This week’s episode of Take It To The Board explores a topic that resonates deeply with many community association boards: the impact rentals have on a community and how to balance an owner's desire to lease out his or her unit with the association's desire to foster a stable and invested resident population.
Renters can sometimes feel like outsiders, perceived as being less connected to the community’s long-term success but is this perception unfair particularly as it pertains to long-term renters? Host Donna DiMaggio Berger is joined by her partner, David Muller, Vice Chair of Becker’s Community Association Practice and an expert in condominium and planned development law. Together, they discuss their experiences dealing with renters and rental issues in their client communities and brainstorm on best practices and solutions in this area.
Conversation Highlights Include:
- Renter vs. owners’ rights in Florida community associations
- Best practices for renter screening
- Amendments for communities who want to discourage leasing
- Recommended insurance coverage for condominium or cooperative owners who routinely lease out their units
- Challenges related to short-term rentals such as Airbnb
- Renters in “55 and Over” communities
- Section 8 vouchers
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi everyone.
This is Donna DiMaggio-Bergerfrom Take it to the Board.
As we close out 2024, I want totake a moment to thank all of
you for being part of thisincredible community we have
created.
We want to wish you a joyousholiday season filled with
warmth and love, and I reallyhope you enjoy this final
episode of 2024 with my partner,david Muller.
As we talk about renters andthe leasing issues that many
(00:22):
community associationsexperience on a regular basis,
we're going to be very excitedto return in 2025 with a fresh
lineup of fascinating guests andcompelling topics, and you
won't want to miss them.
So until then, if you haven'talready done so, please
subscribe, rate and review, anduntil then, wishing you the
happiest of holidays and a very,very happy new year.
(00:42):
Hi everyone, I'm attorney DonnaDiMaggio-Berger, and this is
Take it to the Board, where wespeak condo and HOA.
Today we're diving into a topicthat stirs up mixed emotions in
many community associationsrenters.
While associations often focuson creating a stable, invested
(01:03):
community of homeowners, renterssometimes find themselves
viewed as outsiders, people whodon't have a stake in the
community's long-term success.
This perception can lead tofriction, misunderstandings and
even unfair treatment.
But are these concerns alwaysjustified?
I'm excited to have my partner,david Muller, here with us to
unpack these issues.
David is a board-certifiedspecialist in condominium and
(01:26):
planned development law and alsoserves as a vice chair of
Becker's Community AssociationLaw Practice Group.
He has extensive experienceworking with Southwest Florida
associations on issues liketenant screening, policy
enforcement and managingcommunity dynamics.
Together, we're going toexplore the unique legal,
operational and social aspectsof renters in our communities
(01:48):
and how associations can strikea fair balance.
So, david, welcome to Take itto the Board.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Oh, thank you so much , Donna.
I appreciate the invitation tobe here today with you.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Yeah, I'm really looking forward to this topic
because we've been doing thispodcast now the Becker's Take it
to the board for three seasonsand we have never had a
discussion about renters and, asyou know, for as long as we've
both been doing this, that thistopic comes almost all the time.
This comes up.
So, like in your experience,david, what is the perception
(02:19):
about renters in communities?
Speaker 2 (02:22):
In general the perception is negative.
A lot of boards and ourcommunity associations for sure,
out here on the West Coast andI'm sure similar for you on the
East Coast in general there's anegative perception of renters
and tenants.
Now, like most things in life,it's probably because of the 5%.
(02:42):
Right, 95% are probably justreally nice, pleasant people
that value the opportunity tolive in the community, even
though they're not owners,they're renters.
But it is oftentimes the 5%that sometimes can give the
entire group a bad name.
But yeah, the short answer toyour question is it serves up a
lot of negative emotions andI've had more than one meeting
(03:04):
with clients where they startout by saying we have got to get
rid of these renters.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
The few rotten apples .
But do you think, david, thatthe perception has really
changed because of the advent ofshort-term rentals like Airbnb?
As opposed to people who'vebeen renting long-term in the
community and they feel almostlike they own the place.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
No for sure.
I think the Airbnb, uh Verbo uhdynamic has has changed a lot.
Uh, you know, example my, myuncle, from New Jersey comes
down to Naples.
He and his wife, uh you knowfour months out of the year and
had been coming to the exactsame place in the exact same
community for like 18 years.
(03:47):
And the people in thatcommunity they don't even know
they're renters for the mostpart.
They treat them really liketheir owners, but they're not
Airbnb-ers.
Their continual comeback everyyear and the percentage of
rentals that are that way Idon't have any data to back this
up, but it must be eroding andbeing replaced with a lot of
(04:09):
Airbnb and Vrbo.
So yeah, it is changing thingsdramatically.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
So in those communities where they do have a
significant percentage ofrenters, david, we do often get
questions like what rights dothese renters have?
Can they show up to meetings?
Do they have the right to makedocument inspection requests?
Speaker 2 (04:28):
It's a good question.
It's a good question and toprepare for this podcast, one of
the things just I went backjust curious, because it's one
of those things you don't oftendo I pulled up the Condominium
Act and I pulled up the HOA Actand just did a word search for
renter and tenant, right, justto see how many times they pop
up.
And you know it's in therequite a bit.
(04:49):
So let's hit some of the highpoints you mentioned right to
attend meetings, board andmembership meetings.
Short answer is no.
Renters don't have the rightsto attend a board meeting or a
membership meeting.
Now, like everything in the law,there's caveats, right.
I have seen scenarios where arenter is a proxy holder,
(05:13):
designated proxy holder, andthen, of course, some documents
have specific requirements forproxy holders, but in general
they're not permitted to come.
There's other nuances, likepower of attorney and things
like that, but we won't get intothat, that's for another
podcast.
But yeah, in general they don'thave the right to attend these
meetings.
They do, for example, in theCondominium Act they have
(05:36):
specific carved out rights toreview the governing documents
as well as certain structuralreports and things like that.
So you will find somecarve-outs within the statutes
that do give renters certainadditional rights, but in
general they don't have theright to go to these meetings.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
You mentioned your family member and there is a
difference, because I have someclients with long-term renters
and they do make an exception tothat rule.
So, even though the board ormembership meeting is open to
members and these are nottechnically members, they're
people who are invested in thecommunity Are you worried about
(06:15):
setting a precedent if you allowa long-term tenant to attend a
meeting and then anothershort-term tenant maybe even a
problematic tenant wants toattend?
Speaker 2 (06:27):
That's always a potential concern.
Under the veil of a selectiveenforcement type argument,
you're treating one persondifferently than you are
somebody else.
So, yeah, that is a concern Ingeneral.
Well, attendance at boardmeetings historically up until
the past couple of years, atleast on the West Coast, it's
(06:48):
not as if people were, like youknow, beating down the door to
come to these meetings.
Right, a lot of these meetingswere not well attended.
It seems like the tide hasturned a little bit, at least on
our coast, where people aremuch more engaged.
The Zoom attendance has kind ofchanged things.
So to your point and yourquestion you do have to be
cognizant of rule one ofcommunity association law no
(07:09):
good deed goes unpunished, whichis, if you allow a tenant to
attend a board meeting or amembership meeting just because
you like them and they're a goodperson, well, you might have a
situation where somebody who'sdisruptive, who's also a renter,
may want to come to yourmeeting and you may not want
them to come because it could beproblematic.
So you do have to be carefulabout who you allow in.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Especially now with the changes in Florida law, and
I should say at the outset,david and I are both Florida
attorneys.
We are going to be talkingabout Florida law, although not
exclusively.
We've got people listening allover, so check your own state
statute.
When it comes to renter'srights.
What about use rights, david?
So somebody's renting, whetherthey're renting for a year or,
(07:51):
you know, multiple years theright to use the parking space,
the right to use the gym and allthe other amenities.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Definitely so in terms of those rights.
It is like, for example, thecondominium act here in Florida.
It is specifically carved outthat the tenant has all of the
use rights to the commonelements and the amenities and
the unit owner shall not havethe rights as a guest unless the
tenant specifically waives therights to use these amenities
and things like that.
(08:19):
So the answer to your questionis yeah, they have all of those
rights, those use rights, as ifthey were an owner and
definitely need to be aware ofthat.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Inspecting the documents.
So I'm renting and I justdecide I don't like this board a
lot so I'm going to make a lotof document inspection requests.
I'm a renter.
What am I entitled to look at?
What am I entitled to?
Speaker 2 (08:43):
look at, yeah, the governing documents for example
in a condominium, theDeclaration of Condominium, the
Articles of Incorporation, theBylaws, the Rules, and I believe
they added here recently to thestatute the certain structural
reports.
I think is another one of thethings that a tenant is allowed.
(09:03):
But yeah, it's a relatively Isay relatively narrow.
The official records, thedefinition of official records
is very broad right andencompasses a whole lot.
So by comparison to what anowner can actually have access
to versus what a tenant can haveaccess to, it is very narrow.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
And those were recent developments, because for years
it was as a tenant.
You're not entitled to reallysee anything.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
A new development for sure.
Yeah, there's definitely a pushand I know you know this better
than me, for sure, because youspend a lot of time focusing in
on the day-to-day ongoings inTallahassee.
I focus in on it as well, butmore like week to week as
opposed to day to day.
But there's a movement by manyof the folks up in Tallahassee
(09:49):
to expand the rights of rentersand you're correct that change
that gives them the ability toinspect certain documents.
That was just added a couple ofyears ago.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Yeah, I've had renters ask their boards I want
to see my file.
Have you ever had that come upwhere a renter said I want to
see my screening file?
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Yeah, I think I've had that from.
Every once in a while I've hadthat come up and yeah, if you
look at the definitions that arebefore us, as far as what they
can get their hands on, they'renot permitted for that,
permitted to see that, althoughthey could go to their landlord,
(10:47):
the unit owner, and say, buteven the landlord's not going up
.
Those issues are coming up forme daily and it's a really good
idea for folks listening.
Pay attention to the statute.
718.111, subparagraph 12 is thesection that covers official
records.
There is a paragraph in therethat talks about the records
(11:08):
that are to be excluded andevery board member, particularly
in a condo I'm referring to now, they really should take a look
at those documents that areexcluded and, as you mentioned,
owners may not.
You know they're not allowed tocertain documents as it
pertains to the leasingapplication.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
You know I should have mentioned in the
introduction that my partner,david, has a very impressive
memory bank when it comes tostatutory citation and case law
citation.
I'm not going to put you to thetest today, but your ability to
spit out case law and statutorycitations is impressive.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Well, it's incredible because I really can't tell you
what I did this past weekend orwhat I had for dinner last
night, but for some reason, Ican tell you exactly what
certain statutes say.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
We're talking about what rights tenants have.
I want to talk about whatrights they don't have,
specifically pets.
So this comes up a lot.
I don't know if you find thison your coast, I know on my
coast we do.
Can we prevent tenants under auniform lease addendum from
having pets in the unit?
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Well, there's cases that talk about the distinction
between owners being allowed tohave pets and tenants not being
allowed to have pets.
There are cases that say youcan prohibit tenants from having
pets but still allow owners,and what I see in my practice is
typically that is in adeclaration of condominium or in
(12:35):
an HOA setting the declarationof covenants.
I do see it in the rules andsometimes the lease addendums
that are essentially rules.
I do see those as well fromtime to time.
But you know we really like Ijoke with people that I spend
80% of my day on the three P'spets, people and parking right
and so you know your questionabout the pets has hit upon two
(13:00):
of the three P's pets and peopleright, two of the three P's
pets and people right.
So you know the bottom line isthat is a common restriction for
tenants not to be able to havepets.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
And then we know what happens they morph into what?
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Emotional support animals.
They morph into emotionalsupport animals or, you know,
less likely, a service animal.
There's a distinction and I'mnot sure if you've had a podcast
on on that topic.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
I predict you probably have, Um, but uh, yeah,
emotional with our partnerJoanne Burnett.
Yes, Joanne, yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Joanne Burnett, who is uh, who's the guru in the
state on, uh, on all thingsemotional support animals and
service animals.
But yes, you are correct thatif you have these restrictions
that say, hey, you can't, youknow you're a tenant and you
can't have a pet, prepareyourself when the tenant shows
up with their dog, there's agood chance.
(13:55):
If you try to pursueenforcement action against the
tenant and the owner for thisviolation, there's a decent
chance.
Their response is going to beto assert that the dog is an
emotional support animal, whichthen, if they check the boxes,
triggers certain state andfederal laws which may result in
the association having to allowfor a reasonable accommodation
(14:18):
of that pet restriction.
So it's a challenging situation.
So it is, it's a challengingsituation.
You know.
I say this.
We all know there aresituations that are no brainers,
where you know we need to bemindful of folks with
disabilities and emotionalsupport animals and service
animals.
They play a very important role.
(14:40):
Right, the problem?
Right, the problem and I thinkyou would probably agree with me
on this is sometimes there arefolks that appear to be abusing
the system and that's where thechallenges come in and, candidly
, that's where you need legalrepresentation to help you flush
through what's a legitimateemotional support animal, a
(15:01):
legitimate disability claim,versus something that is not
legitimate, maybe was purchasedon the internet for 20 bucks.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
I'll tell you.
We will put links to Joanne'stwo episodes in the show notes
for this episode, because shedoes cover that.
And when does this come tolight?
It typically comes to lightwhen the potential tenant is
filling out his or herapplication, right, and it says
do you have pets, do you have aservice animal or emotional
(15:28):
support animal?
So we will add those links.
I want to throw you a littlebit of a curveball.
Okay, you ready.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
I'm ready.
I'm a big baseball fan and I'mmissing the baseball season, so
please throw me a curveball.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
So can tenants have guests?
Let's say we don't have a leaseaddendum, okay, and we talk
about tenants rights to use theunit, parking space, the
amenities, the same as the owner, but does the tenant have a
right to have guests, andincluding overnight guests?
If they're, let's say they gohiking over the summer for a
(16:01):
two-week vacation.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Well, the short answer is, in general, they do
have the rights to have guestsright.
But the more specific answercan be like with your fact
pattern, there can belimitations put on the guests
that tenants can have right, andone of the things we do a lot
of work with is rewritinggoverning documents and you can
(16:23):
put in.
You know we have a prettyextensive section on guest
rights and when they're allowedand what the restrictions are
and if they're overnight and dothey need approval and all of
this you know.
Some communities say to me likewhen I do a document rewrite
project as a little side note, alot of communities out there
should consider a documentrewrite project because the way
(16:45):
the laws are changing and withall of these issues that are
covered by your great podcast, Imean there's so much here and
if communities aren't takingadvantage of some of the
opportunities afforded to themin the law, they're missing out.
And so guest use rights is oneof those areas that are
typically never covered in yourboilerplate developer, attorney
(17:09):
drafted documents.
But we can really hone in onthem, and so when I provide the
first draft of rewrittendocuments for my clients, I warn
them in advance.
I say I'm going to give you awhole section that's going to be
very detailed on guest rights.
I'm going to give you a wholesection that's going to be very
detailed on guest rights.
You may read it and say youdon't like it and we can take it
out.
And you may read it and you maysay this is the best thing I've
(17:31):
ever seen and we can go with it.
So it covers all of thesenuances in terms of guests.
Because look, for example, withyour fact pattern, you don't
want, particularly in the AirbnbVrbo age, you don't want these
tenants, these rental situationsto just turn into never-ending
(17:55):
spring break parties.
Right, and that can happen.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Walling door of people in the community.
I think there's an even morenegative connotation when it
comes to unscreened guests,because at least with the
tenants and I want to talk toyou about that next there's some
form of screening going on, butin many of these documents, to
your point, unless you'verecently updated them no
developer documents I've everseen have had a thorough
(18:20):
screening provision for justguests, whether it's the owner's
guest or tenant's guest orwhoever.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
No, for sure, For sure.
And you know I've I work out ofthe Naples and the Sarasota
offices and you know my I've gotteenage daughters and you know,
on more than one occasionthey've said to me you know I'd
say where are you, where are yougoing?
Oh, we're going to a party onSiesta Beach.
Okay, what's the deal?
Well, somebody rented a condothere and half the high school
is going to show up and go tothe party at the condo right on
(18:54):
the beach.
It's going to be incredible.
And the whole time I'm thinkingwait a second, is that one of
my clients?
Because if it's one of myclients, I'm going to get a call
on Monday about this.
But these are the seriousconcerns that need to be
considered, because you do notwant spring break happening in
your communities every weekend.
You know four or five monthsout of the year and it can
(19:15):
happen.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
You talked about document rewrite projects.
I know you do a lot of those,david, and yeah, if you haven't
looked at your documents with akeen eye over the last couple of
years, you're way overdue.
That being said, when you dothose document rewrites whether
it's a look it's a little morecompelling in a multifamily
(19:35):
building as opposed to a singlefamily homeowners association,
but even those folks are veryconcerned about rentals.
What does your ideal screeningamendment look like when you're
doing the rewrite project?
Talk to us a lot about thevarious amendments that the
board can consider if renting issomething that's either
(19:58):
currently a problem in theircommunity or a potential future
problem.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Right?
No, I'm happy to go into thatand let me set the scene for
this discussion.
On more than one occasion I'vehad a president call me,
typically in the condo setting,but sometimes in the HOA setting
.
The condo president calls meand says okay, we are freaking
out here.
We just realized that theperson that purchased unit 108,
(20:28):
right by the swimming pool, is asexual predator, and what are
we going to do about it?
We've got to get this personout of there.
And I've had occasions.
There've been times, where I'vesaid wait just a minute, and I
look at the governing documentsand I say, all right, we've got
a plan, you've got restrictionsand there's things we can do.
(20:48):
On other occasions, though,I've had a situation where I've
had to tell the client you don'thave any restrictions or
authority to approve sales, andsometimes they don't have the
ability to approve leases andthings like that, and so that
may be an extreme example, butit's a real world example that
has come up, so this is why thisis important.
(21:10):
Now, before I get into some ofthe nuances of what I like to
see with these documents, Ialways like to start out by
saying remember that if you'regoing to put in these
administrative obligations onyour community, like receiving
applications, reviewing themyou've got to actually do it
right.
You can't just put in all theserestrictions and then not
(21:31):
actually have anybody do theadministrative work, and if your
community, particularly maybe asmaller community, maybe you
don't have an in-house manager,you've got to make sure that you
can actually do the work.
Now, setting aside theadministrative work that goes
along with it, I like to seeclear-cut language that says you
must submit an application, theapplication, put in a deadline
(21:54):
by which the application must bereceived before the proposed
closing date.
I like to make it clear-cut thatwe're going to run a criminal
background check and in yourdocuments you want to have very
objective criteria addressingwhat type of criminal background
offenses and convictions willempower the association to deny
(22:21):
an application.
And just going through a couplehere of Becker we're constantly
revising and updating our formsso that we have the strongest
ability to win these cases ifthey're litigated.
Just going through a recent docrewrite project that I went
through that I prepared, hereare some of the criteria A
(22:42):
capital first or second degreefelony involving violence to
persons within the past 10 years.
A first or second degree felonyinvolving illegal drugs within
the past 10 years.
Any drug offense.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
David, I'm sorry, let me stop you.
You're talking about aconviction, not an arrest.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Yep for sure.
We're talking about convictions.
So the opening paragraph saysthe person seeking approval has
been convicted or pled nocontest to or has been released
from prosecutor.
So I can tell you all convictedon this date of this offense
and it directly syncs up withwhat our documents say and, as a
result, we're rejecting yourapplication.
Let's just keep it real here Amisdemeanor smoking marijuana
(23:58):
offense from 28 years ago,that's not going to be part of
the criteria that can be used todeny an application.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Agreed, agreed.
What about credit score?
Remember this particularepisode, and we're doing kind of
a crossover between sales andleases because the denial for
good cause language you justlaid out.
We typically use that for bothscreenings, whether we're
screening potential purchasersor potential lessees.
But let's step with renters fora second.
(24:28):
Do we care what the renter'scredit score is if it's the
owner who owes assessments tothe association?
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Well, the credit score is an interesting topic.
You'll get different answers tothis question depending on
which lawyer you talk to as astarting point.
So all I can do is give you myanswer.
But my answer is, for a renterno, we don't care.
And the reason we don't care istwofold.
Number one the buck stops withthe owner to pay the assessments
(24:57):
.
It is the owner who has theobligation.
Now the second reason for myanswer and we could debate it.
I'd be curious to see if you aresimilar thinking to me, or
maybe you have some alternativeviews on this.
The other reason is we have theability to seek to collect the
rent to pay for the unpaidassessment, right?
(25:17):
So I have heard lawyers arguewell, wait a minute, it's that
authority embedded in thecommunity association statutes
to go grab the rent.
That might be one of thereasons we care about the credit
score, but in general, to me,credit score is look, there are
things that I think are propercriteria to be focused on when
(25:40):
it comes to evaluating a tenant.
I personally don't think creditscore makes the cut.
How about you?
Speaker 1 (25:46):
I agree.
I think the hey, if the tenantcan't pay the rent, that's going
to impact the owner, and if theowner is an investor owner
which we're going to talk aboutin a second maybe they're
depending on that.
They don't want to lay out themoney.
You know that's going to impacttheir ability to pay us.
I think that's a moreattenuated argument to make.
(26:09):
It does bring up another issuefor me, though, that I want to
ask you about.
Are you surprised that moreowners whether it's an
individual who's just rentingthey're not really an investor
owner, but they're renting rightnow but particularly investor
owners that they're not runningtheir own background checks?
David, for the most partthey're just relying on the
(26:32):
association screening, and a lotof them really don't run their
own background checks.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Yeah, I am very surprised, I know, with my house
, uh, you know, I know with myhouse, um, I've invested a
ridiculous amount of money andin this house and if I ever end
up, uh, buying another house andrenting out my current house,
who knows whether I'll be ableto do that someday?
Um, if I ever find myself in aposition where I'm going to be
(26:59):
renting this property that I'veinvested so much money in, you
better believe I'm going to wantto know all I can about these
renters, because if I get somefolks in there that maybe are
not the type I want in there,yeah, it can be a problem and
they can damage your propertyand leave you high and dry and
(27:22):
then get in the car and drive toCanada and there's really no
recourse.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
I want to ask you have you ever considered an
amendment, david, that wouldrequire owners to conduct their
own background screening checksin addition to the association
screening?
Speaker 2 (27:36):
You know, I've never considered that, but I think
that's, you know, not a bad idea.
One argument might be do youreally need two?
It could be all people.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
but this way at least they know who they're bringing
into the community and they, youknow we've done away with their
plausible deniability.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Right?
No for sure, I mean.
I think that that is if thatamendment is written properly to
impose that type of restriction.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
I think that works.
You talked a minute ago.
If you are ever in thesituation where you decide to to
rent out your lavish currenthome, um 2200 square feet.
Yeah, palatial estate yeah therecould be your state.
Um, there could be some damagethat a tenant does, and tenants
(28:29):
not only have the ability to dodamage inside the unit, but
damage to the common areas.
Let's talk about insurance alittle bit and security deposits
.
So how important is it thatowners who routinely rent out
and we're talking about inCotabiniums, let's say in a
multifamily building, that theyhave interior coverage?
Speaker 2 (28:50):
I think it's important for a lot of reasons.
I'm always amazed at the number, particularly in the condo
setting.
In the HOA setting, I find it'spretty common to have the
insurance you need.
It's pretty common to have theinsurance you need, but in the
condo setting, a lot of ownersdon't have the insurance
(29:11):
protection.
The most common version is theHO6 insurance policy and that
can provide you coverage.
I'm also candidly shocked bythe number of people that don't
really know who their insuranceagent is or don't really
communicate with them.
Your insurance agent is.
You know, when you're makingyour holiday card list, your
(29:32):
insurance agent needs to be highon the list, just below your
lawyer, in terms of who you keepin touch with, because you need
to ask them these questions.
Hey, I'm looking to rent myproperty out.
Let's cover all of the thingsthat could happen.
What happens if the?
You know what happens if, forexample, some condominiums have
(29:53):
situations where there's, like,a swimming pool dedicated to the
unit you know that's lesscommon type of condominium
association but maybe a jacuzzior things like that.
You know what happens ifsomeone's injured or God forbid
killed in my property during therental.
What's going to happen?
What happens if they cause awater leak.
What type of coverage is there?
(30:15):
So yeah, insurance coveragewhen you're renting is
critically important.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
I like to tie proof of the HO6 coverage with the
association added as anadditional insured as one of the
reasons to potentially deny ifthey don't provide that.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
It's a good point.
Yeah, having that extra layerof protection for the
association is critical.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
So in Florida again, we've got people listening all
over.
But in Florida associations areentitled to take a security
deposit for common area damagecaused by renters up to one
equal to one month's rent.
I don't know if you get askedthis question.
I get asked.
This just came up recently.
The renter had been violatingcertain restrictions and rules.
(30:58):
There were fines assessed.
The association wanted tomaintain a portion of that
security deposit to cover thefines.
My answer is no that thesecurity deposit is there to
cover damage.
If you read the statute again,we're talking very Florida
specific right now.
But what are your thoughts onthe use, the application of that
(31:19):
security deposit?
Speaker 2 (31:21):
I think so I predict your rationale.
There was the statutesbasically covers what you can
use it for, and fines were notincluded.
Presumably the legislatureopted not to add that in.
Had they wanted to include thatauthority, presumably they
would have added it.
So no, I agree with you.
(31:41):
I for sure agree with thatconclusion.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
All these episodes because they twist and turn.
I just thought of another thingI want to ask you about
security deposits and that'syour client David has been
taking by the way, I'm makingthis up If it's your client
listening, we're not referencingparticularly Client has been
taking these common areasecurity deposits for years.
They never return them.
Tenants move out, they don'task for them.
(32:07):
They've accumulated.
What do they do with them?
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Yeah, that's an interesting question.
I would definitely want to getmore information about exactly
time and never acted on, youknow, needed to dip into those
security deposits.
So I mean I think I haven't hadthat specific fact pattern come
(32:33):
up, but I'm predicting theanswer is going to be return it
to the owner.
But you tell me, have you hadthat come up and what was your
analysis?
Speaker 1 (32:41):
I should know that these scenarios I'm giving you
are so different on the eastcoast of Florida as opposed to
the west coast of Florida,because we do have things come
up all the time in southeastFlorida.
I think it's a sheet.
Am I pronouncing that correctlyto the state?
I think you probably have toturn the funds over to the state
(33:02):
after making a good faitheffort to give it back to
whoever gave you the deposit,whether it was the owner or the
tenant directly.
But this is into housekeepingissues, right?
If you're self-managed, makesure that you're keeping on top
of these things.
If you're professionallymanaged, there's probably,
hopefully, a policy in place todeal with the security deposits.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Right, gotcha, yeah, I think that you would.
You definitely want to stay ontop of that.
I mean, look, since wereferenced my daughters earlier,
you know I always tell themrule one know where your money
is.
Okay.
So that's the same rule for ourclients Know where your money
is and keep a close watch onyour money, because if years
have gone by and these securitydeposits have just built up, it
can cause all sorts of headachesand, like you mentioned, the
(33:52):
law is vast.
It's incredible just how vastthe laws are, particularly in
the state of Florida,particularly on community
association issues, and if youallow something like that to
build up, there could be allsorts of legal implications and
for the most part, you want tojust try your best to avoid that
(34:14):
.
So keep track of your money andif you need to return it to
somebody, return it to thatsomebody.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
You're so diplomatic, you refer to our Florida laws,
our Florida shared ownershipstatutes as vast I call them
bloated and virtuallyincomprehensible.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
So very much I'm often saying to my clients.
Let me preface this by sayingdon't shoot the lawyer, right?
Because it is completelyridiculous how intricate some of
these statutes have gotten.
How intricate some of thesestatutes have gotten, but look,
(34:49):
it is what it is.
We make our living interpretingthem, so it is a challenge.
And look, every year thelegislature meets in Florida and
every year these statuteschange.
So I'm licensed in Texas andlast I checked.
So you know I'm licensed inTexas and last I checked, I
don't think Texas like atwo-page statute Nice.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Yeah, nice exactly, Although it probably would mean
less work for-.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
It probably would.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
With a two-page statute.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Probably good for our golf game, though, because we'd
be golfing every afternoon at 4o'clock instead of working.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Well, some of us golf like you.
Some of us just live on a golfcourse and heckle the golfers
some of the golf that go past.
I would never heckle you, david.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
And I appreciate that .
I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
So, like you, like me , like our peers and colleagues,
we've all been doing thesewebinars.
I did one right before I hoppedon this podcast episode talking
about the new safety laws inFlorida, tied to the inspections
, the engineering inspectionsand then, of course, the reserve
funding.
I think some of the frustrationthat a lot of communities are
(36:14):
experiencing right now, inaddition to paying for all this
stuff, is that in communitieswhere they do have a significant
percentage of renters inmultifamily buildings, they're
finding access control problems.
So they've got renters who, ifthey're doing large concrete
restoration or painting andwaterproofing or roofing
projects, where a renter may say, hey, I'm not letting you in.
(36:36):
I paid for a year for this unit, okay, I want to have access to
that balcony.
Maybe it has to be shut offbecause they are doing concrete
restoration on the balcony, butit's hard to explain that to a
renter, particularly if the unitowner, slash landlord, has not
done a good job preparing his orher tenant for a series of
(37:00):
upcoming maintenance and repairprojects.
Have you run into that as well?
Speaker 2 (37:05):
series of upcoming maintenance and repair projects.
Have you run into that as well?
Yes, it's a big problem.
It's a big problem,particularly with our aging
buildings, with all this workthat's needed to be done.
Yeah, it is a big problem.
How do you deal with it?
Number one the law is on yourside, right?
I mean, you have the right toperform this maintenance, the
repair, the reconstruction.
(37:25):
You have the right to do that,and owners and tenants can't
prohibit you from doing that,from doing that work.
But there are best practicesand recommended steps that need
to be followed.
Okay, let's go through some ofthose.
Disclosure transparency, advancenotice right, that's the name
of the game.
Disclosure transparency,advance notice right, that's the
(37:46):
name of the game.
As much lead time as you cangive to your community to let
them know this big ticketproject's coming up.
This is what's happening.
We're going to continue to giveyou updates and developments.
It's critical.
You would hope the owners thenconvey that information to the
tenants, but that doesn't alwayshappen.
And so, yeah, it is a shame,particularly in like a condo
(38:07):
that's waterfront, that allowsweekly rentals, where there's
all this work being done on theswimming pool and the family
from Iowa comes down forvacation and book their condo
unit through Airbnb or Vrbo andthen they find out they can't
use their swimming pool.
They're not going to be veryhappy, right?
(38:27):
So you would hope the ownersare going to convey this
information, but to me, thefirst step is make sure the
owners know this informationright.
Because there's no chance it'sgoing to get to the tenants if
the owners don't know.
And if the owners know withenough advance notice, they can
take whatever steps arenecessary and maybe even decide
(38:48):
not to rent their unit for themonth where the work's going to
be done.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Yeah, makes total sense.
Are there any particularconcerns, David, for 55 and over
communities when it comes torenters?
Speaker 2 (39:02):
There are those concerns With 55 and older.
There are certain requirements,that one of them being that 80%
of the units are occupied bysomebody 55 and older.
So right off the bat, you'vegot to make sure that that
census is adhered to when itcomes to renting, because you
(39:22):
certainly wouldn't want to loseyour 55 and older status.
I know, for those communitiesthat have that status, they
treasure it right, and so youdon't want to lose that.
So, yeah, there are manyreasons that they need to be
paying attention, but that 80%threshold is one of them, one of
the big ones.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
Themes we've had on the podcast.
There's been a coupleArtificial intelligence I ask
about.
I'm not going to ask you aboutthat because I don't even think
it has applicability here unlessrobots start applying to
purchase homes or prior to rent.
We're not there yet, not quiteyet.
But another thing has been theaffordable housing crisis.
(40:00):
This is reaching critical massin Florida and other states and
it's gotten worse.
It's gotten worse.
We've got more Fortune 500companies moving in, but I'm not
sure where all the servicepeople are going to live.
So this has been a questionthat I've asked a number of
guests.
I'm going to ask you about itin terms of Section 8 housing
(40:24):
vouchers, so I don't know howmuch again you're on Southwest
Florida.
It's a little bit.
It might be a little bitdifferent in your market, but I
know you know this topic.
What do you say to clients whoyou know when they are
confronted with a tenant who isthe beneficiary of Section 8
housing voucher, and maybe justtell our listeners what that is?
Speaker 2 (40:47):
Right.
So Section 8, it is a program,you know, a governmental program
, to help supplement the rentsof folks that are below a
certain economic line.
Right, you know folks that arefrom an economically challenged
(41:07):
group, an economicallychallenged group.
So the question becomes can you, can a community, as an example
, say nope, no, section eight,anywhere here and not in our
community?
Now I will tell you, inSouthwest Florida this topic
doesn't come up a whole lot.
(41:27):
To your earlier point where yousaid communities are changing, I
view myself as being on thefront line of a lot of things
and I've got a front row ticketto seeing how Florida is
changing.
And one example of that is, youknow, I represent a fair number
of mobile home communities andthey are calling me more and
(41:52):
more, saying we don't knowwhat's happening, we assume it's
the housing crisis, but we'vegot families moving in here for
the first time ever, like thishas always been.
You know, these are not 55 andolder.
They, you know, they're justmobile home communities and
they're the president calls meand says we have never had like
families, have never wanted anypart of this place, because it
(42:13):
was just very much, you know, tocater to the elderly folks.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
But it's more affordable, right, David?
So that's what's generating theinterest?
Speaker 2 (42:21):
That's what's generating.
The interest is in, you know,particularly in coastal areas,
and I know this is true forwhere you are on the east coast
of Florida.
But in the West Coast ofFlorida, where are you going to
live anymore?
It's a challenge, and so folksare turning to wherever they can
find housing that's affordable,and in some cases it's in some
(42:42):
of these mobile home parks,mobile home communities.
So you're seeing this housingcrisis come up in different ways
and so, candidly, I've haddiscussions with those groups
about hey, do you want toconsider certain types of
restrictions?
Not that we don't all lovefamilies, but a lot of folks
didn't buy into these mobilehome parks with the thinking
(43:03):
that they're going to be living,you know, in this kind of
family environment.
But back to your question.
You know, could you, knowingthat again, we talked about sort
of the negative connotation forrenters.
Some in Florida, some boardmembers, have a negative
connotation when it comes toSection 8 housing.
And let's just cut right to thechase.
(43:23):
The thought is, if you havefolks with Section 8 housing
supplementation, if word spreadsaround that your community has
these folks, it may have anegative impact, or be perceived
to have a negative impact, onproperty values.
Now let me clarify, since thisis a podcast, what I just stated
(43:45):
is not Dave Muller's opinion onthe subject.
I'm telling you what you hearfrom folks who have these
concerns.
So, in terms of just flat outdenying the rights of folks with
Section 8 housing to livesomeplace, you have to be
particularly concerned about howthat might be perceived and
(44:09):
might be an allegation of aviolation of the Fair Housing
Act right, which, again, not toplug.
I'm sure you got into that indepth with your podcast with
Joanne Burnett from our firm whospecializes in this area, but
that would be a real concern ofmine.
There's a legal concept calleddisparate impact right, where
restrictions cannot have adisparate impact on certain
(44:32):
groups that are protected bystate and federal law.
And if you adopt a restrictionthat says no Section 8, you
might find yourself with anallegation that that restriction
has a disparate impact on someof these protected groups.
So you've got to be verycareful before you go there In
your practice.
Donna, have you had this comeup and how does it play out for
you?
Speaker 1 (44:52):
Well, we have had it come up, and you mentioned a few
minutes ago about in Florida,how associations have the right
to demand rent from tenants inunits where the owner is
delinquent and not payingassessments to the association.
In those cases I think Section8 vouchers are actually very
beneficial because you can go tothe government, the local guy,
(45:13):
and say here you go, we'redemanding that you turn over
those funds directly to theassociation.
So look, I think there is anegative connotation about it.
But I absolutely agree that youcannot make this decision
without consulting withexperienced legal counsel and
you know what there could be asilver lining to it as well.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
Could be Money.
Is money right Whether it'scoming directly from someone's
pocket?
Speaker 1 (45:43):
And how often do you get it from the government right
?
Speaker 2 (45:46):
You don't.
You don't get it from thegovernment that often.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
They're usually taking it.
They're usually taking it,they're usually not giving it.
Um, I can't let you wrap upwithout talking about what you,
your family, your friends andour peers and colleagues in
southwest florida haveexperienced this hurricane
season with helene, with milton.
(46:09):
Um, I mean, it's just been.
It's been a lot.
And I say this I've been onthis coast and for this cycle
we've been spared.
But can you tell us what you'vebeen coping with over there and
what you're seeing with yourassociations?
Speaker 2 (46:24):
Yeah, it's a tragedy on so many fronts.
Now I will say this Certainareas of the West Coast of
Florida got hammered really hard.
Some of them got hammered twice, by Helene and by Milton, and I
think particularly with Miltonwe were expecting the scope of
devastation to be much morefar-reaching than it ended up
(46:47):
being, but for those folks thatare in the areas that were hit
hard, it's devastating.
Just to give you horror stories, I have clients that were just
on the cusp of restoring,finishing the restoration work
from Ian, and then Milton orHelene comes along and
(47:09):
redistributes a couple of feetof the Gulf of Mexico and
they're just reconstructedcommunities.
Um, those communities then dropsometimes hundreds of thousands
of dollars in remediation workto pull out the wet stuff, the
wet, soon to be moldy stuff fromHelene.
(47:29):
Uh, as soon as the check wasthen cut to the remediation
company, three days later morefeet of the Gulf of Mexico
redistributed back into thecommunities with Milton.
And look, I've had all sorts ofvery challenging conversations
with clients.
You know, a couple ofcommunities are just almost
(47:50):
ready to wave the white flag,which is a whole, nother
interesting podcast that wecould have.
You know, a couple ofcommunities are just almost
ready to wave the white flag,which is a whole, nother
interesting podcast that wecould have.
But yeah, it's been devastatingand you know particularly the
Minnesota Key area.
You know that portion ofnorthern part of Lee County,
charlotte County, southernSarasota County and then of
course part of Lee County,charlotte County, southern
(48:11):
Sarasota County and then, and ofcourse with Helene you know,
downtown Sarasota was hit prettyhard.
I mean, it's it's kind ofshocking with Helene how far
inland the water came intodowntown Sarasota.
You know, again, ian was adifferent beast than Helene and
Milton, but all three have justbeen challenging and you all on
(48:36):
the East Coast.
I don't know if you saw thegraphic, but I think, like the
last, I don't know 15 hurricanes.
It's even more than that.
I think the last 15 hurricanesto hit the state of Florida
named hurricanes.
I think they're all on the WestCoast and Panhandle.
I don't think you on the EastCoast have had any of them.
I forget exactly what thenumber is, but yeah, I don't
want anybody to get hit by thesethings.
Speaker 1 (48:56):
Where do you think the resilience comes from,
though, to keep going, becauseyou're right, the West Coast has
gotten hammered over the lastfew years.
Speaker 2 (49:06):
I think the short answer is at least for six
months out of the year.
There's no better place in theworld to live than Southwest
Florida, so I think that's wherethe resiliency comes in.
Speaker 1 (49:17):
Listen, I'm talking to the right person, because the
last thing I want to ask youbefore I let you go is you know?
I've known you a long time,david, but I go way back yeah.
I perused your firm bio and Inoticed that it says you are,
you're into endurance sports.
So if anybody understandsresilience, which endurance
sports?
What does that mean?
What do you?
Are you rock?
Are you mountain climbing?
(49:38):
What are you doing?
Speaker 2 (49:40):
So I'm currently training for my seventh marathon
.
I'm doing the Miami marathon inFebruary, so I'm training for
that and I've I've done a fairshare of triathlons in my day.
I did an Ironman once and whoknows, there might be another
Ironman in my future.
So, yeah, I just find that agood sweat is the best therapy
(50:01):
there is.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
You're talking to somebody who does yoga and
Pilates.
I guess that doesn't count,does it?
Speaker 2 (50:07):
My wife does Pilates, so I can tell you that I
couldn't last in a Pilates classfor three minutes, so I have
mad respect for people who doPilates.
Speaker 1 (50:16):
Your bar is hard, David.
Thanks so much for joining us.
Speaker 2 (50:20):
I appreciate the opportunity and it was great to
talk to everybody today.
Speaker 1 (50:25):
Thank you for joining us today.
Don't forget to follow and rateus on your favorite podcast
platform, or visittakeittotheboardcom for more
ways to connect.
Hi everyone.
This is Donna DiMaggio-Bergerfrom Take it to the Board.
As we close out 2024, I want totake a moment to thank all of
you for being part of thisincredible community we have
created.
We want to wish you a joyousholiday season filled with
warmth and love, and I reallyhope you enjoy this final
episode of 2024 with my partner,david Muller.
As we talk about renters andthe leasing issues that many
(00:22):
community associationsexperience on a regular basis,
we're going to be very excitedto return in 2025 with a fresh
lineup of fascinating guests andcompelling topics, and you
won't want to miss them.
So until then, if you haven'talready done so, please
subscribe, rate and review, anduntil then, wishing you the
happiest of holidays and a very,very happy new year.
(00:42):
Hi everyone, I'm attorney DonnaDiMaggio-Berger, and this is
Take it to the Board, where wespeak condo and HOA.
Today we're diving into a topicthat stirs up mixed emotions in
many community associationsrenters.
While associations often focuson creating a stable, invested
(01:03):
community of homeowners, renterssometimes find themselves
viewed as outsiders, people whodon't have a stake in the
community's long-term success.
This perception can lead tofriction, misunderstandings and
even unfair treatment.
But are these concerns alwaysjustified?
I'm excited to have my partner,david Muller, here with us to
unpack these issues.
David is a board-certifiedspecialist in condominium and
(01:26):
planned development law and alsoserves as a vice chair of
Becker's Community AssociationLaw Practice Group.
He has extensive experienceworking with Southwest Florida
associations on issues liketenant screening, policy
enforcement and managingcommunity dynamics.
Together, we're going toexplore the unique legal,
operational and social aspectsof renters in our communities
(01:48):
and how associations can strikea fair balance.
So, david, welcome to Take itto the Board.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Oh, thank you so much , Donna.
I appreciate the invitation tobe here today with you.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Yeah, I'm really looking forward to this topic
because we've been doing thispodcast now the Becker's Take it
to the board for three seasonsand we have never had a
discussion about renters and, asyou know, for as long as we've
both been doing this, that thistopic comes almost all the time.
This comes up.
So, like in your experience,david, what is the perception
(02:19):
about renters in communities?
Speaker 2 (02:22):
In general the perception is negative.
A lot of boards and ourcommunity associations for sure,
out here on the West Coast andI'm sure similar for you on the
East Coast in general there's anegative perception of renters
and tenants.
Now, like most things in life,it's probably because of the 5%.
(02:42):
Right, 95% are probably justreally nice, pleasant people
that value the opportunity tolive in the community, even
though they're not owners,they're renters.
But it is oftentimes the 5%that sometimes can give the
entire group a bad name.
But yeah, the short answer toyour question is it serves up a
lot of negative emotions andI've had more than one meeting
(03:04):
with clients where they startout by saying we have got to get
rid of these renters.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
The few rotten apples .
But do you think, david, thatthe perception has really
changed because of the advent ofshort-term rentals like Airbnb?
As opposed to people who'vebeen renting long-term in the
community and they feel almostlike they own the place.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
No for sure.
I think the Airbnb, uh Verbo uhdynamic has has changed a lot.
Uh, you know, example my, myuncle, from New Jersey comes
down to Naples.
He and his wife, uh you knowfour months out of the year and
had been coming to the exactsame place in the exact same
community for like 18 years.
(03:47):
And the people in thatcommunity they don't even know
they're renters for the mostpart.
They treat them really liketheir owners, but they're not
Airbnb-ers.
Their continual comeback everyyear and the percentage of
rentals that are that way Idon't have any data to back this
up, but it must be eroding andbeing replaced with a lot of
(04:09):
Airbnb and Vrbo.
So yeah, it is changing thingsdramatically.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
So in those communities where they do have a
significant percentage ofrenters, david, we do often get
questions like what rights dothese renters have?
Can they show up to meetings?
Do they have the right to makedocument inspection requests?
Speaker 2 (04:28):
It's a good question.
It's a good question and toprepare for this podcast, one of
the things just I went backjust curious, because it's one
of those things you don't oftendo I pulled up the Condominium
Act and I pulled up the HOA Actand just did a word search for
renter and tenant, right, justto see how many times they pop
up.
And you know it's in therequite a bit.
(04:49):
So let's hit some of the highpoints you mentioned right to
attend meetings, board andmembership meetings.
Short answer is no.
Renters don't have the rightsto attend a board meeting or a
membership meeting.
Now, like everything in the law,there's caveats, right.
I have seen scenarios where arenter is a proxy holder,
(05:13):
designated proxy holder, andthen, of course, some documents
have specific requirements forproxy holders, but in general
they're not permitted to come.
There's other nuances, likepower of attorney and things
like that, but we won't get intothat, that's for another
podcast.
But yeah, in general they don'thave the right to attend these
meetings.
They do, for example, in theCondominium Act they have
(05:36):
specific carved out rights toreview the governing documents
as well as certain structuralreports and things like that.
So you will find somecarve-outs within the statutes
that do give renters certainadditional rights, but in
general they don't have theright to go to these meetings.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
You mentioned your family member and there is a
difference, because I have someclients with long-term renters
and they do make an exception tothat rule.
So, even though the board ormembership meeting is open to
members and these are nottechnically members, they're
people who are invested in thecommunity Are you worried about
(06:15):
setting a precedent if you allowa long-term tenant to attend a
meeting and then anothershort-term tenant maybe even a
problematic tenant wants toattend?
Speaker 2 (06:27):
That's always a potential concern.
Under the veil of a selectiveenforcement type argument,
you're treating one persondifferently than you are
somebody else.
So, yeah, that is a concern Ingeneral.
Well, attendance at boardmeetings historically up until
the past couple of years, atleast on the West Coast, it's
(06:48):
not as if people were, like youknow, beating down the door to
come to these meetings.
Right, a lot of these meetingswere not well attended.
It seems like the tide hasturned a little bit, at least on
our coast, where people aremuch more engaged.
The Zoom attendance has kind ofchanged things.
So to your point and yourquestion you do have to be
cognizant of rule one ofcommunity association law no
(07:09):
good deed goes unpunished, whichis, if you allow a tenant to
attend a board meeting or amembership meeting just because
you like them and they're a goodperson, well, you might have a
situation where somebody who'sdisruptive, who's also a renter,
may want to come to yourmeeting and you may not want
them to come because it could beproblematic.
So you do have to be carefulabout who you allow in.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Especially now with the changes in Florida law, and
I should say at the outset,david and I are both Florida
attorneys.
We are going to be talkingabout Florida law, although not
exclusively.
We've got people listening allover, so check your own state
statute.
When it comes to renter'srights.
What about use rights, david?
So somebody's renting, whetherthey're renting for a year or,
(07:51):
you know, multiple years theright to use the parking space,
the right to use the gym and allthe other amenities.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Definitely so in terms of those rights.
It is like, for example, thecondominium act here in Florida.
It is specifically carved outthat the tenant has all of the
use rights to the commonelements and the amenities and
the unit owner shall not havethe rights as a guest unless the
tenant specifically waives therights to use these amenities
and things like that.
(08:19):
So the answer to your questionis yeah, they have all of those
rights, those use rights, as ifthey were an owner and
definitely need to be aware ofthat.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Inspecting the documents.
So I'm renting and I justdecide I don't like this board a
lot so I'm going to make a lotof document inspection requests.
I'm a renter.
What am I entitled to look at?
What am I entitled to?
Speaker 2 (08:43):
look at, yeah, the governing documents for example
in a condominium, theDeclaration of Condominium, the
Articles of Incorporation, theBylaws, the Rules, and I believe
they added here recently to thestatute the certain structural
reports.
I think is another one of thethings that a tenant is allowed.
(09:03):
But yeah, it's a relatively Isay relatively narrow.
The official records, thedefinition of official records
is very broad right andencompasses a whole lot.
So by comparison to what anowner can actually have access
to versus what a tenant can haveaccess to, it is very narrow.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
And those were recent developments, because for years
it was as a tenant.
You're not entitled to reallysee anything.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
A new development for sure.
Yeah, there's definitely a pushand I know you know this better
than me, for sure, because youspend a lot of time focusing in
on the day-to-day ongoings inTallahassee.
I focus in on it as well, butmore like week to week as
opposed to day to day.
But there's a movement by manyof the folks up in Tallahassee
(09:49):
to expand the rights of rentersand you're correct that change
that gives them the ability toinspect certain documents.
That was just added a couple ofyears ago.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Yeah, I've had renters ask their boards I want
to see my file.
Have you ever had that come upwhere a renter said I want to
see my screening file?
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Yeah, I think I've had that from.
Every once in a while I've hadthat come up and yeah, if you
look at the definitions that arebefore us, as far as what they
can get their hands on, they'renot permitted for that,
permitted to see that, althoughthey could go to their landlord,
(10:47):
the unit owner, and say, buteven the landlord's not going up
.
Those issues are coming up forme daily and it's a really good
idea for folks listening.
Pay attention to the statute.
718.111, subparagraph 12 is thesection that covers official
records.
There is a paragraph in therethat talks about the records
(11:08):
that are to be excluded andevery board member, particularly
in a condo I'm referring to now, they really should take a look
at those documents that areexcluded and, as you mentioned,
owners may not.
You know they're not allowed tocertain documents as it
pertains to the leasingapplication.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
You know I should have mentioned in the
introduction that my partner,david, has a very impressive
memory bank when it comes tostatutory citation and case law
citation.
I'm not going to put you to thetest today, but your ability to
spit out case law and statutorycitations is impressive.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Well, it's incredible because I really can't tell you
what I did this past weekend orwhat I had for dinner last
night, but for some reason, Ican tell you exactly what
certain statutes say.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
We're talking about what rights tenants have.
I want to talk about whatrights they don't have,
specifically pets.
So this comes up a lot.
I don't know if you find thison your coast, I know on my
coast we do.
Can we prevent tenants under auniform lease addendum from
having pets in the unit?
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Well, there's cases that talk about the distinction
between owners being allowed tohave pets and tenants not being
allowed to have pets.
There are cases that say youcan prohibit tenants from having
pets but still allow owners,and what I see in my practice is
typically that is in adeclaration of condominium or in
(12:35):
an HOA setting the declarationof covenants.
I do see it in the rules andsometimes the lease addendums
that are essentially rules.
I do see those as well fromtime to time.
But you know we really like Ijoke with people that I spend
80% of my day on the three P'spets, people and parking right
and so you know your questionabout the pets has hit upon two
(13:00):
of the three P's pets and peopleright, two of the three P's
pets and people right.
So you know the bottom line isthat is a common restriction for
tenants not to be able to havepets.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
And then we know what happens they morph into what?
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Emotional support animals.
They morph into emotionalsupport animals or, you know,
less likely, a service animal.
There's a distinction and I'mnot sure if you've had a podcast
on on that topic.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
I predict you probably have, Um, but uh, yeah,
emotional with our partnerJoanne Burnett.
Yes, Joanne, yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Joanne Burnett, who is uh, who's the guru in the
state on, uh, on all thingsemotional support animals and
service animals.
But yes, you are correct thatif you have these restrictions
that say, hey, you can't, youknow you're a tenant and you
can't have a pet, prepareyourself when the tenant shows
up with their dog, there's agood chance.
(13:55):
If you try to pursueenforcement action against the
tenant and the owner for thisviolation, there's a decent
chance.
Their response is going to beto assert that the dog is an
emotional support animal, whichthen, if they check the boxes,
triggers certain state andfederal laws which may result in
the association having to allowfor a reasonable accommodation
(14:18):
of that pet restriction.
So it's a challenging situation.
So it is, it's a challengingsituation.
You know.
I say this.
We all know there aresituations that are no brainers,
where you know we need to bemindful of folks with
disabilities and emotionalsupport animals and service
animals.
They play a very important role.
(14:40):
Right, the problem?
Right, the problem and I thinkyou would probably agree with me
on this is sometimes there arefolks that appear to be abusing
the system and that's where thechallenges come in and, candidly
, that's where you need legalrepresentation to help you flush
through what's a legitimateemotional support animal, a
(15:01):
legitimate disability claim,versus something that is not
legitimate, maybe was purchasedon the internet for 20 bucks.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
I'll tell you.
We will put links to Joanne'stwo episodes in the show notes
for this episode, because shedoes cover that.
And when does this come tolight?
It typically comes to lightwhen the potential tenant is
filling out his or herapplication, right, and it says
do you have pets, do you have aservice animal or emotional
(15:28):
support animal?
So we will add those links.
I want to throw you a littlebit of a curveball.
Okay, you ready.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
I'm ready.
I'm a big baseball fan and I'mmissing the baseball season, so
please throw me a curveball.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
So can tenants have guests?
Let's say we don't have a leaseaddendum, okay, and we talk
about tenants rights to use theunit, parking space, the
amenities, the same as the owner, but does the tenant have a
right to have guests, andincluding overnight guests?
If they're, let's say they gohiking over the summer for a
(16:01):
two-week vacation.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Well, the short answer is, in general, they do
have the rights to have guestsright.
But the more specific answercan be like with your fact
pattern, there can belimitations put on the guests
that tenants can have right, andone of the things we do a lot
of work with is rewritinggoverning documents and you can
(16:23):
put in.
You know we have a prettyextensive section on guest
rights and when they're allowedand what the restrictions are
and if they're overnight and dothey need approval and all of
this you know.
Some communities say to me likewhen I do a document rewrite
project as a little side note, alot of communities out there
should consider a documentrewrite project because the way
(16:45):
the laws are changing and withall of these issues that are
covered by your great podcast, Imean there's so much here and
if communities aren't takingadvantage of some of the
opportunities afforded to themin the law, they're missing out.
And so guest use rights is oneof those areas that are
typically never covered in yourboilerplate developer, attorney
(17:09):
drafted documents.
But we can really hone in onthem, and so when I provide the
first draft of rewrittendocuments for my clients, I warn
them in advance.
I say I'm going to give you awhole section that's going to be
very detailed on guest rights.
I'm going to give you a wholesection that's going to be very
detailed on guest rights.
You may read it and say youdon't like it and we can take it
out.
And you may read it and you maysay this is the best thing I've
(17:31):
ever seen and we can go with it.
So it covers all of thesenuances in terms of guests.
Because look, for example, withyour fact pattern, you don't
want, particularly in the AirbnbVrbo age, you don't want these
tenants, these rental situationsto just turn into never-ending
(17:55):
spring break parties.
Right, and that can happen.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Walling door of people in the community.
I think there's an even morenegative connotation when it
comes to unscreened guests,because at least with the
tenants and I want to talk toyou about that next there's some
form of screening going on, butin many of these documents, to
your point, unless you'verecently updated them no
developer documents I've everseen have had a thorough
(18:20):
screening provision for justguests, whether it's the owner's
guest or tenant's guest orwhoever.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
No, for sure, For sure.
And you know I've I work out ofthe Naples and the Sarasota
offices and you know my I've gotteenage daughters and you know,
on more than one occasionthey've said to me you know I'd
say where are you, where are yougoing?
Oh, we're going to a party onSiesta Beach.
Okay, what's the deal?
Well, somebody rented a condothere and half the high school
is going to show up and go tothe party at the condo right on
(18:54):
the beach.
It's going to be incredible.
And the whole time I'm thinkingwait a second, is that one of
my clients?
Because if it's one of myclients, I'm going to get a call
on Monday about this.
But these are the seriousconcerns that need to be
considered, because you do notwant spring break happening in
your communities every weekend.
You know four or five monthsout of the year and it can
(19:15):
happen.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
You talked about document rewrite projects.
I know you do a lot of those,david, and yeah, if you haven't
looked at your documents with akeen eye over the last couple of
years, you're way overdue.
That being said, when you dothose document rewrites whether
it's a look it's a little morecompelling in a multifamily
(19:35):
building as opposed to a singlefamily homeowners association,
but even those folks are veryconcerned about rentals.
What does your ideal screeningamendment look like when you're
doing the rewrite project?
Talk to us a lot about thevarious amendments that the
board can consider if renting issomething that's either
(19:58):
currently a problem in theircommunity or a potential future
problem.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Right?
No, I'm happy to go into thatand let me set the scene for
this discussion.
On more than one occasion I'vehad a president call me,
typically in the condo setting,but sometimes in the HOA setting
.
The condo president calls meand says okay, we are freaking
out here.
We just realized that theperson that purchased unit 108,
(20:28):
right by the swimming pool, is asexual predator, and what are
we going to do about it?
We've got to get this personout of there.
And I've had occasions.
There've been times, where I'vesaid wait just a minute, and I
look at the governing documentsand I say, all right, we've got
a plan, you've got restrictionsand there's things we can do.
(20:48):
On other occasions, though,I've had a situation where I've
had to tell the client you don'thave any restrictions or
authority to approve sales, andsometimes they don't have the
ability to approve leases andthings like that, and so that
may be an extreme example, butit's a real world example that
has come up, so this is why thisis important.
(21:10):
Now, before I get into some ofthe nuances of what I like to
see with these documents, Ialways like to start out by
saying remember that if you'regoing to put in these
administrative obligations onyour community, like receiving
applications, reviewing themyou've got to actually do it
right.
You can't just put in all theserestrictions and then not
(21:31):
actually have anybody do theadministrative work, and if your
community, particularly maybe asmaller community, maybe you
don't have an in-house manager,you've got to make sure that you
can actually do the work.
Now, setting aside theadministrative work that goes
along with it, I like to seeclear-cut language that says you
must submit an application, theapplication, put in a deadline
(21:54):
by which the application must bereceived before the proposed
closing date.
I like to make it clear-cut thatwe're going to run a criminal
background check and in yourdocuments you want to have very
objective criteria addressingwhat type of criminal background
offenses and convictions willempower the association to deny
(22:21):
an application.
And just going through a couplehere of Becker we're constantly
revising and updating our formsso that we have the strongest
ability to win these cases ifthey're litigated.
Just going through a recent docrewrite project that I went
through that I prepared, hereare some of the criteria A
(22:42):
capital first or second degreefelony involving violence to
persons within the past 10 years.
A first or second degree felonyinvolving illegal drugs within
the past 10 years.
Any drug offense.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
David, I'm sorry, let me stop you.
You're talking about aconviction, not an arrest.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Yep for sure.
We're talking about convictions.
So the opening paragraph saysthe person seeking approval has
been convicted or pled nocontest to or has been released
from prosecutor.
So I can tell you all convictedon this date of this offense
and it directly syncs up withwhat our documents say and, as a
result, we're rejecting yourapplication.
Let's just keep it real here Amisdemeanor smoking marijuana
(23:58):
offense from 28 years ago,that's not going to be part of
the criteria that can be used todeny an application.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Agreed, agreed.
What about credit score?
Remember this particularepisode, and we're doing kind of
a crossover between sales andleases because the denial for
good cause language you justlaid out.
We typically use that for bothscreenings, whether we're
screening potential purchasersor potential lessees.
But let's step with renters fora second.
(24:28):
Do we care what the renter'scredit score is if it's the
owner who owes assessments tothe association?
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Well, the credit score is an interesting topic.
You'll get different answers tothis question depending on
which lawyer you talk to as astarting point.
So all I can do is give you myanswer.
But my answer is, for a renterno, we don't care.
And the reason we don't care istwofold.
Number one the buck stops withthe owner to pay the assessments
(24:57):
.
It is the owner who has theobligation.
Now the second reason for myanswer and we could debate it.
I'd be curious to see if you aresimilar thinking to me, or
maybe you have some alternativeviews on this.
The other reason is we have theability to seek to collect the
rent to pay for the unpaidassessment, right?
(25:17):
So I have heard lawyers arguewell, wait a minute, it's that
authority embedded in thecommunity association statutes
to go grab the rent.
That might be one of thereasons we care about the credit
score, but in general, to me,credit score is look, there are
things that I think are propercriteria to be focused on when
(25:40):
it comes to evaluating a tenant.
I personally don't think creditscore makes the cut.
How about you?
Speaker 1 (25:46):
I agree.
I think the hey, if the tenantcan't pay the rent, that's going
to impact the owner, and if theowner is an investor owner
which we're going to talk aboutin a second maybe they're
depending on that.
They don't want to lay out themoney.
You know that's going to impacttheir ability to pay us.
I think that's a moreattenuated argument to make.
(26:09):
It does bring up another issuefor me, though, that I want to
ask you about.
Are you surprised that moreowners whether it's an
individual who's just rentingthey're not really an investor
owner, but they're renting rightnow but particularly investor
owners that they're not runningtheir own background checks?
David, for the most partthey're just relying on the
(26:32):
association screening, and a lotof them really don't run their
own background checks.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Yeah, I am very surprised, I know, with my house
, uh, you know, I know with myhouse, um, I've invested a
ridiculous amount of money andin this house and if I ever end
up, uh, buying another house andrenting out my current house,
who knows whether I'll be ableto do that someday?
Um, if I ever find myself in aposition where I'm going to be
(26:59):
renting this property that I'veinvested so much money in, you
better believe I'm going to wantto know all I can about these
renters, because if I get somefolks in there that maybe are
not the type I want in there,yeah, it can be a problem and
they can damage your propertyand leave you high and dry and
(27:22):
then get in the car and drive toCanada and there's really no
recourse.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
I want to ask you have you ever considered an
amendment, david, that wouldrequire owners to conduct their
own background screening checksin addition to the association
screening?
Speaker 2 (27:36):
You know, I've never considered that, but I think
that's, you know, not a bad idea.
One argument might be do youreally need two?
It could be all people.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
but this way at least they know who they're bringing
into the community and they, youknow we've done away with their
plausible deniability.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Right?
No for sure, I mean.
I think that that is if thatamendment is written properly to
impose that type of restriction.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
I think that works.
You talked a minute ago.
If you are ever in thesituation where you decide to to
rent out your lavish currenthome, um 2200 square feet.
Yeah, palatial estate yeah therecould be your state.
Um, there could be some damagethat a tenant does, and tenants
(28:29):
not only have the ability to dodamage inside the unit, but
damage to the common areas.
Let's talk about insurance alittle bit and security deposits
.
So how important is it thatowners who routinely rent out
and we're talking about inCotabiniums, let's say in a
multifamily building, that theyhave interior coverage?
Speaker 2 (28:50):
I think it's important for a lot of reasons.
I'm always amazed at the number, particularly in the condo
setting.
In the HOA setting, I find it'spretty common to have the
insurance you need.
It's pretty common to have theinsurance you need, but in the
condo setting, a lot of ownersdon't have the insurance
(29:11):
protection.
The most common version is theHO6 insurance policy and that
can provide you coverage.
I'm also candidly shocked bythe number of people that don't
really know who their insuranceagent is or don't really
communicate with them.
Your insurance agent is.
You know, when you're makingyour holiday card list, your
(29:32):
insurance agent needs to be highon the list, just below your
lawyer, in terms of who you keepin touch with, because you need
to ask them these questions.
Hey, I'm looking to rent myproperty out.
Let's cover all of the thingsthat could happen.
What happens if the?
You know what happens if, forexample, some condominiums have
(29:53):
situations where there's, like,a swimming pool dedicated to the
unit you know that's lesscommon type of condominium
association but maybe a jacuzzior things like that.
You know what happens ifsomeone's injured or God forbid
killed in my property during therental.
What's going to happen?
What happens if they cause awater leak.
What type of coverage is there?
(30:15):
So yeah, insurance coveragewhen you're renting is
critically important.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
I like to tie proof of the HO6 coverage with the
association added as anadditional insured as one of the
reasons to potentially deny ifthey don't provide that.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
It's a good point.
Yeah, having that extra layerof protection for the
association is critical.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
So in Florida again, we've got people listening all
over.
But in Florida associations areentitled to take a security
deposit for common area damagecaused by renters up to one
equal to one month's rent.
I don't know if you get askedthis question.
I get asked.
This just came up recently.
The renter had been violatingcertain restrictions and rules.
(30:58):
There were fines assessed.
The association wanted tomaintain a portion of that
security deposit to cover thefines.
My answer is no that thesecurity deposit is there to
cover damage.
If you read the statute again,we're talking very Florida
specific right now.
But what are your thoughts onthe use, the application of that
(31:19):
security deposit?
Speaker 2 (31:21):
I think so I predict your rationale.
There was the statutesbasically covers what you can
use it for, and fines were notincluded.
Presumably the legislatureopted not to add that in.
Had they wanted to include thatauthority, presumably they
would have added it.
So no, I agree with you.
(31:41):
I for sure agree with thatconclusion.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
All these episodes because they twist and turn.
I just thought of another thingI want to ask you about
security deposits and that'syour client David has been
taking by the way, I'm makingthis up If it's your client
listening, we're not referencingparticularly Client has been
taking these common areasecurity deposits for years.
They never return them.
Tenants move out, they don'task for them.
(32:07):
They've accumulated.
What do they do with them?
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Yeah, that's an interesting question.
I would definitely want to getmore information about exactly
time and never acted on, youknow, needed to dip into those
security deposits.
So I mean I think I haven't hadthat specific fact pattern come
(32:33):
up, but I'm predicting theanswer is going to be return it
to the owner.
But you tell me, have you hadthat come up and what was your
analysis?
Speaker 1 (32:41):
I should know that these scenarios I'm giving you
are so different on the eastcoast of Florida as opposed to
the west coast of Florida,because we do have things come
up all the time in southeastFlorida.
I think it's a sheet.
Am I pronouncing that correctlyto the state?
I think you probably have toturn the funds over to the state
(33:02):
after making a good faitheffort to give it back to
whoever gave you the deposit,whether it was the owner or the
tenant directly.
But this is into housekeepingissues, right?
If you're self-managed, makesure that you're keeping on top
of these things.
If you're professionallymanaged, there's probably,
hopefully, a policy in place todeal with the security deposits.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Right, gotcha, yeah, I think that you would.
You definitely want to stay ontop of that.
I mean, look, since wereferenced my daughters earlier,
you know I always tell themrule one know where your money
is.
Okay.
So that's the same rule for ourclients Know where your money
is and keep a close watch onyour money, because if years
have gone by and these securitydeposits have just built up, it
can cause all sorts of headachesand, like you mentioned, the
(33:52):
law is vast.
It's incredible just how vastthe laws are, particularly in
the state of Florida,particularly on community
association issues, and if youallow something like that to
build up, there could be allsorts of legal implications and
for the most part, you want tojust try your best to avoid that
(34:14):
.
So keep track of your money andif you need to return it to
somebody, return it to thatsomebody.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
You're so diplomatic, you refer to our Florida laws,
our Florida shared ownershipstatutes as vast I call them
bloated and virtuallyincomprehensible.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
So very much I'm often saying to my clients.
Let me preface this by sayingdon't shoot the lawyer, right?
Because it is completelyridiculous how intricate some of
these statutes have gotten.
How intricate some of thesestatutes have gotten, but look,
(34:49):
it is what it is.
We make our living interpretingthem, so it is a challenge.
And look, every year thelegislature meets in Florida and
every year these statuteschange.
So I'm licensed in Texas andlast I checked.
So you know I'm licensed inTexas and last I checked, I
don't think Texas like atwo-page statute Nice.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Yeah, nice exactly, Although it probably would mean
less work for-.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
It probably would.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
With a two-page statute.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Probably good for our golf game, though, because we'd
be golfing every afternoon at 4o'clock instead of working.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Well, some of us golf like you.
Some of us just live on a golfcourse and heckle the golfers
some of the golf that go past.
I would never heckle you, david.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
And I appreciate that .
I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
So, like you, like me , like our peers and colleagues,
we've all been doing thesewebinars.
I did one right before I hoppedon this podcast episode talking
about the new safety laws inFlorida, tied to the inspections
, the engineering inspectionsand then, of course, the reserve
funding.
I think some of the frustrationthat a lot of communities are
(36:14):
experiencing right now, inaddition to paying for all this
stuff, is that in communitieswhere they do have a significant
percentage of renters inmultifamily buildings, they're
finding access control problems.
So they've got renters who, ifthey're doing large concrete
restoration or painting andwaterproofing or roofing
projects, where a renter may say, hey, I'm not letting you in.
(36:36):
I paid for a year for this unit, okay, I want to have access to
that balcony.
Maybe it has to be shut offbecause they are doing concrete
restoration on the balcony, butit's hard to explain that to a
renter, particularly if the unitowner, slash landlord, has not
done a good job preparing his orher tenant for a series of
(37:00):
upcoming maintenance and repairprojects.
Have you run into that as well?
Speaker 2 (37:05):
series of upcoming maintenance and repair projects.
Have you run into that as well?
Yes, it's a big problem.
It's a big problem,particularly with our aging
buildings, with all this workthat's needed to be done.
Yeah, it is a big problem.
How do you deal with it?
Number one the law is on yourside, right?
I mean, you have the right toperform this maintenance, the
repair, the reconstruction.
(37:25):
You have the right to do that,and owners and tenants can't
prohibit you from doing that,from doing that work.
But there are best practicesand recommended steps that need
to be followed.
Okay, let's go through some ofthose.
Disclosure transparency, advancenotice right, that's the name
of the game.
Disclosure transparency,advance notice right, that's the
(37:46):
name of the game.
As much lead time as you cangive to your community to let
them know this big ticketproject's coming up.
This is what's happening.
We're going to continue to giveyou updates and developments.
It's critical.
You would hope the owners thenconvey that information to the
tenants, but that doesn't alwayshappen.
And so, yeah, it is a shame,particularly in like a condo
(38:07):
that's waterfront, that allowsweekly rentals, where there's
all this work being done on theswimming pool and the family
from Iowa comes down forvacation and book their condo
unit through Airbnb or Vrbo andthen they find out they can't
use their swimming pool.
They're not going to be veryhappy, right?
(38:27):
So you would hope the ownersare going to convey this
information, but to me, thefirst step is make sure the
owners know this informationright.
Because there's no chance it'sgoing to get to the tenants if
the owners don't know.
And if the owners know withenough advance notice, they can
take whatever steps arenecessary and maybe even decide
(38:48):
not to rent their unit for themonth where the work's going to
be done.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Yeah, makes total sense.
Are there any particularconcerns, David, for 55 and over
communities when it comes torenters?
Speaker 2 (39:02):
There are those concerns With 55 and older.
There are certain requirements,that one of them being that 80%
of the units are occupied bysomebody 55 and older.
So right off the bat, you'vegot to make sure that that
census is adhered to when itcomes to renting, because you
(39:22):
certainly wouldn't want to loseyour 55 and older status.
I know, for those communitiesthat have that status, they
treasure it right, and so youdon't want to lose that.
So, yeah, there are manyreasons that they need to be
paying attention, but that 80%threshold is one of them, one of
the big ones.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
Themes we've had on the podcast.
There's been a coupleArtificial intelligence I ask
about.
I'm not going to ask you aboutthat because I don't even think
it has applicability here unlessrobots start applying to
purchase homes or prior to rent.
We're not there yet, not quiteyet.
But another thing has been theaffordable housing crisis.
(40:00):
This is reaching critical massin Florida and other states and
it's gotten worse.
It's gotten worse.
We've got more Fortune 500companies moving in, but I'm not
sure where all the servicepeople are going to live.
So this has been a questionthat I've asked a number of
guests.
I'm going to ask you about itin terms of Section 8 housing
(40:24):
vouchers, so I don't know howmuch again you're on Southwest
Florida.
It's a little bit.
It might be a little bitdifferent in your market, but I
know you know this topic.
What do you say to clients whoyou know when they are
confronted with a tenant who isthe beneficiary of Section 8
housing voucher, and maybe justtell our listeners what that is?
Speaker 2 (40:47):
Right.
So Section 8, it is a program,you know, a governmental program
, to help supplement the rentsof folks that are below a
certain economic line.
Right, you know folks that arefrom an economically challenged
(41:07):
group, an economicallychallenged group.
So the question becomes can you, can a community, as an example
, say nope, no, section eight,anywhere here and not in our
community?
Now I will tell you, inSouthwest Florida this topic
doesn't come up a whole lot.
(41:27):
To your earlier point where yousaid communities are changing, I
view myself as being on thefront line of a lot of things
and I've got a front row ticketto seeing how Florida is
changing.
And one example of that is, youknow, I represent a fair number
of mobile home communities andthey are calling me more and
(41:52):
more, saying we don't knowwhat's happening, we assume it's
the housing crisis, but we'vegot families moving in here for
the first time ever, like thishas always been.
You know, these are not 55 andolder.
They, you know, they're justmobile home communities and
they're the president calls meand says we have never had like
families, have never wanted anypart of this place, because it
(42:13):
was just very much, you know, tocater to the elderly folks.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
But it's more affordable, right, David?
So that's what's generating theinterest?
Speaker 2 (42:21):
That's what's generating.
The interest is in, you know,particularly in coastal areas,
and I know this is true forwhere you are on the east coast
of Florida.
But in the West Coast ofFlorida, where are you going to
live anymore?
It's a challenge, and so folksare turning to wherever they can
find housing that's affordable,and in some cases it's in some
(42:42):
of these mobile home parks,mobile home communities.
So you're seeing this housingcrisis come up in different ways
and so, candidly, I've haddiscussions with those groups
about hey, do you want toconsider certain types of
restrictions?
Not that we don't all lovefamilies, but a lot of folks
didn't buy into these mobilehome parks with the thinking
(43:03):
that they're going to be living,you know, in this kind of
family environment.
But back to your question.
You know, could you, knowingthat again, we talked about sort
of the negative connotation forrenters.
Some in Florida, some boardmembers, have a negative
connotation when it comes toSection 8 housing.
And let's just cut right to thechase.
(43:23):
The thought is, if you havefolks with Section 8 housing
supplementation, if word spreadsaround that your community has
these folks, it may have anegative impact, or be perceived
to have a negative impact, onproperty values.
Now let me clarify, since thisis a podcast, what I just stated
(43:45):
is not Dave Muller's opinion onthe subject.
I'm telling you what you hearfrom folks who have these
concerns.
So, in terms of just flat outdenying the rights of folks with
Section 8 housing to livesomeplace, you have to be
particularly concerned about howthat might be perceived and
(44:09):
might be an allegation of aviolation of the Fair Housing
Act right, which, again, not toplug.
I'm sure you got into that indepth with your podcast with
Joanne Burnett from our firm whospecializes in this area, but
that would be a real concern ofmine.
There's a legal concept calleddisparate impact right, where
restrictions cannot have adisparate impact on certain
(44:32):
groups that are protected bystate and federal law.
And if you adopt a restrictionthat says no Section 8, you
might find yourself with anallegation that that restriction
has a disparate impact on someof these protected groups.
So you've got to be verycareful before you go there In
your practice.
Donna, have you had this comeup and how does it play out for
you?
Speaker 1 (44:52):
Well, we have had it come up, and you mentioned a few
minutes ago about in Florida,how associations have the right
to demand rent from tenants inunits where the owner is
delinquent and not payingassessments to the association.
In those cases I think Section8 vouchers are actually very
beneficial because you can go tothe government, the local guy,
(45:13):
and say here you go, we'redemanding that you turn over
those funds directly to theassociation.
So look, I think there is anegative connotation about it.
But I absolutely agree that youcannot make this decision
without consulting withexperienced legal counsel and
you know what there could be asilver lining to it as well.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
Could be Money.
Is money right Whether it'scoming directly from someone's
pocket?
Speaker 1 (45:43):
And how often do you get it from the government right
?
Speaker 2 (45:46):
You don't.
You don't get it from thegovernment that often.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
They're usually taking it.
They're usually taking it,they're usually not giving it.
Um, I can't let you wrap upwithout talking about what you,
your family, your friends andour peers and colleagues in
southwest florida haveexperienced this hurricane
season with helene, with milton.
(46:09):
Um, I mean, it's just been.
It's been a lot.
And I say this I've been onthis coast and for this cycle
we've been spared.
But can you tell us what you'vebeen coping with over there and
what you're seeing with yourassociations?
Speaker 2 (46:24):
Yeah, it's a tragedy on so many fronts.
Now I will say this Certainareas of the West Coast of
Florida got hammered really hard.
Some of them got hammered twice, by Helene and by Milton, and I
think particularly with Miltonwe were expecting the scope of
devastation to be much morefar-reaching than it ended up
(46:47):
being, but for those folks thatare in the areas that were hit
hard, it's devastating.
Just to give you horror stories, I have clients that were just
on the cusp of restoring,finishing the restoration work
from Ian, and then Milton orHelene comes along and
(47:09):
redistributes a couple of feetof the Gulf of Mexico and
they're just reconstructedcommunities.
Um, those communities then dropsometimes hundreds of thousands
of dollars in remediation workto pull out the wet stuff, the
wet, soon to be moldy stuff fromHelene.
(47:29):
Uh, as soon as the check wasthen cut to the remediation
company, three days later morefeet of the Gulf of Mexico
redistributed back into thecommunities with Milton.
And look, I've had all sorts ofvery challenging conversations
with clients.
You know, a couple ofcommunities are just almost
(47:50):
ready to wave the white flag,which is a whole, nother
interesting podcast that wecould have.
You know, a couple ofcommunities are just almost
ready to wave the white flag,which is a whole, nother
interesting podcast that wecould have.
But yeah, it's been devastatingand you know particularly the
Minnesota Key area.
You know that portion ofnorthern part of Lee County,
charlotte County, southernSarasota County and then of
course part of Lee County,charlotte County, southern
(48:11):
Sarasota County and then, and ofcourse with Helene you know,
downtown Sarasota was hit prettyhard.
I mean, it's it's kind ofshocking with Helene how far
inland the water came intodowntown Sarasota.
You know, again, ian was adifferent beast than Helene and
Milton, but all three have justbeen challenging and you all on
(48:36):
the East Coast.
I don't know if you saw thegraphic, but I think, like the
last, I don't know 15 hurricanes.
It's even more than that.
I think the last 15 hurricanesto hit the state of Florida
named hurricanes.
I think they're all on the WestCoast and Panhandle.
I don't think you on the EastCoast have had any of them.
I forget exactly what thenumber is, but yeah, I don't
want anybody to get hit by thesethings.
Speaker 1 (48:56):
Where do you think the resilience comes from,
though, to keep going, becauseyou're right, the West Coast has
gotten hammered over the lastfew years.
Speaker 2 (49:06):
I think the short answer is at least for six
months out of the year.
There's no better place in theworld to live than Southwest
Florida, so I think that's wherethe resiliency comes in.
Speaker 1 (49:17):
Listen, I'm talking to the right person, because the
last thing I want to ask youbefore I let you go is you know?
I've known you a long time,david, but I go way back yeah.
I perused your firm bio and Inoticed that it says you are,
you're into endurance sports.
So if anybody understandsresilience, which endurance
sports?
What does that mean?
What do you?
Are you rock?
Are you mountain climbing?
(49:38):
What are you doing?
Speaker 2 (49:40):
So I'm currently training for my seventh marathon
.
I'm doing the Miami marathon inFebruary, so I'm training for
that and I've I've done a fairshare of triathlons in my day.
I did an Ironman once and whoknows, there might be another
Ironman in my future.
So, yeah, I just find that agood sweat is the best therapy
(50:01):
there is.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
You're talking to somebody who does yoga and
Pilates.
I guess that doesn't count,does it?
Speaker 2 (50:07):
My wife does Pilates, so I can tell you that I
couldn't last in a Pilates classfor three minutes, so I have
mad respect for people who doPilates.
Speaker 1 (50:16):
Your bar is hard, David.
Thanks so much for joining us.
Speaker 2 (50:20):
I appreciate the opportunity and it was great to
talk to everybody today.
Speaker 1 (50:25):
Thank you for joining us today.
Don't forget to follow and rateus on your favorite podcast
platform, or visittakeittotheboardcom for more
ways to connect.
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