisa (02:53):
Mm-Hmm ,
two questions that come up forme. Um, uh, one is like, why
did you venture into this angermanagement tool with art
you , we should all go to atherapist if we need to, you
know what I mean? Right .
Because it's, it's a greatguide. It's a great, you know,
(03:14):
guidance. But what if you do itby yourself? How can you know?
Do you need to be contained?
Yes . Or do you need to expressAnyways ,
Erica (03:22):
Two questions. Yes .
Those are both great questions.
So why, so why anger? So, youknow, interestingly, actually
I'll just share personally,anger and anger management has
never been an interest of mine.
person. My nervous system airson the side of like, Nope, I'm
not angry, I'm fine. Right?
Mm-Hmm .
(03:44):
having a very , um, uh,elaborate relationship with my
own anger,
right? In my nervous system.
I'm just saying like, oh , no ,let's just be friends, right?
last several years, and we wereactually chatting a little bit
about this before we startedrecording , um, I've been
(04:05):
seeing a lot more anger in alot of different ways. And it's
sort of peaked my curiosity.
Yes . Because I tend to beanger avoidant. Mm-Hmm .
a challenge point for you,right? Like, this is a need.
And so how can I not just helppeople more with their anger,
(04:26):
but how can I start to relateto anger differently and help
other people relate to theiranger differently as well? Um,
I was looking at Gallup pollsand the World Economic Forum,
and all of these polls, bothnationally and internationally,
did indeed confirm that peoplereport feeling angrier more
often, more intensely. And thatwas even before 2020. So
(04:50):
anger's really been on therise. You know, I go into, into
businesses and I see signs nowthat say, please be nice to our
workers. Aggression will not betolerated. And I was just
thinking like, what is going on
really curious about not justwhat's happening in terms of
people's anger, but how can Iprovide, given my tools and my
(05:12):
knowledge, my background as anart therapist, some alternative
ways to becoming aware ofanger. And one of those was
really expanding outside ofthe, the concept of anger
management, right? And so Istarted looking into what's
available out there, and thisidea of, I mean , a lot of book
titles are, you know, aboutcontrolling your anger or
(05:32):
managing your anger. Yeah. AndI thought, well, gosh, managing
people's anger is what I'vebeen doing this whole time.
Like, I can, if anger comes up,I can manage it. I can make
sure that it doesn't go too farand we can calm that baby down,
right? But then I startedthinking, well, maybe we need
to harness it. Maybe we need toredirect it. Maybe we need to
actually , um, wake it up,right ? Like , have a
(05:55):
conversation . Exactly. Have aconversation with it. Sometimes
we need to soothe it. So Ithink that's the other way that
art can really help people, isto start to develop their own
relationship with anger. Someof that's through personal
imagery, right? So instead ofrelying on monsters and
volcanoes and ticking timebombs and all of this like
prefab metaphor that societygives us mm-Hmm .
(06:18):
to start by asking ourselves,what does my anger look like?
Or my frustration or annoyanceor whatever, you know, fill in
the blank with your own word.
What does my own frustration ex, you know, experience of
frustration look like? And thenhow do I wanna relate to that
based off of its needs? And Ithink that informs your second
(06:38):
question a little bit, Lisa,which is, how do I know if I
need more expression? How do Iknow if I need more
containment? Well, if there's,you know, a lot coming out,
then maybe that anger needs alittle bit more containment,
right? Maybe we just need toplay around with what does that
feel like if your anger tendsto be more eruptive right then
(07:01):
, and you feel your anger bigand strong and it's, or it
feels really scary. So theother thing is, if you don't
feel your anger, but it feelsso scary to start to come into
touch with it, then we wantmore containment. We want
smaller paper, we want morerestrictive types of materials
like markers or pencils. Right?
(07:21):
But if you feel like, you know,I need , I'm, I'm not saying
something, I've not been intouch with my anger and it
feels safe to connect with it.
Right? Or I can feel it andtolerate it, and that's fine,
then maybe I'm gonna givemyself or my clients a little
bit more space to explore whattheir anger looks like , uh,
and feels like to them.
Lauren (07:41):
Yeah . So , um, I , I love the fact that you're
touching on this notion thatanger is this, this very
predictable thing where it'sjust someone just explodes. Um
, mm-Hmm .
people who do the shutdownright ? Thing, and then it
comes out as like passiveaggressiveness and , um, things
(08:04):
of that nature. And I don'tthink most people would, would
sort of pinpoint that as beinganger. Um, right . And so I
would, I appreciate that, and Ilove that there's, you know,
the art is this tool that cankind of hit both. And you don't
even need to know which type ofanger person you are , right ?
(08:26):
You can just start making artand then let it speak to you
and go exactly slow or small orbig and fast as you need to go.
So , um, what about likesomeone who is like, I, I feel
like anger is always, protectis a protector emotion. I think
(08:51):
anger is always just thereprotecting you from, from
another emotion that is evenmore scary. At least that's my
experience with anger andmm-Hmm .
my own , own people in my lifewith anger. Um, what have you
noticed as you've helped peopleuse art to work through anger
and have that conversation?
(09:13):
What sort of transpires , um,in your experience?
Erica (09:19):
I think you're really hitting on , uh, an important
piece of working with anger andgetting to know and relating to
our anger, which is why is ithere? Right? What are you
trying to tell me? And when Iwas listening to Lauren, I was
even seeing in my imagination,my , I'm a very surprise,
surprise . I'm a visualthinker,
I was sort of seeing , one ofthe activities that I talk
(09:40):
about in the book is like ascribble, right? But very
specifically, not justscribbling, but thinking about
how do you feel your anger,right? Is it really collapse ?
Is it small? Is it tight? Is itslow to build? Right? So
perhaps that scribble becomesreally slow to build and then
it picks up speed andintensity. Or does it start to
(10:01):
expand and then contract again,right? So helping people to
really start getting a sense ofan awareness of what is their
process of experiencing angerlike , right? And then from
there, we can step back and wehave an actual image, right? So
there's that process piece, andnow we have an image that we
(10:21):
can step away from and reflecton, right? We call that
externalizing in art therapy,right? So it's external to us.
So now I have space to reflect.
And just getting that space bycreating an art object tends to
give us a little bit more , um,ability to have insights,
access words, right? Becausenow we can describe this image
(10:44):
or work again, from this verycreative place of what would my
scribble want me to know? Whatis it trying to tell me? Right?
Right . And so then we can justwork somewhat spontaneously in
terms of what words come up.
And I emphasize that piece of,you know, working spontaneously
and staying in that creativespace, even when we move into
words, because especially withadults, I see that they go into
(11:06):
the, I don't know, right?
Because it's not logical.
Mm-Hmm .
that I work with, and I workwith all ages. I work with
kids, teens, adults, I have avery diverse practice. And the
adults will often say, well, Idon't, I don't know. Right?
Especially if they're notaccustomed to working in this
creative way. And I'll let themknow, it's okay if you don't
(11:28):
know, this comes from a notknowing place. Just whatever
arises is fine, try not to editit, because usually something's
come up, but they're going, no,that's stupid. That doesn't
make sense. And then they editit, right? And I'm like, I'm
just curious. Before you didn'tknow, did something come up?
And usually the answer is,well, yes. Right? And so from
there, we can ask questions tothe scribble, like, why are you
(11:52):
working so hard? Or why are youhiding? It can be a question of
what important things do youwant me to know, right? If you
have a message for me, or ifyou're trying to advise me
about something. And sometimesit can be indeed that there is
an underlying more vulnerablefeeling, right? That it's
trying to protect us from.
(12:13):
Sometimes it's protecting usfrom something that's , um,
usually a , like an unfairnessor an injustice. Mm-Hmm .
Right? Um, or a boundarycrossing, right? So, and when I
think about boundaries, I feellike that's kind of a buzzword
now, right? Like, you know,protecting your boundaries or
setting your boundaries. But Ireally think about boundaries
(12:33):
as, you know , um, the, thespace where I feel like my
stuff is safe, right? And sothe space between me and you
that says everything that'smine, right? Inside and out. So
material, things, money, home,my kids, right? But also my
emotions, my physical space,right? Um, my sense of being,
(12:55):
right? So that's all my stuff.
Mm-Hmm.
can create differentboundaries. And this is another
actually area that I explore inthe book is boundary setting,
right? Is how can we safely setboundaries and listen to our
anger when it's saying, Hey,you are taking too much of my
stuff, or I keep telling youno, and you keep pushing it,
(13:19):
right? Mm-Hmm ,
Now my, now my stuff doesn'tfeel like it's safe around you
. Right? And so anger can talkup about that as well.
Lisa (13:26):
Interesting. That's great. I I love this
conversation because it's,you're talking about an
emotion, anger as amulti-dimensional thing, and
it's a , there's a spectrum.
And it seems like in your book,you're really diving into that
spectrum of anger. 'cause whenI think of anger, you know, I
think of one thing, right? It'slike we almost like go to the
one thing when it's actuallymultidimensional. And I think,
(13:48):
Lauren, you hit on this aswell. It's like, well, what's
below that? And then what'sbelow that? And what's below
that, right? Yes . So it's likethis , and then, and I think
anger is, is it gonna be avolcano or is it gonna be an
implosion? So my question,this, your book is amazing
because I think everybody needsthese tools, right? Give us,
like, I think you said there'sover 70 exercises in the book.
(14:11):
Yes . Is that right? I mean,that's amazing. Give us maybe
like two that you think are keythat can help our audience.
Erica (14:19):
Okay. Yes. That's hard to pick two outta . And yet I
know , or 70 , I should haveproposed less after I got to
like 40. I was like, why didn'tI say 35
done by now.
broken up in diff differentchapters actually, in terms of
how we can approach anger. Andthe first chapter is on
(14:42):
self-care, because that'sreally important that before we
start to , um, really get intoapproaching and relating to our
anger and getting to know it,that we have some self-care
tools. Um, because depending,of course, depending on the
nervous system, we just don'tknow what's gonna happen when
we, and I don't mean that inlike a ogly boly scary way,
(15:03):
right? But just like air ,especially as a clinician,
right? Airing on the side ofcaution. You know, can this
person bring themselves back tobaseline quickly? Is there
enough resilience there? Right.
Or once we touch on anger,right? Are we gonna just woo
slip right in there, no matterhow much containment I provide?
(15:24):
And so it's helpful just to getin touch with your own
self-care practices. Um, andthere's, you know, a bunch of
activities and one that comesto mind, for example, is
actually , um, akin to a sortof like visual breath
meditation in a way, amindfulness practice. Um, and
it invites people to drawdiagonal lines across a piece
(15:47):
of paper so that you start inthe corner and the line is very
short, and then you draw a linenext to it. And you can imagine
that as you get closer to theopposite, diagonals your line's
very long Mm-Hmm.
continue to move towards thecorner, then the lines become
very short. So the invitationis to do an exhale with each
(16:07):
line that you draw and toobserve what happens as the
breath is a shorter exhale. Andthen what happens as the breath
becomes a longer exhale as itreaches, it'll show on the
screen here for people who arewatching the video, right ?
This would be that longdiagonal from corner to corner
. So we have a very shortbreath here, and then we have a
(16:29):
very long breath up here. Yeah.
Right? And so, and it's alsoinviting people to become aware
of their energy, because anger,naturally, unless we collapse
around it, anger is energy.
That's its purpose in thenervous system. So if we get in
touch with anger , um, withoutthat collapse, it is, it is
(16:52):
energy to mobilize us towardsresolving the problem so that
we can get back to a state ofsafety so we can get back to a
state of feeling, okay. In theworld and in our relationships,
right? And so it's exploringwhat happens, you know, as we
even slow the hand down. Can Islow that down? Do I have a lot
of energy in my nervous system,in my body, right? So even when
(17:14):
we're in the corners and wedon't have a lot of, you know,
a lot of space to take thatdeep breath, you know,
metaphorically
not a lot of space to take thatdeep breath. Can we slow
ourselves down so we can createspace for that deep breath?
Mm-Hmm .
And so just playing with lines,just simple lines on a piece of
(17:34):
paper and exploring, slowingdown the hand, slowing down the
breath. What happens when wehave less space to breathe?
Metaphorically, what happenswhen we have more space to
breathe , metaphorically. Um,because those are practice
points for when we're in asituation in real life where we
might feel like there's notime, there's no space. This is
(17:55):
happening, now I have to takecare of it. Now how do I slow
down my body and my nervoussystem so that it doesn't boom,
right? Shout out the kids, orboom, you know, slam the door,
whatever it might be , right?
Those sort of passiveaggressive , those are those
flavors of like passiveaggressive
Yeah. So that would be oneactivity, right? Where I would
invite people to start withself-care practices. Just check
(18:17):
where you're at , um, in termsof your own general regulation
of your emotions, right? Yeah.
Lauren (18:25):
Yeah . I love that you are promoting , um, I , you
know, I'm, I'm, I'm a bigproponent of like, putting
emotions on a circle as opposedto like a linear line. Yes .
Because I think we'll put it ona linear line where like, these
are good emotions. These arebad emotions. Oh , right . Yeah
. And I love that you'reputting it in a circle with all
, with all emotions and that it, it's just, it's just who you,
(18:47):
it's just who we are, right?
It's we , it's who we are asindividuals, and it's, and it
seems to be who we are as asociety. Yes . And you're,
you're clearly have noticedthat society might need , um,
some tools for
um, deep breaths, not pushingforward when we're not ready.
(19:08):
And maybe that's right . Maybejust, you know, drawing that
line a couple more times. And Ithink, you know, you can get
society to change sort of oneindividual at a time. Lisa and
I talk about that all the time.
Absolutely. You know, makingthe world better, kind of one
heartbreak at a time, right?
And I just, I think if we cancontinue this conversation that
(19:29):
, um, anger isn't somethingthat you , um, need to feel
shame for or guilt for, andit's not something you need to
be afraid of. It's somethingthat is clearly, it's, it's a
bullhorn, right? That is makinga very loud announcement, right
? And then it's something that,you know, you should, you
should definitely , um, have aconversation with. I I really
(19:50):
appreciate that aspect aboutit.
Erica (19:51):
Thank you. Yes, absolutely. And I think a lot
of anger is misdirected, right?
And we're not, when we're notreally getting underneath and
understanding, you know, why isthis anger here? Why is it
really here? Why is it reallyhere? Right ?
I'll share one more, one moreactivity based off of that, if
that's all right . Lisa, I knowyou asked Reem for two . Yeah .
(20:13):
So , um, you know, another onethen is, and I talked a little
bit about this before, youknow, getting to know anger,
you can do that scribble Imentioned. And then the third
kind of first step I would sayis what do you want your
relationship with anger to be?
And I, and I hinted at thatearlier, but in terms of an
actual art activity, one of thesuggestions I give is to
(20:34):
actually draw what managingsort of a classic example of ,
um, working with anger wouldsound like. Is managing anger,
controlling anger. So what doesthat look like, right? So if
you were in relationship withanger, and you can pick an
animal, for example, in thebook, I used the example of a
dog, right? Like a pet, right?
Mm-Hmm .
you were managing your pet,managing your dog, or
(20:55):
controlling your dog, whatwould that actually look like
on paper? Right? And you don'thave to be an artist. It
doesn't have to look good. Youcan use shapes, you can use
stick figures. It does notmatter. You can write words
with thinking about the fontand the size of the font, and
right. You can just write theword manage, right, or control
and see what that word lookslike. And then what if you were
(21:16):
soothing your pet? What if youwere leading your pet? What if
you were collaborating withyour pet ? What if you were
training your pet? What if youwere right? So we can sort of
brainstorm different words thatwould represent a type of a
relationship. What if you wereplaying with your pet, right?
(21:37):
Like, what's that relationshipgonna look like? And then on
paper, or you know, if, again,if you don't even have to,
people are like, oh, I can'tdraw. That's fine. Do it in
your imagination, right? Yes .
I mean, our, our brain is likea canvas, right? I mean, you
can just picture what doesmanaging look like? And I
imagine some of your listenersright now could see it in their
(21:58):
imagination without even havingto put pencil to paper. And so
then picking the most, whatwould feel like the most
helpful, what would feel likethe least helpful? And go ahead
and either draw or visualizewhat those images would look
like. And that can start toexpand again, our idea of wise
anger here and what kind ofrelationship can I have with my
(22:20):
own anger, right? We don't, wedon't think a lot about our
relationships with ourselves.
When we think about anger, wethink a lot about the impact on
others, or I'm mad at others,right? But before we start to
relate to others, we want tostart thinking about how do we
relate to our own internalworld? Uh, and a lot of times
that can then lead to somesense of comfort, some sense of
(22:43):
empowerment, right? And thatanger will often feel like,
okay, you're listening to me soI can chill and trust that you
are going to take care of us,right? And then that would, I
think, really go a long way inimproving our relationships
with one another.
Lisa (22:58):
Love it . I love this. I , this conversation seems like
we need to continue. I know wedon't have a long time, but
what I really love what I gotfrom our conversation, I mean,
I love that you're talkingabout the nervous system, you
know, in connection to anger.
You know, that's very powerfulfor me, and that anger is
energy. But for me, what reallycomes up as art, you're
(23:18):
encouraging art is a form ofkindness, right? Yes . Kindness
to self.
Erica (23:23):
Absolutely. Yeah .
Lisa (23:24):
That's such a beautiful thing. I mean, because it's so
wonderful. So , um, I don'tknow, Lauren, if you wanna
conclude because we're , yeah ,
Lauren (23:33):
No, I just wanted to , um, thank you for taking the
time to talk to us about it. Ido think that this is a really
important conversation that I,I hope that , um, many people
continue to have. Um, you know,obviously Lisa and I talk , um,
all the time about the magicthat Art has , um, and its
ability to help the individualand, and help the world. And I
(23:54):
think your book will definitely, um, is already making the
world a better place. So thankyou
Erica (23:58):
So much.
Lauren (23:59):
Yeah. I appreciate it.
I, I appreciate you taking thetime to talk to us today.
Erica (24:03):
That's been great being here. Leslie ,
Lisa (24:06):
Erica , how can people get ahold of you? How can they
get your book? Which is veryimportant, I think, in these
Erica (24:10):
Times . Oh, thank you.
Yes, thank you. So I know Lisa,you're gonna link to the book
it's called Working With AngerCreatively. I have it right
here for folks that are onvideo , um, 70 Art Therapy
Inspired Activities to SafelySoothe Harness and Redirect
Anger for Meaningful Change.
You can get it anywhere booksare sold, and if they don't
have it at your localbookstore, wherever you prefer
(24:32):
to buy books, just ask them andthey can get it in for you. I'm
sure. Um, Barnes and Nobles,Amazon, the traditional places,
of course you can get it, it'son Kindle. Um, or if you like
the old fashioned way, you canget an actual copy of the book.
My website is www therapy witherica.com . Um, and I do have a
newsletter that perhaps I cangive you the link, Lisa, and
(24:53):
people can link to sign up forupdates and book giveaways and
free samples from the book. AndI'll be posting this podcast
there,
accessible goodies. I try tomake this work as accessible as
possible to folks. Um, and sothat's a really great way to
stay in touch and, and get moreinformation and hopefully more
(25:14):
hopeful tools.
Lauren (25:15):
Yeah. Thank you so much. Well , yeah, we'll put
all those links. Thank youeverybody. All right ,
Erica (25:19):
You're so welcome .
Thanks for having me. Alright .
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