August 30, 2022 • 29 mins
Lisa and Lauren chat with Esther Maloney (https://carmelfutures.com/) about the seasons of creativity and how important all of them are to ones creativity. The ups, downs and in between activities, emotions, and thoughts are part of your work. Ideas for making the most out of your day to day life are given in support of the cycle that is life and creativity and art and everything all at once.
Learn more about the Take an Art Break Movement on the Art is Moving website here.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Yay.
We're here.
Hi,
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Welcome.
This is Lisa and Lauren, andwe're so excited today.
We are, I'm gonna have a chatwith Esther Maloney and she's
from Canada, and we just reallywanna know who you are or tell
the world who you are.
What's your passion.
And then we'll lead into anamazing conversation.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's such a pleasure to be onwith you both.
So yeah, my name's Esther.
I live in Toronto, Canada, and Igrew up, I was born and raised
in Montreal and, uh, I've beentelling stories my whole life.
I think when I was like 10 or11, I asked my parents for a
typewriter that's like inthe eighties and I was like, I
(00:44):
wanna sit and like type mystories.
And, um, so I studied theater.
I am an actor I'm trainedprofessionally as an actor.
And then I worked for about adecade in Toronto doing plays
and doing voiceover work andfilm work.
And then I started turning myattention to community engaged
work, um, and really workingalongside groups of like TA
(01:05):
seniors, young people, um, andthinking about what it looked
like to tell stories at thegrassroots and, uh, alongside
community.
And I have to say that kind oflike reinvigorated my whole
creative practice.
Hmm.
And I started questioning ideasaround like elitism and spaces
where people are kind of allowedto create who is seen as a, sort
(01:28):
of a true creator, what that,what that really entails.
And then who is kind of left outof a lot of conversations and
what that looks like.
Um, and so over the last 10, 15years, I started working on a
project called Illumina.
Uh, and I was the director ofthat project.
And that was working with a lotof young people, newcomers to
(01:48):
Canada who were creating reallyuplifting content that
highlighted young people andshowed them as real contributors
to their society.
So I worked on that project forabout a decade.
Um, and at the same time waswriting a thesis and gave birth
to my son.
And in the last few yearsthroughout the pandemic, I
(02:09):
started drawing, like drawinglike a maniac.
I just started working ondigital designs and, uh, I had a
short film that was supported bythe Canada council for the arts.
And, um, and then I, I alsocoach creatives and I love to
think about creative process andto share my art in all kinds of
different spaces.
(02:29):
And that's been like a, aprocess of also allowing myself
to share my art and thinkingabout what it looks like to do
that as a mom, as a communitymember.
Um, and yeah, as a person whodraws on spirituality in my
work.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Awesome.
Yeah.
So we had a chat with you awhile back.
We were just meeting, we met viazoom and we, it was a blast and
we, we all actually came up witha question together it's the
first time that's ever happened,which was super exciting.
And the question we kind ofwanted to dig into today was,
um, how do you feed yourcreative life?
So it sounds like you've, uh,shifted a little bit, but your
(03:08):
core seems to have maintainedthe same.
So, uh, what do you do to feedthat, that creativity in your
life?
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Yeah, I was thinking about this, like in advance of
coming on, you know, today.
And I was thinking about reallylike this idea, and it's a quote
that the source of all craftssciences, um, anything that we
bring into being is the power ofreflection.
And I, you know, I was thinkingabout that and I was like, gosh,
(03:36):
like how many times do we giveourselves that space?
Like the space to have deep andtrue reflection on our social
reality on our inner world, onthe dynamics, in our family, the
things that are kind of comingthrough the stories that, that
are asking to be told.
Um, so I think, and I, I wasactually, it was coaching
someone yesterday and we weretalking about how to like,
(03:58):
reinvigorate those roots.
Like whether you wanna think ofyour creative life as a tree
mm-hmm.
Um, and how do you kind ofremineralize those roots when
you feel all dried up and you'relike, I'm disillusioned with
this and this isn't going theway I want and we feel drained
or we feel burnt out.
Um, and it's funny because it'salmost counterintuitive.
It's like we feel drained andburnt out.
(04:20):
So it's so hard to imagine thatwe actually have this like very
profound creative, well, butwithin ourselves, if we can only
slow down enough or make spaceenough, carve out the
distractions enough, createspace and prioritize that
creative life enough to let itkind of remineralize.
(04:42):
And I think sometimes, I mean,this is my experience.
We're scared that it's done.
We're done.
We got like, we got our, youknow, allotment of creative
stuff now.
And cause we're living in a, asociety where there's always
this scarcity mentality, right?
Like if you got it, I don't haveit.
If you win, I lose.
If you, and like, that's not hownature works.
(05:03):
That's not how creativity works.
That's not how flow works.
Um, I don't know.
That might be too existential to
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Oh, that's right on.
I'm totally into all that kindof stuff.
So
Speaker 2 (05:16):
I'm true.
And what I'm, what I really loveis your you're talking.
It's like a, it's an intuitiveprocess, creativity.
It's also, um, it's a paradigmshift where you're actually
going to an holistic viewpointof what is, what, who are you
and why, why do we feel thatcreativity is separate from us?
It's almost like when youdescribe the, you know, we have
(05:36):
this scarcity mode where the,well, we're, we're going dry.
It's almost like we ate we'reaging.
Do you know what I mean?
It's like, you know, when you,you know, you get to a certain
age, you're like, oh, I'llnever, you know what I mean, how
we like are so, um, captured byyouth and it's, you know, once
it's, it's drying out and it'salmost like, creativity's kind
of like that.
It's, it's like, it's thisfleeting moment.
(05:59):
What you're saying, it's not,it's actually a deep holistic,
well, that's really at ourroots.
And if you could kind of talkmore about that, I think it's
really fascinating.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
And like that there will be fall periods.
Mm-hmm,, you know,like I'm actually just looking
at your logo.
Right.
And it, I think like your logoactually captures this, that
creativity is it's like anythingin nature, it's cyclical.
And there are times when, likewe check in and the body or the
mind, or the heart are justlike, I'm tapped out.
I don't have anything at themoment.
(06:31):
Um, but trusting that it's like,we can stay still long enough
for some new little shoot tocome out of the ground.
And like, you know, I think herein, in Toronto we have four
seasons and we have a realwinter and to feel that like
blanket of snow and that thequiet and the stillness, and to
be like, this also happens inlife that, and spring, it comes
(06:55):
every year.
It's shocking.
It's like every year there's newlittle green leaves on those
trees.
There's buds, there's like thisabundant floral explosion, you
know, and it's, we're the same.
And we get so scared in winterbecause also we're in this
capitalist paradigm where it'slike, we're supposed to be in
perpetual spring and summermaking, making, making,
generating seating, newprojects, like I'm on the, go on
(07:17):
the, go on the go.
But like sometimes we've gottabe still
Speaker 1 (07:22):
I think.
Yeah.
I think that honestly, some ofthe most important work for
artists is, uh, that I wouldn'teven call it downtime, but for
my personal experience, most ofmy work is done inside my head.
Um, a lot of the time for verylong periods of time.
(07:43):
Um, and it's a constant planningand moving things around and
shifting ideas and, um,developing ideas.
Uh, and it's all mental.
I'm not E I don't even sketchit.
I don't write it down.
Um, it's all in my head mm-hmm and I think, and,
and it's really difficult tofeel like an artist when you
(08:04):
don't have an object to showpeople.
And, but frankly, most of my artis not even focused on the
object.
And so I've had to kind of gothrough the steps of almost
having that self-confidence thatI'm an experience based artist
and I'm, I'm all aboutinteraction.
You know, the art for me is notthe thing that people are
(08:26):
making.
It's the connection they'remaking while they're making the
art.
And so, you know, and, andhonestly, strangely enough, that
takes a lot of planning and ittakes a lot of finesse to get
even two people together thatwould normally not even wanna
engage with one another to sitdown and make art.
(08:47):
That takes a lot of energy.
Uh, and, and it, and it almost,it's like I have to mentally
it's psych myself up and that isdone during the quiet periods
where I am making anything.
And I think that, um, yeah, it'slike, you kind of get
uncomfortable cause there is,there's this idea what it means
(09:09):
in, and that means that you haveto be producing something,
something, um, and you know, atleast, and I definitely have
more of a, like, everything youdo is art idea.
And so if everybody would justkind of reflect on that and live
like that, we imagine a worldwhat that might look like, you
(09:31):
know, mm-hmm,,mm-hmm yeah.
I don't know.
What do you do, Lisa, when youfeel like you're not, you're not
where you wanna be creatively oris that, does that ever happen
to you?
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Oh yeah.
of course it happens.
I mean, yes, it happens throughdry periods and I like the, I IM
I'm a reflector, you know what Imean?
So it's like, I, I do, I'm alsoa very into spirituality and,
um, kind of diving deep into myinner world.
So I, I dive deep into my innerworld.
I start doing reflection, maybelectures, books, um, nature, um,
(10:08):
you know, I, I go, I deep divedeep inside and, and then at
some point you just have torealize like, it's okay not to
produce and what is producinganyways?
Do you know what I mean?
like, what does it meanto produce?
And I think what, you know, it'slike, for me, it's like a
remembering that we, we're not,we don't always have to, like
(10:29):
you said off have to beflowering, you know?
And I love the, the, themetaphor of the, the seasons.
I think that's really, reallypowerful.
It's like there are winters inall of us and I think, and there
are summers and Springs andfalls and, you know, and, and
they're also beautiful and rich.
And I think I agree with you,Lauren, actually, I think
winters are the richest.
(10:50):
And I think, and that's, you'respeaking about that.
It's like, winters are where thealchemy is, you know, where you
F you go into the deep dark ness, and then you find the light,
you find the gold and you'relike, whoa, I'm, I'm even more
rich than I even thought sothought.
Yeah, yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
It's almost like you distract.
It's like, I'm just thinking ofthis off the top of my head.
It's almost like that notion of,of making can almost be a
distraction from what youactually need to be making, if
that makes sense.
Yeah.
Like if you're so concentratedon producing something, because
you, you think that that's whatyou're supposed to be doing.
(11:32):
If you're this quote unquoteartist you're missing a lot,
because you're just makingsomething and you're not doing
the, the work that's involved,but I think some people need to
do that.
I think they need to make andmake and make and make and make
and dig.
That's how they dig, you know,mm-hmm um, and then
(11:52):
they get to that one that islike, oh, wow.
You know, that's what I neededto get to.
It just took the, these fivesketchbooks to get there, you
know?
And that's what it is.
I think about in terms of likefeeding your own creativity.
It really is.
It always comes back to whatleast and I are always talking
about, which is self-awareness,you need to get to know yourself
(12:14):
and to figure out what works foryou, because what, what works
for me is gonna be differentthan what works for you, Esther
than what works for you.
Lisa, like you can try on abunch of hats and, you know, and
, and then like, maybe hatworked one time and it's just
not gonna work the next time.
Right.
So you gotta have a lot of toolsin your toolbox.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Yeah.
And I think like, because thisis, I was thinking about this
too, that because our creativeengine is so closely linked to
our emotional life and ourspiritual life and even our
physical life and our lifecircumstances, mm-hmm,
, you know, it'slike everyone's set of
circumstances is gonna lookdifferent and everyone's, you
(12:55):
know, every level of thosethings could be at a different
point.
And I think, especially with thepandemic, we've seen that, you
know, even just our livingsituation, like I'm in a small
apartment, um, you know, when mychild gets up, we all get up.
Like, there's just gonna be noother way about it.
Right.
So how to craft some kind ofspace, even if it's just for,
(13:17):
you know, 10 minutes a day orwhatever that looks like.
Um, but actually dissolving thisbinary of like, when I'm
working, I'm working and whenI'm, um, you know, with my kid,
I'm with my kid mm-hmm, and it's not, I'm
not talking about multi-tasking,but I think I'm building off
what you were describing.
Lauren of like often we are,we're doing something in life
(13:38):
we're with our child andsuddenly, you know, three ideas
that we had been like working onreally seriously go boom, in
that moment.
And you're like, wow.
I was just like flying a kitewith my kid and suddenly, you
know, these three ideascoalesced.
And I think that's also part ofit is like, all these systems
(14:01):
are connected and they, they canbe coherent if we're open to
that.
You know?
And if our spirit is like, youknow, when I'm parenting, I'm
still an artist when I'mcooking, when I'm in community,
when I'm reading, I'm alwayscollecting, I'm always kind of
weaving these things into mypractice.
Um, and that can be quitepowerful.
Like
Speaker 2 (14:21):
That is powerful.
I was listening to you somethingyesterday.
It was about, um, it was aboutenergy, but it was about, um,
that we are electric beans.
So it's like, you know, we'renot, we don't, we always forget
that we, you know, we are ourhardest electric, you know what
I mean?
Our, our brains are electric.
Our cells are electric and it'slike, we have this language that
we say that, oh, we're burntout.
(14:42):
That means we have no chargeleft in us.
You know what I mean?
And it's like, it's sointeresting.
It's like, I think we need toreflect how creativity is a
charger, but also life is acharger and it doesn't have,
like you were saying, it doesn'thave to be separate.
It's not separate.
And I think when you do do thatseparation, you know that, um, I
(15:02):
gotta, I gotta do my work.
I gotta do my art.
I gotta do my kid.
, you know what I mean?
I gotta make the meal.
I, I think that's when you'recharge your electric, you know,
your being just like startsbeing depleted because it's
like, you're fragmented if thisis making sense.
Yeah,
Speaker 1 (15:20):
No.
Yeah.
Well, I was thinking about, youknow, so like we're obviously on
this big movement to geteverybody to take a, take an art
break, and a lot of artists willrespond to us and be like, oh,
well, that's what I do for myjob.
And we're like, oh yeah, that'sactually not what we're talking
about.
And I think that's what we'retalking about right now.
It's this notion that you canmake space for yourself to, to
(15:46):
get out of this, like, da, da,da, da, da, da, I gotta do this.
I've gotta do this.
And then I have to do this.
It's almost like you enter aspace when you're taking an art
break where it's all floatingaround at the same time, as
opposed to linear.
Cause that's really what it is.
That's real life.
(16:08):
Right.
But you learn to embrace it andyou learn to let it feed you as
opposed to right.
Lisa, suck it out of you.
Mm-hmm.
And so that to me is the trueessence of it.
Take an heartbreak becausethat's why I'm, I'm constantly
talking to people and be like,it's not what you think it is.
It's N you know, like, um, it'snot, you don't have to set up a
(16:31):
studio.
You don't have to be a painter.
You don't have to be aphotographer.
Mm-hmm, you can,you can sit on a bench and you
can look at the world while youlisten and pretend that you're
at a symphony.
And, and if you did that for 10minutes, to me, that's, you're
(16:51):
make an art to me.
You're witnessing art and you'remaking art.
And I, um, pretty much canguarantee that you'll feel at
least a little bit better afteryou do that, because you're,
you're snapping out of, of thatlike forced idea, right.
That forced idea that your lifehas to go in certain steps.
And then if you're not hittingyour goals, then you suck.
(17:14):
You know what I mean?
and that doesn't feedyou, right?
Yeah.
Doesn't feed you in a positiveway.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think it's, um, like, yeah, I was just thinking about this
because yesterday I was workingon a grant with a friend and
we're thinking about, you know,what are we gonna write?
What are we gonna write?
And we're really like in grantmode and grant mode, you know,
it's like, you've got all thesedeadlines and things in
deliverables, and it's 500 wordsabout this and it, and you're in
that mode.
And then suddenly we had aquestion about like the story
(17:44):
and the characters and like,what are we, what are we
developing here?
And I, I kind of was like, well,we can't, that can't happen
here.
was like atrusted friend and collaborator.
We were like, yeah, yeah.
I gotta go like, do yoga overthat one.
Or I gotta go to have a walk inthe forest over that one, or I
gotta, you know, and it'sexactly, I think this
(18:05):
description that you were like,what you were saying that you
have to go to dream world, likeyou have to go to the other part
of your brain, the other aspectof your creative life and, and
call it in, you know, and that'swhat we were saying.
We're like, let's call it in.
Like we gotta, you know, bringthis thing in because, um, and,
and I AMM always interested inhow passive or active that
(18:28):
process is.
Because again, we're like, youknow, through schooling and
through, we're always thinkinglike, come up with an idea it's
due in 10 minutes, you have tokind of like, it's always this
like attack mode thing.
Mm-hmm.
But like, I love this idea.
I think it's in the ElizabethGilbert big magic book that
like, the ideas are actuallywaiting for us to tune in the
(18:49):
ideas, wanna come, youknow, and it's just about us
being like, okay, I'm gonnastop.
I'm just gonna like close thecomputer, not do the dishes,
just make a little space andcall it in.
And that's a very different modethan, than life mode.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Yeah.
It's, it's we bean, it's like a,you know, you're just being
right.
And I think instead of doing,
Speaker 3 (19:14):
Yeah,
Speaker 2 (19:14):
It's very interesting.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Yeah.
So, um, yeah.
Oh gosh.
I'm, I'm going off on this likelittle tangent in my head as
like, how could I, like, what'sa new way for me to look at my
day to day life and help it feedme.
Cause life, life is life andit's a beautiful thing.
Um, and so, uh, you know, cuzI'm, I'm constantly thinking
about when you said doing thedishes, I was like, well, what
(19:38):
if you were doing the disheslike you were doing a dance or
something like, what could youdo give us just after the top of
your head, what do you think youcould do in your day to day?
Cause that's gonna happen nomatter what, and it is it's,
it's such a great thing.
How do you let that, thosethings you kind of have to do
become those things that feedyou, is that possible?
Speaker 3 (19:59):
Hmm.
Yeah.
I absolutely think it is.
I think you can, you can choose.
And I think a lot of this isabout being intentional, right?
It's like not just being avictim of our lives or being
reactive, right.
Like being like, well, I had todo this and I had to race here
and I had to be in a bad moodabout it.
And I had to like, it's likeactually, no, you get to choose.
(20:19):
And I, I, that's hard.
Like we don't wanna do thatbecause that's all this
responsibility is, but it'sreally annoying.
And to be more convenient, to bea victim, but to actually say
like, I wanna, um, you know, Iwanna bring this creative
question into going to the parkwith my son and I'm just gonna
let it mu around in the back ofmy mind.
(20:40):
And suddenly he's like playingwith a squirrel or he's like
throwing things down a shoot andwatching them go down and I'm
thinking about like thatmovement.
And then, you know, and then aneighbor comes up and has a
conversation with me.
And then I'm thinking about thethings that they're saying.
And, and then all that's kind ofrattling around and then you
walk by like a sign or somethingin the city and then that's in
(21:00):
there too.
And I think like when I thinkabout my film, it's called
another world.
And that film was really a poemthat I wrote my son at bedtime
when I used to have to sit inhis room till like 9:30 PM.
And I was like, I'll never beout of this room.
Like, and that poem just camethrough and it was such a gift,
you know?
But it, it came because I waskind of open and it was after
(21:21):
the murder of George, GeorgeFloyd.
And I was just thinking about somany things.
My days were really long and Iwas like, I don't know how I'm
ever gonna make art again.
And I think in those quietspaces at night, that actually
became kind of my refuge.
And I was like putting my kid tobed, but it was creative time.
It was just dreaming time.
And I think that's where thatpoem came in.
(21:43):
Speaker 2 (21:44):
I love that.
Cause I was, I was listening toBrent brown and she was saying
the exact same thing.
She was like, either you can letsomebody else write your story,
your life story or your,whatever it is, or you can
choose to write your story.
And I think that is the shift inthe paradigm where you say I'm
stopping and right now I'm gonnacreate the next chapter of my
(22:04):
life or the next paragraph of mylife.
I think that's really
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Powerful, right?
Or it's this idea of, you know,you can be an active participant
in your own life.
You can either you robot or youcan, you can.
And I'm not saying I do that.
I rarely do this.
this is a very difficultthing, but it's about
mindfulness, right?
It's about living in the presentmoment and it's, you can either
(22:32):
float through life, flow throughlife and look around and see how
absolutely amazing it all is forall of the ups and downs, the
horror, the horror versus the,and the trauma, but also the
people picking other people upduring that struggle.
And you can either live in theworld like that, where you find
(22:53):
it all and you really live itall.
That can be difficult becausethere's a lot of trauma, um, or
you can be a robot.
And I think a lot of times we'rerobots because there's a lot
going on and it's, there's a lotof trauma and it's really,
really difficult.
Right.
And that's where I think thatheartbreak comes in, that that
intentional time to reflectcomes in and it, it can be your
(23:18):
savior, right?
Because if you're really livingyour life, then you're feeling a
whole bunch of stuff and you're,and if you're really open, like
you were saying, theneverything's coming in and
you're not able to filter outand you're not able to be like,
Nope.
I only wanna look at summer.
I only wanna look at spring.
You're looking at all of it.
(23:38):
I know you're looking at it allat the same time.
Right.
And so you have to have thatspace where you can, right.
Lisa always talks about going tothe shadow where you, where you
open yourself up the shadow andyou get comfortable with talking
to your shadow and the shadow ofthe entire world, the shadow of
our history, the, the liketerrible fear of the future that
(23:59):
keeps getting like pounded onus.
Right.
Uh, cuz we're such a fearmongering culture, uh, you know,
how do you deal with that?
Because I would encourageeveryone to live openly because
that's the only way to live yourreal life.
You have to feel those.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
You
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Have to know it's all happening.
You have to acknowledge it, butit's not easy.
It's really yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
Difficult.
I think this is why askingsomeone to take an art break is
a very profound invitation.
Like it sounds like, well justsit down and grab some markers.
But like I think inherently weknow like we know probably from
being children, that there isthat opening.
And then I think to your otherpoint, like we, we have survival
(24:41):
mechanisms of shutting down andbeing robots for a very good
reason because we needed thosecoping strategies.
And sometimes we do need thosecoping strategies and there are
days where you're like, it'sfull on autopilot till 9:00 PM.
Like it's gonna be autopilot, you know, but to mark
that and be like, okay, noted,noted.
Maybe tomorrow I can make themorning not be autopilot or you
(25:04):
know, and even the morningafternoons, like I was talking
to someone the other day, theysaid, I don't get my creative
work done because in the morningI get up and it's like, I just
start with my emails.
And I start with, you know, andI said, no, like try to, to
that's my practice is, themorning is special.
The morning is my sparkly brain.
right.
But trust that there's alwaysthe afternoon.
(25:25):
There's like plenty of thingsthat you're gonna have to do.
But I find as soon as I get intothat mode, it's really hard to
go back to the sparkly brain.
It's it's often impossible.
So I think it's, it's askingourselves those things, like
when do I have that sparklybrain and how do I put lots of
like protection around it sothat I can preserve it and honor
(25:45):
it and trust that like the lifestuff's gonna get done.
Um, there's like a full 24 hoursin the day.
And I don't, I, you know, it'sthe intention setting again.
It's like, I can give myself anhour.
I can give myself half an hour.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Yeah.
I really appreciate it.
I think this is like a reallylike, um, like a real
conversation.
Do you know what I mean?
Cause I think there are people,well, no everybody's life is so
busy and I know both of you aremoms and that's a different
level of busyness where you haveto take care of, you know, and,
and, you know, nurture a being.
So it's like everybody, I thinkthis is, I love that.
(26:21):
It was like, if it's like, thisis like nuts, it's it sounded
kind of esoteric, I think forsome people.
But I think if people reflect onit, it's really kind of like
nuts and bolts about going backto who we really are.
Our true selves.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Yeah.
I think, I think it's, it's alsothe like, um, it feels very,
this whole conversation feelscyclical cuz I wanna bring it
back to, um, that point.
Like I feel like we were talkingabout winter and then you were
talking about sometimes you needto be an autopilot.
I remember the advice I got whenI was about to have my first
borns from one of my bestfriends from college, she said
(26:57):
the first four months aresurvival mode and do not judge
yourself cuz you will feel likea robot and you will be a robot
and it's biological and it'sokay.
You know?
And it's like, that's what Iwanna say is like, it's okay if
you feel like you're in windright now and it's summer
outside, it's okay.
If you're not producing what youwant to produce, it's okay.
(27:18):
Um, that's where you need to beright now.
And it's like, if it's not whereyou really wanna be, then accept
that and then make some changesand just make some decisions
about how to make it.
But is it really where you don'twanna be?
Or is it where you think you'renot supposed to be.
Right.
And so those self conversationsthat you need to have with
yourself, right.
(27:38):
In order to distinguish the realroot of this, like feeling
inside of you because everybodydoes need winter and everybody
does need to be a robotsometimes.
And we need to accept that selfabout ourselves and stop putting
so much pressure on ourselvesto, to be that maniac production
person or happy all the time.
(28:00):
Like, oh yes.
Since Sean and roses or whateverpeople wanna say, um, because
it's all, it's all us and it'sall beautiful.
Um, and it can all teach ussomething, you know, and that
that's and
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Season has its subtleties and its little
surprises.
So even in winter you getgorgeous, beautiful sunny days.
And in summer you get right dayswhere it's pouring rain.
And you know, I think I'm alwaysinterested in the dynamics of
like the more I give intowinter, the more beautiful the
spring is, or, you know, can Ifind the sunny day in the
(28:35):
winter?
Can I, and even like the shockof summer, sometimes summer we
are in full production mode andthings are just rushing through.
And that can also be reallyterrifying to, to feel like our
own capacity or the amount ofcontent that wants to come
through.
Or so I think in all of it, wefeel like society brushes up
against us and says, no, youshould be more normal, whatever
(28:57):
that is.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
I love that.
Yeah.
Awesome.
Be conversation.
Thank you.
Thank you for taking the time totalk to us.
Um, I'm sure we'll be talking toyou again soon, cuz it's always
so, so rich.
So thanks.
Uh, everybody and yeah, we'lltalk again soon.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
Take care.
Yay.
We're here.
Hi,
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Welcome.
This is Lisa and Lauren, andwe're so excited today.
We are, I'm gonna have a chatwith Esther Maloney and she's
from Canada, and we just reallywanna know who you are or tell
the world who you are.
What's your passion.
And then we'll lead into anamazing conversation.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's such a pleasure to be onwith you both.
So yeah, my name's Esther.
I live in Toronto, Canada, and Igrew up, I was born and raised
in Montreal and, uh, I've beentelling stories my whole life.
I think when I was like 10 or11, I asked my parents for a
typewriter
(00:44):
wanna sit and like type mystories.
And, um, so I studied theater.
I am an actor I'm trainedprofessionally as an actor.
And then I worked for about adecade in Toronto doing plays
and doing voiceover work andfilm work.
And then I started turning myattention to community engaged
work, um, and really workingalongside groups of like TA
(01:05):
seniors, young people, um, andthinking about what it looked
like to tell stories at thegrassroots and, uh, alongside
community.
And I have to say that kind oflike reinvigorated my whole
creative practice.
Hmm.
And I started questioning ideasaround like elitism and spaces
where people are kind of allowedto create who is seen as a, sort
(01:28):
of a true creator, what that,what that really entails.
And then who is kind of left outof a lot of conversations and
what that looks like.
Um, and so over the last 10, 15years, I started working on a
project called Illumina.
Uh, and I was the director ofthat project.
And that was working with a lotof young people, newcomers to
(01:48):
Canada who were creating reallyuplifting content that
highlighted young people andshowed them as real contributors
to their society.
So I worked on that project forabout a decade.
Um, and at the same time waswriting a thesis and gave birth
to my son.
And in the last few yearsthroughout the pandemic, I
(02:09):
started drawing, like drawinglike a maniac.
I just started working ondigital designs and, uh, I had a
short film that was supported bythe Canada council for the arts.
And, um, and then I, I alsocoach creatives and I love to
think about creative process andto share my art in all kinds of
different spaces.
(02:29):
And that's been like a, aprocess of also allowing myself
to share my art and thinkingabout what it looks like to do
that as a mom, as a communitymember.
Um, and yeah, as a person whodraws on spirituality in my
work.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Awesome.
Yeah.
So we had a chat with you awhile back.
We were just meeting, we met viazoom and we, it was a blast and
we, we all actually came up witha question together it's the
first time that's ever happened,which was super exciting.
And the question we kind ofwanted to dig into today was,
um, how do you feed yourcreative life?
So it sounds like you've, uh,shifted a little bit, but your
(03:08):
core seems to have maintainedthe same.
So, uh, what do you do to feedthat, that creativity in your
life?
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Yeah, I was thinking about this, like in advance of
coming on, you know, today.
And I was thinking about reallylike this idea, and it's a quote
that the source of all craftssciences, um, anything that we
bring into being is the power ofreflection.
And I, you know, I was thinkingabout that and I was like, gosh,
(03:36):
like how many times do we giveourselves that space?
Like the space to have deep andtrue reflection on our social
reality on our inner world, onthe dynamics, in our family, the
things that are kind of comingthrough the stories that, that
are asking to be told.
Um, so I think, and I, I wasactually, it was coaching
someone yesterday and we weretalking about how to like,
(03:58):
reinvigorate those roots.
Like whether you wanna think ofyour creative life as a tree
mm-hmm
Um, and how do you kind ofremineralize those roots when
you feel all dried up and you'relike, I'm disillusioned with
this and this isn't going theway I want and we feel drained
or we feel burnt out.
Um, and it's funny because it'salmost counterintuitive.
It's like we feel drained andburnt out.
(04:20):
So it's so hard to imagine thatwe actually have this like very
profound creative, well, butwithin ourselves, if we can only
slow down enough or make spaceenough, carve out the
distractions enough, createspace and prioritize that
creative life enough to let itkind of remineralize.
(04:42):
And I think sometimes, I mean,this is my experience.
We're scared that it's done.
We're done.
We got like, we got our, youknow, allotment of creative
stuff now.
And cause we're living in a, asociety where there's always
this scarcity mentality, right?
Like if you got it, I don't haveit.
If you win, I lose.
If you, and like, that's not hownature works.
(05:03):
That's not how creativity works.
That's not how flow works.
Um, I don't know.
That might be too existential to
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Oh, that's right on.
I'm totally into all that kindof stuff.
So
Speaker 2 (05:16):
I'm true.
And what I'm, what I really loveis your you're talking.
It's like a, it's an intuitiveprocess, creativity.
It's also, um, it's a paradigmshift where you're actually
going to an holistic viewpointof what is, what, who are you
and why, why do we feel thatcreativity is separate from us?
It's almost like when youdescribe the, you know, we have
(05:36):
this scarcity mode where the,well, we're, we're going dry.
It's almost like we ate we'reaging.
Do you know what I mean?
It's like, you know, when you,you know, you get to a certain
age, you're like, oh, I'llnever, you know what I mean, how
we like are so, um, captured byyouth and it's, you know, once
it's, it's drying out and it'salmost like, creativity's kind
of like that.
It's, it's like, it's thisfleeting moment.
(05:59):
What you're saying, it's not,it's actually a deep holistic,
well, that's really at ourroots.
And if you could kind of talkmore about that, I think it's
really fascinating.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
And like that there will be fall periods.
Mm-hmm,
at your logo.
Right.
And it, I think like your logoactually captures this, that
creativity is it's like anythingin nature, it's cyclical.
And there are times when, likewe check in and the body or the
mind, or the heart are justlike, I'm tapped out.
I don't have anything at themoment.
(06:31):
Um, but trusting that it's like,we can stay still long enough
for some new little shoot tocome out of the ground.
And like, you know, I think herein, in Toronto we have four
seasons and we have a realwinter and to feel that like
blanket of snow and that thequiet and the stillness, and to
be like, this also happens inlife that, and spring, it comes
(06:55):
every year.
It's shocking.
It's like every year there's newlittle green leaves on those
trees.
There's buds, there's like thisabundant floral explosion, you
know, and it's, we're the same.
And we get so scared in winterbecause also we're in this
capitalist paradigm where it'slike, we're supposed to be in
perpetual spring and summermaking, making, making,
generating seating, newprojects, like I'm on the, go on
(07:17):
the, go on the go.
But like sometimes we've gottabe still
Speaker 1 (07:22):
I think.
Yeah.
I think that honestly, some ofthe most important work for
artists is, uh, that I wouldn'teven call it downtime, but for
my personal experience, most ofmy work is done inside my head.
Um, a lot of the time for verylong periods of time.
(07:43):
Um, and it's a constant planningand moving things around and
shifting ideas and, um,developing ideas.
Uh, and it's all mental.
I'm not E I don't even sketchit.
I don't write it down.
Um, it's all in my head mm-hmm
and it's really difficult tofeel like an artist when you
(08:04):
don't have an object to showpeople.
And, but frankly, most of my artis not even focused on the
object.
And so I've had to kind of gothrough the steps of almost
having that self-confidence thatI'm an experience based artist
and I'm, I'm all aboutinteraction.
You know, the art for me is notthe thing that people are
(08:26):
making.
It's the connection they'remaking while they're making the
art.
And so, you know, and, andhonestly, strangely enough, that
takes a lot of planning and ittakes a lot of finesse to get
even two people together thatwould normally not even wanna
engage with one another to sitdown and make art.
(08:47):
That takes a lot of energy.
Uh, and, and it, and it almost,it's like I have to mentally
it's psych myself up and that isdone during the quiet periods
where I am making anything.
And I think that, um, yeah, it'slike, you kind of get
uncomfortable cause there is,there's this idea what it means
(09:09):
in, and that means that you haveto be producing something,
something, um, and you know, atleast, and I definitely have
more of a, like, everything youdo is art idea.
And so if everybody would justkind of reflect on that and live
like that, we imagine a worldwhat that might look like, you
(09:31):
know, mm-hmm,
I don't know.
What do you do, Lisa, when youfeel like you're not, you're not
where you wanna be creatively oris that, does that ever happen
to you?
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Oh yeah.
I mean, yes, it happens throughdry periods and I like the, I IM
I'm a reflector, you know what Imean?
So it's like, I, I do, I'm alsoa very into spirituality and,
um, kind of diving deep into myinner world.
So I, I dive deep into my innerworld.
I start doing reflection, maybelectures, books, um, nature, um,
(10:08):
you know, I, I go, I deep divedeep inside and, and then at
some point you just have torealize like, it's okay not to
produce and what is producinganyways?
Do you know what I mean?
And I think what, you know, it'slike, for me, it's like a
remembering that we, we're not,we don't always have to, like
(10:29):
you said off have to beflowering, you know?
And I love the, the, themetaphor of the, the seasons.
I think that's really, reallypowerful.
It's like there are winters inall of us and I think, and there
are summers and Springs andfalls and, you know, and, and
they're also beautiful and rich.
And I think I agree with you,Lauren, actually, I think
winters are the richest.
(10:50):
And I think, and that's, you'respeaking about that.
It's like, winters are where thealchemy is, you know, where you
F you go into the deep dark ness, and then you find the light,
you find the gold and you'relike, whoa, I'm, I'm even more
rich than I even thought sothought.
Yeah, yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
It's almost like you distract.
It's like, I'm just thinking ofthis off the top of my head.
It's almost like that notion of,of making can almost be a
distraction from what youactually need to be making, if
that makes sense.
Yeah.
Like if you're so concentratedon producing something, because
you, you think that that's whatyou're supposed to be doing.
(11:32):
If you're this quote unquoteartist you're missing a lot,
because you're just makingsomething and you're not doing
the, the work that's involved,but I think some people need to
do that.
I think they need to make andmake and make and make and make
and dig.
That's how they dig, you know,mm-hmm
(11:52):
they get to that one that islike, oh, wow.
You know, that's what I neededto get to.
It just took the, these fivesketchbooks to get there, you
know?
And that's what it is.
I think about in terms of likefeeding your own creativity.
It really is.
It always comes back to whatleast and I are always talking
about, which is self-awareness,you need to get to know yourself
(12:14):
and to figure out what works foryou, because what, what works
for me is gonna be differentthan what works for you, Esther
than what works for you.
Lisa, like you can try on abunch of hats and, you know, and
, and then like, maybe hatworked one time and it's just
not gonna work the next time.
Right.
So you gotta have a lot of toolsin your toolbox.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Yeah.
And I think like, because thisis, I was thinking about this
too, that because our creativeengine is so closely linked to
our emotional life and ourspiritual life and even our
physical life and our lifecircumstances, mm-hmm,
circumstances is gonna lookdifferent and everyone's, you
(12:55):
know, every level of thosethings could be at a different
point.
And I think, especially with thepandemic, we've seen that, you
know, even just our livingsituation, like I'm in a small
apartment, um, you know, when mychild gets up, we all get up.
Like, there's just gonna be noother way about it.
Right.
So how to craft some kind ofspace, even if it's just for,
(13:17):
you know, 10 minutes a day orwhatever that looks like.
Um, but actually dissolving thisbinary of like, when I'm
working, I'm working and whenI'm, um, you know, with my kid,
I'm with my kid mm-hmm
not talking about multi-tasking,but I think I'm building off
what you were describing.
Lauren of like often we are,we're doing something in life
(13:38):
we're with our child andsuddenly, you know, three ideas
that we had been like working onreally seriously go boom, in
that moment.
And you're like, wow.
I was just like flying a kitewith my kid and suddenly, you
know, these three ideascoalesced.
And I think that's also part ofit is like, all these systems
(14:01):
are connected and they, they canbe coherent if we're open to
that.
You know?
And if our spirit is like, youknow, when I'm parenting, I'm
still an artist when I'mcooking, when I'm in community,
when I'm reading, I'm alwayscollecting, I'm always kind of
weaving these things into mypractice.
Um, and that can be quitepowerful.
Like
Speaker 2 (14:21):
That is powerful.
I was listening to you somethingyesterday.
It was about, um, it was aboutenergy, but it was about, um,
that we are electric beans.
So it's like, you know, we'renot, we don't, we always forget
that we, you know, we are ourhardest electric, you know what
I mean?
Our, our brains are electric.
Our cells are electric and it'slike, we have this language that
we say that, oh, we're burntout.
(14:42):
That means we have no chargeleft in us.
You know what I mean?
And it's like, it's sointeresting.
It's like, I think we need toreflect how creativity is a
charger, but also life is acharger and it doesn't have,
like you were saying, it doesn'thave to be separate.
It's not separate.
And I think when you do do thatseparation, you know that, um, I
(15:02):
gotta, I gotta do my work.
I gotta do my art.
I gotta do my kid.
I gotta make the meal.
I, I think that's when you'recharge your electric, you know,
your being just like startsbeing depleted because it's
like, you're fragmented if thisis making sense.
Yeah,
Speaker 1 (15:20):
No.
Yeah.
Well, I was thinking about, youknow, so like we're obviously on
this big movement to geteverybody to take a, take an art
break, and a lot of artists willrespond to us and be like, oh,
well, that's what I do for myjob.
And we're like, oh yeah, that'sactually not what we're talking
about.
And I think that's what we'retalking about right now.
It's this notion that you canmake space for yourself to, to
(15:46):
get out of this, like, da, da,da, da, da, da, I gotta do this.
I've gotta do this.
And then I have to do this.
It's almost like you enter aspace when you're taking an art
break where it's all floatingaround at the same time, as
opposed to linear.
Cause that's really what it is.
That's real life.
(16:08):
Right.
But you learn to embrace it andyou learn to let it feed you as
opposed to right.
Lisa, suck it out of you.
Mm-hmm
And so that to me is the trueessence of it.
Take an heartbreak becausethat's why I'm, I'm constantly
talking to people and be like,it's not what you think it is.
It's N you know, like, um, it'snot, you don't have to set up a
(16:31):
studio.
You don't have to be a painter.
You don't have to be aphotographer.
Mm-hmm
can look at the world while youlisten and pretend that you're
at a symphony.
And, and if you did that for 10minutes, to me, that's, you're
(16:51):
make an art to me.
You're witnessing art and you'remaking art.
And I, um, pretty much canguarantee that you'll feel at
least a little bit better afteryou do that, because you're,
you're snapping out of, of thatlike forced idea, right.
That forced idea that your lifehas to go in certain steps.
And then if you're not hittingyour goals, then you suck.
(17:14):
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Doesn't feed you in a positiveway.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think it's, um, like, yeah, I was just thinking about this
because yesterday I was workingon a grant with a friend and
we're thinking about, you know,what are we gonna write?
What are we gonna write?
And we're really like in grantmode and grant mode, you know,
it's like, you've got all thesedeadlines and things in
deliverables, and it's 500 wordsabout this and it, and you're in
that mode.
And then suddenly we had aquestion about like the story
(17:44):
and the characters and like,what are we, what are we
developing here?
And I, I kind of was like, well,we can't, that can't happen
here.
We were like, yeah, yeah.
I gotta go like, do yoga overthat one.
Or I gotta go to have a walk inthe forest over that one, or I
gotta, you know, and it'sexactly, I think this
(18:05):
description that you were like,what you were saying that you
have to go to dream world, likeyou have to go to the other part
of your brain, the other aspectof your creative life and, and
call it in, you know, and that'swhat we were saying.
We're like, let's call it in.
Like we gotta, you know, bringthis thing in because, um, and,
and I AMM always interested inhow passive or active that
(18:28):
process is.
Because again, we're like, youknow, through schooling and
through, we're always thinkinglike, come up with an idea it's
due in 10 minutes, you have tokind of like, it's always this
like attack mode thing.
Mm-hmm
But like, I love this idea.
I think it's in the ElizabethGilbert big magic book that
like, the ideas are actuallywaiting for us to tune in the
(18:49):
ideas, wanna come
being like, okay, I'm gonnastop.
I'm just gonna like close thecomputer, not do the dishes,
just make a little space andcall it in.
And that's a very different modethan, than life mode.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Yeah.
It's, it's we bean, it's like a,you know, you're just being
right.
And I think instead of doing,
Speaker 3 (19:14):
Yeah,
Speaker 2 (19:14):
It's very interesting.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Yeah.
So, um, yeah.
Oh gosh.
I'm, I'm going off on this likelittle tangent in my head as
like, how could I, like, what'sa new way for me to look at my
day to day life and help it feedme.
Cause life, life is life andit's a beautiful thing.
Um, and so, uh, you know, cuzI'm, I'm constantly thinking
about when you said doing thedishes, I was like, well, what
(19:38):
if you were doing the disheslike you were doing a dance or
something like, what could youdo give us just after the top of
your head, what do you think youcould do in your day to day?
Cause that's gonna happen nomatter what, and it is it's,
it's such a great thing.
How do you let that, thosethings you kind of have to do
become those things that feedyou, is that possible?
Speaker 3 (19:59):
Hmm.
Yeah.
I absolutely think it is.
I think you can, you can choose.
And I think a lot of this isabout being intentional, right?
It's like not just being avictim of our lives or being
reactive, right.
Like being like, well, I had todo this and I had to race here
and I had to be in a bad moodabout it.
And I had to like, it's likeactually, no, you get to choose.
(20:19):
And I, I, that's hard.
Like we don't wanna do thatbecause that's all this
responsibility is, but it'sreally annoying.
And to be more convenient, to bea victim, but to actually say
like, I wanna, um, you know, Iwanna bring this creative
question into going to the parkwith my son and I'm just gonna
let it mu around in the back ofmy mind.
(20:40):
And suddenly he's like playingwith a squirrel or he's like
throwing things down a shoot andwatching them go down and I'm
thinking about like thatmovement.
And then, you know, and then aneighbor comes up and has a
conversation with me.
And then I'm thinking about thethings that they're saying.
And, and then all that's kind ofrattling around and then you
walk by like a sign or somethingin the city and then that's in
(21:00):
there too.
And I think like when I thinkabout my film, it's called
another world.
And that film was really a poemthat I wrote my son at bedtime
when I used to have to sit inhis room till like 9:30 PM.
And I was like, I'll never beout of this room.
Like, and that poem just camethrough and it was such a gift,
you know?
But it, it came because I waskind of open and it was after
(21:21):
the murder of George, GeorgeFloyd.
And I was just thinking about somany things.
My days were really long and Iwas like, I don't know how I'm
ever gonna make art again.
And I think in those quietspaces at night, that actually
became kind of my refuge.
And I was like putting my kid tobed, but it was creative time.
It was just dreaming time.
And I think that's where thatpoem came in.
(21:43):
Speaker 2 (21:44):
I love that.
Cause I was, I was listening toBrent brown and she was saying
the exact same thing.
She was like, either you can letsomebody else write your story,
your life story or your,whatever it is, or you can
choose to write your story.
And I think that is the shift inthe paradigm where you say I'm
stopping and right now I'm gonnacreate the next chapter of my
(22:04):
life or the next paragraph of mylife.
I think that's really
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Powerful, right?
Or it's this idea of, you know,you can be an active participant
in your own life.
You can either you robot or youcan, you can.
And I'm not saying I do that.
I rarely do this.
mindfulness, right?
It's about living in the presentmoment and it's, you can either
(22:32):
float through life, flow throughlife and look around and see how
absolutely amazing it all is forall of the ups and downs, the
horror, the horror versus the,and the trauma, but also the
people picking other people upduring that struggle.
And you can either live in theworld like that, where you find
(22:53):
it all and you really live itall.
That can be difficult becausethere's a lot of trauma, um, or
you can be a robot.
And I think a lot of times we'rerobots because there's a lot
going on and it's, there's a lotof trauma and it's really,
really difficult.
Right.
And that's where I think thatheartbreak comes in, that that
intentional time to reflectcomes in and it, it can be your
(23:18):
savior, right?
Because if you're really livingyour life, then you're feeling a
whole bunch of stuff and you're,and if you're really open, like
you were saying, theneverything's coming in and
you're not able to filter outand you're not able to be like,
Nope.
I only wanna look at summer.
I only wanna look at spring.
You're looking at all of it.
(23:38):
I know you're looking at it allat the same time.
Right.
And so you have to have thatspace where you can, right.
Lisa always talks about going tothe shadow where you, where you
open yourself up the shadow andyou get comfortable with talking
to your shadow and the shadow ofthe entire world, the shadow of
our history, the, the liketerrible fear of the future that
(23:59):
keeps getting like pounded onus.
Right.
Uh, cuz we're such a fearmongering culture, uh, you know,
how do you deal with that?
Because I would encourageeveryone to live openly because
that's the only way to live yourreal life.
You have to feel those.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
You
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Have to know it's all happening.
You have to acknowledge it, butit's not easy.
It's really yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
Difficult.
I think this is why askingsomeone to take an art break is
a very profound invitation.
Like it sounds like, well justsit down and grab some markers.
But like I think inherently weknow like we know probably from
being children, that there isthat opening.
And then I think to your otherpoint, like we, we have survival
(24:41):
mechanisms of shutting down andbeing robots for a very good
reason because we needed thosecoping strategies.
And sometimes we do need thosecoping strategies and there are
days where you're like, it'sfull on autopilot till 9:00 PM.
Like it's gonna be autopilot
that and be like, okay, noted,noted.
Maybe tomorrow I can make themorning not be autopilot or you
(25:04):
know, and even the morningafternoons, like I was talking
to someone the other day, theysaid, I don't get my creative
work done because in the morningI get up and it's like, I just
start with my emails.
And I start with, you know, andI said, no, like try to, to
that's my practice is, themorning is special.
The morning is my sparkly brain.
But trust that there's alwaysthe afternoon.
(25:25):
There's like plenty of thingsthat you're gonna have to do.
But I find as soon as I get intothat mode, it's really hard to
go back to the sparkly brain.
It's it's often impossible.
So I think it's, it's askingourselves those things, like
when do I have that sparklybrain and how do I put lots of
like protection around it sothat I can preserve it and honor
(25:45):
it and trust that like the lifestuff's gonna get done.
Um, there's like a full 24 hoursin the day.
And I don't, I, you know, it'sthe intention setting again.
It's like, I can give myself anhour.
I can give myself half an hour.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Yeah.
I really appreciate it.
I think this is like a reallylike, um, like a real
conversation.
Do you know what I mean?
Cause I think there are people,well, no everybody's life is so
busy and I know both of you aremoms and that's a different
level of busyness where you haveto take care of, you know, and,
and, you know, nurture a being.
So it's like everybody, I thinkthis is, I love that.
(26:21):
It was like, if it's like, thisis like nuts, it's it sounded
kind of esoteric, I think forsome people.
But I think if people reflect onit, it's really kind of like
nuts and bolts about going backto who we really are.
Our true selves.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Yeah.
I think, I think it's, it's alsothe like, um, it feels very,
this whole conversation feelscyclical cuz I wanna bring it
back to, um, that point.
Like I feel like we were talkingabout winter and then you were
talking about sometimes you needto be an autopilot.
I remember the advice I got whenI was about to have my first
borns from one of my bestfriends from college, she said
(26:57):
the first four months aresurvival mode and do not judge
yourself cuz you will feel likea robot and you will be a robot
and it's biological and it'sokay.
You know?
And it's like, that's what Iwanna say is like, it's okay if
you feel like you're in windright now and it's summer
outside, it's okay.
If you're not producing what youwant to produce, it's okay.
(27:18):
Um, that's where you need to beright now.
And it's like, if it's not whereyou really wanna be, then accept
that and then make some changesand just make some decisions
about how to make it.
But is it really where you don'twanna be?
Or is it where you think you'renot supposed to be.
Right.
And so those self conversationsthat you need to have with
yourself, right.
(27:38):
In order to distinguish the realroot of this, like feeling
inside of you because everybodydoes need winter and everybody
does need to be a robotsometimes.
And we need to accept that selfabout ourselves and stop putting
so much pressure on ourselvesto, to be that maniac production
person or happy all the time.
(28:00):
Like, oh yes.
Since Sean and roses or whateverpeople wanna say, um, because
it's all, it's all us and it'sall beautiful.
Um, and it can all teach ussomething, you know, and that
that's and
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Season has its subtleties and its little
surprises.
So even in winter you getgorgeous, beautiful sunny days.
And in summer you get right dayswhere it's pouring rain.
And you know, I think I'm alwaysinterested in the dynamics of
like the more I give intowinter, the more beautiful the
spring is, or, you know, can Ifind the sunny day in the
(28:35):
winter?
Can I, and even like the shockof summer, sometimes summer we
are in full production mode andthings are just rushing through.
And that can also be reallyterrifying to, to feel like our
own capacity or the amount ofcontent that wants to come
through.
Or so I think in all of it, wefeel like society brushes up
against us and says, no, youshould be more normal, whatever
(28:57):
that is.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
I love that.
Yeah.
Awesome.
Be conversation.
Thank you.
Thank you for taking the time totalk to us.
Um, I'm sure we'll be talking toyou again soon, cuz it's always
so, so rich.
So thanks.
Uh, everybody and yeah, we'lltalk again soon.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
Take care.
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