October 19, 2025 • 59 mins
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In this episode of Take Me to the River, Dr. Siwan Lovett sits down with renowned fluvial geomorphologist Professor Kirstie Fryirs—co-developer of the globally adopted River Styles Framework—to explore how rivers are shaped, damaged, and healed.
This jam-packed episode breaks down the science of river restoration through the lens of fluvial geomorphology. But what is geomorphology? As Kirstie explains, it’s all about understanding how rivers take shape — how water, mud, plants, and even animals like carp and platypus help form the way a river looks and behaves.
To make sense of this, Kirstie co-developed the River Styles Framework, a way of identifying different types of rivers, understanding their condition, and working out how they might recover. It’s now used all over the world to help river managers speak the same language when deciding how to care for waterways.
Kirstie challenges conventional thinking about river restoration, emphasising that knowing when NOT to intervene is just as important as knowing when to act. Through the concept of "recovery potential," she explains how each river must be treated individually with realistic expectations. In a world where rivers cannot return to pre-colonisation conditions, she shows us how to let rivers self-heal when possible.
A pioneer for women in the waterway industry, Kirsty became the second female professor of geomorphology in Australia. She shares her remarkable career journey from studying post-colonisation river disturbance in the Bega catchment to researching heavy metal contamination in Antarctica where she experienced true silence. She discusses her innovative teaching approaches and the advice that shaped her leadership style.
From icy Antarctic stations to the wild beauty of Tasmania's Franklin River, Kirstie's passion for rivers is infectious and you can hear it in every moment of this conversation. Whether you're a conservationist, scientist, or simply someone who loves waterways, this episode offers invaluable insight into river recovery — and the experience of being a pioneering woman in environmental science.
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Take Me to the River is an Australian River Restoration Centre podcast production, hosted by Dr. Siwan Lovett and produced by Chris Walsh and Jimmy Hooper, with support from the rest of the ARRC Team. ✨
If you'd like to support the Australian River Restoration Centre and our work restoring rivers and supporting others to do the same, visit our shop for some of the best gift ideas for nature-lovers. You can also make a tax-deductible direct donation to help support our the health and resilience of our rivers 🌱
We acknowledge and honour Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples as the Traditional Custodians of the country on which we work, learn, and live. We respect and learn from Elders past, present and emerging, valuing their knowledge, insights and connections to the waterways we love and care for. 🖤💛...
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Hello friends, it's Shuan here.
(00:01):
Thank you so much for followingalong our journey and for your
love of rivers.
We've been doing some reallyexciting things, from saving
native fish, raising awarenessabout rivers that aren't getting
enough to drink, and restoringthe places we all love.
Your support truly means theworld to us.
One of the best ways you canhelp is by subscribing to our
newsletter and following us onsocial media to keep up with
what's next.
(00:22):
Happy listening.
SPEAKER_04 (00:23):
Have you ever heard silence?
And just think about that for 30seconds.
Right?
People go, oh yes, I've I'veheard silence.
And you go, well, think aboutthat, right?
In our everyday lives, you know,we've got leaves rustling, we've
got cockatoos and even the humof electricity, right?
When you really, really thinkabout it, right?
(00:44):
So we're surrounded by noise allthe time.
You know, and even when we'reout there on the river, you
know, you've got the water andyou've so there's nowhere that's
really silent.
And at works, I think I cangenuinely say I heard silence.
And I just sat there and I went,Oh wow, this is complete and
utter silence.
And almost to the point whereyou can hear your heart beating
(01:05):
and your ears just ringing.
Wow.
And you go, Wow, that's reallycool.
Yeah.
And so you sort of like youdon't realise until you're in
that sort of place, you know,how much noise there is in our
environment.
And and you can just feelyourself sort of like just calm
right down.
And your brain just sort oflike, you know, instead of being
(01:26):
on call all the time and yourbrain going, you just go, I can
just sit here for 15 minutes,completely isolating.
SPEAKER_06 (01:34):
Completely, you know, no one's no one within Ku
We.
SPEAKER_00 (01:51):
Hello and welcome to Take Me to the River, sharing
stories and inspiring hope withextraordinary people who care
for our rivers.
I'm your host, Dr.
Shuann Lovett.
Today I'm talking to a goodfriend of mine, Professor Kirsty
Friars.
Kirstie is a renowned expert influvial geomorphology and river
management, and in thisconversation she shares her
insights on the structure andfunction of rivers, how they
(02:12):
adjust and evolve, and how wecan best use geomorphology in
river conservation, recovery andrehabilitation.
Kirsty is probably best known asthe co-developer of the River
Styles Framework, a geomorphicapproach for analysing rivers
that has been adopted in manyareas across six continents.
Kirstie's research on naturalflood management won an award at
last year's Australian StreamManagement Conference for Best
(02:34):
Paper.
Kirstie has extensive domesticand international collaborations
in both academia and industry,and she's worked on many river
science and management projectsas part of multidisciplinary
teams.
She has also conducted researchin Antarctica on heavy metal
contamination at Casey andWilkes stations and has
co-written and co-edited severalbooks on geomorphology and river
(02:55):
management.
She holds several research,teaching and postgraduate
supervision awards, includingthe International Gordon Warwick
Medal for Excellence inResearch, and she's a certified
environmental practitioner ingeomorphology.
She's also just a really niceperson, and I'm excited to dive
into her work and learn moreabout the River Styles Framework
and her career in rivermanagement.
(03:16):
Welcome Kirsty to my backyard.
You may hear a few plainslisteners, uh possibly a
cockatoo and my dog Pippasnoring.
But it's lovely to be here withyou.
How about you let our listenersknow a little bit about yourself
and how you've come to loverivers?
SPEAKER_04 (03:33):
Well, thank you firstly for having me in your
backyard.
It's a wonderful place to be.
The garden has grown a lot sinceI was here last time.
But I guess like most people whoare river lovers, you know, it
starts in childhood really,doesn't it?
And I'm one of a family of fourchildren.
I've got three brothers, and allof our childhood was sort of
(03:54):
spent in the outdoors.
We did a lot of bushwalking inthe Blue Mountains where my
grandma lived, and all mycousins uh lived in Tasmania.
So we do big long road trips andwe do lots of hiking and camping
as as kids, and I guess that'swhere my connection with with
water and rivers really startedwas in the great outdoors,
(04:15):
playing in the mud and andplaying in water.
So um yeah, when I was when Iwas at school, um I was quite
good at at science and geographyand and art.
Um and so I had a real passionfor for the outdoors and for for
environmental sort of issues.
And this was sort of in the 80sand 90s, um, so things like you
(04:39):
know, Marbo and things likeclimate change were becoming
more sort of mainstream.
And so when I left school, umall I wanted to do was
environmental impact assessmentbecause that was the sort of the
thing at the time.
And so I went to uni atMacquarie University to do my
undergraduate, and um I wentstraight into environmental
(04:59):
science and environmentalmanagement.
It was called physical geographyat that time.
SPEAKER_00 (05:04):
I did geography and I loved it at school, and you
very rarely hear about it now.
SPEAKER_04 (05:08):
No, that's right.
And you know, it back then itwas it was a mix of physical
geography and human geography.
And nowadays we've sort ofseparated them out, which is a
real shame because they you knowthey interact, and of course,
you know, the environment andhumans and so on is a really
important sort of uh area thatthat you know if we're gonna get
stuff done on the ground, thenwe need people to be working in
(05:30):
nature and the environment.
So anyway, at uni, um that's allI wanted to do was geography.
Um but then I got to second yearand there was this weird course
in the handbook ongeomorphology.
And um so I thought, oh yeah,that sounds interesting, you
know, it's about landscapes andand and different, you know,
coasts and rivers and mountainsand glaciers and all that
(05:51):
exciting stuff.
I thought, oh yeah, I'll sign upfor that.
Anyway, I guess that wasprobably, you know, that was it.
That was that that sort of setme up.
I was hooked from there.
So I had some really fantasticlecturers then, you know,
Professor Gary Briley um thereand and Trish Fanning.
Um so Macquarie had a reallygood geomorphology sort of area
that a lot of us studied in.
(06:12):
And so um, yeah, I followed onin in geomorphology, the
environmental impact assessmentsort of put aside, and um I
studied geomorphology, I did myhonours degree um down in the
bee catchment onpost-colonisation river
disturbance.
Um and then after that I didn'tget the greatest grade in my
(06:33):
honours, so I wasn't competitivefor a PhD scholarship.
So I was appointed by Gary atthat time on Alertec project.
Oh my goodness.
Yeah, which you were the programdirector for.
And so I worked as a researchofficer for three years on that
on that project, and that's whenRiver Strayles was born.
(06:55):
And so you'll probably rememberthat.
I was just very young at thattime, right?
So this is in the late 1990s,early 2000s.
And so I guess that really sortof set up, you know, the River
Strails framework and and so on,which has now been going for 25
years.
SPEAKER_00 (07:12):
Wow, wow.
So so listeners, that um weirdsort of noise that uh Kirsty
made, Lerdic, actually standsfor Land and Water Resources.
Oh, thank you, Cockatoo.
Land and Water ResourcesResearch and Development
Corporation.
Thanks again.
And uh I worked there for about15 years and had the pleasure
of, as Kirsty just said, ofmeeting Kirsty when she was
(07:33):
working on the River Stylesframework with Gary.
And I I was looking at your facejust lighting up when you were
talking about having great umpeople actually teaching you.
Gary just had this charismaabout him, doesn't he?
Probably still does.
He's in Auckland now, I believe.
But he was able to, you know,share his enthusiasm with you
about the topic.
It makes such a difference,doesn't it?
SPEAKER_04 (07:54):
Absolutely, yeah.
And so, you know, um I rememberGary at that time, you know, he
used to wear bandanas and andclogs, and so the floors in the
lecture theatre were all tiled,and so you could hear this as
you walk into the lecturetheatre, and and you know, we'd
all just sort of look at look athim and go, Who is this?
(08:15):
You know, what's going on here?
But yeah, I mean, you know,geomorphology more than anything
else is really aboutstorytelling.
SPEAKER_00 (08:22):
As a storyteller myself, Kirsty, I love hearing
you describing geomorphology asa telling of stories.
And it's fascinating that youwere saying your honours was on
the Beager River, because thatwas one of the first rivers I
looked at when I started at Landand Water Resources RD
Corporation.
Uh, and it had huge issues withsand slugs at the time.
So, can you explain to thelisteners how geomorphology
(08:45):
helps you understand what you'relooking at when you look into a
river and you see something likethe Beager with all this sand,
for instance?
SPEAKER_04 (08:52):
So, uh, geomorphology is defined as the
processes that shape the Earth'ssurface.
So, as geomorphologists, we'retrying to interpret for river
systems how water plus sedimentplus vegetation plus ecosystem
engineers interact to produceall of this wonderful diversity
that we see in terms ofdifferent types of rivers and
(09:15):
how they adjust and how theyevolve.
And so when we're out there inthe landscape, we're using a
range of different sort ofinvestigation skills to try and
interpret what that landscape islike and how it's adjusted and
changed, particularly under theinfluence of things like human
disturbance.
And so we use field work, so weuse, you know, we do surveys, uh
(09:38):
we go and dig pits and we lookat the sediments, which hold the
archive, they hold the historyof how that river has adjusted
and evolved over time.
We use historical resources tounravel or to track how things
have adjusted and changed overtime.
And nowadays, of course, we canuse remote sensing and and big
data, which you know just sortof like blows your mind in terms
(10:00):
of the capability that remotesensing and GIS can can give us.
And then we can use that as abasis for sort of thinking about
well, how has the river adjustedin the past?
Why is it in the condition thatit is today, and how could we
forecast how that river mightadjust in the future under
different sorts of disturbancesor influences?
And so when we're out there, soin the beagre catchment, that
(10:23):
was a lot of work to unravel orto investigate the history of
river adjustment, what thoserivers were like prior to
colonisation, and then my workand also Andrew Brooks, who you
will know, also worked in the inthe beager catchment as well.
And we were looking atpost-colonisation, river change.
And in that catchment, my workwas in the upper part of the
(10:46):
catchment, looking at the bigvalley fields.
So prior to colonisation, theyused to be swamps and chain of
ponds environments, and then asa result of you know drainage of
those swamps and clearance ofthe vegetation and so on, they
became incised and they producedthese massive gully networks,
these big overwidened channels.
(11:07):
And that's where all thesediment came from that
eventually made it to the bottomend of the beager system and why
we had that sediment slug stuckin that system, and it's still
there today.
It's still stuck in that system.
Um, so that's where all thatwork originated, and so my
honours project was was aboutlooking at the longer term, so
over thousands of years, historyof those swampy environments,
(11:29):
and then how that got alteredand changed uh
post-colonisation.
SPEAKER_00 (11:34):
One of the things I noticed when you were talking
about you know the multiplelines of evidence and the range
of factors that can influence astream is ecosystem engineers.
And I've got these you knowlittle ideas of fish out there
with pickforks.
So can you tell me who who whois an e who or what is an
ecosystem engineer in Australia?
SPEAKER_04 (11:51):
Yeah, so you know, ecosystem engineers are the the
fauna, the aquatic fauna thatthat that live and that you know
function within our riversystems.
Um in North American placesthey've got fantastic ecosystem
engineers, uh beaver, right?
So building a beaver dams and soon.
Um in an Australian context, youknow, our ecosystem engineers um
(12:14):
we don't really have a hugenumber of them.
You know, our fish are quitelazy, but we do have platypus,
we do have uh wombats and so onthat are part of that sort of
riverine ecosystem, and so theyinteract with you know the
sediment, the water, thevegetation, the wood, um, and so
on, and are part of thefunctionality of river systems.
SPEAKER_00 (12:35):
And I think the introduced European carp does a
bit of engineering, doesn't it?
Because it's it's an I mean it'sa all credit to it in the fact
that it is an amazing um speciesbecause it can breathe through
mud, but often the water ismuddier where there is carp
because they actually digthrough the mud and and sift
through it really for food,don't they?
SPEAKER_04 (12:54):
Yeah, absolutely.
So yeah, yeah, carp is afantastic ecosystem engineer.
Um, just not suited toAustralian rivers and and how
they function and how theyevolve.
SPEAKER_00 (13:05):
So, with with your work on the beager, then, um, I
always tend to think that, youknow, not all rivers are the
same.
Actually, most people I speak toin Australia always say that
their river or creek is specialand it's different to everybody
else.
But you've come up with thisriver styles idea, you know, and
I was explaining it to someonethis morning, and I always think
of you know, strike the pose,like Madonna, in terms of the
(13:26):
style.
Um, tell me a bit about thisriver styles framework that
you've developed.
SPEAKER_04 (13:31):
Yeah, so I mean geomorphology, uh, when we're
talking about geomorphology andriver management, we're
basically talking about tryingto understand and interpret
what's called the physicaltemplate of a river.
Okay, so the physical templateis that the structure of the
river and also the processesthat are operating to create all
of that river diversity.
(13:52):
And um trying to get this uhphysical template in place and
understand it provides reallyimportant foundations for
understanding rivers and howthey function, but also it's on
top of this template that awhole range of other ecosystem
processes occur.
So, you know, nutrient cycling,uh, carbon cycling, uh, organic
matter processing, um, and allof those interactions with all
(14:16):
the flora and fauna that we seewithin river systems.
And so the geomorphology wealways say provides these
foundation template.
And the river styles frameworkis essentially um a set of
procedures that we use toanalyse and interpret that
physical template.
SPEAKER_00 (14:34):
Right, okay.
SPEAKER_04 (14:35):
Um so it's not classification.
Um, a lot of people misinterpretit as a classification scheme,
it's a characterization scheme.
And what we do is we have a setof procedures and we teach
people how to observe and how tointerpret the geomorphology of
(14:55):
rivers.
And so you can think ofdifferent river styles as like
species, right?
Different species.
There's this whole range ofdiversity of rivers out there.
And I think in New South Waleswe've got, at last count, 47
different types and differentstyles of rivers, just in terms
of their geomorphology.
Um, if you take that out to sortof the global scale, I think
(15:16):
we're getting up to you know 70plus uh different types.
So it's like the geomorphicdiversity, and trying to think
through how do you go aboutinterpreting that platform or
that that template, I shouldsay, and thinking then about
right, what is the health statusor the condition of that
(15:36):
template?
So you can think of it in termsof the geomorphology being
similar to the foundations of ahouse, right?
So if you've got foundationsthat are in good working order
and the plumbing's working andelectricity is working, that
makes that house habitable.
Okay, so geomorphology being thestructure and the function of
rivers, if your house hasn't gota good structure and it hasn't
(15:59):
got all those functions inworking order, then that habitat
is compromised.
So that's essentially what we'relooking at in terms of
geomorphology is the foundationstructure and function, and
trying to then think about well,if that's not in good working
order, then some of those otherecosystem processes start to
fall down.
And that's where you start tosee deterioration in river
(16:21):
health, whether it's ecology orwater quality or some of those
other sorts of cycling andecosystem processes that are
occurring.
So that's what the river styleframework does.
Um, it produces that that Iguess that inventory of the
types of rivers or the stylesthat we've got.
It then assesses well, what isthe health status of all of the
(16:43):
different reaches of thesestyles that we have within our
catchment?
And then we start to think aboutwell, what's the likelihood of
improving that condition overthe next several decades?
And this is called recoverypotential.
So thinking about you know,what's the likelihood that a
river that might be in poorcondition, that's of a certain
(17:04):
style, improving towards, say,moderate or good condition over
the next several decades?
And what can we do as rivermanagers to either say leave it
alone and let itself heal,because it might already be
showing signs of recovery, so wedon't need to tinker.
Or what could we do as rivermanagers to strategically
(17:26):
enhance that recovery andimprove that condition over
time?
And maybe accelerate that sothat it doesn't take as long as
if you would left it alone.
And then so once we've got thoselayers in place, we've got the
style, we've got the health orthe condition, we've got some
idea about recovery potential,we can then apply that in river
(17:46):
management and we can thinkabout okay, well, where are we
going to prioritize first?
Where are we gonna get best bangfor our buck?
Or where can we work with theriver to self-heal?
And strategically thinking aboutwhere we should intervene or
where we should maybe leave theriver alone to self-heal.
SPEAKER_00 (18:04):
It's amazing, you know, as as humans we like to
meddle as much as possible.
And so when we go out on a farm,for instance, and say, actually,
all you need to do is fence thisoff, it's sort of like, really?
Uh yeah, okay.
Obviously manage weeds, um,control stock.
But it's that idea of recoverypotential that often gets people
(18:26):
over the line in terms of doingsome work.
How do you explain to people inreally highly modified systems
there it it's often hard?
Um it's really it's reallysomething I I find hard, that
it's never going to go back towhat it was.
So when you talk about arecovery trajectory or
potential, what sort ofdiscussions do you have with
(18:48):
people about where that rivermight be able to get to, given
sort of what it's been throughalready?
SPEAKER_04 (18:53):
Yeah, yeah, it's a very good question and um
incredibly challenging to tocommunicate that in a scientific
sense, but also you know, withcommunity and practitioners and
so on.
I guess you know, one thing thatthat that we do is just be
realistic, right?
Our rivers are not going back topre-colonisation, so they're not
going back to those sorts ofconditions.
(19:15):
Um, and we always say, look,when we're assessing recovery
potential, we're just trying toget the best possible river
health or condition that we canachieve under contemporary, we
call them boundary conditions,right?
So we've got climate changeoperating, we've got, you know,
human disturbance operating onriver systems.
And you know, the purist in mesort of says, well, you know,
(19:37):
we've got weed managementproblems and so on, but the
realist in me sort of says,look, we might just have to
accept that that some of thesethings we're not going back to a
pristine or to an intact,whatever word you want to use,
uh, condition.
So I think setting realisticexpectations and setting, you
know, targets that arerealistic, and we just sort of
(19:59):
define recovery potential aslet's see if we can improve the
condition to the best possiblecondition it can be under those
current contemporary conditions.
And so when we're talking to,you know, it doesn't matter
whether we're talking toscientists or community or
practitioners, I think settingthat realistic uh expectation is
(20:19):
incredibly important.
And when we're analysingcondition, our reference
condition, we never ever say,oh, our reference condition is a
pre-colonisation version,because that would mean that
every river in the country is inpoor condition.
That's right.
So, you know, our referenceconditions are we call it an
expected condition.
So what would this river belike?
(20:41):
How would it look?
How would it uh be be behavingif it was in really good
condition or excellent conditionunder contemporary conditions?
And so that then sets, I think,a bit more of a realistic
expectation.
Sometimes I can see people sortof have a bit of a sigh of
relief, you know, that thatexpectation is something
(21:02):
realistic and that in acommunity context people can
grab hold of that and go, yeah,I think I can achieve something
here, right, to improvecondition, and we'll do the best
we can we possibly can under thecircumstances.
But I guess when we're talkingabout um recovery potential and
and trajectories of change,that's where the geomorphologist
(21:23):
sort of really earns their cash,I guess, because because we're
reading the landscape and we cansort of undertake forecasting
exercises, we know how theriver's adjusted in the past.
We have a sense of what itscondition is today.
And we can sort of then runscenarios and go, right, well,
what might happen in a futureunder climate change where
(21:44):
droughts and floods and firesare going to become more
prevalent?
Um, what might happen, you know,if we do some assisted
rehabilitation um along theseparticular rivers?
How is that going to enhance orimprove the condition of those
rivers?
Or what might happen if we leaveit alone?
Is that river system going tostart to recover on its own and
(22:05):
therefore us as practitioners oras managers really only need to
either monitor that and keepcheck on it, or maybe do
interventions that try andaccelerate or enhance that.
And so forecasting what the thethe different sorts of options,
the different scenarios that arepossible, and giving people
realistic expectations, I think,about what that can be.
(22:27):
And then that helps to then go,right, well, if we are going to
intervene and put some sort oftreatment, what's the what's the
most appropriate treatmentresponse?
And it may well be simple asfencing off, letting the river
self-heal on its own, becausemany rivers are they are
self-healing.
SPEAKER_00 (22:44):
So when you're talking about the scenarios, you
know, living within the worldsof government grants as we do,
often you know, magic has tohappen within three years, which
is totally ridiculous becausethat's is going to take probably
50 to 100 years for many areas.
How do you um provide advice topeople uh that enables them to
(23:05):
you know hopefully get a grant,but also to um place it within
the longer term context of howlong it takes for a river to
recover?
SPEAKER_04 (23:14):
Yeah, yeah, it's a good question.
So we always say um we need tobe ready.
So when the opportunity arisesfor a grant, you can go, yes,
well we we know that we're goingto go and target either this
particular reach or thisparticular catchment because all
that hard work's already sort ofbeen done and it's been set up
already.
So the forecasting and theanalysis of condition and
(23:36):
recovery potential is sort ofalready sitting there waiting
for the most prime moment to go,yep, okay, if we have the
opportunity to get a grant or towork with a particular community
group or work in a particularcatchment, um, then we're ready
and we can put those plans infront of people, um, or we can
put those realistic expectationsin front of people and say, yep,
(24:00):
all right, when we get theopportunity, we're gonna go for
it.
So, you know, a good example isafter the big floods, the
2021-22 floods, and lots andlots of investment very, very
rapidly um after those floods tofix you know the rivers.
And um it was very, veryinteresting because in some
places I was doing communityforums after those floods, and
(24:23):
there was a real sort ofdespondency in the community.
People were tired, and you know,rightly so.
You know, they'd had fires, theyhad the drought, um, and they
had these big floods.
And so people were like, we'vebeen investing, you know, 20
years in riparian restoration orrehabilitation in these systems,
and they felt like a lot of thatwork had been wasted.
(24:45):
And there's these massiveinvestments going on in you
know, stream bank and riparianuh rehabilitation after the
floods.
And so in places where a lot ofthat recovery was already
occurring, um, or in placeswhere they had a good idea, a
strategy in place, so beingready, they could grab hold of
those opportunities and applyfor a grant for you know
(25:06):
rehabilitation along certainreaches or working with
different communities andpractitioners.
So I guess the answer is beready.
Yeah.
Um so when those opportunitieshappen, you might have to wait a
while, but when thoseopportunities happen, you can
you can grab them so you're notsort of scurrying around uh
because you simply don't havethe time, and you're right, the
turnover uh and the turnaroundtime on those things is is is
(25:30):
really really quick.
So knowing what you would liketo do and and knowing when to
intervene is really reallyimportant.
SPEAKER_00 (25:37):
Yeah, and I I think that there is a a growing
understanding from the fundingbodies about what can and can't
be achieved in the short timeframes.
I know that you know what youwere talking about, setting
realistic expectations, umsharing the knowledge that you
have and being very frank aboutwhat can and can't be done.
That's certainly how we're goingabout things now.
(25:59):
And and for us, with all thework we do with river
restoration, we're now startingto say it's all very well to put
the trees in, but you actuallythen need to support the
landowner who then has to manageferal animals, it has to, you
know, cope with weeds, has toensure that its fencing stays
intact if there's a flood, andjust be there to support that
(26:20):
person through what they'retrying to do because it's it's
not as simple as just whackingin a few trees to actually bring
it bring a river back.
So I think that's reallyimportant.
Another thing that struck mejust hearing you is how River
Styles then has provided acommon language amongst those
people that have done it, andthat must mean you've got a
whole community where you cansay, or it's an upstream um
(26:43):
section of river with going intoa swampy meadow or whatever it
might be.
Is that the case?
Absolutely, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (26:49):
And you know, now that river styles have been
around for quite a while, thereit does have a language of its
own, but it's fascinating thatum yeah, you find in the the
weirdest of places, you know,words and terms sort of pop up.
And I'll give you two examples.
Um so doing community forums andtown halls um in Beeger and in
(27:12):
the Hunter and other places andso on, and you do a you know a
presentation on about even justriver diversity, you know, this
wonderful diversity of riversthat we see in these catchments
and so on.
And people come up to you at theend, and we've had, you know,
little old ladies and grandmasgo, I live on a partly confined
river, you know.
And so I guess showing people umthat diversity and also showing
(27:36):
them things like the conditionand that you know reaches are
parts of catchments and thinkingat the catchment scale.
People really get it, right?
And they just want the words,they want the they want the the
way of communicating that.
Um and as geomorphologists we welove to invent you know new
jargon and new words, but I liketo think of it as a common
(27:58):
language.
You know, and another example iswe've we've been teaching
Riversdale short courses in awhole range of different
international contexts, and someof them are multilingual
classes.
So we're running a a shortcourse in the Philippines and um
in the northern part of thePhilippines, and we had English,
(28:19):
we had Australian English, youknow, we had we had Kirsty
English, um, we had um GaryEnglish, um, we had Filipino,
and we had uh a whole range oflocal indigenous um languages in
the room.
And so pedagogically, you know,I I originally thought, oh, this
(28:40):
is gonna be really quitechallenging.
But actually it was fantasticbecause you know, we'd be
talking about geomorphology andwe'd use these terms, you know,
pools and riffles and benchesand levees and partly confined
rivers, you know, all thosesorts of words.
And then people were sort ofconnecting with that, and it
became the the common languagethat we could all uh talk about
(29:04):
rivers, no matter what languagewe were speaking.
And so we were teaching thissort of we were teaching river
styles and how to do theinterpretation using these these
procedures and so on.
And my uh my words and and my mysentences were being translated
into Filipino, and then theFilipino people were translating
(29:25):
that into the local, you know,indigenous um languages.
And so we do a lot of groupwork, right?
We don't stand up front and justdo lots of lectures, so lots of
group work, and it's this reallynoisy classroom, right, with all
of these different languages umcropping up, and I thought, wow,
this is fascinating.
But then occasionally you'd hearfrom the other side of the room,
oh that's a bench, you know, oroh, that's a partly confined
(29:49):
planform controlled river, andthen there'd be a whole range of
other languages around that, andso that was a real that was a
really important learning, Ithink, because even though We do
get sort of criticized forcreating language and creating
that that sort of jargon is aconnector as well.
And it's a connector acrossdifferent languages.
SPEAKER_00 (30:10):
And when you're in a multilingual classroom, you
don't really have much choiceother than to try and create
some sort of common language sothat people it's a wonderful
story because you you'reactually co-creating a language
which will be with that group ofpeople and you can take that
experience elsewhere.
I I think we do do that.
You know, in in you knowAustralia's massive and you you
(30:31):
know you go through severalcountries in Europe all with
different languages, whereashere we say, oh no, we all speak
the same language.
We actually don't.
The basic fundamentals might bethere.
But I know when we weredeveloping our pairing
guidelines for the cottonindustry, and then some for the
sugar industry, then some forthe wool industry, and then some
for the dairy industry, they allhad to be modified to reflect
(30:53):
the language that they use abouttheir experience as dairy
farmers and their experience asa cotton farmer and what they
call a drain, someone else mightcall something else.
So I do think it's importantthat we sort of try to take that
time to understand who we'reworking with and get to know the
language that's there.
(31:13):
Um we're so quick in Australiato pick people up when we say,
you know, a town nameincorrectly.
Uh so you know, it's not as ifAustralians are gonna just get a
get away with it either.
SPEAKER_04 (31:22):
No, and and it's fascinating, it works the other
way as well.
So, you know, even in in ingeomorphology in an Australian
context, we have this thisfloodplain feature, this
geomorphic unit that's called aflood runner, right?
So that's a geomorphic unit, andwe use that term all the time.
But the rid the origins of theword flood runner come from
(31:44):
local farmers who have observed,you know, the short circuiting
of a floodplain pocket duringflood flows.
And so that term originated inthe community with the local
landowners and has been adoptedby the geomorphologist.
So it works both ways in termsof creating that that common
language as well.
SPEAKER_00 (32:05):
So from the descriptions you've given, it
sounds to me like River Stylesprovides you with an opportunity
to take a really collaborativeapproach to river management.
What do you think are thebiggest issues facing river
management at the moment?
SPEAKER_04 (32:19):
Well, of course, you know, there's resourcing and
institutional arrangements andso on that that, you know, in
many ways as individuals wecan't sort of really control.
Um, but I think there's a coupleof challenges that that we as
individuals, whether we'rescientists or practitioners or
community, can really uh thinkabout that challenge us in terms
(32:40):
of our ability to, I always sayknowing when to opt out of the
process, and it comes back toone being ready, but
secondarily, it might be best toleave the river alone, right, to
allow it to self-heal and torecover.
Um, and so knowing when a riveris at a point where we can leave
(33:00):
it alone takes bravery, right?
It takes bravery to say, wedon't need to do any more at
this point.
Let's just see how the riverresponds.
Because rivers are dynamicentities, right?
They've got these processes andbehaviour going on.
Um, right, so they're alwaysadjusting and changing, and you
hope that the treatments thatyou're putting in are putting
(33:20):
the river onto one of thoserecovery trajectories.
Um, but knowing when to opt outis a massive challenge.
So when to stop tinkering, andthat doesn't mean walk away,
that means monitor, observe,make sure that you know things
are going okay, that things areimproving their condition over
time.
So knowing when to opt in andthen but more importantly, when
(33:43):
to opt out, I think is a massivechallenge.
Thank you for the industry.
SPEAKER_00 (33:47):
Yeah, agreed, agreed, and it is that word
bravery, isn't it?
I know that we love to tinker.
In fact, early on in the in thisdiscussion, you were talking
about going to the beach.
And you know, when you go to thebeach, kids, we always dig
channels and then we put stuffin the channel to divert the
water.
Like that is just somethingevery child does.
(34:08):
So we just love engineering andtinkering.
So, yeah, sometimes saying topeople, I know Laurie who I
worked with very closely, youknow, she's out there giving
advice to farmers, she says it'salmost like they feel ripped off
when you say, just leave italone.
It's like, really?
I can just leave it?
Yep, you can just leave italone.
Yeah, um, and giving thempermission to do that and the
knowledge to do that is also Ithink really important so that
(34:31):
if they're called on it bysomeone else, they can actually
say, Well, no, this is how weactually are going to fix this
river or bring this river backto some semblance of life, um,
which is what we're trying to dowith our work up on the upper
Murumbidji.
Um such a great conversation,thank you so much.
I don't want to leave thisconversation without talking to
(34:52):
you about Antarctica.
I had no idea you'd ever been toAntarctica.
So, what did that researchinvolve?
Heavy metal contamination?
I know.
I know, I know.
SPEAKER_04 (35:01):
Completely uh nothing to do with fluvial
geomorphology whatsoever.
SPEAKER_00 (35:06):
That's perfectly fine.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (35:07):
Um but you know, what I realised was that, you
know, all of those sort ofgeneric skills really, I would
really, really, really neededthem.
Yeah, no.
Uh down to you know, survivaltactics in the in the cold
environment through to, youknow, planning, um, time
management, you know, all ofthose sorts of skills.
(35:28):
Um so it came about, I'd alwayssort of said to my colleagues,
um, look, if there's any anyopportunity to go south, I'd
love, you know, just just giveme a call, I'll be on the on the
ship.
Anyway, it was about a decadeago now, and um Damien Gore,
who's one of my colleagues, uh,he works in environmental
quality, um he was doing a lotof contaminants uh site
(35:50):
assessment work in Antarctica,and there was this opportunity
to uh go south uh for twoseasons, two summer seasons, and
do contaminated site assessment,um, but also to look at um how
to treat landfill waste.
So in Antarctica, up until Ithink it was about the 80s or
90s, um, all waste generated onstations was put into landfills
(36:16):
around the stations.
And so nowadays it's all calledRTA, return to Australia.
So any waste or any rubbishthat's that's generated is
either treated on site orreturned to Australia.
But because of that historicallegacy, there's quite a lot of
landfills and also sites aroundwhere stations had been
(36:36):
abandoned.
So Wilkes is a classic exampleof that.
It's an old station uh that'sbeen left intact essentially on
the continent.
And so we were part of theAustralian Antarctic Division
Human Impacts and RemediationTeam.
And so there were two key thingsthat we were that we were
charged with responsibility ofdoing was doing experiments on
(36:59):
um how to stabilize heavy metalsthat were running off from these
landfill sites into the marineenvironment.
And because geochemicalreactions occur differently
under really cold temperatures.
Yeah, yeah, we were doing a lotof experiments about how to uh
stabilise those heavy metals.
So that was on station at atCasey, and so we were setting up
(37:22):
drums with all of this, youknow, heavy metal waste steel
and all this other sort ofstuff, um, and then adding
secret herbs and spices and thenand and uh seeing what the
chemical reactions were andwhether we were getting any
runoff.
So that was one component, butanother component was um we
spent some time at WilkesStation, which is the abandoned
(37:43):
station, um adjacent to CaseyStation.
And in the 1960s that stationwas set up, um, and when the new
Casey station was built, Wilkeswas basically left as is, almost
with you know, plates and knivesand forks and so on on the
tables.
Oh, that was like set up to thenew station.
And so this station is stillthere and it's buried under
(38:06):
under the snow.
Um and you can see sort of theoutlines of the buildings and so
on.
So we went in, we were doing acontaminated site assessment
because all of that waste hasbasically been left in that
environment.
So we were just doing a aninventory of the uh the the
chemicals that are there, theheavy metals that are there, tr
(38:27):
testing you know the stuffthat's been left behind to see
whether it was leading to runoffof heavy metals.
And then subsequently over thelast 10 years they've thought
more effectively about how totreat some of those different uh
contaminated sites, um, youknow, using a range of different
treatment techniques.
But we were just doing thebaseline contaminated site
(38:49):
assessment.
So, yeah, that were the two mainprograms.
You know, you've sort of like,well, you're going south and you
think, wow, this pristine,beautiful, wonderful, and it is,
it's an amazing environment.
You almost can't describe it.
It's it's it's a fascinatingplace.
It's not a scary place, but youyou've got to be on your guard,
you know, the whole time.
(39:10):
Um, but here we were going inlooking at human impacts and
waste and so on in this sort oflike beautiful environment.
So um, yeah, it was it wasabsolutely awesome.
SPEAKER_00 (39:20):
There must have been some hard times as well.
How remote were you?
Like you were seriously remote.
How many people were on thestation at the same time?
SPEAKER_04 (39:28):
Um so Casey is not hugely remote.
It it's one of the stationswhere um you can fly in on the
on the plane.
Uh the first season we went downon the on the Aurora Australis,
and that was a a two-weekjourney on the Southern Ocean,
which was which I loved.
Oh look at you! Yeah, it was itwas wonderful.
(39:49):
And then you landed at at Casey.
Uh the second year we we we flewin and we and we flew out, which
is a which is an experience initself.
Um, but you know, so Casey, wewere living on on Casey Station
in the summer it can get up toabout a hundred people um on
station.
So, you know, completelyself-sufficient.
(40:10):
So, you know, everything fromcooks and and and so on to
tradies, you know, the plumbersand the electricians and then
the scientists and and so on.
So it's a whole community, andyou're completely
self-sufficient and you'recompletely reliant on each other
uh for for the whole summerseason.
Um so Casey's not particularlyremote.
Wilkes is a little bit moreremote, um, so we were a very,
(40:30):
very small team that went out tothat station.
So we had to, um, there wasmyself and and another person,
um, and we were we were basedout there at the Wilkes Hilton,
as it's as it's uh colloquiallyknown.
Um so it's one of the old hutsfrom the station out there.
So we went out on a hag, whichis one of those um like trucks
(40:52):
with the what do they call withthe tractors on them.
So they took us out there, um,they brought out our brought out
our gear and stuff on a on arubber dinghy, and we'll just
landed there um to go off and doall of our contaminated side
assessment stuff.
So very, very differentexperience.
Um completely sort of isolatedum at Wilkes.
(41:16):
And I think I always say topeople, have you ever heard
silence?
And just think about that for 30seconds, right?
People go, Oh yes, I've I'veheard silence, and you go, Well,
think about that, right?
In in our everyday lives, youknow, we've got leaves rustling,
we've got cockatoos and even thehum of electricity, right?
(41:39):
When you really, really thinkabout it, right?
So we're surrounded by noise allthe time, you know, and even
when we're out there on theriver, you know, you've got the
water and you've so there'snowhere that's really silent.
And at Wilkes, I think I cangenuinely say I heard silence
for about I don't know, 15minutes.
So it was a dead calm day.
Um, it was sort of twilightevening.
(42:01):
The penguins had, you know, shutup.
Um and I just sat there and Iwent, Oh wow, this is complete
and utter silence.
And almost to the point whereyou can hear your heart beating
and your ears just ringing.
Wow.
And you go, Wow, that's reallycool.
Yeah.
(42:22):
And so you sort of like youdon't realise until you're in
that sort of place, you know,how much noise there is in our
environment.
And and you can just feelyourself sort of like just calm
right down.
And your brain just sort oflike, you know, instead of being
on on call all the time and yourbrain going, you just go, Wow, I
can just sit here for 15minutes, completely isolating.
(42:44):
All right, completely, you know,no one no one within CUE of of
where I am.
So a little bit scary in thatregard.
Yeah.
But um, yeah, so sorts ofexperiences that are hard to
explain, I guess.
And when you come back, you getoff the plane in Hobart or you
get off the ship or whatever,and you and like you just even
(43:05):
just crossing the street, yougotta really stop and go, right,
you almost need to ramp yourselfback up in to to bring yourself
back into that environment andjust take care so you don't get
run over.
That's right.
Silly things like that.
Um, yeah, but yeah, awesomeexperience.
SPEAKER_00 (43:22):
Wow, I I just yeah, all credit to you.
That sounds incredibly brave tome.
Uh I was thinking as you weresitting there, you know, you got
to have the whole sensor sense,isn't it, sensory deprivation
tanks where you get put in atank and you float and you have
nothing around you?
Whereas you just got to, youknow, sit in the odd iceberg and
look out over the sea in thattopic.
Wow.
Yeah, without the peskypenguins, they're they're noisy
(43:45):
creatures.
Are they?
And they stink.
And they stink, yeah.
Yeah.
I often I have been to a few ofthese colonies and gone, you
know what, you really pong.
unknown (43:53):
That's right.
SPEAKER_04 (43:54):
And then the seals are going off and uh anyway, so
yeah, that was a that was anamazing experience.
SPEAKER_00 (44:02):
Uh, how's that experience um informed your
teaching, do you think?
Because you've come back and youthat your career's really, if
it's a decade ago, the last tenyears you've really progressed
in terms of you know going upthe um up to the professors at
professorial level.
Yes, I know.
Well that was a bit of asurprise.
SPEAKER_04 (44:20):
Yes, well deserved.
2018, yeah, that happened and umonly the second female professor
of geomorphology in the country,which I didn't know at the time.
Wow, so which is a bit a bitshocking really it took till
2018, but anyway.
A trailblazer?
Yes, well, only the second one.
(44:40):
Um oh look, you know, when Iwhen I was when I finished my
postdoc, um, you know, I wasgoing for a bunch of academic
positions and none of them werewere coming off.
And at that point I thought,right, that's it, I'm I'm done
with academia.
I went and actually uh studiedtowards being a high school
geography teacher.
Wow.
So I did did a lot of pedagogyuh training back then and that's
(45:03):
really that's really helped meout.
I use that all the time.
Um so you know, all the waythrough my postdoc and PhD and
then you know, through mylectureship and so on, I've
really drawn on that pedagogytraining.
I'm fascinated by how peoplelearn how they uh what they see,
what they interpret, uh the useof visuals rather than just the
(45:24):
written word is a big thing inmy teaching.
Um so you know, it's great thatI've been to Antarctica and seen
a bunch of different roomsbecause I've got a great photo
collection that you would havean amazing photo collection.
So I've really transitioned justin the last few years into
what's called active learning.
So no more lectures, you know,standing in the front of the
(45:48):
class for an hour or doing thesesort of you know, very long
practical sessions, really doingsome of that active learning,
using a whole range of differentlearning resources uh to try and
teach people because gymophologyis not an easy thing to teach.
You know, it's not it's not justa a checklist, it's not just
something that you can sort ofjust pick up through formulas or
(46:12):
equations.
There's no sort of you know,it's not because you're
observing the environment,you're observing rivers and
you're trying to interpret howthey're adjusting and what those
processes are.
Most of the time those processesare invisible because they're
not happening every day.
So trying to teach people how tomake the interpretation from
(46:32):
what they're seeing um and fromwhat they're understanding from
their either their field work orthe remote sensing work or or
whatever it is to get thatinterpretation skill to to read
the landscape, as we say, um, isreally really challenging.
And so I think from from myperspective, and it's in my
undergrad teaching and it's inmy professional short course
(46:53):
teaching, and I teachmicro-credentials now, that that
that observation, thestorytelling, and the use of the
visual part that is just really,really useful when you're trying
to explain complex concepts andget people to think about
interpretation.
It's not just about gatheringdata and hoping that the data
sort of says, yes, well that'swhat's happening.
(47:15):
It's about evaluating andinterpreting that information to
come up with that assessment.
SPEAKER_00 (47:21):
And that's about giving people the skills then to
look at these multiple lines ofevidence you were discussing,
but to also engage their othersenses.
It's sort of that touch, feel,listen, see.
You know, I I know that uh inthe Koorong um well last year um
at the Stream ManagementConference we went to uh see
Nick uh Whiterod's place that heworks at the Koorong, and he's
(47:43):
got this amazing model thatapparently is is tiny, tiny um
granules of glass, but you can syou can actually project images
onto it and move the glassaround to create different
shapes, and it can be and it canbe overlaid with topographical
information or geomorphologicalinformation, and it's
(48:03):
fascinating because you get todo that moving.
Have you got anything like thatthat you use?
SPEAKER_04 (48:08):
No, haven't haven't um got any of those things, but
yeah, I've seen those sorts ofit's probably similar to a flume
or something where you can'tlike we're just talking about
the beach, you know.
Yes, that's it, that's it.
Where you can try and, you know,you adjust things, you put your
little sticks in, you know, andand and see how the different
processes occur.
So yeah, um I haven't used thatin in my teaching because we
(48:30):
haven't got those resources, butcertainly drawn on a whole range
of of different types ofresources, yeah.
I love you know historical airphotos, uh, you know, and those
sorts of things.
They're absolute gold mine of ofof information and you can just
see it.
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah.
Um or if you're in the field,you know, and you're looking at
(48:51):
a a stack of sediments in a foldplane and you go, right, well,
how did those sediments getthere?
That's the interpretation fromthe visual to the interpretation
of thinking about process.
Yeah.
So how did those things getcreated and how are they getting
reworked or form or reformed,and how has that changed over
(49:11):
time?
That's the interpretation sortof skill that we're trying to
teach.
And not everybody can do it.
It is it can be very, verychallenging to get people to
observe and see things in thelandscape and then put that
interpretation lens on top ofit.
It can be very, very difficult.
And it takes time and practiceto sort of get that skill up.
SPEAKER_00 (49:34):
One of the things we were talking about at the
beginning before we startedrecording was about your
leadership style.
And you were talking a bit aboutsome advice that you were given.
Do you want to share that withus?
Oh dear.
SPEAKER_04 (49:47):
Um, so I've been given lots of advice over my um
career, but I'm not sure how tosay this in a non-negative way.
SPEAKER_00 (50:00):
It's not negative, just go ahead.
It's expensive.
Or at the end, but I would havebeen on a negative note.
No, no, don't you worry.
SPEAKER_04 (50:05):
But you know, early on, you know, there weren't many
uh female role models inparticular not in geomorphology
anyway, and um even in sciencesin general.
Today is actually theInternational Day of Women and
Girls in Science.
SPEAKER_00 (50:19):
Oh wow there you go.
So there you go.
Go us.
SPEAKER_04 (50:22):
Yeah, go us.
Um yeah, and and so you know, ofcourse, you know, I had mentors
and so on, and I had my sort oflike my my board, my my
committee of of mentors.
I don't have one mentor, I havethis sort of like committee of
mentors in my head that I drawon and I go, oh gee, I wonder
how they would have dealt withthat particular situation.
(50:43):
Anyway, there were you know,there was a usual sort of you
know advice that that I can'treally repeat, but you know, one
one bit of advice was um Kirsty,no matter what, just maintain
your femininity.
Yep.
Alright.
Yeah.
And I always draw back on that,you know, if I get into a
difficult situation or I feellike I'm getting a bit cranky
and grumpy or something, um, Igo, right, no, just just be
(51:07):
yourself.
Yeah, you know, um, maintainthat femininity and people can
take that or leave that, Iguess.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that was a piece of advicethat that has stuck with me over
time.
SPEAKER_00 (51:17):
And you're a strong female uh role model now.
What do you pass on to yourstudents?
SPEAKER_04 (51:24):
Oh my goodness.
Yeah, well when you put it likethat, it sort of um scares me a
little bit.
SPEAKER_00 (51:29):
Don't worry, I get scared when people tell me I'm a
leader as well.
SPEAKER_04 (51:32):
It's got that, yeah, it's sort of got that layer of
responsibility.
Yes.
Um, I don't know, what do I say?
I I say take ever or take everyopportunity when it opens up.
Okay, there's maybe noteveryone, but but you know, if
something pops up, if it even ifit's, you know, at undergrads,
you know, people saying, Oh,look, I'd really like to help
(51:53):
help out in the field if there'sany opportunities or to
volunteer for something, just tobroaden that experience, or even
just going and seeing thelandscape.
So in that time when I wasworking on the Lurdeck project
when River Styles was uh beingdeveloped, that was a like a
three-year project before I wascompetitive enough to even go
(52:13):
near a PhD.
And that provided me with anamazing opportunity to just
drive around the landscape,right, up and down the coast,
eastern seaboard, and just seeall this different types of
rivers.
And even just having thatopportunity, you know, people
won't ask if you keep saying no.
So if something's put in frontof you, you know, even if it's a
(52:35):
volunteering sort of uh thing,or going and speaking to
somebody um in a completelydifferent field or an
opportunity to just experienceand drive around the landscape,
then you know, grab it.
Yeah.
Because it all adds to that uhexperience.
You can add it on your CV, youknow, yeah, and it just builds
it builds your ability to seethe landscape, to interpret the
(52:58):
landscape, and then think abouthow all different sorts of
people interact with thatlandscape and their values and
and where they where they wherethey feel most comfortable.
SPEAKER_00 (53:09):
Yeah, I think that's part of that uh social geography
you were talking about, becausewe are social beings, aren't we?
And so you know opening yourselfup to that experience and taking
those opportunities to meetother people, see other rivers,
see other landscapes.
SPEAKER_04 (53:25):
Absolutely.
Fantastic.
And that would be it's probablya terrible thing for me to say
as a as a scientist, right?
You know, you sometimes getcritical, oh that's all a bit
too qualitative or that's all abit too, you know, no, I know
too gentlemen.
It's all science, it's justsocial science.
You're a you're a you're ageomorphologist and you're a
scientist, is that yeah, there'sa there's a there's a bit of
(53:46):
tension there sometimes, butyeah, yeah, anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (53:49):
Ultimately it is yeah, that people and nature
interaction.
Absolutely.
Well they always say rivermanagement, it's not about the
environment, it's about people.
Yep, it is definitely.
So as we come to the end of thepodcast, which has been so
enjoyable.
Oh, thank you, Pippa.
She just uh gave a good umwiggle there.
Uh there are three questionsthat we ask every guest.
(54:09):
And so the first one is do youhave a favourite river, waterway
or body of water?
Oh, of course.
You do?
Oh, that's good to know.
SPEAKER_04 (54:18):
What is it?
Um, so my favourite river is theFranklin River in Tasmania.
SPEAKER_00 (54:23):
Oh wow, yeah, that I mean, gosh, that's a good
choice.
SPEAKER_04 (54:25):
Always has been, always will be.
Yep.
And um because you know, we hada lot of family in in Tasmania,
did a lot of, you know, campingand hiking and and and other
sorts of activities in Tasmaniafor you know decades when we
were kids and stuff.
And um it was on one of thosetrips, I think we were in
(54:46):
Strawn, and um picked up thePeter Dombrovskis book and the
posters.
Yeah.
And there was one there whichwas Rock Island Bend on the
Franklin, you know, the veryfamous image from the Miriams
campaign.
And I remember I was a reallyquite small child that campaign,
right?
(55:06):
The save the Franklin Rivercampaign with Bob Brown, he's
one of my heroes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so on.
So, you know, as a as a sort ofa teenager, I didn't have a
poster of rock stars on that onmy wall.
I had the poster of Rock IslandB.
Oh wow and I've still got it.
Yep.
And um I went, I've got to gothere.
Right.
So I was studying, I hooked upon that second year course
(55:28):
called Strange Geomorphology,and I thought, I've got to go to
Rock Island Bend.
I didn't realise how remote, youknow, or what a wilderness it
was.
Anyway, but so I looked into itand I eventually um signed up
for went on two commercialrafting trips.
So I ran rafted the the fulllength of the Franklin from the
from the top end, and I'veforgotten the entry point, um,
(55:50):
right down through to the GordonRiver at the bottom end.
Yeah.
Um and I thought, right, butI've got to be fit.
Yeah.
So you know, had enough fitnessto be able to do that, um, have
enough money to do it.
Um, but just an amazingexperience.
Yeah, there's something aboutthe Franklin, it's got some sort
of mystique or it's got somesort of soul or something about
(56:13):
it, and it's got that thatfeeling about it.
And it's got all the activismand it's got the environmental
movement, and and and it's justan amazing place, and it's
remote.
Yeah.
Um, and so again, I guess it'sone of those, you know, you've
got to survive on the river.
Yes, yeah.
You've got to take care ofyourself, yes, um, as well, and
(56:33):
you've got to be you've got tobe cautious in some
circumstances, but even justseeing those places, and we got
to Rock Island Bend, and it wasit was on a sunny afternoon,
yeah, and I didn't recognise itbecause it didn't look like the
Peter Dombrovskis picture.
SPEAKER_00 (56:48):
Oh, really?
SPEAKER_04 (56:49):
Didn't have the mist.
Didn't have the mist around.
Oh wow.
And I almost missed it becausewe'd sort of like been paddling,
paddling, paddling, and thenthey went, Oh, there's Rock
Island Bend.
Oh wow.
Anyway, uh I did get a picture,which was really good.
Um, but yeah, it wasn't like thepicture, but it was still it was
still amazing.
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (57:09):
And the picture taken through your camera lens.
SPEAKER_04 (57:12):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah, it was on slide film atthe time.
Slide film at the time.
SPEAKER_00 (57:15):
Yeah.
We'll put a picture up, um,listeners of that on the show
notes so you can see see theinspirational rock bend that
Kirsty's talking about.
So I think you've probablyanswered this, but um, I'll just
check.
Where do you feel most connectedto country and to nature?
SPEAKER_04 (57:31):
Oh, anywhere that's in the bush beside a river.
SPEAKER_00 (57:34):
Yep.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's a beautiful feeling, isn'tit?
SPEAKER_04 (57:38):
Absolutely.
And just that it's so and even,you know, going and you know,
holidays are ruin ruinedforever.
Always going and looking at ariver somewhere.
Yeah.
But yeah, just sitting sittingby the river and it's just had a
calming influence.
Yeah.
It's that thing about water,isn't it?
It is, definitely.
SPEAKER_00 (57:53):
Running water.
Definitely.
Yeah.
Yeah, agreed.
Yeah.
And so finally, what drives youto do what you do?
Oh goodness.
SPEAKER_04 (58:01):
Um well, I guess I'm I'm passionate about the
environment and making adifference, living the world in
a better place than you know,when we inherited it, and we're
really just custodians.
So trying to do the best we canuh in terms of particularly, you
know, improving river health andriver condition.
(58:22):
But I also I'm driven by youknow training the next
generation as well through someof that pedagogy.
So training the next generationof of of students, but you know,
practitioners as well, and andopening their eyes to this
beautiful discipline calledgeomorphology.
SPEAKER_00 (58:40):
Yes, I I think I need to go back to uni now.
Oh well, you can come and do oneof the micro-credential unis.
Who knows?
I might do that, Kirsty, neverthough.
No plug.
We will put um information thereabout the River Styles course as
well for those of you who areinterested.
Well, um well, Kirsty's gonnaleave us now.
She's off to Science MeetsParliament.
(59:02):
And I can assure you, if youtalk with half the passion that
you have today about what youdo, you will definitely get
through to our parliamentarianshow important it is to care
about rivers and live yourtemperature.
Thank you, Red.
Thanks very much, Kirsty.
Have a great rest of your day.
(59:28):
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(00:01):
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(00:22):
Happy listening.
SPEAKER_04 (00:23):
Have you ever heard silence?
And just think about that for 30seconds.
Right?
People go, oh yes, I've I'veheard silence.
And you go, well, think aboutthat, right?
In our everyday lives, you know,we've got leaves rustling, we've
got cockatoos and even the humof electricity, right?
When you really, really thinkabout it, right?
(00:44):
So we're surrounded by noise allthe time.
You know, and even when we'reout there on the river, you
know, you've got the water andyou've so there's nowhere that's
really silent.
And at works, I think I cangenuinely say I heard silence.
And I just sat there and I went,Oh wow, this is complete and
utter silence.
And almost to the point whereyou can hear your heart beating
(01:05):
and your ears just ringing.
Wow.
And you go, Wow, that's reallycool.
Yeah.
And so you sort of like youdon't realise until you're in
that sort of place, you know,how much noise there is in our
environment.
And and you can just feelyourself sort of like just calm
right down.
And your brain just sort oflike, you know, instead of being
(01:26):
on call all the time and yourbrain going, you just go, I can
just sit here for 15 minutes,completely isolating.
SPEAKER_06 (01:34):
Completely, you know, no one's no one within Ku
We.
SPEAKER_00 (01:51):
Hello and welcome to Take Me to the River, sharing
stories and inspiring hope withextraordinary people who care
for our rivers.
I'm your host, Dr.
Shuann Lovett.
Today I'm talking to a goodfriend of mine, Professor Kirsty
Friars.
Kirstie is a renowned expert influvial geomorphology and river
management, and in thisconversation she shares her
insights on the structure andfunction of rivers, how they
(02:12):
adjust and evolve, and how wecan best use geomorphology in
river conservation, recovery andrehabilitation.
Kirsty is probably best known asthe co-developer of the River
Styles Framework, a geomorphicapproach for analysing rivers
that has been adopted in manyareas across six continents.
Kirstie's research on naturalflood management won an award at
last year's Australian StreamManagement Conference for Best
(02:34):
Paper.
Kirstie has extensive domesticand international collaborations
in both academia and industry,and she's worked on many river
science and management projectsas part of multidisciplinary
teams.
She has also conducted researchin Antarctica on heavy metal
contamination at Casey andWilkes stations and has
co-written and co-edited severalbooks on geomorphology and river
(02:55):
management.
She holds several research,teaching and postgraduate
supervision awards, includingthe International Gordon Warwick
Medal for Excellence inResearch, and she's a certified
environmental practitioner ingeomorphology.
She's also just a really niceperson, and I'm excited to dive
into her work and learn moreabout the River Styles Framework
and her career in rivermanagement.
(03:16):
Welcome Kirsty to my backyard.
You may hear a few plainslisteners, uh possibly a
cockatoo and my dog Pippasnoring.
But it's lovely to be here withyou.
How about you let our listenersknow a little bit about yourself
and how you've come to loverivers?
SPEAKER_04 (03:33):
Well, thank you firstly for having me in your
backyard.
It's a wonderful place to be.
The garden has grown a lot sinceI was here last time.
But I guess like most people whoare river lovers, you know, it
starts in childhood really,doesn't it?
And I'm one of a family of fourchildren.
I've got three brothers, and allof our childhood was sort of
(03:54):
spent in the outdoors.
We did a lot of bushwalking inthe Blue Mountains where my
grandma lived, and all mycousins uh lived in Tasmania.
So we do big long road trips andwe do lots of hiking and camping
as as kids, and I guess that'swhere my connection with with
water and rivers really startedwas in the great outdoors,
(04:15):
playing in the mud and andplaying in water.
So um yeah, when I was when Iwas at school, um I was quite
good at at science and geographyand and art.
Um and so I had a real passionfor for the outdoors and for for
environmental sort of issues.
And this was sort of in the 80sand 90s, um, so things like you
(04:39):
know, Marbo and things likeclimate change were becoming
more sort of mainstream.
And so when I left school, umall I wanted to do was
environmental impact assessmentbecause that was the sort of the
thing at the time.
And so I went to uni atMacquarie University to do my
undergraduate, and um I wentstraight into environmental
(04:59):
science and environmentalmanagement.
It was called physical geographyat that time.
SPEAKER_00 (05:04):
I did geography and I loved it at school, and you
very rarely hear about it now.
SPEAKER_04 (05:08):
No, that's right.
And you know, it back then itwas it was a mix of physical
geography and human geography.
And nowadays we've sort ofseparated them out, which is a
real shame because they you knowthey interact, and of course,
you know, the environment andhumans and so on is a really
important sort of uh area thatthat you know if we're gonna get
stuff done on the ground, thenwe need people to be working in
(05:30):
nature and the environment.
So anyway, at uni, um that's allI wanted to do was geography.
Um but then I got to second yearand there was this weird course
in the handbook ongeomorphology.
And um so I thought, oh yeah,that sounds interesting, you
know, it's about landscapes andand and different, you know,
coasts and rivers and mountainsand glaciers and all that
(05:51):
exciting stuff.
I thought, oh yeah, I'll sign upfor that.
Anyway, I guess that wasprobably, you know, that was it.
That was that that sort of setme up.
I was hooked from there.
So I had some really fantasticlecturers then, you know,
Professor Gary Briley um thereand and Trish Fanning.
Um so Macquarie had a reallygood geomorphology sort of area
that a lot of us studied in.
(06:12):
And so um, yeah, I followed onin in geomorphology, the
environmental impact assessmentsort of put aside, and um I
studied geomorphology, I did myhonours degree um down in the
bee catchment onpost-colonisation river
disturbance.
Um and then after that I didn'tget the greatest grade in my
(06:33):
honours, so I wasn't competitivefor a PhD scholarship.
So I was appointed by Gary atthat time on Alertec project.
Oh my goodness.
Yeah, which you were the programdirector for.
And so I worked as a researchofficer for three years on that
on that project, and that's whenRiver Strayles was born.
(06:55):
And so you'll probably rememberthat.
I was just very young at thattime, right?
So this is in the late 1990s,early 2000s.
And so I guess that really sortof set up, you know, the River
Strails framework and and so on,which has now been going for 25
years.
SPEAKER_00 (07:12):
Wow, wow.
So so listeners, that um weirdsort of noise that uh Kirsty
made, Lerdic, actually standsfor Land and Water Resources.
Oh, thank you, Cockatoo.
Land and Water ResourcesResearch and Development
Corporation.
Thanks again.
And uh I worked there for about15 years and had the pleasure
of, as Kirsty just said, ofmeeting Kirsty when she was
(07:33):
working on the River Stylesframework with Gary.
And I I was looking at your facejust lighting up when you were
talking about having great umpeople actually teaching you.
Gary just had this charismaabout him, doesn't he?
Probably still does.
He's in Auckland now, I believe.
But he was able to, you know,share his enthusiasm with you
about the topic.
It makes such a difference,doesn't it?
SPEAKER_04 (07:54):
Absolutely, yeah.
And so, you know, um I rememberGary at that time, you know, he
used to wear bandanas and andclogs, and so the floors in the
lecture theatre were all tiled,and so you could hear this as
you walk into the lecturetheatre, and and you know, we'd
all just sort of look at look athim and go, Who is this?
(08:15):
You know, what's going on here?
But yeah, I mean, you know,geomorphology more than anything
else is really aboutstorytelling.
SPEAKER_00 (08:22):
As a storyteller myself, Kirsty, I love hearing
you describing geomorphology asa telling of stories.
And it's fascinating that youwere saying your honours was on
the Beager River, because thatwas one of the first rivers I
looked at when I started at Landand Water Resources RD
Corporation.
Uh, and it had huge issues withsand slugs at the time.
So, can you explain to thelisteners how geomorphology
(08:45):
helps you understand what you'relooking at when you look into a
river and you see something likethe Beager with all this sand,
for instance?
SPEAKER_04 (08:52):
So, uh, geomorphology is defined as the
processes that shape the Earth'ssurface.
So, as geomorphologists, we'retrying to interpret for river
systems how water plus sedimentplus vegetation plus ecosystem
engineers interact to produceall of this wonderful diversity
that we see in terms ofdifferent types of rivers and
(09:15):
how they adjust and how theyevolve.
And so when we're out there inthe landscape, we're using a
range of different sort ofinvestigation skills to try and
interpret what that landscape islike and how it's adjusted and
changed, particularly under theinfluence of things like human
disturbance.
And so we use field work, so weuse, you know, we do surveys, uh
(09:38):
we go and dig pits and we lookat the sediments, which hold the
archive, they hold the historyof how that river has adjusted
and evolved over time.
We use historical resources tounravel or to track how things
have adjusted and changed overtime.
And nowadays, of course, we canuse remote sensing and and big
data, which you know just sortof like blows your mind in terms
(10:00):
of the capability that remotesensing and GIS can can give us.
And then we can use that as abasis for sort of thinking about
well, how has the river adjustedin the past?
Why is it in the condition thatit is today, and how could we
forecast how that river mightadjust in the future under
different sorts of disturbancesor influences?
And so when we're out there, soin the beagre catchment, that
(10:23):
was a lot of work to unravel orto investigate the history of
river adjustment, what thoserivers were like prior to
colonisation, and then my workand also Andrew Brooks, who you
will know, also worked in the inthe beager catchment as well.
And we were looking atpost-colonisation, river change.
And in that catchment, my workwas in the upper part of the
(10:46):
catchment, looking at the bigvalley fields.
So prior to colonisation, theyused to be swamps and chain of
ponds environments, and then asa result of you know drainage of
those swamps and clearance ofthe vegetation and so on, they
became incised and they producedthese massive gully networks,
these big overwidened channels.
(11:07):
And that's where all thesediment came from that
eventually made it to the bottomend of the beager system and why
we had that sediment slug stuckin that system, and it's still
there today.
It's still stuck in that system.
Um, so that's where all thatwork originated, and so my
honours project was was aboutlooking at the longer term, so
over thousands of years, historyof those swampy environments,
(11:29):
and then how that got alteredand changed uh
post-colonisation.
SPEAKER_00 (11:34):
One of the things I noticed when you were talking
about you know the multiplelines of evidence and the range
of factors that can influence astream is ecosystem engineers.
And I've got these you knowlittle ideas of fish out there
with pickforks.
So can you tell me who who whois an e who or what is an
ecosystem engineer in Australia?
SPEAKER_04 (11:51):
Yeah, so you know, ecosystem engineers are the the
fauna, the aquatic fauna thatthat that live and that you know
function within our riversystems.
Um in North American placesthey've got fantastic ecosystem
engineers, uh beaver, right?
So building a beaver dams and soon.
Um in an Australian context, youknow, our ecosystem engineers um
(12:14):
we don't really have a hugenumber of them.
You know, our fish are quitelazy, but we do have platypus,
we do have uh wombats and so onthat are part of that sort of
riverine ecosystem, and so theyinteract with you know the
sediment, the water, thevegetation, the wood, um, and so
on, and are part of thefunctionality of river systems.
SPEAKER_00 (12:35):
And I think the introduced European carp does a
bit of engineering, doesn't it?
Because it's it's an I mean it'sa all credit to it in the fact
that it is an amazing um speciesbecause it can breathe through
mud, but often the water ismuddier where there is carp
because they actually digthrough the mud and and sift
through it really for food,don't they?
SPEAKER_04 (12:54):
Yeah, absolutely.
So yeah, yeah, carp is afantastic ecosystem engineer.
Um, just not suited toAustralian rivers and and how
they function and how theyevolve.
SPEAKER_00 (13:05):
So, with with your work on the beager, then, um, I
always tend to think that, youknow, not all rivers are the
same.
Actually, most people I speak toin Australia always say that
their river or creek is specialand it's different to everybody
else.
But you've come up with thisriver styles idea, you know, and
I was explaining it to someonethis morning, and I always think
of you know, strike the pose,like Madonna, in terms of the
(13:26):
style.
Um, tell me a bit about thisriver styles framework that
you've developed.
SPEAKER_04 (13:31):
Yeah, so I mean geomorphology, uh, when we're
talking about geomorphology andriver management, we're
basically talking about tryingto understand and interpret
what's called the physicaltemplate of a river.
Okay, so the physical templateis that the structure of the
river and also the processesthat are operating to create all
of that river diversity.
(13:52):
And um trying to get this uhphysical template in place and
understand it provides reallyimportant foundations for
understanding rivers and howthey function, but also it's on
top of this template that awhole range of other ecosystem
processes occur.
So, you know, nutrient cycling,uh, carbon cycling, uh, organic
matter processing, um, and allof those interactions with all
(14:16):
the flora and fauna that we seewithin river systems.
And so the geomorphology wealways say provides these
foundation template.
And the river styles frameworkis essentially um a set of
procedures that we use toanalyse and interpret that
physical template.
SPEAKER_00 (14:34):
Right, okay.
SPEAKER_04 (14:35):
Um so it's not classification.
Um, a lot of people misinterpretit as a classification scheme,
it's a characterization scheme.
And what we do is we have a setof procedures and we teach
people how to observe and how tointerpret the geomorphology of
(14:55):
rivers.
And so you can think ofdifferent river styles as like
species, right?
Different species.
There's this whole range ofdiversity of rivers out there.
And I think in New South Waleswe've got, at last count, 47
different types and differentstyles of rivers, just in terms
of their geomorphology.
Um, if you take that out to sortof the global scale, I think
(15:16):
we're getting up to you know 70plus uh different types.
So it's like the geomorphicdiversity, and trying to think
through how do you go aboutinterpreting that platform or
that that template, I shouldsay, and thinking then about
right, what is the health statusor the condition of that
(15:36):
template?
So you can think of it in termsof the geomorphology being
similar to the foundations of ahouse, right?
So if you've got foundationsthat are in good working order
and the plumbing's working andelectricity is working, that
makes that house habitable.
Okay, so geomorphology being thestructure and the function of
rivers, if your house hasn't gota good structure and it hasn't
(15:59):
got all those functions inworking order, then that habitat
is compromised.
So that's essentially what we'relooking at in terms of
geomorphology is the foundationstructure and function, and
trying to then think about well,if that's not in good working
order, then some of those otherecosystem processes start to
fall down.
And that's where you start tosee deterioration in river
(16:21):
health, whether it's ecology orwater quality or some of those
other sorts of cycling andecosystem processes that are
occurring.
So that's what the river styleframework does.
Um, it produces that that Iguess that inventory of the
types of rivers or the stylesthat we've got.
It then assesses well, what isthe health status of all of the
(16:43):
different reaches of thesestyles that we have within our
catchment?
And then we start to think aboutwell, what's the likelihood of
improving that condition overthe next several decades?
And this is called recoverypotential.
So thinking about you know,what's the likelihood that a
river that might be in poorcondition, that's of a certain
(17:04):
style, improving towards, say,moderate or good condition over
the next several decades?
And what can we do as rivermanagers to either say leave it
alone and let itself heal,because it might already be
showing signs of recovery, so wedon't need to tinker.
Or what could we do as rivermanagers to strategically
(17:26):
enhance that recovery andimprove that condition over
time?
And maybe accelerate that sothat it doesn't take as long as
if you would left it alone.
And then so once we've got thoselayers in place, we've got the
style, we've got the health orthe condition, we've got some
idea about recovery potential,we can then apply that in river
(17:46):
management and we can thinkabout okay, well, where are we
going to prioritize first?
Where are we gonna get best bangfor our buck?
Or where can we work with theriver to self-heal?
And strategically thinking aboutwhere we should intervene or
where we should maybe leave theriver alone to self-heal.
SPEAKER_00 (18:04):
It's amazing, you know, as as humans we like to
meddle as much as possible.
And so when we go out on a farm,for instance, and say, actually,
all you need to do is fence thisoff, it's sort of like, really?
Uh yeah, okay.
Obviously manage weeds, um,control stock.
But it's that idea of recoverypotential that often gets people
(18:26):
over the line in terms of doingsome work.
How do you explain to people inreally highly modified systems
there it it's often hard?
Um it's really it's reallysomething I I find hard, that
it's never going to go back towhat it was.
So when you talk about arecovery trajectory or
potential, what sort ofdiscussions do you have with
(18:48):
people about where that rivermight be able to get to, given
sort of what it's been throughalready?
SPEAKER_04 (18:53):
Yeah, yeah, it's a very good question and um
incredibly challenging to tocommunicate that in a scientific
sense, but also you know, withcommunity and practitioners and
so on.
I guess you know, one thing thatthat that we do is just be
realistic, right?
Our rivers are not going back topre-colonisation, so they're not
going back to those sorts ofconditions.
(19:15):
Um, and we always say, look,when we're assessing recovery
potential, we're just trying toget the best possible river
health or condition that we canachieve under contemporary, we
call them boundary conditions,right?
So we've got climate changeoperating, we've got, you know,
human disturbance operating onriver systems.
And you know, the purist in mesort of says, well, you know,
(19:37):
we've got weed managementproblems and so on, but the
realist in me sort of says,look, we might just have to
accept that that some of thesethings we're not going back to a
pristine or to an intact,whatever word you want to use,
uh, condition.
So I think setting realisticexpectations and setting, you
know, targets that arerealistic, and we just sort of
(19:59):
define recovery potential aslet's see if we can improve the
condition to the best possiblecondition it can be under those
current contemporary conditions.
And so when we're talking to,you know, it doesn't matter
whether we're talking toscientists or community or
practitioners, I think settingthat realistic uh expectation is
(20:19):
incredibly important.
And when we're analysingcondition, our reference
condition, we never ever say,oh, our reference condition is a
pre-colonisation version,because that would mean that
every river in the country is inpoor condition.
That's right.
So, you know, our referenceconditions are we call it an
expected condition.
So what would this river belike?
(20:41):
How would it look?
How would it uh be be behavingif it was in really good
condition or excellent conditionunder contemporary conditions?
And so that then sets, I think,a bit more of a realistic
expectation.
Sometimes I can see people sortof have a bit of a sigh of
relief, you know, that thatexpectation is something
(21:02):
realistic and that in acommunity context people can
grab hold of that and go, yeah,I think I can achieve something
here, right, to improvecondition, and we'll do the best
we can we possibly can under thecircumstances.
But I guess when we're talkingabout um recovery potential and
and trajectories of change,that's where the geomorphologist
(21:23):
sort of really earns their cash,I guess, because because we're
reading the landscape and we cansort of undertake forecasting
exercises, we know how theriver's adjusted in the past.
We have a sense of what itscondition is today.
And we can sort of then runscenarios and go, right, well,
what might happen in a futureunder climate change where
(21:44):
droughts and floods and firesare going to become more
prevalent?
Um, what might happen, you know,if we do some assisted
rehabilitation um along theseparticular rivers?
How is that going to enhance orimprove the condition of those
rivers?
Or what might happen if we leaveit alone?
Is that river system going tostart to recover on its own and
(22:05):
therefore us as practitioners oras managers really only need to
either monitor that and keepcheck on it, or maybe do
interventions that try andaccelerate or enhance that.
And so forecasting what the thethe different sorts of options,
the different scenarios that arepossible, and giving people
realistic expectations, I think,about what that can be.
(22:27):
And then that helps to then go,right, well, if we are going to
intervene and put some sort oftreatment, what's the what's the
most appropriate treatmentresponse?
And it may well be simple asfencing off, letting the river
self-heal on its own, becausemany rivers are they are
self-healing.
SPEAKER_00 (22:44):
So when you're talking about the scenarios, you
know, living within the worldsof government grants as we do,
often you know, magic has tohappen within three years, which
is totally ridiculous becausethat's is going to take probably
50 to 100 years for many areas.
How do you um provide advice topeople uh that enables them to
(23:05):
you know hopefully get a grant,but also to um place it within
the longer term context of howlong it takes for a river to
recover?
SPEAKER_04 (23:14):
Yeah, yeah, it's a good question.
So we always say um we need tobe ready.
So when the opportunity arisesfor a grant, you can go, yes,
well we we know that we're goingto go and target either this
particular reach or thisparticular catchment because all
that hard work's already sort ofbeen done and it's been set up
already.
So the forecasting and theanalysis of condition and
(23:36):
recovery potential is sort ofalready sitting there waiting
for the most prime moment to go,yep, okay, if we have the
opportunity to get a grant or towork with a particular community
group or work in a particularcatchment, um, then we're ready
and we can put those plans infront of people, um, or we can
put those realistic expectationsin front of people and say, yep,
(24:00):
all right, when we get theopportunity, we're gonna go for
it.
So, you know, a good example isafter the big floods, the
2021-22 floods, and lots andlots of investment very, very
rapidly um after those floods tofix you know the rivers.
And um it was very, veryinteresting because in some
places I was doing communityforums after those floods, and
(24:23):
there was a real sort ofdespondency in the community.
People were tired, and you know,rightly so.
You know, they'd had fires, theyhad the drought, um, and they
had these big floods.
And so people were like, we'vebeen investing, you know, 20
years in riparian restoration orrehabilitation in these systems,
and they felt like a lot of thatwork had been wasted.
(24:45):
And there's these massiveinvestments going on in you
know, stream bank and riparianuh rehabilitation after the
floods.
And so in places where a lot ofthat recovery was already
occurring, um, or in placeswhere they had a good idea, a
strategy in place, so beingready, they could grab hold of
those opportunities and applyfor a grant for you know
(25:06):
rehabilitation along certainreaches or working with
different communities andpractitioners.
So I guess the answer is beready.
Yeah.
Um so when those opportunitieshappen, you might have to wait a
while, but when thoseopportunities happen, you can
you can grab them so you're notsort of scurrying around uh
because you simply don't havethe time, and you're right, the
turnover uh and the turnaroundtime on those things is is is
(25:30):
really really quick.
So knowing what you would liketo do and and knowing when to
intervene is really reallyimportant.
SPEAKER_00 (25:37):
Yeah, and I I think that there is a a growing
understanding from the fundingbodies about what can and can't
be achieved in the short timeframes.
I know that you know what youwere talking about, setting
realistic expectations, umsharing the knowledge that you
have and being very frank aboutwhat can and can't be done.
That's certainly how we're goingabout things now.
(25:59):
And and for us, with all thework we do with river
restoration, we're now startingto say it's all very well to put
the trees in, but you actuallythen need to support the
landowner who then has to manageferal animals, it has to, you
know, cope with weeds, has toensure that its fencing stays
intact if there's a flood, andjust be there to support that
(26:20):
person through what they'retrying to do because it's it's
not as simple as just whackingin a few trees to actually bring
it bring a river back.
So I think that's reallyimportant.
Another thing that struck mejust hearing you is how River
Styles then has provided acommon language amongst those
people that have done it, andthat must mean you've got a
whole community where you cansay, or it's an upstream um
(26:43):
section of river with going intoa swampy meadow or whatever it
might be.
Is that the case?
Absolutely, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (26:49):
And you know, now that river styles have been
around for quite a while, thereit does have a language of its
own, but it's fascinating thatum yeah, you find in the the
weirdest of places, you know,words and terms sort of pop up.
And I'll give you two examples.
Um so doing community forums andtown halls um in Beeger and in
(27:12):
the Hunter and other places andso on, and you do a you know a
presentation on about even justriver diversity, you know, this
wonderful diversity of riversthat we see in these catchments
and so on.
And people come up to you at theend, and we've had, you know,
little old ladies and grandmasgo, I live on a partly confined
river, you know.
And so I guess showing people umthat diversity and also showing
(27:36):
them things like the conditionand that you know reaches are
parts of catchments and thinkingat the catchment scale.
People really get it, right?
And they just want the words,they want the they want the the
way of communicating that.
Um and as geomorphologists we welove to invent you know new
jargon and new words, but I liketo think of it as a common
(27:58):
language.
You know, and another example iswe've we've been teaching
Riversdale short courses in awhole range of different
international contexts, and someof them are multilingual
classes.
So we're running a a shortcourse in the Philippines and um
in the northern part of thePhilippines, and we had English,
(28:19):
we had Australian English, youknow, we had we had Kirsty
English, um, we had um GaryEnglish, um, we had Filipino,
and we had uh a whole range oflocal indigenous um languages in
the room.
And so pedagogically, you know,I I originally thought, oh, this
(28:40):
is gonna be really quitechallenging.
But actually it was fantasticbecause you know, we'd be
talking about geomorphology andwe'd use these terms, you know,
pools and riffles and benchesand levees and partly confined
rivers, you know, all thosesorts of words.
And then people were sort ofconnecting with that, and it
became the the common languagethat we could all uh talk about
(29:04):
rivers, no matter what languagewe were speaking.
And so we were teaching thissort of we were teaching river
styles and how to do theinterpretation using these these
procedures and so on.
And my uh my words and and my mysentences were being translated
into Filipino, and then theFilipino people were translating
(29:25):
that into the local, you know,indigenous um languages.
And so we do a lot of groupwork, right?
We don't stand up front and justdo lots of lectures, so lots of
group work, and it's this reallynoisy classroom, right, with all
of these different languages umcropping up, and I thought, wow,
this is fascinating.
But then occasionally you'd hearfrom the other side of the room,
oh that's a bench, you know, oroh, that's a partly confined
(29:49):
planform controlled river, andthen there'd be a whole range of
other languages around that, andso that was a real that was a
really important learning, Ithink, because even though We do
get sort of criticized forcreating language and creating
that that sort of jargon is aconnector as well.
And it's a connector acrossdifferent languages.
SPEAKER_00 (30:10):
And when you're in a multilingual classroom, you
don't really have much choiceother than to try and create
some sort of common language sothat people it's a wonderful
story because you you'reactually co-creating a language
which will be with that group ofpeople and you can take that
experience elsewhere.
I I think we do do that.
You know, in in you knowAustralia's massive and you you
(30:31):
know you go through severalcountries in Europe all with
different languages, whereashere we say, oh no, we all speak
the same language.
We actually don't.
The basic fundamentals might bethere.
But I know when we weredeveloping our pairing
guidelines for the cottonindustry, and then some for the
sugar industry, then some forthe wool industry, and then some
for the dairy industry, they allhad to be modified to reflect
(30:53):
the language that they use abouttheir experience as dairy
farmers and their experience asa cotton farmer and what they
call a drain, someone else mightcall something else.
So I do think it's importantthat we sort of try to take that
time to understand who we'reworking with and get to know the
language that's there.
(31:13):
Um we're so quick in Australiato pick people up when we say,
you know, a town nameincorrectly.
Uh so you know, it's not as ifAustralians are gonna just get a
get away with it either.
SPEAKER_04 (31:22):
No, and and it's fascinating, it works the other
way as well.
So, you know, even in in ingeomorphology in an Australian
context, we have this thisfloodplain feature, this
geomorphic unit that's called aflood runner, right?
So that's a geomorphic unit, andwe use that term all the time.
But the rid the origins of theword flood runner come from
(31:44):
local farmers who have observed,you know, the short circuiting
of a floodplain pocket duringflood flows.
And so that term originated inthe community with the local
landowners and has been adoptedby the geomorphologist.
So it works both ways in termsof creating that that common
language as well.
SPEAKER_00 (32:05):
So from the descriptions you've given, it
sounds to me like River Stylesprovides you with an opportunity
to take a really collaborativeapproach to river management.
What do you think are thebiggest issues facing river
management at the moment?
SPEAKER_04 (32:19):
Well, of course, you know, there's resourcing and
institutional arrangements andso on that that, you know, in
many ways as individuals wecan't sort of really control.
Um, but I think there's a coupleof challenges that that we as
individuals, whether we'rescientists or practitioners or
community, can really uh thinkabout that challenge us in terms
(32:40):
of our ability to, I always sayknowing when to opt out of the
process, and it comes back toone being ready, but
secondarily, it might be best toleave the river alone, right, to
allow it to self-heal and torecover.
Um, and so knowing when a riveris at a point where we can leave
(33:00):
it alone takes bravery, right?
It takes bravery to say, wedon't need to do any more at
this point.
Let's just see how the riverresponds.
Because rivers are dynamicentities, right?
They've got these processes andbehaviour going on.
Um, right, so they're alwaysadjusting and changing, and you
hope that the treatments thatyou're putting in are putting
(33:20):
the river onto one of thoserecovery trajectories.
Um, but knowing when to opt outis a massive challenge.
So when to stop tinkering, andthat doesn't mean walk away,
that means monitor, observe,make sure that you know things
are going okay, that things areimproving their condition over
time.
So knowing when to opt in andthen but more importantly, when
(33:43):
to opt out, I think is a massivechallenge.
Thank you for the industry.
SPEAKER_00 (33:47):
Yeah, agreed, agreed, and it is that word
bravery, isn't it?
I know that we love to tinker.
In fact, early on in the in thisdiscussion, you were talking
about going to the beach.
And you know, when you go to thebeach, kids, we always dig
channels and then we put stuffin the channel to divert the
water.
Like that is just somethingevery child does.
(34:08):
So we just love engineering andtinkering.
So, yeah, sometimes saying topeople, I know Laurie who I
worked with very closely, youknow, she's out there giving
advice to farmers, she says it'salmost like they feel ripped off
when you say, just leave italone.
It's like, really?
I can just leave it?
Yep, you can just leave italone.
Yeah, um, and giving thempermission to do that and the
knowledge to do that is also Ithink really important so that
(34:31):
if they're called on it bysomeone else, they can actually
say, Well, no, this is how weactually are going to fix this
river or bring this river backto some semblance of life, um,
which is what we're trying to dowith our work up on the upper
Murumbidji.
Um such a great conversation,thank you so much.
I don't want to leave thisconversation without talking to
(34:52):
you about Antarctica.
I had no idea you'd ever been toAntarctica.
So, what did that researchinvolve?
Heavy metal contamination?
I know.
I know, I know.
SPEAKER_04 (35:01):
Completely uh nothing to do with fluvial
geomorphology whatsoever.
SPEAKER_00 (35:06):
That's perfectly fine.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (35:07):
Um but you know, what I realised was that, you
know, all of those sort ofgeneric skills really, I would
really, really, really neededthem.
Yeah, no.
Uh down to you know, survivaltactics in the in the cold
environment through to, youknow, planning, um, time
management, you know, all ofthose sorts of skills.
(35:28):
Um so it came about, I'd alwayssort of said to my colleagues,
um, look, if there's any anyopportunity to go south, I'd
love, you know, just just giveme a call, I'll be on the on the
ship.
Anyway, it was about a decadeago now, and um Damien Gore,
who's one of my colleagues, uh,he works in environmental
quality, um he was doing a lotof contaminants uh site
(35:50):
assessment work in Antarctica,and there was this opportunity
to uh go south uh for twoseasons, two summer seasons, and
do contaminated site assessment,um, but also to look at um how
to treat landfill waste.
So in Antarctica, up until Ithink it was about the 80s or
90s, um, all waste generated onstations was put into landfills
(36:16):
around the stations.
And so nowadays it's all calledRTA, return to Australia.
So any waste or any rubbishthat's that's generated is
either treated on site orreturned to Australia.
But because of that historicallegacy, there's quite a lot of
landfills and also sites aroundwhere stations had been
(36:36):
abandoned.
So Wilkes is a classic exampleof that.
It's an old station uh that'sbeen left intact essentially on
the continent.
And so we were part of theAustralian Antarctic Division
Human Impacts and RemediationTeam.
And so there were two key thingsthat we were that we were
charged with responsibility ofdoing was doing experiments on
(36:59):
um how to stabilize heavy metalsthat were running off from these
landfill sites into the marineenvironment.
And because geochemicalreactions occur differently
under really cold temperatures.
Yeah, yeah, we were doing a lotof experiments about how to uh
stabilise those heavy metals.
So that was on station at atCasey, and so we were setting up
(37:22):
drums with all of this, youknow, heavy metal waste steel
and all this other sort ofstuff, um, and then adding
secret herbs and spices and thenand and uh seeing what the
chemical reactions were andwhether we were getting any
runoff.
So that was one component, butanother component was um we
spent some time at WilkesStation, which is the abandoned
(37:43):
station, um adjacent to CaseyStation.
And in the 1960s that stationwas set up, um, and when the new
Casey station was built, Wilkeswas basically left as is, almost
with you know, plates and knivesand forks and so on on the
tables.
Oh, that was like set up to thenew station.
And so this station is stillthere and it's buried under
(38:06):
under the snow.
Um and you can see sort of theoutlines of the buildings and so
on.
So we went in, we were doing acontaminated site assessment
because all of that waste hasbasically been left in that
environment.
So we were just doing a aninventory of the uh the the
chemicals that are there, theheavy metals that are there, tr
(38:27):
testing you know the stuffthat's been left behind to see
whether it was leading to runoffof heavy metals.
And then subsequently over thelast 10 years they've thought
more effectively about how totreat some of those different uh
contaminated sites, um, youknow, using a range of different
treatment techniques.
But we were just doing thebaseline contaminated site
(38:49):
assessment.
So, yeah, that were the two mainprograms.
You know, you've sort of like,well, you're going south and you
think, wow, this pristine,beautiful, wonderful, and it is,
it's an amazing environment.
You almost can't describe it.
It's it's it's a fascinatingplace.
It's not a scary place, but youyou've got to be on your guard,
you know, the whole time.
(39:10):
Um, but here we were going inlooking at human impacts and
waste and so on in this sort oflike beautiful environment.
So um, yeah, it was it wasabsolutely awesome.
SPEAKER_00 (39:20):
There must have been some hard times as well.
How remote were you?
Like you were seriously remote.
How many people were on thestation at the same time?
SPEAKER_04 (39:28):
Um so Casey is not hugely remote.
It it's one of the stationswhere um you can fly in on the
on the plane.
Uh the first season we went downon the on the Aurora Australis,
and that was a a two-weekjourney on the Southern Ocean,
which was which I loved.
Oh look at you! Yeah, it was itwas wonderful.
(39:49):
And then you landed at at Casey.
Uh the second year we we we flewin and we and we flew out, which
is a which is an experience initself.
Um, but you know, so Casey, wewere living on on Casey Station
in the summer it can get up toabout a hundred people um on
station.
So, you know, completelyself-sufficient.
(40:10):
So, you know, everything fromcooks and and and so on to
tradies, you know, the plumbersand the electricians and then
the scientists and and so on.
So it's a whole community, andyou're completely
self-sufficient and you'recompletely reliant on each other
uh for for the whole summerseason.
Um so Casey's not particularlyremote.
Wilkes is a little bit moreremote, um, so we were a very,
(40:30):
very small team that went out tothat station.
So we had to, um, there wasmyself and and another person,
um, and we were we were basedout there at the Wilkes Hilton,
as it's as it's uh colloquiallyknown.
Um so it's one of the old hutsfrom the station out there.
So we went out on a hag, whichis one of those um like trucks
(40:52):
with the what do they call withthe tractors on them.
So they took us out there, um,they brought out our brought out
our gear and stuff on a on arubber dinghy, and we'll just
landed there um to go off and doall of our contaminated side
assessment stuff.
So very, very differentexperience.
Um completely sort of isolatedum at Wilkes.
(41:16):
And I think I always say topeople, have you ever heard
silence?
And just think about that for 30seconds, right?
People go, Oh yes, I've I'veheard silence, and you go, Well,
think about that, right?
In in our everyday lives, youknow, we've got leaves rustling,
we've got cockatoos and even thehum of electricity, right?
(41:39):
When you really, really thinkabout it, right?
So we're surrounded by noise allthe time, you know, and even
when we're out there on theriver, you know, you've got the
water and you've so there'snowhere that's really silent.
And at Wilkes, I think I cangenuinely say I heard silence
for about I don't know, 15minutes.
So it was a dead calm day.
Um, it was sort of twilightevening.
(42:01):
The penguins had, you know, shutup.
Um and I just sat there and Iwent, Oh wow, this is complete
and utter silence.
And almost to the point whereyou can hear your heart beating
and your ears just ringing.
Wow.
And you go, Wow, that's reallycool.
Yeah.
(42:22):
And so you sort of like youdon't realise until you're in
that sort of place, you know,how much noise there is in our
environment.
And and you can just feelyourself sort of like just calm
right down.
And your brain just sort oflike, you know, instead of being
on on call all the time and yourbrain going, you just go, Wow, I
can just sit here for 15minutes, completely isolating.
(42:44):
All right, completely, you know,no one no one within CUE of of
where I am.
So a little bit scary in thatregard.
Yeah.
But um, yeah, so sorts ofexperiences that are hard to
explain, I guess.
And when you come back, you getoff the plane in Hobart or you
get off the ship or whatever,and you and like you just even
(43:05):
just crossing the street, yougotta really stop and go, right,
you almost need to ramp yourselfback up in to to bring yourself
back into that environment andjust take care so you don't get
run over.
That's right.
Silly things like that.
Um, yeah, but yeah, awesomeexperience.
SPEAKER_00 (43:22):
Wow, I I just yeah, all credit to you.
That sounds incredibly brave tome.
Uh I was thinking as you weresitting there, you know, you got
to have the whole sensor sense,isn't it, sensory deprivation
tanks where you get put in atank and you float and you have
nothing around you?
Whereas you just got to, youknow, sit in the odd iceberg and
look out over the sea in thattopic.
Wow.
Yeah, without the peskypenguins, they're they're noisy
(43:45):
creatures.
Are they?
And they stink.
And they stink, yeah.
Yeah.
I often I have been to a few ofthese colonies and gone, you
know what, you really pong.
unknown (43:53):
That's right.
SPEAKER_04 (43:54):
And then the seals are going off and uh anyway, so
yeah, that was a that was anamazing experience.
SPEAKER_00 (44:02):
Uh, how's that experience um informed your
teaching, do you think?
Because you've come back and youthat your career's really, if
it's a decade ago, the last tenyears you've really progressed
in terms of you know going upthe um up to the professors at
professorial level.
Yes, I know.
Well that was a bit of asurprise.
SPEAKER_04 (44:20):
Yes, well deserved.
2018, yeah, that happened and umonly the second female professor
of geomorphology in the country,which I didn't know at the time.
Wow, so which is a bit a bitshocking really it took till
2018, but anyway.
A trailblazer?
Yes, well, only the second one.
(44:40):
Um oh look, you know, when Iwhen I was when I finished my
postdoc, um, you know, I wasgoing for a bunch of academic
positions and none of them werewere coming off.
And at that point I thought,right, that's it, I'm I'm done
with academia.
I went and actually uh studiedtowards being a high school
geography teacher.
Wow.
So I did did a lot of pedagogyuh training back then and that's
(45:03):
really that's really helped meout.
I use that all the time.
Um so you know, all the waythrough my postdoc and PhD and
then you know, through mylectureship and so on, I've
really drawn on that pedagogytraining.
I'm fascinated by how peoplelearn how they uh what they see,
what they interpret, uh the useof visuals rather than just the
(45:24):
written word is a big thing inmy teaching.
Um so you know, it's great thatI've been to Antarctica and seen
a bunch of different roomsbecause I've got a great photo
collection that you would havean amazing photo collection.
So I've really transitioned justin the last few years into
what's called active learning.
So no more lectures, you know,standing in the front of the
(45:48):
class for an hour or doing thesesort of you know, very long
practical sessions, really doingsome of that active learning,
using a whole range of differentlearning resources uh to try and
teach people because gymophologyis not an easy thing to teach.
You know, it's not it's not justa a checklist, it's not just
something that you can sort ofjust pick up through formulas or
(46:12):
equations.
There's no sort of you know,it's not because you're
observing the environment,you're observing rivers and
you're trying to interpret howthey're adjusting and what those
processes are.
Most of the time those processesare invisible because they're
not happening every day.
So trying to teach people how tomake the interpretation from
(46:32):
what they're seeing um and fromwhat they're understanding from
their either their field work orthe remote sensing work or or
whatever it is to get thatinterpretation skill to to read
the landscape, as we say, um, isreally really challenging.
And so I think from from myperspective, and it's in my
undergrad teaching and it's inmy professional short course
(46:53):
teaching, and I teachmicro-credentials now, that that
that observation, thestorytelling, and the use of the
visual part that is just really,really useful when you're trying
to explain complex concepts andget people to think about
interpretation.
It's not just about gatheringdata and hoping that the data
sort of says, yes, well that'swhat's happening.
(47:15):
It's about evaluating andinterpreting that information to
come up with that assessment.
SPEAKER_00 (47:21):
And that's about giving people the skills then to
look at these multiple lines ofevidence you were discussing,
but to also engage their othersenses.
It's sort of that touch, feel,listen, see.
You know, I I know that uh inthe Koorong um well last year um
at the Stream ManagementConference we went to uh see
Nick uh Whiterod's place that heworks at the Koorong, and he's
(47:43):
got this amazing model thatapparently is is tiny, tiny um
granules of glass, but you can syou can actually project images
onto it and move the glassaround to create different
shapes, and it can be and it canbe overlaid with topographical
information or geomorphologicalinformation, and it's
(48:03):
fascinating because you get todo that moving.
Have you got anything like thatthat you use?
SPEAKER_04 (48:08):
No, haven't haven't um got any of those things, but
yeah, I've seen those sorts ofit's probably similar to a flume
or something where you can'tlike we're just talking about
the beach, you know.
Yes, that's it, that's it.
Where you can try and, you know,you adjust things, you put your
little sticks in, you know, andand and see how the different
processes occur.
So yeah, um I haven't used thatin in my teaching because we
(48:30):
haven't got those resources, butcertainly drawn on a whole range
of of different types ofresources, yeah.
I love you know historical airphotos, uh, you know, and those
sorts of things.
They're absolute gold mine of ofof information and you can just
see it.
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah.
Um or if you're in the field,you know, and you're looking at
(48:51):
a a stack of sediments in a foldplane and you go, right, well,
how did those sediments getthere?
That's the interpretation fromthe visual to the interpretation
of thinking about process.
Yeah.
So how did those things getcreated and how are they getting
reworked or form or reformed,and how has that changed over
(49:11):
time?
That's the interpretation sortof skill that we're trying to
teach.
And not everybody can do it.
It is it can be very, verychallenging to get people to
observe and see things in thelandscape and then put that
interpretation lens on top ofit.
It can be very, very difficult.
And it takes time and practiceto sort of get that skill up.
SPEAKER_00 (49:34):
One of the things we were talking about at the
beginning before we startedrecording was about your
leadership style.
And you were talking a bit aboutsome advice that you were given.
Do you want to share that withus?
Oh dear.
SPEAKER_04 (49:47):
Um, so I've been given lots of advice over my um
career, but I'm not sure how tosay this in a non-negative way.
SPEAKER_00 (50:00):
It's not negative, just go ahead.
It's expensive.
Or at the end, but I would havebeen on a negative note.
No, no, don't you worry.
SPEAKER_04 (50:05):
But you know, early on, you know, there weren't many
uh female role models inparticular not in geomorphology
anyway, and um even in sciencesin general.
Today is actually theInternational Day of Women and
Girls in Science.
SPEAKER_00 (50:19):
Oh wow there you go.
So there you go.
Go us.
SPEAKER_04 (50:22):
Yeah, go us.
Um yeah, and and so you know, ofcourse, you know, I had mentors
and so on, and I had my sort oflike my my board, my my
committee of of mentors.
I don't have one mentor, I havethis sort of like committee of
mentors in my head that I drawon and I go, oh gee, I wonder
how they would have dealt withthat particular situation.
(50:43):
Anyway, there were you know,there was a usual sort of you
know advice that that I can'treally repeat, but you know, one
one bit of advice was um Kirsty,no matter what, just maintain
your femininity.
Yep.
Alright.
Yeah.
And I always draw back on that,you know, if I get into a
difficult situation or I feellike I'm getting a bit cranky
and grumpy or something, um, Igo, right, no, just just be
(51:07):
yourself.
Yeah, you know, um, maintainthat femininity and people can
take that or leave that, Iguess.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that was a piece of advicethat that has stuck with me over
time.
SPEAKER_00 (51:17):
And you're a strong female uh role model now.
What do you pass on to yourstudents?
SPEAKER_04 (51:24):
Oh my goodness.
Yeah, well when you put it likethat, it sort of um scares me a
little bit.
SPEAKER_00 (51:29):
Don't worry, I get scared when people tell me I'm a
leader as well.
SPEAKER_04 (51:32):
It's got that, yeah, it's sort of got that layer of
responsibility.
Yes.
Um, I don't know, what do I say?
I I say take ever or take everyopportunity when it opens up.
Okay, there's maybe noteveryone, but but you know, if
something pops up, if it even ifit's, you know, at undergrads,
you know, people saying, Oh,look, I'd really like to help
(51:53):
help out in the field if there'sany opportunities or to
volunteer for something, just tobroaden that experience, or even
just going and seeing thelandscape.
So in that time when I wasworking on the Lurdeck project
when River Styles was uh beingdeveloped, that was a like a
three-year project before I wascompetitive enough to even go
(52:13):
near a PhD.
And that provided me with anamazing opportunity to just
drive around the landscape,right, up and down the coast,
eastern seaboard, and just seeall this different types of
rivers.
And even just having thatopportunity, you know, people
won't ask if you keep saying no.
So if something's put in frontof you, you know, even if it's a
(52:35):
volunteering sort of uh thing,or going and speaking to
somebody um in a completelydifferent field or an
opportunity to just experienceand drive around the landscape,
then you know, grab it.
Yeah.
Because it all adds to that uhexperience.
You can add it on your CV, youknow, yeah, and it just builds
it builds your ability to seethe landscape, to interpret the
(52:58):
landscape, and then think abouthow all different sorts of
people interact with thatlandscape and their values and
and where they where they wherethey feel most comfortable.
SPEAKER_00 (53:09):
Yeah, I think that's part of that uh social geography
you were talking about, becausewe are social beings, aren't we?
And so you know opening yourselfup to that experience and taking
those opportunities to meetother people, see other rivers,
see other landscapes.
SPEAKER_04 (53:25):
Absolutely.
Fantastic.
And that would be it's probablya terrible thing for me to say
as a as a scientist, right?
You know, you sometimes getcritical, oh that's all a bit
too qualitative or that's all abit too, you know, no, I know
too gentlemen.
It's all science, it's justsocial science.
You're a you're a you're ageomorphologist and you're a
scientist, is that yeah, there'sa there's a there's a bit of
(53:46):
tension there sometimes, butyeah, yeah, anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (53:49):
Ultimately it is yeah, that people and nature
interaction.
Absolutely.
Well they always say rivermanagement, it's not about the
environment, it's about people.
Yep, it is definitely.
So as we come to the end of thepodcast, which has been so
enjoyable.
Oh, thank you, Pippa.
She just uh gave a good umwiggle there.
Uh there are three questionsthat we ask every guest.
(54:09):
And so the first one is do youhave a favourite river, waterway
or body of water?
Oh, of course.
You do?
Oh, that's good to know.
SPEAKER_04 (54:18):
What is it?
Um, so my favourite river is theFranklin River in Tasmania.
SPEAKER_00 (54:23):
Oh wow, yeah, that I mean, gosh, that's a good
choice.
SPEAKER_04 (54:25):
Always has been, always will be.
Yep.
And um because you know, we hada lot of family in in Tasmania,
did a lot of, you know, campingand hiking and and and other
sorts of activities in Tasmaniafor you know decades when we
were kids and stuff.
And um it was on one of thosetrips, I think we were in
(54:46):
Strawn, and um picked up thePeter Dombrovskis book and the
posters.
Yeah.
And there was one there whichwas Rock Island Bend on the
Franklin, you know, the veryfamous image from the Miriams
campaign.
And I remember I was a reallyquite small child that campaign,
right?
(55:06):
The save the Franklin Rivercampaign with Bob Brown, he's
one of my heroes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so on.
So, you know, as a as a sort ofa teenager, I didn't have a
poster of rock stars on that onmy wall.
I had the poster of Rock IslandB.
Oh wow and I've still got it.
Yep.
And um I went, I've got to gothere.
Right.
So I was studying, I hooked upon that second year course
(55:28):
called Strange Geomorphology,and I thought, I've got to go to
Rock Island Bend.
I didn't realise how remote, youknow, or what a wilderness it
was.
Anyway, but so I looked into itand I eventually um signed up
for went on two commercialrafting trips.
So I ran rafted the the fulllength of the Franklin from the
from the top end, and I'veforgotten the entry point, um,
(55:50):
right down through to the GordonRiver at the bottom end.
Yeah.
Um and I thought, right, butI've got to be fit.
Yeah.
So you know, had enough fitnessto be able to do that, um, have
enough money to do it.
Um, but just an amazingexperience.
Yeah, there's something aboutthe Franklin, it's got some sort
of mystique or it's got somesort of soul or something about
(56:13):
it, and it's got that thatfeeling about it.
And it's got all the activismand it's got the environmental
movement, and and and it's justan amazing place, and it's
remote.
Yeah.
Um, and so again, I guess it'sone of those, you know, you've
got to survive on the river.
Yes, yeah.
You've got to take care ofyourself, yes, um, as well, and
(56:33):
you've got to be you've got tobe cautious in some
circumstances, but even justseeing those places, and we got
to Rock Island Bend, and it wasit was on a sunny afternoon,
yeah, and I didn't recognise itbecause it didn't look like the
Peter Dombrovskis picture.
SPEAKER_00 (56:48):
Oh, really?
SPEAKER_04 (56:49):
Didn't have the mist.
Didn't have the mist around.
Oh wow.
And I almost missed it becausewe'd sort of like been paddling,
paddling, paddling, and thenthey went, Oh, there's Rock
Island Bend.
Oh wow.
Anyway, uh I did get a picture,which was really good.
Um, but yeah, it wasn't like thepicture, but it was still it was
still amazing.
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (57:09):
And the picture taken through your camera lens.
SPEAKER_04 (57:12):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah, it was on slide film atthe time.
Slide film at the time.
SPEAKER_00 (57:15):
Yeah.
We'll put a picture up, um,listeners of that on the show
notes so you can see see theinspirational rock bend that
Kirsty's talking about.
So I think you've probablyanswered this, but um, I'll just
check.
Where do you feel most connectedto country and to nature?
SPEAKER_04 (57:31):
Oh, anywhere that's in the bush beside a river.
SPEAKER_00 (57:34):
Yep.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's a beautiful feeling, isn'tit?
SPEAKER_04 (57:38):
Absolutely.
And just that it's so and even,you know, going and you know,
holidays are ruin ruinedforever.
Always going and looking at ariver somewhere.
Yeah.
But yeah, just sitting sittingby the river and it's just had a
calming influence.
Yeah.
It's that thing about water,isn't it?
It is, definitely.
SPEAKER_00 (57:53):
Running water.
Definitely.
Yeah.
Yeah, agreed.
Yeah.
And so finally, what drives youto do what you do?
Oh goodness.
SPEAKER_04 (58:01):
Um well, I guess I'm I'm passionate about the
environment and making adifference, living the world in
a better place than you know,when we inherited it, and we're
really just custodians.
So trying to do the best we canuh in terms of particularly, you
know, improving river health andriver condition.
(58:22):
But I also I'm driven by youknow training the next
generation as well through someof that pedagogy.
So training the next generationof of of students, but you know,
practitioners as well, and andopening their eyes to this
beautiful discipline calledgeomorphology.
SPEAKER_00 (58:40):
Yes, I I think I need to go back to uni now.
Oh well, you can come and do oneof the micro-credential unis.
Who knows?
I might do that, Kirsty, neverthough.
No plug.
We will put um information thereabout the River Styles course as
well for those of you who areinterested.
Well, um well, Kirsty's gonnaleave us now.
She's off to Science MeetsParliament.
(59:02):
And I can assure you, if youtalk with half the passion that
you have today about what youdo, you will definitely get
through to our parliamentarianshow important it is to care
about rivers and live yourtemperature.
Thank you, Red.
Thanks very much, Kirsty.
Have a great rest of your day.
(59:28):
The Australian River RestorationCentre is a charity restoring
rivers and helping others to dothe same.
You can support our work bychecking out our shop, where we
have some of the best gifts andconversation starters to help
raise awareness about restoringour rivers.
Best of all, your purchase makesa real difference.
All proceeds go directly towardsour work for restoring rivers
(59:49):
and protecting these treasuredspecies.
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