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Group CEO of eWater Group Michael Wilson has an extraordinary range of backgrounds: he’s a political scientist, classical musician, public servant, national security specialist, Australian Diplomat, and Humanitarian and International Development Advisor all rolled into one, with over 35 years’ experience across these fields. He’s run for parliament, negotiated international environmental treaties, and trained as a classical baritone opera singer.
Beyond his professional accomplishments, Michael reveals his lifelong passion for music—particularly choral singing with Canberra's adult choir The Resonants. His description of being "surrounded by sound" while singing reveals striking parallels to his approach to water management: understanding how individual contributions fit within complex, interconnected systems.
eWater Group is an organisation dedicated to improving water management across Australia and internationally and is jointly owned by all Australian governments. It’s comprised of two divisions: eWater Solutions, who provide science-based water management expertise and tools, and the Australian Water Partnership, working closely with the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade to support a range of water management and governance initiatives in collaboration with developing countries in South Asia, South-East Asia, and the Pacific.
Today, Michael and our host, Dr. Siwan Lovett, are members of the Resonants, one of Canberra’s foremost adult choirs, and they've been singing with the Resonants for over 25 years. Their upcoming performance in partnership with the Australian River Restoration Centre, Riversong, is a unique fundraising concert for the long-term future of our rivers, celebrating what waterways mean to us in Australia and across the globe. Riversong is a celebration of the river’s heartbeat, and together, we can ensure that the rivers which have nourished our communities, biodiversity and landscapes continue to flow strong and clean, sustaining generations to come.
Join us for a transformative night of music and meaning. Riversong is on the 17th of May 2025 at the Gandel Atrium, National Museum of Australia. Book now to secure your tickets!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michael Wilson (00:00):
Singing as part of a choir, I think, is an
experience unlike any other.
Being amongst a group of peopleand surrounded by sound and
tuning in not only to your ownmusical line but everything else
that's going on in all of theother musical lines around you
(00:20):
and understanding how whatyou're doing fits into that and
contributes and adds to it, isquite a magical experience.
Standing in the centre of sound, particularly when everything's
working well, when the partsare all well balanced, when the
music's blending well, wheneverybody who's singing really
(00:41):
gets what the composer is tryingto do and really gets what the
director is trying to achievethat's pretty special.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (01:00):
Hello and welcome to Take Me to the River,
sharing stories and inspiringhope with extraordinary people
who care for our rivers.
I' m your host, Dr.
Siwan Lovett.
Today I'm speaking with myfriend, michael Wilson, group
CEO of the eWater Group.
Ewater Group is an organisationdedicated to improving water
management across Australia andinternationally and is jointly
(01:23):
owned by all Australiangovernments.
It's comprised of two divisionseWater Solutions, who provide
science-based water managementexpertise and tools, and the
Australian Water Partnership,working closely with the
Department of Foreign Affairsand Trade to support a range of
water management and governanceinitiatives in collaboration
with developing countries inSouth Asia, southeast Asia and
(01:46):
the Pacific.
Michael has an extraordinaryrange of backgrounds he's a
political scientist, classicalmusician, public servant,
national security specialist,Australian diplomat and
humanitarian and internationaldevelopment advisor all rolled
into one, with over 35 yearsexperience across all these
fields.
He's run for Parliament,negotiated international
(02:10):
environmental treaties andtrained as a classical baritone
opera singer.
The thing I love most aboutMichael is that he and I sing
together in a choir called theResonance.
This is one of Canberra'sforemost adult choirs and we've
been singing for over 25 years.
Our upcoming performance, riverSong, is a unique fundraising
concert for the long-term futureof our rivers, celebrating what
(02:30):
waterways mean to us inAustralia and across the globe.
We're going to talk to Michaelnow about his amazing background
as well as his love for singingas we explore his world at the
eWater Group.
It's a real pleasure to be herewith you, Michael.
Thanks so much for coming onthe program.
Michael Wilson (02:46):
Thanks, Siwan, for the opportunity.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (02:48):
Always a pleasure to talk to someone who
loves water and who lovessinging, but we'll come to that
a little bit later on.
You've had a really long careerin policy, international aid
and development.
I want to start by asking youwhat are some of the lessons
you've learnt in that reallyinteresting background work that
you've done for so long?
Michael Wilson (03:05):
Well, I suppose I've learnt that I'm principally
driven by values.
So working on environment,working in international
development and povertyreduction, working on
sustainable water resourcemanagement All of these things
are things that I thinkcontribute to making the world a
(03:26):
better place.
I hope, and I also takepleasure in bringing the next
generation along, so I've alwayspaid attention to bringing on
and mentoring, I hope, andcoaching the next generation of
leaders and managers and peoplewho can do innovative thinking
(03:47):
around all of these endeavours.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (03:49):
So can you tell us a bit about some of the
work that you've done inSoutheast Asia, which many
people may have just been to asa place on holiday, but you've
actually lived and worked there.
Michael Wilson (03:58):
Yeah, so I've worked on Southeast Asia really
since about the year 2000.
And, of course, over that timethere's been a tremendous amount
of change and a tremendousamount of economic growth in
that region, and prettyspectacular poverty reduction
has been achieved as well.
One thing that's interestingabout mainland Southeast Asia,
(04:22):
where I've spent most of myworking life and I lived and
worked in Vietnam and covered arange of other countries from
Hanoi, including Cambodia, Laos,Myanmar and Thailand for a
number of years is that theinterconnections between these
countries are really importantto understand.
(04:45):
They're important to thesecountries' development and
future, but they also, theseinterconnections, go back
thousands and thousands of years.
And one area of interconnectionis around water, key river
systems that really keep theeconomies and the peoples of
these countries alive andfunctioning and give them their
(05:09):
economic heft production of lotsof materials and goods that are
traded internationally.
But also for the many people inand along these river systems
who still live fairlysubsistence lifestyles, it's a
matter of survival in terms ofhow healthy these rivers are and
(05:30):
how sensibly the sharedresource is managed.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (05:33):
Yeah, I think that's a really good point
because you know, as you say,those countries are linked, just
like our Murray-Darling Basinis or the Great Barrier Reef is,
but you've got that hugely longcultural history and divide to
negotiate.
The other thing I'm interestedin hearing from you about is
that when I've been asked toprovide advice to developing
countries or to areas where ariver's in dire straits, it's
(05:56):
very hard for us to do so whenyou're dealing with so much
poverty.
People just want to be able todrink water.
They don't necessarily careabout a new species of bird
being supported or reeds.
How do you actually walk thatsort of road of being empathic
and understanding about povertybut also try to get wins for the
environment?
Michael Wilson (06:25):
and this is as much the case in Australia as it
is in the Mekong or the Arawatisystems in mainland Southeast
Asia.
They actually want a healthyenvironment as well.
They understand that if youchop down the last tree for
firewood, that's kind of anend-of-day story.
So local people along thesesystems are the most aware of
(06:47):
the changes in their environment, based on what developments
have happened along the system,what changes have happened in
the prevailing climate, and sothey're a very, very important
source of information, as wellas being the key stakeholder
group around decision making.
So sometimes we assume thatpeople who are living right on
(07:11):
the edge of extreme povertymight not be worried about
long-term futures.
They're worried about where thenext meal is coming from.
Now.
That's actually a falseassumption.
Now, that's actually a falseassumption.
People in their communities arereally concerned about what is
necessary for them to surviveand their descendants to survive
(07:33):
long term, so they're oftenvery conscious of the slow
changes that happen in terms ofincremental impacts of
development and of things likeclimate change.
So you know.
It's important to involve themvery closely in decision making
(07:54):
and to engage them in discussionabout what options there might
be for them to take more controlover management issues.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (08:03):
I think that's really important.
It's not something I've oftenheard either.
Maybe we use it as a bit of acop-out sometimes, but to
daylight, the fact that we'remaking assumptions, I think is
actually really powerful andsomething I'll certainly think
more about.
What are some of the examplesthat you have of work undertaken
in Southeast Asia where you'veactually seen really good
(08:23):
engagement quote unquote goodengagement of local community in
their waterways.
Michael Wilson (08:28):
So one of the things that's happening in the
international developmentbusiness right at the moment is
a much stronger focus on locallyled development, on not only
engaging those for whom you aretargeting your development
programming, but learning fromthem and gathering their
(08:52):
experience and lessons and, inmany cases, bringing those back
home to the Australian contextas well.
So, through the Australian WaterPartnership, which is supported
by the Australian Aid Program,through the Department of
Foreign Affairs and Trade, asyou said, we've done quite a few
projects where really startingat the grassroots has been
(09:14):
fundamental to these programsdesign and success.
So, for instance, in Vietnam, weworked on a program which was
engaging people at village levelto both learn and exercise
their knowledge aroundgroundwater use and how
(09:35):
groundwater aquifers recharge.
We've worked with localcommunities in places like
Vietnam, Cambodia and Thailandon what's called nature-based
solutions to water management,and they're very useful in terms
of flood control in highrainfall instances and that's
(09:56):
happening more often as climatechange advances but also have
the opportunity to reinvigorateecosystems and biodiversity and
can be very, very cost effective, particularly when you compare
these nature-based solutions tothe old ways of doing things,
engineering solutions, whichinvolved a lot of sort of
(10:18):
concrete and changes of waterlevel.
But if you don't do that withthe engagement of local
communities, you both fail togather their knowledge of how
these water systems have workedover hundreds of years.
Often, but you also riskdisrupting their lives and
(10:38):
livelihoods.
So when you engage localcommunities in a meaningful way,
in the spirit of partnership,where everybody is communicating
and operating in a co-designrelationship, everybody should
win.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (10:56):
Yeah, I mean it sounds a wonderful approach.
How much do these projectsactually cost to resource?
Because I know it's one of thebig things that we like to do in
our work at the AustralianRiver Restoration Centre.
But there is very rarely a boxon a grant form that says form
relationships, build trust.
How about your area?
(11:16):
Is that more widely acceptedthat?
That has to be a part of it ifwe're going to get success.
Michael Wilson (11:21):
Yeah, I really think it is, and I think it's an
area where lots of othersectors can learn.
So with our flagshipinternational development
program, the Australian WaterPartnership the P stands for
partnership and that's actuallywhat matters the most we're
bringing Australian skills andexpertise where that's needed to
the table.
(11:42):
But the partnership part of AWPis crucial and that's both
working with Australian partnersabout how to apply their
expertise and experience towater management and governance
challenges in developingcountries and in the particular
(12:02):
context of developing countrieswhere resources are usually by
definition fairly scarce butthen working with local
communities in that partnershipas well to develop responses to
these challenges which arelocally appropriate, which are
affordable and which aresustainable over time.
(12:22):
And if you don't successfullydo that, I mean I'd have to say
in the 50 years or 70 years ofinternational development
experience, lots of money hasbeen probably wasted because
local communities haven't reallyhad any say.
The sorts of solutions that wemight think are appropriate in
(12:43):
an Australian context just don'twork in those contexts.
It's about cost-effectivenessand value for money as much as
it is about the right solutionsin the right context which
really address the need of localcommunities and the environment
that they depend on.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (13:01):
So we're hearing a lot about nature-based
solutions and some of ourlisteners might be going oh,
it's just the latest buzzword.
What is a nature-based solution?
Or an example Sure.
Michael Wilson (13:11):
So we do a lot of work in and around
nature-based solutions, bothinternationally, through our
work with the Australian WaterPartnership, but also
domestically and even locally inCanberra.
So, aside from eWater Source,which is the National
Hydrological Modelling Platformthat eWater is the custodian and
(13:33):
manager of, we are designersand custodians of a range of
other tools, and one of those isa tool called MUSIC, which is a
tool to assist water-sensitiveurban design, particularly
around the management ofstormwater in urban environments
and putting that at the centreof planning for new urban
(13:58):
development and green spaces inand around new urban development
.
And that involves things, likeyou know you may have, in an
Australian city grown up arounda big concrete lined stormwater
drain where, every time itfloods, water flows down at 30
kilometres an hour, disappearsunderground somewhere and goes
(14:22):
out to sea and takes lots of thetopsoil with it.
Now, if you look at nature-basedsolutions, you can do things
like install and design systemsfor debris traps to slow down
water in retention ponds andestablish new wetlands, which
are, of course, platforms forbiodiversity and platforms for
(14:47):
urban recreation opportunities.
So that's one of the areas andin a developing country context,
in a city megacity, forinstance, like Bangkok, where
we've done quite a lot of workon nature-based solutions with
Water Sensitive Cities,australia and the Australian
Water Partnership, you've gotthese new urban parks springing
(15:08):
up in a city that is surrounded,in fact built upon water.
You've got traffic calmingopportunities in installing
strips of parkland where therewere previously bits of concrete
jungle.
So it can be quite exciting andcreative.
But again, compared to oldengineering solutions, the old
(15:34):
technocratic solutions of damsand dikes and those sorts of
large-scale constructions can bea lot cheaper and provide many,
many more benefits.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (15:46):
So looking at music then, which I love, given
our connection later on to ourchoir.
Michael Wilson (15:51):
Total coincidence.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (15:53):
How beautiful is that?
Is a model like that able to go?
So, if we use this engineeringdesign, this is the likely
outcome.
If we use, say this,nature-based approach, this is
the likely outcome.
If we use, say, this,nature-based approach, this is
the likely outcome, so thatpeople can choose between
different scenarios.
Is that the power of modelling?
As you see it?
Michael Wilson (16:13):
Yeah, that is basically the power of modelling
.
So the first thing to get rightwith modelling as far as you
can get everything completelycorrect and accurate is to
predict the behavior of theenvironment within which any
water system works.
So, whether that's in an urbanstormwater environment or
whether it's in a river basinenvironment, once you've been
(16:35):
able to establish that, based onthe best data and science
that's possible, then then thethen the designers can come to
the table and you can runscenarios through those software
tools to see the likelybehaviour of these water
(16:56):
management systems based ondifferent approaches and
different designs for floodmanagement, for slowing water
flow, for river systems thatvarious operators and industries
and users need to draw on.
That's the whole point.
But it's important also forthose tools and systems and the
(17:21):
data upon which they're based tobe entirely objective,
fact-based, data-based, becausethat's the way that you're going
to build community trust in thereliability of that data and
therefore the reliability of theresponses that are then based
upon that data.
(17:42):
It's all about decision-makingupon that data.
It's all about decision making.
So as a political scientisttalking to non-water experts and
I'm no water expert I put thisin the language of these are
decision support systems, in thesame way as you would establish
a decision support system inputting a curriculum together
(18:04):
for high schools, or a decisionsupport system in setting up a
community health service in aregional area.
It's just the same.
You need data and you needscience and you need people with
the relevant expertise, andthen you bring the designers and
the people with options to thetable.
(18:25):
So that's another aspect ofworking in partnership in water
resource management.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (18:33):
That's a great overview.
Last year I collaborated on apaper.
I went to an AustralianFreshwater Science Society
conference and as a socialscientist, you know some
sessions are more interestingthan others.
I don't necessarily want tolook at a microscopic larvae and
get excited, but hey, otherpeople do and that's fine.
I decided that I would go tothe modelling session because
(18:54):
that is one that I would nevernormally go to.
It's always been something thatI've had community say to me I
just don't trust it.
It's a black box.
You're just putting stuff inand it spits out the other end.
I learned so much in thatsession and we had a really
great conversation and I wasthen invited to work with them
on a paper, collaborative paper.
The premise was I had modelingpeople saying I need to be a
(19:17):
better communicator and Iactually said, no, you don't,
you are a modeler, you just haveto be open to working with
people who can interpret whatyou're doing.
I think we often expect peopleto be everything.
It's like saying, shu-an, youknow all about water.
You go and run Michael's musicmodel.
I don't think so, so we'replacing a lot of expectations on
(19:38):
people to do that.
Have you got some examples inyour work, where you have people
who do that synthesis, who whodo that interpretation, or does
that come through?
Is that the nature of thepartnerships that you've been
talking about?
Michael Wilson (19:51):
So we do.
On staff, we have a range ofpractitioners with different
skill sets.
So our software developers andarchitects are very, very clever
people with a level ofknowledge and, frankly, a
vocabulary that I don't thinkI'll ever be able to match.
But because they've worked inthis organisation, most of them
(20:16):
for quite a while and we are asmall outfit they, in their
(20:38):
direct communications with ourclients and customers, know that
they need to be using languagethat resonates and is
comprehended by not only theusers in our customer
organisations but those who thenreceive the information and are
invested with thedecision-making responsibilities
information and are investedwith the decision making
responsibilities and they arenot necessarily experts,
particularly when you get toministers.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (20:51):
What you mean.
They're not experts, michael,on everything.
Michael Wilson (20:54):
Some of them aren't experts on absolutely
everything Good to know.
And it's really one of thethings that drives the way we
engage with our client andcustomer base and our owners,
who are all Australiangovernments.
So our products and servicesare used across the country by
water management agencies, sothe policy departments, but also
(21:17):
the utilities and theregulators, and both our
software developers and ourhydrologists.
Our water scientists are prettyskilled at speaking to
different audiences.
Obviously, they can speak welland convincingly to their fellow
(21:37):
PhD hydrologists, but they'renow pretty good at talking to
broader audiences.
But it's one of the importantthings that is at the centre of
a very exciting project thatwe're embarking on for the
modernisation of the NationalHydrological Modelling Platform,
which is, as I said before,ewater Source, developed over 35
(22:00):
years by hundreds and hundredsof Australian water experts.
But what Source probably needsto do better in the future is to
communicate convincingly, witha line of sight, between the
modelling products that itproduces and the data that sits
(22:21):
behind it, and communicate moredirectly to less expert people,
and that goes to what thetechnology people will call the
user interface, but also tovisualisations of how different
scenarios will affect themanagement of river systems and
(22:42):
give you instant feedback at avisual level on a computer
screen based on differentpotential options and decisions
that might be taken.
And this is where software isgoing Anyone who owns and
develops software.
The days of only communicatingto specialists are over.
(23:04):
The number of hydrologistscoming out of Australian
universities at master's and PhDlevels, unfortunately, is
shrinking every year, so we'revery focused on making our tools
and services much moreaccessible and much more usable
and trusted by a largercommunity of those in the water
(23:27):
management and decision makingspace.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (23:29):
So we've talked about eWaterSource, which
is really so you're saying 35years it's built on.
That is so rare that weactually get continuity building
on our research, so that, forone thing, is a huge tick for me
.
How's it being used in some ofour basins, like the
Murray-Darling Basin, which somany of us hear about and
listeners?
I am aware there are many otherbasins in Australia as well,
(23:53):
but the Murray-Darling Basinwith its environmental flows and
it's a very contested waterspace.
How is a model like Sourceassisting the decision makers in
a contested area like theMurray-Darling Well?
Michael Wilson (24:04):
first of all, shuan, I'd say that eWater
Source being the nationalhydrological modelling assisting
the decision makers in acontested area like the
Murray-Darling Well, first ofall, shuan, I'd say that
eWaterSource, being the nationalhydrological modelling platform
, is used Australia-wide.
So it's used in river basinmanagement in Tasmania, in
Western Australia, in a coupleof cases in the Northern
Territory and, of course, rightdown the Murray-Darling system,
from Queensland at the top toSouth Australia at the bottom
(24:26):
and everything in between.
So just about every river basinand component of every river
basin, every catchment in thatsystem now has a source model
and each of those models andthose models connected to each
other, where there iscommunication between catchments
(24:46):
and the broader system, carriesits own set of data which
decision makers, you know, fromlocal government level to
national government level, tothe Murray-Darling Basin
Authority, have access to andwork with and base their
decision making on, and thenegotiations between both
(25:09):
different levels of governmentand between state governments
and between state governmentsand the federal government use
as the basis of thoseconversations.
So it doesn't mean controversydoesn't arise because, as I said
earlier, water management isinherently political.
(25:30):
So most water managementquandaries that you might face
in Australia or anywhere aroundthe globe aren't principally
technical or, if they are, thetechnical solutions or options
are reasonably straightforward.
You can bring those to thetable with the right expertise.
The quandaries arise along theMurray-Darling Basin system, as
(25:53):
along the Mekong system, becausethere is competition for the
resource and different usershave different needs and
different users have differentaccess to power.
And that's where theseconversations get really
interesting.
But one thing Australia, forinstance, has worked on for now
(26:15):
over 25 years in the MekongBasin in Southeast Asia, so
involving the southern provincesof China, laos, cambodia,
vietnam is around transparentdecision-making, decision
support systems, as I talkedabout before, and that has meant
that the conversation haschanged within the Mekong River
(26:38):
Commission, which is a regionalmultilateral body established by
a treaty involving thoseriparian states.
It establishes norms andprocesses for making decisions
about new developments or newmajor water allocations along
that system.
While the decisions made at theend of those processes may
(27:03):
ultimately be political, thereis now very little hiding from
the science about how thatsystem works, the volume of
water flowing through thatsystem at every point, the
impact of climate change, bothlooking backwards but also
looking forwards.
And that has meant evengovernments that may not be you
(27:26):
know, may not be democratic intheir base.
They have needed to explaintheir decision making to their
populations and to the regionalpopulation, particularly those
downstream of wherever thedecision affects.
They've had to be moretransparent about the basis on
(27:47):
which they're making thosedecisions, and that's just a
good thing.
And the same happens inAustralia.
There was, you'll recall, 30years ago a lot of prevarication
about scientific uncertaintyabout how some of these rivers
behaved.
As we gather more data, as westand up more hydrological
(28:12):
models for river systems andunderstand the connections
better, there's less opportunityto prevaricate.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (28:22):
That is quote-unquote music to my ears,
but mainly because for so longI've been advocating that our
role as knowledge brokers, ifyou like, knowledge generators
is to share that knowledgewidely, and I think it's so
important that it goes out intothe public domain.
You know we were talking aboutassumptions before we've been.
(28:43):
I think there's been thisassumption from some of our
scientific community ortechnical community to say, oh,
there's no way they'd understandthat we need to explain it for
them, whereas I think nowadays,with so much knowledge out there
, it is important to share theknowledge that we're generating,
say, this is what we think,this is what we interpret, but
you now have the agency to dothat as well, and it's behoven
(29:07):
on us then to provideopportunities for them to say I
would like to access andunderstand, can you help me?
So it's much more of a dialoguerather than just pushing that.
This is the way it goes.
One thing that does occur to me,though, when you were talking
about modelling has the rise offake news and artificial
intelligence presented any like?
(29:29):
Has it hindered efforts to growpeople's confidence?
Or, um, the partnerships thatyou're working in like that
mekong example was so good areable to distinguish and say,
well, actually, no, that's notright.
This is the, this is theknowledge that we're going to
use to make this decision.
How's that playing out?
Michael Wilson (29:45):
So I mean, they're two different sides of
the same coin.
I think there's nothing newabout fake news, particularly
when it comes to theintersection between the roles
of governments and how naturalresources are managed and how
the landscape and the climatebehaves in a country like
(30:08):
Australia.
There have been myths andlegends going back many, many
years, but they're also, I mean,turning to the great potential
of Indigenous knowledge aroundhow our river systems and our
watersheds work.
Back before European settlementis also something that we are
(30:29):
trying to draw upon morecentrally as we modernise source
.
The antidote, I think, to fakenews in many cases is the
ability to draw a line clearlyand transparently and in ways
that people can understand forthemselves rather than have
(30:51):
explained only by a group of PhDhydrologists.
You know about what's what's inthe system and what the choices
are.
Artificial intelligence addsanother layer to that, but uh,
we we actually like to see thatthe potential of artificial
intelligence to assist our workis actually greater than the
(31:14):
danger at this stage.
So, just to give you a bit ofan example, lots of hydrological
modelling platforms becauseSource isn't the only one there
is have suffered for some timefrom something called technical
debt, and technical debt ariseswhen there is not a reinvestment
(31:35):
in keeping the technology up todate.
A platform suffering technicaldebt might not be incorporating
the most recent information andresearch, or it might simply be
built upon or have components ofold platform technology which
just doesn't work particularlywell.
As time goes by, slows, slows,everything down, becomes less
(31:58):
reliable.
So any software that you mightuse, you know if you're using a
Microsoft suite, it's upgradedvery regularly to address that
common problem.
What's happened with a lot ofhydrological modelling platforms
across the world is that therehas been insufficient resources
to address technical debt, andSource has been in that
(32:20):
situation until recently.
So we have a plan to enhanceand upgrade source but also
address the technical debt buildup over the past 10 or 12 years
since it last got a big capitalinjection, but also make it
resilient to accrual oftechnical debt in the future.
(32:42):
And artificial intelligence canreally help with that.
So, for instance, we'd made somecalculations some years ago on
how many software developers itwould take to strip out
redundant code in the sourceplatform, and we'd assessed that
as being three developersfull-time over two years.
(33:03):
There's pretty good evidencenow that with the strategic use
of artificial intelligence wecan do that in a day.
Now that doesn't do the wholejob.
That doesn't in itself upgradesource, but the power of having
access to supercomputing heftand artificial intelligence
(33:25):
which can do some of the jobsthat we relied on humans to do
in the past, could be absolutelytransformative.
And it's likely to betransformative in the
international developmentbusiness as well, because if you
look at applying artificialintelligence capability to how
you manage healthcare deliveryto remote communities in a
(33:47):
country like Myanmar, havingjust been affected by a large
earthquake but you know subjectvery regularly to very serious
climatic events as well then youknow that could be an absolute
game changer in places wherethere's very little money per
head of population to spend onwhat we would regard in
(34:08):
Australia as essential services.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (34:11):
Yeah, I'm not scared of artificial
intelligence, I must say.
A couple of members of our teamgave a presentation at the
Stream Management Conferencelast year and were just
demonstrating how artificialintelligence has changed and how
we can actually use it to freeus up to be the creative humans
we are.
That a lot of that, becauseit's drawing on information and
(34:34):
knowledge we've alreadygenerated.
You know it is quality in, ofcourse, but a lot can be done by
AI that frees us to be morecreative.
Just thinking back to that, thebeginning of your talk, when
you said how many softwaredevelopers?
I was sure it was going to behow many software developers
does it take to change a lightbulb?
So I was just wondering what'syour thinking on that?
Michael Wilson (34:54):
Oh look, every one of our software developers
could change hundreds of lightbulbs in a day, they're
magnificent.
No, I don't have a gag, I'mafraid I'm afraid about.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (35:06):
I should have looked that up all right, that
seems to be a good segue for meto ask you about, like this role
that you're in now.
You're leading an organizationwhich has this very strong
technical grunt on one side andthen on the other side it's all
(35:28):
about partnerships.
So you must have found in yourtime here now bringing those two
together must be a really goodmatch because it keeps each side
aware of what else is going on,whether it be technical,
whether it be you know, quoteunquote human.
Michael Wilson (35:45):
Have you noticed that in the time that you've
been here, yeah, I certainlyhave, and I think we've, you
know, we've provided moreclarity and focus to how we talk
about and build and regardpartnerships in terms of
activating our mission in theAustralian water ecosystem or in
(36:09):
the international waterresource management story.
Part of that is that because weare owned by the Commonwealth
and all the state and territorygovernments, we have a moral
obligation, I think, to properlysteward the tools and the
services that we are entrustedto provide.
(36:29):
But that brings with itresponsibilities to not displace
others in the marketplace whoare part of that picture.
So we work very, very closelywith consulting companies who,
like us, provide services andand technical expertise to, to
(36:49):
government agencies, to waterutilities, to local government,
to the universities,universities and vice versa,
without being in competitionwith them.
The Australian WaterPartnership, in the way it
operates it, has 250 Australianpartners covering every
imaginable skill and need thatmight be required in
(37:09):
international water fordevelopment projects and
initiatives that we design andmanage overseas.
And those partners cometogether willingly, not just
working with awp but but workingin consortium with each other,
companies that are oftencommercial competitors in an
australian environment, workingum shoulder to shoulder with
(37:31):
each other to cover the spectrumof the skills that we will
typically need in aninternational development
initiative.
And we're not talking about hugeamounts of resources either.
You know, half a million dollarmulti-year program in a country
like Vietnam or India orThailand or Cambodia is a big
(37:54):
project for AWP.
Most of our initiatives don'texceed that sort of commitment.
Our partners, whether they beuniversities, whether they be
private companies, sometimesgovernment agencies themselves,
we involve in this work overseas.
We involve in this workoverseas.
They're more than willing tocontribute knowledge, expertise,
(38:15):
understanding, data andmaterials to these activities
because, you know, part of it is.
It's good for their own staffdevelopment.
For someone who might come outof Sydney Water or the
department in the WaterDepartment in Victoria to work
in an AWP project in a countrywhere resources are constrained
(38:36):
in a way that they haven'texperienced in Australia.
They bring back a really,really useful and valuable
understanding of how to beadaptable and how to be
innovative, even a bias towardsreaching for the lower cost
solution rather than the higher,higher cost solution.
So it's one of those thingswhere where the, where the
partnership model deliversbenefits for everyone, both the
(39:01):
the clients who you hope you'reassisting with their, with their
problems and challenges, butalso everybody involved takes
some tremendous amount away fromthat experience so, thinking
about partnerships, I wasthinking about the choir that we
sing in together.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (39:17):
Let's go right back to when we first met, when
you were also doing operasinging and training as an opera
singer and, by the way, has abeautiful voice.
What is it about music and songthat attracted you to looking
at opera as an option for you?
Michael Wilson (39:36):
Part of it was my upbringing.
I had a family background wheremy mother and father had very
few areas where they were reallycompatible.
Both had a strong interest inmusic, but my father's interest
was in jazz.
He was really an aficionado andan expert on pre-1929 jazz,
(39:59):
which he picked up when he wasstudying in the United States in
the 1950s.
And my mother had a classicalmusic background.
She'd learnt piano as a girlbut fallen in love with opera in
her young adulthood.
I was a girl, but fallen in lovewith opera in her young
adulthood.
She took me along to lots ofclassical music of all different
sorts.
So she had a very broad rangeof interests.
(40:26):
But she was conscious ofexposing me to as broad a range
as possible too and verystrongly encouraged, if not
insisted, that I learned amusical instrument.
So I started off playing theviolin.
I played cello for a while.
Then, to try and delight myfather, I moved on to clarinet
and tried some jazz work, butI'd sung from when I was a young
(40:50):
boy.
Sung from when I was a young boyand for any musician, singing
provides a level of oraltraining and comprehension of
how music works that I don'tthink anything else really does
hey presto.
Eventually I landed on voice asmy chief instrument, having sung
all the way through school fromwhen I was about five through
(41:12):
to my late teens.
So I was encouraged to startsinging lessons with Helen Swan,
who is still the director ofthe Resonance, and then went on
to study at the ANU School ofMusic.
But, as Helen actually tellsthe story, coming out of a
(41:47):
school environment where therewas a very, very strong choral
tradition and tradition ofchoral excellence where I went
to school I was musical trainingwho were interested in singing
at a high level and interestedin singing a broad but
(42:08):
challenging repertoire and doingthat well, and originally it
started out as a young adultchoir.
We we notionally put an agelimit of 25, I think, on um on
the choir at the beginning, butas we've continued to enjoy the
experience we've, we've pushedthe ceiling ever higher.
I like to think both in termsof of age and and actually and
(42:31):
actually musical ability andsophistication.
I think we are the best choirnow that we've ever been and we
do some seriously challengingstuff and we've commissioned
music from Australian composerswhich I'm particularly proud of.
I think we sing at a level nowthat exceeds whatever we've done
(42:52):
before.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (42:52):
And listeners.
Just to point out here that Iam a member of the Resonance
Choir and Helen was also mysinging teacher.
But I kind of feel like I gotin because my husband agreed to
come along as well and theyalways need basses.
Michael Wilson (43:05):
So I think it's okay, and I sit next to him at
rehearsal.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (43:10):
Yes, definitely not a young adult
choir anymore, although Helensays that we are still young
adults to her, and so you know,let's go with that.
I'm very happy with that.
Michael Wilson (43:18):
I'm very happy with that too.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (43:20):
Tell listeners what it's like to sing as part
of a choir.
Michael Wilson (43:23):
Singing as part of a choir, I think, is an
experience unlike any other.
There are some similarities toplaying an instrument in an
orchestra, but being amongst agroup of people and surrounded
by sound, and tuning in not onlyto your own musical line but
(43:45):
everything else that's going onin all of the other musical
lines around you, andunderstanding how what you're
doing fits into that and andcontributes and and adds to it
is is quite a quite a magicalexperience, and every day is
different and every place thatyou stand in relation to the
other choir members gives you adifferent experience and and
(44:09):
every piece of piece ofrepertoire and style of music is
different.
And it's also useful to beexposed to different styles of
musical direction, which we'vebeen able to do over the life.
Of the resonance too, it's verydifferent to being an audience
member for a choir, which is agreat pleasure in itself.
(44:31):
But standing in the center ofsound, particularly when
everything's working well, whenthe parts are all well balanced,
when the music's blending well,when everybody who's singing
really gets what the composer istrying to do and really gets
what the director is trying toachieve, that's, um, that's
pretty special it is reallyspecial and it kind of brings me
(44:54):
to an initiative that we'veundertaken, and Michael and I
will be singing together insomething called River Song,
which has brought together ourlove for rivers and also the
choir and our singing.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (45:05):
Can you tell listeners a bit about River Song
?
Michael Wilson (45:08):
well, I probably can't tell listeners as much
about River Song as as you, sh,as you, because it's your
brainchild.
But the idea of Riversong wasboth to lift the profile of the
Australian River RestorationCentre, which Shu-An is CEO of
and is, incidentally, a givingback partner for the E-Water
(45:31):
Group group, where we take ourstaff out, supervised by Shuan's
staff, to do tree planting, torestore the banks of degraded
rivers as often as we can manage, but to lift the profile of the
centre, to give it a neededinjection of resources, which
(45:52):
hopefully, if this works well,will mean it's got access to
flexible funding.
It can do some things that itsnormal sources of resourcing
might not enable it to do,particularly around ignored
parts of our river systems, andbring, I guess, the water
(46:15):
management community, those whoin different ways care about our
rivers, together in a morespiritual conversation about
what rivers mean to us, not justeconomically and
environmentally, but spirituallyand culturally as well.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (46:33):
Oh, that's a lovely, lovely way of phrasing
it, because you're right.
You know, a lot of the idea forme behind this was to share my
love of singing and being up onstage with my friends singing
about rivers.
And you know, in the rehearsalsI often feel close to tears
because I think these people alltrust and believe in the work
(46:54):
that we do on rivers.
And that's been really specialbecause we generally actually
don't talk about work at choir,which is also really nice, like
we just we're just there becausewe enjoy singing.
But in this case, every song isabout a river in some way.
A lot of them are love songs.
The indigenous songs are really, really hard.
We still need to do some morepractising on some of that
(47:14):
language.
But yeah, it is that bringingtogether of song and love and
also rivers themselves.
Michael Wilson (47:22):
And I think, shu-anne, you might have been a
little bit reticent to suggestthe idea to the choir, but
immediately, I think, everyonesort of fell in love with the
concept.
And then we worried about beingable to come up with a full
concert repertoire, butimmediately, I think, everyone
sort of fell in love with theconcept, and then we worried
about being able to come up witha full concert repertoire along
a river theme and actually thatwasn't difficult at all.
(47:44):
There is so much music that isdirectly applicable to what
we're trying to evoke beforethis audience on the 17th of May
.
That's right, there is indeed,and it's a bit like that whole
thing of you know the name ofthis podcast on the 17th of May.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (47:52):
That's right, there is indeed, and it's a bit
like that whole thing of youknow, the name of this podcast
is Take Me to the River, becausewe know that being near a river
, being near water, just doessomething for you.
So yeah, for anyone in theCanberra area, you'd be very
welcome to come along, we'd loveto see you there.
For those that aren't inCanberra, we will record bits of
(48:14):
it for you and look, who knows,if this goes as well.
You know we might be the nextHamilton.
Let's see how we go.
One can only hope one can onlyhope so.
Look, as we come to the end ofwhat's been a really fascinating
conversation, we have threequestions that we ask every
guest, so the first one isaround, do you have a favourite
river or waterway or body ofwater?
Michael Wilson (48:33):
I probably have a few, but I spent much of my
childhood growing up on aproperty south of Captain's Flat
and we had the luck of havingtwo permanent rivers running
through our property and one wascalled the Sherlock Creek and I
(48:57):
spent many happy hours playingaround, fishing in, spotting
platypus in the Sherlock andeven though my family left that
land when I was 13, I think Icould still recognise every foot
of that riverbank, so that's animportant one to me.
(49:19):
The Thredbo River is another one.
My family and I have spent many, mostly summer, holidays in and
around Thredbo and walking upand down that watercourse, and
I'm going to pick the Tilba Lakeas a body of water which again
has a family connection a lakebetween the village of central
(49:41):
Tilba and the beach, sometimesopen to the ocean and sometimes
closed, so it behaves verydifferently depending on the
season and depending on whetherthere's a flow through of water
to the sea, but spent many, manyhours boating and wading and
(50:01):
looking at the wildlife in thatbody of water under the shadow
of Gooligga Mountain, which is,you know, magical and very
important to the local FirstNations people of that part of
New South Wales.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (50:16):
I know that part well and I think for anyone
who's ever been on the show andI've asked that question
there's always been a connectionfor them to a memory or a
family story.
And I think that's why I knowyou were saying earlier oh gosh,
are we going to have enoughrepertoire?
Oh, my goodness.
You know, rivers becomemetaphors for life, for love,
for so many things, as thisconnecting piece.
(50:38):
So it's not surprising, butit's always lovely to hear the
stories that go along with that.
So where do you feel mostconnected to country and to
nature?
Michael Wilson (50:48):
probably out in the bush, where you know I can't
see or hear or feel any sign ofcivilization or human presence.
Thinking of the landscape,particularly this Australian
landscape which for any of uswho've grown up in and around it
has that special affinity, justthe way the bush speaks to you,
(51:12):
the way the trees sound in thewind, the way the wind sounds
blowing through valleys, the waydifferent light plays upon
rocks and trees, that's where Ifeel most connected.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (51:25):
Yeah, I really do.
Yeah, I relate very much tothat.
It's also about all your sensesbeing able to be engaged,
because so much of modern life.
You know, as you were talkingthat, I was thinking, yeah, no
phone that's buzzing in yourpocket, no someone telling you
you have to do this or you haveto do that.
You just stand and yeah, Itotally relate to that.
(51:46):
It's just a sensory experience.
So our final question and I'msure people have already got a
bit of a sense of what motivatesyou to do what you do but at
this point in your career, whichhas been many and varied and
you've still got so much more togive, including your beautiful
voice what drives you to do whatyou do?
Michael Wilson (52:05):
I think, need and the ability to give
something back.
I mean, mean it sounds a bithokey, but the ambition that,
whatever one does you leave theworld a slightly better place.
That's really principally whatdrives me, and it's driven me in
all sorts of areas of endeavourtoo.
(52:27):
So it's possible to find thatmeaning, I think, almost
everywhere you look.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (52:57):
But I have a good deal of pride about most of
the choices I've made throughmy skill set or my level of
passion has a good chance ofhitting home and creating impact
.
Thank you so much, Michael.
It's been a really wonderfulconversation and listeners.
If you're interested in findingout more, we'll have some show
notes along with this episode soyou can look up the
organisations that Michael hastalked about and some of the
projects, and I look forward tobeing with you again at our next
podcast and if you are aroundCanberra on the 17th of May,
(53:18):
please come and join us.
There will be an opportunityfor you to also raise your voice
at Riverside.
Hey, Well done, Michael, Welldone.
Michael Wilson (53:30):
Shalane.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (53:33):
So good.
Thanks so much, michael, forbeing with us today.
It's been a really fascinatingconversation.
For any listeners wanting toknow more, we'll have some show
notes linking to theorganisations Michael's talked
about, as well as, of course, toour upcoming Rivers Song
(53:54):
concert.
We'd love to have you join us.
Bye for now.
You can subscribe to Take Me tothe River.
Wherever you get your podcasts,visit arrcau forward slash
podcast to learn more.
That's ARRCau forward slashpodcast.
(54:15):
We acknowledge and respectAboriginal and Torres Strait
Islander peoples as thetraditional and continuing
custodians of the country andthe rivers on which we live,
learn, love and play.
We respect and learn fromelders past, present and
emerging, valuing theirknowledge, insights, cultures
and connections to the waterwayswe all love and care for and
learn from elders past, presentand emerging, valuing their
knowledge, insights, culturesand connections to the waterways
we all love and care for.
Singing as part of a choir, I think, is an
experience unlike any other.
Being amongst a group of peopleand surrounded by sound and
tuning in not only to your ownmusical line but everything else
that's going on in all of theother musical lines around you
(00:20):
and understanding how whatyou're doing fits into that and
contributes and adds to it, isquite a magical experience.
Standing in the centre of sound, particularly when everything's
working well, when the partsare all well balanced, when the
music's blending well, wheneverybody who's singing really
(00:41):
gets what the composer is tryingto do and really gets what the
director is trying to achievethat's pretty special.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (01:00):
Hello and welcome to Take Me to the River,
sharing stories and inspiringhope with extraordinary people
who care for our rivers.
I' m your host, Dr.
Siwan Lovett.
Today I'm speaking with myfriend, michael Wilson, group
CEO of the eWater Group.
Ewater Group is an organisationdedicated to improving water
management across Australia andinternationally and is jointly
(01:23):
owned by all Australiangovernments.
It's comprised of two divisionseWater Solutions, who provide
science-based water managementexpertise and tools, and the
Australian Water Partnership,working closely with the
Department of Foreign Affairsand Trade to support a range of
water management and governanceinitiatives in collaboration
with developing countries inSouth Asia, southeast Asia and
(01:46):
the Pacific.
Michael has an extraordinaryrange of backgrounds he's a
political scientist, classicalmusician, public servant,
national security specialist,Australian diplomat and
humanitarian and internationaldevelopment advisor all rolled
into one, with over 35 yearsexperience across all these
fields.
He's run for Parliament,negotiated international
(02:10):
environmental treaties andtrained as a classical baritone
opera singer.
The thing I love most aboutMichael is that he and I sing
together in a choir called theResonance.
This is one of Canberra'sforemost adult choirs and we've
been singing for over 25 years.
Our upcoming performance, riverSong, is a unique fundraising
concert for the long-term futureof our rivers, celebrating what
(02:30):
waterways mean to us inAustralia and across the globe.
We're going to talk to Michaelnow about his amazing background
as well as his love for singingas we explore his world at the
eWater Group.
It's a real pleasure to be herewith you, Michael.
Thanks so much for coming onthe program.
Michael Wilson (02:46):
Thanks, Siwan, for the opportunity.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (02:48):
Always a pleasure to talk to someone who
loves water and who lovessinging, but we'll come to that
a little bit later on.
You've had a really long careerin policy, international aid
and development.
I want to start by asking youwhat are some of the lessons
you've learnt in that reallyinteresting background work that
you've done for so long?
Michael Wilson (03:05):
Well, I suppose I've learnt that I'm principally
driven by values.
So working on environment,working in international
development and povertyreduction, working on
sustainable water resourcemanagement All of these things
are things that I thinkcontribute to making the world a
(03:26):
better place.
I hope, and I also takepleasure in bringing the next
generation along, so I've alwayspaid attention to bringing on
and mentoring, I hope, andcoaching the next generation of
leaders and managers and peoplewho can do innovative thinking
(03:47):
around all of these endeavours.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (03:49):
So can you tell us a bit about some of the
work that you've done inSoutheast Asia, which many
people may have just been to asa place on holiday, but you've
actually lived and worked there.
Michael Wilson (03:58):
Yeah, so I've worked on Southeast Asia really
since about the year 2000.
And, of course, over that timethere's been a tremendous amount
of change and a tremendousamount of economic growth in
that region, and prettyspectacular poverty reduction
has been achieved as well.
One thing that's interestingabout mainland Southeast Asia,
(04:22):
where I've spent most of myworking life and I lived and
worked in Vietnam and covered arange of other countries from
Hanoi, including Cambodia, Laos,Myanmar and Thailand for a
number of years is that theinterconnections between these
countries are really importantto understand.
(04:45):
They're important to thesecountries' development and
future, but they also, theseinterconnections, go back
thousands and thousands of years.
And one area of interconnectionis around water, key river
systems that really keep theeconomies and the peoples of
these countries alive andfunctioning and give them their
(05:09):
economic heft production of lotsof materials and goods that are
traded internationally.
But also for the many people inand along these river systems
who still live fairlysubsistence lifestyles, it's a
matter of survival in terms ofhow healthy these rivers are and
(05:30):
how sensibly the sharedresource is managed.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (05:33):
Yeah, I think that's a really good point
because you know, as you say,those countries are linked, just
like our Murray-Darling Basinis or the Great Barrier Reef is,
but you've got that hugely longcultural history and divide to
negotiate.
The other thing I'm interestedin hearing from you about is
that when I've been asked toprovide advice to developing
countries or to areas where ariver's in dire straits, it's
(05:56):
very hard for us to do so whenyou're dealing with so much
poverty.
People just want to be able todrink water.
They don't necessarily careabout a new species of bird
being supported or reeds.
How do you actually walk thatsort of road of being empathic
and understanding about povertybut also try to get wins for the
environment?
Michael Wilson (06:25):
and this is as much the case in Australia as it
is in the Mekong or the Arawatisystems in mainland Southeast
Asia.
They actually want a healthyenvironment as well.
They understand that if youchop down the last tree for
firewood, that's kind of anend-of-day story.
So local people along thesesystems are the most aware of
(06:47):
the changes in their environment, based on what developments
have happened along the system,what changes have happened in
the prevailing climate, and sothey're a very, very important
source of information, as wellas being the key stakeholder
group around decision making.
So sometimes we assume thatpeople who are living right on
(07:11):
the edge of extreme povertymight not be worried about
long-term futures.
They're worried about where thenext meal is coming from.
Now.
That's actually a falseassumption.
Now, that's actually a falseassumption.
People in their communities arereally concerned about what is
necessary for them to surviveand their descendants to survive
(07:33):
long term, so they're oftenvery conscious of the slow
changes that happen in terms ofincremental impacts of
development and of things likeclimate change.
So you know.
It's important to involve themvery closely in decision making
(07:54):
and to engage them in discussionabout what options there might
be for them to take more controlover management issues.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (08:03):
I think that's really important.
It's not something I've oftenheard either.
Maybe we use it as a bit of acop-out sometimes, but to
daylight, the fact that we'remaking assumptions, I think is
actually really powerful andsomething I'll certainly think
more about.
What are some of the examplesthat you have of work undertaken
in Southeast Asia where you'veactually seen really good
(08:23):
engagement quote unquote goodengagement of local community in
their waterways.
Michael Wilson (08:28):
So one of the things that's happening in the
international developmentbusiness right at the moment is
a much stronger focus on locallyled development, on not only
engaging those for whom you aretargeting your development
programming, but learning fromthem and gathering their
(08:52):
experience and lessons and, inmany cases, bringing those back
home to the Australian contextas well.
So, through the Australian WaterPartnership, which is supported
by the Australian Aid Program,through the Department of
Foreign Affairs and Trade, asyou said, we've done quite a few
projects where really startingat the grassroots has been
(09:14):
fundamental to these programsdesign and success.
So, for instance, in Vietnam, weworked on a program which was
engaging people at village levelto both learn and exercise
their knowledge aroundgroundwater use and how
(09:35):
groundwater aquifers recharge.
We've worked with localcommunities in places like
Vietnam, Cambodia and Thailandon what's called nature-based
solutions to water management,and they're very useful in terms
of flood control in highrainfall instances and that's
(09:56):
happening more often as climatechange advances but also have
the opportunity to reinvigorateecosystems and biodiversity and
can be very, very cost effective, particularly when you compare
these nature-based solutions tothe old ways of doing things,
engineering solutions, whichinvolved a lot of sort of
(10:18):
concrete and changes of waterlevel.
But if you don't do that withthe engagement of local
communities, you both fail togather their knowledge of how
these water systems have workedover hundreds of years.
Often, but you also riskdisrupting their lives and
(10:38):
livelihoods.
So when you engage localcommunities in a meaningful way,
in the spirit of partnership,where everybody is communicating
and operating in a co-designrelationship, everybody should
win.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (10:56):
Yeah, I mean it sounds a wonderful approach.
How much do these projectsactually cost to resource?
Because I know it's one of thebig things that we like to do in
our work at the AustralianRiver Restoration Centre.
But there is very rarely a boxon a grant form that says form
relationships, build trust.
How about your area?
(11:16):
Is that more widely acceptedthat?
That has to be a part of it ifwe're going to get success.
Michael Wilson (11:21):
Yeah, I really think it is, and I think it's an
area where lots of othersectors can learn.
So with our flagshipinternational development
program, the Australian WaterPartnership the P stands for
partnership and that's actuallywhat matters the most we're
bringing Australian skills andexpertise where that's needed to
the table.
(11:42):
But the partnership part of AWPis crucial and that's both
working with Australian partnersabout how to apply their
expertise and experience towater management and governance
challenges in developingcountries and in the particular
(12:02):
context of developing countrieswhere resources are usually by
definition fairly scarce butthen working with local
communities in that partnershipas well to develop responses to
these challenges which arelocally appropriate, which are
affordable and which aresustainable over time.
(12:22):
And if you don't successfullydo that, I mean I'd have to say
in the 50 years or 70 years ofinternational development
experience, lots of money hasbeen probably wasted because
local communities haven't reallyhad any say.
The sorts of solutions that wemight think are appropriate in
(12:43):
an Australian context just don'twork in those contexts.
It's about cost-effectivenessand value for money as much as
it is about the right solutionsin the right context which
really address the need of localcommunities and the environment
that they depend on.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (13:01):
So we're hearing a lot about nature-based
solutions and some of ourlisteners might be going oh,
it's just the latest buzzword.
What is a nature-based solution?
Or an example Sure.
Michael Wilson (13:11):
So we do a lot of work in and around
nature-based solutions, bothinternationally, through our
work with the Australian WaterPartnership, but also
domestically and even locally inCanberra.
So, aside from eWater Source,which is the National
Hydrological Modelling Platformthat eWater is the custodian and
(13:33):
manager of, we are designersand custodians of a range of
other tools, and one of those isa tool called MUSIC, which is a
tool to assist water-sensitiveurban design, particularly
around the management ofstormwater in urban environments
and putting that at the centreof planning for new urban
(13:58):
development and green spaces inand around new urban development
.
And that involves things, likeyou know you may have, in an
Australian city grown up arounda big concrete lined stormwater
drain where, every time itfloods, water flows down at 30
kilometres an hour, disappearsunderground somewhere and goes
(14:22):
out to sea and takes lots of thetopsoil with it.
Now, if you look at nature-basedsolutions, you can do things
like install and design systemsfor debris traps to slow down
water in retention ponds andestablish new wetlands, which
are, of course, platforms forbiodiversity and platforms for
(14:47):
urban recreation opportunities.
So that's one of the areas andin a developing country context,
in a city megacity, forinstance, like Bangkok, where
we've done quite a lot of workon nature-based solutions with
Water Sensitive Cities,australia and the Australian
Water Partnership, you've gotthese new urban parks springing
(15:08):
up in a city that is surrounded,in fact built upon water.
You've got traffic calmingopportunities in installing
strips of parkland where therewere previously bits of concrete
jungle.
So it can be quite exciting andcreative.
But again, compared to oldengineering solutions, the old
(15:34):
technocratic solutions of damsand dikes and those sorts of
large-scale constructions can bea lot cheaper and provide many,
many more benefits.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (15:46):
So looking at music then, which I love, given
our connection later on to ourchoir.
Michael Wilson (15:51):
Total coincidence.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (15:53):
How beautiful is that?
Is a model like that able to go?
So, if we use this engineeringdesign, this is the likely
outcome.
If we use, say this,nature-based approach, this is
the likely outcome.
If we use, say, this,nature-based approach, this is
the likely outcome, so thatpeople can choose between
different scenarios.
Is that the power of modelling?
As you see it?
Michael Wilson (16:13):
Yeah, that is basically the power of modelling
.
So the first thing to get rightwith modelling as far as you
can get everything completelycorrect and accurate is to
predict the behavior of theenvironment within which any
water system works.
So, whether that's in an urbanstormwater environment or
whether it's in a river basinenvironment, once you've been
(16:35):
able to establish that, based onthe best data and science
that's possible, then then thethen the designers can come to
the table and you can runscenarios through those software
tools to see the likelybehaviour of these water
(16:56):
management systems based ondifferent approaches and
different designs for floodmanagement, for slowing water
flow, for river systems thatvarious operators and industries
and users need to draw on.
That's the whole point.
But it's important also forthose tools and systems and the
(17:21):
data upon which they're based tobe entirely objective,
fact-based, data-based, becausethat's the way that you're going
to build community trust in thereliability of that data and
therefore the reliability of theresponses that are then based
upon that data.
(17:42):
It's all about decision-makingupon that data.
It's all about decision making.
So as a political scientisttalking to non-water experts and
I'm no water expert I put thisin the language of these are
decision support systems, in thesame way as you would establish
a decision support system inputting a curriculum together
(18:04):
for high schools, or a decisionsupport system in setting up a
community health service in aregional area.
It's just the same.
You need data and you needscience and you need people with
the relevant expertise, andthen you bring the designers and
the people with options to thetable.
(18:25):
So that's another aspect ofworking in partnership in water
resource management.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (18:33):
That's a great overview.
Last year I collaborated on apaper.
I went to an AustralianFreshwater Science Society
conference and as a socialscientist, you know some
sessions are more interestingthan others.
I don't necessarily want tolook at a microscopic larvae and
get excited, but hey, otherpeople do and that's fine.
I decided that I would go tothe modelling session because
(18:54):
that is one that I would nevernormally go to.
It's always been something thatI've had community say to me I
just don't trust it.
It's a black box.
You're just putting stuff inand it spits out the other end.
I learned so much in thatsession and we had a really
great conversation and I wasthen invited to work with them
on a paper, collaborative paper.
The premise was I had modelingpeople saying I need to be a
(19:17):
better communicator and Iactually said, no, you don't,
you are a modeler, you just haveto be open to working with
people who can interpret whatyou're doing.
I think we often expect peopleto be everything.
It's like saying, shu-an, youknow all about water.
You go and run Michael's musicmodel.
I don't think so, so we'replacing a lot of expectations on
(19:38):
people to do that.
Have you got some examples inyour work, where you have people
who do that synthesis, who whodo that interpretation, or does
that come through?
Is that the nature of thepartnerships that you've been
talking about?
Michael Wilson (19:51):
So we do.
On staff, we have a range ofpractitioners with different
skill sets.
So our software developers andarchitects are very, very clever
people with a level ofknowledge and, frankly, a
vocabulary that I don't thinkI'll ever be able to match.
But because they've worked inthis organisation, most of them
(20:16):
for quite a while and we are asmall outfit they, in their
(20:38):
direct communications with ourclients and customers, know that
they need to be using languagethat resonates and is
comprehended by not only theusers in our customer
organisations but those who thenreceive the information and are
invested with thedecision-making responsibilities
information and are investedwith the decision making
responsibilities and they arenot necessarily experts,
particularly when you get toministers.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (20:51):
What you mean.
They're not experts, michael,on everything.
Michael Wilson (20:54):
Some of them aren't experts on absolutely
everything Good to know.
And it's really one of thethings that drives the way we
engage with our client andcustomer base and our owners,
who are all Australiangovernments.
So our products and servicesare used across the country by
water management agencies, sothe policy departments, but also
(21:17):
the utilities and theregulators, and both our
software developers and ourhydrologists.
Our water scientists are prettyskilled at speaking to
different audiences.
Obviously, they can speak welland convincingly to their fellow
(21:37):
PhD hydrologists, but they'renow pretty good at talking to
broader audiences.
But it's one of the importantthings that is at the centre of
a very exciting project thatwe're embarking on for the
modernisation of the NationalHydrological Modelling Platform,
which is, as I said before,ewater Source, developed over 35
(22:00):
years by hundreds and hundredsof Australian water experts.
But what Source probably needsto do better in the future is to
communicate convincingly, witha line of sight, between the
modelling products that itproduces and the data that sits
(22:21):
behind it, and communicate moredirectly to less expert people,
and that goes to what thetechnology people will call the
user interface, but also tovisualisations of how different
scenarios will affect themanagement of river systems and
(22:42):
give you instant feedback at avisual level on a computer
screen based on differentpotential options and decisions
that might be taken.
And this is where software isgoing Anyone who owns and
develops software.
The days of only communicatingto specialists are over.
(23:04):
The number of hydrologistscoming out of Australian
universities at master's and PhDlevels, unfortunately, is
shrinking every year, so we'revery focused on making our tools
and services much moreaccessible and much more usable
and trusted by a largercommunity of those in the water
(23:27):
management and decision makingspace.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (23:29):
So we've talked about eWaterSource, which
is really so you're saying 35years it's built on.
That is so rare that weactually get continuity building
on our research, so that, forone thing, is a huge tick for me
.
How's it being used in some ofour basins, like the
Murray-Darling Basin, which somany of us hear about and
listeners?
I am aware there are many otherbasins in Australia as well,
(23:53):
but the Murray-Darling Basinwith its environmental flows and
it's a very contested waterspace.
How is a model like Sourceassisting the decision makers in
a contested area like theMurray-Darling Well?
Michael Wilson (24:04):
first of all, shuan, I'd say that eWater
Source being the nationalhydrological modelling assisting
the decision makers in acontested area like the
Murray-Darling Well, first ofall, shuan, I'd say that
eWaterSource, being the nationalhydrological modelling platform
, is used Australia-wide.
So it's used in river basinmanagement in Tasmania, in
Western Australia, in a coupleof cases in the Northern
Territory and, of course, rightdown the Murray-Darling system,
from Queensland at the top toSouth Australia at the bottom
(24:26):
and everything in between.
So just about every river basinand component of every river
basin, every catchment in thatsystem now has a source model
and each of those models andthose models connected to each
other, where there iscommunication between catchments
(24:46):
and the broader system, carriesits own set of data which
decision makers, you know, fromlocal government level to
national government level, tothe Murray-Darling Basin
Authority, have access to andwork with and base their
decision making on, and thenegotiations between both
(25:09):
different levels of governmentand between state governments
and between state governmentsand the federal government use
as the basis of thoseconversations.
So it doesn't mean controversydoesn't arise because, as I said
earlier, water management isinherently political.
(25:30):
So most water managementquandaries that you might face
in Australia or anywhere aroundthe globe aren't principally
technical or, if they are, thetechnical solutions or options
are reasonably straightforward.
You can bring those to thetable with the right expertise.
The quandaries arise along theMurray-Darling Basin system, as
(25:53):
along the Mekong system, becausethere is competition for the
resource and different usershave different needs and
different users have differentaccess to power.
And that's where theseconversations get really
interesting.
But one thing Australia, forinstance, has worked on for now
(26:15):
over 25 years in the MekongBasin in Southeast Asia, so
involving the southern provincesof China, laos, cambodia,
vietnam is around transparentdecision-making, decision
support systems, as I talkedabout before, and that has meant
that the conversation haschanged within the Mekong River
(26:38):
Commission, which is a regionalmultilateral body established by
a treaty involving thoseriparian states.
It establishes norms andprocesses for making decisions
about new developments or newmajor water allocations along
that system.
While the decisions made at theend of those processes may
(27:03):
ultimately be political, thereis now very little hiding from
the science about how thatsystem works, the volume of
water flowing through thatsystem at every point, the
impact of climate change, bothlooking backwards but also
looking forwards.
And that has meant evengovernments that may not be you
(27:26):
know, may not be democratic intheir base.
They have needed to explaintheir decision making to their
populations and to the regionalpopulation, particularly those
downstream of wherever thedecision affects.
They've had to be moretransparent about the basis on
(27:47):
which they're making thosedecisions, and that's just a
good thing.
And the same happens inAustralia.
There was, you'll recall, 30years ago a lot of prevarication
about scientific uncertaintyabout how some of these rivers
behaved.
As we gather more data, as westand up more hydrological
(28:12):
models for river systems andunderstand the connections
better, there's less opportunityto prevaricate.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (28:22):
That is quote-unquote music to my ears,
but mainly because for so longI've been advocating that our
role as knowledge brokers, ifyou like, knowledge generators
is to share that knowledgewidely, and I think it's so
important that it goes out intothe public domain.
You know we were talking aboutassumptions before we've been.
(28:43):
I think there's been thisassumption from some of our
scientific community ortechnical community to say, oh,
there's no way they'd understandthat we need to explain it for
them, whereas I think nowadays,with so much knowledge out there
, it is important to share theknowledge that we're generating,
say, this is what we think,this is what we interpret, but
you now have the agency to dothat as well, and it's behoven
(29:07):
on us then to provideopportunities for them to say I
would like to access andunderstand, can you help me?
So it's much more of a dialoguerather than just pushing that.
This is the way it goes.
One thing that does occur to me,though, when you were talking
about modelling has the rise offake news and artificial
intelligence presented any like?
(29:29):
Has it hindered efforts to growpeople's confidence?
Or, um, the partnerships thatyou're working in like that
mekong example was so good areable to distinguish and say,
well, actually, no, that's notright.
This is the, this is theknowledge that we're going to
use to make this decision.
How's that playing out?
Michael Wilson (29:45):
So I mean, they're two different sides of
the same coin.
I think there's nothing newabout fake news, particularly
when it comes to theintersection between the roles
of governments and how naturalresources are managed and how
the landscape and the climatebehaves in a country like
(30:08):
Australia.
There have been myths andlegends going back many, many
years, but they're also, I mean,turning to the great potential
of Indigenous knowledge aroundhow our river systems and our
watersheds work.
Back before European settlementis also something that we are
(30:29):
trying to draw upon morecentrally as we modernise source
.
The antidote, I think, to fakenews in many cases is the
ability to draw a line clearlyand transparently and in ways
that people can understand forthemselves rather than have
(30:51):
explained only by a group of PhDhydrologists.
You know about what's what's inthe system and what the choices
are.
Artificial intelligence addsanother layer to that, but uh,
we we actually like to see thatthe potential of artificial
intelligence to assist our workis actually greater than the
(31:14):
danger at this stage.
So, just to give you a bit ofan example, lots of hydrological
modelling platforms becauseSource isn't the only one there
is have suffered for some timefrom something called technical
debt, and technical debt ariseswhen there is not a reinvestment
(31:35):
in keeping the technology up todate.
A platform suffering technicaldebt might not be incorporating
the most recent information andresearch, or it might simply be
built upon or have components ofold platform technology which
just doesn't work particularlywell.
As time goes by, slows, slows,everything down, becomes less
(31:58):
reliable.
So any software that you mightuse, you know if you're using a
Microsoft suite, it's upgradedvery regularly to address that
common problem.
What's happened with a lot ofhydrological modelling platforms
across the world is that therehas been insufficient resources
to address technical debt, andSource has been in that
(32:20):
situation until recently.
So we have a plan to enhanceand upgrade source but also
address the technical debt buildup over the past 10 or 12 years
since it last got a big capitalinjection, but also make it
resilient to accrual oftechnical debt in the future.
(32:42):
And artificial intelligence canreally help with that.
So, for instance, we'd made somecalculations some years ago on
how many software developers itwould take to strip out
redundant code in the sourceplatform, and we'd assessed that
as being three developersfull-time over two years.
(33:03):
There's pretty good evidencenow that with the strategic use
of artificial intelligence wecan do that in a day.
Now that doesn't do the wholejob.
That doesn't in itself upgradesource, but the power of having
access to supercomputing heftand artificial intelligence
(33:25):
which can do some of the jobsthat we relied on humans to do
in the past, could be absolutelytransformative.
And it's likely to betransformative in the
international developmentbusiness as well, because if you
look at applying artificialintelligence capability to how
you manage healthcare deliveryto remote communities in a
(33:47):
country like Myanmar, havingjust been affected by a large
earthquake but you know subjectvery regularly to very serious
climatic events as well then youknow that could be an absolute
game changer in places wherethere's very little money per
head of population to spend onwhat we would regard in
(34:08):
Australia as essential services.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (34:11):
Yeah, I'm not scared of artificial
intelligence, I must say.
A couple of members of our teamgave a presentation at the
Stream Management Conferencelast year and were just
demonstrating how artificialintelligence has changed and how
we can actually use it to freeus up to be the creative humans
we are.
That a lot of that, becauseit's drawing on information and
(34:34):
knowledge we've alreadygenerated.
You know it is quality in, ofcourse, but a lot can be done by
AI that frees us to be morecreative.
Just thinking back to that, thebeginning of your talk, when
you said how many softwaredevelopers?
I was sure it was going to behow many software developers
does it take to change a lightbulb?
So I was just wondering what'syour thinking on that?
Michael Wilson (34:54):
Oh look, every one of our software developers
could change hundreds of lightbulbs in a day, they're
magnificent.
No, I don't have a gag, I'mafraid I'm afraid about.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (35:06):
I should have looked that up all right, that
seems to be a good segue for meto ask you about, like this role
that you're in now.
You're leading an organizationwhich has this very strong
technical grunt on one side andthen on the other side it's all
(35:28):
about partnerships.
So you must have found in yourtime here now bringing those two
together must be a really goodmatch because it keeps each side
aware of what else is going on,whether it be technical,
whether it be you know, quoteunquote human.
Michael Wilson (35:45):
Have you noticed that in the time that you've
been here, yeah, I certainlyhave, and I think we've, you
know, we've provided moreclarity and focus to how we talk
about and build and regardpartnerships in terms of
activating our mission in theAustralian water ecosystem or in
(36:09):
the international waterresource management story.
Part of that is that because weare owned by the Commonwealth
and all the state and territorygovernments, we have a moral
obligation, I think, to properlysteward the tools and the
services that we are entrustedto provide.
(36:29):
But that brings with itresponsibilities to not displace
others in the marketplace whoare part of that picture.
So we work very, very closelywith consulting companies who,
like us, provide services andand technical expertise to, to
(36:49):
government agencies, to waterutilities, to local government,
to the universities,universities and vice versa,
without being in competitionwith them.
The Australian WaterPartnership, in the way it
operates it, has 250 Australianpartners covering every
imaginable skill and need thatmight be required in
(37:09):
international water fordevelopment projects and
initiatives that we design andmanage overseas.
And those partners cometogether willingly, not just
working with awp but but workingin consortium with each other,
companies that are oftencommercial competitors in an
australian environment, workingum shoulder to shoulder with
(37:31):
each other to cover the spectrumof the skills that we will
typically need in aninternational development
initiative.
And we're not talking about hugeamounts of resources either.
You know, half a million dollarmulti-year program in a country
like Vietnam or India orThailand or Cambodia is a big
(37:54):
project for AWP.
Most of our initiatives don'texceed that sort of commitment.
Our partners, whether they beuniversities, whether they be
private companies, sometimesgovernment agencies themselves,
we involve in this work overseas.
We involve in this workoverseas.
They're more than willing tocontribute knowledge, expertise,
(38:15):
understanding, data andmaterials to these activities
because, you know, part of it is.
It's good for their own staffdevelopment.
For someone who might come outof Sydney Water or the
department in the WaterDepartment in Victoria to work
in an AWP project in a countrywhere resources are constrained
(38:36):
in a way that they haven'texperienced in Australia.
They bring back a really,really useful and valuable
understanding of how to beadaptable and how to be
innovative, even a bias towardsreaching for the lower cost
solution rather than the higher,higher cost solution.
So it's one of those thingswhere where the, where the
partnership model deliversbenefits for everyone, both the
(39:01):
the clients who you hope you'reassisting with their, with their
problems and challenges, butalso everybody involved takes
some tremendous amount away fromthat experience so, thinking
about partnerships, I wasthinking about the choir that we
sing in together.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (39:17):
Let's go right back to when we first met, when
you were also doing operasinging and training as an opera
singer and, by the way, has abeautiful voice.
What is it about music and songthat attracted you to looking
at opera as an option for you?
Michael Wilson (39:36):
Part of it was my upbringing.
I had a family background wheremy mother and father had very
few areas where they were reallycompatible.
Both had a strong interest inmusic, but my father's interest
was in jazz.
He was really an aficionado andan expert on pre-1929 jazz,
(39:59):
which he picked up when he wasstudying in the United States in
the 1950s.
And my mother had a classicalmusic background.
She'd learnt piano as a girlbut fallen in love with opera in
her young adulthood.
I was a girl, but fallen in lovewith opera in her young
adulthood.
She took me along to lots ofclassical music of all different
sorts.
So she had a very broad rangeof interests.
(40:26):
But she was conscious ofexposing me to as broad a range
as possible too and verystrongly encouraged, if not
insisted, that I learned amusical instrument.
So I started off playing theviolin.
I played cello for a while.
Then, to try and delight myfather, I moved on to clarinet
and tried some jazz work, butI'd sung from when I was a young
(40:50):
boy.
Sung from when I was a young boyand for any musician, singing
provides a level of oraltraining and comprehension of
how music works that I don'tthink anything else really does
hey presto.
Eventually I landed on voice asmy chief instrument, having sung
all the way through school fromwhen I was about five through
(41:12):
to my late teens.
So I was encouraged to startsinging lessons with Helen Swan,
who is still the director ofthe Resonance, and then went on
to study at the ANU School ofMusic.
But, as Helen actually tellsthe story, coming out of a
(41:47):
school environment where therewas a very, very strong choral
tradition and tradition ofchoral excellence where I went
to school I was musical trainingwho were interested in singing
at a high level and interestedin singing a broad but
(42:08):
challenging repertoire and doingthat well, and originally it
started out as a young adultchoir.
We we notionally put an agelimit of 25, I think, on um on
the choir at the beginning, butas we've continued to enjoy the
experience we've, we've pushedthe ceiling ever higher.
I like to think both in termsof of age and and actually and
(42:31):
actually musical ability andsophistication.
I think we are the best choirnow that we've ever been and we
do some seriously challengingstuff and we've commissioned
music from Australian composerswhich I'm particularly proud of.
I think we sing at a level nowthat exceeds whatever we've done
(42:52):
before.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (42:52):
And listeners.
Just to point out here that Iam a member of the Resonance
Choir and Helen was also mysinging teacher.
But I kind of feel like I gotin because my husband agreed to
come along as well and theyalways need basses.
Michael Wilson (43:05):
So I think it's okay, and I sit next to him at
rehearsal.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (43:10):
Yes, definitely not a young adult
choir anymore, although Helensays that we are still young
adults to her, and so you know,let's go with that.
I'm very happy with that.
Michael Wilson (43:18):
I'm very happy with that too.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (43:20):
Tell listeners what it's like to sing as part
of a choir.
Michael Wilson (43:23):
Singing as part of a choir, I think, is an
experience unlike any other.
There are some similarities toplaying an instrument in an
orchestra, but being amongst agroup of people and surrounded
by sound, and tuning in not onlyto your own musical line but
(43:45):
everything else that's going onin all of the other musical
lines around you, andunderstanding how what you're
doing fits into that and andcontributes and and adds to it
is is quite a quite a magicalexperience, and every day is
different and every place thatyou stand in relation to the
other choir members gives you adifferent experience and and
(44:09):
every piece of piece ofrepertoire and style of music is
different.
And it's also useful to beexposed to different styles of
musical direction, which we'vebeen able to do over the life.
Of the resonance too, it's verydifferent to being an audience
member for a choir, which is agreat pleasure in itself.
(44:31):
But standing in the center ofsound, particularly when
everything's working well, whenthe parts are all well balanced,
when the music's blending well,when everybody who's singing
really gets what the composer istrying to do and really gets
what the director is trying toachieve, that's, um, that's
pretty special it is reallyspecial and it kind of brings me
(44:54):
to an initiative that we'veundertaken, and Michael and I
will be singing together insomething called River Song,
which has brought together ourlove for rivers and also the
choir and our singing.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (45:05):
Can you tell listeners a bit about River Song
?
Michael Wilson (45:08):
well, I probably can't tell listeners as much
about River Song as as you, sh,as you, because it's your
brainchild.
But the idea of Riversong wasboth to lift the profile of the
Australian River RestorationCentre, which Shu-An is CEO of
and is, incidentally, a givingback partner for the E-Water
(45:31):
Group group, where we take ourstaff out, supervised by Shuan's
staff, to do tree planting, torestore the banks of degraded
rivers as often as we can manage, but to lift the profile of the
centre, to give it a neededinjection of resources, which
(45:52):
hopefully, if this works well,will mean it's got access to
flexible funding.
It can do some things that itsnormal sources of resourcing
might not enable it to do,particularly around ignored
parts of our river systems, andbring, I guess, the water
(46:15):
management community, those whoin different ways care about our
rivers, together in a morespiritual conversation about
what rivers mean to us, not justeconomically and
environmentally, but spirituallyand culturally as well.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (46:33):
Oh, that's a lovely, lovely way of phrasing
it, because you're right.
You know, a lot of the idea forme behind this was to share my
love of singing and being up onstage with my friends singing
about rivers.
And you know, in the rehearsalsI often feel close to tears
because I think these people alltrust and believe in the work
(46:54):
that we do on rivers.
And that's been really specialbecause we generally actually
don't talk about work at choir,which is also really nice, like
we just we're just there becausewe enjoy singing.
But in this case, every song isabout a river in some way.
A lot of them are love songs.
The indigenous songs are really, really hard.
We still need to do some morepractising on some of that
(47:14):
language.
But yeah, it is that bringingtogether of song and love and
also rivers themselves.
Michael Wilson (47:22):
And I think, shu-anne, you might have been a
little bit reticent to suggestthe idea to the choir, but
immediately, I think, everyonesort of fell in love with the
concept.
And then we worried about beingable to come up with a full
concert repertoire, butimmediately, I think, everyone
sort of fell in love with theconcept, and then we worried
about being able to come up witha full concert repertoire along
a river theme and actually thatwasn't difficult at all.
(47:44):
There is so much music that isdirectly applicable to what
we're trying to evoke beforethis audience on the 17th of May
.
That's right, there is indeed,and it's a bit like that whole
thing of you know the name ofthis podcast on the 17th of May.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (47:52):
That's right, there is indeed, and it's a bit
like that whole thing of youknow, the name of this podcast
is Take Me to the River, becausewe know that being near a river
, being near water, just doessomething for you.
So yeah, for anyone in theCanberra area, you'd be very
welcome to come along, we'd loveto see you there.
For those that aren't inCanberra, we will record bits of
(48:14):
it for you and look, who knows,if this goes as well.
You know we might be the nextHamilton.
Let's see how we go.
One can only hope one can onlyhope so.
Look, as we come to the end ofwhat's been a really fascinating
conversation, we have threequestions that we ask every
guest, so the first one isaround, do you have a favourite
river or waterway or body ofwater?
Michael Wilson (48:33):
I probably have a few, but I spent much of my
childhood growing up on aproperty south of Captain's Flat
and we had the luck of havingtwo permanent rivers running
through our property and one wascalled the Sherlock Creek and I
(48:57):
spent many happy hours playingaround, fishing in, spotting
platypus in the Sherlock andeven though my family left that
land when I was 13, I think Icould still recognise every foot
of that riverbank, so that's animportant one to me.
(49:19):
The Thredbo River is another one.
My family and I have spent many, mostly summer, holidays in and
around Thredbo and walking upand down that watercourse, and
I'm going to pick the Tilba Lakeas a body of water which again
has a family connection a lakebetween the village of central
(49:41):
Tilba and the beach, sometimesopen to the ocean and sometimes
closed, so it behaves verydifferently depending on the
season and depending on whetherthere's a flow through of water
to the sea, but spent many, manyhours boating and wading and
(50:01):
looking at the wildlife in thatbody of water under the shadow
of Gooligga Mountain, which is,you know, magical and very
important to the local FirstNations people of that part of
New South Wales.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (50:16):
I know that part well and I think for anyone
who's ever been on the show andI've asked that question
there's always been a connectionfor them to a memory or a
family story.
And I think that's why I knowyou were saying earlier oh gosh,
are we going to have enoughrepertoire?
Oh, my goodness.
You know, rivers becomemetaphors for life, for love,
for so many things, as thisconnecting piece.
(50:38):
So it's not surprising, butit's always lovely to hear the
stories that go along with that.
So where do you feel mostconnected to country and to
nature?
Michael Wilson (50:48):
probably out in the bush, where you know I can't
see or hear or feel any sign ofcivilization or human presence.
Thinking of the landscape,particularly this Australian
landscape which for any of uswho've grown up in and around it
has that special affinity, justthe way the bush speaks to you,
(51:12):
the way the trees sound in thewind, the way the wind sounds
blowing through valleys, the waydifferent light plays upon
rocks and trees, that's where Ifeel most connected.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (51:25):
Yeah, I really do.
Yeah, I relate very much tothat.
It's also about all your sensesbeing able to be engaged,
because so much of modern life.
You know, as you were talkingthat, I was thinking, yeah, no
phone that's buzzing in yourpocket, no someone telling you
you have to do this or you haveto do that.
You just stand and yeah, Itotally relate to that.
(51:46):
It's just a sensory experience.
So our final question and I'msure people have already got a
bit of a sense of what motivatesyou to do what you do but at
this point in your career, whichhas been many and varied and
you've still got so much more togive, including your beautiful
voice what drives you to do whatyou do?
Michael Wilson (52:05):
I think, need and the ability to give
something back.
I mean, mean it sounds a bithokey, but the ambition that,
whatever one does you leave theworld a slightly better place.
That's really principally whatdrives me, and it's driven me in
all sorts of areas of endeavourtoo.
(52:27):
So it's possible to find thatmeaning, I think, almost
everywhere you look.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (52:57):
But I have a good deal of pride about most of
the choices I've made throughmy skill set or my level of
passion has a good chance ofhitting home and creating impact
.
Thank you so much, Michael.
It's been a really wonderfulconversation and listeners.
If you're interested in findingout more, we'll have some show
notes along with this episode soyou can look up the
organisations that Michael hastalked about and some of the
projects, and I look forward tobeing with you again at our next
podcast and if you are aroundCanberra on the 17th of May,
(53:18):
please come and join us.
There will be an opportunityfor you to also raise your voice
at Riverside.
Hey, Well done, Michael, Welldone.
Michael Wilson (53:30):
Shalane.
Dr. Siwan Lovett (53:33):
So good.
Thanks so much, michael, forbeing with us today.
It's been a really fascinatingconversation.
For any listeners wanting toknow more, we'll have some show
notes linking to theorganisations Michael's talked
about, as well as, of course, toour upcoming Rivers Song
(53:54):
concert.
We'd love to have you join us.
Bye for now.
You can subscribe to Take Me tothe River.
Wherever you get your podcasts,visit arrcau forward slash
podcast to learn more.
That's ARRCau forward slashpodcast.
(54:15):
We acknowledge and respectAboriginal and Torres Strait
Islander peoples as thetraditional and continuing
custodians of the country andthe rivers on which we live,
learn, love and play.
We respect and learn fromelders past, present and
emerging, valuing theirknowledge, insights, cultures
and connections to the waterwayswe all love and care for and
learn from elders past, presentand emerging, valuing their
knowledge, insights, culturesand connections to the waterways
we all love and care for.
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