July 14, 2024 • 33 mins
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Ever wondered what a platypus eats, how to remember native plant names, or what it takes to bring a river back to life? Today, ARRC Director Dr. Siwan Lovett sits down with Jed Pearson from the Rivers of Carbon team to answer some of these questions.
Jed has journeyed from Armidale to the ACT and his dedication to conservation through Waterwatch and Rivers of Carbon has only grown as he has learned on and cared for Country. We dive deep into the importance of riparian zones and the various vegetation layers that contribute to a thriving ecosystem, tackling erosion strategies and a case study on the Gudgenby River in the ACT. Jed explains the challenges of planting vegetation for erosion control and the importance of understanding local flora. We also explore plant identification techniques that, despite sometimes frustrating botanical names, help ensure high survival rates for the vegetation planted. This chapter serves as a valuable guide for those looking to mitigate erosion with site-specific approaches and expert consultation.
Lastly, we journey into the fascinating world of macroinvertebrates and their critical role in waterway health. Through the Rivers of Carbon project and Waterwatch program, we underscore the importance of accessible information and citizen science in monitoring water quality. Jed shares how these tiny creatures act as keystone species and indicators, vital to the diets of platypuses and overall ecosystem health. Jed also shares some very amusing ways to remember tricky species names!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You look at the historic effort it took to put
it into the position it is now.
I read a statistic the otherday that they estimate that a
billion trees were cut downbefore 1900.
And if you think of the effortit took with axe and saw to cut
down a billion trees, well youknow, you can see that it's
probably going to take the sameamount of effort to put them
back.
(00:20):
We would like to acknowledgethe traditional owners of the
rivers in which we work and wepay our respects to elders past,
present and emerging, and anyIndigenous people listening.
We would like to acknowledgethe traditional owners of the
rivers in which we work and wepay our respects to elders past,
present and emerging, and anyIndigenous people listening
today.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Hello and welcome to Take Me to the River, sharing
stories and inspiring hope withextraordinary people who care
for our rivers.
I'm your host, Dr Shu-AnneLovett.
Today I'm talking to one of myfavourite people, Jed Pearson.
Jed's a superstar member of ourRivers of Carbon team, the
on-ground component of theAustralian River Restoration
Centre.
Jed's a conservationist with abackground in agriculture and
(01:04):
project management.
He grew up in Armidale, as didI, and he brings his love for
rural Australia, our wonderfullandscapes and passion for
rivers to all that he does inprojects currently around the
ACT and southern New South Wales.
He also works with Waterwatch,an organisation that engages the
community in the environmentthrough monitoring and caring
for our catchments, conductingregular water surveys with
(01:27):
volunteers and bringingeducation to local communities.
Now, Jed's also one of the mostknowledgeable and passionate
people I know when it comes tonative plants and water bugs.
A walk with Jed on Country willleave you with surprising and
plentiful knowledge about localflora and fauna, with a new
appreciation for the complexityand beauty of our natural world.
(01:47):
Jed, welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Thanks, Joanne.
What an introduction.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Pretty good, isn't it ?
Yeah, did you know that?
That was who you are.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
No, no, thanks for that.
Good to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Great.
So, jed, can you tell me howyou came to work with us at
Rivers of Carbon?
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Yeah, sure, I'm from Armidale in New South Wales,
like yourself, and I've moved tothe ACT about six years ago.
I started working forWaterwatch in the NRM industry
in 2021, and I started workingfor the Australian River
Restoration Centre throughLaurie Gould.
So I met her through a projectI was working on for Molonglo
Conservation Group here inCanberra, a woodland birds
(02:27):
restoration, habitat restorationproject.
And then, yeah, laurie had anopening in the Australian River
Restoration Centre and asked meif I'd like to jump on board,
which I snaffled up theopportunity as quick as I could.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
So do you have an expertise in woodland birds, or
is it more the habitat thatbirds need?
That was more the habitat thatbirds need.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
That was more the habitat.
So woodland birds, yeah, Idon't really have much knowledge
in them themselves, but I dohave some knowledge in the
plants and the flora that theyrequire as habitat.
So, yeah, got lucky there aswell.
I managed to get involved inthe Woodland Birds Project.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
And you always learn more on these projects, don't
you?
Oh, absolutely, because youlearn more about what the birds
need and which birds they are.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
You have to, you have to learn, you have to adapt and
you know you have to take eachproject by each project.
So yeah, it's always a goodopportunity to jump on them when
you can.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
So, when it comes to this word habitat, what is it
that you're sort of trying toexplain to them that a habitat
is or needs to have within it?
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Yeah, I think the word habitat gets put into a
little box and it usually getsdefined by people as only being
a hiding place or a refuge foranimals, when it's a lot more
than that it's their food sourceand their water source as well.
So I think we need to broadenhow we imagine the word habitat
being to being larger than whatwe currently put it, as I
suppose you could define habitatas not just being your house,
(03:42):
but a habitat for a human wouldbe also the grocery store and
the water supply as well.
So it's a broader defined termacross the whole landscape, not
just under a rock or under a logor in a hollow.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
So let's talk a little bit about rivers, because
that's how you've come to beworking in rivers of carbon.
When you're driving through thelandscape and you might have
someone along with you, or alandholder, for instance, how do
you describe what a healthyriver is and how do you then let
someone know that maybe theriver on their property, or the
(04:17):
river or the creek or wetlandthat's near them, actually needs
a bit of help?
Speaker 1 (04:22):
There's a few different ways.
I mean, the first and foremostway to check river condition is
biodiversity.
If you have a lot ofbiodiversity in any ecosystem,
you know that ecosystem ishealthy.
So you know, driving along theriver with a landholder, first
thing I'd look for is look atthe riparian condition, look at
what plants are growing.
Colleges talk about habitatbeing in sort of three defined
(04:43):
layers.
So you have canopy, mid-storyand ground cover and you want to
have that sort of set up in anyenvironment, including an
aquatic environment as well.
In-stream vegetation is also abig one in aquatic environments.
And then you're also lookingfor other issues like erosion
and things like that.
Obviously, that's going toindicate a pretty poor system.
(05:03):
So there are other ways you canobviously check.
Just see if you really didn'thave the condition.
We can do sampling, waterquality sampling and then we can
look at the smaller creaturesthat live in there, like your
macro vertebrates, water bugsand things like that.
So yeah, that's what you'rereally looking for.
I'd say biodiversity in anaquatic system is a really good
indicator that that's in prettygood, healthy shape.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
And so the word biodiversity.
I think people often tend tothink of it as just sort of
birds and fish, but it'sactually a biodiverse system, is
one that has a diversity ofplants and animals and small
organisms.
It includes the soil, like it'shuge in its thinking really,
and I was interested just to askyou a little more about those
(05:43):
three defined layers, because Iknow when I drive around I often
see some canopy, but I don'ttend to necessarily see what you
described as the mid layer andthe lower layer.
Why are they so important?
So that's, I'm assuming that'sground cover, and then sort of
shrubs like tea tree.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Exactly, yeah.
So your mid-story layer wedefine it as anything like a
shrub between one and fivemetres, and then your ground
cover layer are those forby andgrassy plants that sit under
that metre, that metre highlevel.
So especially mid-story, inthis area it's really lacking in
the broader landscape.
We as humans, we can't stand it.
We like really tall trees andwe like really short ground
cover like manicured parks.
Our stock can't eat mid-storyand we can't see our stock
(06:31):
through it, so we tend to rip itout pretty quick.
That mid-story layer is actuallya major habitat source for
woodland birds, especially smallwoodland birds.
They need that spiky, dense,shrubby layer to shelter from
big pedigree birds like yourravens and your kookaburras and
your miners and things like that.
So it's really important wekeep these plants in the
landscape.
Your ground cover, on the otherhand, it's extremely important.
Not only does it providehabitat, but it's also covering
the soil and it's stopping anyof that bare ground from
appearing, which can then leadto erosion issues.
(06:53):
So yeah, your ground coverlayer, you get a lot of bang
from your buck out of promotingplant growth there.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
Last week I was fortunate enoughto be on the Flora Peninsula in
South Australia and we weredriving through agricultural
landscapes there and there weresome lovely old trees but there
was so much burning going on ofwood like it was really making
it neat and tidy.
So there was no mid-story layerand that was in sharp contrast
(07:23):
to the weekend before I leftwhere I was up at G-High
campground in the KosciuszkoNational layer, and that was in
sharp contrast to the weekendbefore I left where I was up at
G-High Campground in theKosciuszko National Park and it
has a lot of that spiky, quiteunpleasant bush to walk past
really.
But I was camping right next toit and in the morning it was
just all these little birds keptpopping out.
So we had about 20 birds, thosegorgeous little fairy wrens and
(07:44):
willy wagtails, and then akookaburra appeared in a tree,
gone in an instant likedisappeared.
So I have come to appreciatethat mid-story layer a lot more.
But I do know that for somepeople it's quite a challenge
because it does get us away fromthe idea that good management
is neat and tidy.
How do you explain that to yourlandholders who might be
(08:07):
feeling a bit worried aboutputting in what might be
considered scrubby vegetation.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Yeah, I usually tell my landholders to pick the areas
.
So, areas of high productionvalue, you know, keep them as
areas of high production value,areas that have good
conservation value, keep them asareas of good conservation
values.
So, to coin a phrase, don'thalf-arse it, don't half-arse
your conservation areas anddon't half-arse your production
areas.
And so, when it comes to cleanpaddocks, I mean the saying when
(08:35):
I was growing up was cleanpaddocks equal full silos, but
it's terrible for biodiversity.
So the little things that youcan do on your property to sort
of to help that biodiversity.
So instead of growing up, wedid a lot of rock picking and
stick picking and we burnt lotsand lots of woody debris in
windrows, just thinking we weredoing the right thing.
But sort of retaining.
Retaining that woody debris andand moving them from from high
(08:55):
production areas and thenputting them into these
conservation areas is a reallyeasy way to to retain
biodiversity values on your farm.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
So when you think about the sticks and the leaf
litter, that must be reallyimportant for bugs.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Incredibly important for bugs absolutely, which is
then incredibly important foreverything else, because
everything else relies on thosebugs.
So, getting rid of that leaflitter, I look at it in two ways
.
One, you're getting rid of foodfor all those detritivorous
insects like your cockroachesand your slater bugs and stuff
like that, which feed a lot ofwoodland birds.
But it's also you're removing ahundred year fertiliser block
that's sitting on your farm.
(09:31):
It's slowly releasingfertiliser over a hundred years.
So if you remove that off yourblock over that hundred years,
you're really taking a loss inproductivity in the soil.
So, yeah, it's good stuff, thatwoody debris.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
I do like woody debris and we'll come to how
important it is in the channel,in the river channel, in a
moment, but just before we gothere.
So imagine you're walking outon a property and you've got a
landowner that's really keen todo better.
So they've identified theirriver area as an area they're
willing to fence off from stock,because we know stock's one of
(10:04):
the biggest forces ofdegradation along riverbanks,
and along their riverbankthey've got a few big trees and
a few sort of clumps of grass.
How would that landholder goabout working out what needs to
happen to bring that riparianzone, which is where land and
water meet, back to life?
Speaker 1 (10:23):
It can be difficult.
I think each property it'sgoing to be different, each
river is going to be differentand each issue attacking each
issue is going to be different.
I think, first and foremost,keeping stock off the river is
the first thing that you need todo, and then, after that, comes
the regeneration.
So, whether it be plantingbehind where you've fenced off
or whether you actually need togo in and get machines in the
(10:45):
river to mitigate erosioncontrol, yeah, it's all going to
come at a site-by-site basis,so a lot of resources out to
help you with that.
Rivers of Carbon on theirwebsite definitely have a lot of
resources to help you, you know, work your way through what
issues you have and what mightbe the best way to go around it.
But it's definitely going to besomething that's going to be
case by case.
(11:06):
But keeping stock off, it wouldbe definitely the first point.
No point planting trees if thestock are going to eat it and
there's no point, you know,getting expensive machines in
and bringing in rock andarmoring erosion control issues
when the stock are just going togo and trample the banks again
and negate any riparian growththat you've got back.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
So let's talk a bit more about erosion, because
you've mentioned that a fewtimes.
If you've got a stream that youknow has erosion happening,
which is where you see bareearth and often stock make
tracks which then enable thatsediment to run straight into
the stream, you may be in asituation where it's been
cleared in the past and you'vegot what's commonly called mass
(11:45):
failure or slumping or in somecases, even pillar erosion.
It can look pretty grim.
How do you go about working outwhether you're going to need
rock or you're going to need amachine, or you know like what
do you need to do to addressthat?
I know in some cases, if youactually leave it alone, it can
(12:11):
heal itself if you allow thegrass cover to go over it again.
I know that you've been doingwork on the Gudjumbi River here
in the ACT.
How did you know there where toget that erosion effort put in
to actually address somethingthat was quite badly?
Speaker 1 (12:20):
eroding.
Generally you make an assessmenton the severity.
So you look at each site andgenerally you can tell how
active it is.
By you know you can see wherethe slumping's happening.
If you have sections of soilthat are getting in the river,
that have large amounts of grasscover them, for example, you
know that you probably goterosion.
That's an undercut in the bank.
(12:40):
You know, if you've gotslumping, erosion and you've got
large trees falling in, thenyou know you've got a further
issue with bank stability.
So again, site by site it canbe difficult to do.
Engineers as well are very handyto talk to when it comes to the
large ones.
I'm definitely not an engineer,so we outsource a lot to try
and get experts in to have alook.
(13:01):
But yeah, severity.
So if you've got a relativelysmall erosion event happening on
on your block, that's when it'spretty easy to to treat it.
So you're really looking tomitigate it before it gets to
that stage.
When it is really small, youknow that's when you can.
You can, the farmer can do, doit themselves just with this
rock, or with ironing, with withtimber or or or know, using
(13:24):
geotextile fabric.
Yeah, when they do get moresevere, that's when you probably
need to look at engineeringhelp or hydrologist help.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
And so, for anyone listening, we do actually have a
project that did quite a lot oferosion works that Jed was
responsible for managing, and wewill put some photos up there
so you can see the sort of workwe've done there.
But yeah, you're absolutelyright.
So I think it's reallyimportant for landholders to
know that site by site iscritical and that we often will
(13:53):
get an engineer in if it'slooking like a really big bit of
work, because actually alteringthe flow has really big
implications for rivers.
Rivers like to move naturally,but sometimes with the erosion
that is caused often by notenough cover or by stock, the
river can get into all sorts ofweird and wonderful shapes, and
so you want to make sure thatyou're not going to add even
(14:13):
further to that.
So, yeah, thank you for that.
So erosion is really important.
So you've sorted your erosion.
Then you're going to be lookingat your site to get some plants
in.
I know for myself that I'veplanted over 2000 tube stock on
our property and it's a greatfeeling putting them in at the
beginning, and then you go backand you see what the goats have
(14:34):
done, or you see what the deerhave done and you see some of
the cardboard, you know cartonspushed over.
How much of that vegetation dowe need to survive when you're
putting in that that many plants?
Speaker 1 (14:50):
again, I think site by site basis.
Joanne, I hate to hate to bethat person, but but look some
sites for example, I think aspot that you're talking about
where you've planted some treesand the river's risen and washed
them away.
Sometimes that might be a bitdisheartening, but these things
happen when it comes to plantingtube stock.
So, look, we want to see asmany survivors as we can.
(15:10):
Usually I like to get a 90%survival rate, but some sites
that's just not achievable.
At the end of the day, if youlook at it at a cost per cost
basis, a tube stock's $3.
So if you were to put in 100tube stocks, it costs you $300.
Let's say, one of those livesto be an old growth hollow
bearing eucalyptus tree.
(15:30):
That's worth $300 in my book.
So it depends how you want tolook at it, I think.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
I think that's a great way of looking at it,
because I know that Jed has beenout to our property.
He's done a Land for Wildlifereview on it and we're quite
fortunate because we actuallyhave a lot of intact vegetation,
so that's vegetation thathasn't been damaged.
It is a very steep property,which is why it hasn't been
cultivated.
But what I found reallyinteresting, with Jed being able
(16:00):
to look at the mix of plantsthere, was that a whole range of
grass species I thought was theone species was actually four
or five.
How do you get your eye in sothat you can actually identify
all these plants?
Speaker 1 (16:13):
I really don't like not knowing what they are.
It irks me.
So if I come across a speciesand I don't know what it is, it
irks me up at night so I makesure I look it up and find out
what it is.
But yeah, it's just a matter ofgetting your eye and knowing
what the characteristics of theplant, of the differences of
what the plants are.
So that's why I really don'tlike botanists who name plants
(16:40):
after other botanists, becauseto me the whole point of it is
it's supposed to be a describingword and it's supposed to tell
me what the difference isbetween that one and the other
one, and so using the names aswell is a really good way to
most unless they name it afteranother botanist is a really
good way to to narrow down tospecies I never thought of that,
so the name is meant to giveyou a clue as to the plant.
As to what this species and notthat species.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
So tell our listeners what you told me to look out
for in terms of the wrinklyarmpits.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Oh, okay, so there's two species of eucalypt that
sort of come together.
They're the whitebark eucalypts.
Around this part of the worldwe have Eucalyptus monifera,
which is a brittle gum, and EEucalyptus Rossii, which is a
scribbly gum, and they're verysimilar.
The best way to tell thedifference is the Rossii or the
scribbly gum has wrinkly armpits.
(17:22):
So the junction where the limbmeets the trunk, they'll have
wrinkly armpits, whereas thebrittle gum or the Manifera
won't.
So wrinkly Rossii and manicuredManifera.
That's how I remember that one.
I always have to make up littlerhymes or little tricks to
remember things, so it's a goodone to remember that one.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
That's a great one, because I actually do remember
that, because you're telling mea story and it's that whole
thing about the left and rightbrain.
I know it's been debunked a bit, but it's linking that.
For me it's an emotionalresponse of oh aha, I get that
and it makes me smile with thefact.
Have you got any other examplesof some of the grasses or trees
that you're able to identify?
Speaker 1 (18:03):
So Chilean needlegrass can be difficult to
identify.
Chilean needlegrass looks a lotlike our ostrostypes or our
speargrasses.
So the way that I remember howto identify it is on the Chilean
needlegrass seed.
So on the end of a there's alittle white fleshy membrane
called a corona.
On the Chilean needle grass thefleshy membrane or the corona
(18:24):
is hairy, and on the nativespear grass it's not hairy.
So the way I remember that ishairy.
Chileans drink coronas.
And then there's a native dockcalled Swamp Dock and its
scientific name is Rumex Brownii.
So when you're writing that inshorthand you take the first
three letters of the genus nameand the first three letters of
(18:46):
the species name and when youwrite that down it's Rumbro.
So I threw it as Caniva Rumbro,whereas the non-native dock is
called Curled Dock and it'sRumex Cr Crisp X.
So I say can I have a packet ofchips, bro?
Just silly things to try andhelp me remember.
I've got a lot of them, ohthey're great.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
I love them.
I think what we will do,listeners, is to get Jed to
write a few of those down andwe'll add them to the show notes
so you can have them as a handyhint as to how to identify some
of these things.
That's been really good.
I've still got all these rhymesgoing through my head.
So we have a tube stock guideon the Rivers of Carbon website
(19:27):
that you were involved in inproducing with Izzy.
What is it about that guidethat you think is particularly
useful?
Because I know we took quitesome time to do it, because we
did look across a lot of otherguides that are out there and
tried to make one that waspretty comprehensive.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Yeah, it's very comprehensive and I think that's
where the strengths are.
It gives you instructions onhow to plant tube stock from A
to Z, whether you're someonelike yourself who's planted 2000
, or whether you're just puttingin your first tree.
So we really did find there wasa sort of a real knowledge gap
there with landholders andpractitioners on what are the
do's and don'ts for plantingtube stock, what are the right
(20:01):
ways to go.
So, yeah, I think Izzy did afantastic job with that tube
stock.
She's left no stone unturned sothere's really no question
anyone could ask that theywouldn't find in that tube stock
guide.
So, yeah, I think it's reallyworth its weight in gold, that
guide, just because, as I said,you can tell definitely that
this was the best practice wayto go, especially in this part
of the world.
A lot of stuff on European treeplanting and North American
(20:22):
tree planting, but not a lot forSouth Eastern Australia.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
And I think that's what we've found over the years
with Rivers of Carbon is thatfor many landholders and people
just interested in restoringrivers or grasslands, the
material is scattered across somany different websites that you
don't really know where to findit.
So we are trying in ourresources section to just bring
that information together sothat it's synthesised for you to
(20:46):
make it a lot easier.
So please do jump onto thatresources section so that you
can access that.
It's free, and we just want tosee better outcomes for rivers,
so we'd love to have you startto use that resources page on
our website.
Let's talk a little bit aboutbugs, but bugs in the water Now.
My mum was a water watchfacilitator here in the ACT many
(21:07):
, many years ago and she used toflourish her net a great deal.
She was a fantastic biologyteacher as well, actually, and
she did a lot on reallydemonstrating how citizen
science can be as rigorous androbust as science done in the
lab.
So I know that that's one ofthe central tenets for the
Waterwatch program.
(21:27):
Can you tell me a bit moreabout what it is that you do
with that program and why youthink it's important?
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Yeah, so Waterwatch.
We're a citizen scienceorganisation.
We monitor waterway healththroughout the Upper Ramon Ridgy
, so from Cooma, all the waydown to Yass.
We monitor waterway health in afew different ways.
So we do our volunteers go outand take monthly water quality
samples.
We look at riparian conditionand then the other one we do is
the macroinvertebrate surveys.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
So tell me what is an example, and I don't know
whether you're going to havefunny names for these as well to
remember them.
There's a few, oh, there's afew.
Excellent, I'm looking forwardto that.
So tell me a bit more aboutmacroinvertebrates.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Macroinvertebrates yes, they're really cool.
I'm a big fan.
Look, they're what we call thekeystone species.
So they're a species that isheavily relied upon in the food
chain by most other aquaticorganisms.
So our turtles, our fish, ourbirds, our platypus they all
rely really heavily on our waterbugs for a source of food.
(22:26):
They're also an indicatorspecies, so they're a really
good indicator of waterwayhealth.
So some water bugs are reallysensitive to pollutants.
Some water bugs are reallytolerant of pollutants.
So if I was to brandish a net,like your mum, and go do a quick
sweep in the river and have alook, and if I was to find a lot
of bugs that are reallysensitive, that's an indicator
that the water quality is reallygood.
(22:46):
If I was to find bugs that areonly really tolerant, that's
probably an indication thatthere's an underlying issue
there that we could investigatefurther.
So doing macroinvertebratesurveys is a really quick, cheap
, easy way for us to get a quicksnapshot of what's happening in
the river so then we can theninvestigate further if there is
something else going wrong.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
So what's an example of a really tolerant species
that you might get in your net?
Speaker 1 (23:06):
So a leech or a snail would probably be the most
tolerant ones.
Chewanne's having a big cringethere, but I'd love to see a
leech or a snail here and there.
Our really sensitive ones arethe ones that live sort of
upstream our stoneflies and ourmayflies and our caddisflies.
We really want to be seeing agood assembly of all.
We want to be seeing sensitiveand we want to be seeing
(23:29):
tolerant bugs.
Just because tolerant bugs arethere, that doesn't necessarily
mean that's a bad thing.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
We just don't want to see our sensitive bugs missing.
So I can see that you've gotyour platypus socks on today.
What do platypus like in termsof the macroinvertebrates that
they might?
They eat macroinvertebratesdon't they?
Speaker 1 (23:46):
They solely eat macroinvertebrates, that's right
.
So platypus has to eat up to athird of its body weight every
day in macroinvertebrates, and alactating female possibly even
more.
Possibly up to 40% of theirbody weight every day.
So some platypus can weigh upto two kilos.
That's 600 grams of water bugsevery day, and a water bug
usually weighs less than 0.1 ofa gram, so heavily relied upon
(24:08):
by platypus.
So without water bugs wewouldn't have platypus at all.
And because they're so reliedupon by the platypus, because
the platypus at all, and becausethey're so relied upon by the
platypus, because the platypushave such a big quota to fill
every day.
If we lose one of those orders,if we lose one of the platypus'
bulk food source, then it justhasn't got enough food to
survive.
So at any one time in a riveraround here there's usually
(24:29):
about 10 to 12 different ordersof water bugs and then the
biomass will be made up by thatassemblage of bugs.
So if you think about it in ahuman's perspective, we have a
similar sort of arrangement ofmain staple foods that we use,
if we think about grains, if wethink about meat or veggies.
So if you were to get rid ofall the veggies or all the
(24:49):
grains in the world, a lot ofhumans wouldn't be able to
subside anymore.
And it's exactly the same forthe platypus.
If we were just to get rid ofall the snails or get rid of all
the mayflies, then that's amassive, massive chunk of the
biomass down there that makes upa lot of their food source.
So a lot of the time they justwon't be able to survive.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
And so what do those water bugs need then?
I'm assuming that it's similarto the conversation we had about
the mid-story, and neat andtidy Are you saying we need
messy rivers?
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Exactly what I'm saying.
That's right.
So we need diversity of habitatfor water bugs to thrive.
So water bugs, they all havedifferent roles and they're very
, very diverse in what they do.
Some of them are shredders,like our caddisflies and our
yabbies, which are sort ofdetritivorous and they break up
decaying organic matter in thewater.
Other of them, like our snailsand our mayflies and our
stowflies, they're what we callscrapers, so they scrape algae
(25:39):
off rocks and they clean up ourrivers like that.
Other ones are predators, likeour boatmen, and our true bugs
usually are predators, sothey're cleaning up all the
other bugs.
So you know you really need adiversity of habitat.
So you know we needfast-flowing riffle, we need
slow-moving pools, we need allsorts of different species of
water plants, we needmacrophytes that grow in the
(26:00):
water.
We need water plants that growoutside of the water.
We also need overhangingvegetation of canopy and
mid-story over the water, as alot of our fish and stuff also
eat terrestrial bugs and theydrop in from that mid-story.
So yeah, you really need a bigdiversity of habitat, just like
our terrestrial habitats.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
So I get this picture of you running up and down the
river with a net, you know,scooping bugs out with kids,
with volunteers, and yourenthusiasm being so contagious.
What is it that gives you thebuzz?
Because I know that you givepeople a buzz with your passion
for what it is that you do.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Oh, I mean, obviously I love nature and I love to be
outside and I love to beinvolved with it all, but I love
to see people that love natureas well.
You know one example I doplatypus walks for Waterwatch up
on the Cranbourne River and Ihad a lady come along to a
platypus walk.
It was 94.
And she had never, ever seen aplatypus before.
She didn't believe me that wemight see one on the walk.
Lo and behold, we get acrossthe bridge, there's one.
(26:58):
And the first thing she yelledout was oh my giddy aunt, and I
just absolutely lost it.
I thought it was the funniestthing I've ever heard.
She was so surprised and soexcited to see a platypus.
I thought at 94, that's justfantastic that people are still
passionate and still happy andstill love to see wildlife and
learn new things.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
so that's part of it that's fantastic and I haven't
heard anyone say, oh my giddyaunt, for a long time.
But that's a wonderful, awonderful story and and I know
just from my own experience ofworking in the area of rivers
and I think it's why I've stayedworking in rivers without
actually studying them formallyis that they can just elicit
(27:37):
such joy from people, fromspotting something or finding
that they've got a bird, thattheir neighbour doesn't.
This incredible part of thelandscape where you start to
tune in and I know just havingwalked with you when you came to
do our Land for Wildlife surveyyou were seeing all these
things that I'd never seen.
I was getting really hung up onthe weeds and you were saying
(27:59):
just don't worry too much aboutthem, you've got all this
amazing stuff.
It's that glass half full wayof looking at the world.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
And it can be difficult being a landholder and
getting bogged down into it.
You can put a lot of effortinto removing weeds and trying
to improve it, and a lot of thetime it's a two-step forward,
one-step backwards situation.
And when you do take that stepbackwards it can be daunting and
it can be depressing.
But I think it's important justto look back and look at what
you're actually saving and whatyou're actually protecting.
(28:29):
At the end of the day, I thinka lot of the damage has already
been done, so half of the battleis just ensuring it doesn't get
any worse than what it is, andif you can do that and protect
what's left, I think that is ahuge plus.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Great, really well said, jed, because I do know
that us humans, we put a lot ofpressure on ourselves and our
world thinks about such shorttimeframes.
A couple of weeks ago I wasfacilitating a workshop for the
Tannurung Land and Water Council, an Aboriginal group based in
Victoria, and there's an areacalled the Corrup Wetlands and
(29:04):
they are putting forward a100-year vision for that wetland
and I thought that is sosensible because that's how long
it is that it's going to taketo actually bring back or even
bring back is the wrong word butto restore these environments
into something where environmentand humans can cohabit and
co-create.
So that was a really inspiringthing to do.
And I do remind myself I'mdoing what I can right now and
(29:28):
there will be people that willfollow, so if they can see that
I've done my best, then that'sreally all you can do.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
That's right.
I look at the historic effortit took to put it into the
position it is now.
I read a statistic the otherday that they estimate that a
billion trees were cut downbefore 1900.
And if you think of the effortit took with axe and saw to cut
down a billion trees well youknow, you can see that it's
probably going to take the sameamount of effort to put them
(29:54):
back.
You can look at it two ways.
I look at it as it'sopportunity.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Yeah, yeah, I think you're right, it's opportunity
and hope.
I think, yeah, okay.
Well, as we come to the end ofour discussion today, can you
tell me if you have a favouriteriver or waterway to which you
really get a lot of joy from?
Speaker 1 (30:14):
Yeah, actually I've got two.
Can I say?
Speaker 2 (30:15):
two.
Yeah, you can say two.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
I grew up in Arwood.
I actually grew up fishing onthe Maclay River, which runs
east, starts in Arwood, runseast down to Kempsey.
So growing up as a kid therewas a lot of fishing in that
river, a lot of estuary fishing.
I loved it, so I have a spotfor that one.
Of late, though, my newfavourite river is the
Queanbeyan River.
I really love the QueanbeyanRiver.
(30:37):
It's my lady the Queanbeyan.
It starts up in the Tinderies.
Every time I go I find aplatypus.
It's got really good waterquality and I just think
community of Queanbeyan reallylooks after that river and I
think it's a stand-up job theydo.
Cranby and Landcare, cranby andCouncil.
I really really like that river.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Oh, that's fantastic.
I'll have to go and haveanother look at it.
I haven't been out there forquite some time.
Where do you feel mostconnected to country and to
nature?
Speaker 1 (31:00):
That's a good one.
I don't think I'd say there'sany one place.
I think just being in nature, Ithink, is where I feel most
connected.
I mean, I'm happy on the river,I'm happy up in the hills, I'm
happy in the grasslands, I'mhappy in the rainforest, so I
just like being out and about.
You know, I wouldn't say I'mconnected to any one place, I'm
just connected to the idea of it, I suppose.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
Now I know you have Tarek, your lovely son, six
months old, getting ready tocrawl.
You think what lessons or whatexperiences do you want him to
have that you think have reallyenabled you to connect with the
nature and the work that you do?
Speaker 1 (31:36):
I think, learning to enjoy it, so learning to
appreciate it.
I was very lucky with myparents growing up.
They taught me how toappreciate nature and how to
love it and how to spend time init.
I was a pretty hyperactivechild when I was a kid, so mum
was very good at just letting mego and letting me run around in
the bush and then when I wasneeded again, she'd whistle very
(31:57):
loudly and I'd come runningback like a good puppy.
That's what I want to teachTarek is teach him to learn and
learn to enjoy it and to learnto love it, and I think it's an
easy thing to do.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Oh, it's fantastic, jed, so great talking to you,
and I can see you as a kelpieracing around, no problem at all
.
Thank you so much for talkingto us today.
Listeners, we will put someextra resources there for you a
little bit about water bugs andWaterwatch, links to our Rivers
of Carbon resource page and, ofcourse, some of Jed's wonderful
(32:29):
naming conventions to enable youto remember those wrinkly
armpits of that eucalyptus hewas mentioning.
I look forward to talking toyou all again soon.
Thanks for listening.
You can subscribe to Take Me tothe River wherever you get your
podcasts.
Visit arrcau forward slashpodcast to learn more.
(32:51):
That's arrcau forward slashpodcast.
You look at the historic effort it took to put
it into the position it is now.
I read a statistic the otherday that they estimate that a
billion trees were cut downbefore 1900.
And if you think of the effortit took with axe and saw to cut
down a billion trees, well youknow, you can see that it's
probably going to take the sameamount of effort to put them
back.
(00:20):
We would like to acknowledgethe traditional owners of the
rivers in which we work and wepay our respects to elders past,
present and emerging, and anyIndigenous people listening.
We would like to acknowledgethe traditional owners of the
rivers in which we work and wepay our respects to elders past,
present and emerging, and anyIndigenous people listening
today.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Hello and welcome to Take Me to the River, sharing
stories and inspiring hope withextraordinary people who care
for our rivers.
I'm your host, Dr Shu-AnneLovett.
Today I'm talking to one of myfavourite people, Jed Pearson.
Jed's a superstar member of ourRivers of Carbon team, the
on-ground component of theAustralian River Restoration
Centre.
Jed's a conservationist with abackground in agriculture and
(01:04):
project management.
He grew up in Armidale, as didI, and he brings his love for
rural Australia, our wonderfullandscapes and passion for
rivers to all that he does inprojects currently around the
ACT and southern New South Wales.
He also works with Waterwatch,an organisation that engages the
community in the environmentthrough monitoring and caring
for our catchments, conductingregular water surveys with
(01:27):
volunteers and bringingeducation to local communities.
Now, Jed's also one of the mostknowledgeable and passionate
people I know when it comes tonative plants and water bugs.
A walk with Jed on Country willleave you with surprising and
plentiful knowledge about localflora and fauna, with a new
appreciation for the complexityand beauty of our natural world.
(01:47):
Jed, welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Thanks, Joanne.
What an introduction.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Pretty good, isn't it ?
Yeah, did you know that?
That was who you are.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
No, no, thanks for that.
Good to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Great.
So, jed, can you tell me howyou came to work with us at
Rivers of Carbon?
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Yeah, sure, I'm from Armidale in New South Wales,
like yourself, and I've moved tothe ACT about six years ago.
I started working forWaterwatch in the NRM industry
in 2021, and I started workingfor the Australian River
Restoration Centre throughLaurie Gould.
So I met her through a projectI was working on for Molonglo
Conservation Group here inCanberra, a woodland birds
(02:27):
restoration, habitat restorationproject.
And then, yeah, laurie had anopening in the Australian River
Restoration Centre and asked meif I'd like to jump on board,
which I snaffled up theopportunity as quick as I could.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
So do you have an expertise in woodland birds, or
is it more the habitat thatbirds need?
That was more the habitat thatbirds need.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
That was more the habitat.
So woodland birds, yeah, Idon't really have much knowledge
in them themselves, but I dohave some knowledge in the
plants and the flora that theyrequire as habitat.
So, yeah, got lucky there aswell.
I managed to get involved inthe Woodland Birds Project.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
And you always learn more on these projects, don't
you?
Oh, absolutely, because youlearn more about what the birds
need and which birds they are.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
You have to, you have to learn, you have to adapt and
you know you have to take eachproject by each project.
So yeah, it's always a goodopportunity to jump on them when
you can.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
So, when it comes to this word habitat, what is it
that you're sort of trying toexplain to them that a habitat
is or needs to have within it?
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Yeah, I think the word habitat gets put into a
little box and it usually getsdefined by people as only being
a hiding place or a refuge foranimals, when it's a lot more
than that it's their food sourceand their water source as well.
So I think we need to broadenhow we imagine the word habitat
being to being larger than whatwe currently put it, as I
suppose you could define habitatas not just being your house,
(03:42):
but a habitat for a human wouldbe also the grocery store and
the water supply as well.
So it's a broader defined termacross the whole landscape, not
just under a rock or under a logor in a hollow.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
So let's talk a little bit about rivers, because
that's how you've come to beworking in rivers of carbon.
When you're driving through thelandscape and you might have
someone along with you, or alandholder, for instance, how do
you describe what a healthyriver is and how do you then let
someone know that maybe theriver on their property, or the
(04:17):
river or the creek or wetlandthat's near them, actually needs
a bit of help?
Speaker 1 (04:22):
There's a few different ways.
I mean, the first and foremostway to check river condition is
biodiversity.
If you have a lot ofbiodiversity in any ecosystem,
you know that ecosystem ishealthy.
So you know, driving along theriver with a landholder, first
thing I'd look for is look atthe riparian condition, look at
what plants are growing.
Colleges talk about habitatbeing in sort of three defined
(04:43):
layers.
So you have canopy, mid-storyand ground cover and you want to
have that sort of set up in anyenvironment, including an
aquatic environment as well.
In-stream vegetation is also abig one in aquatic environments.
And then you're also lookingfor other issues like erosion
and things like that.
Obviously, that's going toindicate a pretty poor system.
(05:03):
So there are other ways you canobviously check.
Just see if you really didn'thave the condition.
We can do sampling, waterquality sampling and then we can
look at the smaller creaturesthat live in there, like your
macro vertebrates, water bugsand things like that.
So yeah, that's what you'rereally looking for.
I'd say biodiversity in anaquatic system is a really good
indicator that that's in prettygood, healthy shape.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
And so the word biodiversity.
I think people often tend tothink of it as just sort of
birds and fish, but it'sactually a biodiverse system, is
one that has a diversity ofplants and animals and small
organisms.
It includes the soil, like it'shuge in its thinking really,
and I was interested just to askyou a little more about those
(05:43):
three defined layers, because Iknow when I drive around I often
see some canopy, but I don'ttend to necessarily see what you
described as the mid layer andthe lower layer.
Why are they so important?
So that's, I'm assuming that'sground cover, and then sort of
shrubs like tea tree.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Exactly, yeah.
So your mid-story layer wedefine it as anything like a
shrub between one and fivemetres, and then your ground
cover layer are those forby andgrassy plants that sit under
that metre, that metre highlevel.
So especially mid-story, inthis area it's really lacking in
the broader landscape.
We as humans, we can't stand it.
We like really tall trees andwe like really short ground
cover like manicured parks.
Our stock can't eat mid-storyand we can't see our stock
(06:31):
through it, so we tend to rip itout pretty quick.
That mid-story layer is actuallya major habitat source for
woodland birds, especially smallwoodland birds.
They need that spiky, dense,shrubby layer to shelter from
big pedigree birds like yourravens and your kookaburras and
your miners and things like that.
So it's really important wekeep these plants in the
landscape.
Your ground cover, on the otherhand, it's extremely important.
Not only does it providehabitat, but it's also covering
the soil and it's stopping anyof that bare ground from
appearing, which can then leadto erosion issues.
(06:53):
So yeah, your ground coverlayer, you get a lot of bang
from your buck out of promotingplant growth there.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
Last week I was fortunate enoughto be on the Flora Peninsula in
South Australia and we weredriving through agricultural
landscapes there and there weresome lovely old trees but there
was so much burning going on ofwood like it was really making
it neat and tidy.
So there was no mid-story layerand that was in sharp contrast
(07:23):
to the weekend before I leftwhere I was up at G-High
campground in the KosciuszkoNational layer, and that was in
sharp contrast to the weekendbefore I left where I was up at
G-High Campground in theKosciuszko National Park and it
has a lot of that spiky, quiteunpleasant bush to walk past
really.
But I was camping right next toit and in the morning it was
just all these little birds keptpopping out.
So we had about 20 birds, thosegorgeous little fairy wrens and
(07:44):
willy wagtails, and then akookaburra appeared in a tree,
gone in an instant likedisappeared.
So I have come to appreciatethat mid-story layer a lot more.
But I do know that for somepeople it's quite a challenge
because it does get us away fromthe idea that good management
is neat and tidy.
How do you explain that to yourlandholders who might be
(08:07):
feeling a bit worried aboutputting in what might be
considered scrubby vegetation.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Yeah, I usually tell my landholders to pick the areas
.
So, areas of high productionvalue, you know, keep them as
areas of high production value,areas that have good
conservation value, keep them asareas of good conservation
values.
So, to coin a phrase, don'thalf-arse it, don't half-arse
your conservation areas anddon't half-arse your production
areas.
And so, when it comes to cleanpaddocks, I mean the saying when
(08:35):
I was growing up was cleanpaddocks equal full silos, but
it's terrible for biodiversity.
So the little things that youcan do on your property to sort
of to help that biodiversity.
So instead of growing up, wedid a lot of rock picking and
stick picking and we burnt lotsand lots of woody debris in
windrows, just thinking we weredoing the right thing.
But sort of retaining.
Retaining that woody debris andand moving them from from high
(08:55):
production areas and thenputting them into these
conservation areas is a reallyeasy way to to retain
biodiversity values on your farm.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
So when you think about the sticks and the leaf
litter, that must be reallyimportant for bugs.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Incredibly important for bugs absolutely, which is
then incredibly important foreverything else, because
everything else relies on thosebugs.
So, getting rid of that leaflitter, I look at it in two ways
.
One, you're getting rid of foodfor all those detritivorous
insects like your cockroachesand your slater bugs and stuff
like that, which feed a lot ofwoodland birds.
But it's also you're removing ahundred year fertiliser block
that's sitting on your farm.
(09:31):
It's slowly releasingfertiliser over a hundred years.
So if you remove that off yourblock over that hundred years,
you're really taking a loss inproductivity in the soil.
So, yeah, it's good stuff, thatwoody debris.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
I do like woody debris and we'll come to how
important it is in the channel,in the river channel, in a
moment, but just before we gothere.
So imagine you're walking outon a property and you've got a
landowner that's really keen todo better.
So they've identified theirriver area as an area they're
willing to fence off from stock,because we know stock's one of
(10:04):
the biggest forces ofdegradation along riverbanks,
and along their riverbankthey've got a few big trees and
a few sort of clumps of grass.
How would that landholder goabout working out what needs to
happen to bring that riparianzone, which is where land and
water meet, back to life?
Speaker 1 (10:23):
It can be difficult.
I think each property it'sgoing to be different, each
river is going to be differentand each issue attacking each
issue is going to be different.
I think, first and foremost,keeping stock off the river is
the first thing that you need todo, and then, after that, comes
the regeneration.
So, whether it be plantingbehind where you've fenced off
or whether you actually need togo in and get machines in the
(10:45):
river to mitigate erosioncontrol, yeah, it's all going to
come at a site-by-site basis,so a lot of resources out to
help you with that.
Rivers of Carbon on theirwebsite definitely have a lot of
resources to help you, you know, work your way through what
issues you have and what mightbe the best way to go around it.
But it's definitely going to besomething that's going to be
case by case.
(11:06):
But keeping stock off, it wouldbe definitely the first point.
No point planting trees if thestock are going to eat it and
there's no point, you know,getting expensive machines in
and bringing in rock andarmoring erosion control issues
when the stock are just going togo and trample the banks again
and negate any riparian growththat you've got back.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
So let's talk a bit more about erosion, because
you've mentioned that a fewtimes.
If you've got a stream that youknow has erosion happening,
which is where you see bareearth and often stock make
tracks which then enable thatsediment to run straight into
the stream, you may be in asituation where it's been
cleared in the past and you'vegot what's commonly called mass
(11:45):
failure or slumping or in somecases, even pillar erosion.
It can look pretty grim.
How do you go about working outwhether you're going to need
rock or you're going to need amachine, or you know like what
do you need to do to addressthat?
I know in some cases, if youactually leave it alone, it can
(12:11):
heal itself if you allow thegrass cover to go over it again.
I know that you've been doingwork on the Gudjumbi River here
in the ACT.
How did you know there where toget that erosion effort put in
to actually address somethingthat was quite badly?
Speaker 1 (12:20):
eroding.
Generally you make an assessmenton the severity.
So you look at each site andgenerally you can tell how
active it is.
By you know you can see wherethe slumping's happening.
If you have sections of soilthat are getting in the river,
that have large amounts of grasscover them, for example, you
know that you probably goterosion.
That's an undercut in the bank.
(12:40):
You know, if you've gotslumping, erosion and you've got
large trees falling in, thenyou know you've got a further
issue with bank stability.
So again, site by site it canbe difficult to do.
Engineers as well are very handyto talk to when it comes to the
large ones.
I'm definitely not an engineer,so we outsource a lot to try
and get experts in to have alook.
(13:01):
But yeah, severity.
So if you've got a relativelysmall erosion event happening on
on your block, that's when it'spretty easy to to treat it.
So you're really looking tomitigate it before it gets to
that stage.
When it is really small, youknow that's when you can.
You can, the farmer can do, doit themselves just with this
rock, or with ironing, with withtimber or or or know, using
(13:24):
geotextile fabric.
Yeah, when they do get moresevere, that's when you probably
need to look at engineeringhelp or hydrologist help.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
And so, for anyone listening, we do actually have a
project that did quite a lot oferosion works that Jed was
responsible for managing, and wewill put some photos up there
so you can see the sort of workwe've done there.
But yeah, you're absolutelyright.
So I think it's reallyimportant for landholders to
know that site by site iscritical and that we often will
(13:53):
get an engineer in if it'slooking like a really big bit of
work, because actually alteringthe flow has really big
implications for rivers.
Rivers like to move naturally,but sometimes with the erosion
that is caused often by notenough cover or by stock, the
river can get into all sorts ofweird and wonderful shapes, and
so you want to make sure thatyou're not going to add even
(14:13):
further to that.
So, yeah, thank you for that.
So erosion is really important.
So you've sorted your erosion.
Then you're going to be lookingat your site to get some plants
in.
I know for myself that I'veplanted over 2000 tube stock on
our property and it's a greatfeeling putting them in at the
beginning, and then you go backand you see what the goats have
(14:34):
done, or you see what the deerhave done and you see some of
the cardboard, you know cartonspushed over.
How much of that vegetation dowe need to survive when you're
putting in that that many plants?
Speaker 1 (14:50):
again, I think site by site basis.
Joanne, I hate to hate to bethat person, but but look some
sites for example, I think aspot that you're talking about
where you've planted some treesand the river's risen and washed
them away.
Sometimes that might be a bitdisheartening, but these things
happen when it comes to plantingtube stock.
So, look, we want to see asmany survivors as we can.
(15:10):
Usually I like to get a 90%survival rate, but some sites
that's just not achievable.
At the end of the day, if youlook at it at a cost per cost
basis, a tube stock's $3.
So if you were to put in 100tube stocks, it costs you $300.
Let's say, one of those livesto be an old growth hollow
bearing eucalyptus tree.
(15:30):
That's worth $300 in my book.
So it depends how you want tolook at it, I think.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
I think that's a great way of looking at it,
because I know that Jed has beenout to our property.
He's done a Land for Wildlifereview on it and we're quite
fortunate because we actuallyhave a lot of intact vegetation,
so that's vegetation thathasn't been damaged.
It is a very steep property,which is why it hasn't been
cultivated.
But what I found reallyinteresting, with Jed being able
(16:00):
to look at the mix of plantsthere, was that a whole range of
grass species I thought was theone species was actually four
or five.
How do you get your eye in sothat you can actually identify
all these plants?
Speaker 1 (16:13):
I really don't like not knowing what they are.
It irks me.
So if I come across a speciesand I don't know what it is, it
irks me up at night so I makesure I look it up and find out
what it is.
But yeah, it's just a matter ofgetting your eye and knowing
what the characteristics of theplant, of the differences of
what the plants are.
So that's why I really don'tlike botanists who name plants
(16:40):
after other botanists, becauseto me the whole point of it is
it's supposed to be a describingword and it's supposed to tell
me what the difference isbetween that one and the other
one, and so using the names aswell is a really good way to
most unless they name it afteranother botanist is a really
good way to to narrow down tospecies I never thought of that,
so the name is meant to giveyou a clue as to the plant.
As to what this species and notthat species.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
So tell our listeners what you told me to look out
for in terms of the wrinklyarmpits.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Oh, okay, so there's two species of eucalypt that
sort of come together.
They're the whitebark eucalypts.
Around this part of the worldwe have Eucalyptus monifera,
which is a brittle gum, and EEucalyptus Rossii, which is a
scribbly gum, and they're verysimilar.
The best way to tell thedifference is the Rossii or the
scribbly gum has wrinkly armpits.
(17:22):
So the junction where the limbmeets the trunk, they'll have
wrinkly armpits, whereas thebrittle gum or the Manifera
won't.
So wrinkly Rossii and manicuredManifera.
That's how I remember that one.
I always have to make up littlerhymes or little tricks to
remember things, so it's a goodone to remember that one.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
That's a great one, because I actually do remember
that, because you're telling mea story and it's that whole
thing about the left and rightbrain.
I know it's been debunked a bit, but it's linking that.
For me it's an emotionalresponse of oh aha, I get that
and it makes me smile with thefact.
Have you got any other examplesof some of the grasses or trees
that you're able to identify?
Speaker 1 (18:03):
So Chilean needlegrass can be difficult to
identify.
Chilean needlegrass looks a lotlike our ostrostypes or our
speargrasses.
So the way that I remember howto identify it is on the Chilean
needlegrass seed.
So on the end of a there's alittle white fleshy membrane
called a corona.
On the Chilean needle grass thefleshy membrane or the corona
(18:24):
is hairy, and on the nativespear grass it's not hairy.
So the way I remember that ishairy.
Chileans drink coronas.
And then there's a native dockcalled Swamp Dock and its
scientific name is Rumex Brownii.
So when you're writing that inshorthand you take the first
three letters of the genus nameand the first three letters of
(18:46):
the species name and when youwrite that down it's Rumbro.
So I threw it as Caniva Rumbro,whereas the non-native dock is
called Curled Dock and it'sRumex Cr Crisp X.
So I say can I have a packet ofchips, bro?
Just silly things to try andhelp me remember.
I've got a lot of them, ohthey're great.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
I love them.
I think what we will do,listeners, is to get Jed to
write a few of those down andwe'll add them to the show notes
so you can have them as a handyhint as to how to identify some
of these things.
That's been really good.
I've still got all these rhymesgoing through my head.
So we have a tube stock guideon the Rivers of Carbon website
(19:27):
that you were involved in inproducing with Izzy.
What is it about that guidethat you think is particularly
useful?
Because I know we took quitesome time to do it, because we
did look across a lot of otherguides that are out there and
tried to make one that waspretty comprehensive.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Yeah, it's very comprehensive and I think that's
where the strengths are.
It gives you instructions onhow to plant tube stock from A
to Z, whether you're someonelike yourself who's planted 2000
, or whether you're just puttingin your first tree.
So we really did find there wasa sort of a real knowledge gap
there with landholders andpractitioners on what are the
do's and don'ts for plantingtube stock, what are the right
(20:01):
ways to go.
So, yeah, I think Izzy did afantastic job with that tube
stock.
She's left no stone unturned sothere's really no question
anyone could ask that theywouldn't find in that tube stock
guide.
So, yeah, I think it's reallyworth its weight in gold, that
guide, just because, as I said,you can tell definitely that
this was the best practice wayto go, especially in this part
of the world.
A lot of stuff on European treeplanting and North American
(20:22):
tree planting, but not a lot forSouth Eastern Australia.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
And I think that's what we've found over the years
with Rivers of Carbon is thatfor many landholders and people
just interested in restoringrivers or grasslands, the
material is scattered across somany different websites that you
don't really know where to findit.
So we are trying in ourresources section to just bring
that information together sothat it's synthesised for you to
(20:46):
make it a lot easier.
So please do jump onto thatresources section so that you
can access that.
It's free, and we just want tosee better outcomes for rivers,
so we'd love to have you startto use that resources page on
our website.
Let's talk a little bit aboutbugs, but bugs in the water Now.
My mum was a water watchfacilitator here in the ACT many
(21:07):
, many years ago and she used toflourish her net a great deal.
She was a fantastic biologyteacher as well, actually, and
she did a lot on reallydemonstrating how citizen
science can be as rigorous androbust as science done in the
lab.
So I know that that's one ofthe central tenets for the
Waterwatch program.
(21:27):
Can you tell me a bit moreabout what it is that you do
with that program and why youthink it's important?
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Yeah, so Waterwatch.
We're a citizen scienceorganisation.
We monitor waterway healththroughout the Upper Ramon Ridgy
, so from Cooma, all the waydown to Yass.
We monitor waterway health in afew different ways.
So we do our volunteers go outand take monthly water quality
samples.
We look at riparian conditionand then the other one we do is
the macroinvertebrate surveys.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
So tell me what is an example, and I don't know
whether you're going to havefunny names for these as well to
remember them.
There's a few, oh, there's afew.
Excellent, I'm looking forwardto that.
So tell me a bit more aboutmacroinvertebrates.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Macroinvertebrates yes, they're really cool.
I'm a big fan.
Look, they're what we call thekeystone species.
So they're a species that isheavily relied upon in the food
chain by most other aquaticorganisms.
So our turtles, our fish, ourbirds, our platypus they all
rely really heavily on our waterbugs for a source of food.
(22:26):
They're also an indicatorspecies, so they're a really
good indicator of waterwayhealth.
So some water bugs are reallysensitive to pollutants.
Some water bugs are reallytolerant of pollutants.
So if I was to brandish a net,like your mum, and go do a quick
sweep in the river and have alook, and if I was to find a lot
of bugs that are reallysensitive, that's an indicator
that the water quality is reallygood.
(22:46):
If I was to find bugs that areonly really tolerant, that's
probably an indication thatthere's an underlying issue
there that we could investigatefurther.
So doing macroinvertebratesurveys is a really quick, cheap
, easy way for us to get a quicksnapshot of what's happening in
the river so then we can theninvestigate further if there is
something else going wrong.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
So what's an example of a really tolerant species
that you might get in your net?
Speaker 1 (23:06):
So a leech or a snail would probably be the most
tolerant ones.
Chewanne's having a big cringethere, but I'd love to see a
leech or a snail here and there.
Our really sensitive ones arethe ones that live sort of
upstream our stoneflies and ourmayflies and our caddisflies.
We really want to be seeing agood assembly of all.
We want to be seeing sensitiveand we want to be seeing
(23:29):
tolerant bugs.
Just because tolerant bugs arethere, that doesn't necessarily
mean that's a bad thing.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
We just don't want to see our sensitive bugs missing.
So I can see that you've gotyour platypus socks on today.
What do platypus like in termsof the macroinvertebrates that
they might?
They eat macroinvertebratesdon't they?
Speaker 1 (23:46):
They solely eat macroinvertebrates, that's right
.
So platypus has to eat up to athird of its body weight every
day in macroinvertebrates, and alactating female possibly even
more.
Possibly up to 40% of theirbody weight every day.
So some platypus can weigh upto two kilos.
That's 600 grams of water bugsevery day, and a water bug
usually weighs less than 0.1 ofa gram, so heavily relied upon
(24:08):
by platypus.
So without water bugs wewouldn't have platypus at all.
And because they're so reliedupon by the platypus, because
the platypus at all, and becausethey're so relied upon by the
platypus, because the platypushave such a big quota to fill
every day.
If we lose one of those orders,if we lose one of the platypus'
bulk food source, then it justhasn't got enough food to
survive.
So at any one time in a riveraround here there's usually
(24:29):
about 10 to 12 different ordersof water bugs and then the
biomass will be made up by thatassemblage of bugs.
So if you think about it in ahuman's perspective, we have a
similar sort of arrangement ofmain staple foods that we use,
if we think about grains, if wethink about meat or veggies.
So if you were to get rid ofall the veggies or all the
(24:49):
grains in the world, a lot ofhumans wouldn't be able to
subside anymore.
And it's exactly the same forthe platypus.
If we were just to get rid ofall the snails or get rid of all
the mayflies, then that's amassive, massive chunk of the
biomass down there that makes upa lot of their food source.
So a lot of the time they justwon't be able to survive.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
And so what do those water bugs need then?
I'm assuming that it's similarto the conversation we had about
the mid-story, and neat andtidy Are you saying we need
messy rivers?
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Exactly what I'm saying.
That's right.
So we need diversity of habitatfor water bugs to thrive.
So water bugs, they all havedifferent roles and they're very
, very diverse in what they do.
Some of them are shredders,like our caddisflies and our
yabbies, which are sort ofdetritivorous and they break up
decaying organic matter in thewater.
Other of them, like our snailsand our mayflies and our
stowflies, they're what we callscrapers, so they scrape algae
(25:39):
off rocks and they clean up ourrivers like that.
Other ones are predators, likeour boatmen, and our true bugs
usually are predators, sothey're cleaning up all the
other bugs.
So you know you really need adiversity of habitat.
So you know we needfast-flowing riffle, we need
slow-moving pools, we need allsorts of different species of
water plants, we needmacrophytes that grow in the
(26:00):
water.
We need water plants that growoutside of the water.
We also need overhangingvegetation of canopy and
mid-story over the water, as alot of our fish and stuff also
eat terrestrial bugs and theydrop in from that mid-story.
So yeah, you really need a bigdiversity of habitat, just like
our terrestrial habitats.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
So I get this picture of you running up and down the
river with a net, you know,scooping bugs out with kids,
with volunteers, and yourenthusiasm being so contagious.
What is it that gives you thebuzz?
Because I know that you givepeople a buzz with your passion
for what it is that you do.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Oh, I mean, obviously I love nature and I love to be
outside and I love to beinvolved with it all, but I love
to see people that love natureas well.
You know one example I doplatypus walks for Waterwatch up
on the Cranbourne River and Ihad a lady come along to a
platypus walk.
It was 94.
And she had never, ever seen aplatypus before.
She didn't believe me that wemight see one on the walk.
Lo and behold, we get acrossthe bridge, there's one.
(26:58):
And the first thing she yelledout was oh my giddy aunt, and I
just absolutely lost it.
I thought it was the funniestthing I've ever heard.
She was so surprised and soexcited to see a platypus.
I thought at 94, that's justfantastic that people are still
passionate and still happy andstill love to see wildlife and
learn new things.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
so that's part of it that's fantastic and I haven't
heard anyone say, oh my giddyaunt, for a long time.
But that's a wonderful, awonderful story and and I know
just from my own experience ofworking in the area of rivers
and I think it's why I've stayedworking in rivers without
actually studying them formallyis that they can just elicit
(27:37):
such joy from people, fromspotting something or finding
that they've got a bird, thattheir neighbour doesn't.
This incredible part of thelandscape where you start to
tune in and I know just havingwalked with you when you came to
do our Land for Wildlife surveyyou were seeing all these
things that I'd never seen.
I was getting really hung up onthe weeds and you were saying
(27:59):
just don't worry too much aboutthem, you've got all this
amazing stuff.
It's that glass half full wayof looking at the world.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
And it can be difficult being a landholder and
getting bogged down into it.
You can put a lot of effortinto removing weeds and trying
to improve it, and a lot of thetime it's a two-step forward,
one-step backwards situation.
And when you do take that stepbackwards it can be daunting and
it can be depressing.
But I think it's important justto look back and look at what
you're actually saving and whatyou're actually protecting.
(28:29):
At the end of the day, I thinka lot of the damage has already
been done, so half of the battleis just ensuring it doesn't get
any worse than what it is, andif you can do that and protect
what's left, I think that is ahuge plus.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Great, really well said, jed, because I do know
that us humans, we put a lot ofpressure on ourselves and our
world thinks about such shorttimeframes.
A couple of weeks ago I wasfacilitating a workshop for the
Tannurung Land and Water Council, an Aboriginal group based in
Victoria, and there's an areacalled the Corrup Wetlands and
(29:04):
they are putting forward a100-year vision for that wetland
and I thought that is sosensible because that's how long
it is that it's going to taketo actually bring back or even
bring back is the wrong word butto restore these environments
into something where environmentand humans can cohabit and
co-create.
So that was a really inspiringthing to do.
And I do remind myself I'mdoing what I can right now and
(29:28):
there will be people that willfollow, so if they can see that
I've done my best, then that'sreally all you can do.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
That's right.
I look at the historic effortit took to put it into the
position it is now.
I read a statistic the otherday that they estimate that a
billion trees were cut downbefore 1900.
And if you think of the effortit took with axe and saw to cut
down a billion trees well youknow, you can see that it's
probably going to take the sameamount of effort to put them
(29:54):
back.
You can look at it two ways.
I look at it as it'sopportunity.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Yeah, yeah, I think you're right, it's opportunity
and hope.
I think, yeah, okay.
Well, as we come to the end ofour discussion today, can you
tell me if you have a favouriteriver or waterway to which you
really get a lot of joy from?
Speaker 1 (30:14):
Yeah, actually I've got two.
Can I say?
Speaker 2 (30:15):
two.
Yeah, you can say two.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
I grew up in Arwood.
I actually grew up fishing onthe Maclay River, which runs
east, starts in Arwood, runseast down to Kempsey.
So growing up as a kid therewas a lot of fishing in that
river, a lot of estuary fishing.
I loved it, so I have a spotfor that one.
Of late, though, my newfavourite river is the
Queanbeyan River.
I really love the QueanbeyanRiver.
(30:37):
It's my lady the Queanbeyan.
It starts up in the Tinderies.
Every time I go I find aplatypus.
It's got really good waterquality and I just think
community of Queanbeyan reallylooks after that river and I
think it's a stand-up job theydo.
Cranby and Landcare, cranby andCouncil.
I really really like that river.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Oh, that's fantastic.
I'll have to go and haveanother look at it.
I haven't been out there forquite some time.
Where do you feel mostconnected to country and to
nature?
Speaker 1 (31:00):
That's a good one.
I don't think I'd say there'sany one place.
I think just being in nature, Ithink, is where I feel most
connected.
I mean, I'm happy on the river,I'm happy up in the hills, I'm
happy in the grasslands, I'mhappy in the rainforest, so I
just like being out and about.
You know, I wouldn't say I'mconnected to any one place, I'm
just connected to the idea of it, I suppose.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
Now I know you have Tarek, your lovely son, six
months old, getting ready tocrawl.
You think what lessons or whatexperiences do you want him to
have that you think have reallyenabled you to connect with the
nature and the work that you do?
Speaker 1 (31:36):
I think, learning to enjoy it, so learning to
appreciate it.
I was very lucky with myparents growing up.
They taught me how toappreciate nature and how to
love it and how to spend time init.
I was a pretty hyperactivechild when I was a kid, so mum
was very good at just letting mego and letting me run around in
the bush and then when I wasneeded again, she'd whistle very
(31:57):
loudly and I'd come runningback like a good puppy.
That's what I want to teachTarek is teach him to learn and
learn to enjoy it and to learnto love it, and I think it's an
easy thing to do.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Oh, it's fantastic, jed, so great talking to you,
and I can see you as a kelpieracing around, no problem at all
.
Thank you so much for talkingto us today.
Listeners, we will put someextra resources there for you a
little bit about water bugs andWaterwatch, links to our Rivers
of Carbon resource page and, ofcourse, some of Jed's wonderful
(32:29):
naming conventions to enable youto remember those wrinkly
armpits of that eucalyptus hewas mentioning.
I look forward to talking toyou all again soon.
Thanks for listening.
You can subscribe to Take Me tothe River wherever you get your
podcasts.
Visit arrcau forward slashpodcast to learn more.
(32:51):
That's arrcau forward slashpodcast.
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