Transforming Your Corporate Culture with Motivational Speaker & Author Chris Dyer

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Join host Donna DiMaggio Berger on this week’s Take It To The Board podcast as she welcomes Chris Dyer, a motivational speaker, author, and former CEO who’s led teams of thousands. Ranked as the #1 leadership speaker on culture by Inc. Magazine, Chris is known for his best-selling books, The Power of Company Culture and Remote Work. Together, Donna and Chris share insights on keeping people motivated, overcoming adversity, and bridging generational gaps in the workplace.

Whether you're a management professional, community association vendor, or volunteer board member, this episode uncovers crucial leadership steps that can drive innovation and engagement across any organization. Chris and Donna explore what truly motivates people, revealing why recognition and purpose often outweigh paychecks. They discuss strategies for fostering creativity and risk-taking, even in traditionally conservative fields like law, and highlight the importance of embracing change to create a dynamic workplace culture.

Tune in to discover how to overcome resistance to innovation, use open communication to nurture new ideas, and navigate the unique challenges volunteer boards face. From generational differences to the role of AI in workplace communication, this episode is packed with practical tips for building loyalty and cultivating a connected, productive environment—whether you're leading from the boardroom, the Clubhouse or the home office!!

Conversation Highlights Include:

• The “7 Pillars” that can transform an organization’s culture
• How corporations can use adversity to grow
• What qualities distinguish a great CEO from others
• How different generations can work together to foster a more productive working environment
• Skills to effectively manage a remote team
• How AI is changing corporate culture 

Related Links:

• Online Class: Dealing with Difficult People 
• Webinar: Employment Trends and Recurring Issues That Impact Community Associations as Employers
• Podcast: Examining the Challenges Community Association Attorneys Face and the Corporate Responsibility Community Associations Shoulder with Marcia Narine Weldon, Law Professor

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hi everyone, I'm attorney Donna DiMaggio-Berger
and this is Take it to the Board, where we speak condo and HOA.
Today, I'm thrilled to welcomeChris Dyer to the podcast.
Chris is a powerhouse in theworld of leadership, corporate
culture and workplace dynamics.
But he isn't just anymotivational speaker.
He's been ranked by IncMagazine as the number one

(00:24):
leadership speaker on culture,and he's a former CEO who led
teams of thousands.
His companies were consistentlycelebrated as some of the best
places to work.
Thanks to the principle heshares in his two best-selling
books, the Power of CompanyCulture and Remote Work, chris
has transformed organizationsworldwide, helping them build
thriving, productive cultureswhere employees feel engaged and

(00:46):
valued.
Today, he's bringing thosehard-won insights to us, diving
into how to keep peoplemotivated, overcome adversity
and bridge generational gaps inthe workplace.
So, whether you're a managementprofessional, a community
association vendor or avolunteer board member, this
episode is going to be packedwith takeaways to help you
elevate your organization.

(01:08):
After all, your association isa corporation and building the
right culture is key to itslong-term success.
Get ready for an inspiringconversation with Chris Dyer.
So with that, chris, welcome toTake it to the Board.

Speaker 2 (01:21):
Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 1 (01:23):
I wanted to start out with your seven pillars of
success, which you highlightedin your book the Power of
Company Culture.
Can you tell us what thoseseven pillars are?

Speaker 2 (01:32):
Sure.
So I'll just kind of name themreally quickly, and if you want
to talk about any one inparticular, we can, but they
aren't necessarily in an order.
It's not like number one is thebest one, it's usually just in
what order I can remember themTransparency, listening,
positivity, measurement,recognition, mistakes and
uniqueness.

(01:53):
So those are the things thatgreat companies get right in
their companies, whether theyare nonprofits or they are for
profit.
It doesn't matter what kind oforganization you are.
If you get those right, yourculture will be great.

Speaker 1 (02:06):
I can tell you that one already leapt out at me, and
that was transparency.
So we're going to be talkingtoday about corporations, both
for-profit, like I said, whetherit's a law firm, whether it's a
landscape company, a managementcompany.
they're all looking to build aproductive corporate culture,
but we also are talking aboutthis called Take it to the Board

(02:28):
.
So we're going to be talkingabout all the not-for-profit
community association culturesout there and transparency left
out.
At me, chris, because that isperhaps one of the biggest
sticking points in privateresidential communities that a
lot of times the people livingin those communities feel that
there is not sufficienttransparency between what the

(02:49):
board is doing and what they'redeciding and what you know, the
ultimate framework within whichthey're expected to operate.

Speaker 2 (02:57):
Yeah.
So it's really the magic bullet, and it's often where I suggest
people start if they want tomake improvements, and what's
hard is that we can only do our50 percent.
And it's often where I suggestpeople start if they want to
make improvements, and what'shard is that we can only do our
50%.
So let's just say you were onthat board of that community.
You can be transparent, you cantell people everything that you
think they need to know.
They need to want to listen, toread, to be informed in order

(03:21):
for that to have a large effecton them.
But it's our job to doeverything that we can to make
sure that anyone who wants toknow, anyone that should know
that they have everything thatthey need to make good decisions
, to feel confident about what'sgoing on, and that they know
whatever the truth is.
In my company, I was frustratedthat people weren't coming to me

(03:44):
with better ideas.
I thought I have hired allthese smart people, they do a
good job, but they weren'tshowing up with great ideas,
they weren't innovating, theyweren't.
You know, essentially I was theone who had to make that happen
, and when I started being moretransparent, that was when

(04:05):
everything got better.
That was when they understoodhow to help me, how to be more
innovative, because they hadwhat was in my brain as well.
So my company was a humancapital company.
I still had it for 20 plusyears.
I sold it at the end of 2021.
But back in 2008, when we werereally going through a tough
recession because 40% of myclients were in the mortgage
industry which recession because40% of my clients were in the

(04:25):
mortgage industry, which meant Ilost 40% of my clients.
Also, 40% of my receivableswere gone.
And so I'm like, hey, we needbig ideas.
How are we going to save thecompany?
What are we going to do?
And everyone was staring at meand I realized, for the first
seven years of the company, ifthere was an idea, it came from
me.
If something happened, it wasbecause I wanted it to happen

(04:47):
and I had not created the rightculture for them to really feel
empowered to come up with thosegreat ideas.
But, more importantly, I hadnot shared with them enough
information.
They didn't understand how thebusiness worked, how we made
money, how we spent money.
Like what are all the thingsthat they needed to understand.
And as soon as I started givingthem more and more and more

(05:10):
information and some employeesthey just they couldn't get
enough, they were sponges.
And others employees were likeyeah, yeah, whatever, like I
don't, they didn't care andthat's fine.
Again, remember, I have my 50%,they have their 50%.
They either they want to knowor they don't want to know.
But for the ones that wanted toknow, that loved learning and
knowing about the business,suddenly they had better ideas

(05:30):
than I did.
Suddenly they started coming tome and solving problems for me
because there wasn't the gapright it's a big picture.

Speaker 1 (05:39):
So you were explaining the big picture to
your employees.
What would you say to a largecompany where they want to know
whether or not Susan in themailroom needs to know the big
picture of the company, itsethics, its mission statement?
I mean, do you think thistrickles down your big picture,
speaking to everyone in thecorporation?

Speaker 2 (05:58):
We can't tell everyone everything.
We can create access.
We can make sure that ifthere's things that if they want
to know, they have access tothem.
But it gets to be a littleoverwhelming if, like, all we're
doing is constantly tellingeveryone everything that
happened right, if, like, werecorded every meeting that
happened in the entire companyand try to ask everyone to be
insane.
But I was first turned on tothis concept through uh jack

(06:22):
stack, who's a famous businessperson, and he had a book called
the Great Game of Business.
In fact, we read it in the bookclub that you and I are in.

Speaker 1 (06:30):
I should have mentioned that in the intro,
that we're in a book club.
That's how I know you.

Speaker 2 (06:33):
Yes, and so in that book he talks about how he began
to give everyone in the companythe P&L statement every month,
and they also provided financialeducation to everyone in the
companies.
They realized they were givingthem these P&Ls, but most of
them didn't know how to read it,they didn't know what it meant.
They didn't have thatunderstanding.

(06:54):
And to your question in thebook he said it was the janitor.
It was the guy who was sweepingthe floor in my factory who
came to us with the biggest ideathat saved us the most amount
of money.
Why?
Because he's there observingeverything.
He was watching them moving allof this stuff around, only to
have to move it all over again.
Right, because he had to go andsweep after they moved every

(07:17):
time.
And he came up with the idea ofchanging the order in which
they did things.

Speaker 1 (07:22):
That saved them millions of dollars a year,
right, there's always a betterway to build a better mousetrap,
right?
So in your example, it couldhave been the janitor coming up
with a better way to do his job,but sometimes it's somebody in
a completely differentdepartment, right, coming up
with a better idea for somebodyin a different department.

Speaker 2 (07:42):
Yeah, and when they see like wait a minute, we spend
money on that, like we spendhow much money on what?
And suddenly they go you know Ican get a better deal.
I know another vendor that likeit's half the price, but they
didn't know we spend $12 millionon toilet paper every year.
Like suddenly, when they havethat understanding, then people
go well, how do we save money,how do we conserve?

(08:03):
How do we do that differently?
Right, we know we need moresalespeople, but we're spending
$12 million on office supplies.
Like how do we cut that numberdown, right, in a big
organization?
And so people start thinkingabout in different ways because
they understand, they know, andthen we've empowered them.

Speaker 1 (08:17):
Do you have to incentivize them, chris?

Speaker 2 (08:19):
No, I've seen companies that do that.
But I will tell you theresearch says that when we tell
people, if you do, if you comeup with better ideas this is
from Daniel Pink's work when inhis first book we talked about
mastery, autonomy and purpose,they went back and proved that
if you tell someone to like makehit the hammer harder, hit it

(08:39):
more times on a factory machine.
Yes, you can get a little bitmore productivity out of them if
you give them a little bit moremoney.
But if you say to them, I needyou to come up with better ideas
and if you do, I'll give youmore money, they actually came
up with less ideas.

Speaker 1 (08:53):
Why do you think that is?

Speaker 2 (08:54):
Because it's the pressure and it's like suddenly
now it's like, oh my gosh, Ihave to come up with this idea
because I money instead ofhere's what we do, here's how we
do it.
If you and we want, we wantyour ideas, if you have them,
and then we're going tocelebrate you and we're going to
put your name on the wall orwe'll give you a cape or buy you
lunch or send you like we'll dosomething for you afterwards,

(09:16):
that's OK, can be, we can be.
Recognition is one of thepillars.
We can recognize youappropriately.
But when we take money off thetable, we pay people
appropriately.
They're making what they shouldbe making.
We're not.
So this doesn't work.
If you're going to like what wewoefully pay under what the
industry is paying, it's notabout money Very, very few

(09:36):
people and very, very few jobs.
Is it actually about the money?
And I know what everyone'ssaying.
Well, what about salespeople?
My best salesperson.
For 10 straight years I gavehim the award for best salesman
of the year and every time Iasked him and every time we
surveyed, the money was likenumber eight on his list of
things that were important tohim.

Speaker 1 (09:56):
Isn't there a book that's the equivalent of the
seven love languages?
But for businessacknowledgement I think they
want time, maybe with the CEO.

Speaker 2 (10:06):
Right right, he really enjoyed seeing the impact
that he made for clients.
He enjoyed creating betteroutcomes for clients.
That really made him happy.
He really enjoyed that thecompany did well and he was a
part of that, that he had a bighand in the success of the
company and that ultimatelyallowed us to continue to employ

(10:27):
his friends and people he caredabout.
Like there was so many otherthings.
Yeah, he liked the money, butit wasn't like if he made $5,000
less this year, he was like,well, that's it, I'm going to go
look for another job becauseI'm like, no, like the other
things meant so much more to him.

Speaker 1 (10:42):
So some people are huge idea generators.
Others not so much.
Do you think everybody has theability to contribute ideas?

Speaker 2 (10:51):
Ideas, yes.
Now whether or not they'regoing to be helpful to your
company and be groundbreaking,that just depends on the person,
the situation, all that.
But you set yourself up.
You will have the most luck insomething amazing happening if
you give people that information, give them access to the
information you talk about, whatit is we're trying to do, what

(11:12):
our goals are.
One of the other pillars ismeasurement right.
So I would show up every monthand say to people okay, remember
, okay, here's our P&L.
I sent it to everyone.
We'd ask, answer questions.
Here's how our goal was to begrowing this much.
Here's how we're doing.
Our goal was this much profit.
This is how we're doing.
And when things didn't go welland it was like, well, we were

(11:32):
supposed to make money thismonth and we lost money.
Here's what we're going to doabout it.
Here's why we think it happenedRight and like suddenly now
we're in a real dialogue witheveryone about how we're going
to fix it, what we're going todo or why we think it's
happening.
And now they feel a part of theconversation.
They feel I don't want to saythey feel like an owner, because
that's not fair.
They're not getting thebenefits of an owner.

(11:52):
They certainly feel connected.

Speaker 1 (11:55):
Or inclusive.

Speaker 2 (11:56):
Or included right into the conversation and what's
really happening.
And I know a lot of people saywell, if you tell people how
much you make, they're going toask you for a raise, and if they
see that you didn't do well forthree months, they're going to
leave.
That never once happened.
I had thousands of people thatreported to me, that had access
to those records and not asingle time did someone call me

(12:16):
and say well, I saw we had threemonths of record-breaking sales
.
I deserve a raise.
Never happened?

Speaker 1 (12:22):
Did you have an open compensation model, Chris, where
people knew what other peoplein their departments made or
just how the company was doingoverall?

Speaker 2 (12:31):
Yeah, we struggled with, like, whether or not we
should blast and shareeveryone's salaries with
everybody.
We were working our way to thatand we saw some other companies
that tried that and we sawwhere they struggled.
Um, it can be really difficultbecause what's fair?
So if we try to treat everyoneequal, I think that's where we

(12:52):
fail.
Does my salary in orange county?
How is that different than whatyou might get paid for the same
job where you live if your costof living is dramatically
different and your state salestax system is dramatically
different?
Right, like what's fair, andthat's what we always tried to
do is are we paying peoplefairly based on their job, their

(13:13):
experience and where they live?
And so to do that, we were verytransparent with the team.
The team had a big.
They definitely knew kind ofwhat they were being paid and
what those ranges were.
We had a harder time and wemaybe would have gotten there if
I would have not sold thecompany within a few years that
maybe the whole company couldhave known that Right.
But we certainly didn't stoppeople from talking about it.

(13:35):
There was no rules against itand we weren't intentionally
hiding it.

Speaker 1 (13:39):
This is industry dependent too, chris, because,
for instance, I'm in the legalindustry.
So some big law firms,everybody's in lockstep.
You know what the associatesmake every step of the way.
You know what your bonus isgoing to be.
There's firms, smaller firms,mid-level firms like mine, where
you have what's called a closedcompensation model.

(13:59):
You don't know necessarily whateverybody's?
making and everybody'sopportunity for bonuses and
compensation varies depending onhow much they want to put into
it I want to talk about.
I want to continue with theindustry specific question,
because let's sit with lawyersfor a second.
We're not the most creativebunch of people.

(14:20):
To start with, we have a fewcreatives in our midst, but
overall not the most creativebunch.
We're a few creatives in ourmidst, but overall not the most
creative bunch.
We're also very risk adverse.
So, unlike more creativeindustries where they come out
with a new product or a new ideaand there's a buzz, you do that
in certain industries like thelegal, there's going to be more
fear related to that.
What do you say to somebody whois an idea generator in an

(14:44):
industry and specifically in acorporate culture currently that
doesn't embrace change, andthat person is getting hit with?
Well, we've always done it thisway and we're comfortable doing
it this way yeah.

Speaker 2 (14:56):
So I believe that everyone can come up with great
ideas and I believe that everyculture and company actually
wants change.
They just want good change.
They don't want bad change.
They don't want to do somethingand have it not work as well,
like that's the thing they'retrying to avoid.
We're always trying to avoidloss.
There's a cognitive bias thatsays you know, basically, if you

(15:17):
lost $10, you would feel somuch worse than if you won $100.
Like the feeling of $100 isn'teven close to what you feel as
if you lost $10.
So we are very, very worriedabout loss.
So the language that I suggestpeople use is what's tradition?
What are the traditions of thecompany that we wanna keep?

(15:40):
And if you call that out andyou talk about that and you make
sure that people understand andbelieve that we're not trying
to change the tradition of thiscompany.
But there are things that wecan do to help us be better, to
help us honor those traditionsin a new and modern or better

(16:00):
way.
And that's usually the languagethat we need, especially with
those that are the most riskadverse.
But look, we went through COVIDand everybody went and worked
from home and it worked out justfine.
Like, sometimes we get our handforced on us and we have to do
something and we find out itworked just fine.
So the other thing that we cando is, instead of asking like if

(16:21):
you go to your boss and you'relike I had this idea and I want
to radically change everythingand let me like no, but what you
can do is say would you mind ifwe went and tested this?
I have this idea.
Can I go test it with thissmall group of people Right, or
with this one new client, orwith this one thing?
Can I go test it in a safe wayand I'm going to, we'll come
back, I'll tell you out, be openand transparent and we can talk

(16:42):
about it.
Was it a good idea or not?
What did I learn?
Like I've never had anyone tellme no in that, in that setting.

Speaker 1 (16:49):
It's the way you framed it.
You framed it in first of all.
You made it temporary becauseyou're saying let's try it, Not
that we're going to.
This is our permanent path fromthis point forward and, yeah, I
imagine that's a very that's avery effective way to approach
management with a new idea.
You did say that there's a bigfear when it comes to accepting

(17:10):
ideas that they might not workout.
But listen, I mentioned in theintro, you're a keynote speaker.
You've got tons of speeches onYouTube.
I checked you out, Chris, andyou mentioned that adversity
that it's actually can be veryhelpful.
So if you try an idea and itdoesn't work out, or the company
goes through adversity, likeyours did during the recession

(17:33):
and the subprime mortgagefailure, how do you think that
does help a corporate culture?

Speaker 2 (17:38):
So let's turn this a very calm and perfectly
manicured existence of anythingright will actually create
weakness.
This comes from the bookAnti-Fragile I forget the
author's name, but if you laidin bed and never moved right,
you would be perfectly restedright, your skin would be like

(18:01):
not everything should be perfect, but like it would also be weak
because your muscles wouldatrophy.
If you just sat in bed all day,you never talked to anybody,
your brain would start tobasically decompose just laying
there.
But technically you'll be safeand you'll never be sore and
you'll never have anything everhappen to you.

Speaker 1 (18:19):
You know, there's an old saying on points smooth seas
don't make good sailors.

Speaker 2 (18:23):
Perfect.
That's exactly what we'retalking about.
So we can't constantly be inadversity, we can't constantly
be in like this chaos, but whenwe go through chaos, when we go
through a hard time, that's whatbuilds character, that's what
builds resilience, that's whatbuilds our muscle, our virtual
you know culture muscle to bebetter and to be ready for the

(18:44):
next time something happens.
And so if we're constantly notallowing for anything to be
different, if we're not testingand we're not trying new things,
we're not going to be preparedfor when we actually do have to
make a shift or a change,because a pandemic shows up, or
because the laws change, orbecause our industry suddenly

(19:05):
under I mean, look at them, lookat the real estate industry has
suddenly had this like crazychange because of some of some
lawsuit that happened, right.
We're recording this today onthe election Based on your
political views, you may, at theend of today or tomorrow,
whenever we know, you may thinkthat the world has gone upside
down and your business has tochange, right.

(19:28):
So how do we prepare for thosemoments?
And it's by doing these smallerthings to be it's like, it's
like exercising.
If you go to the gym a littlebit and you prepare Right.
You could probably go run amarathon if you needed to, but
if you never exercise and younever did anything, there's no
way you'd ever be able to dothat.

Speaker 1 (19:45):
You know I failed to mention that we are taping this
on election day.
There's going to be a lot ofpeople up late tonight, but
you're talking about pivoting,so your business may have to
pivot, depending on.
I think it's the book Good toGreat that talks about the black
swans that pop up that youhaven't anticipated.
I want to talk about CEOs andhow they handle this.

Speaker 2 (20:07):
And this could be either the.

Speaker 1 (20:07):
CEO of your business, or it could be the president of
your community associationboard.
You kind of revealed your levelof leadership when you said,
basically, you had a level ofhumility by admitting that the
mistake was yours because youhadn't talked to your people and
welcomed them.
You know, introducing ideasCEOs who are control freaks and

(20:31):
they don't really want to hear.
They don't really want to hearother people's ideas.
They've got their ideas.
They want people implementingtheir ideas.
Okay, they may even bouncetheir ideas off of somebody else
, but they're not that open toanybody else being an idea
generator.
How would you convince thatstyle leader that they might
want to reconsider?

Speaker 2 (20:53):
So let's put them in a couple of categories.
There's the great leaders, whoare open to that, right?
Ok, so that's in one bucket.
Then we have the next bucket,which is actually they will.
If you come to them correctly,if you are delivering that
message in the right way, whichis what we've been talking about
, they will be open to it.
It's just that they're a littlejaded, they're a little.
They have a little bit of acrusty exterior because they've

(21:15):
been doing this for a long timeand they've had, you know, every
employee come to them with somecockamamie thing that they want
, or they want it for themselves.
Like, the employee is notreally asking for the benefit of
the company or the CEO, they'rereally asking for some
selfishly motivated thing, right?
So we have to make sure thatwe're aligning correctly with

(21:36):
the business and the CEO to askthat question correctly.
The third category this isactually a much smaller group,
even though we characterize themas a much larger group are the
ones that are totally closedminded.
It's do it my way, it's my way,the highway and all of that.
And for that group I say run,go, get a new job, get out of

(21:56):
there now, if that really is thecase and they'll never change.
They're not going to listen toyour ideas unless they're paying
you obscene amounts of moneythat you're willing to put up
with that.
Get out of that business asquickly as you can.

Speaker 1 (22:06):
Well, for that third category, you know, there's also
some old advice saying make itthink it's their idea.
Is that really the right way togo?
But that's in the second group,right?
Oh, that's the second group.

Speaker 2 (22:17):
Yeah, of like there are ways to reach them if you do
it the correct way and listen.
If we want to go back to what'sthe probably the first book
that anybody should read how toWin Friends and Influence People
right, you go back to it, makeit about them.
You show interest in the otherperson for the pure sake of
being interested in them andmaking it about especially

(22:39):
people with important titles whothink that they're overly
important to the world.
That's who you really have toplay that game with.

Speaker 1 (22:46):
Is that manipulative though?

Speaker 2 (22:48):
It's only manipulative if you're doing it
solely to try to get the thingthat you want.
But if you're doing it becauseyou really want to create a good
connection between you and thatperson, because you want a long
, lasting, good, healthyrelationship with them, I don't
think that that's beingmanipulative, right.
So you should take an interestin what your boss is interested

(23:10):
in.
You should be curious aboutwhat makes them tick.
You should want to know whatthey're involved in and what
books they're reading, and allof that, so that you can better
understand them and be able tospeak their language, to be able
, when it is time and you'rebringing them a good idea that's
good for them and good for thebusiness that they're going to
listen.
If it's only good for you, thenyeah, it's manipulative.

Speaker 1 (23:30):
Now you're going to make me take golf lessons.
Okay, what we say on the topicof CEOs what do you think
distinguishes a great leaderfrom a not so great leader?

Speaker 2 (23:45):
Great leaders are introspective, they listen, they
are lifelong learners and theyhave a clear passion or
direction about what they wantor where they want the company
to go.
I mean, they are leading, theyare pointing the ship in the
right direction, but what youdon't want is someone who's
pointing the ship.
They're also steering the ship.

(24:06):
They're also down therewhipping, you know people to to
row harder, like we don't needsomeone who's like doing all, we
just need pick, pick your lane.
You know, and are you thevisionary?
Are you the the captain?
Are you the the hard worker?

Speaker 1 (24:21):
there's different types of ceos.

Speaker 2 (24:24):
so if I'm hearing you correctly, you can wear a lot
of hats in a startup, but asyour company progresses, you
have to pick a lane.
The lane I had to pick was Ihave to be the visionary.
I have to be the person thathelps create the vision of where
we're going, get out my virtualmachete every day and help them
clear away the crap so they canactually get their jobs done.

(24:44):
But I'm not.
I'm no longer.
Am I putting my hands on thewheel.
I have hired great people to dothat.
I have a great sales leader, Ihave a great customer service
leader, I have a great market.
Like I don't need to go inthere and be.
They can ask me for help andI'll be part of those meetings
and and give them the vision,but I don't need to be like I

(25:05):
need to read every single email,I need to look at every single
PowerPoint, I need to be onevery single meet Like that.
That's.
That's what we get screwed up.

Speaker 1 (25:12):
I've worked with leaders like that in the past,
where they were micromanaging toa level that I thought must be
absolutely paralyzing.
I don't know how they couldpossibly have been reading every
email across multipledepartments.
That would actually make mecrazy.
So yeah, I get exactly whatyou're saying.

(25:36):
If somebody is looking to tryto evaluate corporate culture
let's say they're thinking aboutjoining a particular company,
chris, how effective do youthink sites like Glassdoor or
the Onion for the legal industry?
Going on those sites andreading comments from either
current employees or pastemployees, do you think those

(25:57):
are useful to try to gaugecorporate culture.

Speaker 2 (26:01):
It's a data point.
So sure you should go lookbecause if, like you know, they
have a one star rating andthere's 562 people saying don't
ever work for this company, youmight want to pay attention to
that.
But when it comes to, like mostcompanies, and it's relatively
like you can't quite tell.
There's some good, there's somebad, whatever, like I don't
know.
It's a data point.
I think it's more important.

Speaker 1 (26:22):
Review driven.
These days, before we go eatsomewhere or stay in a hotel, we
always look at the reviews.
But I always wonder when I'mreading them.
I mean, I kind of look and seeare there more positive reviews
than negative reviews?

Speaker 2 (26:39):
Does it seem like the negative reviews are a little
too personalized.
When it comes to, like, amazonreviews and yelp reviews, I
always read the three starreviews, because the one star
review are just tend to be angrypeople or maybe it was a bad
experience, is a bad thing thathappened right.
And the fives are I don't know.
Maybe people are like overly,maybe they're lying, maybe it's
like the owner's got them onthere, maybe they're overly like

(27:02):
impressed by decor and don'tcare about the food, like I
don't know.
They just feel like extremesthat I'm going to remove.
You look at the three and Itend to get a pretty good sense,
right, I do this with the booksthat I bring to book club.
I look at the threes and ifit's like, yeah, it was a good
book, but like literally I'veread this advice and like 50
other books like you know, ok,so this is probably not going to

(27:23):
be a groundbreaking book for us, you know all there's a lot of
threes are kind of saying thesame thing, like, so it's not
the angry person and it's notthe person trying to get clout
and look good by giving it afive or whatever to get clout
and look good by giving it afive or whatever.
Instead, I would say, if you'rereally worried about the culture
when you're talking to someoneand maybe hopefully multiple
people in the organization, askthem when was the last time

(27:45):
something didn't go well in theorganization at a very high
level?
And then say how did your bossor how did the CEO react?
And get them to tell you whatwas that like.
Because if they tell you theCEOo react like and, and get
them to tell you what was thatlike.
Because if they tell you theceo yelled and screamed and
people lost their job, and like,right, we don't need to know.
Oh, the ceo buys us all lunchon fridays, that's all well and

(28:07):
good.
If on monday through thursday,the ceo was throwing things at
people and like yelling andscreaming as a total tirades,
like I don't care about pizza onfriday, so we need to ask good
questions to find out, you knowlike what's what really happens
well, and that actually getsback to your point about what
your values are.

Speaker 1 (28:28):
you know, I guess if you value pizza on fridays more
than respect monday throughthursday, you're going to have a
different perspective on it.
I know condo and HOA life isnot your arena ordinarily, but I
have to tell you, you know,given our conversation, I'm
always sort of shocked when Imeet with volunteer boards,

(28:50):
because a lot of people I mean asignificant percentage of
people around the world, butparticularly in the United
States.
So we have a lot of peoplethroughout the 50 states
listening who serve on boards orlive in community associations,
whether it's an HOA or a condo.
And when you talk to the boards, many of these people have been
high power CEOs or they'veworked in corporate environments

(29:15):
, and yet they tend to get onthese boards, chris, and they
don't use any of those skillswhen they're now sitting on a
representative board making thesame sorts of decisions like how
much property insurancecoverage do we need?
Do we want to engage in thislitigation?
Some of them are even handlingbudgets in the, you know, 15, 20

(29:37):
million dollar range.
So we're not talkinginsignificant amount of money,
we're not talking insignificantdecisions which can wind up, you
know, resulting in litigationJust off the top of your head.
Any idea why, it seems.
Do people just get burned out?
Or how is it that we've gotsome really strong CEOs in their

(29:59):
past lives who get on theseboards and they don't seem to
embrace or utilize any of theskills they learned?

Speaker 2 (30:06):
Well, a lot of people .
You know managing volunteers isalways a little bit different
than like managing inside of acompany with employees, because
you know the motivations of whythey're there and what's the
purpose that they're there.
So we can solve this by havinga really clear purpose, a really
clear culture.
Really, you know that gettingthat process part.
So the people are reallyimportant.

(30:26):
Who are the people that aregoing to be helping us do the
thing that needs to be done andthat's up to generally right?
It'd be up to the community toelect and to make sure that they
are having the right peoplethat represent their values on
that board.
I'm assuming that they're goingto be elected and all of that
like that may be some part ofthat and they have a

(30:46):
responsibility.
They elect the wrong people.

Speaker 1 (30:50):
Which they do.
Sometimes there's apathy that'srampant and boards don't change
because nobody's stepping upand running or just the board,
just you know, turns over.

Speaker 2 (31:01):
But then can we have a good process, and that's
what's our purpose.
What is the ultimate goal?
What is the thing that?
Why is that board there?
What are they ultimatelysupposed to do?
What's that bare minimum thingright, and are we holding them
accountable to that?
Then we have tools andtechnology.
So then there are other thingsthat can help us do that.
So if you look at a tool, wecould very easily you could take

(31:23):
all of the notes and all thethings that happen from that
thing and have ChatGPT,summarize it in a very simple
way, and we could probablycommunicate in a much more
engaging and simple way witheveryone to help them understand
what's happening, what's goingon.
More engaging and simple waywith everyone to help them
understand what's happening,what's going on, you know,
instead of sending them thesesuper boring, you know minutes
from the meeting that no one'sever going to read.

(31:44):
Right, if we want moreengagement, we want all of that,
but the problem is that peopleoften take what they learn from
their parents and their coachesand their teachers as the model
for how to lead an organization,and that is command and control
.
That is, do what I say, becauseI say so.
That is I'm in charge.

(32:06):
So tough luck.
And that doesn't work in thecorporate world and it really
doesn't work in the volunteerworld.
It's like even worse there,because nobody has to stick
around.
They don't.
They're not getting paid rightin most cases.

Speaker 1 (32:20):
I think you really hit the nail on the head with
communication style.
So you know I also break boardsup into dysfunctional,
functional and highly functional.
And the highly functionalboards are the ones that have
frequent meetings.
You know, now there's a new lawin Florida that says you have
to have at least four meetings.
That tells you if thelegislature thought that that

(32:42):
needed to be baked into the lawthat there were a lot of
communities that were having nomeetings.
But the dysfunctional, thehighly functional communities,
they have them every month.
They keep people, you know,engaged.
They really really figure outwho on the board is their best
communicator, whether it's adirector, an officer or one of
their management professionalsand they do a good and welfare

(33:06):
report each year where they letpeople know what they've done
and what they've accomplishedand what the challenges have
been.
Now our dysfunctionalcommunities, they don't do any
of that.
So there's a lot going on.
Nobody knows what's happening,nobody's communicating with them
, and that's where things getvery, very rocky.
You mentioned a few minutes agoabout why are we here, what are

(33:29):
we doing?
How important do you thinkmission statements are?

Speaker 2 (33:33):
They're very important.
I mean, ultimately the purposeis the most important thing, and
so a mission statement can helpus figure that out.
But like you, know, let's justsay a community, you know, a
board for an HOA or somethinglike.
I would assume the purpose isto create that desired
environment or that desiredoutcome for the community.

(33:55):
Right, the community is therefor wanting a particular
experience.
Might be safety, might belifestyle, it might be a certain
aesthetic, it might be whatever.
That is that the community'sdecided.
What is that purpose?
And if we clearly define thatand it is agreed upon at at the
onset or at some reset point,then it's much easier to make
good decisions.

(34:15):
It's much easier to make gooddecisions.
It's much easier for thecommunity to say whether or not
the board is doing a good job,because if it's about that
lifestyle, then are theyultimately making those
decisions to help us reach thatgoal?
And so the mission statement,then, can be a good way to make
that happen.
The problem with missionstatements is we also make them

(34:37):
and then it goes in a drawer, ona wall and like no one ever
pays attention to it again,which is why we need to more
clearly understand why we exist.
What is the purpose of thisbody, and that should be how you
start every meeting.
That is how we should startevery communication.
The goal of this group is to dothis, and here is what happened
this month and how we addressedit.

(34:59):
And you know, whatever, and andcontinue.
It's our job as leaders tocontinue to educate and remind
people who are paying attentionto a thousand other things in
their life about that.
We're doing a good job for them.
And this is it's wildlyfrustrating as, as a leader I
mean as a CEO I had to spend somuch time communicating with
people to remind them that I wastaking care of them, I was

(35:23):
running the organizationcorrectly, that I was making
these decisions and what washappening, so that they felt
included, they felt like theyunderstood what was happening,
they, and that they feltconnected to the business so
they wouldn't get recruited awayto my competitors.
And so it was exhaustingsometimes because I'd be like,
well, can they just trust me,can they just know?
I mean, they know me right.

(35:44):
But no, I had to continue toremind them.
This is why we exist, this iswhat we're doing, this is our
goals and here's how we're doing.

Speaker 1 (36:02):
Yeah, I think some boards shy away from that, chris
, because they equate that togoverning by consensus.
You're never going to govern byconsensus, but I do believe
when you're expecting people tocomply with rules and voluminous
rules in some cases I've seen Ithink the worst was 120 pages
of rules and regulations in onecondominium client that I had
years ago you have to explainwhy you need these rules.
Why is it required that youpark head in and not back in?
There may be a good reason forit or there may be no longer a

(36:23):
good reason for it.

Speaker 2 (36:25):
So that's a good one, right?
So you need to be like flexible, like if a rule doesn't matter
anymore, but if it does, andexplaining why that's the
transparency, right.
So our goal is to maybe it'ssafe, a safety thing, and so a
part of the lifestyle thing isthat we're safety, and the
reason this rule is in placehere is why this is was put in

(36:45):
place.
So, to your point aboutconsensus it.
That's why it's super importantfor us to talk at the high
level, the very like 30,000 footlevel.
This is our purpose, this iswhy we're doing these things,
and so if those boards who areconcerned are shying away from
that could take a step up theladder and talk in more general,
larger terms, and not besending out.

(37:07):
Well, here are the five thingsthat we did this month, and
we're looking for everyone'sopinion because, you're right,
it's a disaster.

Speaker 1 (37:14):
Yeah, you're never going to make everybody happy
disaster.

Speaker 2 (37:19):
Yeah, you're never gonna make everybody happy,
right, and that can't be thegoal.
The goal is we said we careabout this and our goal is to
make sure this is happening and,to that end, this is the
decisions we made.
This is what we did.
If you want to come and talk toat the meeting, great, but,
like you know, you want to talkabout decision z.
We're not worried about that.
Our goal is up here and we haveto keep redirecting people
sometimes to that right and thatthat's ultimately what we're

(37:42):
doing.
Well, and how are we doing?

Speaker 1 (37:45):
How do you frame that messaging when you are dealing
with generational gaps in acorporate culture, whether it's
again a for-profit corporateculture or residential community
?
I mean, we see those generationgaps, um, in the corporate
world, in law firms andmanagement companies and and in

(38:06):
private residential communities.
How do you, how do you framethe messaging when you've got
very different maybe you've gotmultiple, four different
generations working together,maybe more?

Speaker 2 (38:17):
yeah, I think we're up to five now.
So, yeah, um, you know a goodfriend of mine and and fellow
speaker, uh, named matt havens.
Uh, I heard him speak one timeand he said something really I
thought was really really great.
He said you know, you're eitheryoung or you're old.
There actually isn't a lot ofthese generate, you don't worry
so much.
Like, well, I'm supposed to sayone thing to millennials and
one thing to gen x and like onething to gen z and like you

(38:39):
either know what a floppy diskis young or old right, you
either know what a floppy diskis and a pager or you don't.
Right?
You're either using chat gptevery day or you're not.
Like I mean, they're eitherkind of have like two groups and
if you think about it, andinside those groups you could
have someone who is technicallyold or technically young and

(39:02):
they are not actually that thingbecause they behave more like a
different group.
So are we making sure that forthose people who are old are
getting what they need and thepeople that are young are
getting what they need, andwe're trying to identify what
those needs are.
Is it high communication?
Is it just to feel like we aredoing what we said?
We do, that we're living up tothat purpose for that particular

(39:26):
group, Like trying tounderstand what's important to
them, but simplifying it intokind of like two general groups,
you'll be able to figure thatout right.
You'll be able to come up witha much better approach.
Or your board or the peoplethat are involved are somewhat
representative in both of thosegroups as well.

Speaker 1 (39:48):
So I know what a pager is, but I use ChatGBT
every day and I listen toCharlie at CS, so that makes me
old young.

Speaker 2 (39:57):
Yeah, old-time Charlie XCS, so that makes me
old young.
Yeah, you probably want, youwould probably want the things
that the young group wants,right, you probably would fall
as far as like their prioritiesand their value.
You'd probably fall more intheir category and and that's
why so it's not an actual agething, it's more of a your
behaviors.
And I know some young peoplethat like literally don't use
their phone and like can't put asentence together.

(40:19):
I would put them in like whatthey care about more in the old
category, but generally speaking, that's not.
Those are the outliers.

Speaker 1 (40:28):
What do you say, though, to the older workers?
That don't can't really relateto either, maybe, perhaps the
work ethic that they'reperceiving, accurately or
inaccurately, from youngerco-workers and vice versa
Younger co-workers who arereally frustrated with their

(40:50):
older co-workers who are notembracing technology.
They don't understand how toget on teams perhaps, or they
don't love it, things like that.
Is there a?
Is there a meat in the middle?

Speaker 2 (41:00):
I mean sure, but remember that we had a better
work ethic than the youngergeneration has been said every
generation since the IndustrialRevolution.
I mean, this is not a new thing.
So I always laugh when they'relike, oh well, gen Z, they don't
have the same work ethic.
Yeah, you guys said that aboutmillennials, right, and now
they're kicking your butt, solike it's the same thing.

(41:21):
What we find that's reallyhelpful is if we have two-way
mentoring, so if you can connectsomebody who's you know newer
to the organization with someonewho's been around for a long
time and have them do two-waymentoring, right.
So what is it that that person,an established person, could
learn from that younger or thatnewer I won't say younger, but

(41:42):
that newer person in theorganization that might help
them grow, and then vice versa.
So it's not just that one-waystreet mentoring, it's not that.

Speaker 1 (41:49):
I love that.
I've never heard that before,but you're right, there is an
opportunity for two-waymentoring.

Speaker 2 (41:55):
Yeah, yeah, Microsoft does a fantastic job with this.
This is like a regular programof theirs, and so it really
helps them get on the same pageto understand each other better
and for them both to get whatthey need.
I'm sure someone who's beenaround a long time would love to
understand more about AI andchat, GPT and whatever else that

(42:17):
they may be struggling to learn.
There's a newer technology ornewer thing, or maybe it's just
how to talk to that generationin a better way.
And that person who's coming inis like well, how do I navigate
the business?
And I don't understand.
You know why the company doeswhat it does.
I mean, there's so much thereto help them both be successful.

Speaker 1 (42:34):
You mentioned a few minutes ago when we all started
working from home during theshutdowns and everybody was like
, how is this going to work?
And I think across the board, alot of companies saw actually
increased productivity.
Obviously there were pros andcons and there was a lot of fear
back then.
Obviously during the shutdown,I know, at least in the legal

(42:57):
industry.
I think this is true increatives too, because my
daughter is out in LA and in herindustry they're wanting them
to come back four or five days aweek as well.
First of all, let's talk aboutthose companies that are still
allowing work from home, atleast a hybrid model.
What skills does a leader needto effectively manage a remote

(43:20):
team?
Do you think?

Speaker 2 (43:21):
Well, they need to understand that remote teams are
very different than having ateam all in the office.
So you're going to have tolearn some new skills because
you can't just do what you didbefore.
Meetings are different,interactions are different, the
signposts are different.
You have to realize that we'regoing to have to re-engineer and

(43:44):
shameless plug, but I wrote anentire book about this, because
it's a lot.
It's not just like I can tellyou one thing and you'll be like
oh now I know how to do aremote team.
There's a lot that is very,very different that you have to
do.
And so that's one thing.
But number two is and this istrue of all leaders is you need
to be wildly introspective.
You need to be willing to lookat yourself every single day and

(44:06):
say what is the story I'mtelling myself?
Where am I falling short?
Where could I be doing better?
How can I get my people to helpme fill in those gaps?
Right, so that it's not aproblem for the organization.
And then number three is to bea lifelong learner.
So great leaders are willing toconstantly learn, that do read

(44:27):
books and that do want to go toconferences, learn new things
and do want to you know, meettheir peers in different
settings and find out whatthey're doing to be better and
then take that back and go backand be willing to experiment and
try.
And, lastly, to listen toreally talk to their people and
listen to what they need.

(44:48):
We were shocked to find out.
We listened to our employees.
We had Walden University camein and studied us for an entire
year and what we found out wasthat when we were not remote,
they valued personal connection.
Of the top five things thatwere important to them, personal

(45:08):
connection was number one,meaning I connect with people at
work.
I got my work buddies.
My manager likes me, like it'sa lot because you're, it's your
life when you're in an office,like you, all those people
around, like you better getalong with your teammates, you
better get along with people atwork or like you're going to be
pretty miserable when you workfrom home.
Personal connection is stillimportant, but it's now number

(45:29):
five on the list of five.
Number one is now work-lifebalance, which, by the way, is
number five when you work in anoffice the ability to manage
your own schedule, the autonomyto be able to manage your own
schedule, but also the you needhelp from your company and your
boss to not overwork, becausesuddenly, when you're in your

(45:50):
own home office, you startoverdoing it.

Speaker 1 (45:54):
That's exactly the pushback I want to give you a
little bit on that, because Ithink the bloom is off the rose.
A little bit for work from homefor some people.
Bit for work from home for somepeople, because there was just
no delineation between this ismy work, I'm at work right now
and now I.
Now I'm home, I, you know whatI've left the office, maybe on

(46:15):
the ride home.
I've decompressed during mycommute.
I walk in the door.
I don't feel as compelled tohop back on my.
This isn't me, by the way.
I'm always compelled to get onmy email, but for normal people
I don't feel compelled to get onmy email to midnight.
I imagine there are somesignificant percentage of people
that feel like I do.
Then For a while I thought itwas great, I didn't need to.

(46:37):
You know I didn't need to dressup to go to my law office.
But now I'm kind of wantingthat.
I really want to get back intothe office.
I want to be able to pop intomy partner's office next door
and talk to him or her.
Dress up a little bit.
I don't think I want to.
I don't think anybody I shouldsay most people want to go back
to five days a week, butcertainly for me, working from

(47:01):
home all the time, it lost a lotof its appeal.
What do you think about that?

Speaker 2 (47:12):
So when we helped our people create better boundaries
, we use some strategies fromAtomic Habits.
It's a great book of like hey,if it's five o'clock when you're
done, close your laptop, closeyour office door.
Like those physical acts couldhelp us shut off.
Just like getting in your carand driving late from the office
creates that natural click oflike okay, I'm done with work
now.
Um, they needed that help.
Um, it's really nice to havethe flexibility of like well, I
got to take my kid, you know, tothe doctor for two hours.

(47:34):
I want to come back and add twohours on.
But, like, making sure thatwe're having those conversations
of like, well, were you able tokeep that within reason and not
suddenly be working all nightlong, checking in with our
people to really see how they'redoing, how they're feeling, are
they being burnt out, and thentalking to them about why.
And we often discover, well,they're working too much.

(47:58):
They're doing too much.
So the number one problem I hadwith my remote employees was
they were working too much,which was both a legal exposure
because were they working morehours than what they were
actually clocking me for andtelling me they were working and
was I putting myself in apotential problem, to have them
come back and say well, I know,you told me I only worked eight
hours, but I was working 12hours every single day.

Speaker 1 (48:16):
Wait an hour wait right, and that's a potential
lawsuit huge especially being incalifornia.

Speaker 2 (48:22):
I was a california like huge right.
So that was one concern.
But the second concern was morethe burnout, one of like there
may be that occasional time whenyou need to put in a little
extra, but like if that'sconsistently your response,
you've got a problem.
Man, how do we fix that?
And 99% of the time it was.
They were doing activities theydidn't need to do.
They were worrying about stuffthey didn't need to worry about.

(48:43):
We had to help them prioritizeand declutter and get refocused
and ultimately they'd end upbeing far more productive and a
much better employee at eighthours than they were doing the
12 hours where they were justall over the road.

Speaker 1 (48:56):
Distractions, chris, like pets, children, elderly
parents living in the home thatneed help, landscapers outside
construction, next door.
Do any of those distractions?

Speaker 2 (49:10):
play.
Not necessarily because at theoffice you have people bumping
into your desk coming up to youasking you to meet and there's
just as many distractions atwork.
I think there's more at workthan there is at home.
But you have to be reallyintentional.
We would coach people likelisten, you know, maybe don't
you know.
You can coach people likelisten, you know, maybe don't.
You can't really like work inyour office and have your
toddler there every day Likethat's not gonna work.

(49:32):
You're gonna need to figure outagain.
You treat your work like youwould if you were at an office.
Right, and try to remove someof those things.
But we always suggested topeople to do either like 45 on,
15 off, or use the pomodorotechnique of I think it's 20 or
25 on and then like put yourhead down and sprint and go hard

(49:52):
.
For me I could do.
45 minutes is great.
Then get up for 15 minutes,check email, get your coffee you
could deal with a gardener movethe laundry over, pet the dog.
Come back 45 minutes again.
Um, some people need that 20minute.
25 minutes was all they coulddo.
That was the right equation forthem and that means turning

(50:13):
slack off, not having your emailopen like we would tell them
turn that stuff off.
Do your highly focused work,then turn that stuff back on.
Just that little shift reallyhelped them not to be so
distracted and all over theplace.

Speaker 1 (50:26):
Is there a societal divide on this, though?
Because some people obviouslycan't work from home.
You're a nurse.
You're not going to be able towork from home unless you're a
nurse making well.
Even then, you're making housevisits to other people.
You're in a landscaping company.
You don't have the option towork from home.
What do you say to people, interms of their work-life balance

(50:48):
, who don't have the option towork from home?

Speaker 2 (50:51):
Yeah, I mean, there are jobs that absolutely cannot
be remote.
In your example of nurse, Imean, I've met with tons of
telemedicine people.
I've met with nurses anddoctors over the internet.
Um, you know, so there are alot of advancements and things
that can be better.
But like, listen, if your jobis to pick up the thing and put
it in the thing, like at awarehouse, yeah you're.

(51:13):
Maybe one day your job will beto control the ai robot, I don't
know.
Um, instead of picking up thething.
But for right now, yes, thereare jobs.
A waiter is going to, you know,until we've come up with a
robot to take your job away,like you're going to be the
waiter in the restaurant doingthe thing with the patrons, and
so, you know, that's a choice.
You may want that kind of job.

(51:34):
That may be the job that youcan get right now.
And a lot of companies strugglewith, well, what's fair?
And you know, what we try to dois come up with policies and
compensation that's fair, basedon that job.
And you know, sometimes it'slike, listen, you can't be
remote and someone else getsthat advantage.
How do we, how do we make itfair for them?

(51:55):
What is that they get by beingin in the office.
That's different, right?
Maybe they get meals, maybethey get you know, there's some
other advantage because they aredriving and they're coming.
Maybe we pay for their gas,their parking or give them an
auto allowance.
There might be some differentcompensation for them Because,
again to your point, there arepeople who want to be in that
situation and there are peoplewho want to be remote.

(52:18):
Also, I find that I got the mostamazing people by being able to
be as flexible as we could be,by allowing them to not only be
remote but to live wherever theheck they wanted to live, to
work, depending on the job, stayat home, moms, mostly moms.
There was a few dads that couldnot get a job because we would

(52:52):
have let them work six hours andnot eight hours.
We would let them be not fulltime, we would let them, you
know, and still give thembenefits.
So we would do all kinds oflike crazy things because we
could get this incredible person, because it didn't fit into a
mold that all the othercompanies had.
Well, it can't work.

(53:12):
Full time can't work for us,right?
Can't work.
Nine to five can't work for us.
And we were like, listen, youneed to work for four hours and
then like you need to take threehours off because you got your
kids or whatever, and they gotto work four hours.
Fine, I don't care, right.

Speaker 1 (53:26):
That's how I became a condo attorney.
So really it is so I would hadbeen working in downtown Miami
at a boutique real estate lawfirm and then I had my first
child, ryan, and I said I justdon't want to be working full
time, I don't want to keepcommuting.
I had I was living in Aventuraat the time and I was contacted
by the firm that I'm now apartner at, becker, and they had

(53:50):
a flex time program, chris, andthey had a number of female
attorneys who were working.
I was able to work 10 to 15hours a week and it was flexible
and it's really what kept meWell.
First of all, it put me on thispath.
Up until that point I hadn'tbeen a condo attorney.
I hadn't even contemplatedgoing into that practice of law.

Speaker 2 (54:13):
But it was fantastic.

Speaker 1 (54:14):
So to your point that I wouldn't be doing what I've
been doing all these years if ithadn't been for that, for the
foresight, this firm had to sayhey, there's a significant
percentage of female attorneys,and maybe even male attorneys,
who want to work flex time andright now they need that

(54:35):
work-life balance between thenumber of hours they can commit
to their legal career and thenumber of hours they want to
commit to raising the baby rightnow.
So I agree with you.
I think flexibility in a menuof choices is ideal.

Speaker 2 (54:51):
Yeah, I mean we used to pick up fantastic people that
were spouses of military andbecause, again, if they needed
to move often they would getlike their spouse would get
reassigned somewhere else orwhatever.
Their situation could get weirdif they were sent away for a

(55:15):
month or two overseas and thensuddenly their childcare thing
got shifted.
And so if we committed to themof like you need to change, if
you're going to get moved bases,we will continue to pay you.
You take that time, take thatweek to go move your family from
this base to that base, we'regoing to keep paying you.
You're not going to lose yourjob, right, and it doesn't count
as vacation.
And they were, they were soappreciative of that, like if

(55:35):
someone ever came knocking attheir door to come and recruit
them away, they flip them thebird and say I'm never leaving
this job, ever, right't touchedon loyalty.

Speaker 1 (55:44):
What creates that loyalty?
I meant just what you describedthe flexibility.
Are there other factors thatcreate that level of loyalty
with your?

Speaker 2 (55:53):
employees.
I mean, it's the golden ruleright Of like treat people how
you want to be treated.
I mean, if I had this crazysituation to happen in my life,
I want the company to help meand do whatever it could to make
it easy for me during that timeso that I can continue to work
for them.
The company makes it hard forme and wants to punish me and

(56:13):
wants to look down on me andwants to, you know, not
basically do everything it canto make this hard situation
harder.
I got no loyalty right and wealso can create loyalty by
asking our people greatquestions and meetings, asking
how they're really showing up,asking how they're leaving the
meeting, and when we discoverthat there's something going on
in their lives, that's when weneed to jump in hard and say,

(56:36):
hey, let's talk about this.
How can I help you?
Like, oh, your grandma hascancer, like you know, let's
figure out how the team can helpyou, support you.
It's when there's that moment tohave empathy, that moment to
help you need to jump in withtwo feet and just be all over
that and I just get rid of thestupid stuff.
Like no one needs you to beconstantly doing like little

(56:58):
tiny things, those don't matter.
I mean, I guess they kind ofmatter.
I don't want to be like we'llthrow it all away, but it
matters how you show up whensomething's when that person
really needs it.
I think that's how you createloyalty.
You create loyalty by beingvery transparent about what
you're trying to do and whereyou're trying to go and if it's
actually working right so peoplecan believe in the company

(57:20):
because they actually know whatto believe in right.
That creates loyalty.
And then also to be perfectlyupfront and honest that we all
know you're on the bus right nowand you may not be on the bus
forever, and that's okay.
We don't expect you don't havethat toxic thing of like you
you're gonna be an employeeforever.

(57:41):
You're never gonna leave uslike's silly.
We should be trying to developyou and help you and if one day
you run out of runway with us,we're going to be really sad you
left, but we're going tounderstand and that's okay.

Speaker 1 (57:53):
So if you handle it in a gracious manner, you set
yourself up for referrals in thefuture, the potential to
continue the relationship.
Like I've seen, if we haveattorneys who leave, there's an
ability, depending on where theygo, for us to continue to
maintain a relationship that'sproductive for them and for us.

(58:13):
But what you're talking aboutChris is a level of
introspection again.
So some companies lament thefact that you know, oh, we
treated them well and then theyleft without any sort of
introspection as to were theyreally treated well?
Did the company really step upwhen they had a personal issue
and they needed help?

Speaker 2 (58:34):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (58:35):
Yeah, and they needed some flexibility.
You know, I know you canaddress this better than I, but
I read certain articles whereEuropean countries may adapt a
more flexible corporate culturethan America.
Do you think that America istrending more toward, you know,
post pandemic, where we now havemore flexible working

(58:55):
arrangements?
Do you think that the trend isgoing to be, with American
companies maybe embracing a moreflexible culture along the
lines of some Europeancounterparts?

Speaker 2 (59:07):
The good news is the most amount of people have the
highest amount of access toflexible work whether that's
remote or hybrid or whateverthan they've ever had since the
Industrial Revolution.
Covid is a blip of well.
We had to all do somethingbecause of a particular reason.
But that aside, currently wehave the most amount of people

(59:29):
who have access to that, andprior to that, it was just
managers and salespeople thathad access to that kind of
arrangement.
So it's pretty remarkable theamount of people that actually
have access to it now and thatwill only grow and get better.
Yes, there's going to be thesependulum shifts and these tech
companies are doing differentthings and people are figuring
that out, but we also know that,like more small businesses are

(59:51):
allowing it than ever have everhappened, small business is
actually where most people work.
Most people don't work for alarge tech company, so it's
there Now in Europe and Irelandand different places.
They've literally made it likea right that you know they have
hard-coded flexible work intothere.
They've made it where, if youhave particular disabilities or

(01:00:15):
needs that, you have access tothat and it's not a choice and
we can debate that all day longback and forth, but you know,
flexible work allows us to havethese different groups of people
I talked about, you know, stayat home parents.
I talked about, you know,military spouses.
I didn't get to.
We also had a lot of people whoare physically disabled.

(01:00:35):
They were neurodivergent, thatcould not, for whatever reason,
get to an office or exist in anoffice on a consistent basis,
and this allowed those greatpeople who couldn't get jobs
anywhere else that again werelike fantastic and super loyal
to us, to work for us.
So is it a little bit of hardwork?

(01:00:55):
Yes, is it harder than tryingto recruit all of the same
people that your competitorswant?
Absolutely not.
I think it's easier.
I think it's a better way to go.

Speaker 1 (01:01:05):
I think your overarching message is
flexibility is a lot moreeffective than rigidity.
You mentioned AI a while ago.
Do you think artificialintelligence has the ability to
improve corporate culture?
Are you looking at a moredystopian future related to it?

Speaker 2 (01:01:29):
Both I'm thinking about both right.
So on the dystopian side, itcould be that actually it screws
everything up because we don'tbelieve that anyone actually
understands or is reading orhearing us, because the AI is
doing all this summarizing anddoing all this work for us.
I'm like, are we now back to?
If I'm not meeting with you inperson, I'm not physically in
your presence, I can't believe,and you can't believe, that

(01:01:51):
we're actually having aconversation Like that's the
dystopian problem.
We'll see how that gets solved.
But on the good side, it's well.
It's actually a lot easier tobe transparent, it's a lot
easier to measure, it's a loteasier to do all the things that
I'm telling you to do by havingthis great tool right.
I mean you could take the notes, you could record the the

(01:02:13):
senior level meeting right, andthen you could put that in chat,
gpt, and say create atransparent, you know, like
summary or bullet point of thereally large topics and outcomes
that we talked about.
That I can send to the wholecompany Like that's a two second
thing, and now I can be wildlytransparent to everybody.
I can review it to make sure itwasn't anything I shouldn't

(01:02:33):
have, shouldn't be saying rightat this point and and it it
wasn't hard, whereas when I wasdoing it it was hard.
I had to write that emailmyself.
You know it was a lot of work.
Now I have a tool that willhelp me do it in a way easier
way.
But like but it's not taking ahuman capital business.
We all really are in humancapital business.

Speaker 1 (01:03:09):
So it really does boil down to not losing that,
the humanity of what we do.
Chris, is there anything Ishould have asked you?
That I didn't ask you aboutwhat you do, your keynote
speeches, your focus right now?

Speaker 2 (01:03:24):
No, no, I think you, we talked about some great stuff
and I always like to remindeveryone.
Well, I mean two things.
One, if anyone is interested insome additional resources, want
to know more about how to havebetter meetings, how to survey
your people better, if you'reinterested in anything like that
, you can text 33777 and justput my name, chris, as the

(01:03:45):
message, and I will send you afree PDF and you'll get my
newsletter and all that if youwant it.
If you don't, you can opt outof that.
But the other thing is toremember what you focus on grows
, and that has been somethingthat has fundamentally changed
my perspective as a leader.
I focus on the negative.
I'm going to get more negative.

(01:04:06):
I focus on what's not working.
I'm more is not going to workand it just seems like weird
hippie, I don't know, like youknow spiritual, like mumbo jumbo
, but like I can't argue withthe fact that when I focus on
what's working and I focus onwhat's good and I really put my
effort towards that, I get moreof that and I'm happier and that

(01:04:28):
grows and I start to deal withproblems and issues, but those
seem to go away and kind ofdissipate and figure themselves
out most of the time.
So if you're struggling, gofocus on the good stuff.
Go get curious about what yourbest people are doing.
Go talk to your best clients.
Go do more of that and you'llprobably be a lot happier.

Speaker 1 (01:04:45):
Great advice, as we are on the eve of probably 50%
of this country being unhappyone way or the other.
Considering how divided we areFolks, I can't recommend highly
enough reading Chris's books thePower of Company Culture and
Remote Work and I can alreadysee you would be a fantastic
keynote speaker for some of thelarger management companies who

(01:05:08):
have to deal not only with theirinternal corporate culture but
all these other privateresidential community cultures
that they contend with.
So I hope your phone ringsafter this episode.
You've been fantastic.
I could talk to you all day,but I want to thank you for
joining us.

Speaker 2 (01:05:23):
All right.
Thank you so much, Donna.

Speaker 1 (01:05:25):
Thank you for joining us today.
Don't forget to follow and rateus on your favorite podcast
platform, or visitTakeItToTheBoardcom for more
ways to connect.