October 23, 2024 • 50 mins
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37% of Australia's freshwater species are facing extinction in the next century. In the words of today's guest, Dr. Nick Whiterod, "it is now a conscious decision not to act."
Native fish populations in Australia are estimated to be less than 10% of their size pre-colonisation. This country has experienced one of the worst records of recent extinctions worldwide, and many more of our species are predicted to be lost in the near future – not unless we act now. Freshwater species have a disproportionately higher risk of extinction compared to terrestrial and marine counterparts, but are often overlooked, with few aware of how much trouble they’re really in. Dr. Nick Whiterod is a leading expert in the field of freshwater species conservation and recovery, and there’s no one better to speak with about this great challenge than him.
Nick is the driving force behind the Science Program at the Coorong, Lower Lakes and Murray Mouth (CLLMM) Research Centre based in Goolwa, South Australia. He is an ecologist with over two decades of experience, conserving and researching freshwater species and ecosystems across South Australia and Australia-side. He has conducted several successful reintroduction projects, contributed to the national listing of more than 50 freshwater fish and crayfish, and actively worked to understand and conserve freshwater fish across Australia, including in the Mt Lofty Ranges and the Coorong, Lower Lakes and Murray Mouth region. Nick was a 2018 Churchill Fellow and recently received the 2023 Unsung Hero of South Australian Science.
In today's show, we unravel the ecological treasures of this breathtaking Ramsar site at the Murray-Darling Basin's end. Nick opens up about the region's unique freshwater ecosystems and the pressing challenges they face, from reduced water flows due to upstream extraction to the historical necessity of barrages that protect the freshwater supply. We discuss the significance of environmental water flows and the complexities of managing water resources across jurisdictional boundaries; dive deep into the urgent need for conservation and the threats faced by Australia's native freshwater species; highlight the importance of First Nations collaboration in conservation efforts, and more.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Hello and welcome to Take Me tothe River, sharing stories and
(01:27):
inspiring hope withextraordinary people who care
for our rivers.
I'm your host, dr Shu-AnneLovett.
Today I'm talking to Dr NickWhiterod, science Program
Manager at the Coorong, lowerLakes and Murray Mouth Research
Centre based in Goolwa, southAustralia Centre.
Based in Goolwa, southAustralia.
(01:47):
Nick is an ecologist with overtwo decades of experience
conserving and researchingfreshwater species and
ecosystems across SouthAustralia and Australia wide.
He's conducted severalsuccessful reintroduction
projects, contributed to thenational listing of more than 50
freshwater fish and crayfish,and actively worked to
understand and conservefreshwater fish across Australia
.
Nick was a 2018 WinstonChurchill Trust Fellow and
(02:09):
recently received the 2023Unsung Hero of South Australian
Science.
He's a leading expert in thefield of freshwater species
conservation and recovery andthere's no one better to speak
with about this great challengethan him.
So, nick, thanks so much forjoining us today.
It's lovely to have you on theprogram.
I want to start by asking youwhat the view is like out your
(02:31):
window this morning, having beento your amazing office down
there in Goolwa.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah, lovely to be chatting.
Yeah, it's a pretty good view.
So we're right on the water'sedge, not too far from the
barrage on Goolah Channel.
So it's one of those thingsthat if you get to see the river
or your part of the world dailyand you see different things,
so you sort of see lots of waterbirds coming through and
(02:58):
fishing along the water and yousee lots of people.
We're right near a boat ramp aswell, so you can see all the
trials and tribulations ofpeople trying to launch boats
and do all that.
But yeah, it's just fantasticto be immersed in the area that
we're working on.
It's really good.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
There is something about looking out at water and
day to day.
You know, my office is in myhome, so I look out at the park,
which is nice.
But I must say I've now got sortof a backdrop behind me of the
upper bidgie whenever I'm on ateam's call, and so I often feel
like I'm literally sitting inthe river, which is kind of nice
.
But I know that you are.
You could go out at any momentand actually get your feet wet
(03:37):
yeah, it doesn't really, butoccasionally it's a bit bit too
much.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
The challenge is really bad to say, but it's not
too much out there.
But, yeah, or you get consciousthat you've been looking at the
screen for too long, but it isreally lovely to be working on
something there, just to stopfor a moment and look after it.
You can see how I answer thewater and see.
You know what's going on.
It is actually.
We're very blessed.
It's an amazing spot.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
So tell our listeners a bit more about the Coorong
and the Lower Lakes.
I know that you're ScienceManager for the Coorong, Lower
Lakes and Murray Mouth ResearchCentre.
Can you locate people as towhere that is?
Speaker 2 (04:12):
So essentially we're based in Galwa, which is about
an hour south of Adelaide, butit's right near the Murray Mouth
, so it's at the end of theMurray-Darling Basin.
So, yeah, we get all the waterand everything flowing down.
It comes through the Murray andthen into the lower lakes.
There's Lake Alexandrina, whichis the big one, and then Lake
(04:36):
Albert flows around through aseries of channels, past the
barrages to the mouth, but thenthere's also the Coorong, which
is a really interesting long,narrow hypersaline water body.
Yeah, so again, it's a reallyimportant area internationally.
It's a Ramsar site, but big atthe end of the basin.
It's a really significant andreally important area to be
(04:58):
looked after.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
So why did they put barrages in?
Because I know a lot of ourlisteners would have heard about
the Coorong and the MurrayMouth but they're probably
wondering well, why did we endup putting barrages across that?
So that you know, whilst itmight have done some benefit,
it's actually also done someharm to those ecosystems that
would have had just a long,regular flow of water going out.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Yeah, it was pretty well in response to upstream
extraction.
So the amount of water it doesvary a bit, but I always say
it's about 50% of what it wasnaturally comes down the river
now.
So this region has lost 50% ofits flow.
So the barrages were put inplace effectively to block the
estuary and the marineenvironment from the freshwater
(05:44):
lakes.
So it's a really hard barrierand, yeah, essentially it was
put in place to make sure thatthere was freshwater around on
the freshwater side.
So obviously, if you'rereducing the amount of flow that
comes down, there'd be a lotgreater push-up of the
freshwater.
So the thing is the barrageswere put across the tidal prism
so effectively they've cut theestuary off, which is obviously
(06:09):
a huge disruption.
But things have improved overrecent years in terms of water.
For the environment, thebarrages are a really good way
of managing the system now andthere's fish rays on the
barrages, so I guess ideallythey wouldn't be there, but
under the heavy regulatedMurray-Dunham Basin they sort of
(06:30):
need to be there at the moment.
But the thing is, with climatechange and sea level rise, which
will impact the region, theefficiency of the barrage is
under question.
So, into the future, what arethe implications.
There's already storm surgesthat have an impact.
So, again, it's a reallyimportant area and it's a really
(06:51):
difficult area, I guess, tomanage with so many different
things at play and differentdrivers occurring.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
So when you say they're a hard barrier, having
walked on them myself, I knowthat seals use them a lot as a
resting place and they're verymuch like hanging out where the
fish passage is, because they'renot stupid.
But yeah, we actually almostwent through.
It felt like a lock to get ourboat to go through the barrages
and and out.
So do they play around withwhen they're open and when
(07:20):
they're shut, or are they mostlyalways open?
Now, how does that work and whomakes those decisions?
Speaker 2 (07:27):
yeah.
So obviously water managers Isay water manage the barrages
with um, the departmentenvironment and mdba as well.
So again it's it's probablyreflective of what's occurring
throughout the basin that themandate is to maintain the lakes
at a fairly stable level, plusor minus I can't remember what
it is probably 10 to 20centimetres, so keep them quite
(07:48):
level.
But in recent times there'sbeen a lot more flexibility.
They now manage the lakes in away that promotes inundation of
sort of shallow areas overspring and then brings it back
down.
So there's a lot moremanagement and again that's
using the barrages as thatmanagement lever and then, so
water's coming into the region,you can do something in the
(08:09):
lakes.
Then there's certain ways ofgetting water down into the
Kurong.
So the Kurong it's a reverseestuary, so it's seawater at its
closest point to the mouth, but90 kilometres down it's saltier
than the ocean and it's aone-way.
There's a little bit of flowthat historically came in from
the southeast of South Australia, but predominantly the flows
(08:30):
have come from the Murray, soit's a one-way, narrow sort of
water body that's quitedifficult at times to get fresh
water down into.
It does happen, though.
The recent flooding has shownthat it gets quite fresh under
the right amount of flow comingdown and also, again, the right
management in different ways.
Wind is a big driver for thesystem, so playing with
(08:55):
operation at different times,under different flows and
different winds can have hugebenefits to certain parts of the
region.
Huge benefits to certain partsof the region.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
I have tried to camp actually on the Coorong and we
have a camper trailer that has atent that pops out the back,
but it was so windy we didn'tput the tent up.
So it's a really wild place andof course most people would
remember Storm Boy and thepelican Mr Percival down there.
It sounds like a fascinatingsystem and and I know many years
ago I was doing some work on aparticular plant called a rupia
(09:29):
and there was a.
They were talking about theCoorong being in almost a
tipping state, where it would gofrom, or I can't quite remember
whether it would be algaldominated to, is it the riparian
vegetation dominated?
Anyway, has that tipping pointbeen reached in some parts and
are we accepting that we've gotnew ecosystems emerging?
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Yeah, that's the real challenge about how to manage
anywhere, particularly in thecurrent, about what the desired
state is.
What do we go back to?
Do we go back to a naturalstate that we're trying to
achieve, or are we moving ourthinking along under the current
constraints of the system?
So yeah, root gear, again, is areally important plant in the
(10:12):
co-op and it fluctuates in termsof its abundance and comes back
at certain times and then, whenthe system is stressed, it sort
of drops out.
Yeah, it's really complicated.
Again, there's a lot at playthere and there's a lot of work
by a lot of people at the momentto try and, let's just say,
work out what state we want forthe Kural moving forward and
(10:34):
then, yeah, again, bringing inwhat the implications of climate
change for the region are, howthat sort of influences, how we
view the system and what we viewas a healthy, functioning um,
yeah, curon and region.
So yeah, again, it's quitecomplicated, quite complex it's
all those competing demands,isn't it not?
Speaker 1 (10:54):
I was interested when you were saying about 10 to 20
centimeters depth.
People are going what?
Like that's tiny, but uh, it'sactually vitally important for
water birds, isn't it?
That's why so um such acritical ecosystem for the
Ramsar migratory birds inparticular, I think.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Yeah, absolutely so.
The Coorong, the whole region,is relatively shallow but it has
mudflats through the Coorongwhich wading water birds.
That's where they get theirfood, that's their habitat.
So it's that thing and it'salways amazing.
We've got birds that come tothe Coorong and they fly off all
around the world and it'salways quite amazing that that
(11:32):
happens.
And so, yeah, having thosehabitats for water birds is
really, really important andthen managing the system for
that.
But then again, I know I'msaying complicated and complex
quite a bit, but there's otherdemands, other parts of the
region that need water and needwater at different times.
So there's obviously fish thatare moving through the system.
(11:55):
There's the freshwater side, asI mentioned, that needs water
at times.
So, again, there's a lot ofpeople that are working on that
balance and that trade-off andtrying to optimise when water's
sent to different spots underdifferent conditions to get the
best outcomes.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
So we've talked about plants and we've talked about
birds, but I know that yourfirst love is fish, and one of
the fish species or the type offish that have really been
impacted are the diadromous fish.
We had a talk with Wayne Costaabout freshwater eels a while
ago and he was telling us thesad story of watching them.
I think they put tags into themand they go out to sea and then
(12:33):
when one of the tags sort ofsuddenly, I think they can get a
temperature level on them andwhen it sort of gets a bit warm,
it's actually because it's beeneaten, which is a bit sad, but
what sort of diadromous fishhave you got going up and down
through the Coorong now that thefishways are there?
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Yeah, exactly.
So this is the only place inthe whole Murray Delivin that
has an estuary and has anopening to the sea.
So there's a huge range ofspecies that come in and again,
with the barrages, when theywere installed, there wasn't a
hell of a lot of thinking aboutthose environmental impacts, and
particularly the impacts onfish species.
So those dinodamous ones have arequirement to spend some time
(13:14):
in the freshwater and then headout to the estuary or the ocean
to spawn or complete their lifecycle.
So now with the fishways,there's been a whole range of
species that have recovered it'sprobably not the word, but have
improved.
So there's congoli, there'scommon galaxids, there's
lampreys, which are prettyinteresting species.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Ugliest fish in the world?
I reckon yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
When there was reports of their numbers had
increased through some surveysthat occurred, they had to put
out a press release saying oh,don't worry, they've got sucker.
That sucks on the fish, don'tworry, it's not harmful to your
children, you're allowed to goin the water, don't be scared,
all these kind of things.
But it's, yeah, just one ofthose amazing species that you
(14:00):
see.
But that fish, the connectionand then the ability for fish to
move through the system is oneof the big restoration outcomes
that has occurred in theMurray-Darling Basin.
In theory, fish can now travelfrom the ocean all the way up to
Lake Hugh and I think thisLarry, the Land Prey that people
track that has moved up toMildura at least.
(14:22):
So it's moving upstream intothe freshwater, having come in
from the ocean.
But it's also about theresident bream species and
mullet being able to movethrough the system and utilise
habitats that they need as well.
So connection is critical in asystem like this, but many
systems so would the Cooronghave had pulses, like we often
(14:46):
hear?
Speaker 1 (14:46):
like connectivity, I think most people sort of get,
but in some of the work in theenvironmental flows we know that
they're actively putting waterdown at particular times to give
a pulse to the river like thespring pulse.
Would that have continued downto the Coorong or would it be
dissipated because of the sizeof the area?
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Yes, it definitely would have and that does occur.
So I guess, yeah, it's quitehard to explain without a map.
There is a map behind us but Iwon't worry about using that.
But the water will come downinto the mouth and so some of
the water obviously goes out themouth, but it also then shuts
down to the coral.
So again, there's a wholetrade-off between getting water
(15:26):
down for the needs of the coralat certain times, but also
getting water out the mouth andtrying to maintain the mouth
open as much as possible butthen also providing attractive
flows for those diatomaceousfish you mentioned and then
again, on the freshwater side,ensuring that there's that
variation that some of thesmall-bodied fish and some of
the other species need topromote spawning in spring but
(15:47):
also allow recruitment oversummer and through the autumn
through that system.
So, yes, there's definitelypulses.
Again, it's a complexmanagement of the water, all
sort of on the back of there notbeing the water that there was
down to the system.
So it's sort of managing it asbest as possible, which is
challenging, with lots ofcompeting demands.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
It is.
I do remember being at an eventonce and I think they were
talking about environmentalwater going through Victoria, so
it must have been in Victoria.
And someone was saying an eventonce and I think they were
talking about environmentalwater going through Victoria, so
it must have been in Victoria,and someone was saying, oh, but
you haven't used all that waterup in Victoria.
It's going to get wasted if itgoes through to South Australia.
How often do you come by?
You know, hear that these days,like I know that you know for a
(16:30):
long time.
I mean, I've been in thisbusiness 25 years now.
So 25 years ago it was verymuch.
This is our water and we'regoing to keep it within our
state or jurisdiction as long aswe can, particularly if you're
maybe the upstream states andSouth Australia is always going.
We need more.
We need more.
What do you think in terms ofhow people's understanding has
gone of the concept of riverhealth, not necessarily
(16:52):
respecting jurisdictionalboundaries?
Speaker 2 (16:55):
I think it definitely has improved, but there's
definitely still that mindset of, yeah, any water coming past
your area and we're all quitelocalised in our thinking at
times, but we still, yeah,occasionally hear water going
out the mouth of the Bay River,but also the Murray is a waste.
Yeah, that's still somethingthat you hear quite often and it
(17:17):
doesn't sort of appreciatebenefits.
So, even for marine nearshorepippies or cockles, they need a
freshwater flow out the mouthfor their food source and then
obviously some of thoseestuarine species need
freshwater inputs into theirenvironment.
So, yeah, it still occurs.
I've lived and worked inMildura and Albury and back in
(17:40):
South Australia.
It's funny, I always liketelling this one about the
perspective.
So when you're in upstream,people go, you've got to get the
headwaters right and thebenefits flow downstream, and
then when you're down at thelower end of the system, it's
rivers die from the mouth up.
So it definitely is thatperspective where people are
viewing it.
We all do it.
We all definitely do it.
(18:01):
You view the world from yourunderstanding and your part of
the world.
But I think, yeah, it hasimproved, but I think it's still
a challenge that we all need tosort of consider, that we need
to, yeah, be thinking on abroader scale and seeing where
our part of the world fits inwith the rest of the system.
Definitely.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Yeah, I would be very guilty of saying we have to
start upstream, given that we'vebeen doing our big campaign on
the upper Murrubidji.
That gets less than 5% of itsflow, but I am fully aware of
where the water goes, so I'mfine about it going all the way
out to the Coorong.
It's a fabulous place.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Yeah, exactly Things.
If it's not one or the other,necessarily, you can have
multiple benefits of watercoming down the system at
different spots and flooding outthe floodplains and coming back
here and then making its waydown.
So, yeah, I think we'reprobably.
The broader thing is that we'reprobably all, as a collective,
going to be working moretogether, because we're better
(18:58):
together than some of thethreats that are facing rivers
and facing the Murray-Darlingand things that we need to
collectively work togetheracross multiple regions.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
I totally agree and that sort of brings us nicely or
not nicely to the state ofnative fish in the basin.
So I know you've done a lot ofwork on this and I was kind of
wondering.
Actually, at a recentpresentation you gave, you
actually went through anddescribed the differences
between terms like threatened,vulnerable, endangered and
(19:29):
critically endangered.
I think it might be reallyuseful for people to hear and
also where our freshwater fishspecies are sitting in terms of
those categories.
Are you able to be reallyuseful for people to hear and
also where our freshwater fishspecies are sitting in terms of
those categories?
Are you able to run throughthose for us?
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Yeah, absolutely, and I guess, like before, I've done
a lot of conservationassessments in recent times, but
before that I was assigned ayear.
Oh, critically endangered,endangered what do these terms
mean?
And they are easy to change attimes and there's all sorts of
different uses.
So each species when it'sgetting assessed it's through
the International Union forConservation of Nature, iecn,
(20:03):
which some of your listenerswould have heard is sort of the
gold standard for assessing thestatus of species, and then
that's adopted by EPC, sort ofconsistent more or less.
So you go through to assess thespecies.
There's almost 30 differentsteps involved and that's once
you've made the, once you'vedrafted the assessment.
(20:26):
There's 30 steps of engagement,public consultation, all these
kind of different processes toget to that end point of a
listed species.
So it's a long process.
There's five different criteriathat relate to population
declines, the rate of decline,the range of the species and
different threats.
But essentially, I guess ifyou're looking at critically
(20:47):
endangered, you're reallylooking at an extremely high
risk of the species becomingextinct in the wild.
So it might be akin to a 50chance of survival or extinction
, I should say, in the next 10years.
So yeah, I think it's puttingthose kind of numbers to it I
think really crystallizes it inyour mind that hey, we're
(21:08):
dealing with something that'sgot a 50 chance of not being
around in in the wild.
So this isn't just onepopulation in one area, this is
the whole species.
So when you do hear of acritically endangered species,
that's sort of the realm you'redealing with and then it
obviously goes down in level ofrisk.
In terms of endangered is about20% in the next 20 years still
(21:31):
under threat.
That species has probably gotmore population so it's got
threats that aren't justoperating on the whole range
where a critically endangeredspecies might be in a relatively
restricted range and have asingle fire come through and
place the whole species underthreat, whereas an endangered
has a little bit more resilience, a bit more capacity to deal
(21:53):
with various threats and thenobviously vulnerable is a lower
threshold.
But it still means the speciesneeds our attention, it needs
some consideration.
It's probably a 10% chance inthe next 100 years of it going
extinct.
So again, really critical to befocusing on those species.
But also, I guess every speciesin some ways needs our
(22:19):
attention really, and working onone species doesn't benefit for
other species, so there's afair bit in that as well, just
to make sure that a lot of thefocus is on threatened species.
When there is focus and we cantalk about how much focus there
is on threatened species, butagain we need to be conserving
ecosystems, conserving habitatwithin a region that benefits
(22:42):
threatened species but alsobenefits other species.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
So threatened is the sort of start.
Then you go vulnerable, thenendangered and then critically
endangered.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Yeah, so threatened is just the catch-all to say
that it's in one of those threatcategories I should mention.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
Oh, no, that's absolutely fine, because you
know I'm in this all the time,but I never actually had that
explained.
So thank you for that.
That's very useful.
So can you tell me then ormaybe I don't want to know, but
no, I do want to know where aresome of our it's mainly
freshwater fish that you'velooked at, I think, that are
critically endangered?
Do?
Speaker 2 (23:19):
we have many in that category, yeah, so getting back
to the second part of yourquestion, so a colleague, Mark
Littermans, who I think has beenon the podcast and some of your
listeners will know, led anIECA assessment of all
Australian freshwater fish andit showed that 37% are
threatened with extinction.
So they're in one of thosevulnerable, critically
(23:40):
endangered categories.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
So 37% Wow.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
Yeah, across Australia, and so a lot of the
trends there's a range ofgalactic species that occur in
the high country occur throughVictoria.
But what that showed was thatthere are hot spots of
threatened species and I guessyou can probably understand some
of those more developed areaswhere there's more people having
(24:06):
a lot more threats.
But there was also a threatenedspecies in the Kimberley across
northern Australia, which issort of not necessarily what
you'd necessarily or what you'dthink.
You'd think, well, there'srelatively a fair bit of water
there.
There hasn't been quite thedevelopment, but I guess it
highlighted that there'sthreatened species all across
Australia in terms of freshwaterfish and we really again need
(24:28):
to be considering them either ina recovery sense or in a sense
that there hasn't been thedevelopment.
We need to be quite carefulabout how we go about if we are
to develop certain areas, how wego about that and how we
consider the species that arepresent there.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
So it sounds like it's not just flow.
What else is impacting on thesespecies?
Speaker 2 (24:50):
A lot of things.
It is a lot of flow, definitely, I should say, but it's also
water extraction.
So a number of the small-bodiedspecies particularly use static
or wetland habitat.
So a lot of our wetlands havereceived less water.
Some have received permanentwater and an in-date the whole
time, whereas others don't havethe water regime they once had.
(25:12):
So that's a big issue.
This associated habitatdestruction they used to take
out water, debris and snags fromrivers, which is taking out
habitat.
Alien species is a big one.
It's fair to say that trout,redfin and carp as well are
major impacts to our species.
(25:33):
But I guess and this sort ofgets to the point about us all
working together with climatechange is sort of the looming
not looming coming is alreadyhaving influence threat to a lot
of these species, freshwaterspecies that we have in
Australia.
So yeah, there's going to beprofound changes to water regime
(25:54):
, but also the frequency ofdroughts and in some areas again
down this way, sea level risewill potentially have a huge
implication on freshwaterhabitats in the current Lowell
Lakes and Murray Mouth region.
So huge threats.
And obviously we've seenbushfires, we've seen major
floods and the concern is thatwe've got species that are
stressed under regulated systems, seen major floods, and the
(26:14):
concern is that we've gotspecies that are stressed under
regulated systems and then theyhave these extreme disturbance
events if it's a drought or ifit's a bushfire, and they come
in more frequently.
It's the big concern that theseevents might have been occurring
in the past, but less frequent,but now you've got them and
your listeners are probablyaware of.
(26:36):
We've had a bushfire, thenwe've had a drought, then we're
having this and that, but theyseem to be the space between
those events is becoming shorterand the magnitude of the events
is becoming more extreme.
So that's a real concern and areal consideration about how
we're going about managingthreatened species.
So you can do a lot of good inthe good years when there's
(26:58):
habitat, when there's water, butthen you're having these
extreme events that might undo alot of that good work, or
you've got to manage for andyou've got to work out
strategies to rescue species ordo a whole range of things, get
areas that you can protect, allthis kind of thing.
So, yeah, yeah, that's a lot ofthreats to deal with for a lot
(27:19):
of these species.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
And, in your view, is it about accepting that we're
going to lose some species whomight have a particular sort of
habitat that's not found anymore, that it would be very hard for
us to create, so that we lookafter one species, or, as you
were saying, do we go?
Well, we know that healthyrivers will benefit a lot, so
(27:41):
let's just focus on gettingriparian veg in, or is it a mix
of different strategies, becauseit's going to be quite
difficult to deliver such afairly bleak message for people
around 37% of species.
Where do you think that lies?
Or is it just a big combination?
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Yeah, yeah, I guess it's.
Also I've worked a lot on spinycrayfish and they're even more
threatening.
There's turtle threatening.
So there's a lot of otherfreshwater species that have
been neglected and now we're ina place where we're sort of
understanding their status.
But it's going to bechallenging because, having
worked that have been neglectedand now we're in a place where
we're sort of understandingtheir status.
But it's going to bechallenging because, having
(28:20):
worked on a number of species,there's one yarra-fing perch
that you feel obligated to beprotecting, which was impacted
during the millennium droughtdown here in the Lower Lakes.
Like you think everyone'sworking on different, you think
they've all got to be saved.
I think that's got to be thestarting point that we're not
going to accept the loss ofcertain species but moving
(28:43):
forward.
Maybe it does have to be aprioritisation where we just
accept which is reallychallenging in your mind and
really difficult, because you dobecome like you're the same for
what you work on the upper VGNand all the things you feel
personally responsible at timesfor the fight.
So the thing that you're mostpassionate about and to accept
that, okay, we're only going toprioritize certain number of
(29:04):
species, is really challenging.
I don't.
Yeah, I don't think we're quitethere yet, um, or need to be
quite there yet, but I think,yeah, we've.
But I guess we need to beconsidering if we're not
prepared to put the resources inthen at a national level or at
different levels, we need toaccept that, which is, again,
it's really daunting, it'sreally confronting to deal with
(29:26):
as an issue.
But, yeah, hopefully we're notthere yet and we can sort of
turn things around before it'stoo late.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
I think hope is essential and I've often asked
people on this podcast you know,what keeps your hope alive?
What is it for you?
What keeps your hope going?
Your optimism, yeah, it's agood question.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
I guess you go through cycles, so you look at
the bigger picture and go, well,geez, there's a lot of issues
confronting you and then you getdown into the day-to-day or the
actual doing and it's a lot ofthe team effort.
So a lot of these species I'veworked on and a lot of
conservation success.
(30:09):
It's a team effort.
So it's passionate people, it'smanagers, it's scientists, it's
everyone local, community,first Nations, groups, all
involved.
And I guess that's where themotivation comes from and that's
where the hope comes from thatyou can see like-minded people
that are just as passionateabout preserving something that
99% of the people in Australiadon't even know exists.
(30:31):
So I guess that's where thehope comes from.
But yeah, again, it is thatsort of cycle in your head where
you start thinking, geez, theimpact threats are extreme and
how do we deal with all of themfor all of these species?
And then you again go down tothe level of getting involved
and doing actions and workingwith lots of good, passionate
(30:51):
people, and that sort ofprovides you with hope.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Yeah, I think you're absolutely right.
I know that someone at the teamhere was saying that they'd
woken up early in the morningand you know they were
reflecting on hearing about thenumber of extinctions and just
feeling really saddened andupset by it, but that when you
sort of get with your team andyou know that you're doing the
very best you can as anindividual trying to affect
(31:16):
change, that you can feel thatyou know you are going to get
somewhere.
And I know the presentationthat you gave to us all at the
Stream Management Conference.
You actually used the phraseit's now a conscious decision
not to act and I was wonderingif you can expand a bit on what
you meant by that.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Yeah, absolutely, and I guess what I meant by that
was that we now have theinformation.
So, whereas we might have beenflying blind with a lot of
species so, in terms offreshwater fish, there was 33
listed species in Australia in2019.
As of 2024, there's now 63.
And for the crayfish, there wasthree listed in 2019 and this
(31:53):
is 2024.
There's now 63.
And for the crayfish, there wasthree listed in 2019 and now
there's 26.
So we have a lot.
We have the knowledge of thestatus of a lot of these species
.
We have a knowledge of what thethreats are, what the actions
are required, what we need to do, and then there's been some
work that's looked at how muchit does cost to recover
threatened species.
So we have some of thatinformation and it's not an
(32:15):
astronomical amount.
I think during the conference Iequated it to how much
Australians it's in the billions, but how much Australians spend
on pet care and vet bills.
So it's not an amount that'soff the chart.
So we have the knowledge, wehave insight about what needs to
be done.
There is still the challengesthat are perhaps out of our
(32:37):
control about what we do withsome of the threatening
processes.
But yeah, it's definitely achoice now that we're making as
a society, as a country, to say,well, we're not prepared to put
the resources in for some ofthese threatened species, for
whatever reason.
But on the flip side, we dohave that opportunity now and I
guess that's where it's wherethe hope still lies that we do
(32:58):
have that information.
We do have a lot of challenges,yes, but we've got the
information.
We've got lots of passionatepeople that have been involved
and, yeah, we are at a time thatwe can make a difference.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Yeah, it was fascinating.
Can you remember the figurethat you had for the expenditure
on pets?
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Yeah, it was $33 billion.
$33 billion, that's right.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
And so for listeners out there, that's the grooming,
that's the food, that's the vets, that's the clothes if you
dress your dogs up or your catsup.
But I think what that actuallyshows more is humans connection
to animals and how much we valuethat connection.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Somehow we need to try and widen the connection so
that people in cities or peoplewho just don't know anything
about these little fish start tocare yeah, and that promotion
is is a huge thing and like ifpeople are living their
day-to-day life and whateverthey're doing, they've got kids
that go to get to school andsport and all these kind of
things.
It's like there's otherpriorities, but it is, yeah, it
(34:00):
is.
A big part of our roles in thisfield is to promote as well we
can with different people,promote the plight and raise
awareness about things that theydon't know about and they
haven't had an interest in.
But you can definitely getpeople hooked on an unusual
species or a little thing thatlooks pretty nondescript.
(34:22):
You can definitely getdifferent groups passionate and
interested about them,absolutely.
So, yeah, we've made it anongoing challenge to raise
awareness of these species,because it's really critical to
raise that profile and getpeople thinking in a way that
they're prepared to make adifference.
And if it's voting for peoplethat have got policies that are
(34:44):
related to conservation, thenthat's good.
But then that filters down toactual resources for actions on
the ground.
Can you tell us I?
Then that filters down toactual resources for actions on
the ground.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
Can you tell us?
I know that you have actuallyrescued a little fish, a few
little fish, because it was theMurray hardyhead Can you tell us
about that project, Becausethat's quite a personal one for
you?
You actually created habitatfor that little fish, didn't you
?
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Yeah, exactly so the number of those small body fish
that I've worked on.
Again, it's a collective effortand I've been fortunate to be
involved with some reallypassionate people.
But the Murray hardyhead is onethat occurs.
It's a salt-tolerant species,occurs throughout the lower
lakes but also in off-channelwetland habitats along the
(35:28):
southern Murray-Darling Basin.
And again, as I talked about,with the loss of wetland
habitats in Australia,particularly the Murray-Darling
Basin, a lot of their habitatsdisappear and so now we're
finding backup habitats that aresaline, saline disposal basins,
(35:49):
all these kind of things, andthe species thrive.
So in the local region we'vegot a network of backup
populations for that species buta number of other ones that in
farm dams.
But also one of the hugesuccesses that those built
beyond wetlands just out ofVictor Harbor, not too far from
where I am in Goolwa here.
It's a development, it's aneco-friendly development and the
(36:11):
developer is someone out ofSteve Wright.
It looks like he's out of anOut of Africa movie film, but
he's just so passionate aboutconservation and he's given over
.
I'm not quite sure how muchland it actually is, but there's
eight to ten ponds where we'vegot Murray hardy and we've got
different threatened species.
It's not for profit groupsdriving that with the developer
(36:35):
and it's such a great success.
It's providing backuppopulations that then can be
used to release into the wild.
So for Murray, hardyhead,during the millennium drought
they were lost from Lake Albertand we've been able to release
over 30,000 fish back into thewild and the old one has been
detected in Lake Albert andwe've been able to release over
30,000 fish back into the wildand they have.
The old one has been detectedum in Lake Albert.
(36:56):
So it's having success.
But again, it's thatcollaboration, that partnership
between different groups, notgroups that you'd always think
would be working together, butit works so well in that
instance.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
Never underestimate the power of introducing someone
to a little fish, and I, I knowthat we had a.
We were looking after apopulation of Southern Pygmy
perch, trying to reintroducethem to a little Creek in New
South Wales, and we were havinga, you know, a field day, and so
we caught a few of the of theperch and we thought, oh dear,
it would be really good to showthis in some sort of a glass
container.
So the landholder nipped home,bought home a glass container
(37:30):
really nice looking glass oneactually and went down to the
local RSL club, had it up aseveryone could see.
Anyway, his wife came and saidwhat's that fish doing in that
wedding gift that we got given?
But it looked great.
And you know there was lots ofjokes about.
You know you're not going toget much of a feed from a fish
(37:50):
that's only about 10 centimetreslong, but they started to.
You know the landholdersstarted to say, oh, I might have
seen one of those.
So it's getting that engagement, isn't it?
And a bit of humour and fun.
That really connects people.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Yeah, and that's probably another big thing in
terms of what's kept me going isthe humour side of things.
So, as we've discussed, it canbe quite bleak and daunting what
we're dealing with.
But, yeah, having good peoplethat you're dealing with but
also having some humour, I think, doesn't mean that you're not
as interested or not aspassionate, but it just breaks
(38:26):
it up and makes people connectwith it.
It's quite good.
It's a huge part of what I liketo do.
My days don't work.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
That's brilliant, really good.
Tell me a little bit about thework that you're doing now then,
obviously taking all thiswealth of knowledge that you've
had from working in differentparts of the basin.
I'm intrigued to know howyou're now working with First
Nations in the Coorong and LowerLakes region, because I know
that's a really big focus foryou.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
How's that work going ?
Yeah, so I'll just take you astep back.
So at the Coorong and LowerLakes Marine Mouth Research
Centre, it came about fromcommunity advocacy saying we
need a local research centre inthe region.
There's been quite a lot ofresearch in this region but they
wanted a local presence.
And then people do that all thetime and nothing comes of it.
(39:14):
But actually something came ofthis which was a bit remarkable.
So then the research centrestarted last July and it's
pretty well got the because ofhow the origins got a mandate to
let community but also FirstNations, as you mentioned, drive
the research agenda.
So it's not research comingdown from the top saying this is
(39:34):
what you're going to work on.
It's dealing with connectingwith different community members
, different community groups andFirst Nations in Naranjeri here
, but also First Nations in theSouth East, to decide what
research the research centreundertakes, and spoken with
thousands of people to getpriorities, but also managers as
(39:56):
well.
So it hasn't just beencommunity and First Nations, and
it's remarkable that thealigning of priorities so, like
you might think, communitypeople have a completely
different perspective, firstNations have a different
perspective, managers have adifferent perspective, but a lot
of it has aligned.
So it's been really.
Yeah, it's been a really quickprocess and really enjoyable to
(40:17):
bring people together and therehas been the old barf line idea
that sort of hasn't got legs.
But generally, yeah, it's aboutlooking after the region, it's
about water, it's about keybiodiversity across the region.
So in terms of First Nations,there's been lots of work down
(40:37):
here with the Narragerie aboutgetting on country and that's a
huge thing.
So we're trying to build onthat with getting First Nations
embedded in research.
So obviously there's prioritiesbut also having opportunities
to be involved.
So some of the projects aredealing with extensions.
There's been some work on thefreshwater soak.
So along the coastal dunes, thebarrier between the ocean and
(41:00):
the Coorong, there's freshwatersoak which can be about 300 EC.
So you've got the ocean thereat 50,000 EC, you've got the
Coorong, which could be aspecialty of that, and you've
got this beautiful fresh waterin the sand dunes effectively.
So hugely culturally importantbut also from an ecological
sense.
So there's been some workthrough the department
(41:20):
environment with differentNgarangjeri, different sort of
First Nations groups, and thenwe are adding to that with a
research component that'slooking at the water balance for
those stoats but also thevulnerability to climate change,
and a big part of that will beextending work to get First
Nations out of the country.
(41:41):
So it's, you know, like everyoneis recognising the importance
of including local First Nationsgroups and there are challenges
, like there's been lots of lossof knowledge through cultural
knowledge, through committees,through, obviously, all the
impacts that have occurred.
So it's about capacity building.
(42:01):
It's about raising awarenessand also providing a platform, a
safe platform, for FirstNations to be involved.
So we've got a First Nationsengagement officer, kyla
McHughes, that's reallyconnected across the region and
bringing in lots of differentFirst Nations perspectives.
It's as simple as language.
So bringing in language intoFirst Nations language into the
(42:24):
research, but also, as I said,getting a safe, comfortable
platform for First Nations to beinvolved.
That it's not just, hey, we'redoing this, give us your
thoughts, give us yourperspectives, but actually
taking it back to say what areyour priorities.
And then, how do you want to beengaged into work, in this case
(42:45):
of research, because it can bereally daunting for everyone.
Really, research has somewhatof a sting with it.
It's this really intellectual,highbrow thing and people yeah,
their knowledge is not worthy tobe incorporated.
So we're trying to break downthat with community as well,
that everyone's sort of equaland everyone's views are
(43:07):
considered the same.
So, yeah, that's sort of wherewe're trying to go with the
research centre and make it abit more of a connection with
community and First Nations.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
I think that's you know.
In my experience that's thebest place to start is to
actually go and look atsomething that someone knows
something about, in this casethe freshwater soak, and
understand you know how does itwork.
Then we want to understand thescience underpinning how that
water is coming up through there, whether it's groundwater,
whether it's filtered, whateverit might be from the sea.
But yeah, I totally agree withyou and I know I do get a bit
(43:41):
frustrated when we keep invitingFirst Nations and community
groups into meeting rooms inoffice blocks that are
completely disconnected fromwhat you're actually trying to
achieve.
You get so much more done whenyou're on country or you're just
looking at something that youall care about.
You're much more likely toactually get something done.
(44:02):
So I'm delighted to hear thatthat's the sort of approach and
I can see on the banner behindyou.
You've got First Nations,community Knowledge and then, in
big letters, I impact.
So I'll be keen to see how thatgoes.
I know you're only juststarting out.
Speaker 2 (44:15):
Yeah, that's right and yeah, we are just starting
it.
So we're definitely trying tolive what we're preaching and
we've got our research projectskicking off and there's lots of
opportunity for involvement.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
But, yeah, we're passionate about it, so we're
hoping to achieve a lot that'sgreat, and for any listeners who
are down in gore, where you areable to drop into the research
center and say, hi, they've gotan amazing model there that I've
already played with, where it'sjust super you can move sand.
Actually, it's fine glass,isn't it?
and it you can move it aroundand you can do the shapes and
(44:50):
see where the water moves, andit's very, very cool.
So, look, we're coming to anend of this talk, but I know I'm
going to be getting in touchwith you again because I want to
find out more about your doing.
But I wanted to actually askyou three questions.
Actually, it's going to be four, because I want to know do you
have a favourite freshwater fishspecies?
(45:11):
Or it could be diadromous,given that you're down the end
there- yes, I do.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
They're all my favourites, but my favourite is
probably it's not a fish, it's acrayfish.
So the Murray crayfish, whichI've done a lot of work on, and
my partner, who's an ecologistas well, has done a lot of work
on Sylvia yeah, it's the secondlargest freshwater crayfish in
the world.
If your listeners have everseen one, they're pretty
(45:38):
impressive, pretty historicbeast.
That's probably my favouritefreshwater animal.
Lovely, they're all myfavourites.
They're like children you can'tpick a favourite.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
It's difficult, isn't it, listeners?
We will put a picture of aMurray crayfish with the show
notes there, so you can see thatyou've got Nick's favourite one
there, but they're all hisfavourites.
We'll make that clear as well.
What about a favourite body ofwater, or river or waterway?
Speaker 2 (46:05):
Again, they're all my favourites.
I do have a favourite, butobviously down here, as you say,
being connected to the water isimpressive.
So the Lower Lakes, the Curraland the Murray-Mount Estuary.
I was born in Hilston, newSouth Wales, so I've got a soft
spot for the Lachlan, but itwould be the Murray River, so
I've spent on crayfish surveysparticularly a lot of time,
(46:29):
often two weeks a year on theMurray during winter, which is a
beautiful time.
So all the way from the highcountry down to to the South
Australia.
So it's, yeah, it's amazing.
I love the Murray so much.
It's got beautiful spots thereand if you're out and about and
you sort of have a moment torelax, it's so peaceful, um,
then you can forget all thechallenges, all the issues that
(46:52):
are going on when you're sittingby a body of water, as you, um,
as you sort of mentioned in theintro.
Um, but yeah, probably theMurray, but they're all my
favourite, yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:02):
So I think you've answered my next question, which
is where you feel mostconnected, and I know I'm the
same.
I feel most connected when I'mnext to water.
Is that, is that right, or am Imaking an assumption there?
Speaker 2 (47:13):
Yeah, no, definitely yeah, and next by the coast as
well now, but yeah, I still feelmore of a connection by fresh
water I often need to.
Wherever I am or whatever it is, I need to know that there's
some water nearby for somereason, if you're not going to
visit it or do anything.
But yeah, it definitely has acalming influence and yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:37):
I agree, totally agree, and my last question is
what drives you to do what youdo?
Speaker 2 (47:44):
Yeah, I guess it's a lot of the things that we talked
about, but it is an obligationin some senses that there's
times when you felt yourself anda small group of people are the
only ones who are responsiblefor this species.
And obviously that'ssimplifying it a bit.
But with some of the speciesthat were lost from the lower
(48:05):
lakes and you've got backuppopulations and you sort of feel
like you're not working onthese species.
So that is is probably whatdrives you.
But it's also yeah, it's, it'sas you mentioned it's about
doing, doing the best you can.
All these you know, sort ofchallenging issues we're facing.
But if you can put your head onthe pillow each time and feel
(48:26):
that you've done your best andtried to achieve things and and
I guess there has been successesso you talked about the little
southern bimby perch.
They were lost during themillennium drought around the
lower lakes and throughreintroductions, have recovered,
so there has been success so Ithink that that also drives you
along, that you can sort of seethat what you're doing can have
(48:49):
a benefit at times.
So it's not all beating yourhead against the wall.
There are successes andoutcomes that are positive.
So those sort of yeah, thosethree are probably driving me.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
Yeah, and look, I think so many of the people I
talk to it's a similar themethat you know.
You sort of get to a pointwhere you go, well, look, I can,
I'll just do the very best Ican, and then, as you say, you
put your head on the pillow atthe end of the night and say,
okay, I've done what I can do,I'll rest now and tomorrow's
another day, yeah.
So, thank you so much, nick.
(49:21):
My pleasure and for listeners,we'll put some links up for you
that will take you to the CLEM,to the Coorong Lower Lakes,
murray Mouth Research Centre, ifyou want to go and have a look
at that, and we'll also put afew photos up.
Nick did a great shout out forWorld Rivers Day, which has
happened just recently, so we'llput some of those photos there
(49:41):
for you as well.
So until next time, I hope youtravel well and we'll talk again
soon.
Bye for now.
I love them all.
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Hello and welcome to Take Me tothe River, sharing stories and
(01:27):
inspiring hope withextraordinary people who care
for our rivers.
I'm your host, dr Shu-AnneLovett.
Today I'm talking to Dr NickWhiterod, science Program
Manager at the Coorong, lowerLakes and Murray Mouth Research
Centre based in Goolwa, southAustralia Centre.
Based in Goolwa, southAustralia.
(01:47):
Nick is an ecologist with overtwo decades of experience
conserving and researchingfreshwater species and
ecosystems across SouthAustralia and Australia wide.
He's conducted severalsuccessful reintroduction
projects, contributed to thenational listing of more than 50
freshwater fish and crayfish,and actively worked to
understand and conservefreshwater fish across Australia
.
Nick was a 2018 WinstonChurchill Trust Fellow and
(02:09):
recently received the 2023Unsung Hero of South Australian
Science.
He's a leading expert in thefield of freshwater species
conservation and recovery andthere's no one better to speak
with about this great challengethan him.
So, nick, thanks so much forjoining us today.
It's lovely to have you on theprogram.
I want to start by asking youwhat the view is like out your
(02:31):
window this morning, having beento your amazing office down
there in Goolwa.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah, lovely to be chatting.
Yeah, it's a pretty good view.
So we're right on the water'sedge, not too far from the
barrage on Goolah Channel.
So it's one of those thingsthat if you get to see the river
or your part of the world dailyand you see different things,
so you sort of see lots of waterbirds coming through and
(02:58):
fishing along the water and yousee lots of people.
We're right near a boat ramp aswell, so you can see all the
trials and tribulations ofpeople trying to launch boats
and do all that.
But yeah, it's just fantasticto be immersed in the area that
we're working on.
It's really good.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
There is something about looking out at water and
day to day.
You know, my office is in myhome, so I look out at the park,
which is nice.
But I must say I've now got sortof a backdrop behind me of the
upper bidgie whenever I'm on ateam's call, and so I often feel
like I'm literally sitting inthe river, which is kind of nice
.
But I know that you are.
You could go out at any momentand actually get your feet wet
(03:37):
yeah, it doesn't really, butoccasionally it's a bit bit too
much.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
The challenge is really bad to say, but it's not
too much out there.
But, yeah, or you get consciousthat you've been looking at the
screen for too long, but it isreally lovely to be working on
something there, just to stopfor a moment and look after it.
You can see how I answer thewater and see.
You know what's going on.
It is actually.
We're very blessed.
It's an amazing spot.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
So tell our listeners a bit more about the Coorong
and the Lower Lakes.
I know that you're ScienceManager for the Coorong, Lower
Lakes and Murray Mouth ResearchCentre.
Can you locate people as towhere that is?
Speaker 2 (04:12):
So essentially we're based in Galwa, which is about
an hour south of Adelaide, butit's right near the Murray Mouth
, so it's at the end of theMurray-Darling Basin.
So, yeah, we get all the waterand everything flowing down.
It comes through the Murray andthen into the lower lakes.
There's Lake Alexandrina, whichis the big one, and then Lake
(04:36):
Albert flows around through aseries of channels, past the
barrages to the mouth, but thenthere's also the Coorong, which
is a really interesting long,narrow hypersaline water body.
Yeah, so again, it's a reallyimportant area internationally.
It's a Ramsar site, but big atthe end of the basin.
It's a really significant andreally important area to be
(04:58):
looked after.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
So why did they put barrages in?
Because I know a lot of ourlisteners would have heard about
the Coorong and the MurrayMouth but they're probably
wondering well, why did we endup putting barrages across that?
So that you know, whilst itmight have done some benefit,
it's actually also done someharm to those ecosystems that
would have had just a long,regular flow of water going out.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Yeah, it was pretty well in response to upstream
extraction.
So the amount of water it doesvary a bit, but I always say
it's about 50% of what it wasnaturally comes down the river
now.
So this region has lost 50% ofits flow.
So the barrages were put inplace effectively to block the
estuary and the marineenvironment from the freshwater
(05:44):
lakes.
So it's a really hard barrierand, yeah, essentially it was
put in place to make sure thatthere was freshwater around on
the freshwater side.
So obviously, if you'rereducing the amount of flow that
comes down, there'd be a lotgreater push-up of the
freshwater.
So the thing is the barrageswere put across the tidal prism
so effectively they've cut theestuary off, which is obviously
(06:09):
a huge disruption.
But things have improved overrecent years in terms of water.
For the environment, thebarrages are a really good way
of managing the system now andthere's fish rays on the
barrages, so I guess ideallythey wouldn't be there, but
under the heavy regulatedMurray-Dunham Basin they sort of
(06:30):
need to be there at the moment.
But the thing is, with climatechange and sea level rise, which
will impact the region, theefficiency of the barrage is
under question.
So, into the future, what arethe implications.
There's already storm surgesthat have an impact.
So, again, it's a reallyimportant area and it's a really
(06:51):
difficult area, I guess, tomanage with so many different
things at play and differentdrivers occurring.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
So when you say they're a hard barrier, having
walked on them myself, I knowthat seals use them a lot as a
resting place and they're verymuch like hanging out where the
fish passage is, because they'renot stupid.
But yeah, we actually almostwent through.
It felt like a lock to get ourboat to go through the barrages
and and out.
So do they play around withwhen they're open and when
(07:20):
they're shut, or are they mostlyalways open?
Now, how does that work and whomakes those decisions?
Speaker 2 (07:27):
yeah.
So obviously water managers Isay water manage the barrages
with um, the departmentenvironment and mdba as well.
So again it's it's probablyreflective of what's occurring
throughout the basin that themandate is to maintain the lakes
at a fairly stable level, plusor minus I can't remember what
it is probably 10 to 20centimetres, so keep them quite
(07:48):
level.
But in recent times there'sbeen a lot more flexibility.
They now manage the lakes in away that promotes inundation of
sort of shallow areas overspring and then brings it back
down.
So there's a lot moremanagement and again that's
using the barrages as thatmanagement lever and then, so
water's coming into the region,you can do something in the
(08:09):
lakes.
Then there's certain ways ofgetting water down into the
Kurong.
So the Kurong it's a reverseestuary, so it's seawater at its
closest point to the mouth, but90 kilometres down it's saltier
than the ocean and it's aone-way.
There's a little bit of flowthat historically came in from
the southeast of South Australia, but predominantly the flows
(08:30):
have come from the Murray, soit's a one-way, narrow sort of
water body that's quitedifficult at times to get fresh
water down into.
It does happen, though.
The recent flooding has shownthat it gets quite fresh under
the right amount of flow comingdown and also, again, the right
management in different ways.
Wind is a big driver for thesystem, so playing with
(08:55):
operation at different times,under different flows and
different winds can have hugebenefits to certain parts of the
region.
Huge benefits to certain partsof the region.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
I have tried to camp actually on the Coorong and we
have a camper trailer that has atent that pops out the back,
but it was so windy we didn'tput the tent up.
So it's a really wild place andof course most people would
remember Storm Boy and thepelican Mr Percival down there.
It sounds like a fascinatingsystem and and I know many years
ago I was doing some work on aparticular plant called a rupia
(09:29):
and there was a.
They were talking about theCoorong being in almost a
tipping state, where it would gofrom, or I can't quite remember
whether it would be algaldominated to, is it the riparian
vegetation dominated?
Anyway, has that tipping pointbeen reached in some parts and
are we accepting that we've gotnew ecosystems emerging?
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Yeah, that's the real challenge about how to manage
anywhere, particularly in thecurrent, about what the desired
state is.
What do we go back to?
Do we go back to a naturalstate that we're trying to
achieve, or are we moving ourthinking along under the current
constraints of the system?
So yeah, root gear, again, is areally important plant in the
(10:12):
co-op and it fluctuates in termsof its abundance and comes back
at certain times and then, whenthe system is stressed, it sort
of drops out.
Yeah, it's really complicated.
Again, there's a lot at playthere and there's a lot of work
by a lot of people at the momentto try and, let's just say,
work out what state we want forthe Kural moving forward and
(10:34):
then, yeah, again, bringing inwhat the implications of climate
change for the region are, howthat sort of influences, how we
view the system and what we viewas a healthy, functioning um,
yeah, curon and region.
So yeah, again, it's quitecomplicated, quite complex it's
all those competing demands,isn't it not?
Speaker 1 (10:54):
I was interested when you were saying about 10 to 20
centimeters depth.
People are going what?
Like that's tiny, but uh, it'sactually vitally important for
water birds, isn't it?
That's why so um such acritical ecosystem for the
Ramsar migratory birds inparticular, I think.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Yeah, absolutely so.
The Coorong, the whole region,is relatively shallow but it has
mudflats through the Coorongwhich wading water birds.
That's where they get theirfood, that's their habitat.
So it's that thing and it'salways amazing.
We've got birds that come tothe Coorong and they fly off all
around the world and it'salways quite amazing that that
(11:32):
happens.
And so, yeah, having thosehabitats for water birds is
really, really important andthen managing the system for
that.
But then again, I know I'msaying complicated and complex
quite a bit, but there's otherdemands, other parts of the
region that need water and needwater at different times.
So there's obviously fish thatare moving through the system.
(11:55):
There's the freshwater side, asI mentioned, that needs water
at times.
So, again, there's a lot ofpeople that are working on that
balance and that trade-off andtrying to optimise when water's
sent to different spots underdifferent conditions to get the
best outcomes.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
So we've talked about plants and we've talked about
birds, but I know that yourfirst love is fish, and one of
the fish species or the type offish that have really been
impacted are the diadromous fish.
We had a talk with Wayne Costaabout freshwater eels a while
ago and he was telling us thesad story of watching them.
I think they put tags into themand they go out to sea and then
(12:33):
when one of the tags sort ofsuddenly, I think they can get a
temperature level on them andwhen it sort of gets a bit warm,
it's actually because it's beeneaten, which is a bit sad, but
what sort of diadromous fishhave you got going up and down
through the Coorong now that thefishways are there?
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Yeah, exactly.
So this is the only place inthe whole Murray Delivin that
has an estuary and has anopening to the sea.
So there's a huge range ofspecies that come in and again,
with the barrages, when theywere installed, there wasn't a
hell of a lot of thinking aboutthose environmental impacts, and
particularly the impacts onfish species.
So those dinodamous ones have arequirement to spend some time
(13:14):
in the freshwater and then headout to the estuary or the ocean
to spawn or complete their lifecycle.
So now with the fishways,there's been a whole range of
species that have recovered it'sprobably not the word, but have
improved.
So there's congoli, there'scommon galaxids, there's
lampreys, which are prettyinteresting species.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Ugliest fish in the world?
I reckon yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
When there was reports of their numbers had
increased through some surveysthat occurred, they had to put
out a press release saying oh,don't worry, they've got sucker.
That sucks on the fish, don'tworry, it's not harmful to your
children, you're allowed to goin the water, don't be scared,
all these kind of things.
But it's, yeah, just one ofthose amazing species that you
(14:00):
see.
But that fish, the connectionand then the ability for fish to
move through the system is oneof the big restoration outcomes
that has occurred in theMurray-Darling Basin.
In theory, fish can now travelfrom the ocean all the way up to
Lake Hugh and I think thisLarry, the Land Prey that people
track that has moved up toMildura at least.
(14:22):
So it's moving upstream intothe freshwater, having come in
from the ocean.
But it's also about theresident bream species and
mullet being able to movethrough the system and utilise
habitats that they need as well.
So connection is critical in asystem like this, but many
systems so would the Cooronghave had pulses, like we often
(14:46):
hear?
Speaker 1 (14:46):
like connectivity, I think most people sort of get,
but in some of the work in theenvironmental flows we know that
they're actively putting waterdown at particular times to give
a pulse to the river like thespring pulse.
Would that have continued downto the Coorong or would it be
dissipated because of the sizeof the area?
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Yes, it definitely would have and that does occur.
So I guess, yeah, it's quitehard to explain without a map.
There is a map behind us but Iwon't worry about using that.
But the water will come downinto the mouth and so some of
the water obviously goes out themouth, but it also then shuts
down to the coral.
So again, there's a wholetrade-off between getting water
(15:26):
down for the needs of the coralat certain times, but also
getting water out the mouth andtrying to maintain the mouth
open as much as possible butthen also providing attractive
flows for those diatomaceousfish you mentioned and then
again, on the freshwater side,ensuring that there's that
variation that some of thesmall-bodied fish and some of
the other species need topromote spawning in spring but
(15:47):
also allow recruitment oversummer and through the autumn
through that system.
So, yes, there's definitelypulses.
Again, it's a complexmanagement of the water, all
sort of on the back of there notbeing the water that there was
down to the system.
So it's sort of managing it asbest as possible, which is
challenging, with lots ofcompeting demands.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
It is.
I do remember being at an eventonce and I think they were
talking about environmentalwater going through Victoria, so
it must have been in Victoria.
And someone was saying an eventonce and I think they were
talking about environmentalwater going through Victoria, so
it must have been in Victoria,and someone was saying, oh, but
you haven't used all that waterup in Victoria.
It's going to get wasted if itgoes through to South Australia.
How often do you come by?
You know, hear that these days,like I know that you know for a
(16:30):
long time.
I mean, I've been in thisbusiness 25 years now.
So 25 years ago it was verymuch.
This is our water and we'regoing to keep it within our
state or jurisdiction as long aswe can, particularly if you're
maybe the upstream states andSouth Australia is always going.
We need more.
We need more.
What do you think in terms ofhow people's understanding has
gone of the concept of riverhealth, not necessarily
(16:52):
respecting jurisdictionalboundaries?
Speaker 2 (16:55):
I think it definitely has improved, but there's
definitely still that mindset of, yeah, any water coming past
your area and we're all quitelocalised in our thinking at
times, but we still, yeah,occasionally hear water going
out the mouth of the Bay River,but also the Murray is a waste.
Yeah, that's still somethingthat you hear quite often and it
(17:17):
doesn't sort of appreciatebenefits.
So, even for marine nearshorepippies or cockles, they need a
freshwater flow out the mouthfor their food source and then
obviously some of thoseestuarine species need
freshwater inputs into theirenvironment.
So, yeah, it still occurs.
I've lived and worked inMildura and Albury and back in
(17:40):
South Australia.
It's funny, I always liketelling this one about the
perspective.
So when you're in upstream,people go, you've got to get the
headwaters right and thebenefits flow downstream, and
then when you're down at thelower end of the system, it's
rivers die from the mouth up.
So it definitely is thatperspective where people are
viewing it.
We all do it.
We all definitely do it.
(18:01):
You view the world from yourunderstanding and your part of
the world.
But I think, yeah, it hasimproved, but I think it's still
a challenge that we all need tosort of consider, that we need
to, yeah, be thinking on abroader scale and seeing where
our part of the world fits inwith the rest of the system.
Definitely.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Yeah, I would be very guilty of saying we have to
start upstream, given that we'vebeen doing our big campaign on
the upper Murrubidji.
That gets less than 5% of itsflow, but I am fully aware of
where the water goes, so I'mfine about it going all the way
out to the Coorong.
It's a fabulous place.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Yeah, exactly Things.
If it's not one or the other,necessarily, you can have
multiple benefits of watercoming down the system at
different spots and flooding outthe floodplains and coming back
here and then making its waydown.
So, yeah, I think we'reprobably.
The broader thing is that we'reprobably all, as a collective,
going to be working moretogether, because we're better
(18:58):
together than some of thethreats that are facing rivers
and facing the Murray-Darlingand things that we need to
collectively work togetheracross multiple regions.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
I totally agree and that sort of brings us nicely or
not nicely to the state ofnative fish in the basin.
So I know you've done a lot ofwork on this and I was kind of
wondering.
Actually, at a recentpresentation you gave, you
actually went through anddescribed the differences
between terms like threatened,vulnerable, endangered and
(19:29):
critically endangered.
I think it might be reallyuseful for people to hear and
also where our freshwater fishspecies are sitting in terms of
those categories.
Are you able to be reallyuseful for people to hear and
also where our freshwater fishspecies are sitting in terms of
those categories?
Are you able to run throughthose for us?
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Yeah, absolutely, and I guess, like before, I've done
a lot of conservationassessments in recent times, but
before that I was assigned ayear.
Oh, critically endangered,endangered what do these terms
mean?
And they are easy to change attimes and there's all sorts of
different uses.
So each species when it'sgetting assessed it's through
the International Union forConservation of Nature, iecn,
(20:03):
which some of your listenerswould have heard is sort of the
gold standard for assessing thestatus of species, and then
that's adopted by EPC, sort ofconsistent more or less.
So you go through to assess thespecies.
There's almost 30 differentsteps involved and that's once
you've made the, once you'vedrafted the assessment.
(20:26):
There's 30 steps of engagement,public consultation, all these
kind of different processes toget to that end point of a
listed species.
So it's a long process.
There's five different criteriathat relate to population
declines, the rate of decline,the range of the species and
different threats.
But essentially, I guess ifyou're looking at critically
(20:47):
endangered, you're reallylooking at an extremely high
risk of the species becomingextinct in the wild.
So it might be akin to a 50chance of survival or extinction
, I should say, in the next 10years.
So yeah, I think it's puttingthose kind of numbers to it I
think really crystallizes it inyour mind that hey, we're
(21:08):
dealing with something that'sgot a 50 chance of not being
around in in the wild.
So this isn't just onepopulation in one area, this is
the whole species.
So when you do hear of acritically endangered species,
that's sort of the realm you'redealing with and then it
obviously goes down in level ofrisk.
In terms of endangered is about20% in the next 20 years still
(21:31):
under threat.
That species has probably gotmore population so it's got
threats that aren't justoperating on the whole range
where a critically endangeredspecies might be in a relatively
restricted range and have asingle fire come through and
place the whole species underthreat, whereas an endangered
has a little bit more resilience, a bit more capacity to deal
(21:53):
with various threats and thenobviously vulnerable is a lower
threshold.
But it still means the speciesneeds our attention, it needs
some consideration.
It's probably a 10% chance inthe next 100 years of it going
extinct.
So again, really critical to befocusing on those species.
But also, I guess every speciesin some ways needs our
(22:19):
attention really, and working onone species doesn't benefit for
other species, so there's afair bit in that as well, just
to make sure that a lot of thefocus is on threatened species.
When there is focus and we cantalk about how much focus there
is on threatened species, butagain we need to be conserving
ecosystems, conserving habitatwithin a region that benefits
(22:42):
threatened species but alsobenefits other species.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
So threatened is the sort of start.
Then you go vulnerable, thenendangered and then critically
endangered.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Yeah, so threatened is just the catch-all to say
that it's in one of those threatcategories I should mention.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
Oh, no, that's absolutely fine, because you
know I'm in this all the time,but I never actually had that
explained.
So thank you for that.
That's very useful.
So can you tell me then ormaybe I don't want to know, but
no, I do want to know where aresome of our it's mainly
freshwater fish that you'velooked at, I think, that are
critically endangered?
Do?
Speaker 2 (23:19):
we have many in that category, yeah, so getting back
to the second part of yourquestion, so a colleague, Mark
Littermans, who I think has beenon the podcast and some of your
listeners will know, led anIECA assessment of all
Australian freshwater fish andit showed that 37% are
threatened with extinction.
So they're in one of thosevulnerable, critically
(23:40):
endangered categories.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
So 37% Wow.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
Yeah, across Australia, and so a lot of the
trends there's a range ofgalactic species that occur in
the high country occur throughVictoria.
But what that showed was thatthere are hot spots of
threatened species and I guessyou can probably understand some
of those more developed areaswhere there's more people having
(24:06):
a lot more threats.
But there was also a threatenedspecies in the Kimberley across
northern Australia, which issort of not necessarily what
you'd necessarily or what you'dthink.
You'd think, well, there'srelatively a fair bit of water
there.
There hasn't been quite thedevelopment, but I guess it
highlighted that there'sthreatened species all across
Australia in terms of freshwaterfish and we really again need
(24:28):
to be considering them either ina recovery sense or in a sense
that there hasn't been thedevelopment.
We need to be quite carefulabout how we go about if we are
to develop certain areas, how wego about that and how we
consider the species that arepresent there.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
So it sounds like it's not just flow.
What else is impacting on thesespecies?
Speaker 2 (24:50):
A lot of things.
It is a lot of flow, definitely, I should say, but it's also
water extraction.
So a number of the small-bodiedspecies particularly use static
or wetland habitat.
So a lot of our wetlands havereceived less water.
Some have received permanentwater and an in-date the whole
time, whereas others don't havethe water regime they once had.
(25:12):
So that's a big issue.
This associated habitatdestruction they used to take
out water, debris and snags fromrivers, which is taking out
habitat.
Alien species is a big one.
It's fair to say that trout,redfin and carp as well are
major impacts to our species.
(25:33):
But I guess and this sort ofgets to the point about us all
working together with climatechange is sort of the looming
not looming coming is alreadyhaving influence threat to a lot
of these species, freshwaterspecies that we have in
Australia.
So yeah, there's going to beprofound changes to water regime
(25:54):
, but also the frequency ofdroughts and in some areas again
down this way, sea level risewill potentially have a huge
implication on freshwaterhabitats in the current Lowell
Lakes and Murray Mouth region.
So huge threats.
And obviously we've seenbushfires, we've seen major
floods and the concern is thatwe've got species that are
stressed under regulated systems, seen major floods, and the
(26:14):
concern is that we've gotspecies that are stressed under
regulated systems and then theyhave these extreme disturbance
events if it's a drought or ifit's a bushfire, and they come
in more frequently.
It's the big concern that theseevents might have been occurring
in the past, but less frequent,but now you've got them and
your listeners are probablyaware of.
(26:36):
We've had a bushfire, thenwe've had a drought, then we're
having this and that, but theyseem to be the space between
those events is becoming shorterand the magnitude of the events
is becoming more extreme.
So that's a real concern and areal consideration about how
we're going about managingthreatened species.
So you can do a lot of good inthe good years when there's
(26:58):
habitat, when there's water, butthen you're having these
extreme events that might undo alot of that good work, or
you've got to manage for andyou've got to work out
strategies to rescue species ordo a whole range of things, get
areas that you can protect, allthis kind of thing.
So, yeah, yeah, that's a lot ofthreats to deal with for a lot
(27:19):
of these species.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
And, in your view, is it about accepting that we're
going to lose some species whomight have a particular sort of
habitat that's not found anymore, that it would be very hard for
us to create, so that we lookafter one species, or, as you
were saying, do we go?
Well, we know that healthyrivers will benefit a lot, so
(27:41):
let's just focus on gettingriparian veg in, or is it a mix
of different strategies, becauseit's going to be quite
difficult to deliver such afairly bleak message for people
around 37% of species.
Where do you think that lies?
Or is it just a big combination?
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Yeah, yeah, I guess it's.
Also I've worked a lot on spinycrayfish and they're even more
threatening.
There's turtle threatening.
So there's a lot of otherfreshwater species that have
been neglected and now we're ina place where we're sort of
understanding their status.
But it's going to bechallenging because, having
worked that have been neglectedand now we're in a place where
we're sort of understandingtheir status.
But it's going to bechallenging because, having
(28:20):
worked on a number of species,there's one yarra-fing perch
that you feel obligated to beprotecting, which was impacted
during the millennium droughtdown here in the Lower Lakes.
Like you think everyone'sworking on different, you think
they've all got to be saved.
I think that's got to be thestarting point that we're not
going to accept the loss ofcertain species but moving
(28:43):
forward.
Maybe it does have to be aprioritisation where we just
accept which is reallychallenging in your mind and
really difficult, because you dobecome like you're the same for
what you work on the upper VGNand all the things you feel
personally responsible at timesfor the fight.
So the thing that you're mostpassionate about and to accept
that, okay, we're only going toprioritize certain number of
(29:04):
species, is really challenging.
I don't.
Yeah, I don't think we're quitethere yet, um, or need to be
quite there yet, but I think,yeah, we've.
But I guess we need to beconsidering if we're not
prepared to put the resources inthen at a national level or at
different levels, we need toaccept that, which is, again,
it's really daunting, it'sreally confronting to deal with
(29:26):
as an issue.
But, yeah, hopefully we're notthere yet and we can sort of
turn things around before it'stoo late.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
I think hope is essential and I've often asked
people on this podcast you know,what keeps your hope alive?
What is it for you?
What keeps your hope going?
Your optimism, yeah, it's agood question.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
I guess you go through cycles, so you look at
the bigger picture and go, well,geez, there's a lot of issues
confronting you and then you getdown into the day-to-day or the
actual doing and it's a lot ofthe team effort.
So a lot of these species I'veworked on and a lot of
conservation success.
(30:09):
It's a team effort.
So it's passionate people, it'smanagers, it's scientists, it's
everyone local, community,first Nations, groups, all
involved.
And I guess that's where themotivation comes from and that's
where the hope comes from thatyou can see like-minded people
that are just as passionateabout preserving something that
99% of the people in Australiadon't even know exists.
(30:31):
So I guess that's where thehope comes from.
But yeah, again, it is thatsort of cycle in your head where
you start thinking, geez, theimpact threats are extreme and
how do we deal with all of themfor all of these species?
And then you again go down tothe level of getting involved
and doing actions and workingwith lots of good, passionate
(30:51):
people, and that sort ofprovides you with hope.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Yeah, I think you're absolutely right.
I know that someone at the teamhere was saying that they'd
woken up early in the morningand you know they were
reflecting on hearing about thenumber of extinctions and just
feeling really saddened andupset by it, but that when you
sort of get with your team andyou know that you're doing the
very best you can as anindividual trying to affect
(31:16):
change, that you can feel thatyou know you are going to get
somewhere.
And I know the presentationthat you gave to us all at the
Stream Management Conference.
You actually used the phraseit's now a conscious decision
not to act and I was wonderingif you can expand a bit on what
you meant by that.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Yeah, absolutely, and I guess what I meant by that
was that we now have theinformation.
So, whereas we might have beenflying blind with a lot of
species so, in terms offreshwater fish, there was 33
listed species in Australia in2019.
As of 2024, there's now 63.
And for the crayfish, there wasthree listed in 2019 and this
(31:53):
is 2024.
There's now 63.
And for the crayfish, there wasthree listed in 2019 and now
there's 26.
So we have a lot.
We have the knowledge of thestatus of a lot of these species
.
We have a knowledge of what thethreats are, what the actions
are required, what we need to do, and then there's been some
work that's looked at how muchit does cost to recover
threatened species.
So we have some of thatinformation and it's not an
(32:15):
astronomical amount.
I think during the conference Iequated it to how much
Australians it's in the billions, but how much Australians spend
on pet care and vet bills.
So it's not an amount that'soff the chart.
So we have the knowledge, wehave insight about what needs to
be done.
There is still the challengesthat are perhaps out of our
(32:37):
control about what we do withsome of the threatening
processes.
But yeah, it's definitely achoice now that we're making as
a society, as a country, to say,well, we're not prepared to put
the resources in for some ofthese threatened species, for
whatever reason.
But on the flip side, we dohave that opportunity now and I
guess that's where it's wherethe hope still lies that we do
(32:58):
have that information.
We do have a lot of challenges,yes, but we've got the
information.
We've got lots of passionatepeople that have been involved
and, yeah, we are at a time thatwe can make a difference.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Yeah, it was fascinating.
Can you remember the figurethat you had for the expenditure
on pets?
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Yeah, it was $33 billion.
$33 billion, that's right.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
And so for listeners out there, that's the grooming,
that's the food, that's the vets, that's the clothes if you
dress your dogs up or your catsup.
But I think what that actuallyshows more is humans connection
to animals and how much we valuethat connection.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Somehow we need to try and widen the connection so
that people in cities or peoplewho just don't know anything
about these little fish start tocare yeah, and that promotion
is is a huge thing and like ifpeople are living their
day-to-day life and whateverthey're doing, they've got kids
that go to get to school andsport and all these kind of
things.
It's like there's otherpriorities, but it is, yeah, it
(34:00):
is.
A big part of our roles in thisfield is to promote as well we
can with different people,promote the plight and raise
awareness about things that theydon't know about and they
haven't had an interest in.
But you can definitely getpeople hooked on an unusual
species or a little thing thatlooks pretty nondescript.
(34:22):
You can definitely getdifferent groups passionate and
interested about them,absolutely.
So, yeah, we've made it anongoing challenge to raise
awareness of these species,because it's really critical to
raise that profile and getpeople thinking in a way that
they're prepared to make adifference.
And if it's voting for peoplethat have got policies that are
(34:44):
related to conservation, thenthat's good.
But then that filters down toactual resources for actions on
the ground.
Can you tell us I?
Then that filters down toactual resources for actions on
the ground.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
Can you tell us?
I know that you have actuallyrescued a little fish, a few
little fish, because it was theMurray hardyhead Can you tell us
about that project, Becausethat's quite a personal one for
you?
You actually created habitatfor that little fish, didn't you
?
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Yeah, exactly so the number of those small body fish
that I've worked on.
Again, it's a collective effortand I've been fortunate to be
involved with some reallypassionate people.
But the Murray hardyhead is onethat occurs.
It's a salt-tolerant species,occurs throughout the lower
lakes but also in off-channelwetland habitats along the
(35:28):
southern Murray-Darling Basin.
And again, as I talked about,with the loss of wetland
habitats in Australia,particularly the Murray-Darling
Basin, a lot of their habitatsdisappear and so now we're
finding backup habitats that aresaline, saline disposal basins,
(35:49):
all these kind of things, andthe species thrive.
So in the local region we'vegot a network of backup
populations for that species buta number of other ones that in
farm dams.
But also one of the hugesuccesses that those built
beyond wetlands just out ofVictor Harbor, not too far from
where I am in Goolwa here.
It's a development, it's aneco-friendly development and the
(36:11):
developer is someone out ofSteve Wright.
It looks like he's out of anOut of Africa movie film, but
he's just so passionate aboutconservation and he's given over
.
I'm not quite sure how muchland it actually is, but there's
eight to ten ponds where we'vegot Murray hardy and we've got
different threatened species.
It's not for profit groupsdriving that with the developer
(36:35):
and it's such a great success.
It's providing backuppopulations that then can be
used to release into the wild.
So for Murray, hardyhead,during the millennium drought
they were lost from Lake Albertand we've been able to release
over 30,000 fish back into thewild and the old one has been
detected in Lake Albert andwe've been able to release over
30,000 fish back into the wildand they have.
The old one has been detectedum in Lake Albert.
(36:56):
So it's having success.
But again, it's thatcollaboration, that partnership
between different groups, notgroups that you'd always think
would be working together, butit works so well in that
instance.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
Never underestimate the power of introducing someone
to a little fish, and I, I knowthat we had a.
We were looking after apopulation of Southern Pygmy
perch, trying to reintroducethem to a little Creek in New
South Wales, and we were havinga, you know, a field day, and so
we caught a few of the of theperch and we thought, oh dear,
it would be really good to showthis in some sort of a glass
container.
So the landholder nipped home,bought home a glass container
(37:30):
really nice looking glass oneactually and went down to the
local RSL club, had it up aseveryone could see.
Anyway, his wife came and saidwhat's that fish doing in that
wedding gift that we got given?
But it looked great.
And you know there was lots ofjokes about.
You know you're not going toget much of a feed from a fish
(37:50):
that's only about 10 centimetreslong, but they started to.
You know the landholdersstarted to say, oh, I might have
seen one of those.
So it's getting that engagement, isn't it?
And a bit of humour and fun.
That really connects people.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Yeah, and that's probably another big thing in
terms of what's kept me going isthe humour side of things.
So, as we've discussed, it canbe quite bleak and daunting what
we're dealing with.
But, yeah, having good peoplethat you're dealing with but
also having some humour, I think, doesn't mean that you're not
as interested or not aspassionate, but it just breaks
(38:26):
it up and makes people connectwith it.
It's quite good.
It's a huge part of what I liketo do.
My days don't work.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
That's brilliant, really good.
Tell me a little bit about thework that you're doing now then,
obviously taking all thiswealth of knowledge that you've
had from working in differentparts of the basin.
I'm intrigued to know howyou're now working with First
Nations in the Coorong and LowerLakes region, because I know
that's a really big focus foryou.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
How's that work going ?
Yeah, so I'll just take you astep back.
So at the Coorong and LowerLakes Marine Mouth Research
Centre, it came about fromcommunity advocacy saying we
need a local research centre inthe region.
There's been quite a lot ofresearch in this region but they
wanted a local presence.
And then people do that all thetime and nothing comes of it.
(39:14):
But actually something came ofthis which was a bit remarkable.
So then the research centrestarted last July and it's
pretty well got the because ofhow the origins got a mandate to
let community but also FirstNations, as you mentioned, drive
the research agenda.
So it's not research comingdown from the top saying this is
(39:34):
what you're going to work on.
It's dealing with connectingwith different community members
, different community groups andFirst Nations in Naranjeri here
, but also First Nations in theSouth East, to decide what
research the research centreundertakes, and spoken with
thousands of people to getpriorities, but also managers as
(39:56):
well.
So it hasn't just beencommunity and First Nations, and
it's remarkable that thealigning of priorities so, like
you might think, communitypeople have a completely
different perspective, firstNations have a different
perspective, managers have adifferent perspective, but a lot
of it has aligned.
So it's been really.
Yeah, it's been a really quickprocess and really enjoyable to
(40:17):
bring people together and therehas been the old barf line idea
that sort of hasn't got legs.
But generally, yeah, it's aboutlooking after the region, it's
about water, it's about keybiodiversity across the region.
So in terms of First Nations,there's been lots of work down
(40:37):
here with the Narragerie aboutgetting on country and that's a
huge thing.
So we're trying to build onthat with getting First Nations
embedded in research.
So obviously there's prioritiesbut also having opportunities
to be involved.
So some of the projects aredealing with extensions.
There's been some work on thefreshwater soak.
So along the coastal dunes, thebarrier between the ocean and
(41:00):
the Coorong, there's freshwatersoak which can be about 300 EC.
So you've got the ocean thereat 50,000 EC, you've got the
Coorong, which could be aspecialty of that, and you've
got this beautiful fresh waterin the sand dunes effectively.
So hugely culturally importantbut also from an ecological
sense.
So there's been some workthrough the department
(41:20):
environment with differentNgarangjeri, different sort of
First Nations groups, and thenwe are adding to that with a
research component that'slooking at the water balance for
those stoats but also thevulnerability to climate change,
and a big part of that will beextending work to get First
Nations out of the country.
(41:41):
So it's, you know, like everyoneis recognising the importance
of including local First Nationsgroups and there are challenges
, like there's been lots of lossof knowledge through cultural
knowledge, through committees,through, obviously, all the
impacts that have occurred.
So it's about capacity building.
(42:01):
It's about raising awarenessand also providing a platform, a
safe platform, for FirstNations to be involved.
So we've got a First Nationsengagement officer, kyla
McHughes, that's reallyconnected across the region and
bringing in lots of differentFirst Nations perspectives.
It's as simple as language.
So bringing in language intoFirst Nations language into the
(42:24):
research, but also, as I said,getting a safe, comfortable
platform for First Nations to beinvolved.
That it's not just, hey, we'redoing this, give us your
thoughts, give us yourperspectives, but actually
taking it back to say what areyour priorities.
And then, how do you want to beengaged into work, in this case
(42:45):
of research, because it can bereally daunting for everyone.
Really, research has somewhatof a sting with it.
It's this really intellectual,highbrow thing and people yeah,
their knowledge is not worthy tobe incorporated.
So we're trying to break downthat with community as well,
that everyone's sort of equaland everyone's views are
(43:07):
considered the same.
So, yeah, that's sort of wherewe're trying to go with the
research centre and make it abit more of a connection with
community and First Nations.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
I think that's you know.
In my experience that's thebest place to start is to
actually go and look atsomething that someone knows
something about, in this casethe freshwater soak, and
understand you know how does itwork.
Then we want to understand thescience underpinning how that
water is coming up through there, whether it's groundwater,
whether it's filtered, whateverit might be from the sea.
But yeah, I totally agree withyou and I know I do get a bit
(43:41):
frustrated when we keep invitingFirst Nations and community
groups into meeting rooms inoffice blocks that are
completely disconnected fromwhat you're actually trying to
achieve.
You get so much more done whenyou're on country or you're just
looking at something that youall care about.
You're much more likely toactually get something done.
(44:02):
So I'm delighted to hear thatthat's the sort of approach and
I can see on the banner behindyou.
You've got First Nations,community Knowledge and then, in
big letters, I impact.
So I'll be keen to see how thatgoes.
I know you're only juststarting out.
Speaker 2 (44:15):
Yeah, that's right and yeah, we are just starting
it.
So we're definitely trying tolive what we're preaching and
we've got our research projectskicking off and there's lots of
opportunity for involvement.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
But, yeah, we're passionate about it, so we're
hoping to achieve a lot that'sgreat, and for any listeners who
are down in gore, where you areable to drop into the research
center and say, hi, they've gotan amazing model there that I've
already played with, where it'sjust super you can move sand.
Actually, it's fine glass,isn't it?
and it you can move it aroundand you can do the shapes and
(44:50):
see where the water moves, andit's very, very cool.
So, look, we're coming to anend of this talk, but I know I'm
going to be getting in touchwith you again because I want to
find out more about your doing.
But I wanted to actually askyou three questions.
Actually, it's going to be four, because I want to know do you
have a favourite freshwater fishspecies?
(45:11):
Or it could be diadromous,given that you're down the end
there- yes, I do.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
They're all my favourites, but my favourite is
probably it's not a fish, it's acrayfish.
So the Murray crayfish, whichI've done a lot of work on, and
my partner, who's an ecologistas well, has done a lot of work
on Sylvia yeah, it's the secondlargest freshwater crayfish in
the world.
If your listeners have everseen one, they're pretty
(45:38):
impressive, pretty historicbeast.
That's probably my favouritefreshwater animal.
Lovely, they're all myfavourites.
They're like children you can'tpick a favourite.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
It's difficult, isn't it, listeners?
We will put a picture of aMurray crayfish with the show
notes there, so you can see thatyou've got Nick's favourite one
there, but they're all hisfavourites.
We'll make that clear as well.
What about a favourite body ofwater, or river or waterway?
Speaker 2 (46:05):
Again, they're all my favourites.
I do have a favourite, butobviously down here, as you say,
being connected to the water isimpressive.
So the Lower Lakes, the Curraland the Murray-Mount Estuary.
I was born in Hilston, newSouth Wales, so I've got a soft
spot for the Lachlan, but itwould be the Murray River, so
I've spent on crayfish surveysparticularly a lot of time,
(46:29):
often two weeks a year on theMurray during winter, which is a
beautiful time.
So all the way from the highcountry down to to the South
Australia.
So it's, yeah, it's amazing.
I love the Murray so much.
It's got beautiful spots thereand if you're out and about and
you sort of have a moment torelax, it's so peaceful, um,
then you can forget all thechallenges, all the issues that
(46:52):
are going on when you're sittingby a body of water, as you, um,
as you sort of mentioned in theintro.
Um, but yeah, probably theMurray, but they're all my
favourite, yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:02):
So I think you've answered my next question, which
is where you feel mostconnected, and I know I'm the
same.
I feel most connected when I'mnext to water.
Is that, is that right, or am Imaking an assumption there?
Speaker 2 (47:13):
Yeah, no, definitely yeah, and next by the coast as
well now, but yeah, I still feelmore of a connection by fresh
water I often need to.
Wherever I am or whatever it is, I need to know that there's
some water nearby for somereason, if you're not going to
visit it or do anything.
But yeah, it definitely has acalming influence and yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:37):
I agree, totally agree, and my last question is
what drives you to do what youdo?
Speaker 2 (47:44):
Yeah, I guess it's a lot of the things that we talked
about, but it is an obligationin some senses that there's
times when you felt yourself anda small group of people are the
only ones who are responsiblefor this species.
And obviously that'ssimplifying it a bit.
But with some of the speciesthat were lost from the lower
(48:05):
lakes and you've got backuppopulations and you sort of feel
like you're not working onthese species.
So that is is probably whatdrives you.
But it's also yeah, it's, it'sas you mentioned it's about
doing, doing the best you can.
All these you know, sort ofchallenging issues we're facing.
But if you can put your head onthe pillow each time and feel
(48:26):
that you've done your best andtried to achieve things and and
I guess there has been successesso you talked about the little
southern bimby perch.
They were lost during themillennium drought around the
lower lakes and throughreintroductions, have recovered,
so there has been success so Ithink that that also drives you
along, that you can sort of seethat what you're doing can have
(48:49):
a benefit at times.
So it's not all beating yourhead against the wall.
There are successes andoutcomes that are positive.
So those sort of yeah, thosethree are probably driving me.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
Yeah, and look, I think so many of the people I
talk to it's a similar themethat you know.
You sort of get to a pointwhere you go, well, look, I can,
I'll just do the very best Ican, and then, as you say, you
put your head on the pillow atthe end of the night and say,
okay, I've done what I can do,I'll rest now and tomorrow's
another day, yeah.
So, thank you so much, nick.
(49:21):
My pleasure and for listeners,we'll put some links up for you
that will take you to the CLEM,to the Coorong Lower Lakes,
murray Mouth Research Centre, ifyou want to go and have a look
at that, and we'll also put afew photos up.
Nick did a great shout out forWorld Rivers Day, which has
happened just recently, so we'llput some of those photos there
(49:41):
for you as well.
So until next time, I hope youtravel well and we'll talk again
soon.
Bye for now.
I love them all.
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