The Truth About Service Animals and ESAs-- Real vs. Fake

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hi everyone, I'm attorney Donna DiMaggio-Berger
and this is Take it to the Boardwhere we speak condo and HOA.
The topic of emotional supportand service animals remains top
of mind for many people livingin communities which restrict
pets.
These boards and residentsoften want to know what kind of
training is required forassistance animals, how much

(00:23):
that training costs, and how totell the difference between a
legitimate service and supportanimal and a fake one.
There are millions of peoplewho depend on highly trained
animals to help them engage inmajor life activities despite
having challenging disabilities.
On the flip side, there arepeople who own pets but purchase
homes in pet-restrictedcommunities either, oblivious to
the existence of those petrestrictions, are hopeful that

(00:49):
they can turn their pet into apassable assistance animal.
My guest today is Terry Harris,who founded West Tennessee
Canine Training, a top-rated dogtraining facility in West
Tennessee in 2013.
Terry started West TennesseeCanine as a home-based business
and then transitioned into a4,000 square foot facility,
which just shows that businessis booming.
Terry and I are going to debunksome of the myths out there

(01:11):
about what constitutes anassistance animal from a
training perspective, what suchtraining entails, including
costs and methodology, andwhether certain breeds are more
receptive to training thanothers.
So with that, terry, welcome toTake it to the Board.

Speaker 2 (01:25):
It is good to be here with you and thank you for
having me.

Speaker 1 (01:27):
So I'm wondering if we can start out by explaining
the difference between serviceanimals and emotional support
animals in the context oftraining.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
Absolutely so a lot of what I'm going to talk about
here.
I'm just referring to the ADAguidelines.
That's our rules.
It's the only rules we have.
Also, the Fair Housing Act hasa section that goes along with
them.
So your question was servicedogs versus emotional support
dogs.
So a service dog, the personhas to have a disability,
something that requires aservice dog, something that
requires them to do and toassist them with life, to be a

(01:59):
medical provider, a medical toolfor that dog right.
Emotional support animals theADA does not recognize as
service dogs.
There are psychiatric serviceanimals that fall into the
service dog category, butemotional support dogs all
through the ADA guidelines.
You can go online and just lookup ADAgov All the guidelines
there.
Frequently asked questionsemotional support dogs are not

(02:21):
service dogs.

Speaker 1 (02:21):
So emotional support animals.
The individual still needs toprove that they have a
disability, that they haveimpaired major life activities,
which is sleeping, socializing,working, eating, things like
that.
But they don't require thetraining.
Let's start with the serviceanimals, though Can you talk
about the different type ofdisabilities that animals?

(02:43):
Because under the ADA it's twotypes of animals miniature
horses and dogs.
Tell me about the type oftraining for the type of
disabilities they can treat?

Speaker 2 (02:52):
Gotcha.
So it's really unlimited.
I have not found a limitationon what dogs can be trained to
do.
I've been training dogs for 30years and the minute I think
there's something like, oh,that's impossible, then we try
to figure it out and we usuallydo right.
So dogs are amazing.
They run a gamut of abilities.
When you have a service dog like, say, a stability dog, a dog

(03:13):
trained to hold you up if youlose your balance, is a lot
different than training, say, adiabetic alert dog, time and
training is different, the costis different because it's
specialized.
So you have a dog that holdsyou up and you teach the dog to
support, you teach the dog tolean, all that stuff, whereas a
diabetic alert dog like youstart them at eight weeks old
and you start with the saliva ofthe person that when their

(03:35):
blood sugar is low, and thenyou're working them for two
years, right, at least two years, um, and and even longer in
some cases.
So, depending on what the doghas to do, the risk of life
involved.
So a person that loses theirbalance and falls is less likely
to have a serious injury thansomeone who goes into a diabetic

(03:55):
shock, diabetic coma, and coulddie.
See what I'm saying, and so,with every skill these dogs are
learning, we have to look atlike okay, is this a
life-threatening thing?
Is this a thing?
Just to help you navigate alittle bit of my background I
grew up with a mom that hadfolia.
She was disabled, she worebraces, and that's kind of how I
started messing with dogs inthat context.

(04:16):
Because, like a dog, what ifour dogs got in front of her?
She would fall over, right.
But when she fell over shecouldn't get up by herself.
So this big old dog, we had tocome over to her and she would
climb on him and stand up.
I've just always been good atthat.
Oh, wow, ok.
So as a kid I started outworking with horses, rodents,

(04:36):
birds.
I've just always loved traininganimals, seeing what I could get
them to do, and so I just Ijust progressed into it my whole
life.
I just something I'm good atright Now.
When you're teaching a dog todo a specific task, when they
perform in your home, that's onething, but can they perform in
public, around distractions?
There's so many factors that gointo this.
The dog gets halfway throughtraining and, just you know,

(04:59):
does everything great, exceptmaybe growls at people.
He can't do service to them.

Speaker 1 (05:03):
So I wanted to talk to you about that, because a lot
of people, myself included,have the perception of service
animals that they are notaggressive and that they don't
really engage with the generalpublic.
They are there, as you said,almost as a medical tool for
their disabled human, and whenI'm seeing true service animals
in the airport or in arestaurant, they're really not

(05:23):
interested in other people.

Speaker 2 (05:30):
Is that a correct perception?
Absolutely.
We teach them to ignoreeverything and we do that by
putting them in super busyenvironments and training them
in those environments.
But all of it's tuned up.
The reason you can't pet aservice dog.
We ask you not to not becausethe service dogs don't like to
be pet because they do.
Because every time they see ahuman now they're going to say,
oh, that affection, I want thatreward, and then it gets them

(05:51):
off of their job.
So, yes, a service dog shouldbe out of the way.
It should be tucked under achair or a table.
It should not interact with thepublic.
You know, and as you have youngservice dogs coming up like
you'll, you'll think they'resolid and you get in public.
And, uh, experience we had afew weeks ago with one of the
dogs.
We were one of the dogs we wereproofing um, we're in the
airport and the police officerwas driving those big hover
around I don't know what they'recalled and the dog was like, oh

(06:12):
my gosh, like we don't have oneof those at the facility, right
, it was a new component.
It hadn't seen you and, like youknow, it's big, the police
officer.
He's going, hey, puppy, and andyou know, to the dog that's a
big alien right.
And so the dog got a littledisruptive.
We took it to the side, calmedit down.
But then we use that.
We're saying, hey, mr officer,can we use you as a training
tool?
We start desensitizing the dogto that thing.

(06:34):
So your your question.
Dogs have to be calm and public.
They have to be under control.
That's the huge component.
You can have a service dog thatdoes great in your house, but
take them into public andthey're lunatics.
I would say one of the biggestrequests we get with service
dogs, even after they've gonethrough service dog training,
because a lot of times they'retrained out of town.
They come home and the peoplehave problems with them.

(06:56):
It's usually in public.
So we call it public accesstraining, sliding doors, just
weird things that you just can'ttrain for everything.
Public access is so importantbecause it sets the stage for
this service dog.
It's an example for whatservice dogs should be and then
when you see something outsideof that, you're like that's all.

Speaker 1 (07:13):
So that's interesting .
Is the training ongoing, terry?
In other words, I collect myservice dog.
Maybe you've trained this dogfor two years to detect seizures
.
I had an uncle that had aseizure dog.
Particularly important when hewas driving Dog would alert him.
He could pull off to the side.
But let's say he picks up thedog.
The dog has had extensivetraining but, as you say, out in
the field new conditions areencountered.

(07:36):
Would that person then reachout for additional training for
the service animal?

Speaker 2 (07:40):
Absolutely the training for these dogs.
It never ends.
You're always going to followthose brush ups because also, in
addition to the dog justgetting rusty, especially if
they're not in an environment, alot, or a new dynamic in the
environment that changes thingsthat it hasn't experienced
before.
Dogs are always going to reactto the things they don't
understand Right, and so if theydon't understand something they

(08:01):
only have their mouth to makeit go away, right.
So it's a growl, a bark, alunge, right?
Another component to that isdogs are trained, usually
service dogs, very young.
Occasionally we'll have a dogthat, just like, picks up on his
owner's diabetic needs, right,just starts to get it, but can't
be in public because it's alunatic.
So we do public access.
So that's a component too.
But when you have these youngdogs you're bringing through

(08:22):
training, putting all this timeinto, you know they're usually
out of our hands roughly by two.
They're not here every day.
Well, just as we age, dogs agethe same way.
So between zero and one the dogis puppyish, you know.
From one to two it's startingto develop hormones and by two
it's fully developed andsometimes you get some pushback.

(08:43):
So you may have problems thatyou did not have when the dog
was 18 months old.
But now you're starting toexperience.
When the dog is closer tomaturity and all that is hormone
.
It's just like a teenager.
It wants to buck.
The system wants to really showyou because I know it all, and
then we get the dog through that.
It's pretty simple.

Speaker 1 (09:00):
But then as the dog starts approaching four or five
years old, they start to go intocognitive decline as early as
four or five.

Speaker 2 (09:07):
Yeah, because if you do the math so four or five puts
them probably about 40 or 50years old in our age.
I'm just doing rough math.
You can do the dog math if youwant.
So, that's a fairly old dog andwe'll have dogs that have-.

Speaker 1 (09:18):
I'm not liking what you're saying about 40 or 50 and
humans being old.

Speaker 2 (09:24):
Me either about 40 or 50 in humans being old, me
either, um, you know, and noneof us, even as humans, admit to
our cognitive decline, but weknow we're forgetting things,
right, right, um, and don't havethe energy we did.
Well, dogs go through the samething.
So you have, may have a dogthat's going doing really great,
having a great training and anddoing its job, and then, about
four or five like it, may startto get grumpy toward people, may

(09:44):
start to to do things that ithasn't done before, and the dog
has started a cognitive decline.
It doesn't mean the dog'swashed up, it just means now we
have to do some training toaddress those things.
Also like humans, as dogs growand develop and different things
like if you've had a traumaticevent in your life that's given
you a panic attack, then you'releery of the situation.
If you go eat at a restaurantand that food makes you sick,

(10:07):
what's the likelihood you'regoing back to that restaurant,
right?
Well, dogs don't have thatoption.
So they go, say, to arestaurant and some little kid
steps on their paw or doessomething silly, or a tray of
something falls over andstartles them Every time they
walk in that restaurant.
Now that's going to come totheir head and they're going to
be different, and so lifechanges.
Life experience is alsorequirement training.

(10:29):
So it's never finished, ever,ever finished.

Speaker 1 (10:32):
You know the old saying that you can't teach an
old dog new tricks.
Is there ever a point where adog just can't be trained as a
service animal?
It's just too old.

Speaker 2 (10:40):
Absolutely.
And you have to look atperformance too mobility, size
of dog, all of that stuff.
Can a dog reasonably get in andout of a car?
And as far as age goes, youalso have to look at like to
train a service dog.
You're looking at about $20,000to $30,000, right?
So if you have a five orsix-year-old dog with a life
expectancy of 10 years, it'sgoing to take you two years to

(11:01):
train it.
Well, when you get the dog backyou only have a few years,
right, that's if it doesn't gointo excessive cognitive decline
.
So getting them young is is thegoal.
You can train.
We have trained some stabilitydogs that are a little older
because there's not a.
It's not very expensive, it'snot a huge process to them.
They just have to learn to docounter pressure.
But there's an age where theykind of age out.
It's harder to teach dogs thathave been through a lot of stuff

(11:24):
over time than as a dog whoyou're getting right out of the
gate, who knows nothing aboutnothing.
Because it's easier to build adog than it is to reprogram a
dog.

Speaker 1 (11:32):
So we've talked about a few disabilities We've talked
about.
You mentioned diabetes, Imentioned seizures, you
mentioned a stability dog,vision impairment, hearing
impairment, ptsd.
What other disabilities do youtrain for?

Speaker 2 (11:47):
We do train psychiatric service animals.
That would be PTSD type stuffto push you, push away, to
corner you, to use pressure.
I would say there's morecategories than types of
services.
The minute I say these are thethings we trained our service
dog for, something comes up LikeI'll tell you a new one that's
come up probably over the lastfive years is autism for

(12:09):
autistic kids, nonverbalautistic children.
That wasn't a thing five yearsago.
Like you didn't hear about it,it was happening.
My daughter, who runs mynational location.
She's a child psychologist whospecializes in nonverbal
autistic kids.
Inserting dogs into their lifechanges everything.
So that's a new one, but it'severy dog in that area is
different.
We have to look at how thechild responds to the dog.

(12:29):
There's no cookie cuttertraining for that.
I would say that's one of thenewest ones that we've had to
start developing things for.

Speaker 1 (12:36):
So you have started developing, Terry, training
protocols for service animals totreat not to treat, but to help
people with autism.
You've started that trainingprotocol, Absolutely so tell me
about that.
What would those dogs betrained to do?

Speaker 2 (12:50):
That depends on the need.
So we look at the need and soif you have a dog and also with
this autism, the kind of nuanceto it is, you're looking at how
the child responds.
Sometimes the dog just beingaround calms the child, that's
it.
He has autism.
You take him out to the grocerystore.
There's too much input, youknow it's too much stimulus and
they just like do this.

(13:12):
Well, the dog gives themsomething to focus on.
So the dog may not have to domuch of anything except be there
.
Get breeds that don't mind theirhair being pulled a little bit,
very calm dogs.
You don't want a dog that's toosmall.
But you're looking at theperson in front of you with any
service dog and saying what arethe main things that person
needs?
Sometimes, like I said, withautistic children, it's just

(13:34):
being around, being there, beingavailable, going to doctor's
appointments and having that dogsit beside them.
And they're all into the dogand they're hyper-focused on
that.
So the doctor can do anything.
And you wouldn't think like,well, what kind of training does
that require?
Well, more than you think,because the dog probably isn't
very comfortable being there.
But for the children and forautistic people we haven't got

(13:58):
any adults, it's all beenchildren.
You know, adding that dog, thatdistraction, that's something
to hyper on, that's not all ofthe inputs around them helps
them navigate life and helps theparents navigate life.

Speaker 1 (14:11):
That totally makes sense.
You mentioned a $20,000 to$30,000 price tag for some of
these service animals because ofthe amount of training that
goes into getting them ready tohelp their disabled humans, goes
into getting them ready to helpthe disabled, their disabled
humans.
Do you work with any charitiesthat?
Because I imagine there'splenty of disabled people out
there that do not have the fundsto acquire the dogs they need

(14:32):
Do you are there charities inthe private sector that step in
to help people?

Speaker 2 (14:36):
Sometimes you know every there's so many people
going to those charities that wetry not to.
It's awesome.
We try to use local businessesfundraisers.
We teach that.
We try not to sell.
So we try to use localbusinesses fundraisers.
We teach the clients how tofundraise.
And this is not like you writeme a big fat check.
It's over a couple of years andthe thing is is that there's
really no money in service dogs.
Honestly, if you're doing itproperly Like if you have a dog

(14:59):
halfway through let's say adiabetic alert dog and the
people come to you and they'relike, hey, we've had a rep.
We just can't do this.
There's no way that anyreputable service dog trainer
would send them on their way.
We keep training the dog.
So almost all programs havesome type of other income.
Our pet side pays the bills andour side for service animals.

(15:20):
We hope to break even.

Speaker 1 (15:22):
So a service animal who graduates from west
tennessee canine training, whatkind of certification do they
get?

Speaker 2 (15:29):
certifications don't exist.
We do the training the dogperforms, we can sign off.
I'll write letters to peoplelike hey, this dog has been
through training do they get acompletion certificate from you
or anything?
yeah, they can, but it doesn'tmean anything.
It means you know anything.
I can type my own up.
It means absolutely nothing andthat's the whole disconnect.

(15:49):
The ADA guidelines are there incase you need to sue someone.
There's case law there and thatcase law is always changing.
I haven't read it.
Who's been on the show twicebefore?
Who is an FHA expert here atthe firm?

Speaker 1 (15:57):
And she's she deals with this all the time.
But you're right, A lot ofpeople will print out those
certificates and they'll get.
Do the training vest?

(16:18):
That's a service animal.
Do you provide those?
We don't.
They don't have to have it.
But to your point though, Terry, because if it is, let's say
it's my service animal.
I'm in a restaurant.
I need this animal.
I don't want people coming upand treating it like a pet.
Is that perhaps the motivationfor people, for some people, to
put the service animal vest Inall?

Speaker 2 (16:38):
service dog people.
They use vests for that reason.
That is the only reason theyuse them.
They're not required, but itjust makes it easier for people
to identify a service dog.
You're not required to use atrainer to train your service
dog.
You're not required to have avest or any type of
identification with your servicedog.
Actually, ADA guidelines saythat the stuff you get online is
irrelevant, does not matter,means nothing, You're not

(16:59):
required to have a letter fromanyone saying that you have a
service dog.

Speaker 1 (17:02):
So at some point I don't know how it all works, but
we're going to have to figureout how to rein this in- Right,
because one of the things Istarted out talking about in the
introduction is there is noshortage of fake service animals
out there.
So, terry, when you're in theairport or in a restaurant and
you see an animal with a dog,with a service animal vest, and

(17:23):
it is not acting like a serviceanimal, what do you think?

Speaker 2 (17:25):
it's not a service and you know, in all all the
guidelines, read them, everyonethat talks to a part I'm looking
at apartments, churches, gymsthey can ask you to leave if
your dog is not under control.
They can say you have to goright or your dog has.
You can come here, your dog hasto go.
You know they have the right todo that.
Every business you go into,every apartment you go into, has
the right to say hey, that dogis disruptive and it can't be

(17:48):
here.
Dogs can't be sitting at thetable with you, you can't be
sitting in the booth, you can'tfeed them from the table, you
know.
Then you go into healthdepartment laws and rules and
whether it's a service dog ornot, these are the health
department rules.
You know, in our facility withall the dogs like we can't have

(18:10):
a whole bunch of service dogs inthere because we have training
dogs and so the people who haveservice dogs, they put them
outside the training area in akennel.

Speaker 1 (18:14):
That's what they say during.
You know, what's happening,though, terry, is that a lot of
the business owners are notaware of that or they've been
threatened by people, with theanimals saying no, you can't ask
me anything, you can't talk tome about this animal, leave me
alone.
Now, the business owners whoare a little more sophisticated
in this area know that.
Again, as you said, the animalneeds to be under control, it

(18:34):
needs to be acting in a mannerthat a service animal would be
acting, but in a lot of spaces,I see people who are really
afraid, and they know that thisreally isn't a true service
animal, but they're a littlefrightened because they've been
threatened of litigation orsomething else.
That's becoming more and moreof a problem and, as you said,
if we can just get a handle onit, A lot of people call the
police.

Speaker 2 (18:54):
They don't want to have my service up.
You know what the police say,what we have no control over,
that it's not what we do.
Right, you have to get anattorney, you have to do this
stuff.
This is not a law.
These aren't laws.
Like they're not a law, it's aguideline to follow and the
guidelines change based on whowon the last suit.
Right, and would you agree thatthe ADA guidelines are not laws

(19:14):
?
Well, they're guidelines, so ifthere is a suit, then the court
is going to take into accountwhat the guidelines say and
whether or not they werefollowed, but that in and of
themselves they're not Right andso that's just it.
They're a rule book for us totry to peaceably live with.
So say you have a service dog.
It's not a service dog, but youtake that dog to Starbucks with

(19:36):
you or any restaurant you walkin.
The dog has a vest on.
That dog goes under the table,lays down.
You eat your meal.
Nobody knows the dog is there.
You get up, leave the dog goeswith you.
Do you think anyone willquestion that service dog?

Speaker 1 (19:47):
I think usually not.

Speaker 2 (19:48):
No, that's the thing.
How is the dog behaving?
We went to a restaurant acouple of years ago and this
little fluffy dog on aretractable leash walked by us
and had feces stuck to itsbackside, got in a booth beside
us, got up in the booth with thepeople and I didn't say
anything.
I just asked to be moved toanother booth.

Speaker 1 (20:06):
But they did it, found out, ended up asking the
people to leave and there was abig commotion, right, but the
dog smelled like well, the dogsmelled like what it was
carrying around, but yeah, solike that was likely an
emotional support animal, whichis a completely different beast.
And I have seen pardon the pun,by the way, um, I have seen
more restaurants and businessespushing back with signage that

(20:28):
says we are only going to admitlegitimate service animals, not
emotional support animals, right, right.

Speaker 2 (20:34):
But, and you know you can't really ask.
But let me also tell you this Ihave a my other one passed.
I'm training a new age, sixmonth old.
His name is scoot and we callhim little dude, that ptsd.
And when I I take a dog with me, right, when somebody asks me
what that dog is for, I tellthem I don't say, well, you
can't ask that, right.
Anybody with a legitimatedisability growing up with a
mother who had one, a seriousone when people would come up

(20:57):
her kids would stare at herShe'd say come here, you want to
feel my brace, you know, toeducate people.
There's nobody with a seriousdisability or a legitimate
disability that is going to notbe happy to tell you what their
dog does, because they wantpeople to know what service dogs
are, how they look, how theyperform.
So the first indication thatsums up is I don't have to tell
you anything.

Speaker 1 (21:16):
So the defensiveness.

Speaker 2 (21:18):
And if I walk in my place with my dog, I don't
medically have to have my dogall the time If I walk into a
place, sometimes when you go ina restaurant and it's people
from like India or differentnationalities like they're
terrified of dog.
My former service dog was aDoberman not the best choice of
dog for a service dog.
It just happened to be what Ihad and needed at the time.

Speaker 1 (21:36):
I had one growing up.

Speaker 2 (21:37):
They're amazing dogs but you know people see them.
They're like, oh my gosh, aDoberman.
I could tell when I walked in.
Their eyes got giant and so Iwalked out, put them in the
kennel, air conditioned in thecar right it's running, and I
went and ate, you know, becauseI saw that it made them very
uncomfortable.
People with service dogs willabsolutely see that you're
uncomfortable and try toaccommodate, and then the

(21:58):
restaurants have to accommodateyou to a certain extent, but you
also have to accommodate themto a certain extent.

Speaker 1 (22:03):
Doing what you've done all these years.
I'm assuming you know a lotabout dog psychology, what they
like, what they don't like.
You've seen a behaviorist ofsorts.
I've always asked this questionfor the emotional support
animals, not the service animalsthat are there because they're
helping somebody, but theemotional support animals where
people are bringing themwherever they go to the movies

(22:24):
or the restaurant or this.
Do dogs really like beingdragged around everywhere like
that?

Speaker 2 (22:29):
if they're acclimated to it, they don't care.
Whatever you make part of adog's normal everyday life, it's
what they adapt, is theirs.
When we get a new client, wehave a this huge questionnaire
we give them where do you go?
What do you do?
What are your hobbies?
All of this stuff.
And if they're a movie buff,like, guess where we go with the
dog to the movies.
If they like going to sportsgames, guess where we go to the
with the dog to a sports gamefirst, right.

(22:51):
So the dog has been acclimatedto all this stuff, then the dog
is impartial.
They don't care.
But when you take a dog thathas not been experienced or
hasn't experienced much or beenbeen trained in that area, and
you take them to a newenvironment they don't
understand and that scares them,then you have the barking and
all of the stuff, right so you.
You have to train in the areasthat people are going to be the

(23:13):
dogs.
The dogs are different.
Some dogs are more confident.
We do get dogs that you knowthey do great with training but
they are not confident enough tonavigate like a sports game.
Sometimes people get twoservice dogs, one for the house,
one for out, and that way theycan get a rotation.

Speaker 1 (23:28):
As long as they're accustomed to it.
And so you answered my question, because I've always wondered
that when I'm looking at allthese different dogs, some look
very happy, some look miserable.
I had a boxer.
We had a boxer in our familyfor years, bachi and he would be
much happier at home on thecouch, yeah Than um bocce, and
he would be much happier at homeon the couch, yeah, than being
dragged out everywhere.

Speaker 2 (23:48):
And that's just the way it is.
We have one of my dogs, like westart as a private security
company.
She's my detection dog.
She'll find drugs and guns andpeople, right?
She doesn't like to go anywhere.
She doesn't like people.
She wants to be left alone.
Just leave me alone.
I want to go do my job.
Right?
We, when people come over, wedon't let her out in the house.

Speaker 1 (24:01):
She doesn't't care to be around people.

Speaker 2 (24:02):
Other dog wants to be around people all the time.
So a lot of it is the dog'spersonality or natural
inclination to what they'redrawn to, and that's what we
look for when we're choosing adog to train a service dog.
How confident is it?
How people-oriented, how doesit do with different
distractions in an area?

Speaker 1 (24:19):
Is there a gender difference, terry?
In other words, know femaleversus male dogs in terms of
their uh, in terms of theirpotential as a service animal?

Speaker 2 (24:29):
so technically no, but I'm going to tell you my
personal take.
Okay, the science behind thisis just trained dogs.
Boy dogs seem to want to pleaseyou more.
Female dogs are a little, canbe a little more abrasive oh boy
, you know our listeners, I cantell I don't know there's any
science behind that.
That is my personal observationI'm doing.

(24:49):
Thousands can be a little moreabrasive.
Oh boy, you know our listeners.
I can tell it right now.
I don't know if there's anyscience behind that.

Speaker 1 (24:55):
That is my personal observation.
I'm doing thousands of dogs,but the boys are also bigger
whiners.

Speaker 2 (24:59):
It's like men, right?
I love your take on this, terry, yeah, so that's just my
personal view.

Speaker 1 (25:01):
A female service animal, that animal would never
be bred Shouldn't be.

Speaker 2 (25:06):
People do it though.
They do Because they have agood, solid working dog and they
find another good solid workingdog and they try to make a
better dog.
It's not recommended, butpeople do it.

Speaker 1 (25:16):
I don't know if there's anything to advise
against it.

Speaker 2 (25:18):
I will say that I had a Doberman last year and she
was a working dog.
When she had her first litterof puppies I couldn't work her
anymore.
She had changed her.

Speaker 1 (25:30):
Like I can't explain how it changed her.
She was a mama now yeah lessconfidence.

Speaker 2 (25:33):
Like it was just weird, the hormones would change
and there it changed her howold was she at that point?
She was two and a half.
Oh, okay, and so she had justgot.

Speaker 1 (25:44):
So then you retired her as a service animal at that
point.

Speaker 2 (25:47):
She was a work.
We were a private securitycompany.
She was on a patrol dog, so shewasn't a service dog, but she
was a working dog.

Speaker 1 (25:53):
You know, I wanted to ask you that question because
the larger breeds I've had largebreeds.
I grew up with a Doberman, myhusband and our kids.
We had a Boxer.
We had the bigger breeds butthey have a shorter lifespan
than some of the smaller breeds.
So do you find that peoplegravitate more towards the
smaller breeds because they havea longer lifespan?

Speaker 2 (26:12):
Totally opposite.
They gravitate toward thebigger breeds.
So if we have a stability dog,for instance, people want to do
Great Danes and we do them.
We've done a lot of them, butyou know, at six they're done
Right, like they're done, uh,newfoundlands, all those large
breeds, uh, wolfhounds, and thenalso they're so difficult to
get in and out of places, right.

(26:34):
So if you have a, if you need astability dog, like you can't
get a mini doodle.
Mini doodle is not going tohold you up.
But if you need a diabeticalert dog, like a little mini
doodle that has a good drive,because they're you know.
If you don't know what doodlesare, it's like a Labradoodle,
golden Doodle.
They're a combination ofworking dogs, right, and so you
can get a little miniaturedoodle, just call them doodles.

(26:55):
It can be an amazing diabeticalert dog and it just fits in
your pocket.
Almost People get dogs and theywant to take them everywhere.
They talk about service dogs,but up to a certain size, and
I'm sure we'll talk about breedin a minute.
But up to a certain size, likeit.
Just it's hard for them toaccess places like how do you
put a great dane under a tableat a restaurant, right?
but if you're out on a farm,amazing maybe an amazing

(27:18):
mobility some people might havea great dane they train to do
stuff at home and a smaller dogthey take out.
You know you can have more thanone service and some people do
just the rest of the other dog.
They're truly depending on thatdog two things.
If you're working that dogevery day, likelihood of burnout
come also.
If you have one dog, then youhave no dogs, you have two dogs
and you have one dog.

(27:39):
If your dog something happensto it, hurts its foot, you can't
take it with you, like you justkind of stuck.
So a lot of people will train abackup dog.
Maybe the backup dog is not asgood, it doesn't really matter
why, but they'll train a backupdog just so they have something.
When this dog gets hurt or thisdog is out of the picture or
has to retire, they don't haveto start over again.

Speaker 1 (28:00):
That gets expensive, though based on this training,
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (28:05):
It is so expensive it's on the verge of
unreasonable.

Speaker 1 (28:08):
Well, let's talk about the housing choices,
because this is called Take itto the Board, and we've got a
lot of people living in highrise condos and homeowners
associations.
You mentioned the Great Dane.
I'm thinking that a condobuilding is not necessarily the
best housing choice when youhave to shuttle them back and
forth in narrow corridors andperhaps small elevators.

(28:28):
Do you think more people shouldtake their housing option into
account when they know they needto have a service animal?

Speaker 2 (28:36):
Oh, absolutely.
And what are the rules?
Just because you have a serviceanimal doesn't mean that the
rules don't apply to you.
They still apply to you.
Damages, are they being allowed?
Do they fit within the sizerequirements?
Do they fit within theinsurance guidelines?
So my wife and I had amanagement company for a lot of
years.
We managed about 200 homes anda 200 unit apartment complex.

(28:59):
Right, Our insurance would notlet us have Rottweilers, Pits,
Dobermans.
They eventually includedShepherds it's not my call,
right, we cannot have them there.
So you have a service dogthat's a Great Dane Like.
Where does that fall?
Our insurance says they willcancel us if we have these
breeds.

Speaker 1 (29:22):
Well, I can tell you from the legal perspective,
because we deal with this a lotIf the disabled person meets the
legal requirements, which theyhave a letter from a treating
medical provider defining themas having a disability which
impairs one or more major lifeactivities, and that the dog is
needed for these, then thehousing provider has to allow it
as long as it's reasonable.
It becomes unreasonable if thatanimal's displaying aggression

(29:47):
towards humans or other animals,if the owner's not, if they
don't have them under control,they're off leash or they're on
one of those retractable onesthe owner's not picking up after
them, the owner leaves them inthe unit all day and it's
barking, so at that point theaccommodation wouldn't be
reasonable.
I did want to ask you abouttrue service animals.
Do they ever display aggressiontowards humans or other animals

(30:09):
?

Speaker 2 (30:10):
Yes, because they're dogs.
So I'll give you a personalstory.
I had my dog in an airport, mydoorman, under the seats.
We were in a little corner,nobody could get to us.
He's asleep.
I'm sitting there reading.
I look up and this person'sgoing dog and moving toward me.
Look up and this person's going, no, and moving toward me, and
he opens his eyes and sees thisperson coming towards and lost
his mind.
Dog sleeping open, strangeperson oh, my gosh, my.

(30:32):
I've used their mouth to makethem go away.
Of course I said no when hestopped, but not before the
whole airport staring at us,right.
Then I asked security if Icould take him through an
outside door on the tarmac andcalm down, and he accommodated,
right, you know.
So yeah, they're still living,breathing creatures.

Speaker 1 (30:46):
What was that person trying to do?
Pet him.

Speaker 2 (30:50):
I don't know.
I don't even know how she sawthe dog, how I had it right Like
I don't know.
But dogs are still living,breathing, thinking creatures.
You startle them, they willbark at you.
They hear something they don'tunderstand.
They will bark service dog ornot?
So dogs are going to be dogsand it's up to the handler to
rein them in.
The dogs are standalone medicaldevices.

Speaker 1 (31:11):
Yeah and listen.
Dobermans in particular I knowthis from experience are
extremely protective of theirowners.
I mean, it's one of the reasonsour parents got them.
I grew up in a family of fourkids and Rocky, our Doberman,
was extremely protective ifanybody came up to us.

Speaker 2 (31:26):
Yeah, and you know not the best choice for a
service dog.

Speaker 1 (31:29):
Perhaps not.
Well, let's talk about breeds.
If, in your opinion, what are,can you give me the top three
breeds that you think make thebest service animals?

Speaker 2 (31:36):
Oh, gosh Retrievers usually do.
I'll go to breeds.
I'll go to types of dogs.
Retrievers because you can haveanomalies in any breed, right?
So you're talking working class, working working class breeds.
They have to have drive to work.
So a lot of people get pitsthat want service dogs like we
lovingly nickname them potatoesbecause they don't want to do
anything.
Right, there's no drive to workthere, not to mention because

(31:58):
it's a pit type breeder lookslike that.
Getting them into places, youget more pushback than any other
breed, right, it's just it'snot working.

Speaker 1 (32:07):
Um they have a bad.
They have bad pr terry and it's.

Speaker 2 (32:10):
I've never been bit by one.
I've been by more chihuahuasand german shepherds, and I
don't think I've ever been bitby ever.

Speaker 1 (32:15):
They just don't want to do anything.

Speaker 2 (32:16):
Um, there are exceptions to that, but not a
lot.
Uh, so you're the doodle breedsthat I have with the
labradoodles, golden doodles.
As long as they have a goodblood line and a good drive,
those have proven to be verygood, very good dogs.
There are a lot of upkeep andmaintenance.
So you know, breeds like germanshepherds, like they are, they
can be trained to be a good dog,good service dog.
However, they lean on thetendency of being reactive and

(32:40):
very particular.
Guardian dogs, right herdingdogs, don't make the best dogs
in public, you know so talkingabout, like the Spaniels and the
Beagles.
No, the Australian Shepherds,cattle dogs, oh okay, they're
smart.
We can get them to perform alot of tasks, but they don't.
They don't usually perform wellin public.
They don't like people messingwith them, right?
You know, I would say those aresome of the breeds that we like

(33:07):
the best, but we open the doorto any breed that'll work as
long as they have a drive towork.
That's what we're looking for.
Every breed has anomalies, likeyou say.
You know, these dogs makehorrible sort of songs and you
get one and you're like well,how come the rest of them aren't
like this?
And so it's really hard tonarrow it down to a specific
breed.

(33:27):
You just want to make sure youcan give them easy access in and
out of your car.
They're easy to carry around.
Somebody can assist you withthem if something happens to you
, right?
But I don't know that.
I would say there's a specificbreed.
We like the hunting breeds.
Um, just because they have thathunt drive and they want to
what are some of the dogs in thehunting category?
All your retrievers.
The doodles are technically inthe hunting category Diabetic

(33:50):
alert dogs.
Beagles make decent diabeticalert dogs, but you can't really
train them to do much else,right?
What about?

Speaker 1 (33:56):
Jack Russell Terriers .

Speaker 2 (33:57):
They're a ratter, so they're a hunting dog.
They would work if you got theright one, and you have to look
at the person too.
In their level of mobility.
What are they using the dog for?
And if the energy level of thatdog?
Those are high, high energydogs.

Speaker 1 (34:10):
Super high energy dogs.

Speaker 2 (34:16):
So if you're an active person that needs a
diabetic alert dog and you're onthe go all the time might be
the dog for you, but if you'rein a wheelchair rolling around
or you know very non-activelifestyle wouldn't be the dog,
lifestyle would be the dog.
So so, yes, your answer yourquestion.

Speaker 1 (34:27):
jack russell's make good dogs, as long as they fit
the element, fit the hand.
How important is theintelligence level of the breed?
For instance, you meant youkeep mentioning doodles and
poodles are known, I think, tohave very high intelligence
levels.
Then you've got something likethe shibu inu.
That, I think, is sometimespeople say they're a little too
intelligent, a little little toostubborn.
Does intelligence become a hugefactor in the potential to be a

(34:47):
service animal?

Speaker 2 (34:48):
Absolutely, because they have to be able to process
and retain what you've askedthem to do.
It's all reward-based.
So you're just saying, hey, dothis, you get something, do this
, you get something, then you doit.
Enough and they get it.
But if you have a dog that hasno drive or is just not smart,
like you say, when we get thosethey wash out.

Speaker 1 (35:09):
I didn't say that, terry, I would never accuse any
breed of being.
I don't want hate mail?

Speaker 2 (35:17):
I would never say that we get some that aren't so
smart, aren't so motivated towork, aren't so drive.
And also, on the opposite ofthat, you don't want a dog that
has incredible drive, like amalinois, you know, or a dutch
shepherd or something along thatlines, that is so driven to
work.
You can't get them to stopright, right, because then if
you're teaching them to getwater bottles out of the

(35:37):
refrigerator like you just havethe whole refrigerator in your
living room they just never stopright.
They're always like can I dothis?
Now?
There's like if you're in yourgoing, can I do this?
Can I do this?
Can I do this?
So you know, you're trying tofind that middle ground where
the dogs that you know areslower and not as bright and
then the dogs who are extremelyintelligent and super high drive
.
You disqualify those and try tofind something in the middle.

Speaker 1 (35:59):
Something in the middle.

Speaker 2 (36:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:01):
So, legally speaking, emotional support animals.
They don't require specifictraining, they just need to
provide a source of comfort totheir owners.
Well, I'm assuming you're goingto tell me those dogs still
need some level of training ifthey're going to be taken to the
pool or they're going to bewalking through a lobby or
they're going to be in anelevator.
So what do you recommend?

(36:22):
Because that's the biggerproblem, frankly, terry, in our
condos and our HOAs is theseemotional support animals that
don't need training.
Most of them have never beentrained.
They're just somebody's pet.
They've moved into a communitythat doesn't allow pets, so now
they have morphed into emotionalsupport animals Not saying
that's always the case, but wehave seen a fair amount of that

(36:42):
happening.
What kind of training do yourecommend to those folks so at
least they can have their animal?
Go out in public with them,walk down the hallway, get in an
elevator?

Speaker 2 (36:52):
So the number one thing that we're contacted about
are emotional support dogs, andwhat we teach them is public
access, and so we take them.
We do the same thing.
They're not trained for aspecific task and they're still
not a service dog when we getfinished, but we take them in
public and we get them used tobeing in public.
If a person has a pool in theirapartment, we take them to a

(37:15):
pool, and that public access isthe key to stopping people from
complaining right and keepingdogs in check.
A number of times I've been inan airport and you have to
unclip your service dog so thatit walks through the metal
detector, right, and we kind ofstand there and wait like who's
chasing this dog?
Right, and as soon as they takethat leash off, that dog's gone
right.
And so those are things thatdisqualify the dog as a service

(37:39):
dog.
The public access.
Immediately you'll know if thatdog is a service dog or not and
how the owners handle it.
But public access is the numberone thing we teach dogs and it
teaches them to ignore things.
It teaches them to just donothing, I would say for- Not
jump on people.

(38:00):
Just do nothing, right?
What is your job today, dog?
Your job is to do nothing, andthat's actually a command right,
just to turn the dog off, offswitch.
So no matter what's going onaround that dog, it doesn't even
look right because it is undercommand, no different than sit
or lay down.
The dog is under command to donothing.
You put a dog service dog undera table or support dog under

(38:23):
the table and you tell you know,tell them to down.
They should not move until youtell them to do something
different.
And that is the differencebetween knowing this is a
trained service dog or somebodywho's saying they have a service
dog.

Speaker 1 (38:37):
Or it's even just a trained ESA emotional support
animal.
Your point is so significant,though, terry, because I think
you're right.
I think what's driving a lot ofthe angst is the behavior right
.
Like you said, even if it was afake ESA, if it's a
well-behaved fake ESA, it'sgoing to probably draw less
attention and less hostility,because it's just sitting there,

(39:01):
as you said, doing nothing.

Speaker 2 (39:02):
Yeah, no, I don't know anybody that would say
that's a problem If you have anissue.
If you're an apartment, likethey know, you have this dog and
so you can be at the pool.
If you're a guest that comes in, there's going to be a little
more, I guess.
Yeah, you know.
So you're gonna have to clearthat with management first,
before that dog can come.
The process of clearing is veryunclean.

Speaker 1 (39:23):
So we've got people who don't want to pay for any
training.
Let's talk about just pets.
It's not an ESA, it's not aservice animal, it's just your
pet, and they don't want to payfor any sort of training.
They think they're going totrain this animal themselves.
What do you think the numberone mistake they make?
It's probably going to be notgetting them trained
professionally, but what do youthink the number one mistake
people make when they're tryingto train their own pets?

Speaker 2 (39:46):
That's a good one.
It's actually a pretty easy one.
You know everything we do atthe training center.
I have free online everythingWith YouTube.
There's no reason you can'ttrain your own dog.
The number one thing thatpeople miss when they're
training their own dogs is lackof structure, lack of schedule,
lack of rules.
You know, when you have aservice dog or a pet dog and

(40:08):
they're running your house likethere's no rules, there's no
consequence for your actions,right?
And when I say consequence, Idon't mean violence, I don't
mean anything like that.
But you know you absolutelycannot do this Having a dog on a
leash in your house.
You know, if you take the way,if you completely take away the
term dog training because we'rereally not training the dogs,
right, we are patterning thebehavior.

(40:28):
We're doing the same thing withdog over and over and over
again, until it becomes apattern behavior.
If you want to lose weight, youstart to.
If you change your behavior atonce, you'll stay on your diet
for a month.
If you gradually change it andstart to make it part of your
lifestyle, right, and createtime for it, then you will
create permanent change.
That's, that's what we're doingwith dogs.

(40:49):
That's what people miss out on.
They teach all the stuff thatthey never get the dog in a
structured environment wherethere are rules, where there is
a bedtime, there's a time youget up.
You know when you're new to myhouse, you're strapped to me and
I'm taking, I'm showing you myroutine.
Structure is the number onething that changes a dog's.
To put this, it's a lifestyle.
It is a lifestyle.

Speaker 1 (41:10):
You eat at a certain time, you go to bed at a certain
time, almost like with children.

Speaker 2 (41:16):
It is.
It is like with children,exactly, except it's easier
because they can't reason withyou and they, you know kids,
it's like all my kids alwaystold me why why they needed to
stay up later.
Right, I've never had a dog dothat, but keeping that structure
, when you know, I have a littlepuppy, uh, scooter, and from

(41:36):
day one, like we had him on napschedules, just like a human
right, and at nine o'clock he'llstand up.
He's six months old now.
He stands up, walks to the doorand he's.
And we have a kennel buildingoutside where he sleeps and he
walks through and wait for youand he'll lay there until you
come to the door and then hewalks into the kennel building,
he gets his kennel, we shut thedoor.

(41:57):
I gave him a little peanutbutter with kong in it because
it makes me feel good, right andum, and he's good, but but he's
been on that same schedulesince he's been with us, you
know, and that that is whattruly changes dogs and then
creating a negative run waterbehavior.

Speaker 1 (42:12):
That's it I have to ask you if there's any emerging
trends in training.
And, and before we delve intothat, I'm going to give you my
own observation.
When we grew up, our dogs werehouse trained almost immediately
as puppies.
Now I find that dogs are notfully house trained.
People have these pee pads andit seems like the there's pick.

(42:32):
There's a lot of accidents andwhat's.
I don't think the dogs havechanged.

Speaker 2 (42:36):
I think human behavior has changed oh,
absolutely, and I'm not gonna,um, guess your age, but but I
kind of know I've read, I'veread about you, right, and so,
like, also, when you weregrowing up, dogs are largely
outside dogs.
You didn't have all the dogsinside like we do now.
Right, there was a.
Usually mom had a small doginside and the big dogs are

(42:58):
outside, but for the most partthey were still dogs.
And so you can go back 15 yearsago, 18 years ago maybe, and
see the line where marketingmade the dog part of the family
and so marketing made you lookat this dog as if they were a
human and we don't know how torelate to dogs other than the

(43:20):
way we relate to humans, becausewe're not dogs.
And so a dog comes in and wehave to give them all the stuff,
and you know we have to.
Oh, it's okay, baby, it's, youknow.
And here's a, here's acomfortable bed for you.
They should.
Why don't you show up your bed?
I'll get you another one, right, and so, through marketing,
genius marketing.
It's why we're so busy, right?
It's because they made dogspart of your family.
Now, dogs before were dogs, theywere pets, they were in your

(43:44):
family, but they didn'tgenerally watch TV with you and
do all the stuff, and you didn'tdress them.
Did you ever dress your dogmenup in clothes?
No, why not?
Probably because they didn'thave them.
Now you can go to the store andbuy a whole wardrobe for every
day, right?

(44:04):
And so a lot of people are nothaving children in there.
Is is early and they'readopting dogs and getting dogs
to fill that void, to see ifthey're good parents, and so
we've humanized dogs, um, and,and that trend during covid um
escalated 500 percent.

Speaker 1 (44:15):
500 percent during code so are dogs evolving and
getting to know us better.

Speaker 2 (44:20):
No, dogs are a product of their environment.
They're a product of what theycome out of.
When I get a dog, I can tellyou after spending a day with
that dog.
I can tell you largely what thehome conditions are like.
Right, they're strictly aproduct of their environment.

Speaker 1 (44:35):
Give me an example of what a dog's behavior would
tell you about their homeenvironment.

Speaker 2 (44:41):
So we had an Australian Shepherd come in a
few weeks ago.
The dog was just all over theplace, I mean would not focus on
you, it's just.
I mean it took us probably aweek just to get the dog to
focus on us, right, and it wasjust very aloof, very flighty,
very into every, into everything.
We got the dog trained.
The whole family came to thetraining turnover session and

(45:05):
they had five kids, three ofwhich were triplet boys about
four years old.
Those triplet boys will be thebest career criminals you will
ever meet.
They were good, they were good.
They were good.
Two would distract you, theother one would go get into
stuff.
Then you go get that one andyou come back.
Now there's only one, but theone's following you and they're
in like they were in my deskdrawers.

(45:27):
They were in the back trying tolet dogs out of the kennel,
like that.
And the mom was just like I.
I don't know what to do.
I, I give up, and so the.
What I saw in that familydynamic was exactly how the dog
acted when it came in.
Right, if you have somebody,mom may be nice, dad might be
too gruff and hard on the dog,borderline, abusive, right,
girls train the dog fine.

(45:47):
I walk in and grab the dog andthe dog slams to the floor.
Because I'm a man, I have adeep voice, because what's
coming next right, and so wehave to work them through that.
So there's rarely a situationwhere dog comes in where we
can't say this is the homedynamic dog sells door.

Speaker 1 (46:03):
I can tell it's so interesting and I think I think
we don't recognize that that thedog is a reflection of the, the
home right and what's going onin it because it's not how we
think we think.

Speaker 2 (46:17):
We think like humans, like your reflection of your
home.
You know, like you're areflection of your own.
You know we are a reflection ofthe people we're around the
most and usually that's ourfamily.
We have a toxic family.
We have a toxic outlook on life.
Right, if you have an argumentin a family, we're argumentative
, right, but our house is calm.
And dogs you hardly ever hearfrom them Because we it's calm.
And dogs you hardly ever hearfrom them because we do this, we

(46:38):
don't do this, or big ups anddowns.
We try to keep as steady as wecan.

Speaker 1 (46:43):
For our listening audience.
Terry is doing a flat lineacross the Zoom screen.

Speaker 2 (46:48):
Yes, Not a roller coaster, not a roller coaster.
Yeah, we don't want a rollercoaster, we want a flat line as
close as we can get.
There will be some peaks andvalleys.
We want them to be minimalbecause we we level those out
right in terms of the dogtraining.

Speaker 1 (47:04):
Do people still use those choke collars?

Speaker 2 (47:07):
yeah, they're all kinds of tools.
So choke call is what I wasraised on um and you're just
yanking the heck out of the dog,right, their technology is so
advanced now the training is soless invasive, like when you
start everything with food slipleads.
We have electronic collars thatwork like tendons units.
We have prone collars.
Used properly, they're reallygood tools.

(47:28):
But once the dog gets trained,like all those are training
tools.
Those are just training Right.
Once you get the dog, dog to apoint and all the technology
speeds things up.
So where in the past, somethingthat may take us six weeks
because of technology and newways and training and new
training tools, we can keep thatdog motivated and achieve

(47:49):
something within days.
What used to take us weeks,that's it.
But if you're not trained onhow to use them, you can really
mess up a dog With theinconsistency Inconsistency too
hard of a correction.
You have to teach the dog howyou're communicating with it.
The leash is the communicationtool, right, but if the dog
doesn't understand what it'ssupposed to be doing, if you've

(48:09):
taught the dog to do somethingand they do it pretty well and
then you ask them to do it andthen you give them say a leash
correction with a no, and thenyou ask them to do it and then
you give them say at leastcorrection with a no, and then
you give them the command againand they don't do that two or
three times don't don't do whatyou ask them to do.
There's a huge, hugepossibility that they don't know
what you're asking them to do,right, and so, instead of going
harder on the dog, screaming atthem or yanking whatever like,

(48:33):
go back two steps and do morerepetitions.
When a dog knows what to do,like they know they're getting
something for doing it, so whywouldn't they do I?

Speaker 1 (48:41):
mean I was always taught to use one or two word
commands.
I see people today usingsentences dog has no clue.

Speaker 2 (48:50):
And when we start training dogs we talk to them
very little.
The communication is that leash, right, as I talk in a whisper.
When I talk to staff in thetraining center even my wife
they're like what are you saying?
Because I talk so soft everyday?
Right, because I want to beable to tell a dog that right, I
don't even think you can hearthat.
Or a little hand signal cut itout, right, when you see people

(49:14):
training dogs, it's loud.
Yes, go, go Like, do that in arestaurant.

Speaker 1 (49:18):
Well, you make a really good point.
You make a really good point.
You do want to use your indoorvoice because at some point
you're going to need to give acorrection when you're in public
.

Speaker 2 (49:33):
Yeah, and if you do ever have to raise your voice,
then it means something like Idon't cuss very much, I just
don't.
I was in the Navy, Like I justnever rubbed off on you.
But if I drop a cuss word, thewhole room stops because I never
do that, Right, so something'sout of order, something serious,
Right.
Or if I raise my voice like Idon't use it to raise my voice,
but if I raise my voice thewhole room stops because now it
has value Like we have to teachthese dogs what has value.

(49:55):
Dogs what has value they haveno to value to them is getting
in your trash, jumping on you,bugging you for affection,
scavenging for food, eating yourundergarments Like that's
satisfaction for them, right.
Where if say no, no, that'sgoing to get you in trouble.
But do what I ask you to do.
Look at the food.
You get the praise.
You're always with me, right,so you have to flip that script.

Speaker 1 (50:15):
You don't want them chewing on your expensive shoes,
terry, oh no, and then.

Speaker 2 (50:19):
But but they're, they're good in our shoes.
The reason they chew on ourshoes is because we have scent
glands in our feet and it smellslike us.

Speaker 1 (50:28):
Oh, is that what it is?

Speaker 2 (50:30):
Panties, bras they go for that stuff.
Very rarely would they grabyour T-shirt.
They do.
They chew the armpit out of it.

Speaker 1 (50:42):
True, we're getting a lot of good information here,
folks.

Speaker 2 (50:43):
we're getting a lot of good information.
What are your thoughts on doggydaycare and dog parks?
Um, that, like, we do a daycare, our facility, but it's a
structured daycare.
There's no crazy playing, it'slimited to five dogs per group.
Um, we rotate dogs out, they'reworking on training stuff,
they're learning to be calm,they're learning how to interact
.
So it's like doggy daycare islike throwing humans into a mosh
pit.
Right, if you don't know what amosh pit is, a bunch of people
dancing, slamming around witheach other.

(51:04):
Right, it's a great amount offun if you're into it, but if
you're not, like you'reterrified.
Right, and throwing dogs anddoggy daycares in that
environment.
Dogs are responding to pressureand and it doesn't tire dogs
out like people think itactually keeps them in a state
of arousal all of the time.
Dog parks, dog parks.

(51:24):
I used used to take my dogs todog parks all the time.
Now they're so popular, all thedogs are out of control and
even if your dog is undercontrol, something's going to
happen with a dog that's out ofcontrol and what ends up
happening is there's so muchpressure being put on these dogs
in these environments that theonly way they can make it go
away is by using their mouth.
So now they start fighting andso it becomes a part of the

(51:46):
behavior.
Remember, it's patterning.
So now when a dog comes to me,close to me, I just go for the
bite.
Some dogs thrive in a doggydaycare.
I know some dogs have been indoggy daycare since birth and
they're, you know, five or sixyears old.
Most dogs do not.
It's just too much chaos, notenough structure, too much
pressure on the dogs.
Also too little staff for theamount of dogs we have.
For every five dogs in daycarewe have one person.

(52:08):
You know you go to a doggydaycare.
There's 30 dogs with two people.

Speaker 1 (52:19):
People used to leave their dogs at home, home alone,
when they would go to work, andnow I think a lot of people
think my dog's going to be boredor not get enough exercise so I
need to take them to daycare,and your response to that would
be Downtime is when dogs process.

Speaker 2 (52:27):
If you, as a human, want to learn something and you
stay up for three days justcramming, you don't sleep, you
super immerse yourself in it,how much of that do you think
you'll retain?
Like not much, right, becauseyou have no processing time.
You really learn after you'vedone the thing, after you've
been to class.
Then you're going to sleep,you're processing, then, bam oh,

(52:48):
it all came together.
Right the glue.
When they're always in a stateof chaos, like none of that can
come together.

Speaker 1 (52:56):
That makes total sense.
You've been so great with yourtime.
I've just got a few morequestions, because this is
fascinating to me In a lot ofour condos and HOAs, terry, they
impose a weight limit.

Speaker 2 (53:08):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (53:08):
They'll say no more, you know we'll allow pets, but
no more than 25 pounds or 30pounds.
And when I've asked clients whythe weight restriction, they
always seem to think that thebigger the dog, the bigger the
problem.
I guess that leads back topotentially a larger dog can be
more aggressive and cause moredamage.
But is that really the case?

Speaker 2 (53:27):
Not necessarily One of the departments we managed.
The lady had two men penservice dogs, total tiny dogs
and just I'll save you thegraphics, but we nicknamed that
dog that house the poop house.
We had to have environmentalengineers come in and deal with
it.
That's about $2,000 to like$10,000.
And these were two little teenydogs that she never took

(53:49):
outside right.

Speaker 1 (53:50):
Also, the little dogs sometimes bark more, so in a
lot of the communities theydon't want the nuisance.
But is it your experience that?

Speaker 2 (53:59):
large dogs bark more than small dogs.
Oh, small dogs can be, yeah,yeah, large dogs can bark too,
but it's also adjusting them totheir environment.
You know an apartment thing.
With an apartment, I went froma house to an apartment for
about a year in an interimperiod of my life and it was a
duplex and I had to had to workon my dogs not barking at the

(54:19):
neighbors next door becausethey're like we're in the house,
we're hearing this banging.
So that too goes to training.
I wouldn't say that small dogsbark any more than big dogs,
just more people in apartmentshave small dogs.

Speaker 1 (54:34):
I'm just trying to wrap my head around the basis
for the rule, because we see ita lot.
But listen, I've also seenBurmese mountain dogs in condos
and they're very well behavedand so it depends.
I think in some of the newerupscale communities they're not
putting weight restrictionsbecause, again, there's trends
Right In terms of which breedsare popular.

(54:54):
I think we've got a lot ofpopular large breeds right now.

Speaker 2 (54:58):
And I would be interested to know if those
weight restrictions are put inplace by the complex or by their
insurance carrier.
Interesting Because ourinsurance carriers on all of our
properties.
We had multiple properties andgroups of properties and they
were insured with differentpeople and all of them had a
different requirement, whetherit be, you know, weight or breed

(55:20):
, size, height.
It was all across the board.
So it would be interesting toknow if that was put in place by
an insurance carrier or if itwas put in place by the
apartment complex.

Speaker 1 (55:30):
From my experience, it's the board that's making the
decision, or it was thedeveloper originally, for the
developer created documents, butmore often than not it's a
subsequent board,post-transition, that has
decided.
We want to, you know, implementthese weight restrictions and
sometimes breed restrictions.

Speaker 2 (55:49):
Then look at, look at the what you're asking, though.
So say, you're in an 800 squarefoot apartment with two great
Danes yeah, and they're in thatapartment all day long and they
can't be in kennels becausethey're great Danes.
Like, imagine what thatapartment's going to look and
smell, like you know, in sixmonths.

Speaker 1 (56:04):
Not to mention the comfort level of those dogs.
I mean that gets back to thequestion I asked a few minutes
ago about you know, taking intoaccount your dog's needs when
you're making a housingselection.

Speaker 2 (56:16):
Absolutely, absolutely, and also knowing
that the folks that own theseproperties have the ability and
the right to make their rules.
It is their place.
So if you come visit me and youbring your dog, we have a
kennel building out.
Your dog can come in and visitwith us, but at night, if it
doesn't sleep with you, itsleeps in the kennel building or
in a kennel.
Those are my rules in my house,because I don't want dogs

(56:37):
wandering my house.
Right, it's my house.
If we have people that comepick up their service dogs all
the time, the rules still apply.
Right, because a service dogwill pee on my couch.
It smells another dog, justlike any other dog.
They're dogs, right?
And so we have to at some pointsay well, these people own the
property, I'm leasing it fromthem and, as long as the rules

(56:59):
are reasonable, I have to abideby them or you don't live there.

Speaker 1 (57:01):
Well, Terry, I'd like to have you on all my boards.
You sound like you run a reallytight ship.

Speaker 2 (57:06):
The thing is, you have these guidelines, you have
your lease, you have a propertyowner and says I'm going to
build this property and it'sgoing to be amazing and we're
going to keep it amazing becausewe're not going to allow German
Shepherds and all these bigdogs to make people fearful.
For one, your neighbor sees aGerman Shepherd coming at them
like oh, German Shepherd, youknow.

(57:28):
So we have to take into accountthat there's two sides to this
whole thing, not just theservice animals.
Right, I get you have adisability, I get you need a
service animal.
However, in life there arerules, always rules.

Speaker 1 (57:41):
Those rules are in place because something happened
, usually bad to make a ruleright, but the pendulum has
swung very far in the directionof people using legal loopholes
to get dogs in pet-restrictedcommunities.
So hopefully the pendulum isgoing to swing back towards the
middle, and we've seen this withthe air carriers, terry.

(58:03):
They are now taking a stricterstance.
I mean, we had peacocks andturkeys and all sorts of crazy
animals on airplanes asemotional support animals and
the air carriers are now pushingback against that a little bit.
Also, I've always wondered,because I've been on planes with
a number of emotional supportanimals in the event of an
emergency, I'm wondering howpeople would get around some of

(58:25):
these animals trying to deplane.

Speaker 2 (58:28):
Yeah, well, I'll tell you, the animals in an
emergency situation are notconsidered important.
Humans are considered important.
The animal is an afterthoughtbecause it's not a human life.
That's horrible to say, butit's the truth.
The animal is an afterthoughtbecause they're not.
It's not a human life.
That's horrible to say, butit's the truth.
The dogs are not people.
Dogs are not human, it's not ahuman life and it's treated
differently.
I was just reading a recent casefrom the airlines and they are

(58:54):
being strict.
I just helped another trainerof mine.
She's moving from here to, shehas to go to Germany and then
she's moving to Spain.
Well, her dog is solid.
I wrote a letter, all thequalifications this airline
needed.
She paid her stuff and theyneeded some more information and
they told her no.
They told her no, she lost hermoney.
She had to go find anotherairline.
That is their right to do that.
It is it to do that.

(59:15):
It is.
It is their right to say we'vegiven us everything we've asked
and, and I would say probably,because it was a german shepherd
if I had to guess.
Right, yeah, you know, you'vedone everything you ask.
However, we do not feel likethis is a good, good decision
for us to make and you have togo with that I was gonna say did
.

Speaker 1 (59:32):
What was her reaction ?
Did she push back, did shethreaten?

Speaker 2 (59:36):
the dog trainer.
She's in the dog world, sheknows that, that they can do
that right taking your dog tothe zoo.
Like they can say no, they havehundreds of animals, lives at
risk if your dog bringssomething in right and we have
to respect the business owner,the apartment owner, the if your
tenant homeowner like.
There has to be some respect,for this is their stuff and they

(01:00:01):
know how to manage it.
It's not anything against youand your dog but historically
these things have happened andwe know this is a bad deal.

Speaker 1 (01:00:08):
Well, you know that there has been some erosion of
respect across the board, sosome people just don't like to
be told no when it comes torules that may apply to them.
I'm that person.

Speaker 2 (01:00:22):
If the wall says, if there's a sign on the wall that
says wet paint, I want to knowhow wet that paint is.
Right, it's just my nature, Iwant to test boundaries, right.
But if you're in life youunderstand like, this is their
house, it's not mine, this istheir restaurant, it's not.
And I have to be willing if I,if it doesn't fit within their
guidelines, I have to be willingto go somewhere else or have a

(01:00:42):
conversation with them to saywhat can I do to make this work?
You know I like to eat thisrestaurant.
Now I have a service dog youdon't like service dogs in here
like could I sit on the patio?
Is there a back corner booththat can sit?
And how can?
This helps the people.
How can we work?
Most people are reasonable.
If you're reasonable absolutelygreat point.

Speaker 1 (01:01:00):
Most people are reasonable.
They want to.
They want to help you.

Speaker 2 (01:01:03):
Um, if you're reasonable you have to give me
as well.
I don't have to do anything.
Right, you have to do this.
Approach it like okay, so Ineed an apartment here.
Let me tell you in advance Ihave a service dog.
It's not ideal to have thistype of service dog, but this is
why I have it.
And lead with that, notsneaking around the back end.
You're trying to get out of apet feed, any of that stuff you

(01:01:28):
know.
Lead with that.

Speaker 1 (01:01:30):
And there's plenty of people that absolutely need
these animals and they come toplaces like West Tennessee
Canine, West Tennessee K-9 toget the training.

Speaker 2 (01:01:39):
Right, and if the people say no, they say no.

Speaker 1 (01:01:43):
I am going to say as the lawyer there are some legal
consequences, so make sureyou're speaking to, if it's an
association, make sure you'respeaking to association counsel
before you say no, make sure youproperly evaluated the request.

Speaker 2 (01:01:54):
Can I add on to that?
No, If they say no and they'rein the wrong, then they're in
the wrong right.
But if you, as the dog owner,have done everything you can do,
provided the information that'sbeen requested, and they still
say no, then that's different,right, terry?

Speaker 1 (01:02:10):
I always tell them boards should not rubber stamp
these applications and theyshouldn't deny them out of hand.
They need to be thoughtfullyevaluated.

Speaker 2 (01:02:20):
And let me take it further, case by case and not by
the apartment manager.
There needs to be some placethat can be elevated.
So it takes emotions out of itand also, if whoever's looking
at these on the board says no,it relieves the apartment
manager from having to be inthat position.

Speaker 1 (01:02:36):
It's not their decision.

Speaker 2 (01:02:37):
This is our rules.
Let me elevate it to the board,or whoever that person is, the
owner or whoever, with all thedocumentation, and let's see
what rule they make.

Speaker 1 (01:02:45):
Work with counsel, there are legal repercussions
and whenever the question is, isthere a liability if my
suggestion is reach out toattorney.
So, whether it's the attorneyfor the apartment complex, or
the attorney for the apartmentcomplex or the attorney for the
association, I did want to askyou a completely off the wall
question.
Is that OK, terry?
Yes, but as long as I have youhere, yeah, cloning of dogs.

(01:03:05):
Have any of your serviceanimals ever been cloned?

Speaker 2 (01:03:10):
No, they haven't.
But you know it's going tohappen eventually.

Speaker 1 (01:03:15):
I think so because because somebody can get so
attached to that particularanimal right.

Speaker 2 (01:03:20):
They would.
But you know, would they wouldif they were cloned?
Like would they have this?
Would they just be born withthe same understanding and
knowledge, or would you have toteach them again, like I don't
know?
I don't know anything aboutcloning.

Speaker 1 (01:03:32):
It's a fascinating question, though, isn't it?
I mean, right up until now.
Now, the only people that I'veread about cloning animals are
celebrities cloning theirfavorite pets, but I'm wondering
, in the service animal space,this is an animal that you
depend on to be, and, again, ifyou're using a larger animal
that only has a seven or eightyear lifespan, yeah whether or

(01:03:54):
not this is going to besomething we see in the future
I'm going to go, yes, becausejust the way things are going.

Speaker 2 (01:04:00):
technology is advanced, so we still don't know
like, will they come outtrained or won't they come out
trained?

Speaker 1 (01:04:05):
Yes, they don't come out trained, but they come out
with the same personality thatmade them a good choice in the
first place.

Speaker 2 (01:04:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:04:12):
As a circus animal.
I've told you that I've had acouple of dogs.
I had dogs growing up.
I had we had a dog for 12 and ahalf years.
But I am now a proud cat owner,Terry, and I would like to know
how come there's never anyformal training for cats.

Speaker 2 (01:04:27):
Well, in Cats, Be Trained.
One of my trainers actuallyused to train cats at SeaWorld.
I mean I said, well, how wouldyou handle it if the, if the
cats didn't do what you want todo?
She said we take them back tothe shelter and get another cat.
Oh, that's mean, Because therethey use all shelter animals for
all their stuff.
But the thing with cats is youcan teach cats to do stuff, but

(01:04:48):
if they want something and wantto do something and you keep
them from doing it a certain way, they'll just find another way
to do it.
Like.
The cats are never reallycompletely tamed, Like if you,
as long as your cat has claws,if you turn it outside today
like it would live, If you neverfed it again and put it outside
, like it would live.

Speaker 1 (01:05:05):
Well, isn't that true for a dog?

Speaker 2 (01:05:07):
No no.

Speaker 1 (01:05:08):
Really.

Speaker 2 (01:05:08):
Not at all.
Dogs are not instinctivehunters like cats.

Speaker 1 (01:05:16):
If I put my dogs out, like I would have to wake up to
let them in they would notleave, they wouldn't go chase
down a squirrel.

Speaker 2 (01:05:23):
No way, okay, no way.
If they did, it would be alucky even the hunting breeds
they make turtles and things,but to you know they would go
through trash.
They would.
They would do that.
Dogs are dogs are opportunists.
At this point, they're sodomesticated that there are
certain breeds that and dogsthat would be able to do that.
The majority would not.

Speaker 1 (01:05:42):
Well, how do we domesticate these cats?

Speaker 2 (01:05:44):
I mean, I have a lovely cat.
It's their DNA, it's theirgenetics.
It's, like you know, trying tomake you an elephant.
Like it's not going to happen.
It's because you're geneticallya human.
Like you're not going to.
We can't flip a switch and saythis week I'm gonna roam the
plains of africa as an elephant.
You know, it's just, it's whoyou're bred to be.
Go, go google like cat cans andstuff like that, and watch like

(01:06:07):
cats are in the bed with people.
They go out a little cat door,they have a camera on them.
They go rob a bird's nest.
They're covered in blood, theyclean themselves up and they get
right back in bed with theirown.

Speaker 1 (01:06:15):
Like it's pretty gross they have secret lives,
they have secret lives.

Speaker 2 (01:06:19):
That's a good way to put it.

Speaker 1 (01:06:20):
They, cats, are troublemakers oh boy, I I know I
can't really dispute this, Ireally can't, but I do love my
cat.
Well, I want to thank you somuch.
Where can people find youronline training, terry?

Speaker 2 (01:06:32):
I'm just west tennessee canine.
Um, easy enough.
Find on youtube social media.
We have 10 years of consistentsocial media.
Everything we do at theTraining Center is free on
YouTube.
Find our social media.
If you ask us a question, wewill answer it, because if
you're asking us a question,there are hundreds of other
people that need that answer too.

Speaker 1 (01:06:49):
I learned so much today.
Thank you so much, Terry.

Speaker 2 (01:06:51):
You're very welcome.
If I can help again in thefuture, please let me know.

Speaker 1 (01:06:58):
Thank you for joining us today.
Don't forget to follow and rateus on your favorite podcast
platform, or visitTakeItToTheBoardcom for more
ways to connect.

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