August 3, 2025 • 53 mins
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Did you know that a nursing platypus mother must eat up to her entire body weight in food every day to support her and her young? Or that male platypuses have venomous spurs near their back legs that can cause intense pain which is immune to conventional opioid painkillers? Or did you know that technically, based on the word's greek etymology, the plural of platypus is in fact 'platypodes'? These fascinating creatures are more than beloved icons and evolutionary marvels—they're indicator species whose health reflects the condition of our waterways.
The mysterious platypus is one of Australia's most beloved creatures, but these remarkable mammals face increasing threats. Josh Griffiths, Senior Technical Advisor at EnviroDNA and leading expert on platypuses, joins us to share his insights from 17 years studying these enigmatic mammals.
Josh reveals the concerning pattern threatening platypus populations across southeastern Australia. While showing remarkable adaptability to modified environments, platypuses face critical challenges from reduced water flows, habitat fragmentation, and climate change. The Millennium Drought triggered population crashes from which some areas have never recovered, creating a troubling pattern of localized extinctions and genetic isolation.
Siwan and Josh discuss environmental DNA, a tool that allows the precise detection of genetic material left behind by various species in the water. It’s non-invasive and allows for the monitoring of platypus populations on a much higher scale, while opening up opportunities for citizen science.
There are simple actions anyone can take to protect platypuses, like conserving water, cleaning hooks, lines and snags when fishing, and keeping your dog away from platypuses. Josh emphasizes that protecting platypuses isn't just about saving a charismatic species; it's about preserving the ecological systems that sustain all life, including our own.
Ready to become a platypus protector? Listen now to discover how you can help ensure the survival of our beloved platypodes (and their babies, called 'puggles'!) and the rivers they call home.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's about lessening our impact is essentially the
top of the list.
For everything that we do.
I mean I get quite horrifiedabout, I guess, how not
individuals, it's more as asociety we tend to, whether it's
the waste that we produce orpollution, or just, you know,
(00:21):
land clearing.
I desperately want to changethat.
Whether it's for platypus, orwhether it's for the naked mole,
rat or you know a mayfly larvae, whatever it is, I mean it's we
have to, and it's not just acute fuzzy thing.
I mean we have to do it for ourown survival.
Yeah, that's what gets me outof bed, essentially.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Hello and welcome to Take Me to the River, sharing
stories and inspiring hope withextraordinary people who care
for our rivers.
I'm your host, dr Shu-AnneLovett.
Today I'm talking to JoshGriffiths, senior Programme
Manager and Ecologist atEnviroDNA.
Josh is a leading expert onplatypus, one of Australia's
most iconic and unique species,and he's spent over 15 years
(01:07):
researching and protecting thisincredible creature.
He's conducted over 10,000hours of fieldwork across
Victoria, queensland andTasmania, and his work has been
pivotal in ensuring theprotection of platypus
populations, including achievingthe listing of the platypus as
a vulnerable species in Victoria.
As human impacts, includingclimate variability, take a toll
(01:29):
on our rivers and waterways,platypus populations are under
increasing pressure, especiallyduring extreme events like
droughts, flooding and bushfires.
These events have pushed somepopulations to the brink and,
while recovery efforts areunderway, there is still much
work to be done.
Josh shares some insights fromextensive monitoring programs
(01:49):
that track population changesand recovery efforts, giving us
a comprehensive view of theplatypus' future in Australia's
rivers and what work is beingdone to conserve these unique
creatures.
We also talk aboutenvironmental DNA, or eDNA.
This is a tool that allowsscientists to assess river
health and biodiversity bydetecting traces of genetic
(02:10):
material left behind by variousspecies in the water.
It's cost-effective,non-invasive and highly
sensitive, and it's changing thegame for biodiversity research.
(02:30):
Well hi, josh, and welcome toour conversation today.
I am super excited to befinally interviewing you,
because we've been trying quitea few times.
Because I know that you loveplatypus and there are a lot of
people out there who want toknow more about platypus, can
you tell us a bit more aboutyourself and your interest in
platypus and how that developed?
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Sure Well, so I'm a wildlife ecologist but my
specialty for the last 17 yearshas been sort of researching
platypus and monitoringpopulations.
So very quickly I learned thatthere weren't many people that
worked with platypuses for goodreasons, I've discovered, and so
fairly rapidly you become, ininverted commas, an expert in
(03:10):
the field.
So I feel very privileged to beable to have worked with these
critters for so long, becausethey are just such amazing
animals, but also the publicinterest in them is just amazing
.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
They are incredible animals.
I watched a video that was shot, I think, in Hobart in one of
the little streams there, of aguy who went out and sort of
befriended a platypus, got toknow the platypus and
coincidentally then did thisfantastic documentary really on
its movements up and down thesystem and navigating concrete
and all these sorts of things.
But they are incredible, likethey're actually really weird
(03:44):
looking animals as well, aren'tthey?
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Absolutely.
I mean, there's countless memesabout them.
They've got to be the mostunusual mammal in the world at
least I think, and I guessthat's part of their attraction.
There's sort of this mysteryattached to them.
But they're also justincredibly adaptable little
creatures.
You mentioned that stream inHobart, which is where I started
my platypus research inTasmania actually.
(04:08):
You know that's a very highlyurbanised modified stream and
these animals can cope with thatquite well.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Yeah, I think that that has led a little bit to
misunderstanding, though, thatthese creatures are fine because
they're highly adaptable.
And isn't it great that we'reseeing them in our cities?
They're actually there becausetheir own habitat is being sort
of basically diminished.
Would that be fair to say?
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Absolutely.
I mean, the reason I think thatmost people think that they're
okay is that we just haven't hadany good information on them
previously, and up until maybe10 years ago, even people were
still kind of thinkingeverything's okay.
And I guess it was probablyreally the millennium drought
and you know, some of themonitoring that we were doing in
(04:53):
Melbourne and some other groupswere doing as well that, I
guess, highlighted that maybeeverything's not so rosy with
platypuses.
But yes, we do find them in themiddle of cities, we find them
in sort of agricultural areas,we find them in lovely, you know
, forested mountain streams aswell.
They are very adaptable, butyou know, obviously they're
dependent on aquatic ecosystemsand there's a lot of things that
(05:15):
threaten those ecosystems and Iguess we're really just
starting to uncover what thoseimpacts are having on platypuses
.
Now One of the challenges isthat we simply don't know what
numbers used to be like, and itmakes my job really difficult
when you're trying to quantifydeclines is that you've got no
historical data to compare with.
(05:35):
So really, all we've got to sayis we know that platypus used
to be here 20 years ago, 50years ago.
They're still there now, butthey're most likely in much
lower abundance.
And we see from the very fewstudies that have long-term data
and yes, they might be in someof the more modified
environments, like a lot of thework that we do in Melbourne
(05:56):
that we've seen these massivedeclines and even localised
extinctions in some areas.
Largely that was over themillennium drought, which not
surprisingly droughts are badfor aquatic species and
thankfully we are seeingpopulations bounce back from
that now.
But during those declines youdo see them disappear from some
areas and once they havedisappeared they're very rarely
(06:20):
going back into those waterwaysagain.
So while we see recovery, yeah,it's almost death by a thousand
cuts, because I mentioned weare seeing recovery of
populations, but the areas thatthey've disappeared from they're
not recolonising for variousreasons.
Usually the habitat's just notsuitable.
So while we see the populationbounce back in some areas
(06:42):
they've disappeared permanentlyfrom others and so we get that
sort of gradual erosion of theirdistribution.
See the population bounce backin some areas, they've
disappeared permanently fromothers and so we get that sort
of gradual erosion of theirdistribution which in isolation
doesn't look like much but overtime it accumulates.
And yeah, tom Grant, who's theplatypus guru, I would say coins
at death by a thousand cuts,and that's exactly what we're
seeing.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
So you're talking about platypus numbers
decreasing in terms of abundance?
Is that having a knock-oneffect with genetic diversity
within the species?
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Yeah, I mean it's one of the things that we don't
have a great handle on becauseno one's looking at it a great
deal.
We've certainly.
Every time we catch a platypuswe take a genetic sample.
We recently completed somepopulation genetic analysis and
they're reasonably robust.
I mean platypus are a little bitresilient to those, I guess,
genetic declines because theyare quite long-lived.
(07:32):
They do seem to have quitenaturally diverse genetics, but
we're certainly seeing some ofthose known isolated populations
within Melbourne and also onein western Victoria where we're
starting to see a decline inthat genetic diversity.
The concern is that becausethey are such long-lived
creatures that we're only juststarting to see the tip of the
(07:55):
iceberg and it could spiral downquite quickly.
So certainly something thatneeds to be considered.
I guess in the longer term, themore immediate concerns are
really about making sure theirhabitat's available and the
populations are going to survive.
But certainly we're talking tosome of these waterway managers
around potential for genetictranslocations in the future,
(08:16):
which has never been done forplatypuses before anyway, and
how that might come about, whatsort of demographics would be
required and things like that.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
So if you're a little platypus, do you move a lot or
do you have sort of a home rangeand that's your patch.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
A bit of both, to be honest.
They're incredibly mobilecreatures.
So even when they've got theirestablished home ranges, they're
you know a female will roamover about one to two or three
kilometres.
Adult males can have homeranges up to six, seven
kilometres long.
So they are very mobilecreatures and it's probably to
(08:54):
do with a lot of their foodsupply and having enough
reliable food across that rangeto support them.
But we've had records ofjuvenile males in particular
dispersing sort of 50, 60kilometres from where they were
caught as juveniles to where wesee them again as adults.
Now we don't record those verywell because they just disappear
(09:15):
out of areas that you knowwe're trapping and we never see
them again.
But yeah, we do see these longdistance dispersals, provided
that habitat is available andall connected for them to move.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
And do the male and females only come together to
mate, or do they co-parent, soto speak?
Speaker 1 (09:33):
No, they're very solitary critters.
So, yeah, so males and femaleswill essentially come together
for a day or a couple of days,go through their courtship
routine and then mate, and thenbasically the male is done,
he'll go find another mate if hecan mate, and then basically
the male is done, he'll go findanother mate if he can.
The female will then hopefullygo into her burrow and raise her
young for a few months, buteven when those young emerge
(09:53):
from the burrow they don't hangout with mum for very long.
They seem to hang out togetherfor a couple of weeks and then
essentially they're independentagain.
So you don't see family groups,you don't see sort of long-term
pairs.
They're a very solitary andindependent little critter.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Now there's great debate over the right
terminology to use for thebabies.
I'm sure I've heard puggle andI'm not sure that's right.
You better let our listenersknow what's the official term.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Well, the problem is there is no official term and I
think it's probably because fora very long time no one ever saw
baby platypuses Like by thetime they come out of their
burrow they are sort of twothirds grown, so we don't see
little baby platypuses at all inthe wild.
Puggle is actually a term for ababy echidna.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
There you go.
That's completely wrong.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Well, it's not that far off, because they are the
platypus's closest relative andwhen they're young it's actually
incredibly difficult to tellthe difference between a
platypus and an echidna untilthey're about sort of four or
five weeks old and the echidnagets his long nose and so on.
So that term has sort of beenadopted for baby platypuses in
recent years, but it's notreally an official term.
I think it's sort of beenadopted for baby platypuses in
recent years, but it's notreally an official term.
(11:06):
I think it's sort of got thepublic vote.
I've been pushing for platypupsbut it's not really getting any
traction.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
I quite like platypups.
I don't know what it is aboutPuggle.
I think it's because it's closeto Snuggle and you know when
they're born they look allvelvety.
When I've looked at the youknow the video footage of
Burrows they look super cute.
Platterpup's actually not bad.
That's pretty good.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
And Puggles is such a cute name.
It's the kind of thing that Idon't know.
Maybe a child might name theirtoy or something like that.
So I see why it's been adoptedand and you know, personally I
don't really mind if people callbaby platypuses puggles, that's
fine, but yeah, there isactually no official term as of
yet, and I also know that youuse the word platypuses.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
I have heard platypi, so tell me the right way to go
there, josh, as an expert onplatypuses.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
This is actually out of all my research, all the
things that we learn aboutplatypuses, all the actually out
of all my research, all thethings that we learn about
platypuses all the interestingfeatures.
This is by far the most commonquestion.
I get People like platypi.
Platypi is definitely incorrect, the reason being that the root
of platypus is actually Greek,so the correct term is actually
(12:22):
platypodes.
Wow, but the anglicised versionof that is platypuses.
I quite like platypodes.
I've spoken to a number ofpeople recently that really like
it.
I thought I would never get itadopted.
But yeah, technically, or itmight be platypodes Platypodes,
I'm not quite sure the correctpronunciation, but yeah, that's
(12:46):
the correct term and it would bethe same for octopodes as well.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
It would.
It would indeed.
Oh, that's fascinating.
My late father-in-law is aGreek specialist so he's not
around.
I can't go and ask him, butthat's fascinating.
Okay, so we could try a wholenew movement of platypodes to
actually get the name changed.
It's kind of funny calling itplatypuses and then we have
platypups.
Like that just seems weird.
We've got cats and dogs and allsorts of things getting mixed
(13:14):
up there.
Now that leads me to talkingabout predators.
Are feral cats a problem, feraldogs a problem?
With platypuses, what's theirmain sort of prey really?
Or what do they prey for?
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Well, they don't really have any natural
predators.
Possibly up in northernQueensland they might get taken
by the odd crocodile or two, butreally in most of our waterways
across their range they are theapex predator.
In these waterways there'salmost certainly predators of
their eggs and maybe young.
I've seen videos of snakes andrakali heading towards their
(13:51):
burrows.
In fact I saw an amazing videoof a adult female platypus
attacking and drowning a rakalias it was trying to get into its
burrow, which I've never seenbefore.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Oh, wow that would be amazing.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
So you know good on mama platypus, but yeah, as
adults they don't really haveany predators.
We occasionally get records ofthings like eagles carrying a
dead platypus off, but it'salmost certainly scavenged that
animal.
Now they do have things likedogs and foxes in particular.
No evidence of cats being anissue.
(14:24):
They're probably a little bittoo large for cats, but
certainly dogs and foxes.
But even then, like if they'vegot healthy habitat and they've
got nice deep water.
You know dogs and foxes aren'tpredating them in the water.
It's only when they have toleave their nice creeks and
travel across land, eitherbecause the creek dries up or
we've stuck a big dam in the wayor we've put a culvert under a
(14:48):
road that's been poorly designedand they have to get out and
move around it.
Once they're on land they areincredibly vulnerable to
predation and that tends to bewhere we see it happening.
When I was in Tassie it wasquite common to hear about.
You know, someone's dog hadtaken a platypus, because they
do seem to spend a bit more timeon land in Tasmania.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Is that because it's wetter, so that it's nice?
Well, and that's a grossgeneralisation.
But why should it be differentin Tasmania to elsewhere?
Speaker 1 (15:19):
There's probably a couple of reasons, and I'm very
much guessing here.
Temperature is probably goingto be one of them.
When they leave the water, ifit's warm weather, they can very
easily overheat and die thatway.
Also, there's so many waterwaysin Tasmania that the distance
between them isn't very far.
So we know that historically,overland dispersal was quite
(15:41):
important for them to coloniseand spread their genetics
between catchments.
But now, because we're takingwater out of our waterways,
we're modifying the land aroundthem.
It's much harder for them tomove between creeks, even if
they're quite close.
So a lot of that overlanddispersal just doesn't seem to
occur anymore.
And when it does, we then putpredators in their way as well
(16:03):
and cars and things like that.
So we're actually seeing thatthe genetics within catchments
are sort of becoming more andmore differentiated from their
neighbouring ones, because thatoverland dispersal just isn't
really happening anymore.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Yeah, I was wondering that we're doing a lot of work
on Macquarie perch, which isreally an animal, a fish in
danger, and Mark Linterman's ascientist.
We actually interviewed himjust a couple of days ago.
He's starting an Uber servicefor Macquarie perch on the upper
Murrumbidgee, which is histranslocation program, and we
said he should call it Tinderand he said no, it's Finder, of
(16:40):
course, because he's movingthese fish up and down.
Now, anyone listening, I'mencouraging you do not go and
pick platypus up and move themaround at all.
We're not at that point yet.
In terms of those trends thatyou've talked about with
platypus populations, what, whatis it that is is most
concerning.
Is it just abundance or is itlocation?
(17:03):
What is it that we're trying todo to address that, now that
we've got a bit more informationthat, yes, indeed, the numbers
are dropping?
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Yeah, well, I mean, I guess the main thing is getting
that evidence to say, hey look,there is a problem, and then
trying to identify what theproblems are.
And, as you would know, it'snever going to be a simple,
straightforward answer.
But more and more we're seeingthat a lot of the issues are
around flow regimes andgenerally a reduction in water
(17:33):
and that might be, let's say,naturally from drought, but of
course that's being exacerbatedthrough climate change and
that's getting worse.
We're seeing less rainfall ingeneral in sort of southeastern
Australia, and that's predictedto get worse again.
The patterns of rainfall arechanging.
So you know, particularly herein Victoria, we've had a couple
(17:55):
of really dry winters over thelast probably five years and
then wet summers.
So you know, the nature of ourwaterways are changing and that
sort of affects everything from,you know, the algae up to
platypuses.
But more than anything it'spurely a reduction in flows,
which means less habitat, lessfood abundance, less
(18:18):
connectivity between waterways.
That's primarily driving thesesort of large population trends.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
So when you talk about flow, what does that
actually mean?
Because some of our listenersmight not understand, like when
you say, well, it's flowing, sowhat's the issue?
What's a flow regime?
Speaker 1 (18:34):
So we know that the amount of water that goes down
our waterways changes throughthe year.
We get more rainfall in winter,so flows tend to increase.
We get increases, you know,during, so flows tend to
increase.
We get increases, you know,during, between days as well.
So the variation in flowfollows kind of natural patterns
and our fauna, everything thatlives in that waterway, is
(18:54):
adapted to these patterns andonce we start changing them it
changes how well some of thosefauna can survive, and so it
might be things like that.
The bug community that we seechanges from something that
enjoys kind of this nicevariable flow to when we start
reducing that flow to more sortof stagnant water.
(19:14):
It changes the type of bugsthat live there.
Of course those are the type ofbugs that live there.
Of course those are the kind ofthings that platypus and fish
and other organisms eat, and soit changes their food resources,
which might make it lesssuitable or less abundant for
them.
But then of course the amountof water in a river influences
the amount of habitat that'savailable.
So you think about the totalamount of wetted area along
(19:37):
waterways.
If we start shrinking those, weget 30% less habitat, so that
means it can support 30% lessbugs and 30% less platypuses.
So, you know, all of thesethings contribute to the entire
ecosystem of our waterways andyou know, platypuses are quite
adaptable, but they do needwater to live in, they do need
(19:59):
lots of bugs to eat, and so itcreates this cascade effect of,
once we start, you know,reducing the amount of bugs,
there's less food for platypusesand fish, and that means they
might not reproduce for a yearor so, on and so on.
So the platypus also live quitehappily in stagnant water,
which is something that peopledon't tend to think of.
They think that platypus onlylive in flowing water.
(20:19):
They do survive in farm dams,in lakes and reservoirs and
things as well, but they do needthat food supply.
They need somewhere to burrowand they need water to be able
to swim and forage in.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
So I'm sure I heard some amazing fact about how much
they need to eat.
What's the body weight thatthey need to eat each day of the
bugs that you're talking about?
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Yeah, and this is generally measured in captivity.
So you know there's going to bea little bit of variability
around that, but typicallybetween about a quarter and a
third of their body weight perday.
So if you think about, even say, a little female platypus, that
might only be a kilo.
She needs, you know, 300 gramsof tiny little bugs every day.
(21:02):
Now, during breeding season, ifthat same female is raising
young and having to lactate andraise those young, they're
completely dependent on her forabout three months so they only
survive on her milk.
They're not foraging forthemselves at all at this stage.
She will increase her foodintake to up to her body weight
per day.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Wow, that's a lot of beetling around to find fish.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
They might get lucky and find a nice juicy yabby
which will keep them going for awhile, but generally it's these
tiny little bugs, little snails, worms and so on.
So it's a lot of food, meansthey've got to do a lot of
foraging and they can be activefor 12, 14 hours a day to find
that amount of food.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
That's a lot of work.
That sounds very, very busy forthe mum.
Does she just get a break whenthey it's probably like look,
you're on your own now, I'mkicking you out?
Maybe that's why they don'tcontinue to look after them
after the three months.
Maybe that's right, yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
And usually by the time they get to that stage,
poor mum is.
So you know she's lost all herbody weight.
She's looking in pretty poorcondition and it's probably why
she actually doesn't very oftenreproduce on consecutive years.
If she's raised young one year,she's so drained and so poor
condition that she goes like I'mgoing to have a break now.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
I'll reproduce again in two years time.
Oh, I didn't realise that.
That's incredible.
So her body will basically justnot put her into, I suppose,
oestrus, or whatever it might becalled.
I don't know what it's calledfor platypus.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Yeah, I mean, we know that happens in other mammals.
We assume that that's sort of asimilar case for platypuses as
well.
If she doesn't have enough bodyfat, then yeah, she won't go
into oestrus.
But yeah, typically it's onlyabout a third of any females in
any population that are breedingduring any one season.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Now I know that really concerningly, but all
credit to you.
You've managed to work to getthe platypus listed as
vulnerable in Victoria.
What does vulnerable mean andwhat do we need people to do in
order to stop that platypus frombeing on that vulnerable list?
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Yeah, I mean essentially by getting platypus
onto any of these threatenedspecies list.
It means they then get greaterlegal protection, so there's a
lot of benefits to that.
It also means they get a lotmore sort of monetary investment
.
Once species are listed asthreatened or vulnerable, you
know governments will contributemoney towards either habitat
(23:25):
protection or more research, sothere's a lot of flow-on
benefits for it.
Vulnerable is, I guess, astatus along the continuum of
things are doing fine to they'recompletely extinct.
So vulnerable is at the lowerend of that sort of threatened
listing level.
It means that populations aredeclining.
There's been around a 30%decline over three generations.
(23:50):
Victoria is really the only spotthat we've got any sort of data
that can tell us that, and eventhen it's quite localised.
So the state level listingsrequire a bit less rigour in the
data.
There's a bit more sort ofemphasis on extrapolating that
data and expert opinion, whereasto do that at the federal level
we really need to have harddata to back up our assumptions
(24:13):
a bit more, and we simply don'thave that data at a national
level, or we haven't.
I think we probably got a fairbit of information now that we
could put together a good caseagain.
But yeah, I mean it's sayingthat there's certainly concerns
around the population we knowit's declining.
There's concerns around thethreats that they face and the
fact that they're likely to getworse in future.
(24:34):
And, yeah, we think that itprobably should get looked at in
a bit more detail at thenational level as well.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
So if you sort of live in an urban area or even a
regional area and you know thatthere's platypus in the local
creek or waterway, what sort ofthings can you do to actually
help that animal to survive andhopefully thrive?
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Yeah, and it's something that we get asked a
lot, particularly when I dotalks to community groups.
People always want to know whatthey can do, and I mean a lot
of.
The threats that they face arevery large scale and difficult
for individuals to impact, whichmakes them feel a little bit
helpless.
But the reality is that thethreats come from incremental
(25:14):
increases in things like lack ofwater.
So every time that we can savea bit of water whether it's a
shorter shower or not, washingthe car, whatever it might be
you know water conservation,that water comes from platypus
habitat a lot of the time.
So if we can use less water ineverything that we do, then
there's potential for more waterto get returned for the
environment.
Certainly, you know, if peoplehave property, they've got
(25:37):
creeks on their waterway.
There's things that can be donein terms of improving habitat.
So fencing out stock,protecting the banks that are
critical for platypus to burrowon, native revegetation,
removing willows all these kindof things help improve habitat.
And then even those more directthings like being aware of your
dogs around waterways whenyou're walking them, so keeping
(25:59):
them on a leash, particularlyaround dawn and dusk and
particularly when you get thosejuveniles emerging from burrows
because, like most animals,juvenile platypuses are a bit
naive and dumb, so they geteasily taken by dogs Picking up
litter, being aware of yourfishing practices and retrieving
your snagged lines, things likethat.
(26:20):
So all of these things are justlittle bits and pieces that
individuals can do thatcollectively can make a
significant impact.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
I love that because you've just outlined such a
range, and it is something aboutus humans we want to act.
Us humans, we want to act, andso when someone like you
provides us with a whole list ofways that we can do things,
that gives us confidence to act,which is very much what we try
and do at the River RestorationCentre, which is to say, all
rivers can benefit from yourinterest, from your involvement,
(26:50):
from the tiniest thing to areally huge thing.
So thank you very much.
You explained that reallyreally well.
One other thing that I haveheard about is opera house nets.
What was the issue with operahouse nets?
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Yeah.
So for those that don't know,opera house nets are these
enclosed mesh nets that whenthey're folded out, they look a
bit like the opera house, wherethey got their name from.
They're used to catch yabbiesand crayfish in waterways and
they get thrown into these deepwater.
They're fully submerged, theyget baited with a bit of meat
(27:22):
and the crayfish go in there andthey're captured.
The problem is that platypuseat crayfish, and so as soon as
a small yabby or a crayfish goesinto one of these nets, it
becomes a baited trap for aplatypus, and so platypus can
get through these openings, butbecause they're an enclosed net,
they then can't escape and, asa mammal, platypus can hold
their breath for about well,maybe a little bit longer than
you or me, but typically aplatypus will drown within about
(27:42):
two to three minutes.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Wow, I had no idea, it was so quick.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Yep, I think they can hold their breath up to about
10 minutes.
If they do this cool thing.
When they're evading predators,they'll wedge themselves under
a log or something, which meansthey're not using any oxygen,
they're not swimming, but whenthey're in a net and they're
struggling to free themselves,yep, they'll drown within a
couple of minutes, and so wewere getting reports of maybe
five or 10 platypuses a year inVictoria that were being drowned
(28:09):
by these nets.
That's probably a very smallpercentage of the actual problem
, because we mostly would nothear about this, and so there'd
been a number of attempts overthe years to have these things
banned for just this reason, andthankfully, a few years ago,
myself and a range of otherorganisations sort of banded
together to have another crackat it, and we managed to get
(28:30):
them completely banned inVictoria.
We got them pulled from shelvesfrom most of the retailers
voluntarily, which was great.
The ban I think it wasimplemented in 2019, and we have
not had a single reporteddrowning of platypuses since
then.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Oh, that's amazing.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
And the important thing is, it's not about
stopping people from catchingtheir crayfish, catching their
yabbies.
It was about implementing adifferent type of net that is
just as effective but is safefor wildlife.
So it wasn't removing anactivity for recreational
fishers if that's what they wantto do, but it's about
protecting wildlife while stillbeing able to do your activities
(29:07):
.
So that was a great win.
It was probably one of thethings that stands out for me
over my almost 20 years just anunnecessary threat that they
were facing, and not so much thefact that it was, I guess,
causing declines in populations,but it's an animal ethics issue
, like the thought of one ofthese animals drowning in one of
these nets was just horriblefor everyone.
(29:29):
So I'm so grateful for thegroup of people that gave up
their time and efforts to makethat happen, and we're now
seeing that flow on to otherstates as well, which has been
great.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
I was about to ask is that happening elsewhere?
And I think one of the thingsI've noticed with platypus I
have a number of friends to doplatypus watch.
They'll go and do platypussurveys.
There's a lot of publicinterest and actually ability to
get involved in caring forplatypus, whether it's going out
doing the sightings, working onhabitat.
Have you seen that grow overthe last few years or has it
(30:01):
stayed pretty much the same inyour area?
Speaker 1 (30:03):
No, definitely growing, and I guess it's one of
the things that we tend to do alot of that sort of community
engagement and advocacy typethings, whether it's just
talking to groups about ourtrapping results, which they're
often interested in.
More recently we've had, youknow, community groups doing
their own rigorous monitoringusing environmental DNA which
(30:24):
people can go out and dothemselves.
So you know, that's kind ofthat next level of getting
people actively involved in someof the research.
Certainly, as you mentionedbefore, you know people wanting
to do something to make a change.
And one of the things that I dosee, particularly working in an
urban space, a lot we see issuesaround litter in our waterways
and platypus are really good atgetting entangled in anything
(30:45):
that's an enclosed loop.
And when I sort of mentioned topeople, I try to not show the
photos anymore, but I mentionedto people some of the horrific
things I see from something likea rubber band or a hair tie,
and then I'll get emails fromprimary school students the next
week saying, oh, we picked upseven hair ties on the way to
school this morning.
It's just amazing.
(31:06):
People really resonate withsome of those issues and then
actively go out and do somethingabout it.
So yeah, I guess giving peoplea call to action is always what
we strive for.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Yeah, I love those stories and I want to come to
environmental DNA, but before wedo that, what's the most
surprising or funny experienceyou've had relating to platypus?
Because they're an amazinglooking creature with that tail
and then the feet and, like thewhole thing, they look like
they're an accumulation of lotsof different animals.
But, yeah, what's the mostfunny or surprising thing you've
(31:39):
had happen?
Speaker 1 (31:40):
oh gosh, you put me on the spot there um I mean I
will always remember the, thefirst platypus I ever caught.
That's just a bit of a personalmilestone.
I actually the one that sticksout to me.
I I got six platypus in asingle net one night.
So platypus I mentioned.
Single net one night.
So platypus I mentioned they'requite solitary creatures.
Before we often do entire nightsurveys and you know, catch a
(32:02):
single animal, that's it.
Yeah, to get six in a singlenet was both a bit concerning
but also amazing, and it was Ialmost had to like juggle them
as I'm pulling them out andgetting them into bags.
Yeah, so that was quite amazing, considering I, you know I can
go for a week of trapping andnot catch six.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
In some places Were they related.
Do you think had they just comeout of a burrow together or
were they, you know, a whole mix.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Yeah, I'm not quite sure what drove it.
It was kind of on the edge ofthe Yarra River, I think.
Maybe there was a bit of flowin the creek that I was in and
flow tends to trigger a bit ofexploration by platypuses.
So I think they all sort ofcame out the river and went
straight into our net.
Yeah, I mean, we check the netsevery couple of hours so that
they're not stuck there for verylong.
(32:50):
So for that to happen in such ashort time period was quite
amazing.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Potentially some of the males chasing some of the
females as well.
It was that time of the year.
Maybe it was date night, whoknows?
Speaker 1 (33:01):
It could have been.
Yes, it was platypus tinder.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Yeah, that's right, exactly.
Well, tinder, or oh, what dothey have?
They have webbed, anyway.
We could go down a wholetangent there.
So when you're surveying them,just to let people know, of
course these nets are for surveypurposes only, it's not as a
sport when you bring them in andyou talk about genetic material
, is that a blood sample?
I know for fish it's a fin clip.
What is it that you're going tokeep, I guess, and then you can
(33:27):
refer back to later?
Basically, can't you that youcan let the animal go and you've
still got a whole lot of detailabout that animal?
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Yeah, you're right, and yes, I should clarify.
These surveys are structured.
They're designed forunderstanding how populations
are going, both numbers anddemographics and so forth.
But yeah, so every time wecatch a platypus they all get a
little microchip so we canidentify them again.
We take a number ofmeasurements check their health,
as I mentioned before.
They do get tangled in litter abit, so I check them over to
(33:55):
make sure that they're clear oflitter.
And then we take a little pieceof their webbing from their
back foot, so the webbing issort of like a keratinised skin.
So we take about a onemillimetre by one millimetre
little snip from that which goesinto some ethanol and then on a
shelf for analysis later on.
And so when we do that analysis,we can look at things like
(34:16):
genetic diversity of thepopulation as a whole to see how
healthy that population is.
We can estimate things likeeffective population size, which
is a really important metricfor wildlife populations.
It's the number of animals thatare actually reproducing and
contributing to futuregenerations.
We can look at how relatedindividuals are between each
other.
We can track their parents andso on.
(34:38):
So yeah, there's a lot ofinformation that we can get from
a tiny little bit of DNA fromthem and then that whole process
.
They get back in the waterwithin about 15 minutes.
They can go back on and livetheir platypus lives for the
rest of the night.
So it's about sort ofminimising stress and
disturbance to the animals asmuch as possible.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Now Mark Lintermans, who I just mentioned earlier.
He got a platypus when he wasactually out surveying for
Macquarie perch and he actuallygot spurred.
Have you ever been spurred?
Speaker 1 (35:07):
He was really, really sick, yeah, oh wow, I'd love to
chat to him about it.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
No, I haven't been spurred.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
I think that tends to be what happens.
The people that do get spurred,it tends to be sort of members
of the public that might have, Idon't know, found a sick or
injured platypus, or maybehooked one while they're fishing
or something, and I feel likethey're often just not aware
that platypus are one of the fewvenomous mammals in the world.
And you know, as you do, youwould probably cradle the animal
underneath and you get a youknow half an inch spur buried
(35:40):
into your arm or hand.
So, um, yep, their venom ispretty nasty.
It's really only during thebreeding season that the males,
um, their venom production goesthrough the roof.
Their venom glands swell up andthey get a bit.
They get a bit gnarky, butusually, if if you're aware of
it and you sort of know how tohandle them correctly, it's
quite easy to actually avoid it,because they do have quite
(36:03):
short limbs and the spurs canonly really reach directly
underneath them.
So, bea, I have heard it'squite a horrible experience and
things like all our opiates,morphine and so on have no
effect on it.
It's a very painful experience.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
It is.
I'd really felt for him and, ofcourse, mark's been surveying
for like decades and never hadthis happen.
It was an accident, I think, inthe sense that he was actually
trying to free the animal who'dgot caught, and the animal did
go free, but, yeah, mark wassick for quite some time.
Yeah, yeah.
So there you go.
I'm happy to put you in touchwith him and he can tell you his
story.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
Maybe I better run him through the correct handling
procedures, just in case ithappens again.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
Yeah, well, there you go.
I'm sure you can see if he'sreceptive to that or not.
Okay, so one of the thingsyou've said is about platypus
being apex predators, but alsothat they rely on a whole lot of
bugs.
I want to now move to sort ofyour day-to-day job, which is
EnviroDNA.
Can you explain what EnviroDNAactually is?
Speaker 1 (37:07):
Sure, I mean, essentially it's another tool
that we can use to surveywildlife.
All organisms are leaving DNAbehind, whether it's a bug,
whether it's a platypus, whetherit's a bit of algae, whatever
it might be.
In aquatic systems, that DNAsort of disperses throughout the
water.
It flows downstream, and nowour genetic techniques, the
(37:36):
tools and the machines that weuse are now so sensitive and, I
guess, getting cheaper to usethat we can detect these tiny
traces of DNA.
So what we do with platypus isthat we've designed this genetic
probe that matches a segment ofthe platypus DNA that is unique
to that species.
So this probe will only bind toits matching DNA.
So it ignores everything elsethere and says this is my
(37:57):
matching, this is my platypusDNA binds to it and that lets
off a little fluorescent signalto say, hey, here I am and we
can measure that fluorescence.
That's actually what we'relooking at, and the amount of
fluorescence correlates with theamount of DNA and so we can
look at.
You know, how strong thatsignal is, and so forth.
But it's an amazing technique.
It's another tool that we'vegot in our sort of wildlife tool
(38:20):
belt and Amazing technique.
It's another tool that we'vegot in our sort of wildlife tool
belt and we can use it todetect platypus.
We can detect a lot of fishspecies.
Essentially, any species that'sleaving DNA behind we're able
to detect using this methodology.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
So do you sort of go and do a scoop and then you know
, pop it into a I don't know amachine and then it spits out
all the DNA that it's found, oris it more that you have a
specific thing that you'relooking for in that area?
Speaker 1 (38:50):
It depends on what we're trying to achieve.
So typically, if I'm looking forplatypus, I'm probably taking a
number of samples over a quitelarge area because they are very
widespread and dispersed, butwe will take an amount of water
directly out of the waterway.
We tend to filter it on site, sowe pass this water through a
very fine filter, which might beanything from sort of about one
(39:11):
to five microns.
So we're not having totransport water around the place
, we just have this filter thatcaptures all of our cells, all
of our DNA, and of course,that's DNA from a range of
different organisms it could bealgae, fungi, bacteria,
hopefully some platypus in thereand then it goes back to our
lab and we have a very good labteam that can then extract that
(39:32):
DNA, apply our platypus probeand tell us whether platypus DNA
is there or not.
So it's for something likeplatypus that are an incredibly
difficult species to study, verytime and labour intensive
process to try to capture them.
It's really revolutionised whatwe're able to do and the scale
(39:53):
that we're able to do things.
But essentially, yeah, we cando the same with a range of
different organisms.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
So you were saying that even citizen science is
getting in on the eDNA.
Is that sort of a morecontrolled just looking for one
thing?
How does that work?
Speaker 1 (40:08):
Yeah, and it was something we probably didn't
really think of when we startedgoing down this path.
But the water collectionprocess is incredibly simple.
It can be very simple.
So I've done it witheight-year-olds, I've done it
with 80-year-olds.
With some simple instructionsand some guidelines, people can
go out and collect their ownwater samples and then send them
(40:29):
back to our lab for theanalysis, and so it means that
we can design survey programswith some scientific rigour so
we can select the sites where wewant them to be, to answer what
our key questions are, andstill get the community involved
in collecting those samples andmaybe doing some habitat
assessments while we're outthere.
So what we're finding is itdoesn't just hit the sort of
(40:51):
citizen part of citizen science,but we can actually get some
really good, rigorous data outof it as well, which I think you
know.
Sometimes citizen scienceprograms are a bit, I guess, ad
hoc, which doesn't mean the datais no good.
But you know, ideally whenyou're doing these wildlife
surveys, you want some rigourand some good design behind them
(41:11):
.
So with this we're able to tickboth boxes and, as an example,
we actually did a statewidesurvey of platypuses throughout
Victoria a couple of years agoand it was I think it was about
90% done by citizen scientists,and during COVID as well, which
was just another layer ofcomplexity.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
Yeah, and they would have been doing it alone as well
If it was in COVID.
I do know about citizen sciencebecause my mum led Waterwatch
here in the ACT for many, manyyears and as a scientist herself
, she was really concerned aboutgetting rigor into that program
because sometimes people aregoing oh you know, that's just
Waterwatch.
But it's actually become a veryrigorous testing process, here
(41:49):
in the ACT at least, and I knowit's suffered from funding
fluctuations, as a lot of thesethings do in some of the other
states.
But they now produce every yearsomething called a CHIP, which
is a catchment health indicatorreport, and it goes through
every catchment in this areawith all of the water quality
details and you can see how eDNAcould provide yet another level
(42:09):
to say that link between.
So this is the quality of thewater and this is what we're
finding is in the water as aresult.
So what do you think theapplications for eDNA are going
to be?
I mean, it's a clearly an areathat's going to keep growing, I
would think yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
I mean I think the the value from I mean, look,
there's a range of things thatcan be done.
I think the highest value isdoing things at scale.
So, whether that's at acatchment or a statewide or a
national scale, that we simplycan't do with traditional
techniques.
So, and even with I mean, if Igot unlimited funding thrown at
(42:45):
me to do a platypus program,with trapping, there's areas
that I simply cannot set my netsI can't access, you can't put
the net safely, so you're muchless restricted.
When you just have to go andtake a water sample, it's much
easier to do.
So doing things at scale andthen being able to, I guess,
correlate that data with thingslike water quality or vegetation
(43:08):
type or land use, it means thatwe've now got the tools to
gather data, to do good analysis.
So that's sort of what I lookat it from a single species
perspective.
But what we're often doing with,say, citizen science projects,
is that maybe the community isinterested in platypus and we
can go and get data onplatypuses, but we can use those
(43:28):
same samples to scan for, say,all the fish in the area which
maybe the community is not asinterested in but the catchment
management authority really wantto know.
So you know, we can sort of useplatypus as that flagship to
then gather information on arange of other species and I
think going forward we'll startseeing people look at the whole
(43:50):
spectrum of biodiversity.
So we can look at bacteria andfungi and macroinvertebrates
right up to platypus.
So we're getting a much moreholistic view of what the
biodiversity is in an area.
It also gives you much greaterpower to detect change, because
you're looking at hundreds, ifnot thousands, of organisms at
each site as opposed to, youknow, maybe half a dozen fish.
(44:13):
So you know the statisticianswill love those kind of numbers,
but it's something that's, Iguess, just starting to evolve a
bit more.
People are very much stillfocused on those big vertebrate
species, but I think more andmore we'll start seeing people
look at this sort of moreholistic view.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
It sounds incredible to me.
I know for us we've beenlooking at eDNA to see if we can
identify if there's any redfin,in particular stretches of the
Murrumbidgee River, because theypose a big threat to the Macca
perch.
But, as you say, it's one tool,isn't it?
Because we've also backed thatup with, you know, going out and
actually fishing and seeing ifwe find any.
Unfortunately we didn't, whichis really, really good.
Speaker 1 (44:48):
And often that's how we're seeing it implemented,
because EDNA can be reallysensitive.
It's great at picking up thoseearly incursions.
So maybe an early warningsignal, but it might trigger
then maybe to go out and do somemore intensive electrofishing
or trapping.
But you can do it in a verytargeted way because you've
already got evidence to say, heylook, this species is there.
So the combination oftechniques is an incredibly
(45:11):
powerful way to go about it.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
And, in terms of analysing those samples, is it
likely that artificialintelligence is going to be able
to speed that process up, or isit a very human endeavour?
Speaker 1 (45:23):
Good question.
I mean, more and more theprocesses are becoming automated
.
So you know, we have a machinethat will essentially do most of
the DNA extraction side of it.
We have another machine thatwill do some of the liquid
handling.
Ai is probably very far out ofmy area of expertise.
I think where AI can probablyplay a bigger role is more at
the data analysis side of it.
(45:44):
So those sort of machinelearning models that you can
then train to.
I guess if you're constantlyfeeding data in, you can
constantly keep reanalyzing theinformation and spitting out
sort of live data.
But I don't know, it might putme out of a job.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
Look, I was really sceptical about good old chat
GPT, but I am finding itactually so useful in doing that
bit of that initial analysis ofsomething.
I can put a whole lot of gumpin, because we do so much
science communication Ishouldn't say gump so I can put
four pages of something in andsay what's this actually about,
and it's actually quite good atpulling out some of those key
(46:25):
messages.
You can also go down anotherabsolute rabbit hole where you
ask it to create an image ofsomething I've seen your talks.
You've seen my talks.
Okay, you've seen my talk,right?
Yes, so you saw my talk of mybrain, which I still actually
really like that one anyway.
So look, as we come to the endof our conversation, which has
(46:45):
been fascinating.
I've really enjoyed it.
What's next for you in terms ofupcoming projects?
Have you got anything on thehorizon or something you're
doing right now?
That's particularly interesting.
Speaker 1 (46:55):
I mean, one of the things that I'm really trying to
get up and running is that Iguess that national assessment
of the status of platypuses.
You know when we, when welooked at the Victorian data a
few years ago, victoria wasabout the only spot that had
enough data to look at this inany sort of rigor.
I think over the last sort offive or six years we've now got
(47:15):
a heap of mostly eDNA based datathroughout sort of New South
Wales and up into at leastsouthern Queensland.
Most of the rest of Queenslandis a bit of a black hole at this
stage, but I think we've nowgot enough contemporary data.
The historical data is always achallenge, but I think we're
never going to get morehistorical data.
So, you know, I think we've gota really good current baseline,
(47:39):
so I'd love to be able to do anational assessment in that way.
I guess mostly my role thesedays outside of Platypus is
about facilitating uptake of howpeople can use eDNA for their
purposes.
So working with waterwaymanagements and government
agencies and even sort ofprivate industries around.
(48:00):
You know, what is it that theywant to understand that maybe
they haven't been able topreviously, and can we sort of
use these new tools to help givethem that data so that they can
make better decisions.
So and often we might useplatypus as that flagship.
You know, often if we'reimproving things improving
habitat for platypuses whatwe're really doing is improving
(48:20):
things for bugs, but peoplearen't as passionate and excited
about that.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
No, I always feel sorry for those people who get
excited about bugs, but I guess,because mum did Waterwatch for
so long, I can tell thedifference between a damselfly
and a caddisfly.
You know, I can get into thatand I actually find it's really
good pairing up the water watchtalk with the platypus talk.
So Jed, who's a water watchcoordinator with us here he also
(48:46):
works for us on Rivers ofCarbon Projects.
He did a fantastic communityevent where he was able to talk
about you know how much theplatypus eat and that this is
the sort of things they'reeating, and then to go and look
at what was in the water, and soI love that connection and I
think when you can use somethinglike platypus, which is just
such an amazing mammal, it'sgreat because you've captured
(49:07):
the imagination and from thatpoint you can then actually
explain what else is going on.
So thank you so much for allthe work you're doing.
It's actually reallyappreciated by people like us
who are really trying to connectwith people.
Look, before we head off, wehave three questions that we ask
everybody at the end of everyepisode, and the first one is do
you have a favourite river orwater body?
Speaker 1 (49:29):
that you like to go to.
Wow, that's a tough one.
So I live out in East Gippslandthese days and there's a number
of beautiful waterways out here.
There are, I think, maybe theWingin River, which is one of
the first ones that I sort ofcame out and camped and did some
kayaking along.
That still holds a bit of aspecial place, so I'll go with
(49:53):
that one, I think.
Speaker 2 (49:54):
Go with that one.
And where is it that you feelmost connected to country and to
nature generally?
Speaker 1 (50:02):
it that do you feel most connected to country and to
nature generally?
Well, now that I've moved outof the city probably at my house
I struggle to leave it to goback into Melbourne.
These days I don't know that Ihave a.
I love the diversity ofAustralia.
I've spent time out in themiddle of Australia, in the
desert areas, you know.
I've been up in tropicalregions and in temperate forests
.
I just like getting out thereand exploring, whether it's for
(50:24):
work purposes or you know me andmy partner just like going
camping and hiking and probablybird watching mostly these days.
So there's just something aboutand I think there's some really
good science behind it aboutthe calming effect that nature
has on people.
So yeah, I'm not sure I canfocus on one particular place.
(50:45):
It's more just being out andenjoying what we have.
Speaker 2 (50:48):
Yeah, and look, I think you're right.
Mark and I were talking aboutthe desert and I just love that
red dirt.
There's just something aboutthat red dirt.
Speaker 1 (50:57):
I can go out to my car and still find it People
talk about how barren ourdeserts are, but when you work
out there you realise that Imean most of it's nocturnal and
they're all sort of smallcritters that you don't usually
see.
But it's an amazing place andit's something that probably a
lot of people don't get toexperience.
Speaker 2 (51:16):
I think you're absolutely right.
So my final question and I'msure that listeners can hear the
passion in your voice and howyou light up when you're talking
about platypuses and platypupsand all those things what's
driving you to do what you do?
What is it that keeps you doingwhat you do in this area?
Speaker 1 (51:35):
It's about lessening our impact is essentially the
top of the list for everythingthat we do.
I mean I get quite horrifiedabout, I guess, how not
individuals, it's more as asociety we tend to, whether it's
the waste that we produce, orpollution, or just, you know,
(51:56):
land clearing.
I desperately want to changethat land clearing.
I desperately want to changethat, Whether it's for platypus,
or whether it's for the nakedmole rat or you know, a mayfly
larvae, whatever it is.
I mean it's we have to, andit's not just a cute fuzzy thing
.
I mean we have to do it for ourown survival.
Yeah, that's what gets me outof bed, essentially.
Speaker 2 (52:19):
Well, I'm so pleased that you get out of bed and that
you work on this.
It's wonderful.
It's one of the reasons I lovethis industry so much, because
everyone I speak to is driven bythat need to make a difference
or to make it better or to helpanother species, in many cases,
or a waterway.
So thank you so much for theconversation today.
We will definitely put somelinks with the show notes to
(52:43):
EnviroDNA so people can go andfind out more as well, of course
, some links to some of therecommended places that you can
find out more about platypus.
So thank you very, very much,josh.
I hope you have a wonderfulafternoon.
Speaker 1 (52:55):
Thank you very much.
Pleasure, it's a pleasure,thank you.
Speaker 2 (53:03):
You can subscribe to Take Me to the River wherever
you get your podcasts.
Visit arrcau forward slashpodcast to learn more.
That's arrcau forward slashpodcast.
We acknowledge and respectAboriginal and Torres Strait
Islander peoples as thetraditional and continuing
(53:24):
custodians of the country andthe rivers on which we live,
learn, love and play.
We respect and learn fromelders, past, present and
emerging, valuing theirknowledge, insights, cultures
and connections to the waterwayswe all love and care for.
It's about lessening our impact is essentially the
top of the list.
For everything that we do.
I mean I get quite horrifiedabout, I guess, how not
individuals, it's more as asociety we tend to, whether it's
the waste that we produce orpollution, or just, you know,
(00:21):
land clearing.
I desperately want to changethat.
Whether it's for platypus, orwhether it's for the naked mole,
rat or you know a mayfly larvae, whatever it is, I mean it's we
have to, and it's not just acute fuzzy thing.
I mean we have to do it for ourown survival.
Yeah, that's what gets me outof bed, essentially.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Hello and welcome to Take Me to the River, sharing
stories and inspiring hope withextraordinary people who care
for our rivers.
I'm your host, dr Shu-AnneLovett.
Today I'm talking to JoshGriffiths, senior Programme
Manager and Ecologist atEnviroDNA.
Josh is a leading expert onplatypus, one of Australia's
most iconic and unique species,and he's spent over 15 years
(01:07):
researching and protecting thisincredible creature.
He's conducted over 10,000hours of fieldwork across
Victoria, queensland andTasmania, and his work has been
pivotal in ensuring theprotection of platypus
populations, including achievingthe listing of the platypus as
a vulnerable species in Victoria.
As human impacts, includingclimate variability, take a toll
(01:29):
on our rivers and waterways,platypus populations are under
increasing pressure, especiallyduring extreme events like
droughts, flooding and bushfires.
These events have pushed somepopulations to the brink and,
while recovery efforts areunderway, there is still much
work to be done.
Josh shares some insights fromextensive monitoring programs
(01:49):
that track population changesand recovery efforts, giving us
a comprehensive view of theplatypus' future in Australia's
rivers and what work is beingdone to conserve these unique
creatures.
We also talk aboutenvironmental DNA, or eDNA.
This is a tool that allowsscientists to assess river
health and biodiversity bydetecting traces of genetic
(02:10):
material left behind by variousspecies in the water.
It's cost-effective,non-invasive and highly
sensitive, and it's changing thegame for biodiversity research.
(02:30):
Well hi, josh, and welcome toour conversation today.
I am super excited to befinally interviewing you,
because we've been trying quitea few times.
Because I know that you loveplatypus and there are a lot of
people out there who want toknow more about platypus, can
you tell us a bit more aboutyourself and your interest in
platypus and how that developed?
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Sure Well, so I'm a wildlife ecologist but my
specialty for the last 17 yearshas been sort of researching
platypus and monitoringpopulations.
So very quickly I learned thatthere weren't many people that
worked with platypuses for goodreasons, I've discovered, and so
fairly rapidly you become, ininverted commas, an expert in
(03:10):
the field.
So I feel very privileged to beable to have worked with these
critters for so long, becausethey are just such amazing
animals, but also the publicinterest in them is just amazing
.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
They are incredible animals.
I watched a video that was shot, I think, in Hobart in one of
the little streams there, of aguy who went out and sort of
befriended a platypus, got toknow the platypus and
coincidentally then did thisfantastic documentary really on
its movements up and down thesystem and navigating concrete
and all these sorts of things.
But they are incredible, likethey're actually really weird
(03:44):
looking animals as well, aren'tthey?
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Absolutely.
I mean, there's countless memesabout them.
They've got to be the mostunusual mammal in the world at
least I think, and I guessthat's part of their attraction.
There's sort of this mysteryattached to them.
But they're also justincredibly adaptable little
creatures.
You mentioned that stream inHobart, which is where I started
my platypus research inTasmania actually.
(04:08):
You know that's a very highlyurbanised modified stream and
these animals can cope with thatquite well.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Yeah, I think that that has led a little bit to
misunderstanding, though, thatthese creatures are fine because
they're highly adaptable.
And isn't it great that we'reseeing them in our cities?
They're actually there becausetheir own habitat is being sort
of basically diminished.
Would that be fair to say?
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Absolutely.
I mean, the reason I think thatmost people think that they're
okay is that we just haven't hadany good information on them
previously, and up until maybe10 years ago, even people were
still kind of thinkingeverything's okay.
And I guess it was probablyreally the millennium drought
and you know, some of themonitoring that we were doing in
(04:53):
Melbourne and some other groupswere doing as well that, I
guess, highlighted that maybeeverything's not so rosy with
platypuses.
But yes, we do find them in themiddle of cities, we find them
in sort of agricultural areas,we find them in lovely, you know
, forested mountain streams aswell.
They are very adaptable, butyou know, obviously they're
dependent on aquatic ecosystemsand there's a lot of things that
(05:15):
threaten those ecosystems and Iguess we're really just
starting to uncover what thoseimpacts are having on platypuses
.
Now One of the challenges isthat we simply don't know what
numbers used to be like, and itmakes my job really difficult
when you're trying to quantifydeclines is that you've got no
historical data to compare with.
(05:35):
So really, all we've got to sayis we know that platypus used
to be here 20 years ago, 50years ago.
They're still there now, butthey're most likely in much
lower abundance.
And we see from the very fewstudies that have long-term data
and yes, they might be in someof the more modified
environments, like a lot of thework that we do in Melbourne
(05:56):
that we've seen these massivedeclines and even localised
extinctions in some areas.
Largely that was over themillennium drought, which not
surprisingly droughts are badfor aquatic species and
thankfully we are seeingpopulations bounce back from
that now.
But during those declines youdo see them disappear from some
areas and once they havedisappeared they're very rarely
(06:20):
going back into those waterwaysagain.
So while we see recovery, yeah,it's almost death by a thousand
cuts, because I mentioned weare seeing recovery of
populations, but the areas thatthey've disappeared from they're
not recolonising for variousreasons.
Usually the habitat's just notsuitable.
So while we see the populationbounce back in some areas
(06:42):
they've disappeared permanentlyfrom others and so we get that
sort of gradual erosion of theirdistribution.
See the population bounce backin some areas, they've
disappeared permanently fromothers and so we get that sort
of gradual erosion of theirdistribution which in isolation
doesn't look like much but overtime it accumulates.
And yeah, tom Grant, who's theplatypus guru, I would say coins
at death by a thousand cuts,and that's exactly what we're
seeing.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
So you're talking about platypus numbers
decreasing in terms of abundance?
Is that having a knock-oneffect with genetic diversity
within the species?
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Yeah, I mean it's one of the things that we don't
have a great handle on becauseno one's looking at it a great
deal.
We've certainly.
Every time we catch a platypuswe take a genetic sample.
We recently completed somepopulation genetic analysis and
they're reasonably robust.
I mean platypus are a little bitresilient to those, I guess,
genetic declines because theyare quite long-lived.
(07:32):
They do seem to have quitenaturally diverse genetics, but
we're certainly seeing some ofthose known isolated populations
within Melbourne and also onein western Victoria where we're
starting to see a decline inthat genetic diversity.
The concern is that becausethey are such long-lived
creatures that we're only juststarting to see the tip of the
(07:55):
iceberg and it could spiral downquite quickly.
So certainly something thatneeds to be considered.
I guess in the longer term, themore immediate concerns are
really about making sure theirhabitat's available and the
populations are going to survive.
But certainly we're talking tosome of these waterway managers
around potential for genetictranslocations in the future,
(08:16):
which has never been done forplatypuses before anyway, and
how that might come about, whatsort of demographics would be
required and things like that.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
So if you're a little platypus, do you move a lot or
do you have sort of a home rangeand that's your patch.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
A bit of both, to be honest.
They're incredibly mobilecreatures.
So even when they've got theirestablished home ranges, they're
you know a female will roamover about one to two or three
kilometres.
Adult males can have homeranges up to six, seven
kilometres long.
So they are very mobilecreatures and it's probably to
(08:54):
do with a lot of their foodsupply and having enough
reliable food across that rangeto support them.
But we've had records ofjuvenile males in particular
dispersing sort of 50, 60kilometres from where they were
caught as juveniles to where wesee them again as adults.
Now we don't record those verywell because they just disappear
(09:15):
out of areas that you knowwe're trapping and we never see
them again.
But yeah, we do see these longdistance dispersals, provided
that habitat is available andall connected for them to move.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
And do the male and females only come together to
mate, or do they co-parent, soto speak?
Speaker 1 (09:33):
No, they're very solitary critters.
So, yeah, so males and femaleswill essentially come together
for a day or a couple of days,go through their courtship
routine and then mate, and thenbasically the male is done,
he'll go find another mate if hecan mate, and then basically
the male is done, he'll go findanother mate if he can.
The female will then hopefullygo into her burrow and raise her
young for a few months, buteven when those young emerge
(09:53):
from the burrow they don't hangout with mum for very long.
They seem to hang out togetherfor a couple of weeks and then
essentially they're independentagain.
So you don't see family groups,you don't see sort of long-term
pairs.
They're a very solitary andindependent little critter.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Now there's great debate over the right
terminology to use for thebabies.
I'm sure I've heard puggle andI'm not sure that's right.
You better let our listenersknow what's the official term.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Well, the problem is there is no official term and I
think it's probably because fora very long time no one ever saw
baby platypuses Like by thetime they come out of their
burrow they are sort of twothirds grown, so we don't see
little baby platypuses at all inthe wild.
Puggle is actually a term for ababy echidna.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
There you go.
That's completely wrong.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Well, it's not that far off, because they are the
platypus's closest relative andwhen they're young it's actually
incredibly difficult to tellthe difference between a
platypus and an echidna untilthey're about sort of four or
five weeks old and the echidnagets his long nose and so on.
So that term has sort of beenadopted for baby platypuses in
recent years, but it's notreally an official term.
I think it's sort of beenadopted for baby platypuses in
recent years, but it's notreally an official term.
(11:06):
I think it's sort of got thepublic vote.
I've been pushing for platypupsbut it's not really getting any
traction.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
I quite like platypups.
I don't know what it is aboutPuggle.
I think it's because it's closeto Snuggle and you know when
they're born they look allvelvety.
When I've looked at the youknow the video footage of
Burrows they look super cute.
Platterpup's actually not bad.
That's pretty good.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
And Puggles is such a cute name.
It's the kind of thing that Idon't know.
Maybe a child might name theirtoy or something like that.
So I see why it's been adoptedand and you know, personally I
don't really mind if people callbaby platypuses puggles, that's
fine, but yeah, there isactually no official term as of
yet, and I also know that youuse the word platypuses.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
I have heard platypi, so tell me the right way to go
there, josh, as an expert onplatypuses.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
This is actually out of all my research, all the
things that we learn aboutplatypuses, all the actually out
of all my research, all thethings that we learn about
platypuses all the interestingfeatures.
This is by far the most commonquestion.
I get People like platypi.
Platypi is definitely incorrect, the reason being that the root
of platypus is actually Greek,so the correct term is actually
(12:22):
platypodes.
Wow, but the anglicised versionof that is platypuses.
I quite like platypodes.
I've spoken to a number ofpeople recently that really like
it.
I thought I would never get itadopted.
But yeah, technically, or itmight be platypodes Platypodes,
I'm not quite sure the correctpronunciation, but yeah, that's
(12:46):
the correct term and it would bethe same for octopodes as well.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
It would.
It would indeed.
Oh, that's fascinating.
My late father-in-law is aGreek specialist so he's not
around.
I can't go and ask him, butthat's fascinating.
Okay, so we could try a wholenew movement of platypodes to
actually get the name changed.
It's kind of funny calling itplatypuses and then we have
platypups.
Like that just seems weird.
We've got cats and dogs and allsorts of things getting mixed
(13:14):
up there.
Now that leads me to talkingabout predators.
Are feral cats a problem, feraldogs a problem?
With platypuses, what's theirmain sort of prey really?
Or what do they prey for?
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Well, they don't really have any natural
predators.
Possibly up in northernQueensland they might get taken
by the odd crocodile or two, butreally in most of our waterways
across their range they are theapex predator.
In these waterways there'salmost certainly predators of
their eggs and maybe young.
I've seen videos of snakes andrakali heading towards their
(13:51):
burrows.
In fact I saw an amazing videoof a adult female platypus
attacking and drowning a rakalias it was trying to get into its
burrow, which I've never seenbefore.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Oh, wow that would be amazing.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
So you know good on mama platypus, but yeah, as
adults they don't really haveany predators.
We occasionally get records ofthings like eagles carrying a
dead platypus off, but it'salmost certainly scavenged that
animal.
Now they do have things likedogs and foxes in particular.
No evidence of cats being anissue.
(14:24):
They're probably a little bittoo large for cats, but
certainly dogs and foxes.
But even then, like if they'vegot healthy habitat and they've
got nice deep water.
You know dogs and foxes aren'tpredating them in the water.
It's only when they have toleave their nice creeks and
travel across land, eitherbecause the creek dries up or
we've stuck a big dam in the wayor we've put a culvert under a
(14:48):
road that's been poorly designedand they have to get out and
move around it.
Once they're on land they areincredibly vulnerable to
predation and that tends to bewhere we see it happening.
When I was in Tassie it wasquite common to hear about.
You know, someone's dog hadtaken a platypus, because they
do seem to spend a bit more timeon land in Tasmania.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Is that because it's wetter, so that it's nice?
Well, and that's a grossgeneralisation.
But why should it be differentin Tasmania to elsewhere?
Speaker 1 (15:19):
There's probably a couple of reasons, and I'm very
much guessing here.
Temperature is probably goingto be one of them.
When they leave the water, ifit's warm weather, they can very
easily overheat and die thatway.
Also, there's so many waterwaysin Tasmania that the distance
between them isn't very far.
So we know that historically,overland dispersal was quite
(15:41):
important for them to coloniseand spread their genetics
between catchments.
But now, because we're takingwater out of our waterways,
we're modifying the land aroundthem.
It's much harder for them tomove between creeks, even if
they're quite close.
So a lot of that overlanddispersal just doesn't seem to
occur anymore.
And when it does, we then putpredators in their way as well
(16:03):
and cars and things like that.
So we're actually seeing thatthe genetics within catchments
are sort of becoming more andmore differentiated from their
neighbouring ones, because thatoverland dispersal just isn't
really happening anymore.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Yeah, I was wondering that we're doing a lot of work
on Macquarie perch, which isreally an animal, a fish in
danger, and Mark Linterman's ascientist.
We actually interviewed himjust a couple of days ago.
He's starting an Uber servicefor Macquarie perch on the upper
Murrumbidgee, which is histranslocation program, and we
said he should call it Tinderand he said no, it's Finder, of
(16:40):
course, because he's movingthese fish up and down.
Now, anyone listening, I'mencouraging you do not go and
pick platypus up and move themaround at all.
We're not at that point yet.
In terms of those trends thatyou've talked about with
platypus populations, what, whatis it that is is most
concerning.
Is it just abundance or is itlocation?
(17:03):
What is it that we're trying todo to address that, now that
we've got a bit more informationthat, yes, indeed, the numbers
are dropping?
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Yeah, well, I mean, I guess the main thing is getting
that evidence to say, hey look,there is a problem, and then
trying to identify what theproblems are.
And, as you would know, it'snever going to be a simple,
straightforward answer.
But more and more we're seeingthat a lot of the issues are
around flow regimes andgenerally a reduction in water
(17:33):
and that might be, let's say,naturally from drought, but of
course that's being exacerbatedthrough climate change and
that's getting worse.
We're seeing less rainfall ingeneral in sort of southeastern
Australia, and that's predictedto get worse again.
The patterns of rainfall arechanging.
So you know, particularly herein Victoria, we've had a couple
(17:55):
of really dry winters over thelast probably five years and
then wet summers.
So you know, the nature of ourwaterways are changing and that
sort of affects everything from,you know, the algae up to
platypuses.
But more than anything it'spurely a reduction in flows,
which means less habitat, lessfood abundance, less
(18:18):
connectivity between waterways.
That's primarily driving thesesort of large population trends.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
So when you talk about flow, what does that
actually mean?
Because some of our listenersmight not understand, like when
you say, well, it's flowing, sowhat's the issue?
What's a flow regime?
Speaker 1 (18:34):
So we know that the amount of water that goes down
our waterways changes throughthe year.
We get more rainfall in winter,so flows tend to increase.
We get increases, you know,during, so flows tend to
increase.
We get increases, you know,during, between days as well.
So the variation in flowfollows kind of natural patterns
and our fauna, everything thatlives in that waterway, is
(18:54):
adapted to these patterns andonce we start changing them it
changes how well some of thosefauna can survive, and so it
might be things like that.
The bug community that we seechanges from something that
enjoys kind of this nicevariable flow to when we start
reducing that flow to more sortof stagnant water.
(19:14):
It changes the type of bugsthat live there.
Of course those are the type ofbugs that live there.
Of course those are the kind ofthings that platypus and fish
and other organisms eat, and soit changes their food resources,
which might make it lesssuitable or less abundant for
them.
But then of course the amountof water in a river influences
the amount of habitat that'savailable.
So you think about the totalamount of wetted area along
(19:37):
waterways.
If we start shrinking those, weget 30% less habitat, so that
means it can support 30% lessbugs and 30% less platypuses.
So, you know, all of thesethings contribute to the entire
ecosystem of our waterways andyou know, platypuses are quite
adaptable, but they do needwater to live in, they do need
(19:59):
lots of bugs to eat, and so itcreates this cascade effect of,
once we start, you know,reducing the amount of bugs,
there's less food for platypusesand fish, and that means they
might not reproduce for a yearor so, on and so on.
So the platypus also live quitehappily in stagnant water,
which is something that peopledon't tend to think of.
They think that platypus onlylive in flowing water.
(20:19):
They do survive in farm dams,in lakes and reservoirs and
things as well, but they do needthat food supply.
They need somewhere to burrowand they need water to be able
to swim and forage in.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
So I'm sure I heard some amazing fact about how much
they need to eat.
What's the body weight thatthey need to eat each day of the
bugs that you're talking about?
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Yeah, and this is generally measured in captivity.
So you know there's going to bea little bit of variability
around that, but typicallybetween about a quarter and a
third of their body weight perday.
So if you think about, even say, a little female platypus, that
might only be a kilo.
She needs, you know, 300 gramsof tiny little bugs every day.
(21:02):
Now, during breeding season, ifthat same female is raising
young and having to lactate andraise those young, they're
completely dependent on her forabout three months so they only
survive on her milk.
They're not foraging forthemselves at all at this stage.
She will increase her foodintake to up to her body weight
per day.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Wow, that's a lot of beetling around to find fish.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
They might get lucky and find a nice juicy yabby
which will keep them going for awhile, but generally it's these
tiny little bugs, little snails, worms and so on.
So it's a lot of food, meansthey've got to do a lot of
foraging and they can be activefor 12, 14 hours a day to find
that amount of food.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
That's a lot of work.
That sounds very, very busy forthe mum.
Does she just get a break whenthey it's probably like look,
you're on your own now, I'mkicking you out?
Maybe that's why they don'tcontinue to look after them
after the three months.
Maybe that's right, yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
And usually by the time they get to that stage,
poor mum is.
So you know she's lost all herbody weight.
She's looking in pretty poorcondition and it's probably why
she actually doesn't very oftenreproduce on consecutive years.
If she's raised young one year,she's so drained and so poor
condition that she goes like I'mgoing to have a break now.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
I'll reproduce again in two years time.
Oh, I didn't realise that.
That's incredible.
So her body will basically justnot put her into, I suppose,
oestrus, or whatever it might becalled.
I don't know what it's calledfor platypus.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Yeah, I mean, we know that happens in other mammals.
We assume that that's sort of asimilar case for platypuses as
well.
If she doesn't have enough bodyfat, then yeah, she won't go
into oestrus.
But yeah, typically it's onlyabout a third of any females in
any population that are breedingduring any one season.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Now I know that really concerningly, but all
credit to you.
You've managed to work to getthe platypus listed as
vulnerable in Victoria.
What does vulnerable mean andwhat do we need people to do in
order to stop that platypus frombeing on that vulnerable list?
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Yeah, I mean essentially by getting platypus
onto any of these threatenedspecies list.
It means they then get greaterlegal protection, so there's a
lot of benefits to that.
It also means they get a lotmore sort of monetary investment
.
Once species are listed asthreatened or vulnerable, you
know governments will contributemoney towards either habitat
(23:25):
protection or more research, sothere's a lot of flow-on
benefits for it.
Vulnerable is, I guess, astatus along the continuum of
things are doing fine to they'recompletely extinct.
So vulnerable is at the lowerend of that sort of threatened
listing level.
It means that populations aredeclining.
There's been around a 30%decline over three generations.
(23:50):
Victoria is really the only spotthat we've got any sort of data
that can tell us that, and eventhen it's quite localised.
So the state level listingsrequire a bit less rigour in the
data.
There's a bit more sort ofemphasis on extrapolating that
data and expert opinion, whereasto do that at the federal level
we really need to have harddata to back up our assumptions
(24:13):
a bit more, and we simply don'thave that data at a national
level, or we haven't.
I think we probably got a fairbit of information now that we
could put together a good caseagain.
But yeah, I mean it's sayingthat there's certainly concerns
around the population we knowit's declining.
There's concerns around thethreats that they face and the
fact that they're likely to getworse in future.
(24:34):
And, yeah, we think that itprobably should get looked at in
a bit more detail at thenational level as well.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
So if you sort of live in an urban area or even a
regional area and you know thatthere's platypus in the local
creek or waterway, what sort ofthings can you do to actually
help that animal to survive andhopefully thrive?
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Yeah, and it's something that we get asked a
lot, particularly when I dotalks to community groups.
People always want to know whatthey can do, and I mean a lot
of.
The threats that they face arevery large scale and difficult
for individuals to impact, whichmakes them feel a little bit
helpless.
But the reality is that thethreats come from incremental
(25:14):
increases in things like lack ofwater.
So every time that we can savea bit of water whether it's a
shorter shower or not, washingthe car, whatever it might be
you know water conservation,that water comes from platypus
habitat a lot of the time.
So if we can use less water ineverything that we do, then
there's potential for more waterto get returned for the
environment.
Certainly, you know, if peoplehave property, they've got
(25:37):
creeks on their waterway.
There's things that can be donein terms of improving habitat.
So fencing out stock,protecting the banks that are
critical for platypus to burrowon, native revegetation,
removing willows all these kindof things help improve habitat.
And then even those more directthings like being aware of your
dogs around waterways whenyou're walking them, so keeping
(25:59):
them on a leash, particularlyaround dawn and dusk and
particularly when you get thosejuveniles emerging from burrows
because, like most animals,juvenile platypuses are a bit
naive and dumb, so they geteasily taken by dogs Picking up
litter, being aware of yourfishing practices and retrieving
your snagged lines, things likethat.
(26:20):
So all of these things are justlittle bits and pieces that
individuals can do thatcollectively can make a
significant impact.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
I love that because you've just outlined such a
range, and it is something aboutus humans we want to act.
Us humans, we want to act, andso when someone like you
provides us with a whole list ofways that we can do things,
that gives us confidence to act,which is very much what we try
and do at the River RestorationCentre, which is to say, all
rivers can benefit from yourinterest, from your involvement,
(26:50):
from the tiniest thing to areally huge thing.
So thank you very much.
You explained that reallyreally well.
One other thing that I haveheard about is opera house nets.
What was the issue with operahouse nets?
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Yeah.
So for those that don't know,opera house nets are these
enclosed mesh nets that whenthey're folded out, they look a
bit like the opera house, wherethey got their name from.
They're used to catch yabbiesand crayfish in waterways and
they get thrown into these deepwater.
They're fully submerged, theyget baited with a bit of meat
(27:22):
and the crayfish go in there andthey're captured.
The problem is that platypuseat crayfish, and so as soon as
a small yabby or a crayfish goesinto one of these nets, it
becomes a baited trap for aplatypus, and so platypus can
get through these openings, butbecause they're an enclosed net,
they then can't escape and, asa mammal, platypus can hold
their breath for about well,maybe a little bit longer than
you or me, but typically aplatypus will drown within about
(27:42):
two to three minutes.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Wow, I had no idea, it was so quick.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Yep, I think they can hold their breath up to about
10 minutes.
If they do this cool thing.
When they're evading predators,they'll wedge themselves under
a log or something, which meansthey're not using any oxygen,
they're not swimming, but whenthey're in a net and they're
struggling to free themselves,yep, they'll drown within a
couple of minutes, and so wewere getting reports of maybe
five or 10 platypuses a year inVictoria that were being drowned
(28:09):
by these nets.
That's probably a very smallpercentage of the actual problem
, because we mostly would nothear about this, and so there'd
been a number of attempts overthe years to have these things
banned for just this reason, andthankfully, a few years ago,
myself and a range of otherorganisations sort of banded
together to have another crackat it, and we managed to get
(28:30):
them completely banned inVictoria.
We got them pulled from shelvesfrom most of the retailers
voluntarily, which was great.
The ban I think it wasimplemented in 2019, and we have
not had a single reporteddrowning of platypuses since
then.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Oh, that's amazing.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
And the important thing is, it's not about
stopping people from catchingtheir crayfish, catching their
yabbies.
It was about implementing adifferent type of net that is
just as effective but is safefor wildlife.
So it wasn't removing anactivity for recreational
fishers if that's what they wantto do, but it's about
protecting wildlife while stillbeing able to do your activities
(29:07):
.
So that was a great win.
It was probably one of thethings that stands out for me
over my almost 20 years just anunnecessary threat that they
were facing, and not so much thefact that it was, I guess,
causing declines in populations,but it's an animal ethics issue
, like the thought of one ofthese animals drowning in one of
these nets was just horriblefor everyone.
(29:29):
So I'm so grateful for thegroup of people that gave up
their time and efforts to makethat happen, and we're now
seeing that flow on to otherstates as well, which has been
great.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
I was about to ask is that happening elsewhere?
And I think one of the thingsI've noticed with platypus I
have a number of friends to doplatypus watch.
They'll go and do platypussurveys.
There's a lot of publicinterest and actually ability to
get involved in caring forplatypus, whether it's going out
doing the sightings, working onhabitat.
Have you seen that grow overthe last few years or has it
(30:01):
stayed pretty much the same inyour area?
Speaker 1 (30:03):
No, definitely growing, and I guess it's one of
the things that we tend to do alot of that sort of community
engagement and advocacy typethings, whether it's just
talking to groups about ourtrapping results, which they're
often interested in.
More recently we've had, youknow, community groups doing
their own rigorous monitoringusing environmental DNA which
(30:24):
people can go out and dothemselves.
So you know, that's kind ofthat next level of getting
people actively involved in someof the research.
Certainly, as you mentionedbefore, you know people wanting
to do something to make a change.
And one of the things that I dosee, particularly working in an
urban space, a lot we see issuesaround litter in our waterways
and platypus are really good atgetting entangled in anything
(30:45):
that's an enclosed loop.
And when I sort of mentioned topeople, I try to not show the
photos anymore, but I mentionedto people some of the horrific
things I see from something likea rubber band or a hair tie,
and then I'll get emails fromprimary school students the next
week saying, oh, we picked upseven hair ties on the way to
school this morning.
It's just amazing.
(31:06):
People really resonate withsome of those issues and then
actively go out and do somethingabout it.
So yeah, I guess giving peoplea call to action is always what
we strive for.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Yeah, I love those stories and I want to come to
environmental DNA, but before wedo that, what's the most
surprising or funny experienceyou've had relating to platypus?
Because they're an amazinglooking creature with that tail
and then the feet and, like thewhole thing, they look like
they're an accumulation of lotsof different animals.
But, yeah, what's the mostfunny or surprising thing you've
(31:39):
had happen?
Speaker 1 (31:40):
oh gosh, you put me on the spot there um I mean I
will always remember the, thefirst platypus I ever caught.
That's just a bit of a personalmilestone.
I actually the one that sticksout to me.
I I got six platypus in asingle net one night.
So platypus I mentioned.
Single net one night.
So platypus I mentioned they'requite solitary creatures.
Before we often do entire nightsurveys and you know, catch a
(32:02):
single animal, that's it.
Yeah, to get six in a singlenet was both a bit concerning
but also amazing, and it was Ialmost had to like juggle them
as I'm pulling them out andgetting them into bags.
Yeah, so that was quite amazing, considering I, you know I can
go for a week of trapping andnot catch six.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
In some places Were they related.
Do you think had they just comeout of a burrow together or
were they, you know, a whole mix.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Yeah, I'm not quite sure what drove it.
It was kind of on the edge ofthe Yarra River, I think.
Maybe there was a bit of flowin the creek that I was in and
flow tends to trigger a bit ofexploration by platypuses.
So I think they all sort ofcame out the river and went
straight into our net.
Yeah, I mean, we check the netsevery couple of hours so that
they're not stuck there for verylong.
(32:50):
So for that to happen in such ashort time period was quite
amazing.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Potentially some of the males chasing some of the
females as well.
It was that time of the year.
Maybe it was date night, whoknows?
Speaker 1 (33:01):
It could have been.
Yes, it was platypus tinder.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Yeah, that's right, exactly.
Well, tinder, or oh, what dothey have?
They have webbed, anyway.
We could go down a wholetangent there.
So when you're surveying them,just to let people know, of
course these nets are for surveypurposes only, it's not as a
sport when you bring them in andyou talk about genetic material
, is that a blood sample?
I know for fish it's a fin clip.
What is it that you're going tokeep, I guess, and then you can
(33:27):
refer back to later?
Basically, can't you that youcan let the animal go and you've
still got a whole lot of detailabout that animal?
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Yeah, you're right, and yes, I should clarify.
These surveys are structured.
They're designed forunderstanding how populations
are going, both numbers anddemographics and so forth.
But yeah, so every time wecatch a platypus they all get a
little microchip so we canidentify them again.
We take a number ofmeasurements check their health,
as I mentioned before.
They do get tangled in litter abit, so I check them over to
(33:55):
make sure that they're clear oflitter.
And then we take a little pieceof their webbing from their
back foot, so the webbing issort of like a keratinised skin.
So we take about a onemillimetre by one millimetre
little snip from that which goesinto some ethanol and then on a
shelf for analysis later on.
And so when we do that analysis,we can look at things like
(34:16):
genetic diversity of thepopulation as a whole to see how
healthy that population is.
We can estimate things likeeffective population size, which
is a really important metricfor wildlife populations.
It's the number of animals thatare actually reproducing and
contributing to futuregenerations.
We can look at how relatedindividuals are between each
other.
We can track their parents andso on.
(34:38):
So yeah, there's a lot ofinformation that we can get from
a tiny little bit of DNA fromthem and then that whole process
.
They get back in the waterwithin about 15 minutes.
They can go back on and livetheir platypus lives for the
rest of the night.
So it's about sort ofminimising stress and
disturbance to the animals asmuch as possible.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Now Mark Lintermans, who I just mentioned earlier.
He got a platypus when he wasactually out surveying for
Macquarie perch and he actuallygot spurred.
Have you ever been spurred?
Speaker 1 (35:07):
He was really, really sick, yeah, oh wow, I'd love to
chat to him about it.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
No, I haven't been spurred.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
I think that tends to be what happens.
The people that do get spurred,it tends to be sort of members
of the public that might have, Idon't know, found a sick or
injured platypus, or maybehooked one while they're fishing
or something, and I feel likethey're often just not aware
that platypus are one of the fewvenomous mammals in the world.
And you know, as you do, youwould probably cradle the animal
underneath and you get a youknow half an inch spur buried
(35:40):
into your arm or hand.
So, um, yep, their venom ispretty nasty.
It's really only during thebreeding season that the males,
um, their venom production goesthrough the roof.
Their venom glands swell up andthey get a bit.
They get a bit gnarky, butusually, if if you're aware of
it and you sort of know how tohandle them correctly, it's
quite easy to actually avoid it,because they do have quite
(36:03):
short limbs and the spurs canonly really reach directly
underneath them.
So, bea, I have heard it'squite a horrible experience and
things like all our opiates,morphine and so on have no
effect on it.
It's a very painful experience.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
It is.
I'd really felt for him and, ofcourse, mark's been surveying
for like decades and never hadthis happen.
It was an accident, I think, inthe sense that he was actually
trying to free the animal who'dgot caught, and the animal did
go free, but, yeah, mark wassick for quite some time.
Yeah, yeah.
So there you go.
I'm happy to put you in touchwith him and he can tell you his
story.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
Maybe I better run him through the correct handling
procedures, just in case ithappens again.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
Yeah, well, there you go.
I'm sure you can see if he'sreceptive to that or not.
Okay, so one of the thingsyou've said is about platypus
being apex predators, but alsothat they rely on a whole lot of
bugs.
I want to now move to sort ofyour day-to-day job, which is
EnviroDNA.
Can you explain what EnviroDNAactually is?
Speaker 1 (37:07):
Sure, I mean, essentially it's another tool
that we can use to surveywildlife.
All organisms are leaving DNAbehind, whether it's a bug,
whether it's a platypus, whetherit's a bit of algae, whatever
it might be.
In aquatic systems, that DNAsort of disperses throughout the
water.
It flows downstream, and nowour genetic techniques, the
(37:36):
tools and the machines that weuse are now so sensitive and, I
guess, getting cheaper to usethat we can detect these tiny
traces of DNA.
So what we do with platypus isthat we've designed this genetic
probe that matches a segment ofthe platypus DNA that is unique
to that species.
So this probe will only bind toits matching DNA.
So it ignores everything elsethere and says this is my
(37:57):
matching, this is my platypusDNA binds to it and that lets
off a little fluorescent signalto say, hey, here I am and we
can measure that fluorescence.
That's actually what we'relooking at, and the amount of
fluorescence correlates with theamount of DNA and so we can
look at.
You know, how strong thatsignal is, and so forth.
But it's an amazing technique.
It's another tool that we'vegot in our sort of wildlife tool
(38:20):
belt and Amazing technique.
It's another tool that we'vegot in our sort of wildlife tool
belt and we can use it todetect platypus.
We can detect a lot of fishspecies.
Essentially, any species that'sleaving DNA behind we're able
to detect using this methodology.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
So do you sort of go and do a scoop and then you know
, pop it into a I don't know amachine and then it spits out
all the DNA that it's found, oris it more that you have a
specific thing that you'relooking for in that area?
Speaker 1 (38:50):
It depends on what we're trying to achieve.
So typically, if I'm looking forplatypus, I'm probably taking a
number of samples over a quitelarge area because they are very
widespread and dispersed, butwe will take an amount of water
directly out of the waterway.
We tend to filter it on site, sowe pass this water through a
very fine filter, which might beanything from sort of about one
(39:11):
to five microns.
So we're not having totransport water around the place
, we just have this filter thatcaptures all of our cells, all
of our DNA, and of course,that's DNA from a range of
different organisms it could bealgae, fungi, bacteria,
hopefully some platypus in thereand then it goes back to our
lab and we have a very good labteam that can then extract that
(39:32):
DNA, apply our platypus probeand tell us whether platypus DNA
is there or not.
So it's for something likeplatypus that are an incredibly
difficult species to study, verytime and labour intensive
process to try to capture them.
It's really revolutionised whatwe're able to do and the scale
(39:53):
that we're able to do things.
But essentially, yeah, we cando the same with a range of
different organisms.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
So you were saying that even citizen science is
getting in on the eDNA.
Is that sort of a morecontrolled just looking for one
thing?
How does that work?
Speaker 1 (40:08):
Yeah, and it was something we probably didn't
really think of when we startedgoing down this path.
But the water collectionprocess is incredibly simple.
It can be very simple.
So I've done it witheight-year-olds, I've done it
with 80-year-olds.
With some simple instructionsand some guidelines, people can
go out and collect their ownwater samples and then send them
(40:29):
back to our lab for theanalysis, and so it means that
we can design survey programswith some scientific rigour so
we can select the sites where wewant them to be, to answer what
our key questions are, andstill get the community involved
in collecting those samples andmaybe doing some habitat
assessments while we're outthere.
So what we're finding is itdoesn't just hit the sort of
(40:51):
citizen part of citizen science,but we can actually get some
really good, rigorous data outof it as well, which I think you
know.
Sometimes citizen scienceprograms are a bit, I guess, ad
hoc, which doesn't mean the datais no good.
But you know, ideally whenyou're doing these wildlife
surveys, you want some rigourand some good design behind them
(41:11):
.
So with this we're able to tickboth boxes and, as an example,
we actually did a statewidesurvey of platypuses throughout
Victoria a couple of years agoand it was I think it was about
90% done by citizen scientists,and during COVID as well, which
was just another layer ofcomplexity.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
Yeah, and they would have been doing it alone as well
If it was in COVID.
I do know about citizen sciencebecause my mum led Waterwatch
here in the ACT for many, manyyears and as a scientist herself
, she was really concerned aboutgetting rigor into that program
because sometimes people aregoing oh you know, that's just
Waterwatch.
But it's actually become a veryrigorous testing process, here
(41:49):
in the ACT at least, and I knowit's suffered from funding
fluctuations, as a lot of thesethings do in some of the other
states.
But they now produce every yearsomething called a CHIP, which
is a catchment health indicatorreport, and it goes through
every catchment in this areawith all of the water quality
details and you can see how eDNAcould provide yet another level
(42:09):
to say that link between.
So this is the quality of thewater and this is what we're
finding is in the water as aresult.
So what do you think theapplications for eDNA are going
to be?
I mean, it's a clearly an areathat's going to keep growing, I
would think yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
I mean I think the the value from I mean, look,
there's a range of things thatcan be done.
I think the highest value isdoing things at scale.
So, whether that's at acatchment or a statewide or a
national scale, that we simplycan't do with traditional
techniques.
So, and even with I mean, if Igot unlimited funding thrown at
(42:45):
me to do a platypus program,with trapping, there's areas
that I simply cannot set my netsI can't access, you can't put
the net safely, so you're muchless restricted.
When you just have to go andtake a water sample, it's much
easier to do.
So doing things at scale andthen being able to, I guess,
correlate that data with thingslike water quality or vegetation
(43:08):
type or land use, it means thatwe've now got the tools to
gather data, to do good analysis.
So that's sort of what I lookat it from a single species
perspective.
But what we're often doing with,say, citizen science projects,
is that maybe the community isinterested in platypus and we
can go and get data onplatypuses, but we can use those
(43:28):
same samples to scan for, say,all the fish in the area which
maybe the community is not asinterested in but the catchment
management authority really wantto know.
So you know, we can sort of useplatypus as that flagship to
then gather information on arange of other species and I
think going forward we'll startseeing people look at the whole
(43:50):
spectrum of biodiversity.
So we can look at bacteria andfungi and macroinvertebrates
right up to platypus.
So we're getting a much moreholistic view of what the
biodiversity is in an area.
It also gives you much greaterpower to detect change, because
you're looking at hundreds, ifnot thousands, of organisms at
each site as opposed to, youknow, maybe half a dozen fish.
(44:13):
So you know the statisticianswill love those kind of numbers,
but it's something that's, Iguess, just starting to evolve a
bit more.
People are very much stillfocused on those big vertebrate
species, but I think more andmore we'll start seeing people
look at this sort of moreholistic view.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
It sounds incredible to me.
I know for us we've beenlooking at eDNA to see if we can
identify if there's any redfin,in particular stretches of the
Murrumbidgee River, because theypose a big threat to the Macca
perch.
But, as you say, it's one tool,isn't it?
Because we've also backed thatup with, you know, going out and
actually fishing and seeing ifwe find any.
Unfortunately we didn't, whichis really, really good.
Speaker 1 (44:48):
And often that's how we're seeing it implemented,
because EDNA can be reallysensitive.
It's great at picking up thoseearly incursions.
So maybe an early warningsignal, but it might trigger
then maybe to go out and do somemore intensive electrofishing
or trapping.
But you can do it in a verytargeted way because you've
already got evidence to say, heylook, this species is there.
So the combination oftechniques is an incredibly
(45:11):
powerful way to go about it.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
And, in terms of analysing those samples, is it
likely that artificialintelligence is going to be able
to speed that process up, or isit a very human endeavour?
Speaker 1 (45:23):
Good question.
I mean, more and more theprocesses are becoming automated
.
So you know, we have a machinethat will essentially do most of
the DNA extraction side of it.
We have another machine thatwill do some of the liquid
handling.
Ai is probably very far out ofmy area of expertise.
I think where AI can probablyplay a bigger role is more at
the data analysis side of it.
(45:44):
So those sort of machinelearning models that you can
then train to.
I guess if you're constantlyfeeding data in, you can
constantly keep reanalyzing theinformation and spitting out
sort of live data.
But I don't know, it might putme out of a job.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
Look, I was really sceptical about good old chat
GPT, but I am finding itactually so useful in doing that
bit of that initial analysis ofsomething.
I can put a whole lot of gumpin, because we do so much
science communication Ishouldn't say gump so I can put
four pages of something in andsay what's this actually about,
and it's actually quite good atpulling out some of those key
(46:25):
messages.
You can also go down anotherabsolute rabbit hole where you
ask it to create an image ofsomething I've seen your talks.
You've seen my talks.
Okay, you've seen my talk,right?
Yes, so you saw my talk of mybrain, which I still actually
really like that one anyway.
So look, as we come to the endof our conversation, which has
(46:45):
been fascinating.
I've really enjoyed it.
What's next for you in terms ofupcoming projects?
Have you got anything on thehorizon or something you're
doing right now?
That's particularly interesting.
Speaker 1 (46:55):
I mean, one of the things that I'm really trying to
get up and running is that Iguess that national assessment
of the status of platypuses.
You know when we, when welooked at the Victorian data a
few years ago, victoria wasabout the only spot that had
enough data to look at this inany sort of rigor.
I think over the last sort offive or six years we've now got
(47:15):
a heap of mostly eDNA based datathroughout sort of New South
Wales and up into at leastsouthern Queensland.
Most of the rest of Queenslandis a bit of a black hole at this
stage, but I think we've nowgot enough contemporary data.
The historical data is always achallenge, but I think we're
never going to get morehistorical data.
So, you know, I think we've gota really good current baseline,
(47:39):
so I'd love to be able to do anational assessment in that way.
I guess mostly my role thesedays outside of Platypus is
about facilitating uptake of howpeople can use eDNA for their
purposes.
So working with waterwaymanagements and government
agencies and even sort ofprivate industries around.
(48:00):
You know, what is it that theywant to understand that maybe
they haven't been able topreviously, and can we sort of
use these new tools to help givethem that data so that they can
make better decisions.
So and often we might useplatypus as that flagship.
You know, often if we'reimproving things improving
habitat for platypuses whatwe're really doing is improving
(48:20):
things for bugs, but peoplearen't as passionate and excited
about that.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
No, I always feel sorry for those people who get
excited about bugs, but I guess,because mum did Waterwatch for
so long, I can tell thedifference between a damselfly
and a caddisfly.
You know, I can get into thatand I actually find it's really
good pairing up the water watchtalk with the platypus talk.
So Jed, who's a water watchcoordinator with us here he also
(48:46):
works for us on Rivers ofCarbon Projects.
He did a fantastic communityevent where he was able to talk
about you know how much theplatypus eat and that this is
the sort of things they'reeating, and then to go and look
at what was in the water, and soI love that connection and I
think when you can use somethinglike platypus, which is just
such an amazing mammal, it'sgreat because you've captured
(49:07):
the imagination and from thatpoint you can then actually
explain what else is going on.
So thank you so much for allthe work you're doing.
It's actually reallyappreciated by people like us
who are really trying to connectwith people.
Look, before we head off, wehave three questions that we ask
everybody at the end of everyepisode, and the first one is do
you have a favourite river orwater body?
Speaker 1 (49:29):
that you like to go to.
Wow, that's a tough one.
So I live out in East Gippslandthese days and there's a number
of beautiful waterways out here.
There are, I think, maybe theWingin River, which is one of
the first ones that I sort ofcame out and camped and did some
kayaking along.
That still holds a bit of aspecial place, so I'll go with
(49:53):
that one, I think.
Speaker 2 (49:54):
Go with that one.
And where is it that you feelmost connected to country and to
nature generally?
Speaker 1 (50:02):
it that do you feel most connected to country and to
nature generally?
Well, now that I've moved outof the city probably at my house
I struggle to leave it to goback into Melbourne.
These days I don't know that Ihave a.
I love the diversity ofAustralia.
I've spent time out in themiddle of Australia, in the
desert areas, you know.
I've been up in tropicalregions and in temperate forests
.
I just like getting out thereand exploring, whether it's for
(50:24):
work purposes or you know me andmy partner just like going
camping and hiking and probablybird watching mostly these days.
So there's just something aboutand I think there's some really
good science behind it aboutthe calming effect that nature
has on people.
So yeah, I'm not sure I canfocus on one particular place.
(50:45):
It's more just being out andenjoying what we have.
Speaker 2 (50:48):
Yeah, and look, I think you're right.
Mark and I were talking aboutthe desert and I just love that
red dirt.
There's just something aboutthat red dirt.
Speaker 1 (50:57):
I can go out to my car and still find it People
talk about how barren ourdeserts are, but when you work
out there you realise that Imean most of it's nocturnal and
they're all sort of smallcritters that you don't usually
see.
But it's an amazing place andit's something that probably a
lot of people don't get toexperience.
Speaker 2 (51:16):
I think you're absolutely right.
So my final question and I'msure that listeners can hear the
passion in your voice and howyou light up when you're talking
about platypuses and platypupsand all those things what's
driving you to do what you do?
What is it that keeps you doingwhat you do in this area?
Speaker 1 (51:35):
It's about lessening our impact is essentially the
top of the list for everythingthat we do.
I mean I get quite horrifiedabout, I guess, how not
individuals, it's more as asociety we tend to, whether it's
the waste that we produce, orpollution, or just, you know,
(51:56):
land clearing.
I desperately want to changethat land clearing.
I desperately want to changethat, Whether it's for platypus,
or whether it's for the nakedmole rat or you know, a mayfly
larvae, whatever it is.
I mean it's we have to, andit's not just a cute fuzzy thing
.
I mean we have to do it for ourown survival.
Yeah, that's what gets me outof bed, essentially.
Speaker 2 (52:19):
Well, I'm so pleased that you get out of bed and that
you work on this.
It's wonderful.
It's one of the reasons I lovethis industry so much, because
everyone I speak to is driven bythat need to make a difference
or to make it better or to helpanother species, in many cases,
or a waterway.
So thank you so much for theconversation today.
We will definitely put somelinks with the show notes to
(52:43):
EnviroDNA so people can go andfind out more as well, of course
, some links to some of therecommended places that you can
find out more about platypus.
So thank you very, very much,josh.
I hope you have a wonderfulafternoon.
Speaker 1 (52:55):
Thank you very much.
Pleasure, it's a pleasure,thank you.
Speaker 2 (53:03):
You can subscribe to Take Me to the River wherever
you get your podcasts.
Visit arrcau forward slashpodcast to learn more.
That's arrcau forward slashpodcast.
We acknowledge and respectAboriginal and Torres Strait
Islander peoples as thetraditional and continuing
(53:24):
custodians of the country andthe rivers on which we live,
learn, love and play.
We respect and learn fromelders, past, present and
emerging, valuing theirknowledge, insights, cultures
and connections to the waterwayswe all love and care for.
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