Community Association Insights with Industry Leader Dawn Bauman of the Community Associations Institute (CAI)

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Learn the secrets to help your community thrive on this week’s Take It To The Board podcast, as host Donna DiMaggio Berger sits down with Dawn Bauman, Senior Vice President of Government and Public Affairs at the Community Associations Institute (CAI). Dawn is a leading advocate for HOAs, condos, and co-ops across the U.S. and internationally. With nearly 50 public policy initiatives under her leadership—including fair housing, pets, assistance animals, and removing racially restrictive covenants—Dawn has been at the forefront of policy development for community associations.

In this episode, Dawn shares her vast expertise with Donna as they dive into the 2025 legislative priorities, including building safety, financial challenges, property rights, environmental sustainability and diversity issues focusing mainly on trailblazing states like Florida and California. Dawn discusses the critical data CAI has gathered on the community association lifestyle and the various resources and initiatives she oversees. They also explore the essential role of developers and realtors in educating potential buyers about community association responsibilities. Emphasizing the power of grassroots advocacy, this episode highlights CAI's efforts to influence public policy and make it more accessible to its members.

Lastly, learn about CAI's recent lawsuit to exempt community associations from the impact of the Corporate Transparency Act (CTA) and what that might mean for your board before the Jan. 1, 2025 deadline.  Don’t miss this in-depth discussion on the future of community association governance!

Conversation Highlights Include:

• CAI’s top legislative priorities this year and how they could impact community associations across the country
• How board members and residents can get involved in supporting legislative efforts
• How trends in the areas of governance, technology, and homeowner engagement might shape the future of community living
• The most significant challenges facing community associations today and how CAI is addressing these issues
• Promoting diversity, equity, and inclusion within community associations
• Best practices and critical differences in how community associations operate internationally compared to the U.S.
• New CAI educational resources for board members, managers, and homeowners

BONUS:  Learn how to join the fight to exempt community associations from the burdens imposed by the Corporate Transparency Act (CTA)

 
Related Links:

• Podcast: A Board Members' Guide to Unexpected Issues - Your Questions Answered
• Podcast: The Do's and Don'ts of Association Committees with Becker’s Ken Direktor
• Podcast: Boot Camp for Board Members: Army Vet, PCAM and Becker Shareholder, Howard Perl, Discusses the Benefits of Rigorous Board Member Education
• Resource: Community Associations Institute (CAI) Website

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hi everyone, I'm Attorney Donna DiMaggio-Berger
and this is Take it to the Board, where we speak condo and HOA
From the boardroom to thelegislature.
Our guest today has her fingeron the pulse of the critical
issues facing all types ofcommunity associations.
As the Senior Vice President ofGovernment and Public Affairs

(00:22):
at the Community AssociationsInstitute, or CAI, dawn Bauman
is the voice of advocacy andeducation for HOAs, condos and
co-ops throughout the US and inother parts of the globe.
Dawn and her team have producednearly 50 public policy
initiatives, including policieson fair housing, pets and
assistance animals and theremoval of racially restrictive

(00:43):
covenants.
She works directly with CAI's36 state legislative action
committees and the College ofCommunity Association lawyers,
ccal.
I'm a proud member to furtherCAI's mission.
So today we are going to do adeep dive into the issues that
Dawn thinks are most importantto help communities not just

(01:04):
survive but thrive.
So with that, dawn, welcome toTake it to the Board.

Speaker 2 (01:08):
Hi Donna, Thank you so much.
What a pleasure to be here.
Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1 (01:12):
Well, we're honored to have you here.
We know you're a very busy ladyand there is a lot going on in
association land, throughout thecountry and, frankly,
throughout the globe.
I'm going to ask you about yourglobal outreach later, but can
you start us off by giving usjust basically an overview of
what CAI does for the communityassociation industry?

Speaker 2 (01:32):
Absolutely so.
Cai Community AssociationsInstitute is a membership-based
organization for people livingand working in community
associations, and our North Staris basically to do everything
we can to create the best formof housing available, which is

(01:53):
community associations, as youmentioned condominiums,
homeowners associations, housingcooperatives.
We have education initiatives,best practices, standards of
practice, education curriculum,roadmap for professionalism for
community association managers,trends, contemporary topics,
research, as well as advocacyfor community associations.

Speaker 1 (02:17):
So that's a lot.
So let me ask you first.
I want to find out what led youonto this path into community
associations.

Speaker 2 (02:25):
You know, like any good young professional in the
late 90s, I answered an ad inthe newspaper, so I started
actually as the chapterexecutive director for the
Arizona chapter of CommunityAssociations Institutes 27 years
ago and just worked my wayaround.

(02:45):
I was also executive vicepresident of the Washington
Metro chapter our largestchapter and then moved over to
our national office and haveheld a number of different jobs
at the national office,including my current role.
Are you based in DC?
I'm in Alexandria, virginia.
Our offices are in theWashington DC metro area.

Speaker 1 (03:05):
Yes, oh, that's a great area.
That's a great area of thecountry to be located in.
It is, it is, it is.
I'm in steamy South Floridaright now.
I got away for a little bit but, yeah, I love that area, I love
the metro area and I loveAlexandria as well, so you're a
lucky lady.

Speaker 2 (03:22):
Yes, I am.
It's a great place to be.

Speaker 1 (03:28):
As I said in the intro, you have a passion for
this.
It really does shine through inwhat you do, so I want to talk
to you about your toplegislative priorities this year
.
Yes, Excellent.

Speaker 2 (03:35):
Listen, I do have a passion, and most people who are
involved in this industry, justlike yourself.
We have a passion for justcreating an industry, creating a
form of housing where it's thebest it can be, where people are
happy, where property valuesare the best that they can be.
People are happy living withtheir neighbors and in their

(03:56):
communities, and so, to addresssome of those issues, we work
with the local, state andfederal legislatures on public
policy that makes sense forcommunity associations.
And what I anticipate in 2025on the state level and this is
across the states, not justFlorida I know you have a lot of

(04:17):
Florida listeners, but Floridaleads the way.
Florida and California.
I know that's like a dichotomy.
In many ways, however, floridaand California really lead the
way for legislation in this areaof housing.
But what I anticipate in 2025,more states addressing reserve

(04:43):
funding reserve.
So transparency issues,authority and obligation issues.
From a board member standpoint,I also expect to continue to
see property rights type issues,whether it's rentals or
environmental sustainability,but still property rights

(05:04):
electric vehicle chargingstations, solar panels, things
like that.
Those are the top trends that Ianticipate in 2025.
Listen, we track more than 2000bills a year In 2025, every
single state will be in session.
That doesn't happen every year,like, for example, 2024, four

(05:24):
states were not in session, butin 2025, all states are in
session, no holds barred.
We're going to have 2000 billsthat we're tracking and working
with all of our volunteers to dothe best we can for our members
.

Speaker 1 (05:36):
Yeah, that's a lot of work.
You said Florida and Californialead the way.
Is that because of the numberof association bills you see
coming out of those legislaturesand is that tied to the
significant population Dawnliving in shared ownership
housing communities?

Speaker 2 (05:52):
Yes, for those who can't see me, because I know you
hear my voice, I'm nodding likecrazy.
So Florida and California thetop two states with number of
community associations, the toptwo states with percentage of
community associations, the toptwo states with percentage of
people in those states living incommunity associations 40 to
50% in both of those states.

(06:12):
Well then, what happens?
Right, when you have a lot ofcommunity associations, you have
a lot of people living incommunity associations, you have
more laws.
Typically, now, in a state likeFlorida, because it is a more
conservative state from apolitical standpoint, you would
tend to think you would see lesslaws.
Nope, nope, not in Florida.

(06:33):
We are unique, yes, you areunique.
You, being Florida, are unique,but you are too Donna and so
there are lots and lots of laws,interestingly in Florida.
Florida does this differentlythan most states in that you
have the condo, hoa, housing,co-op all three and things

(06:54):
really run together one forcondo, one for HOAs.
It's often that we're seeingthose starting to come together
instead of really like the threepillars in Florida just are not
breaking down.
And in California there's onelaw.

(07:15):
It's the Davis-Sterling Act.
It's for common interestdevelopments, which is the term
in California that encompassesall community associations,
condos, co-ops and HOAs.
So that's just one law.
It's more efficient, but alsoit digs deeper into detail, just
like Florida does on some ofthese issues that other states
just don't have the type ofdetail.

(07:37):
And when I'm talking aboutdetail, I'm talking about voting
specifics, election specifics,transparency specifics, website
requirements.
Those are things that we onlysee in states like Florida and
California.

Speaker 1 (07:52):
Yeah, we drilled down in Florida even to the
percentage needed to approve amaterial alteration, right?
Do you think there's going tobe a trend on towards
consolidating the sharedownership statutes, like you
said, the UCOIA, the UniformCommon Interest Ownership
Statutes?
I mean, florida has alwaystaken the position that these
are unique housing types.
They've overlooked co-ops.

(08:13):
I don't know co-ops for betteror for worse, they've been
pretty much bypassed for years.
Now it's starting to get alittle closer between 718 and
719.
But there's always been thefeeling in Florida that
homeowners associations, they'rejust a different type of
community and the expectationsin terms of the laws should be
different.
Do you think that's going tochange?

(08:33):
I imagine there's a few otherstates that kind of take the
Florida approach as well interms of differentiation.

Speaker 2 (08:41):
They do.
And I think what we'll alwayssee is we'll always see the
differentiator for condominiumsbecause of, oftentimes, the
building, there's co-ownershipin the building itself.
The proximity, well, just Imean the structure, yeah,
there's co-ownership in thatstructure and with homeowners

(09:03):
associations, single familyhomes you don't always have that
, of course, townhomes gardenstyle nuance, there are some
nuances there, but you'll alwayshave that condominium specific
law, I think.
But then when it goes to boardauthority and when it goes to
transparency and what communityassociations can and cannot do

(09:25):
on homes and the part of thehome that's owned just by the
owner and doesn't have anyco-ownership, I think that's
going to continue to be lockedtogether and just that building
facility piece will continue tobe separate.
I think If you have a sharedroof or if you have a roof
that's just owned by thatcondominium building, solar is a

(09:49):
much different conversationthan a single one.

Speaker 1 (09:52):
Agreed, agreed.
You must be happy that Floridaonly has a part-time legislature
.
Is that true for California too?

Speaker 2 (10:00):
It is true, california is part-time-ish.
They go for a longer period oftime and they take a break
throughout the year.
So it is part-time, but theylegislatures in the US have
sessions that last 120 days orless.
That's very typical.

(10:33):
The year-long legislatures orthose legislative sessions that
last nine months or more, it'sjust rare.
So January through May arecrazy months for legislative
sessions.

Speaker 1 (10:46):
You know what they say the more time in government,
the bigger the problems, but Idon't know whether or not that's
borne out by the data.
So we talked a little bit aboutwhat you think the issues are
going to be going forward, and Iagree with you.
What do you say to the hatersout there who just hate HOAs?
They love to see HOAs justabolished.

(11:09):
I mean, this comes up.
You know we're in our thirdseason here on Take it to the
Board.
We've had all number ofdifferent experts in the
industry join us.
One thing that does come upoccasionally is that there are
people that literally hate theshared ownership lifestyle.
You know my response had alwaysbeen then don't purchase in the
shared ownership community.

(11:29):
But the pushback to that isthere's fewer and fewer homes,
certainly in condo units youcan't get one outside of a condo
building but homes being builtoutside the scope, outside the
framework of a mandatoryassociation.
What do you say to people whojust don't like living in these
communities?
They don't like thesecommunities and they don't think

(11:49):
they should exist so.

Speaker 2 (11:52):
I disagree.
You know I never apologize forthe community association
housing model.
I do believe it is amazing, anddata and statistics continue to
tell us and inform us thatpeople are happy living in their
community associations.
I'm also executive director ofCAI's Foundation for Community
Association Research, and everyother year we commission Zogby

(12:17):
International, a polling company, to conduct a survey for us to
reach out to people who we don'tknow it's their own list to ask
them how happy they are livingin their community association,
and more than 80% of peopleliving in community associations
rate their association asbetter than neutral, so they are

(12:38):
either satisfied or verysatisfied living in their
community association.
There's only 11 or 12% of thoseliving in community
associations that don't liketheir community association,
which means there are haters,right?
So if that's 11%, let's justeven call it 10%.

(13:00):
There are 74 million peopleliving in community associations
.
10% of that is 7 million, so alot of people who might not be
happy.
But I will tell you oursatisfaction rate is so much
higher than almost any otherprofession out there and almost
anything else you could look atout there, including Congress,

(13:20):
of course, Right.

Speaker 1 (13:22):
Oh, that's a point, that's a fair point, but what's
the alternative?
Let me, before I ask you that.
I will's a point, that's a fairpoint, but what's the
alternative?
Let me, before I ask you that Iwill tell you.
I live in a homeownersassociation.
I love it and I think our boarddoes a great job.
We have a very community-mindedfocus here.
Neighbors know neighbors.
I think the board strikes theright balance between enforcing
the documents and not beingheavy-handed.

(13:45):
I think they look at problemson a case by case basis.
I don't think they're overlyrigid.
I also don't think that they'repushovers.
So I think this particular HOAdoes a great job.
I lived in a condominiumassociation prior to this, when
I was first out of law school.
That one had a few morechallenges, but I think I kind
of knew what I was getting intowhen I was buying into a

(14:08):
mandatory association and I'mpretty much, having gone to law
school like you, a rule followerto a certain extent.
I think a lot of this isunrealistic expectations or I'm
moving into a community.
I haven't really educatedmyself about what this means,
what this entails.
What do the documents allow meto do?

(14:28):
What do they not allow me to do?
And I think that's maybe wherethe tension arises.
What do you think?

Speaker 2 (14:35):
Yes, I agree with that.
So, interestingly, I think thatit has to do with the time in
which community associationshave existed in the marketplace.
So, for example, in New Yorksome of the oldest buildings,
condominiums, housingcooperatives in the US right,

(14:56):
the homeowner satisfaction ratein New York is higher than the
national average and I amconvinced that's because people
have had more of anunderstanding of living in
community associations for alonger period of time, so
they're just used to it and theyjust like it.
What we see in New York and Iknow that we're going to talk

(15:20):
about this a little bit later,but one of the interesting
lessons I've learned fromtalking with people in other
parts of the world is when youhave older buildings and a
community association housingmodel that's been around for a
longer period of time oftenownership passed from family,

(15:40):
from generation to generation.
Staying within the family youhave a greater sense of
satisfaction and understandingof roles and obligations, and I
think that goes two ways rightsand responsibilities, roles and
obligations of the owners andthe board members.
So when you have board membersof new communities or new in the

(16:01):
marketplace and their rolefollows, they're just trying to
do their best job.
They might not be as reasonableas people who have been around
a bit longer, because they knowwhere you can have more
reasonability and where you haveto be more rigid.
And I think, as that evolves,we're going to continue.

(16:21):
In my opinion, I'm a totaloptimist in the community
association housing model.
I think we're going to seecontinued satisfaction in this
area of the housing model Wellalong those lines.

Speaker 1 (16:33):
Do you think developers and realtors could
also play a significant role ingetting people off on the right
foot when they're buying inthese communities?
A lot of times developerrealtor they're focused on the
amenities and the view and whatthe unit looks like or the home
looks like.
What about also selling thelifestyle?
What role could they play?

Speaker 2 (16:53):
Absolutely Selling the lifestyle and also informing
about roles andresponsibilities and obligations
.
I often make the parallel ofthe lead paint disclosure and
the community associationdisclosure.
So the lead paint disclosurethe real estate agent selling a

(17:18):
home that has lead paint has totalk to that owner about that
lead paint.
They have to sign, I believe,and the owner has to sign that
they have read through thisdisclosure together.
I would love to see that forreal estate agents in the
community association housingmodel.
What do you know that there's acommunity association here?

(17:39):
What does that mean to you?
Let's look at the finances.
Let's look at the rules.
Oh wait, you have a dog.
Just so you know, you have tohave your dog on a less than six
foot leash when you're walkingin this area of the building,
because some people are afraidof dogs.
Are you okay with that?
Having those conversationssigning off on it, making sure

(18:00):
that everybody understands?
I think that the world would bea better place if we had those
types of requirements.

Speaker 1 (18:05):
I couldn't agree more .
In Florida there are condoriders, there's HOA riders.
I'm sure this is true in otherstates as well, but I think
they're glossed over.
Again, they're a rider and Idon't think they're a main
discussion point outside thefinancing and the purchase price
and all the rest of it.
So yeah, I do believe thatdevelopers and realtors can play

(18:28):
a role in really discussingwhat this lifestyle means,
particularly for people who maybe coming from other countries
or even other states, who'venever lived in a mandatory
community association before.
So who knows?

Speaker 2 (18:40):
I will say so in our homeowner satisfaction survey.
Again, these are not CAImembers that we're asking
questions of.
These are people, just typicalold Americans living in the US.
So one of the questions that weask, or a set of the questions
that we ask, is related to didyour real estate agent tell you

(19:00):
that you were buying into acommunity association, yes or no
?
Tell you that you were buyinginto a community association,
yes or no, and did that make adifference in your decision?
And both of those questions arepositive for community
associations.
I was super proud of the realestate agents because it's
something like 70% advised theirclients that they're living in
a community association.
Great, Exactly, Well, I'd liketo see 100%, but that was a

(19:24):
higher percentage than Ianticipated.
And the second question well,how that impacts your behavior
and it was again about twothirds said it either didn't
impact or it had a positiveimpact.
It made me want to buy in thatcommunity association.
A small percentage said, ah,that made me decide they didn't
want to.
So I realized that what yousaid earlier, which is, listen,

(19:46):
there are other options ofhousing, so you can always
choose your style of housingthat works best for you, Maybe
in some cases some localitiesare only allowing building in
community associations, sothat's not going to be as easy.
But you can select thecommunity that you're buying
into and you can get to know theboard.

(20:07):
You can get to know yourneighbors.
You can ask those questionsbefore you move in.

Speaker 1 (20:10):
And I want to talk to you in a few minutes about the
housing choices that some of ourolder Floridians are going to
be facing in the near futurebecause of all the new laws in
Florida relating to engineeringinspections and mandatory
reserve funding.
But I wanted to talk to youfirst about your grassroots
advocacy.
So, CAI runs a lot of campaigns.

(20:31):
Just kind of walk us throughwhat a typical grassroots
campaign would look like for CAIand how you engage people
living in these associations toget involved with those
campaigns.

Speaker 2 (20:42):
Sure, absolutely, and thanks for asking that because
it's really the power.
If you will and I use air quotesfor those of you because you
can't see me the power thatcommunity associations have are
the number that we have as anorganization, is the number of
people living in communityassociations 74 million in the
US Voters and people who live incommunity associations, who

(21:05):
spend their money in localeconomies and in the national
economy.
So, to get engaged withgrassroots campaigns when we
have a open, grassroots campaign, which is typically an email, a
phone call or a meetingcampaign with your legislator
and it could be local, state orfederal we send out emails or we

(21:29):
have webinars or we communicatewith our members saying, hey,
this policy issue is beingconsidered, at whatever level of
government it is, and we thinkit's going to be important to
you because it impacts the wayyou live in your community.
So we give information about theissue, why we think it's

(21:49):
important to communityassociations and give then
owners, boards, managers,professionals, the opportunity
to contact their legislator andshare how this potential law
will impact them personallythose stories.
We do a lot of lobbying andadvocacy work and we do a lot of

(22:11):
research on how to be effectivethe number one way to be
effective in influencing apublic policy is to have
constituents share informationwith legislators about how it
impacts them personally, andwhat we want is what's best for
the community associationhousing model.

(22:31):
That's why you mentionedearlier, we have more than 50
public policies on differenttopics for the community
association housing model and wemake it really easy, so we give
people the exact instructionson what they could do to help
have their voice be heard,whether it's again a phone call,
an email, a meeting, a visit,town hall meeting, follow

(22:54):
someone on Facebook, taggingsomeone on Facebook, going to a
meeting in a district or stateor federal office All of those
ways can have a profound impacton some of these laws that are
being considered by members ofthe legislature.

Speaker 1 (23:09):
Well, you took the words right out of my mouth
which I was going to say.
I imagine you have to make iteasy for them because people are
busy, they're living theirlives.
There's a reason we call thesilent majority the silent
majority, because a lot of themthey just don't even have time
to lift their heads up from workor family matters to engage.
So phone calls, I guess, aregreat.

(23:30):
Do you set up, like phone banks, 800 numbers that they can use
you?

Speaker 2 (23:34):
can give phone numbers or we have some
functionality with web-basedphone calls.
That make it really easy.
If you click on an email, wehave different options and can
you help them craft, because alot of times they get lost in
the make it really easy, if youclick on an email, that we have
different, different optionsthat and can you help them craft
, because a lot of times theyget lost in the crafting of the
emails.

Speaker 1 (23:51):
I've seen this myself where I mean do you help them
kind of frame the argument?
I guess chat gpt could do thisnow too, right oh?

Speaker 2 (23:58):
yeah, and we should probably use that a bit more
than we are, but we actuallydraft some template language for
people to read, understand andthen use pieces of it whatever
makes sense to them when they'reemailing or sending a letter or
even creating a script fromthemselves to talk with a

(24:19):
legislator.
We have 46,000 members almost47,000 members throughout the US
and in some other countries aswell and we have almost 100,000
advocates in our advocacy system.
So we have people who go beyondour membership, who are just
engaged because this is superimportant to them.

(24:39):
So you don't have to be amember to be an advocate and,
again, it's one of the best waysfor us to impact public policy.

Speaker 1 (24:48):
Well, I will tell you , it is rare for me to say to
somebody, when they're asking mefor resources to reach out to
CAI or the Community AssociationInstitute, for that person not
to know about the organizationI'm referring to.
But occasionally, occasionally,somebody will be CIA, cai, what
, how do you, in terms of, youknow, trying to reach out and

(25:10):
grow your ranks?
You know what are the differentavenues you use.

Speaker 2 (25:15):
Well, listen, we have a ton of resources for people
who are living in communityassociations, considering buying
in community associations or onthe board committees, et cetera
.
So we push those and a lot ofour resources are free.
We push those resources outusing Google AdWords, using

(25:38):
LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, sothat we can push out as much as
possible standards of practice,best practices, resources to
help community associations runas the best that they can
possibly run.
So we use as many channels aswe possibly can.
We also work with our ownmembers, our community

(26:00):
association lawyers, our CCALfellows, our PCAMs and CMCAs and
AMS credentialed managers, andurge them to share these
resources with their clients aswell.

Speaker 1 (26:12):
Listen, every time I go to one of the law seminars
that you put on, I am walkingaway with a half dozen books,
because I just happen to be abook worm.
I have more books in my housethan just about anything else,
but you do have great resources.
So at the end, I want to makesure you give us some links so
people know where to find you,where to find those resources.
I want to talk to you aboutchallenges.

(26:36):
I mentioned Florida, butthere's challenges across the
country that associations arefacing.
What do you think, Dawn, arethe most significant challenges
right now facing people livingin condos, co-ops and HOAs?

Speaker 2 (26:49):
So I'll start with the challenge of just financial
security for that communityassociation and safety, and when
I'm talking about safety, I'mtalking about condominium safety
, building safety and not justbecause of the tragedy that
happened in Florida in 2021, butit's brought to light that so

(27:12):
many community associationslikely don't have the reserve
funds that they need to addressissues that will need to be
handled in the coming years, andI talk about this all the time.
I'm not saying that buildingsare unsafe.

(27:32):
I'm not saying that maintenanceis not being done, but what we
know.
We've done some research on theage of buildings in the US and
when these buildings were built.
So two-thirds of the buildingsin the US the residential
buildings, so condominiums,townhomes in the US are going to

(27:55):
be 40 years old or older twothirds of them and we know that
during the time that a lot ofthose buildings were built the
70s and 80s there were buildingcodes that are no longer
acceptable practice today.

(28:15):
So that doesn't mean that thebuildings are going to fall down
, but what it does mean is theseare not the buildings in Europe
that you see that are nevergoing to have a problem, because
they are built with the mostamazing concrete that you've
ever seen before, right.

Speaker 1 (28:34):
And you see, they're not the Coliseum, right, they're
not.
And let me just stop you therereally quickly.

Speaker 2 (28:37):
You don't need a whole building to fall down to
have aum Right, they're not theColiseum and let me just stop
you there really quickly.

Speaker 1 (28:40):
You don't need a whole building to fall down to
have a tragedy.
Okay, you can have one balconyfall off or a chunk of concrete
in a parking garage fall onsomebody and kill them.
So we also need to redefinewhat a tragedy is as well.

Speaker 2 (28:54):
I mean, a building collapse is the worst tragedy
but there are personal tragediesthat happen all the time needed

(29:15):
and the instruction that theyneeded to make sure that
maintenance and reserves werefunded properly.
We just didn't do a good job ofthat and unfortunately, it took
a tragedy for us to realizethat we have got to change laws
to give boards the authority tocollect money and pay for

(29:41):
critical repairs in theirbuilding and maintenance in
their building not criticalmaintenance, preventative
maintenance in the building.
Because if you don't have apreventative maintenance program
and you're not undergoing ornot constantly feeding that
preventative maintenance program, guess what?
You're either going to have atragedy or, by the time you're

(30:02):
able to do the maintenance thatneeds to be done, it's going to
cost you 30% more than it wouldhave if you just paid for it
when it was preventativemaintenance.
So those are lessons that we'velearned as an organization and
that's why we are so focused onchanging those laws to give the

(30:22):
boards the authority that theyneed.
Now.
Does that cause challenges forpeople and boards living in
associations?
From a financial standpoint, itabsolutely does.
We haven't done a good job atclearly letting people know how
much it costs to live in acondominium building or in a

(30:46):
shared ownership building,setting townhome, et cetera,
because it's not just your condofee and your mortgage and your
taxes, it's also thosemaintenance fees and saving for
repairs that need to happen.
So, but I think what'simportant is passing those laws,
but including enough time,enough resources, so that it

(31:10):
doesn't create a financialcrisis for people living in the
association so they have to selland they have to leave, or or
where property values start todecline because that
association's not able to dowhat they need to do, and we
have quite the perfect storm,and I actually am not intending
that pun.
We have quite the perfect stormwith insurance and the crazy

(31:35):
insurance premiums, as well ascondominium maintenance,
especially in Florida.
We have this demand onfinancial requirements by owners
, which is very challenging.
I would like to see thelegislature give more space and
room to fund those reserves,because we cannot create a

(31:58):
situation where the condominiumbuilding can't get the insurance
that they need, can't get amortgage, because Fannie Mae and
Freddie Mac aren't going togive a mortgage in a building
that doesn't have the rightinsurance, the right insurance
Again, air quotes because,fannie and Freddie, they don't
even know what the rightinsurance is and they don't even
realize and understand how thisinsurance is impossible to get

(32:20):
and to have to fund thosereserves, there needs to be some
space.
I don't think we're ever goingto have a program where we're
going to get people to givemoney to condominium buildings
so they can fund all of this.
That's not going to happen, butwe might get some grant programs
out there for condominiumbuildings that are in
opportunity zones, which meansthat people are living in

(32:43):
paycheck to paycheck, maybe theyare retired, living on a fixed
income.
So I think we are working onsome solutions from a funding
standpoint there Again, not freemoney typically, but money that
can help and we're working witha lot of banks to see how we
can put some money into thesebuildings.

(33:04):
And I think we're going to belooking at some case studies on
how to be creative aboutdetermining the next steps for
this building.
And I'm not saying sell it andsell it to a developer and tear
it down and everybody is lefthomeless.
I'm saying I think there aresome creative solutions out
there that are going to take alot of professionals, a lot of

(33:27):
conversations, but I think thatmay be.
I think those conversations in2025 are going to be really
important.

Speaker 1 (33:34):
And along those lines , I think it may actually take
some time to see some of theseeds that have already been
planted take root.
For instance, the Floridalegislature has passed insurance
provisions, insurance changes,over the last couple of years.
Those were mostly aimed at tortreform.
They said it was going to bringdown premiums, bring more
private insurers into the market.

(33:55):
We'll see.
We haven't seen it yet.
In terms of free money, there'sbeen a little bit of free money
.
Miami-dade passed an ordinance.
They were giving grants out,but I think the $30 million went
in three weeks.
I mean, it's a drop in theocean.
It's the same thing with the mySafe Florida Condominium pilot
program that RepresentativeLopez passed this last year.

(34:15):
Same thing.
It's a start, but it's notenough.
I did want to go back because Iagree with everything you said.
I was also nodding my head.
We're capturing the audio herebut in some cases, Dawn, we had
buildings that did have healthyreserves.
It was a question of priorities.
So we saw associations spendingtime, effort and money on

(34:40):
aesthetic projects.
Everybody loves the landscaping, Everybody loves the lobby.
Redo.
They like to redo the railings,Everything.
You see, the pretty stuff, theother stuff, the structural
stuff, it's not as of muchinterest because you don't see
it immediately, and if we couldreally work as an industry to

(35:00):
try to shift those priorities tolet them know.
You know the basics dinnerbefore dessert type of thing,
right, but we've had too muchdessert before the dinner and
then when it gets time for thedinner there's really no.
People are fatigued.
They've already had specialassessments for the improvement
projects and now they're lookingat significant assessments for

(35:21):
the stuff they don't see really,the concrete restoration, the
plumbing, the electrical, thingslike that.
Do you think we can work ontrying to shift priorities here?

Speaker 2 (35:33):
Absolutely, absolutely, and you said it
right we need to work together.
Everybody like.
We work with you guys, we workwith the engineers, we work with
the architects, we work withthe reserve study professionals,
we work with the localmunicipalities so people working
together to find some of thesesolutions.
We participated in a task force, a county task force, in

(35:59):
Delaware, in one of the countiesin Delaware, and we passed
building inspection legislationusing this task force.
We talked about insuranceissues, we talked about a
variety of issues and we alsoparticipated in a task force
with 20 plus differentprofessionals related to our
industry in Virginia, justworking together and having

(36:20):
these conversations.
We can't do it CAI.
We can't do it.
We can't do it ourselves.
We're amazing and we have someamazing resources, but it's
bigger than us.
We can lead the way in havingthese conversations, but
engaging others in theseconversations is critical to

(36:41):
success.
I believe and I think you'reright Changing the conversation
to dinner, before dessert.
I think that is going tocontinue to evolve.
I'm seeing it in differentplaces or across the country.
I'm seeing the conversationconnect with more people.
I think we're going to seeevolution of board members as

(37:03):
well in what their role andresponsibility is and the
support that they get from thestatute.

Speaker 1 (37:12):
Yeah, I'm already seeing it, and it may be as a
result of, for instance,florida's very stringent new
laws that impose even criminalliabilities, for instance,
florida's very stringent newlaws that impose even criminal
liabilities, criminal penaltiesI should say on board members
who don't understand and in factbreach their fiduciary duty.
But I almost think we need likea psychologist to go into some
of these.
You know, when businesses arefailing or dysfunctional,

(37:33):
sometimes they reach out to abusiness psychologist.
Often it's boards who just feelthat they can't impose these
kind of increased assessments.
But you have to pass a budgetthat meets your operating
expenses.
In Florida and other states youhave to pass budgets that have
reserve funding.
So you know again, maybe weshould be doing the Myers-Briggs

(37:56):
test for board members to makesure that you're up to the task
of doing what you have to do,even if it means you're not
going to be the most popularperson.

Speaker 2 (38:11):
Well, I think it's about that as well, and a
different, less emotional way ofgoverning these boards, because
the statute is going to bethere, so it'll be more business
directed than emotionallydirected, in my opinion.

(38:32):
I just think we're going to bemore of a corporate board
setting than a.
This is my home setting.
I think that's what we're goingto see in the next 10 years.

Speaker 1 (38:50):
And I hope that all this mandatory board education
also assists with that shift.
Just what you're saying,because now in Florida we've got
robust educational requirements.
Is that true?
I know you monitor this acrossthe country.
Is that true for a lot ofstates Dawn that they're
requiring board members toundertake pretty rigid
educational courses?

Speaker 2 (39:10):
Our best practice and our standard of practice is
board members should be educated, and we have a tremendous
number of resources available toeducate board members, just
initially on what their role andresponsibility is, and then on
nuanced and specific issuesreserves, finances, meetings, et
cetera.
But there are only a couple ofjurisdictions that require

(39:34):
mandatory board member training.
But again, a best practice forus is to encourage everyone to
have the training that they need, not just a four-hour course,
but on a regular basis on all ofthe issues that face community
associations.

Speaker 1 (39:51):
Yeah, I was going to ask your personal philosophy on
that because I would imaginelisten, a lot of board members.
They get on the board andnobody onboards them.
It's not like going into a jobwhere somebody sits you down and
teaches you.
You know what your job is andhere's how you do it and here
are the tools at your disposaland a lot of these communities.
You get on the board.
Nobody tells you what the jobis Nobody's really, especially

(40:14):
if it's been.
You're getting on the boardbecause the entire prior board
has left.
Now you're really learning onthe job, aren't you?

Speaker 2 (40:21):
Yes, well, so here's where I think we have
vulnerability, and that is 30%to 40% of community associations
in the US are managed only bytheir board, so they don't have
professional management.
So if you have a board that iselected and there's professional
management, oftentimes thatmanagement company will do some

(40:42):
board training and willcertainly give some guidance and
information, same as theinsurance and the legal
professionals.
The attorneys will do that aswell and of course, we have that
training as well.
But it's that 30 to 40% wherethey're elected to their board
and they don't have theresources.
They maybe don't know about CAI, they maybe don't know that

(41:06):
they should have a law firm.
They would benefit from havinga law firm.
They don't really know how to dothe job.
They don't even know the lawsthat exist.
That's where we as an industryhave the vulnerability and it's
one of the reasons that we pushso much of our kind of marketing
of our free resources push outthere, hoping that someone's
going to do a Google search andsay I'm a new board member, what

(41:28):
do I need to know?
And hopefully some of our freeresources will pop up and they
can read through them, they cantake some courses and they can
educate themselves so that weall live happily ever after.

Speaker 1 (41:41):
So, with your membership, what percentage are
boards, associations, and canyou tell me about the different
type of vendor members you haveat CAI?

Speaker 2 (41:50):
Sure, so I'll start high level first.
We have three main areas ofmembership Our boards of
community associations, managers, management companies.
The second group and then thethird group are business
partners, professionals, serviceproviders and the board members
, the boards of our communityassociation.

(42:11):
That's about 40% of ourmembership.
Another 30% of our membershipincludes the managers and
management companies, so that'smaybe even 35%.
So that's about 70% to 75% ofour membership.
The last 25% to 30% are ourbusiness partners and business
partners.

(42:32):
How we categorize them?
That includes everybody servingthe industry Could be a
developer, an attorney, anaccountant, an insurance
professional, a disasterrecovery company, painter,
plumber, landscape company, poolcompany, bank, et cetera.
So all of those are businesspartners.

(42:53):
We are so fortunate as anorganization and as an industry
to have the most amazing givingprofessionals in the world.
Let's just look at ourlegislative action committees.
Let's look at our legislativeaction committees and our
chapters.
Between our legislative actioncommittees and chapters we have
thousands of volunteers and Iwould guess that 20% of those

(43:20):
volunteers are communityassociation lawyers who are
ready and willing to give theirtime, their expertise, to help
write the law that's going to bebest for people living in
community associations, to helpeducate people, so that we're
creating a housing model thatworks and creates great

(43:41):
communities.
We have really amazing givingselfless volunteers that give a
lot of their time, and I thinkthat's sometimes then when I
hear oh, you're run by lawyers.
No, it just so happens thatthey're not billing, they are
giving their time and giving upa lot of their billable hours to

(44:02):
just make the communityassociation housing model better
.

Speaker 1 (44:06):
I mean frankly, dawn, it helps us, it helps our
clients, it helps you if thelaws are written with a little
more clarity.
Dare I say so, yeah, that'snever a bad thing.
Could a rank and file unitowner join CAI, or do you have
to be a board member?

Speaker 2 (44:23):
No rank and file homeowner can join CAI and we do
have rank and file homeownersjoining CAI and we actually are
looking at creating some otheropportunities for membership for
the homeowners themselves.
But we do have a lot ofresources again free resources
just for homeowners.

Speaker 1 (44:44):
I think that's important because, again, we're
talking about being informed,making an informed decision.
So for the person living therethinking maybe I wanna be on my
board, maybe I don't, I thinkit's a great idea to get
involved with CAI and yourresources and really do a deeper
dive into what it means.

Speaker 2 (45:00):
And what questions should I ask before I buy into a
community association?
What should I look for in mygoverning documents?
What should I expect of myboard?
What's my role andresponsibility?
What is my obligation in payingassessments or voting and
things like that?

Speaker 1 (45:16):
We even had to legislate that in Florida Dawn
in terms of what should I, whatshould I know before I buy?
Now it's mandatory that you betold what's the?
What's the structural integrityof the building?
Are there reserves?
You know it's.
So we have had to,unfortunately, legislate some
things that you would have hopedwould have been common sense

(45:36):
and in in in our functioningtransparent communities, they've
been doing these things allalong.
But for the rest of foreverybody else, sometimes you
need a little help.
How do you navigate those?
Since you do have a diversemembership, how do you navigate
when an issue comes up, let'ssay a big issue, where one
segment of your membership mayfeel a certain way towards that

(45:58):
issue and another segment feelsdifferently?

Speaker 2 (46:01):
That's a great question and you would think
that that comes up all the time,but it doesn't.
It's fascinating.
So, with our public policies,our North Star for the
organization is to createcommunity associations that are
preferred places to call home,that are governed, managed,

(46:24):
amazing communities.
So that's where we go when weare looking at policy positions.
And I'm going to use an example.
Let's say there's a piece oflegislation completely
hypothetical.
Well, actually it's not, it'sreal.
There's a piece of legislationthat says this is hypothetical
Landscape companies must provideindividual homeowners with a

(46:51):
statement of the amount of moneythat they are paying
individually for landscaping intheir community.
Let's just say that's a pieceof legislation that has to
happen, and I could seedifferent opinions about that
legislation.

Speaker 1 (47:04):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (47:05):
And the community association or its managing
agents can only charge a dollarfor providing that notice to
homeowners.
So we would look at that andsay, okay, we always take it

(47:45):
back to the communityassociation and if there's a
conflict and somebody it's notgoing to work for the community
association, then it goes to thecommunity association.
So let's say, communityassociation lawyers,
associations every associationhas to hire a community
association lawyer.

(48:05):
Well, that might be good forcommunity associations but it
might not be good for all ofthem.
There might be an associationwith two units and they don't
need a lawyer.
They have a lawyer on the board, so they really don't have to
hire somebody.
And let's assume that's acommunity association lawyer,
not a divorce lawyer who's onthe board.
So it would be maybe good forlawyers but not good for the

(48:29):
association.
So we're going to go back tothe association and make sure
that our frame of reference iswhat's good for that association
.
And, donna, I know that it seemslike it might not be possible,
but 99% of the time what's goodfor the association is good for
everyone else in the industry,including management companies,

(48:52):
including the landscapers,including the pool companies.
It's almost always right Ifsomebody comes to us and says
hey, there is a lead pipeplumbing issue that needs to be
addressed because there are abunch of condominium
associations in Michigan withthis lead pipe issue and we're a

(49:14):
plumbing company and we thinkyou should support this
legislation.
We're going to look at itreally hard and see if it is a
priority.
While we don't want there to beissues with lead in water in
community associations, is thatgoing to be an issue that rises
to the top level of priority andimpact a lot of community

(49:35):
associations?
I'm not sure we would look atit, but it always goes back to
what's best for the communityassociation Not the homeowner,
not the board member, not theattorney, not the manager what's
best at community association.

Speaker 1 (49:47):
You just took the words out of my mouth.
Because, let's be clear, whenyou keep referring to community
association, you're referring tothe community, not the board of
directors.
Again, but you're not referringto a hundred percent of the
people, because the majority themajority.
It's kind of.
It's kind of what we're dealingwith, and a lot of times it's a
super majority.
A lot of times you've got justabout everybody on the same page

(50:10):
, with just a few people whodon't.
Sometimes it's not that close,but I get that.
We get that pushback as well,dawn, when we go to meetings.
Well, who do you represent?
The association or the board?
Of course, we represent theassociation, but as lawyers and
we're also looking at it withinthe same framework of what's
going to work best.
Obviously, what does this boardhave to do to fulfill its duties

(50:33):
under the documents and thepertinent statutes?
But we get that pushback too.
Are you our attorney?
Well, we're not your individualattorney, but we are
representing the corporateentity.
Of course, like any corporateentity, somebody has to be
giving you directions.
As lawyers, we do takedirection from the board in

(50:53):
terms of work requests.
It's a really delicate danceand it's getting more
complicated all the time as thestakes get higher, and by that I
mean both in terms of theissues you've already addressed,
dawn, with aging buildings, thenew laws that are coming out,
crises in the form of exorbitantinsurance premiums it's getting

(51:14):
a lot more complicated acrossthe board.

Speaker 2 (51:17):
I agree.
I agree.
I really think we're going tosee these boards transition,
like I said, in the next 10years into boards that are
compliance-driven corporateboards, where it's just a bit
different setting, and I thinkthat that will help also manage

(51:40):
expectations from owners as well.

Speaker 1 (51:43):
So let's talk about the Dreaded Corporate
Transparency Act, or CTA,because I know CAI is all over
that new law, which was designedto thwart money laundering in
small to mid-sized corporations.
I don't know that associationsshould have been caught up in
that net, but tell us what CAIis doing with regard to CTA.

(52:08):
I should say at the outset thatit's a law that has a deadline
that's coming up soon, and itrequires directors serving on
these association boards todisclose certain private,
confidential information aboutthemselves to FinCEN.

Speaker 2 (52:24):
That's right.
So, yes, this is a law, the lawpassed, as you said, the
compliance for communities thatexisted before January 1st of
2024, compliance is required byJanuary 1st 2025.
And we have a lot ofinformation on our website.
We have a guidance guide, aguidance document and lots of

(52:45):
information about our advocacyand legal efforts challenging
this law.
So, right now, where we are, Iwant to be super clear.
I'm not sure when this is goingto air we might need to change
this if something happens, butthis law is in effect, it
impacts community associations.
If your community associationis incorporated, even some that

(53:08):
are unincorporated, I think youmust comply with this
requirement, unless you have $5million or more in assets or in
annual income and 20 employeesthat are your direct employees
or you're a 501c4 IRS tax exemptorganization.
Otherwise, you're going to berequired to comply.

(53:30):
Let's be clear about that, butwe're trying to change that.
So we're taking two routes.
One is our advocacy route, andwe have been talking with
members of Congress, talkingwith the Department of Treasury,
which has oversight of thisprogram, trying to get community
associations exempt from this,because this is a law that is

(53:53):
for small businesses, trying tofind companies that are money
laundering for terroristactivity.
This is not something.
There's no proof, there are noexamples of community
associations being used formoney laundering for terrorist
activity.
So we believe the impact ofthis requirement on community
associations is much greaterthan any benefits that we'll

(54:18):
have from community associationshaving to comply with filing
this information, this personalinformation, into a government
database.
So the advocacy efforts whichwe are pursuing trying to exempt
community association there's abill out there right now that
would exempt communityassociations from this law Are
you optimistic about that bill,Dawn?

Speaker 1 (54:39):
No, I am.
But the bill, this law, hasbeen challenged in two different
jurisdictions.
But here's the thing, becauseI've been asked about that it's
only the plaintiffs in thoselawsuits that are now stayed
from having to comply.
Everybody else does and, yes,this episode may.
It will not be released for afew weeks, so if something
changes, we will have avoiceover and we'll thank CAI if

(55:03):
they got this done.
But it almost makes me think.
Like, do our publicpolicymakers forget that condos
and HOAs exist and that they are?
Yes, they're not-for-profitcorporations for the most part.
There's an occasionalfor-profit co-op, but for the
most part they're not-for-profitcorporations, but they're only
operating and administering aprivate residential community.
Do they just forget about these?

Speaker 2 (55:25):
entities.
Yes, they forgot about theseentities.
I really believe they forgotabout these entities, and so, by
the way, there are six lawsuitsin different jurisdictions.

Speaker 1 (55:35):
Oh no, there's six OK .

Speaker 2 (55:37):
Another one was filed in Utah.
So we have Michigan, utah,alabama, I think it was
Pennsylvania too, pennsylvania,and so we are also filing a
lawsuit.
We are filing a lawsuitspecifically for community
associations, challengingcommunity associations, this
application to communityassociations, and I expect that

(56:00):
we're going to have our lawsuitfiled before the end of the
summer, before fall.
So we are hoping to have we'refiling for preliminary
injunctive relief.
Is that right?
Did I say that right?
Yeah, you said that right.
Wait, wait, oh, I thought youwere a lawyer.
I'm not a lawyer.

Speaker 1 (56:22):
You imitate one really well, I thought you were.
But yes, you said thatcorrectly.

Speaker 2 (56:28):
So we're filing our complaints, which includes a
preliminary injunction, becausewe want to try to get this
stopped before it goes into therequirements.
The deadline hits, which isJanuary 1st.
Now we're also advocating foran exemption through FinCEN and

(56:49):
through Congress.
Now that's really threedifferent prongs.
The Congress piece I'm not surethat's going to pass.
Listen, what has passed thisyear?
Right, not a lot's passing inCongress.
All we really have left thisyear before the election is
going to be appropriations bills, and it's a possibility, but I

(57:11):
don't think this is going to gointo the appropriation bills.
So I'm not hopeful.
It's not a no, but I'm nothopeful.
An exemption through FinCEN wehave filed an exemption request.
We've had numerousconversations with FinCEN.
I know that they areconsidering our exemption
request, but the wheels moveslowly and bureaucracy moves

(57:33):
slowly.
So if a request were to happenor if an exemption were to
happen through the Department ofTreasury, I don't see that
happening before the deadlineeither.

Speaker 1 (57:50):
It's possible and just not hopeful.
This is one area where I don'tthink grassroots advocacy is
going to get it done.
I think it's going to get donein the courts.
That's just my gut instinct.

Speaker 2 (57:55):
So, and then you mentioned the plaintiffs in the
other cases are the ones thathave benefited from the court
ruling.
So the Alabama case which cameout earlier this year, national
Small Business Associationversus the Department of
Treasury it turns out theDepartment of Treasury
interpreted that ruling to applyto all the members of the

(58:18):
National Small BusinessAssociation.
So we are encouraging people tojoin CAI because our lawsuit is
possible, that it would applyto community association members
.
If we get a favorable ruling,it would apply to community
association members of CAI.
It's not guaranteed and we'renot trying to create a situation

(58:39):
where it's a bait and switch,but it is a possibility.

Speaker 1 (58:43):
So we are actually we'll have some special
membership pricing as well, well, that is a very interesting
possibility, and at the end ofthe episode you'll let folks
know where they can go to getmore information about
membership.

Speaker 2 (58:55):
I absolutely will, but I will tell you right now
because the CorporateTransparency Act information
about it changes daily.
You can go to our website atcaionlineorg forward slash CTA.
So I go to that website because, again, it changes daily.

Speaker 1 (59:14):
Yeah Well, when you got a big thing like this, I
don't know why.
It was never fun to serve onthe board in the first place,
but they're making it less andless appealing, Dawn.

Speaker 2 (59:25):
Absolutely.
It's pretty listen $10,000,$500 a day in fines.
If you, let's say, you file andthen you file all of your
information, all your passportinformation, all your driver's
license information, and thenyou get a new passport Within 30
days, you have to go updateyour filing with that new
passport and if you don't youcould have penalties of $500 a

(59:48):
day up to $10,000 in time injail.

Speaker 1 (59:51):
Okay, this is.
This is bleak.
You're going to have to fixthis, Don.
You'll come back and you'll letus know, and if you do fix it,
we'll we'll definitely throw youa parade.

Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
It's not me.
We have an amazing team and ouradvocates.
We have 90,000 advocates thepeople who are reaching out to
their members of Congress.
It's been very helpful.

Speaker 1 (01:00:12):
Before I let you go, because you have been so
generous with your time, I wantto talk about one other
initiative that you've beenpursuing lately, which is your
diversity, equity and inclusionwithin community associations.
And I can tell you you know, Istarted in this industry.
My son was in diapers, he's nowa New York City attorney and I

(01:00:33):
have seen board compositionschange over the last three
decades, but it's changingslowly and again, it greatly
depends on where you aregeographically located.
But can you tell me a littlebit about your DEI initiative
through CAI.

Speaker 2 (01:00:50):
Yes, thank you so much for asking about that.
It is such an importantinitiative, and so I've seen
some different studies on thedemographics of homeowners
associations and I do believethere are a greater percentage
in homeowners associationsoverall in the US, a greater

(01:01:10):
percentage of whites living incommunity associations than any
other race In condominiums.
That's different.
We don't have exact data onthis, but there have been some
studies that I've seen on thisparticular issue and what's

(01:01:31):
important is that when we lookat diversity, when our boards
look at diversity, when peoplelook at diversity, their look
and inclusivity they're lookingat leadership in the
organization.
They're looking at the way theydo business, the way they treat
people, the way they talk topeople and creating equity in

(01:01:54):
the community for everybody, orwriting letters and enforcing
rules and collecting assessmentsand delinquent assessments that
everybody's treated the same.
It doesn't matter what yourreligion is, it doesn't matter
what your race is, it doesn'tmatter what your sexual

(01:02:16):
orientation is, it doesn'tmatter your gender identity.
Everyone should be treatedequally.
I think we all know that and weall believe that right.
But when you start looking atthen taking it the next step so
that you create a more welcomingleadership environment on the

(01:02:39):
board for diversity and againwe're talking about diversity
across the board religion, race,sexual orientation so that
people can see themselves on theboard, so that people can see
their group on the board andfeel welcome and feel like their

(01:03:00):
voice matters.
I'll tell you, feel welcome andfeel like their voice matters.
I'll tell you.
So we have a great guide outthere.
It's a diversity, it's adiverse and inclusive
communities guide and itincludes a commitment to
diversity in community.
It's a really wonderful guideand I'll tell you that what
we've done some research tocollect data.

(01:03:24):
When people receive a violationletter and they respond because
they feel like they're beingdiscriminated against, if a
oftentimes that's not the caseSometimes it is, but oftentimes
it's not If that board can turnto their diversity pledge and

(01:03:49):
say we pledge to make sure thatwe are treating everybody fairly
and equitably and back it upwith statistics, it takes that
away from the conversation sothat there can be more
meaningful conversations aboutequity and inclusion.
So I also am very passionateabout women in the workplace and

(01:04:12):
the gender pay gap becausesadly it exists and it still
exists, believe it or not.
We, the Foundation forCommunity Association Research,
we just finished our 2024, wejust published our 2024 salary
and compensation survey andthere is a gender pay gap in

(01:04:34):
community association managementwe probably have.
About 55% of our managers arewomen.
Oh, wow 100% men and in theportfolio manager and the
entry-level manager there'sreally no pay gap.

Speaker 1 (01:04:53):
Is there really a gender associated with the
management role?
Is that not?
That's not a role as managerthat's seen as more female
versus male.

Speaker 2 (01:05:04):
We just happen to have more women than men in our
industry that respond to oursurveys, so I think it's very
even right.
It doesn't matter.
But what we found is the higherpaid positions in community
management.
Men are making more than womenfor the same positions the CEO,

(01:05:28):
the senior executive, ceo ofmanagement company, senior
executive, large-scale communityassociation manager and
high-rise manager.
How often?

Speaker 1 (01:05:36):
do you conduct that survey?

Speaker 2 (01:05:38):
Dawn Every year.

Speaker 1 (01:05:39):
All right, let's keep an eye on it.
Let's hope we're moving in theright direction.

Speaker 2 (01:05:43):
It's lower than the national average of gender pay
gap, but it exists.
So, Donna, let's get on this.

Speaker 1 (01:05:51):
We got to get on it.
I have two comments to makeabout your DEI observations.
One I think the inclusionconcerns crop up a lot around
holiday time and social events.
I've seen that over the yearsand I've actually seen some
communities evolve, thankfully.

(01:06:11):
You know, decades ago theymight have only been celebrating
one holiday.
It would be one set ofdecorations and that would be it
.
If you weren't included in thatgroup, you were just excluded.
And that would be it If youweren't included in that group,
you were just excluded.
Now I go out to meetings aroundholiday time and I see a lot
more groups, a lot more holidaysbeing celebrated.
I think it can only make forhealthier communities when

(01:06:33):
people feel included Absolutely.
And with the gender, let me saythis I have noticed this is very
heartening.
I have noticed this is veryheartening on our boards where
we have men and women, I findthe young, the millennials,
those women.
They have their voices.
In my communities where I havevery elderly board members 80s,

(01:06:59):
90s those women have found theirvoices.
They'll tell the men to shut upand listen and they don't have
any problem inserting them inthe middle.
Ok, the middle generation iswhere sometimes I see the women
are always the proverbialsecretary on the association and
they may take a backseat to thestronger voices and the
stronger opinions on the board.

(01:07:20):
But I think on both ends of thespectrum we're doing pretty
well.

Speaker 2 (01:07:24):
Interesting.
I love that, I love that.
And I'll tell you, before I duginto our data on the pay gap,
my assumption was because I knowa lot of women in this industry
my assumption was our industryis different.
We actually have it, we'reequal.

(01:07:44):
And then I dug into the dataand I was surprised and I was,
you know, I was disappointed.
I'm like, okay, we've got tofix this.
It's 2024.

Speaker 1 (01:07:54):
We've got to fix this Soon to be 2025, when this,
when this episode comes out.
So you have a global presence.
You deal with associations notjust in the United States but in
other markets.
Are there best practices frominternational associations that
you think we should know about?

Speaker 2 (01:08:16):
So what I will say is what I continue to see is we
have so much in common.
We have a lot to share and alot to learn from one another
across the globe.
Best practices from othercountries I would say there are

(01:08:37):
a couple of best practices Ijust heard of one from Germany
that I need to do a little moredigging into which has to do
with an actual evaluationprocess for buildings that are
older, that need work, thatthere's this whole equation of

(01:08:59):
how they evaluate what to dowith it next, and they include a
local appraiser and include thelocality in the process.
So I think there's an option tolearn from that particular
process, and I hope to be ableto do that sometime soon.
I think one of the things Ireferenced earlier was how, in

(01:09:23):
European countries, for example,it's been around longer.
We're just babies, right Likehere in the US.
We're America, we're new.
So community associations havebeen around a lot longer,
condominiums have been around alot longer in some of these
European countries and I thinkwe can learn from them.

(01:09:45):
In the way we govern and thatis, the managers do most of the
work and the governing oncovenant enforcement is less of
a priority for these condominiumbuildings and it's what's more

(01:10:05):
of a priority is oursustainability issues,
maintenance issues, buildingissues, not necessarily covenant
enforcement based on oneneighbor complaining about
somebody else's somethinghappening, and I think that
that's evolution and I thinkwe're going to start seeing some

(01:10:26):
of that, especially in some ofour jurisdictions that have
newer community associations.
We're going to start seeingthat be less important and just
living and being be moreimportant.

Speaker 1 (01:10:38):
I'm also wondering if the European community
associations have any takeawaysfrom us as they grapple with
climate change, flooding and sealevel rise.

Speaker 2 (01:10:49):
So again, they are much more interested in
environmental efficiency andenvironmental sustainability
issues in their buildings andthey also have more government
funds that are directed to thosetypes of initiatives for those
buildings.
So could we learn from that,maybe, but that, will our

(01:11:13):
government learn from that?
I'm not sure We'll see.

Speaker 1 (01:11:16):
That's a whole different podcast episode, Dawn.
Thank you so much.
Please tell our listeners wherethey can find these resources,
where they can find membershipinformation, if you want, where
they can find you.

Speaker 2 (01:11:27):
Of course, go to our website.
We have everything on ourwebsite, caionlineorg.
It's pretty easy to navigate,so you can just click around,
find what you need.
Please contact me anytime.
My email address is dbauman atcaionlineorg.
And Donna, this has been somuch fun and what a pleasure and

(01:11:50):
privilege to spend this timewith you.
I really appreciate it.
Thank you for this opportunity.

Speaker 1 (01:11:54):
Well, it's a privilege for us your expertise
and your passion and keepfighting the good fight.
You are a force to be reckonedwith.
Thank you, Donna Bauman.
Thank you, CAI.
Thank you, We'll do force to bereckoned with.
Thank you, Dawn Bauman.
Thank you, CAI.
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:12:05):
We'll do it together.
I appreciate it, thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:12:07):
Thank you for joining us today.
Don't forget to follow and rateus on your favorite podcast
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