March 22, 2023 • 38 mins
Lisa and Lauren, Co-founding Directors of Art is Moving, chat with Ivy Ross and Susan Magsamen about their new book, "Your Brain on Art: How the Arts Transform Us." A great deal is covered in the conversation including how the education system fails students when it comes to taking an art break, why fear plays a huge role in understanding the positive impact of art, and much more. Watch the conversation or listen to it on most podcast platforms.
We all have a sense that the arts are “good for us.” Now, we have a deeply researched and engaging new book that explains why.
Arts and aesthetic experiences rewire the brain—with significant implications for addressing the global health and wellbeing crisis. The arts are also a catalyst for helping us to flourish, build strong communities and learn better—even doctors are prescribing museum visits!
In Your Brain on Art: How the Arts Transform Us (March 21, 2023; Random House), co-authors Susan Magsamen, Founder and Director of the International Arts + Mind Lab at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine and Ivy Ross, Vice President of Design for the hardware product area at Google, explain the emerging field of neuroaesthetics and what it means for our lives.
Neuroarts is the study of how arts and aesthetic experiences change the brain, body, and behavior and how this knowledge can be translated to advance health and wellbeing for billions of people. Pouring over the data, Magsamen and Ross found that just 20 minutes of art a day makes a huge difference as either the maker or the beholder.
Think: Singing in the shower. Microdosing coloring books. Dipping into a sound bath between meetings. Forest bathing over lunch.
Through the power of these aesthetic experiences, circuits and neuropathways in your brain are activated, altering a cascade of physical and mental changes including anxiety and stress. Short bursts of art—no talent required—will enhance your life, whether you are eight or 80 years old. In fact, one or more art experiences a month can extend your life by ten years.
Packed with dozens of studies and interviews with leading scientists and artists including David Byrne, Your Brain on Art shows how to take advantage of everyday art and aesthetic experiences, including:
Sound: how vibration and frequencies are being used to optimize creativity and cognition
Architecture: why the built environment affects how we think, feel and perform
Visual Arts: how painting and mask making can alleviate PTSD and trauma
Nature: how access to the natural world relieves stress and anxiety
Dancing: why people with Parkinson’s Disease and stroke have improved movement
Music: how what we hear has a profound effect on your memory
Thanks to Your Brain on Art, we are now proving that the arts are not just nice to have—they are essential to our very survival. We’ll be in touch soon to discuss coverage possibilities with you.
More at https://www.yourbrainonart.com/
Learn more about the Take an Art Break Movement on the Art is Moving website here.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
All right.
Welcome to Artist Moving.
This is Lisa Lauren.
So excited about these twoladies here today.
It's Susan and Ivy, and if youcould please introduce yourself
and then we'll start thebeautiful conversation.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Well, thank you for having us.
My name's Susan Maxam, and I'mthe director of the
International Arts and Mind Labat Johns Hopkins University, and
also the co-director of theNeuro Arts Blueprint.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
And, hi, I'm Ivy Ross.
I'm currently the vice presidentof Design for the hardware
products at Google, but I havebeen an am an artist, received
an NEA grant, and, um, I've beeninvolved in art and making my
whole life.
Speaker 4 (00:41):
Oh, that's awesome.
Uh, thanks for being here.
Uh, as everyone knows it'slistening, um, we always start
our conversations off with aquestion.
And the question we have for thetwo of you today is what happens
to your brain on art?
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Well, I, I'm gonna start by saying everything
everywhere, all at once.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
.
I love it.
Speaker 4 (01:06):
Oh man, what a splendid movie too.
Woo.
I could talk about that one.
You do.
I've watched
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Times and I think I need to watch it.
Another five.
It's just, it's really, it'sreally layered.
Right.
And, and I think that's a reallygreat, um, um, metaphor for your
brain own art.
You know, our brains are socomplicated and so dynamic.
And you know what, Ivy and Ihave found out that, you know,
we're really truly wired forart.
(01:32):
Um, over the last 20 years,advances in technology have
really allowed us to get insideour heads and to really start to
understand kind of what ishappening.
And because the, the, we bringthe world in through our senses,
this capacity for taste andsmell and touch is so
extraordinary.
Um, and those sensorialexperiences really trigger so
(01:55):
many, uh, neurotransmitters andhormones that induce what's
called neuroplasticity.
So, you know, at the basiclevel, neuroplasticity is really
the process of sculptingneuronal connections at a
synaptic level.
So you're born with a hundredbillion neurons.
Each of us have quadrillionsynapse synaptic connections in
(02:16):
our brains, and those synapticconnections create endless
circuits and neuro pathways.
So you think about it this way,everything that you do, your
emotions, your memories, yourphysical movements all come down
to the way that these circuitsconnect and grow.
And what we have seen in theresearch over the last 20 years
is that the arts and aestheticexperiences are exceptional at
(02:40):
creating these amazing synapticconnections that are highly
salient, meaning they matter toyou.
And they really lay thegroundwork for health and
wellbeing and learning andcommunity building and all these
things that we do all the timein our lives.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
And, you know, there's what your brain is
doing.
And then there's also the factthat the arts allow you to
creatively express something.
And we have found that we, it'ssuper important cuz we all have
microtraumas every day.
And unfortunately some peoplehave huge traumas.
But, you know, I think we'vebeen taught to kind of repress
(03:17):
our feelings and not expressourselves.
And by the way, when we say thearts, we are talking about, um,
a wide range of, you know, pavisual arts, making, singing,
dancing, architecture.
Um, it's quite a range, um, ofarts.
But there's a great quote wehave in the book from Julie
Bolty Taylor that says, we thinkthat we're thinking beings that
(03:42):
have learned how to feel, butwe're actually feeling beings
that have learned how to think.
And when you think about that,it turns the whole thing upside
down.
As Susan said, we are wired forart.
We are, we are feeling beingsfirst.
And then our brain developed tothink.
And I just don't think that weunderstand that enough.
Cuz if we did, we wouldunderstand how important it is
(04:04):
to be expressing our feelings.
And I think the arts is such aperfect way to express.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
I love that.
So the curious, how did you bothget into this field?
Um, what was the, you know, amoment in time that you're like,
I really wanna divulge this tothe world that artists, um, for
our wellbeing?
Speaker 2 (04:24):
You know, it's funny in hindsight, I think the, your
rear view mirror, you kind ofcan see where you came from.
Um, and this has been a reallygreat question that people have
asked us, and it's kind of agift to think about.
Um, you know, I've always been avery curious person and I've
always just wanted to understandwhy things were working the way
they were.
(04:45):
And I've also always lovednature, but when I was, I'm a
twin, and when I was 12 yearsold, my twin sister had a very
tragic, uh, farming accident andshe almost lost her leg.
And she and I are like this,we're super close.
And when that happened, um, sheexperienced physical and
psychological trauma that wasbeyond words.
(05:06):
She really couldn't express howshe felt, but she was, um,
really in, in deep emotionalpain.
And she started to draw and shestarted to paint and she was
able to begin to put in visualterms what she couldn't find in
words, and then was able to comeback and ultimately put words to
those images.
Now we understand thatneurologically now, but then,
(05:30):
um, it was just a gateway tosome cognitive and emotional
relief.
And for me, I was able to knowmy sister's deep emotional pain
through what she made so that Ithink, you know, only now can I
really see that that was anotherway of communication that was so
, uh, natural, but really becameanother way for us to
(05:53):
communicate and for me tounderstand that we don't really,
words are the least of what wedo do to communicate and to
express ourselves.
And then for me, in my foursister's crazy household, I'd go
out into the woods to findbalance and peace.
And, and so I'm a, I'm a bignature lover and, and, um, live
on 20 acres on a stream.
And so that's continued to be areal through line for me and a
(06:14):
gardener.
And, you know, I love the smellof dirt and all that.
And so, um, so I think that'show I came into it.
Um, and you know, Ivy's got areally beautiful story too.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
And by the way, before I tell my story, you
know, nature Susan brings upnature.
Nature is the most neuroaesthetic place there is because
it has, if you think about it,um, color, texture, temperature,
sound, um, it has all of thoseelements and we came from that
place.
And so we feel alive when all ofthese senses are ignited.
(06:48):
But, um, my story is my, my, um,parents would get into, into
some arguments and what I woulddo is close my door and I would
start to beat my drum.
I had a little drum and I wouldfind some incredible, um,
(07:10):
relaxation and de-stressed by.
And I realized my heart wasgetting in residence with that
drum beat.
And the, and I would call mylittle brother in when the
fighting was going on and hewould listen to that.
And it turned out he grew up towanna be a musician.
And it's amazing.
So the world of sound, uh,allowed us to kind of block out
(07:31):
some things we didn't wanna hearand really just get in resonance
with the sound.
And I also started making, um,collages at a very early age in
my room because I wanted to putmy own world together, I think.
And using the differentmaterials allowed me to do that.
(07:51):
Uh, and my father was a designerand a creative, but I really
realized when Susan and I threwall of our conversations that my
making and my sensing came from,um, solutions to any, you know,
emotional trauma.
And then it became my professionin terms of being, you know, an
artist.
My work is in 12 museums andit's not about that because you
(08:14):
find out when your ego getssatisfied, it's the journey.
It's not that end goal.
And that was the gift I got from, um, getting my work in museums
is realizing life is not aboutthis holy grail and obtainment
and, you know, the book, it wasreally important for us to
convey that it's not about goodart or bad art speaking, you
(08:39):
know, it really is about thewhat happens when you're in the
act of either making orbeholding.
And I think, yeah,unfortunately, so many people
who have a lot to express andyou could do it just for
yourself, right?
And, and, and that, um, don't doit because I'm not good at it,
you know, concept, it's
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Shameful.
You're shamed into not makingright.
And ultimately that
Speaker 4 (09:03):
Yeah, I, that was gonna be my next question for
you guys.
So we encounter a lot of people.
Cause I think as childrenexpressing yourself through the
arts, whether it be throughdrumming or painting or drawing
or, um, even honestly likescreaming and jumping up and
down, uh, or running around yourbackyard, that I think bec
(09:24):
becomes naturally as you weresuggesting.
Uh, and then there is somethingthat happens in your tween ish
age and it's, I, and I think ithas to do neurologically, right?
You begin to see the world as ajudger and you want to fit into
those social norms.
And then you spend andthen you tend to spend your
(09:46):
adult life almost trying to getback to that place where you
were as a kid or, or hopefullyyou do get back to that place
because that's how you work outall the stuff that you haven't
had a chance to work out cuz youdenied it for so long.
So we're kind of on a mission tobe like, how do we stop that gap
in time, uh, from happening, uhmm-hmm.
(10:06):
.
And I think your book is agreat, great way of doing that,
of, of explaining to people thatlike, here's the evidence and
like, don't let that shame thatyou might feel from some random
art, usually random art teacheror some comment you hear from an
adult in your life, uh, stopyou.
Because it really is not aboutthe product, it's about the
(10:28):
process and it's about theexperience.
You know?
Um, is there, you know, what doyou think?
Like what could we do asindividuals?
What could we do as a society,uh, as parents, as teachers, as
you know?
Speaker 3 (10:41):
Yeah.
Well you're, you're, you'reabsolutely right.
And Sir Ken Robinson did thisexperiment.
We went to schools and inkindergarten who's an artist and
everyone hand go up and thenfirst grade, half the hands,
second grade, hardly any.
And by third grade, all thehands were down.
And that's really because ofwhat you said, judgment.
You know, a teacher comes aroundand says, oh no, that's not the
way you draw a tree.
(11:02):
Right?
And, um, all of a sudden thatstops that, you know, because
of, of the, the judging.
And, and it's critical that weget the judgment out and some of
these arts, you know, back intoschools.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Well, and this incentive systems are not set up
for creativity yet.
Interestingly, that's what crethat's what businesses are
looking for, right?
Is innovation.
So you see all these art formsbeing taken out of school.
Um, yet at the other end of the,the, the lifespan, which what
you're theoretically trainingpeople for, you're asking'em to
(11:37):
have the skills that you're nottraining them for.
So the tension of oppositesthere doesn't make any sense.
But, but also I think you'retalking about, um, middle school
, um, it's even younger thanthat, right?
It's really, it's really anelementary school where we start
to feel like, oh, we have tolike fill out the little bubbles
on the test and we have to situp straight, we have to conform
to what's, what's going on.
(11:58):
And there's a lot of stuffaround identity and
collaboration and community thatgets lost too.
So our ability to do this, to beable to understand how each of
us are communicating, expressingourselves also gets lost.
Which that's another thingthat's really hard to make up
later on.
Um, and then with kids withneurodiversity, you know, we
(12:20):
know that kids learn bestthrough making, through
multi-sensory experiences, andthey get taken out of the
schools also.
So that really makes a hugedifference in, um, the capacity
to be able to learn and grow andchange.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
And the why, why, I mean, we kinda all know, but can
you explain from the book thewhy why did this happen in our
society?
You know, at some point it, itwas integrated in our society
and then it just got,
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Yeah.
You know, we interviewed someindigenous tribes and, and in
those times there was no wordfor art because it was the
culture.
It was storytelling, singing,dancing, drawing it.
You didn't need a word for itbecause it was life and then
that's it.
Yeah.
, it just was.
And then I think, you know,industrial revolution, we, we
(13:09):
started optimizing forproductivity and we pushed all
the arts aside and thinking thatwould make us a happy and
healthy society, and we're not.
And so, right.
Um, you know, we're, we're, whatwe wanna look at is, um, you
know, sometimes you have to go alittle backwards and the answer
is there, you know, like we saidis, Susan and I looked into
(13:31):
this.
We were wired, we we're designedfor the arts.
And so we've, we've, you know,got to bring it, um, back in, in
a healthy diet.
Just like we exercise, we nowknow science has got drilled in
our head.
We have to exercise 20 minutes aday, we have to sleep eight
hours.
And, um, we need to do some formof art 20 minutes a day.
You know, whether it's themaking or engaging in, if we're
(13:54):
gonna live longer and happier
Speaker 2 (13:56):
And we've left so much on the table, right.
You know, if you're not bringingall of that capa human capacity
forward, you know, your questionabout why one other aspect of
that is in the seventies whenthe Russians, um, came out with
Sputnik, that is when STEM wasborn, it was, uh, we can't play
anymore.
(14:16):
We can't mess around anymore.
If we're gonna keep up in theglobal race, it's all business,
right?
And so I think for a lot of theright reasons, we made the wrong
decisions.
And so we went off course andnow we're so off course and, you
know, in California Proposition28 is now bringing some of the
arts back into school, and it'snot bringing them back in for
(14:36):
enrichment or, you know, becauseit's sort of a high thing,
highest society thing to do.
Or even because you might becomean artist when you grow up.
It's more so from a social andemotional, uh, connection and
for helping to, withself-regulation and for
executive function and all thosethings that we're wired for
that, what the arts teach us,even if we aren't quote unquote
(14:59):
good at it.
So, um, and Ivy mentioned beinga maker, there's also great
benefit in being a beholder, um,and being able to listen to
music and view art and, and usevirtual reality and, and go to
theater and, you know, seethings happening in, in nature.
So beholding is the other sideof making, it's the other, it's
(15:20):
the other side of the cointhat's worth lifting up to.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
Yeah.
In fact, doctors prescribing in,in Canada and London, England
for patients to go to museumsliterally writing a prescription
because, you know, for our brainto make these new connections,
as Susan said, we need to be,uh, confronted with new things,
see new things, um, and we tendto get comfortable and not do
(15:43):
that.
Speaker 4 (15:44):
Yeah.
I I think that's a actually areally good point.
Okay.
So I wanna say one thing interms of like schooling and how
we enter art and schooling, andwe tend to enter it from a space
of lessons, right?
Just because of classroommanagement and like proving to
your particular state, at leastin the United States, that
(16:05):
you're fulfilling the 2.1 ecthing that they're telling you
to do.
And, um, I'm sort of on amission.
I have, uh, two elementaryschool kids and a preschool
child, and I'm trying to getpeople to understand that my
notion of taking an art break.
And so I'm, I'm trying to findthe right language and you, you
hit on it, Susan.
(16:25):
It's this idea of like, thatit's, you can, you can be
involved in art and so manydifferent ways mm-hmm.
, you can watch amovie and you can talk about
that movie.
And that is an art experience.
You know, you can listen to asong and try to try to piece out
how many different instrumentsare in that song.
(16:46):
You can scribble on a piece ofpaper and then color it.
And that is art.
And I guess I wish there wasmore of that in the school
system.
And I think I don't, I don'tknow.
Is it because it's feelscattywampus?
Does it feel unorganized?
Um, do we need to introduce itin an organized way?
Um, you know,
Speaker 2 (17:06):
God, I hope not.
Um, you know, I think, I thinkwe've, yeah, we, you know, I
used to, I, I started a companycalled Curiosity Kits, which
were hands-on learning materialsfor kids in art sciences and
world cultures.
And we used to call them glitterand non glitter moms.
Y the non glitter moms werelike, you know, you know, no, no
glitter moms were like, let'sget messy.
Let's get in this.
And those kids were joyful,happy, learned more, um, were
(17:30):
really sort of engaged becauseit was okay to be messy.
And I think sometimes somehowwe've homogenized learning also,
like it has to becompartmentalized.
And you know, you just mentionedsome really great things,
scribbling.
I think this is where thescience is really our friend,
our, the science is telling usscribbling and doodling and
coloring are about focus,attention lowering cortisol.
(17:54):
Turns out that doodler havebetter memory recall than non
doodler.
That's pretty cool.
So, you know, we know a lot moreabout why these, um, experiences
that we call art actually aregood for us neurobiologically
psychologically and from abehavioral change point of view.
And so to be able to start touse those in service of
(18:15):
learning, in service ofwellbeing, and give teachers
back the joy of teaching, thejoy of, uh, exchange.
Like, you know, I teach atHopkins and, and there's nothing
worse than standing in front ofa group of people who are
totally disengaged.
It's the loneliest experienceever.
But when you put'em in a circleand you ask'em who they are and
what they do, and you say, helpme understand this, it's
(18:38):
beautiful.
And, and everybody leavesfeeling seen, engaged, and has
taken something away.
So, you know, I thinkeverything, everything is an art
right?
In in the sense of, you know,how do you come at teaching,
teach the art of teaching, um,you know, the art of, of, of
engagement.
And so I think we have to reallyreimagine what school looks like
(18:59):
and not, you know, for yearsit's been, the arts have been
around the outside of school asopposed to being right in the
middle of it and making itmessy.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Yeah.
I have a, so I'm, this book isfor the masses to really
understand that art should bepart of our lives.
It's not was it is life, art islife.
So if you guys could break downfrom the book, what you learned
is there's making sensing andbeholding, like, if you could
give us some examples of that toopen the door for people that
(19:32):
kind of don't know what you'retalking about.
You know, cause Lauren and I,through our heartbreak mission,
kind of like, you know, youcould walk in nature and that's
amazing.
Like you said, nature is likethe epic greatest artist in the
world.
So if you could open the door towhat is making, what is that,
what is beholding, um, to ouraudience that kind of doesn't
understand
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Well, would, would it be helpful maybe to maybe to
step back and just explain toyou how the book is organized?
Yes.
Um, cause I, cause what, earlyon we had a couple choices to
make.
We, we could make the bookaround art forms.
So here's music, here'sperforming arts, digital arts,
dance.
Um, or we could do it around themoments in our lives where we
(20:16):
need different things to help usfeel whole and happy and
healthy.
And that's how we organize thebook.
So there's a book on wellbeing,there's a book on mental health,
there's a book, there's a,sorry, there's a chapter on
mental health.
There's a chapter on physicalhealth chapter on learning
flourishing, which is living,doing more than just coping and
that community and then the artsof the future.
(20:38):
What does it look like when thistechnology starts to really
create hybrid experiences?
So we, I've used a beautifulterm yesterday that we wove
together all the different artsas a maker, end of beholder, end
a sensor to be able to, um, meetthose moments in our lives where
those things, um, show up andcan be very helpful for us.
(21:00):
So I'll just give you oneexample and then give it to Ivy.
In the trauma and, and mentalhealth chapter, we talk to, uh,
first responders who are usingthe arts to address P T S D and
trauma because they're firstresponders and they're, they're
experiencing these incrediblesituations and they need to
defrag, they need to get thisstuff in them out.
(21:21):
So some of them are painting,other people are using visual
arts.
And I you tell about Judy, cuzthis is a beautiful story.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
Oh, someone we know that we interviewed, um, was
actually, she wasn't even apainter, she was an English
major and she had had sometrauma in her lineage.
And she realized, um, becauseshe was starting to date, uh,
Hopi Indian.
(21:50):
And she said to her Hopi Indianfriend, you know, in the old
days you guys used to, and Ithink he wanted to learn how to
paint.
And she said, well just start topaint and then wash over it with
white, just like they did in thecaves.
Like no connection to what youput out, like no attachment.
And you'll be amazed, you know,with the no judgment, just put
(22:12):
it out.
And then they used to cover overit and then they would tell
another story and then tellanother story.
And so we have a picture of thisin the book in the Centerfold.
Um, she ended up saying, wait aminute, I'm gonna do that for
myself.
And she ended up doing somethingcalled the continuous painting
where she would literally, andthey're absolutely beautiful and
thank God she photographedbefore she painted over it, just
(22:35):
for her own documentation totell her own story back to
herself, these images.
But she would put it on thecanvas and then she'd paint over
white and then the next dayshe'd do something else and then
like a figure would start toemerge and um, then she'd paint
over it and then something elall like her, her own life story
(22:56):
and trauma would start to comeout in this very abstract way.
And it was incredibly healingfor her.
So at the end of the day, sheended up with what she calls,
there's a white, the whitecontinuous painting, the red and
the black.
Cuz in each of them she ended upwith it's all black or all white
or all red, cuz that's the colorshe used in between.
But you walk up to that paintingand all it is now is very thick,
(23:21):
gooey cuz there's layers of herstory, you know, of 40 different
paintings underneath.
And you could feel the energyjust coming off of that pure
white canvas because that is theway that she brought out her
story and reflected it back toherself.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
And she's the mayor.
We're the beholder and there's asensorial experience through the
whole thing.
So it all gets woven together.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (23:44):
Yeah.
I love that.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
What, um, what would you say tosomeone, like what could be a
first step for someone who nowis like, you know what, I
totally believe you.
Um, I need to integrate art intomy life.
It is part of who I am and I, Iknow it'll be better for me, but
I'm, I'm a little afraid whatcould be a first?
(24:08):
Cause there's a lot of feararound art, right?
So what could be a first stepfor someone to take?
Speaker 2 (24:16):
So I, should I go on?
Speaker 3 (24:18):
There's a lot, but go ahead.
Pick up
Speaker 2 (24:20):
.
Well, so I always say that I'mthe poster child for this field
because I can't dance, can'tsing, can't write, can't dance.
But I do it all the time, right?
And so, you know, humm in theshower, sing to the radio.
You mentioned doodle cooking isa great thing.
Gardening.
Um, I'm a knitter.
Um, but I knit one stitch and Imake, you know, a a million mile
(24:43):
long scarf, right?
, I'm also a collage.
Um, and I, I, I love to collageIvy.
Ivy was talking about how youcreate your own world by putting
these things together.
And you know, that's not, youdon't have to be, it's not high
art, right?
Um, there's a lot of those kindsof things that you can do really
easily and instantly, and theyhave an immediate effect on you.
(25:04):
That's the other thing.
Um, it's not like you have towait for it to, to feel it
dance, dance in your livingroom.
Um, you know, or did,
Speaker 3 (25:11):
Didn't we find out there was an adult coloring
book?
You know, if you're scared to gooutside the line, like get a
coloring book and start to color, um, you know, that, that would
be terrific.
And we also found out inwriting, you know, because
writing is also an art.
Um, but you could do somethingas simple as writing down a
secret that you haven't toldanyone.
(25:33):
The research shows that just bywriting it, and it doesn't
matter whether you throw it awayafter you write it or burn it,
the fact that you've actuallybrought it out, um, and put it
on a piece of paper changes howyour brain, you know, thinks
about that secret
Speaker 2 (25:49):
And you lighten your cognitive load instantly.
So you know, you're, and thatmakes sense, right?
You're lighten your load and Ilove that term.
And so lightening your cognitiveload means you have more
capacity for other things.
It's not waiting you down,
Speaker 4 (26:03):
Right?
You're like not turning andturning and turning that thing
anymore.
Or like
Speaker 1 (26:07):
I say, baggage, right?
So what I'm hearing is emotionshave baggage, and if you don't
release them, get'em out intothe world, that's when you kinda
implode on
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Yourself, and
can make you sick.
It can make you physically sicktoo, right?
So the emotional physicalconnection is so important in
some of this work as well.
It's a way to keep, keep youhealthy.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Yeah.
And we've learned that, you know, with neuroplasticity, as you
have these new salentexperiences, your brain prunes
away some of those oldconnections.
So that's why over time you canget an entirely newly wired
brain.
You know, they, um, and so someof these, these old connections
that maybe kept you stuck incertain ways, if they get pruned
(26:50):
out, you know, you're adifferent person, but you have
to have these new experiences,which means, you know, putting
yourself in new experiences,whether it's looking at new
things as the beholder, or makeor the maker trying, making
something good or bad.
Um, these meaningful, theseexperiences will make new
connections.
And ultimately your brain willhave to prune the old, because
(27:11):
there won't be enough room.
Which is why we say if you do iteach day for 20 minutes, you're
making new connections.
And eventually the the old oneswill have to, you know, go away.
And if the old ones are salient,meaning truly emotionally
memorable in a positive way, youknow, they will stay with you.
But, um, the brain prunes thosekind of has this hierarchy.
Right, Susan?
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Yeah.
And, and even with somethinglike dementia or Alzheimer's,
you know, you, you, everybodyknows that when you sing to
someone with Alzheimer's, oftenthey'll come back and you're,
it's extraordinary.
I I always say it's the closestthing to magic.
Well, the hippocampus is thepart of the brain that
short-term where short-termmemories are held, and as
they're consolidated, theyconsolidate into other parts of
(27:54):
the cerebral cortex.
So what's amazing aboutsomething like music for
longevity is the brain willdisseminate or distribute that
information in different partsof the cortex.
So when you're singing, you're,you're not pulling from the
hippocampus.
The hippocampus is destroyedbecause of Alzheimer's or
dementia, but it's other partsof the brain that have
(28:14):
duplicated and stored thisknowledge.
And that's what's we're, we'recalling on in these kinds of
singing experiences orautobiographical information.
And so the brain has thiscomplexity that it, especially
with the arts, where you're ableto, um, pull on information that
might have been lost in one partof the brain, but is now being
(28:35):
stored in not just one, butmultiple parts of the brain.
And I think that's, that's sortof extraordinary.
That's
Speaker 1 (28:40):
Extraordinary.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
Yeah.
In fact, through Susan and Ilearned that my husband and I
should exchange our favoriteplaylist of our favorite songs.
So God forbid we go into any ofthese states, you know, to have
our loved one play that playlistwill get us out of love.
That
Speaker 4 (28:57):
I think that's an incredible idea.
And so, I mean, it's, that'svery endearing.
I like that.
I like that idea.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
One question that come up for me.
You were talking aboutcommunity.
We really haven't hit on thecommunity.
How, what is this?
Does it, is that, um, thecollective unconscious or what
is the community aspect of thispart of the book?
Speaker 2 (29:16):
Well, we were very fortunate to talk with Ieo
Wilson, the evolutionarybiologist, before he passed
away.
And, and he opens up thecommunity chapter talking about
the way that we are, um, what hecalls used social.
So there's only five or sixspecies on the planet that we
know of that are used social.
These are one of them, answeranother.
(29:37):
Humans are another.
What it means is that we arebuilt to take care of one
another, not to be, um, selfishor individualistic, even though
it might seem like sometimesthat's true.
In fact, that's how we're wired.
So all of these different artsand ex ways of expressing
ourselves or thinking aboutstorytelling around the
(29:59):
campfire, around dancing, uh,cave paintings that are messages
to each other are all about oursurvival as a species, not about
our individual survival.
So, you know, Ivy mentioned this, that there wasn't a word for
art because communities lived inthat life of making and doing
and creating and beholdingbecause that's how the culture
(30:22):
stayed strong rituals,traditions are all about culture
and also generationally movingthat information forward.
So when you think about, um, youknow, bring that to today, how
can community be fostered andbuilt?
And how can communities thathave been decimated through
racism and throughunder-resourced communities, how
(30:43):
can they come back?
And it's really through art.
Uh, we talk about this in thebook that art creates culture.
Culture creates community, andcommunity creates humanity.
So we, we talked, we lifted up a, uh, a group, uh, in, in
Chicago called the SweetwaterFoundation.
And Emmanuel Pratt is the personthat sort of initiated that work
(31:04):
where he, um, bought someacreage, burnt out acreage in,
on the south side of Chicago,and with the community
co-created first communitygardens, and then a place for
coming together and eatingtogether.
And it turns out scientificallythat when you eat together, when
youve together, you're lesscombative, you're less
judgmental, and you're morelikely to get along, which I
(31:26):
think is pretty extraordinary.
Um, so, you know, shout out forthe family dinner table.
.
But, but also, but also thatthey then built a, a performance
pavilion where people cometogether all different ages,
intergenerationally, to shareknowledge to, to learn from each
other.
So co-learning, peer learning,then they build a wood shop and
(31:46):
a workshop where they make art,they make furniture, they do all
kinds of things together.
Now they're building housing.
And so this is a communitythat's not getting a lot of
federal or state money, but arebuilding a community together.
And they've now connected withother communities around the
world that are learning fromeach other about how to
co-create community and buildstrong community in some of the
(32:08):
worst, um, areas that have beenreally redlined and cut off and
isolated, um, by design and arenow coming back and, and
thriving.
And it's, it's really beautifulwork.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
And you think about, you know, and, and women who
would have quilting beestogether mm-hmm.
and now we're,we're hearing about, you know,
there's a lot of, um, stress incolleges and especially with
young women and they're creatingknitting circles.
They're just getting togetherand starting to knit together,
together.
And there's something about thataction of, it's almost, you're
(32:42):
very present.
I think, you know, when you haveto make things, you have to be
present.
So you're sitting in a circleand you're each knitting your
own thing, but you're present tothe moment and talking.
And, um, we also learned,actually, you know, I think it
was David Byrne who was talkingabout dancing and you think
about square dancing in the townhall and in the old days, you
(33:03):
know, there was, the communitywould come together and dance
together.
And there's something about whenyou get in step together, it, it
bonds people.
And so a lot of things that we,you know, we take for granted
and they just were the waythings were.
Um, uh, there's, there's sciencein why we haven't articulated,
(33:24):
but why we were drawn to bedoing those things together.
And because they did bond us onan unconscious collective level
Speaker 2 (33:32):
And you know, and, and, and, and all those
different neurotransmitters werereleased, right?
I mean that's, that's what we'reseeing now.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
Yeah.
Release together.
I mean, it's the same thing whenyou go listen to a concert of
music together, you feel at onewith the audience, cuz you're
all in sync experiencing that,you know, pulsating with your
senses are all alive together atthe same time.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
You know, you're making me remember my
grandmother, um, lost a daughterto leukemia when she was 12
years old and she startedknitting in the hospital and she
knitted her whole life.
She be, we, we call it thegranny slipper club.
Ivy has repair.
She, she, she, she knittedslippers, her whole everything.
But, but it was her way ofkeeping her life together.
(34:17):
She kept her life together.
She never dropped a stitchbecause it, it, she couldn't,
you know, and it was her, herlife was f falling apart and she
started to knit it back togetherand she, she did it.
She, she, you know, she lookedat, at 99, so she, she knitted
for over 75 years, which, youknow, and think about that.
And the other point I wanted tomake is that we are in so many
(34:38):
communities all the time.
We're not just in one community.
So even when we say, you know,this book is for the masses,
that could be Alzheimer'spatients, it could be families
that have children with autism,it could be, um, people who are
experiencing mental health.
It could be people that justwanna flourish and grow, but we
come in and out of communitiesin a day all the time, right?
(34:59):
So how do those communities bondand come together in
synchronicity like Ivy's talkingabout, but also in these common
ways of making something orbeholding something together.
And just the awareness of thatlifting up our knowing that
that's happening, being moreaware of our aesthetic mindset
is something that we think makesus all feel more alive.
(35:22):
And that's what I think we'reall wanting too, is to feel more
and to feel more connected toourselves and to each other.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 4 (35:30):
.
Yeah.
Wow.
Um, well, uh, thank you fortaking all the time to make that
book.
Yeah.
But, uh, doing all the researchand yeah, it's amazing.
Um, and thank you for taking thetime today to talk to us about
it.
Um, I'm really excited to readit and I think it's a game
(35:50):
changer.
So, um, you know, I, you know,it it, it o obviously helps us
cause we've been chatting aboutit for a really long time and
it's nice to be able to be like,check this out, you know, for
more, uh, scientific, uh,evidence to the, to the point
that we're trying to make.
So yeah,
Speaker 3 (36:08):
We'll know, we'll always succeed if it becomes a
textbook right for everyone.
Oh.
Oh.
Speaker 4 (36:12):
Wouldn't that be amazing?
Yeah.
Yes.
I would love to take a class onthat.
Like what happens to your art onbrain, you know, in your brain
on art.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:21):
Well also I wanna thank you for all the work that
you two have done.
Cause I heard your story and um,again, just like this was a
labor of love for us.
Um, you know, the fact that youcame together with a knowingness
and that there were other peopleout there you need to connect
with and then have stuck withit.
And, uh, sometime the worldcatches up with you.
So thank you for hanging inthere and doing that work.
(36:44):
It's really important.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
Thank you.
Thank you.
How can people get the book andgive, you know, what's your
website and how can they getahold of you and um, learn more?
Speaker 3 (36:52):
Yeah, sure.
So, um, it is, it launches onMarch 21st.
We're super excited.
Susan and I are gonna be likerock and roll stars going, you
know, a seven city tour in 10days.
Speaking of places like theAspen Institute, the Baltimore
Museum of Art, quite a range of,of institutions and places.
But it launches March 21st, butit is available for pre-order,
(37:13):
you know, Amazon, Barnes andNobles, a lot of, um, indie
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Bookstores.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
In bookstores as well.
Um, our site will be up by theend of next week.
It will be called, you know,your Brain on art.com.
We do have an Instagram feedthat's up now, um, which is
called Your Brain on Art bookbecause your brain on art,
someone took it.
But, um, your brain, your brainstarts
Speaker 1 (37:38):
It back,
Speaker 3 (37:39):
.
Speaker 4 (37:42):
And
Speaker 3 (37:42):
Then on our, on our website there is a form if you
wanna reach out and contact us.
Um, yeah.
And so it's called Your Brain OnArt, how the Arts Transform Us.
And um, it's coming out byRandom House
Speaker 2 (37:56):
And one of the, you realized just we would never be
able to tell all the amazingstories that are out there and
even all the great sciencethat's coming out.
So part of the work that we'redoing with the website and
social media is to lift upprojects just like yours.
So we're really excited and sendus what people are doing cuz we
really wanna hear and we wannasee how people are using the
(38:16):
arts in their lives and so manydifferent ways we think that's
gonna be amazing to share withthe world.
Speaker 3 (38:23):
That's called social science, right?
Susan?
Social
Speaker 4 (38:25):
Science, yes.
Yeah.
Awesome.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (38:29):
You're welcome.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
Take care.
Amazing conversation.
Thank you.
All right.
Welcome to Artist Moving.
This is Lisa Lauren.
So excited about these twoladies here today.
It's Susan and Ivy, and if youcould please introduce yourself
and then we'll start thebeautiful conversation.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Well, thank you for having us.
My name's Susan Maxam, and I'mthe director of the
International Arts and Mind Labat Johns Hopkins University, and
also the co-director of theNeuro Arts Blueprint.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
And, hi, I'm Ivy Ross.
I'm currently the vice presidentof Design for the hardware
products at Google, but I havebeen an am an artist, received
an NEA grant, and, um, I've beeninvolved in art and making my
whole life.
Speaker 4 (00:41):
Oh, that's awesome.
Uh, thanks for being here.
Uh, as everyone knows it'slistening, um, we always start
our conversations off with aquestion.
And the question we have for thetwo of you today is what happens
to your brain on art?
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Well, I, I'm gonna start by saying everything
everywhere, all at once.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
I love it.
Speaker 4 (01:06):
Oh man, what a splendid movie too.
Woo.
I could talk about that one.
You do.
I've watched
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Times and I think I need to watch it.
Another five.
It's just, it's really, it'sreally layered.
Right.
And, and I think that's a reallygreat, um, um, metaphor for your
brain own art.
You know, our brains are socomplicated and so dynamic.
And you know what, Ivy and Ihave found out that, you know,
we're really truly wired forart.
(01:32):
Um, over the last 20 years,advances in technology have
really allowed us to get insideour heads and to really start to
understand kind of what ishappening.
And because the, the, we bringthe world in through our senses,
this capacity for taste andsmell and touch is so
extraordinary.
Um, and those sensorialexperiences really trigger so
(01:55):
many, uh, neurotransmitters andhormones that induce what's
called neuroplasticity.
So, you know, at the basiclevel, neuroplasticity is really
the process of sculptingneuronal connections at a
synaptic level.
So you're born with a hundredbillion neurons.
Each of us have quadrillionsynapse synaptic connections in
(02:16):
our brains, and those synapticconnections create endless
circuits and neuro pathways.
So you think about it this way,everything that you do, your
emotions, your memories, yourphysical movements all come down
to the way that these circuitsconnect and grow.
And what we have seen in theresearch over the last 20 years
is that the arts and aestheticexperiences are exceptional at
(02:40):
creating these amazing synapticconnections that are highly
salient, meaning they matter toyou.
And they really lay thegroundwork for health and
wellbeing and learning andcommunity building and all these
things that we do all the timein our lives.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
And, you know, there's what your brain is
doing.
And then there's also the factthat the arts allow you to
creatively express something.
And we have found that we, it'ssuper important cuz we all have
microtraumas every day.
And unfortunately some peoplehave huge traumas.
But, you know, I think we'vebeen taught to kind of repress
(03:17):
our feelings and not expressourselves.
And by the way, when we say thearts, we are talking about, um,
a wide range of, you know, pavisual arts, making, singing,
dancing, architecture.
Um, it's quite a range, um, ofarts.
But there's a great quote wehave in the book from Julie
Bolty Taylor that says, we thinkthat we're thinking beings that
(03:42):
have learned how to feel, butwe're actually feeling beings
that have learned how to think.
And when you think about that,it turns the whole thing upside
down.
As Susan said, we are wired forart.
We are, we are feeling beingsfirst.
And then our brain developed tothink.
And I just don't think that weunderstand that enough.
Cuz if we did, we wouldunderstand how important it is
(04:04):
to be expressing our feelings.
And I think the arts is such aperfect way to express.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
I love that.
So the curious, how did you bothget into this field?
Um, what was the, you know, amoment in time that you're like,
I really wanna divulge this tothe world that artists, um, for
our wellbeing?
Speaker 2 (04:24):
You know, it's funny in hindsight, I think the, your
rear view mirror, you kind ofcan see where you came from.
Um, and this has been a reallygreat question that people have
asked us, and it's kind of agift to think about.
Um, you know, I've always been avery curious person and I've
always just wanted to understandwhy things were working the way
they were.
(04:45):
And I've also always lovednature, but when I was, I'm a
twin, and when I was 12 yearsold, my twin sister had a very
tragic, uh, farming accident andshe almost lost her leg.
And she and I are like this,we're super close.
And when that happened, um, sheexperienced physical and
psychological trauma that wasbeyond words.
(05:06):
She really couldn't express howshe felt, but she was, um,
really in, in deep emotionalpain.
And she started to draw and shestarted to paint and she was
able to begin to put in visualterms what she couldn't find in
words, and then was able to comeback and ultimately put words to
those images.
Now we understand thatneurologically now, but then,
(05:30):
um, it was just a gateway tosome cognitive and emotional
relief.
And for me, I was able to knowmy sister's deep emotional pain
through what she made so that Ithink, you know, only now can I
really see that that was anotherway of communication that was so
, uh, natural, but really becameanother way for us to
(05:53):
communicate and for me tounderstand that we don't really,
words are the least of what wedo do to communicate and to
express ourselves.
And then for me, in my foursister's crazy household, I'd go
out into the woods to findbalance and peace.
And, and so I'm a, I'm a bignature lover and, and, um, live
on 20 acres on a stream.
And so that's continued to be areal through line for me and a
(06:14):
gardener.
And, you know, I love the smellof dirt and all that.
And so, um, so I think that'show I came into it.
Um, and you know, Ivy's got areally beautiful story too.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
And by the way, before I tell my story, you
know, nature Susan brings upnature.
Nature is the most neuroaesthetic place there is because
it has, if you think about it,um, color, texture, temperature,
sound, um, it has all of thoseelements and we came from that
place.
And so we feel alive when all ofthese senses are ignited.
(06:48):
But, um, my story is my, my, um,parents would get into, into
some arguments and what I woulddo is close my door and I would
start to beat my drum.
I had a little drum and I wouldfind some incredible, um,
(07:10):
relaxation and de-stressed by.
And I realized my heart wasgetting in residence with that
drum beat.
And the, and I would call mylittle brother in when the
fighting was going on and hewould listen to that.
And it turned out he grew up towanna be a musician.
And it's amazing.
So the world of sound, uh,allowed us to kind of block out
(07:31):
some things we didn't wanna hearand really just get in resonance
with the sound.
And I also started making, um,collages at a very early age in
my room because I wanted to putmy own world together, I think.
And using the differentmaterials allowed me to do that.
(07:51):
Uh, and my father was a designerand a creative, but I really
realized when Susan and I threwall of our conversations that my
making and my sensing came from,um, solutions to any, you know,
emotional trauma.
And then it became my professionin terms of being, you know, an
artist.
My work is in 12 museums andit's not about that because you
(08:14):
find out when your ego getssatisfied, it's the journey.
It's not that end goal.
And that was the gift I got from, um, getting my work in museums
is realizing life is not aboutthis holy grail and obtainment
and, you know, the book, it wasreally important for us to
convey that it's not about goodart or bad art speaking, you
(08:39):
know, it really is about thewhat happens when you're in the
act of either making orbeholding.
And I think, yeah,unfortunately, so many people
who have a lot to express andyou could do it just for
yourself, right?
And, and, and that, um, don't doit because I'm not good at it,
you know, concept, it's
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Shameful.
You're shamed into not makingright.
And ultimately that
Speaker 4 (09:03):
Yeah, I, that was gonna be my next question for
you guys.
So we encounter a lot of people.
Cause I think as childrenexpressing yourself through the
arts, whether it be throughdrumming or painting or drawing
or, um, even honestly likescreaming and jumping up and
down, uh, or running around yourbackyard, that I think bec
(09:24):
becomes naturally as you weresuggesting.
Uh, and then there is somethingthat happens in your tween ish
age and it's, I, and I think ithas to do neurologically, right?
You begin to see the world as ajudger and you want to fit into
those social norms.
And then you spend
(09:46):
adult life almost trying to getback to that place where you
were as a kid or, or hopefullyyou do get back to that place
because that's how you work outall the stuff that you haven't
had a chance to work out cuz youdenied it for so long.
So we're kind of on a mission tobe like, how do we stop that gap
in time, uh, from happening, uhmm-hmm.
(10:06):
And I think your book is agreat, great way of doing that,
of, of explaining to people thatlike, here's the evidence and
like, don't let that shame thatyou might feel from some random
art, usually random art teacheror some comment you hear from an
adult in your life, uh, stopyou.
Because it really is not aboutthe product, it's about the
(10:28):
process and it's about theexperience.
You know?
Um, is there, you know, what doyou think?
Like what could we do asindividuals?
What could we do as a society,uh, as parents, as teachers, as
you know?
Speaker 3 (10:41):
Yeah.
Well you're, you're, you'reabsolutely right.
And Sir Ken Robinson did thisexperiment.
We went to schools and inkindergarten who's an artist and
everyone hand go up and thenfirst grade, half the hands,
second grade, hardly any.
And by third grade, all thehands were down.
And that's really because ofwhat you said, judgment.
You know, a teacher comes aroundand says, oh no, that's not the
way you draw a tree.
(11:02):
Right?
And, um, all of a sudden thatstops that, you know, because
of, of the, the judging.
And, and it's critical that weget the judgment out and some of
these arts, you know, back intoschools.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Well, and this incentive systems are not set up
for creativity yet.
Interestingly, that's what crethat's what businesses are
looking for, right?
Is innovation.
So you see all these art formsbeing taken out of school.
Um, yet at the other end of the,the, the lifespan, which what
you're theoretically trainingpeople for, you're asking'em to
(11:37):
have the skills that you're nottraining them for.
So the tension of oppositesthere doesn't make any sense.
But, but also I think you'retalking about, um, middle school
, um, it's even younger thanthat, right?
It's really, it's really anelementary school where we start
to feel like, oh, we have tolike fill out the little bubbles
on the test and we have to situp straight, we have to conform
to what's, what's going on.
(11:58):
And there's a lot of stuffaround identity and
collaboration and community thatgets lost too.
So our ability to do this, to beable to understand how each of
us are communicating, expressingourselves also gets lost.
Which that's another thingthat's really hard to make up
later on.
Um, and then with kids withneurodiversity, you know, we
(12:20):
know that kids learn bestthrough making, through
multi-sensory experiences, andthey get taken out of the
schools also.
So that really makes a hugedifference in, um, the capacity
to be able to learn and grow andchange.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
And the why, why, I mean, we kinda all know, but can
you explain from the book thewhy why did this happen in our
society?
You know, at some point it, itwas integrated in our society
and then it just got,
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Yeah.
You know, we interviewed someindigenous tribes and, and in
those times there was no wordfor art because it was the
culture.
It was storytelling, singing,dancing, drawing it.
You didn't need a word for itbecause it was life and then
that's it.
Yeah.
And then I think, you know,industrial revolution, we, we
(13:09):
started optimizing forproductivity and we pushed all
the arts aside and thinking thatwould make us a happy and
healthy society, and we're not.
And so, right.
Um, you know, we're, we're, whatwe wanna look at is, um, you
know, sometimes you have to go alittle backwards and the answer
is there, you know, like we saidis, Susan and I looked into
(13:31):
this.
We were wired, we we're designedfor the arts.
And so we've, we've, you know,got to bring it, um, back in, in
a healthy diet.
Just like we exercise, we nowknow science has got drilled in
our head.
We have to exercise 20 minutes aday, we have to sleep eight
hours.
And, um, we need to do some formof art 20 minutes a day.
You know, whether it's themaking or engaging in, if we're
(13:54):
gonna live longer and happier
Speaker 2 (13:56):
And we've left so much on the table, right.
You know, if you're not bringingall of that capa human capacity
forward, you know, your questionabout why one other aspect of
that is in the seventies whenthe Russians, um, came out with
Sputnik, that is when STEM wasborn, it was, uh, we can't play
anymore.
(14:16):
We can't mess around anymore.
If we're gonna keep up in theglobal race, it's all business,
right?
And so I think for a lot of theright reasons, we made the wrong
decisions.
And so we went off course andnow we're so off course and, you
know, in California Proposition28 is now bringing some of the
arts back into school, and it'snot bringing them back in for
(14:36):
enrichment or, you know, becauseit's sort of a high thing,
highest society thing to do.
Or even because you might becomean artist when you grow up.
It's more so from a social andemotional, uh, connection and
for helping to, withself-regulation and for
executive function and all thosethings that we're wired for
that, what the arts teach us,even if we aren't quote unquote
(14:59):
good at it.
So, um, and Ivy mentioned beinga maker, there's also great
benefit in being a beholder, um,and being able to listen to
music and view art and, and usevirtual reality and, and go to
theater and, you know, seethings happening in, in nature.
So beholding is the other sideof making, it's the other, it's
(15:20):
the other side of the cointhat's worth lifting up to.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
Yeah.
In fact, doctors prescribing in,in Canada and London, England
for patients to go to museumsliterally writing a prescription
because, you know, for our brainto make these new connections,
as Susan said, we need to be,uh, confronted with new things,
see new things, um, and we tendto get comfortable and not do
(15:43):
that.
Speaker 4 (15:44):
Yeah.
I I think that's a actually areally good point.
Okay.
So I wanna say one thing interms of like schooling and how
we enter art and schooling, andwe tend to enter it from a space
of lessons, right?
Just because of classroommanagement and like proving to
your particular state, at leastin the United States, that
(16:05):
you're fulfilling the 2.1 ecthing that they're telling you
to do.
And, um, I'm sort of on amission.
I have, uh, two elementaryschool kids and a preschool
child, and I'm trying to getpeople to understand that my
notion of taking an art break.
And so I'm, I'm trying to findthe right language and you, you
hit on it, Susan.
(16:25):
It's this idea of like, thatit's, you can, you can be
involved in art and so manydifferent ways mm-hmm.
that movie.
And that is an art experience.
You know, you can listen to asong and try to try to piece out
how many different instrumentsare in that song.
(16:46):
You can scribble on a piece ofpaper and then color it.
And that is art.
And I guess I wish there wasmore of that in the school
system.
And I think I don't, I don'tknow.
Is it because it's feelscattywampus?
Does it feel unorganized?
Um, do we need to introduce itin an organized way?
Um, you know,
Speaker 2 (17:06):
God, I hope not.
Um, you know, I think, I thinkwe've, yeah, we, you know, I
used to, I, I started a companycalled Curiosity Kits, which
were hands-on learning materialsfor kids in art sciences and
world cultures.
And we used to call them glitterand non glitter moms.
Y the non glitter moms werelike, you know, you know, no, no
glitter moms were like, let'sget messy.
Let's get in this.
And those kids were joyful,happy, learned more, um, were
(17:30):
really sort of engaged becauseit was okay to be messy.
And I think sometimes somehowwe've homogenized learning also,
like it has to becompartmentalized.
And you know, you just mentionedsome really great things,
scribbling.
I think this is where thescience is really our friend,
our, the science is telling usscribbling and doodling and
coloring are about focus,attention lowering cortisol.
(17:54):
Turns out that doodler havebetter memory recall than non
doodler.
That's pretty cool.
So, you know, we know a lot moreabout why these, um, experiences
that we call art actually aregood for us neurobiologically
psychologically and from abehavioral change point of view.
And so to be able to start touse those in service of
(18:15):
learning, in service ofwellbeing, and give teachers
back the joy of teaching, thejoy of, uh, exchange.
Like, you know, I teach atHopkins and, and there's nothing
worse than standing in front ofa group of people who are
totally disengaged.
It's the loneliest experienceever.
But when you put'em in a circleand you ask'em who they are and
what they do, and you say, helpme understand this, it's
(18:38):
beautiful.
And, and everybody leavesfeeling seen, engaged, and has
taken something away.
So, you know, I thinkeverything, everything is an art
right?
In in the sense of, you know,how do you come at teaching,
teach the art of teaching, um,you know, the art of, of, of
engagement.
And so I think we have to reallyreimagine what school looks like
(18:59):
and not, you know, for yearsit's been, the arts have been
around the outside of school asopposed to being right in the
middle of it and making itmessy.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Yeah.
I have a, so I'm, this book isfor the masses to really
understand that art should bepart of our lives.
It's not was it is life, art islife.
So if you guys could break downfrom the book, what you learned
is there's making sensing andbeholding, like, if you could
give us some examples of that toopen the door for people that
(19:32):
kind of don't know what you'retalking about.
You know, cause Lauren and I,through our heartbreak mission,
kind of like, you know, youcould walk in nature and that's
amazing.
Like you said, nature is likethe epic greatest artist in the
world.
So if you could open the door towhat is making, what is that,
what is beholding, um, to ouraudience that kind of doesn't
understand
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Well, would, would it be helpful maybe to maybe to
step back and just explain toyou how the book is organized?
Yes.
Um, cause I, cause what, earlyon we had a couple choices to
make.
We, we could make the bookaround art forms.
So here's music, here'sperforming arts, digital arts,
dance.
Um, or we could do it around themoments in our lives where we
(20:16):
need different things to help usfeel whole and happy and
healthy.
And that's how we organize thebook.
So there's a book on wellbeing,there's a book on mental health,
there's a book, there's a,sorry, there's a chapter on
mental health.
There's a chapter on physicalhealth chapter on learning
flourishing, which is living,doing more than just coping and
that community and then the artsof the future.
(20:38):
What does it look like when thistechnology starts to really
create hybrid experiences?
So we, I've used a beautifulterm yesterday that we wove
together all the different artsas a maker, end of beholder, end
a sensor to be able to, um, meetthose moments in our lives where
those things, um, show up andcan be very helpful for us.
(21:00):
So I'll just give you oneexample and then give it to Ivy.
In the trauma and, and mentalhealth chapter, we talk to, uh,
first responders who are usingthe arts to address P T S D and
trauma because they're firstresponders and they're, they're
experiencing these incrediblesituations and they need to
defrag, they need to get thisstuff in them out.
(21:21):
So some of them are painting,other people are using visual
arts.
And I you tell about Judy, cuzthis is a beautiful story.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
Oh, someone we know that we interviewed, um, was
actually, she wasn't even apainter, she was an English
major and she had had sometrauma in her lineage.
And she realized, um, becauseshe was starting to date, uh,
Hopi Indian.
(21:50):
And she said to her Hopi Indianfriend, you know, in the old
days you guys used to, and Ithink he wanted to learn how to
paint.
And she said, well just start topaint and then wash over it with
white, just like they did in thecaves.
Like no connection to what youput out, like no attachment.
And you'll be amazed, you know,with the no judgment, just put
(22:12):
it out.
And then they used to cover overit and then they would tell
another story and then tellanother story.
And so we have a picture of thisin the book in the Centerfold.
Um, she ended up saying, wait aminute, I'm gonna do that for
myself.
And she ended up doing somethingcalled the continuous painting
where she would literally, andthey're absolutely beautiful and
thank God she photographedbefore she painted over it, just
(22:35):
for her own documentation totell her own story back to
herself, these images.
But she would put it on thecanvas and then she'd paint over
white and then the next dayshe'd do something else and then
like a figure would start toemerge and um, then she'd paint
over it and then something elall like her, her own life story
(22:56):
and trauma would start to comeout in this very abstract way.
And it was incredibly healingfor her.
So at the end of the day, sheended up with what she calls,
there's a white, the whitecontinuous painting, the red and
the black.
Cuz in each of them she ended upwith it's all black or all white
or all red, cuz that's the colorshe used in between.
But you walk up to that paintingand all it is now is very thick,
(23:21):
gooey cuz there's layers of herstory, you know, of 40 different
paintings underneath.
And you could feel the energyjust coming off of that pure
white canvas because that is theway that she brought out her
story and reflected it back toherself.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
And she's the mayor.
We're the beholder and there's asensorial experience through the
whole thing.
So it all gets woven together.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (23:44):
Yeah.
I love that.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
What, um, what would you say tosomeone, like what could be a
first step for someone who nowis like, you know what, I
totally believe you.
Um, I need to integrate art intomy life.
It is part of who I am and I, Iknow it'll be better for me, but
I'm, I'm a little afraid whatcould be a first?
(24:08):
Cause there's a lot of feararound art, right?
So what could be a first stepfor someone to take?
Speaker 2 (24:16):
So I, should I go on?
Speaker 3 (24:18):
There's a lot, but go ahead.
Pick up
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Well, so I always say that I'mthe poster child for this field
because I can't dance, can'tsing, can't write, can't dance.
But I do it all the time, right?
And so, you know, humm in theshower, sing to the radio.
You mentioned doodle cooking isa great thing.
Gardening.
Um, I'm a knitter.
Um, but I knit one stitch and Imake, you know, a a million mile
(24:43):
long scarf, right?
Um, and I, I, I love to collageIvy.
Ivy was talking about how youcreate your own world by putting
these things together.
And you know, that's not, youdon't have to be, it's not high
art, right?
Um, there's a lot of those kindsof things that you can do really
easily and instantly, and theyhave an immediate effect on you.
(25:04):
That's the other thing.
Um, it's not like you have towait for it to, to feel it
dance, dance in your livingroom.
Um, you know, or did,
Speaker 3 (25:11):
Didn't we find out there was an adult coloring
book?
You know, if you're scared to gooutside the line, like get a
coloring book and start to color, um, you know, that, that would
be terrific.
And we also found out inwriting, you know, because
writing is also an art.
Um, but you could do somethingas simple as writing down a
secret that you haven't toldanyone.
(25:33):
The research shows that just bywriting it, and it doesn't
matter whether you throw it awayafter you write it or burn it,
the fact that you've actuallybrought it out, um, and put it
on a piece of paper changes howyour brain, you know, thinks
about that secret
Speaker 2 (25:49):
And you lighten your cognitive load instantly.
So you know, you're, and thatmakes sense, right?
You're lighten your load and Ilove that term.
And so lightening your cognitiveload means you have more
capacity for other things.
It's not waiting you down,
Speaker 4 (26:03):
Right?
You're like not turning andturning and turning that thing
anymore.
Or like
Speaker 1 (26:07):
I say, baggage, right?
So what I'm hearing is emotionshave baggage, and if you don't
release them, get'em out intothe world, that's when you kinda
implode on
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Yourself,
It can make you physically sicktoo, right?
So the emotional physicalconnection is so important in
some of this work as well.
It's a way to keep, keep youhealthy.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Yeah.
And we've learned that, you know, with neuroplasticity, as you
have these new salentexperiences, your brain prunes
away some of those oldconnections.
So that's why over time you canget an entirely newly wired
brain.
You know, they, um, and so someof these, these old connections
that maybe kept you stuck incertain ways, if they get pruned
(26:50):
out, you know, you're adifferent person, but you have
to have these new experiences,which means, you know, putting
yourself in new experiences,whether it's looking at new
things as the beholder, or makeor the maker trying, making
something good or bad.
Um, these meaningful, theseexperiences will make new
connections.
And ultimately your brain willhave to prune the old, because
(27:11):
there won't be enough room.
Which is why we say if you do iteach day for 20 minutes, you're
making new connections.
And eventually the the old oneswill have to, you know, go away.
And if the old ones are salient,meaning truly emotionally
memorable in a positive way, youknow, they will stay with you.
But, um, the brain prunes thosekind of has this hierarchy.
Right, Susan?
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Yeah.
And, and even with somethinglike dementia or Alzheimer's,
you know, you, you, everybodyknows that when you sing to
someone with Alzheimer's, oftenthey'll come back and you're,
it's extraordinary.
I I always say it's the closestthing to magic.
Well, the hippocampus is thepart of the brain that
short-term where short-termmemories are held, and as
they're consolidated, theyconsolidate into other parts of
(27:54):
the cerebral cortex.
So what's amazing aboutsomething like music for
longevity is the brain willdisseminate or distribute that
information in different partsof the cortex.
So when you're singing, you're,you're not pulling from the
hippocampus.
The hippocampus is destroyedbecause of Alzheimer's or
dementia, but it's other partsof the brain that have
(28:14):
duplicated and stored thisknowledge.
And that's what's we're, we'recalling on in these kinds of
singing experiences orautobiographical information.
And so the brain has thiscomplexity that it, especially
with the arts, where you're ableto, um, pull on information that
might have been lost in one partof the brain, but is now being
(28:35):
stored in not just one, butmultiple parts of the brain.
And I think that's, that's sortof extraordinary.
That's
Speaker 1 (28:40):
Extraordinary.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
Yeah.
In fact, through Susan and Ilearned that my husband and I
should exchange our favoriteplaylist of our favorite songs.
So God forbid we go into any ofthese states, you know, to have
our loved one play that playlistwill get us out of love.
That
Speaker 4 (28:57):
I think that's an incredible idea.
And so, I mean, it's, that'svery endearing.
I like that.
I like that idea.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
One question that come up for me.
You were talking aboutcommunity.
We really haven't hit on thecommunity.
How, what is this?
Does it, is that, um, thecollective unconscious or what
is the community aspect of thispart of the book?
Speaker 2 (29:16):
Well, we were very fortunate to talk with Ieo
Wilson, the evolutionarybiologist, before he passed
away.
And, and he opens up thecommunity chapter talking about
the way that we are, um, what hecalls used social.
So there's only five or sixspecies on the planet that we
know of that are used social.
These are one of them, answeranother.
(29:37):
Humans are another.
What it means is that we arebuilt to take care of one
another, not to be, um, selfishor individualistic, even though
it might seem like sometimesthat's true.
In fact, that's how we're wired.
So all of these different artsand ex ways of expressing
ourselves or thinking aboutstorytelling around the
(29:59):
campfire, around dancing, uh,cave paintings that are messages
to each other are all about oursurvival as a species, not about
our individual survival.
So, you know, Ivy mentioned this, that there wasn't a word for
art because communities lived inthat life of making and doing
and creating and beholdingbecause that's how the culture
(30:22):
stayed strong rituals,traditions are all about culture
and also generationally movingthat information forward.
So when you think about, um, youknow, bring that to today, how
can community be fostered andbuilt?
And how can communities thathave been decimated through
racism and throughunder-resourced communities, how
(30:43):
can they come back?
And it's really through art.
Uh, we talk about this in thebook that art creates culture.
Culture creates community, andcommunity creates humanity.
So we, we talked, we lifted up a, uh, a group, uh, in, in
Chicago called the SweetwaterFoundation.
And Emmanuel Pratt is the personthat sort of initiated that work
(31:04):
where he, um, bought someacreage, burnt out acreage in,
on the south side of Chicago,and with the community
co-created first communitygardens, and then a place for
coming together and eatingtogether.
And it turns out scientificallythat when you eat together, when
youve together, you're lesscombative, you're less
judgmental, and you're morelikely to get along, which I
(31:26):
think is pretty extraordinary.
Um, so, you know, shout out forthe family dinner table.
But, but also, but also thatthey then built a, a performance
pavilion where people cometogether all different ages,
intergenerationally, to shareknowledge to, to learn from each
other.
So co-learning, peer learning,then they build a wood shop and
(31:46):
a workshop where they make art,they make furniture, they do all
kinds of things together.
Now they're building housing.
And so this is a communitythat's not getting a lot of
federal or state money, but arebuilding a community together.
And they've now connected withother communities around the
world that are learning fromeach other about how to
co-create community and buildstrong community in some of the
(32:08):
worst, um, areas that have beenreally redlined and cut off and
isolated, um, by design and arenow coming back and, and
thriving.
And it's, it's really beautifulwork.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
And you think about, you know, and, and women who
would have quilting beestogether mm-hmm.
there's a lot of, um, stress incolleges and especially with
young women and they're creatingknitting circles.
They're just getting togetherand starting to knit together,
together.
And there's something about thataction of, it's almost, you're
(32:42):
very present.
I think, you know, when you haveto make things, you have to be
present.
So you're sitting in a circleand you're each knitting your
own thing, but you're present tothe moment and talking.
And, um, we also learned,actually, you know, I think it
was David Byrne who was talkingabout dancing and you think
about square dancing in the townhall and in the old days, you
(33:03):
know, there was, the communitywould come together and dance
together.
And there's something about whenyou get in step together, it, it
bonds people.
And so a lot of things that we,you know, we take for granted
and they just were the waythings were.
Um, uh, there's, there's sciencein why we haven't articulated,
(33:24):
but why we were drawn to bedoing those things together.
And because they did bond us onan unconscious collective level
Speaker 2 (33:32):
And you know, and, and, and, and all those
different neurotransmitters werereleased, right?
I mean that's, that's what we'reseeing now.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
Yeah.
Release together.
I mean, it's the same thing whenyou go listen to a concert of
music together, you feel at onewith the audience, cuz you're
all in sync experiencing that,you know, pulsating with your
senses are all alive together atthe same time.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
You know, you're making me remember my
grandmother, um, lost a daughterto leukemia when she was 12
years old and she startedknitting in the hospital and she
knitted her whole life.
She be, we, we call it thegranny slipper club.
Ivy has repair.
She, she, she, she knittedslippers, her whole everything.
But, but it was her way ofkeeping her life together.
(34:17):
She kept her life together.
She never dropped a stitchbecause it, it, she couldn't,
you know, and it was her, herlife was f falling apart and she
started to knit it back togetherand she, she did it.
She, she, you know, she lookedat, at 99, so she, she knitted
for over 75 years, which, youknow, and think about that.
And the other point I wanted tomake is that we are in so many
(34:38):
communities all the time.
We're not just in one community.
So even when we say, you know,this book is for the masses,
that could be Alzheimer'spatients, it could be families
that have children with autism,it could be, um, people who are
experiencing mental health.
It could be people that justwanna flourish and grow, but we
come in and out of communitiesin a day all the time, right?
(34:59):
So how do those communities bondand come together in
synchronicity like Ivy's talkingabout, but also in these common
ways of making something orbeholding something together.
And just the awareness of thatlifting up our knowing that
that's happening, being moreaware of our aesthetic mindset
is something that we think makesus all feel more alive.
(35:22):
And that's what I think we'reall wanting too, is to feel more
and to feel more connected toourselves and to each other.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 4 (35:30):
Yeah.
Wow.
Um, well, uh, thank you fortaking all the time to make that
book
Yeah.
But, uh, doing all the researchand yeah, it's amazing.
Um, and thank you for taking thetime today to talk to us about
it.
Um, I'm really excited to readit and I think it's a game
(35:50):
changer.
So, um, you know, I, you know,it it, it o obviously helps us
cause we've been chatting aboutit for a really long time and
it's nice to be able to be like,check this out, you know, for
more, uh, scientific, uh,evidence to the, to the point
that we're trying to make.
So yeah,
Speaker 3 (36:08):
We'll know, we'll always succeed if it becomes a
textbook right for everyone.
Oh.
Oh.
Speaker 4 (36:12):
Wouldn't that be amazing?
Yeah.
Yes.
I would love to take a class onthat.
Like what happens to your art onbrain, you know, in your brain
on art.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:21):
Well also I wanna thank you for all the work that
you two have done.
Cause I heard your story and um,again, just like this was a
labor of love for us.
Um, you know, the fact that youcame together with a knowingness
and that there were other peopleout there you need to connect
with and then have stuck withit.
And, uh, sometime the worldcatches up with you.
So thank you for hanging inthere and doing that work.
(36:44):
It's really important.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
Thank you.
Thank you.
How can people get the book andgive, you know, what's your
website and how can they getahold of you and um, learn more?
Speaker 3 (36:52):
Yeah, sure.
So, um, it is, it launches onMarch 21st.
We're super excited.
Susan and I are gonna be likerock and roll stars going, you
know, a seven city tour in 10days.
Speaking of places like theAspen Institute, the Baltimore
Museum of Art, quite a range of,of institutions and places.
But it launches March 21st, butit is available for pre-order,
(37:13):
you know, Amazon, Barnes andNobles, a lot of, um, indie
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Bookstores.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
In bookstores as well.
Um, our site will be up by theend of next week.
It will be called, you know,your Brain on art.com.
We do have an Instagram feedthat's up now, um, which is
called Your Brain on Art bookbecause your brain on art,
someone took it.
But, um, your brain, your brainstarts
Speaker 1 (37:38):
It back,
Speaker 3 (37:39):
Speaker 4 (37:42):
And
Speaker 3 (37:42):
Then on our, on our website there is a form if you
wanna reach out and contact us.
Um, yeah.
And so it's called Your Brain OnArt, how the Arts Transform Us.
And um, it's coming out byRandom House
Speaker 2 (37:56):
And one of the, you realized just we would never be
able to tell all the amazingstories that are out there and
even all the great sciencethat's coming out.
So part of the work that we'redoing with the website and
social media is to lift upprojects just like yours.
So we're really excited and sendus what people are doing cuz we
really wanna hear and we wannasee how people are using the
(38:16):
arts in their lives and so manydifferent ways we think that's
gonna be amazing to share withthe world.
Speaker 3 (38:23):
That's called social science, right?
Susan?
Social
Speaker 4 (38:25):
Science
Yeah.
Awesome.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (38:29):
You're welcome.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
Take care.
Amazing conversation.
Thank you.
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