February 13, 2025 • 44 mins
Questions, comments, feedback? Tap here to send us a message!
In today's episode, Siwan sits down with Dr. Sue Pillans, a marine scientist, artist and children’s author who specialises in creative and visual communications to help people “picture their ideas”. As a graphic recorder, Sue draws discussions and presentations in real-time to visually capture and convey information, ideas and concepts. Sue has worked with over 65 organisations across Australia and the Southeast Asian region using visual storytelling to help make the complex simple and the simple compelling. Sue also combines her love of marine science and art to bring creativity into classrooms as her alter ego, “Dr. Suzie Starfish”. As a children’s author and illustrator, her picture books engage and educate children about the wonders of the ocean.
Dr. Pillans' unique ability to translate spoken words into vibrant visual stories brings the passion and commitment of river conservationists to life. As she shares her transformative path from marine scientist to visual storyteller, we explore the profound impact of visual communication, particularly when communicating with diverse audiences, including First Nations communities. From capturing complex scientific concepts to inspiring the next generation about ocean conservation, Sue's journey underscores the importance of creativity in promoting environmental awareness and cultural sensitivity. We close our conversation by discussing imaginative and fun ways to engage children in environmental education and action by using the power of storytelling to inspire change.
Learn more about Dr. Pillans' work at her website: drsuepillans.com.
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving a rating and review wherever you listen to your podcasts.
✉️ Subscribe to our newsletter (no spam, we promise!) to keep up with new episodes of the show!
🎙️ Listen to our other episodes: https://arrc.au/podcast/
🌱 Learn more about the Australian River Restoration Centre: arrc.au
Take Me to the River is an Australian River Restoration Centre podcast production, hosted by Dr. Siwan Lovett and produced by Chris Walsh, with support from the rest of the ARRC Team. ✨
If you'd like to support the Australian River Restoration Centre and our work restoring rivers and supporting others to do the same, visit our shop for some of the best gift ideas for nature-lovers. You can also make a tax-deductible direct donation to help support our the health and resilience of our rivers 🌱
We acknowledge and honour Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples as the Traditional Custodians of the country on which we work, learn, and live. We respect and learn from Elders past, present and emerging, valuing their knowledge, insights and connections to the waterways we love and care for. 🖤💛❤️
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Australian River Restoration Centre is a charity,
restoring rivers and helpingothers to do the same.
You can support our work bychecking out our shop, where we
have some of the best gifts andconversation starters.
To help raise awareness aboutrestoring our rivers, we've
worked with SouthAustralian-based artist Nina
Rapina to design mugs, tote bags, t-shirts, hoodies and jumpers,
(00:20):
all featuring our nativeAustralian wildlife.
Best of all, your purchasemakes a real difference.
All proceeds go directlytowards our work for restoring
rivers and protecting thesetreasured species.
If you're feeling generous, youcan also make a direct,
tax-deductible donation at ourwebsite.
Just $10 helps us buy buckets,gloves and spades for riverbank
(00:42):
planting, which helps promoteclean drinking water.
$25 helps us buy five nativeriver-loving plants.
That provides habitat andrefuge for platypus, frogs, fish
and birds.
All donations of any amount aregratefully accepted and they
help us achieve our mission ofprotecting and restoring
Australia's waterways.
Visit arcau.
(01:03):
Forward slash donate.
That's A-R-R-C.
Dot A-U.
Forward slash donate to learnmore.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
So Susie Starfish started 10 years ago as well.
She was actually the first partof my visual communications
business.
I started with her Basically.
I just started as a Facebookpage to introduce my love of the
oceans through art, and so Iwould put up each week a
painting that I'd done of acertain interesting marine
animal, and then I'd provide thescientific facts underneath it,
(01:33):
things like, you know, seacucumbers that you know can
vomit up their guts when apredator comes along, and how
cool's that you know.
Just to engage in a slightlydifferent way in my science
communication was you know funand colourful, I suppose.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Well, Sue, it's absolutely wonderful to have you
with us today.
I know we only met a few weeksago, but I feel like we're on
the same page, so to speak.
I hope it's the same for you.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Absolutely.
It was so wonderful to meet youand the team recently at the
Australian Stream ManagementConference and I really
appreciate the invitation to beon your podcast.
I can't wait, I'm so excited.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
So the Australian Stream Management Conference
I've always thought is one ofthe best ones because it's one
that brings togetherpractitioners who are out there
every day on the river.
And can you tell a bit abouthow you came to be there and
what your role was at thisconference of stream
practitioners?
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yes, well, I have to say the word I used to describe
that conference was amazing.
Not only, obviously, thecontent that I got to hear, but
also just the passion of thepeople there and the inspiring
work and the commitment thatthey have to trying to improve
the management of our rivers andcatchments.
It was just amazing for me and,yeah, to be invited by the team
(02:59):
the conference team was a greatinvitation.
I was very proud to be part ofthat event and, yeah, look, when
I get to hear stories like that, the drawing just sort of comes
naturally as a graphic recorder.
So it wasn't.
It was a really inspiring eventto draw out and draw attention
to.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Oh, that's great that you can say that, because
that's my tribe.
So you know we each have ourtribes and that was definitely
my tribe.
I love that conference it's Ithink I went to the first one in
1999, so I have been going fora long time and yeah yeah, it's
just one of those really joyfulgatherings of people who share
(03:37):
that passion as you said thatcommitment for rivers it's a
great word, yeah, it is.
So tell us what you were doingin your role as graphic recorder
, because some of our listenersmight not know what that even is
.
That's a very good question.
Yeah, it is.
So tell us what you were doingin your role as graphic recorder
, because some of our listenersmight not know what that even is
.
That's a very good question.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
If you haven't seen a graphic recorder before, it's a
way of visually capturinginformation and concepts in real
time, and I'm an analogue or ahand-drawn graphic recorder.
So I use pens on paper.
So I'm not a digital artist,but I do everything in real time
in front of people on a boardusing pens on the paper.
So I'm not a digital artist,but I do everything in real time
in front of people on a boardusing pens on the paper.
And so I'm there to activelylisten to the discussions,
(04:11):
whether it's presentations couldbe a workshop, it could be a
panel discussion.
Throughout this conference, wehad workshops, which you were
obviously a part of and held awonderful workshop, and then we
had keynote presentations aswell.
So I was listening to all thatinformation, all the discussions
, and then visualising thecontent through the use of words
and pictures to create a visualstory, which ended up being on
(04:34):
a large whiteboard, and theimagery was obviously all
inspired through streammanagement and all the different
topics that I was able tolisten to.
So that's what a graphicrecorder does I'm there to
listen, I draw out theinformation and then I create a
visual story for everyone to beable to look at throughout the
conference and then obviouslyhave this picture of all your
stories at the end of theconference, rather than you know
(04:56):
, lots of reports and dot pointset cetera.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
So yeah, it's just visualising information and
listeners, we will actually puta picture of what Susie created,
along with everyone there, soyou can actually see what this
looks like.
I was so excited that Sue wasgoing to be doing this, because
I actually do respond reallywell to a visual story rather
than lots and lots of facts, andso those presentations that
(05:21):
captured me at the conferencewere the ones that had lots of
photos or which had a lot ofemotion in it.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
How do you get?
Speaker 1 (05:27):
emotion into your stories.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Look, I listen because my role is more about
listening than the drawing.
The drawing is the tool that Iuse to translate and put the
information on the page.
Emotion is one of the bigthings that I listen for.
So people's voices change, youknow they're up, they're down or
they repeat certain messages,and so I'm actually if people
the more emotive you know, thebetter really, because I know
(05:52):
what's actually important tothat presenter.
We can always have PowerPointand people are talking to the
PowerPoint and you know we goalong and I'm like, oh yeah,
that's interesting, that'sinteresting.
But then the voice changes andyou can hear it and obviously
people can see it in theaudience and I'm capturing it
real time in this picture.
So, yeah, it's very importantfor me as a graphic recorder to
be listening the entire time forevery event, every session.
(06:14):
I can't be turned off.
I have to be on at all times.
And, yeah, it's very importantto listen to the people's voices
because that's what it's allabout.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
It's actually a lot like facilitation.
You know I do a lot offacilitation as well, and when
I'm facilitating you are totallyengrossed in what's happening
in the room.
So you're looking at the bodylanguage, you're looking at the
intonation, you're, you know,clocking the person in the back
corner who's hopefully not goneto sleep, or you're watching the
person with the really closedbody language who you know is
gearing up to ask a question.
(06:42):
So there's a lot of that thatyou actually also have to, I
guess, take in.
How do you cope with well, ordo you cope with like a sensory
overload, because I find myselfquite exhausted at the end of
the day when I facilitate?
Speaker 2 (06:55):
I must say that I'm definitely exhausted by the end
of the day, physically, mentally, every part of it.
Throughout the conference,though, or an event or workshop,
I'm always.
I must be primed.
I think you know you kind of,you're ready for it, and so you
know that you can't not listen.
It's like I might be a littlebit tired towards the end of the
day, and I'll be very honest asa graphic recorder, when you're
(07:16):
using a pen on paper, let's sayat quarter to five you've been
there since eight o'clock in themorning it's like don't make a
mistake.
Don't make a mistake, keeplistening.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Because I'm only human.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
I'm not a robot, so I think I'm just so attuned now
to being in the presence ofpresentations and discussions
and important information thatI'm on.
I'm ready to go and I'll beable to stop at night time and
rest again, but it certainly is.
Yeah, I would say it's a veryexhausting role, but you are so
inspired throughout the day thatI think that's what keeps me
(07:50):
going, and the food too.
So you know.
I love my food breaks.
People ask me about that too.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
I love the facilitation and I actually love
public speaking, because youhave all this anticipation
beforehand of oh, I could saythat, or can I say that in a
different way, or can I?
So there's a lot of preparationthat goes ahead of time, and I
know that you actually do a lotof prep too.
Do you want to let ourlisteners know how much?
You don't just hop up therewith your pen and start, you
(08:19):
know?
Speaker 2 (08:19):
no no, I think, and I think people do think it's just
oh, she just turned up and justhere she goes and look, every
graphic recorder is different,but we all do prepare for an
event, particularly when it's avery like a couple of days of an
event.
So in my position as an analoggraphic recorder using pen on
paper, I've as I think Iexplained this to you at the
conference I have what's calledreal estate on the page.
(08:40):
So you've got a couple of daysof a conference, you've got all
these great keynotepresentations and workshops that
you have to fit on a, let's say, 1.5 metre piece of paper and
everyone's talking about reallygreat things, but you can't
capture it all.
So my role is obviously to tellthe client at the start.
For such an amazing agenda likeI can only capture key messages
(09:01):
and repeated messages and tryand show the concepts and how
things are linked together orconnected.
And so we talk through theagenda.
I always talk through the agendawith my clients prior to so I
get an idea of the event, whatthey're trying to get out of it,
who is the audience?
The audience is very importantso that I can make sure that I'm
meeting their visual needs ofthe client and also the visual
(09:23):
needs of the audience, becausethat's what the story is
actually created for.
So, yeah, I do put a lot ofpreparation into having a look
at the agenda.
I'm a very proud science nerd,so I love looking up who's
running the event, what theiraims are, what their strategic
plans are, understanding theirbusiness, so that I can actually
provide and create a visualstory for everybody in that room
(09:45):
that relates to everybody andthey can use it time and time
again.
So, yeah, there is in my for myrole.
I do prepare quite a bit tomake sure there's enough room on
the page to capture all of thatamazing content.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
I love that idea of real estate.
That's another one that we talkabout when we're looking at
riparian management, and we talkabout the real estate for
native fish or native animals ortrees, and it's all about.
Well, they all need their littlebit of real estate.
You've got to create their homeor their habitat.
So tell me, how did you startdoing this?
(10:17):
Like you trained as a marinescientist and we're going to get
to that.
But what made you put pen topaper and decide, oh, it's a
great idea.
I'll stand up in front of awhole room of people and fill
this 1.3 metre page whereeveryone can see any mistake I
do.
It just sounds like a knifeedge for me.
It doesn't sound so good whenyou put it like that?
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Very good question.
And basically so.
I started my small creativebusiness called Picture Ideas, a
visual communications business,almost 10 years ago now.
10 years ago, I did not knowthat a graphic recorder was a
job.
I didn't know it existed, noidea.
And very quickly leading up tothe moment that I became a
(10:58):
graphic recorder, I was, youknow, a marine scientist, I was
in research, I went intogovernment and then one day I
was in a role I didn'tparticularly like and I happened
to have these creativemagazines I looked at on the
weekends and I saw this articleof this woman at a whiteboard
with a pen and she's drawing,and I remember the key words
were I actively listen and I usemy skills to draw out people's
(11:21):
stories.
And I read the article and Iwent I could do that.
I love the sound of that.
So I quit my job which is notreally me, if people know me, I
have lists and I don't reallylike a lot of risk but quit my
job and the next day I startedmy business and it's been going
like that ever since.
So for almost 10 years I'vebeen doing this role.
So yeah, no, I didn't like.
(11:43):
It's quite amazing to think youdon't know that occupation
actually exists.
And then I had quite thediverse career leading up to
that.
I really think that the reason Ican do my role as a graphic
recorder so to be able tointerpret information quickly,
synthesize information, hear thekey concepts and draw them out
is because I do have thatscientific background.
(12:03):
You know, through research andour PhDs we've always had to
synthesise and interpretinformation quickly and make
sense of it and I think that'sreally helped.
And the other side of it I'vealways done art as a hobby, so I
haven't been to art school,I've learnt on every job that
I've done.
I'm self-taught and I thinkhaving the artistic side with
(12:24):
the scientific side obviouslyhelps in my role, particularly
when I do conferences of ascientific nature where there's
where I'm quite familiar withsome of the content.
So, yeah, it's an art andscience sort of combination and
love that brought me to thisinteresting role that you've
just explained does sound quiteinteresting in front of all of
those people.
But I actually, I actually I'llhave to say I turn off when I'm
(12:46):
in really big conferences or any.
It doesn't matter what groupsetting it is, but I could be in
the room with a thousand peopledrawing live and I am so
focused on what I'm listening toI totally forget people are
behind me and I could be hummingor singing or you know, and in
my zone, when you put it likethat, we're like, oh, they can
see everything you're doing.
I'm like, oh yeah, I forgetthat.
(13:07):
But I think that's a good thingthat I'm so in tune with the
stories that are being told.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Well, it sounds to me like you're in flow.
You know that moment wheneverything seems to be going
right and I do experience thosemoments Sometimes.
Sometimes when I'm speaking orfacilitating, I know I'm in flow
and it's a wonderful feelingbecause you're just so engrossed
and you know that it's allworking.
But I think what you're sayingabout the science I was thinking
(13:33):
to myself, my goodness shecould be talking about me,
because I also trained as ascientist, social scientist, and
ended up running an AustralianRiver Restoration Centre and you
sort of go.
So how did that work?
I think it's a really goodmessage in there for anyone
listening to say look, you knowthe choices that you make.
They really just open up moreand more opportunities, I think,
(13:56):
and if you're open to that,then you can find yourself in
all sorts of weird and wonderfuland amazing places.
Oh, absolutely so.
I love that story, Thank you.
Yeah, what was the very firstconference that you did?
Speaker 2 (14:07):
What was the very first one, the very first was
for CSIRO and I was flown up toTorres Strait Island and there
was a workshop for thescientific team of CSIRO who
look after the Torres StraitIsland lobster fishery and so
they go up a couple of times ayear and they talk to all of the
(14:27):
First Nations communities therewho fish and they explain and
share the science and thescience, the fishery science for
that fishery is actually reallycomplicated.
I'm not going to pretend that Iunderstood it all because it's
quite advanced, but that was myvery first job to come in and
actually draw out the sciencefor this workshop and it was
such an amazing workshop Like Istill remember it vividly and
(14:50):
the engagement with the FirstNations communities there was
just remarkable to the pointwhere a lot of when I draw a lot
with First Nations communitiesand they're very quiet sometimes
they don't, you know, theydon't have to talk for the sake
of talking, you know.
So when it was a very sort ofquiet workshop to start with and
they were watching me draw andit's like, oh, there's, not many
(15:11):
people have seen me, obviously,in Torres Strait drawing at a
scientific workshop and slowlythroughout the day they would
come and start looking at thedrawings and you know, having a
look at how I've visuallycaptured the science of their
fishery, and at the end Iactually had some of the elders
of the community come up anddraw with me and draw their
totems and explain things to meand how that related to what I
(15:33):
was doing and that moment to me.
I just went.
This is my very first job.
I'm so excited.
I'm going to do this forever,so it was a wonderful first
experience.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Yeah, I was very lucky.
That's just an extraordinarystory.
It just makes me think about alot of the work that we're
currently doing on the UpperMurrumbidgee and on other rivers
where we're trying to work withFirst Nations people.
I just wonder whether, if wedid that visually, we'd get a
much better option or an outcomethan we would than trying to,
you know, sit in rooms and makemeeting notes.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
First Nations are the , you know know, the very first
storytellers or visualstorytellers.
So, you know, I remembergrowing up as a child having a
look at the cave drawings and Imean they've been telling
stories and visual stories sincetime began.
So to be able to engage at thatlevel where they can see it and
get it straight away, ratherthan going, oh, here's, you know
, 50-page report and here's afew scientific papers which is
fine, but you do have to, youknow, you need to relate to the
(16:28):
audience and visual storytelling, to me, is so powerful that it
relates to any audience if youcan capture the information in a
relatable way.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Oh, it's fantastic.
As you're saying that, I'mthinking about this
extraordinary experience I hadup in Karratha on the Dampier
Peninsula, and my brother-in-lawis an archaeologist, oh wow.
And he took me out to see thesecave.
They're stone and written inyeah, it's written, but there's
it's carved into the rock andthere's a particular image of
(16:59):
someone who's obviously come offa boat with a big hat and you
can just tell it's peoplelanding and local people just
drawing this really significantevent.
And it's incredible.
And when you get your eye inall over this Burrutt Peninsula,
on this really red red rock,are stories, like it's just a
(17:20):
living story.
And you walk, oh, look, there'sa fish or there's a dolphin or
there's a, and it's everywhere.
It's just and it's so differentfrom the dot paintings that we
often see, but it's very muchthat visual storytelling.
This is what's happened here.
This is where we're going, thisis what we're doing and it's
still there.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
I hadn't made that connection before.
Yeah, no, visual storytellersamazing.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Really storytellers Amazing, really, really good.
So we need to understand, then,how the lady sitting in front
of me with this beautiful seadragon on her top there
obviously marine.
Yes, how did a marine scientistend up being a visual
storyteller?
Oh gosh.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yeah, again, good question.
That's a long time ago.
I think I finished my PhD in2006.
So I've always had an affinitywith nature.
I grew up in regionalQueensland, where you're
climbing trees and going to thebeach, and I think I was like
three or four and I learned toswim at the beach.
I just jumped in and off, Iwent.
My parents were there, by theway, that's good to know.
(18:18):
Yeah, and then I like to addthat in because some people are
like, oh, that's a bit dangerous.
So, yeah, always had thataffinity with nature, loved the
environment.
My very first time seeing theGreat Barrier Reef was on our
September school holidays.
I was 11 years old.
Mum and Dad took us up toCairns Off.
We went in a big boat, jumpedin the water and I think I can
(18:40):
still remember just going.
What is this?
There's a whole underwaterworld under the water here.
That's, you know, it's bustlingwith life, it's got color, all
the noises popping and crackling, and I just fell in love with
oceans.
It's just that was it like?
That's, that's my thing, that'smy saltwater heart.
That I like to say.
(19:01):
And so from there I always, youknow, when you're growing, what
do you want?
To be a ballerina or anastronaut or a fighter pilot and
I always I think I always said,oh, marine biologists be really
good, but I didn't really knowwhat that meant.
So then I went and did you knowscience degree and honours and
a PhD in marine science and justfell in love with it really.
But then I also then movedthrough to government and I
utilised all of my scientificbackground.
(19:23):
But then I moved into differentdepartments and and certainly
did more things like regionaldevelopment, industry
development, but the marinescience has always been my
passion and so, yeah, to moveinto that whole visual
storytelling, I did create analter ego, dr Susie Starfish.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Yes, we're going to come to her.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Yeah, so it was my way to engage with a different
audience through children, whereI thought I could make a really
big difference, to start youngand share my love of the ocean
with them through stories,through words and pictures,
through colour and having fun.
And so I think that's where myjourney has landed, where I can
still use all of my love ofmarine science through my
(20:03):
engagement as Dr Susie Starfish,but then using all of my marine
science and learnings to applyto graphic recording in terms of
being able to synthesise andinterpret information.
So that's my little journey.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
What was your PhD?
Speaker 2 (20:16):
on the effectiveness of no-take marine reserves in
Moreton Bay Marine Park.
So, to make that simple, dogreen zones work in a marine
setting?
Yes, and what did you discover?
Speaker 1 (20:26):
The answer is yes.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
That's a good answer to have.
Yes, it's not a rocket sciencePhD, but no one had actually,
you know, gone out and got theempirical evidence about green
zones in that marine park atthat time.
And so it was a great PhD, veryhands on.
And then I was lucky enough, orfortunate enough, to then move
into the EnvironmentalProtection Agency straight after
my PhD, where they actuallyreviewed the Moton Bay Marine
(20:50):
Park zoning plan, and so myscience was actually able to be
used and applied on the groundto help make actual new policy
decisions for that marine park.
And one of my most favourite andproud moments, I suppose, was
it wasn't just me, it was a teameffort and it was political
effort.
I'm not saying it was just me,but it did help to have the
science behind those decisions.
(21:11):
And we went from, you know,less than half a percent green
zone to almost 16% in the endover a three or four year period
of reviewing the plan.
So, yeah, that was to me thatwas a really proud moment.
But I've only got one zoningplan review in me.
I think that's enough for alifetime.
But you got one zoning planreview in me.
I think that's enough for alifetime, but it certainly gave
me a very good introduction togovernment and policy and
(21:32):
planning.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Let me tell you it's also a really good like.
Again, the parallels are quiteinteresting.
So mine was, my PhD was on thecorporatisation of research and
development in Australia in therural sector, and that was
something that was.
You know, it was a process ofadministrative change and of
governance, and then I ended upactually working in one of the
corporations that I wasreviewing a bit similar to you,
(21:56):
like working in the organisationthat's going to make the policy
.
But I think that the commonalityhere is also that you can take
your science and do your science, but unless you're able to
communicate it and put it into apolicy context, it's not going
to make much difference.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
And I constantly have scientists saying to me, why
don't they just get it?
Like we keep telling them thatthis has to happen or they'll
say, right, sure, and I've donethis bit of science.
Can you now give it togovernment?
It's like, well, no right place, right time.
Understand the context.
Yes, with some of your graphicrecording that you've done of
conferences, can you tellwhether what you're putting onto
(22:36):
the page is going to get usedin a way that's actually going
to make it really effective bythe sort of conference that
you're at?
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Yeah, that's a good question.
I can tell sometimes if theclient well, they usually tell
me what they want to use it for,and so we have that discussion
in that preparation phase that Ispoke about earlier, where I
actually say to them look, I cancreate this visual in a number
of different ways so you can getthe most out of it.
Or we just do a big picturestory and you put it into your
strategic plan, you know, or theannual report, and that's that.
(23:05):
So I actually make it.
I make it quite known to theclient that if I draw it a
certain way, like I leave whitespaces, let's say and I'm
showing the connection betweenyour themes that you can
actually cut out thoseindividual stories and use it in
different ways.
So I think a lot of the time theclient does really want to make
the most of this visual.
They've gone to the effort ofgetting a graphic recorder in.
(23:26):
They've had meetings andplanning meetings with me.
I'm in the room with theirstakeholders, which some of the
conversations and topics arequite controversial at times.
So it's, you know, you want tohave that independent which is
me in the room, who's going tobe very mindful of the subject
matter.
So I think in most cases, I dosee the picture come to life and
I can see how it can be used.
(23:48):
It's really then up to theclient how and if they use it,
because everyone's busy and Ihear that a lot.
So it's it really is up to theclient how they want to use that
story.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Is there any subject matter or conference that you
won't visually?
Speaker 2 (24:02):
record?
No, I've never come across thatso far.
I think anything that you, anygroup discussion, any
presentation can be drawn, itreally comes down to if it's
really sensitive matter.
So I've done things like livedexperience of, you know, suicide
.
I've listened to a lot of FirstNations important stories that
they have to share, and so it'sjust being very sensitive to the
(24:23):
content and ensuring, again inthis preparation phase with my
clients, what sort of visuals doyou not want to see?
Because sometimes there arevery graphic discussions.
So I'm very yeah, again, I'mjust very sensitive to the
content.
I've never not been able todraw something, but yeah, that's
a really good question though.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Yeah, it's one of those ones where you sort of,
yeah, I sometimes get asked todo things and I think, oh, am I
the right person to do that?
Often with First Nationsactually, I get asked.
I say, well, I'm not surethat's my role, but can you tell
me why you would want me to dothat?
It's a bit like you're sayingwhy and how do you want to be
able to use this visualrecording?
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Absolutely, and particularly with First Nations
communities.
My very first question is dothe First Nations communities
you are working with know onethat I will be involved?
Two, are they happy for me tobe involved?
And three, are they okay for meto utilise some of their First
Nations drawings or imagery andsymbols, or would you like it to
be?
It's from you know, dr SuePillans, I'm a white woman.
(25:24):
I'm going to draw it the way Isee it.
So I'm very upfront about that,because I've had instances
where the client and the FirstNations have not told, have not
shared, that I was in the roomor coming along and I'm
interpreting things slightlydifferent to what the First
Nations would want.
So my very first question nowfor those sort of projects is
what do the First Nationscommunities are they happy with?
(25:45):
Are they comfortable with?
What do the First Nationscommunities are they happy with?
Are they comfortable with, andare they okay to me to utilise
some of the imagery or not?
So yeah, I think it's veryimportant to have those
conversations up front.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
It's also about protecting yourself, I think you
know, because you know you'vegot to be mindful of the role
that you're playing, because youknow you're invited into a
group or an organisation.
They probably know each otherbetter than you know them.
But it's about being reallyclear on your role, isn't it?
So that they know exactly whyyou're there.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Yeah, that's a really good point, and particularly
everyone like I'm in a business,I run a business.
I want to make sure that I makemyself proud and I do a really
good job.
And, as I said before, withthis preparation phase, I
suppose some clients aren't usedto me coming and asking 60,000
questions, but again, I need toyes, you're right protect myself
but also meet the visual needsof the client, and I don't know
(26:34):
that if I can't talk to youabout it, so I might be a little
bit much for some people, butI'm so dedicated to the client
and their visual needs that I'mgoing to do the so I can do the
very best job for that clientand the audience that they're
trying to connect with andengage with.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
So, sue, do you think people trust pen and paper more
than they might trust someonewho's doing a digital or an
artificially intelligentgenerated image?
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Very good question and very topical right now,
shuan.
Look, I think it's a matter ofpreference these days, but I do
have to say that having a humanbeing or myself as an analogue
recorder in a room, pen on paper, I'm right there in front of
you, I'm not making things up, Ithink you can trust that and
obviously I'm there if I make amistake or whatever.
(27:22):
It's very humanistic, right.
So everyone's a human, we'renot robots.
But in saying that a digitalrecorder is also in the audience
, uh, they're sitting there andthey're actually displaying what
they're drawing on a big screen, so you can see everything all
of the time.
I just think sometimes it's alittle bit more humanistic.
Um, when an analog or someonelike myself is there on pen and
paper on a big board, it's a bigpicture story.
(27:43):
People can be involved in it.
They can come up and have alook at it.
They can point at things and go, oh, what about this?
And oh, look at the way youdrew that.
Or you really listened to me.
And I'm like, yes, I did.
That's why I'm here, and sopeople can interact and connect
with the drawing physically,which I think you know.
It's a connection, it's anengagement, it's trust.
(28:09):
And then when we're talkingabout things like AI, I have no
problem with AI, but I can't seehow a robot could be a human
and I can't see how they couldget the humanistic tones, how
people are speaking, theemotions and interpret that
these days.
Even with machine learning, Ithink it would take some years
for there to be, let's say, arobotic graphic recorder.
Good luck to them because theywouldn't have to take breaks
like I do.
But I think having the human inthe room is building trust and
(28:29):
a connection with that audienceand I really think it's a
preference thing for whatclients want, and I do see that
clients really do want a lot ofdigital drawings these days.
I just don't do that medium.
I prefer pen on paper.
It's just what I've always doneand I love the feeling and I
love the look and I really justthe engagement of that audience
with, with this visual storythat you can, you can almost
(28:50):
touch if well, you can actually,but I prefer you don't while
I'm drawing.
But yeah, that's to answer that.
I hope I answered your questionthere, joanne yeah, no, no,
that's absolutely right.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
And and as you were speaking, I was thinking about
spontaneity even though you doall this preparation, there must
be moments where it's like, oh,I can, I can add that in oh,
absolutely, when you're actuallyin situ.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
Oh, it happens all the time.
It's like oh, oh.
And the reason I love that youasked that question is the oh
moments, this real estate on thepage that I discussed earlier.
So you might have seen, at theconference I use a lot of
post-it notes and so the post-itnote represents the oh moment.
That's so good, but will I haveenough room?
(29:29):
So I actually jot down thatreally important moment and I
put it on my post-it note andthen I'm still trying to design
and fit in all this content andso I use that as a placeholder
throughout conferences,particularly when there's a lot
of information.
So some of the conferences I dowith universities will have a
full day and there'll be, let'ssay, 30 to 40 five-minute
presentations, one after theother, after the other, after
the other, and it's just, it'sso full on, and so I've got like
(29:50):
100 poster notes and then inthe breaks I will then, you know
, catch up and draw all thatreally important oh moment out.
So, yeah, the spontaneity isit's a big thing and I get
excited by it, but I also oh,I'm going to catch up, hang on,
hang on.
What did you say again?
So that's why you have to be onall the time.
That's why we get exhausted, Isuppose, but it's an exciting
(30:10):
moment as well, so yeah, goodquestion.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
It sounds exciting.
It does sound like you alsohave to manage that, that
overwhelm of oh my god, I'veheard so many good things.
Which things do I use and andyou don't want to, you know,
miss anything, but at the sametime you must keep a, keep a.
I guess this is part of thisanalytical brain that you're
bringing to it.
What's the central theme thatwe're trying to pull out?
(30:35):
So, although that's a nice tohave, this is actually more
important.
Is that kind of how you gothrough it.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
That's exactly how I go through it and that's why
those post-it notes, for me, aresuch an important tool, and one
of my favourite things tocapture, I must say, are those
beautiful quotes.
Sometimes in presentations andworkshops, there's just that
moment and you say that's goingin, that's not not going to go
in.
I'm putting the pen on thepaper right now.
Everything else can work aroundthat and sometimes that's all
people will see when they'relooking at this visually.
(31:00):
You can see it throughout thecoffee breaks, et cetera, and
lunches.
They'll come up and they'llpoint and I'm busy, you know,
trying to catch up, but I canhear it and to hear the people's
voices and their reaction.
Remember that, oh, that was sogood.
And then it links to this oneover here when we said that in
the morning session.
And so it's.
I think it's, yeah, it's.
It's such a good feeling toknow that I've captured
(31:21):
someone's story and someone'sexperience in an accurate way
which they're really happy tosee on the page.
So it's yeah, it's an importantrole, I think, and one that is
very independent.
I probably haven't mentionedthat enough that you can't bring
your own bias in.
It doesn't matter how much Iprepare, it's what I hear on the
day, and the other flip side,when you've said there's so much
information.
Also, when people talk doesn'tmean they're saying a lot of
(31:44):
things too, so you just have toto keep.
They do say a lot of things,but I can't capture everything
they say, so I am waiting forthe oh moment and um, that's
always the most exciting partthat's so great.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Do you keep a record of all the visual stories that
you've done like?
Do you have like a portfolio ofall these different conferences
?
Speaker 2 (32:04):
yes, so I keep.
I keep photos of everything,but the client keeps the
original artwork to digitize andreproduce how they want,
whether they put on a mug or upin a wall Wall art I've had a
lot of wall art happen over thelast few years Mugs and t-shirts
.
Yeah, no, I keep a portfoliowhich is all on my website.
Every conference and event I do, I put that up as my visual CV,
let's just say, because if youdon't know it and you can't
(32:33):
really understand it until yousee it and that's why I have a
few time-lapse videos thatclients have done too of
actually the progression over acouple of days of a conference
or a workshop you can see thestories come to life through pen
and paper, which I find areally important tool to
communicate what I do as well.
If you haven't seen me, youwouldn't even know I exist.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Yeah, that's right.
That's right.
Yeah, I did look through someof those and I really like how
sometimes you just use a reallycontrolled palette of colour,
whereas on others it's lots ofcolours that come in.
And I mean, I love lots ofcolour as well, and so I was
particularly drawn to the partof the website where we actually
(33:04):
meet Susie Starfish, dr SusieStarfish.
So there's three books that Isaw there and they are just
stunningly beautiful.
And then there's also thisamazing mermaid there yourself
in a very lovely glitterycostume.
So tell me about this.
She's not even an alter ego, isshe?
(33:24):
But you're out there talking tokids, so you're actually
getting both ends of thespectrum, I'm feeling.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
When did Susie?
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Starfish make her appearance in her first book.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Yes, so Susie Starfish started 10 years ago as
well.
She was actually the first partof my visual communications
business.
I started with her, yeah, soshe started, and basically I
just started as a Facebook pageto introduce my love of the
oceans through art, and so Iwould put up each week a
painting that I'd done of acertain interesting marine
animal and I'd provide thescientific facts underneath it,
things like, you know, seacucumbers that you know can
(34:01):
vomit up their guts when apredator comes along, and how
cool's that you know.
Just to engage in a slightlydifferent way, my my science
communication was, you know, funand colourful, I suppose, and
so I started that.
And then I started basicallytrying to create a series of
children's picture books aboutthe ocean.
And my books are slightlydifferent because I'm from a
very scientific background andmy drawings are quite scientific
(34:22):
.
They're not whimsical, let'ssay.
They're very you know that's afish and that's a crab and
that's, you know what it is iswhat it is when you see it, but
it is full of colour and it isfull of life and it has this
scientific background behind it.
And the reason I actuallystarted the series of children's
picture books is becausethroughout my PhD, I was sort of
needed a bit of a stress relief.
So I decided to startwatercolour classes and so I
(34:45):
would go each week to thiswonderful group of ladies who
were retired I was not and theywould talk about their trips to
Tuscany and they would, you know, paint Tuscan scenes and
poppies.
And here I was, you know, first, second year of my PhD, talking
about, so, about the mud crab,did you know?
And I'd talk about their lifecycle and you know, when you
catch them, you do this andyou're in the mud and they're
(35:07):
like, wow, that's different.
And I'd be painting seahorsesand fish and tuna.
And over a number of years ofhearing all of these stories, my
art teacher who was amazing andI was still in contact with her
today she went Susie, how aboutyou write and illustrate some
children's picture books aboutall of these wonderful things
that happen in the ocean?
(35:30):
And I went oh, what a great idea.
So I started and it took me, Ithink, six years for my very
first book to come out, becausemy very first book called the
Great Barrier Thief, so that'sall about climate change and
coral bleaching on our reef.
I couldn't think of a positiveend to the story and with
children's picture books, notonly do you have to empower and
engage and excite children, youneed to give them a positive
outcome.
You can't just say, oh, thereef's dead and it's dying, and
(35:50):
that's not right and that's nothopeful.
So I'm all about positivestorytelling and I did find a
way to illustrate and drawattention to the issue, with it
being a hopeful ending.
So that was my first one andthen after that I ended up
getting a contract for two morebooks after that.
So I have a series of three now.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
And one.
It involves an itchy fish.
What's that one?
Speaker 2 (36:12):
about.
Oh, so my latest book, whichwas released this year, is
called Roger the Wrasse and theItchy Fishes, which is actually
illustrating cleaning stationson the Great Barrier Reef where
this tiny little fish calledRoger, who's real, goes around
and cleans all these really bigfish turtles, manta rays,
gropers, etc.
On his cleaning station, and itreally there's two things that
(36:34):
I'm trying to illustrate here.
One is symbiosis, where thistiny little fish takes all that,
let's say the itches off fishesand gets a feed, and then the
fishes and the turtles don'thave itches anymore, so they
feel very comfortable.
But it also shows, I think,that no matter how small you are
, you can create and do great,great things.
You can achieve great thingswhich is exactly what you're
which is what your Australian umrestoration centre does, is
(36:57):
this small mighty team you know.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
So there you go.
I love that you described as asmall and mighty.
Someone was saying somethingabout the other day, about my
sort of vertical uh, lack ofvertical height.
I I suppose that's what you'dsay and I said, yes, but I've
been told I'm small and mighty,so I'll take that Absolutely yes
, small and mighty is great.
So, sue, we can't leave ourlisteners not knowing about the
(37:22):
middle book in the series.
So tell me about that one.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
So the middle book is Cranky Frankie and the Oceans
of Trash, which is obviouslyabout plastic pollution and
marine debris, and she's afeisty little porcupine fish
that goes on a journey, andagain with a hopeful ending, of
how we can all help to clean upour oceans together.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
Oh, fantastic, that's great, and I do think hope is
incredibly important.
I have interviewed other peopleworking in the environment
sector and I've said you knowhow do you keep doing this?
And they said well, if youdon't have hope, then you've got
despair.
What's the point of?
Speaker 2 (37:54):
living if you're in complete despair, and I do.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
You know it is hard because I know that for a lot of
young people, like my son's, 22, and a lot of his friends are
saying, oh my God, you guys,you're leaving with this big,
you know mess sort of thing.
I'm saying well, actually we'redoing a lot to recognise that
and to set you up so that we cando as much positive as we can.
So I'm really pleased thatSusie is still writing and do
(38:21):
you still get dressed up in yourcostume and go into schools.
Yes, I love a good costume.
So do I.
I love it.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
It's the best way to walk into a classroom, to be
honest, or a library or akindergarten when straight away,
the children can see.
So I have a dress that's madeof the ocean, and then I also
have this new mermaid outfit,which you know has lights and
things, and then I also have atutu full of marine debris that
I've collected over the last fewyears, which is just full of
plastics which children cantouch and feel, and I'm like so
(38:50):
the dress is actually whatactually washes up on our
beaches and we can talk abouteach piece and say where do you
think this came from?
And they're like what do youmean?
This is all on our beach, thisis in the ocean.
I'm like, yes, so it's reallytouch and feel, but it's also I
grab their attention as soon asI walk in the room and the dress
sometimes, I think, is a bitmore exciting than Susie
Starfish, but that's okay, I'vegot their attention and then we
(39:17):
can dive into the storiestogether and then we follow it
up with art activities toreinforce the science they've
learnt through art activities,to make it a bit clearer.
So it's just a joy.
To be honest, I love it.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
Yeah, you see their faces light up and it's just so
nice.
It's beautiful to be talking atthat age, before adults become
really lame.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
Yes, and you know it's really nice, I agree.
I would far rather, like I said,I thought I could make a bigger
difference with my oceanoptimism, starting with the
young ones.
And then they have theirconversations with their parents
and their families because theydon't buy the books.
Adults have to buy the booksand there's nothing better when
(40:00):
I, you know, will get a messagefrom a parent through the child
to say so.
We heard that Dr Susie Starfishwas in the classroom today and
apparently we need to put allour rubbish in the recycling bin
, like our plastics, becauseturtles can ingest plastics and
they might get sick and,unfortunately, they might die.
So thank you, dr Susie Starfish, for, you know, providing that
(40:20):
education through my, you know,six-year-old child, which is
always wonderful, so greatfeedback, and you can make a
difference, you know, throughthat storytelling.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
Yeah, we're about to embark on a similar sort of
approach.
Up around the Cooma area and inthe Snowy Mountains we have a
tiny little fish called thestocky galaxius which is
threatened, and we're wantingpeople to care about the fish,
but we actually don't want themto go and find them.
We actually, you know they needto be left alone.
So we're working out how do weconvey that, and it's often
(40:52):
better, I think, to do thatthrough kids, who can then go
and talk to their parents.
The neighbourhood for thisstocky Galaxus is one that you
know.
You really don't want the troutmoving in.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
That's it.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
yes, so it's that sort of a conversation, rather
than going to trout fishermenand saying, yes, you know, we
don't necessarily want as manytrout, which could be a very
different reaction yeah, andwhat I say, what we're trying to
do, I agree and what I.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
why I do?
What I do is if I think ifpeople can understand or
children can understand, a bitmore about the environment, a
bit more about oceans, theymight fall in love with it.
If they care about it, they'remore likely to want to protect
and look after it.
So it's, you know, it'sstarting those conversations,
you know, pointing at things,the colourful things in the book
, talking through those sorts ofthings, understanding all these
, the diversity on the reef, forexample, so that my last book
(41:38):
that I was talking about is allabout this drawing attention to
biodiversity, the importance ofit, and that's through colour
and storytelling.
So I agree with yeah, I thinkthat's wonderful if you can
start young and have thoseimportant conversations in a
positive, positive storytellingway.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
So, sue, it's been wonderful talking to you today,
and, as we come to the end ofthe conversation, we have three
questions that we like to askour guests.
Now, I know you're a big marineocean person, so I suspect I
already know what the answer isto this, but do you have a
favourite river or waterway orbody of water that you just love
?
Speaker 2 (42:14):
I love that and, look , I love all rivers and
waterways but, as I said, I havea saltwater heart.
So, yeah, no, the beach, andyou know the ocean and where I
often go to, rainbow Beach isprobably one of my most
favourite waterways.
Speaker 1 (42:27):
Yes, fantastic.
And where do you feel mostconnected to country and to
nature?
Speaker 2 (42:33):
I think, look, I try and walk on the beach and in our
national parks pretty much asmuch as possible and I think I
feel really connected when I'mthere and I'm just looking at
the water, just walking throughthe national park.
I think it's the most amazingway to be connected to nature
and I what I call is my datewith nature.
So I love it's the most amazingway to be connected to nature
and what I call is my date withnature.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
So I love it.
Oh, I love that.
Date with nature is a great wayto describe it.
Yeah, make a date with nature.
Oh, that's a lovely idea.
And the final question is and Ithink it's all come through in
the discussion that we've hadtoday but what does drive you to
do what you do?
Speaker 2 (43:08):
Yeah, that's a really good question.
I think, being able to tellpeople's stories in a unique way
which engages with them andothers in a way that you can't
really do any other way, I thinkpen on paper.
Can you imagine these days, inthe world of digital technology,
pen on paper can be thatpowerful?
So that's why I do what I do.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
Yeah, fantastic.
Well, thank you so much.
It's been such a wonderfulconversation and I know that
we'll continue to have many moreand, for our listeners, we will
put a whole lot of informationfor you about Sue and, of course
, susie Starfish on the shownotes that you can go and look
up.
So thanks again, susie, andhave a great rest of your day.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
Thank you so much for having me, you small mighty
team.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
You can subscribe to Take Me to the River.
Wherever you get your podcastsVisit arrcau forward slash
podcast to learn more.
That's arrcau forward slashpodcast to learn more.
That's arrcau forward slashpodcast.
We acknowledge and respectAboriginal and Torres Strait
Islander peoples as thetraditional and continuing
(44:20):
custodians of the country andthe rivers on which we live,
learn, love and play.
We respect and learn fromelders past, present and
emerging, valuing theirknowledge, insights, cultures
and connections to the waterwayswe all love and care for.
The Australian River Restoration Centre is a charity,
restoring rivers and helpingothers to do the same.
You can support our work bychecking out our shop, where we
have some of the best gifts andconversation starters.
To help raise awareness aboutrestoring our rivers, we've
worked with SouthAustralian-based artist Nina
Rapina to design mugs, tote bags, t-shirts, hoodies and jumpers,
(00:20):
all featuring our nativeAustralian wildlife.
Best of all, your purchasemakes a real difference.
All proceeds go directlytowards our work for restoring
rivers and protecting thesetreasured species.
If you're feeling generous, youcan also make a direct,
tax-deductible donation at ourwebsite.
Just $10 helps us buy buckets,gloves and spades for riverbank
(00:42):
planting, which helps promoteclean drinking water.
$25 helps us buy five nativeriver-loving plants.
That provides habitat andrefuge for platypus, frogs, fish
and birds.
All donations of any amount aregratefully accepted and they
help us achieve our mission ofprotecting and restoring
Australia's waterways.
Visit arcau.
(01:03):
Forward slash donate.
That's A-R-R-C.
Dot A-U.
Forward slash donate to learnmore.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
So Susie Starfish started 10 years ago as well.
She was actually the first partof my visual communications
business.
I started with her Basically.
I just started as a Facebookpage to introduce my love of the
oceans through art, and so Iwould put up each week a
painting that I'd done of acertain interesting marine
animal, and then I'd provide thescientific facts underneath it,
(01:33):
things like, you know, seacucumbers that you know can
vomit up their guts when apredator comes along, and how
cool's that you know.
Just to engage in a slightlydifferent way in my science
communication was you know funand colourful, I suppose.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Well, Sue, it's absolutely wonderful to have you
with us today.
I know we only met a few weeksago, but I feel like we're on
the same page, so to speak.
I hope it's the same for you.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Absolutely.
It was so wonderful to meet youand the team recently at the
Australian Stream ManagementConference and I really
appreciate the invitation to beon your podcast.
I can't wait, I'm so excited.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
So the Australian Stream Management Conference
I've always thought is one ofthe best ones because it's one
that brings togetherpractitioners who are out there
every day on the river.
And can you tell a bit abouthow you came to be there and
what your role was at thisconference of stream
practitioners?
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yes, well, I have to say the word I used to describe
that conference was amazing.
Not only, obviously, thecontent that I got to hear, but
also just the passion of thepeople there and the inspiring
work and the commitment thatthey have to trying to improve
the management of our rivers andcatchments.
It was just amazing for me and,yeah, to be invited by the team
(02:59):
the conference team was a greatinvitation.
I was very proud to be part ofthat event and, yeah, look, when
I get to hear stories like that, the drawing just sort of comes
naturally as a graphic recorder.
So it wasn't.
It was a really inspiring eventto draw out and draw attention
to.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Oh, that's great that you can say that, because
that's my tribe.
So you know we each have ourtribes and that was definitely
my tribe.
I love that conference it's Ithink I went to the first one in
1999, so I have been going fora long time and yeah yeah, it's
just one of those really joyfulgatherings of people who share
(03:37):
that passion as you said thatcommitment for rivers it's a
great word, yeah, it is.
So tell us what you were doingin your role as graphic recorder
, because some of our listenersmight not know what that even is
.
That's a very good question.
Yeah, it is.
So tell us what you were doingin your role as graphic recorder
, because some of our listenersmight not know what that even is
.
That's a very good question.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
If you haven't seen a graphic recorder before, it's a
way of visually capturinginformation and concepts in real
time, and I'm an analogue or ahand-drawn graphic recorder.
So I use pens on paper.
So I'm not a digital artist,but I do everything in real time
in front of people on a boardusing pens on the paper.
So I'm not a digital artist,but I do everything in real time
in front of people on a boardusing pens on the paper.
And so I'm there to activelylisten to the discussions,
(04:11):
whether it's presentations couldbe a workshop, it could be a
panel discussion.
Throughout this conference, wehad workshops, which you were
obviously a part of and held awonderful workshop, and then we
had keynote presentations aswell.
So I was listening to all thatinformation, all the discussions
, and then visualising thecontent through the use of words
and pictures to create a visualstory, which ended up being on
(04:34):
a large whiteboard, and theimagery was obviously all
inspired through streammanagement and all the different
topics that I was able tolisten to.
So that's what a graphicrecorder does I'm there to
listen, I draw out theinformation and then I create a
visual story for everyone to beable to look at throughout the
conference and then obviouslyhave this picture of all your
stories at the end of theconference, rather than you know
(04:56):
, lots of reports and dot pointset cetera.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
So yeah, it's just visualising information and
listeners, we will actually puta picture of what Susie created,
along with everyone there, soyou can actually see what this
looks like.
I was so excited that Sue wasgoing to be doing this, because
I actually do respond reallywell to a visual story rather
than lots and lots of facts, andso those presentations that
(05:21):
captured me at the conferencewere the ones that had lots of
photos or which had a lot ofemotion in it.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
How do you get?
Speaker 1 (05:27):
emotion into your stories.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Look, I listen because my role is more about
listening than the drawing.
The drawing is the tool that Iuse to translate and put the
information on the page.
Emotion is one of the bigthings that I listen for.
So people's voices change, youknow they're up, they're down or
they repeat certain messages,and so I'm actually if people
the more emotive you know, thebetter really, because I know
(05:52):
what's actually important tothat presenter.
We can always have PowerPointand people are talking to the
PowerPoint and you know we goalong and I'm like, oh yeah,
that's interesting, that'sinteresting.
But then the voice changes andyou can hear it and obviously
people can see it in theaudience and I'm capturing it
real time in this picture.
So, yeah, it's very importantfor me as a graphic recorder to
be listening the entire time forevery event, every session.
(06:14):
I can't be turned off.
I have to be on at all times.
And, yeah, it's very importantto listen to the people's voices
because that's what it's allabout.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
It's actually a lot like facilitation.
You know I do a lot offacilitation as well, and when
I'm facilitating you are totallyengrossed in what's happening
in the room.
So you're looking at the bodylanguage, you're looking at the
intonation, you're, you know,clocking the person in the back
corner who's hopefully not goneto sleep, or you're watching the
person with the really closedbody language who you know is
gearing up to ask a question.
(06:42):
So there's a lot of that thatyou actually also have to, I
guess, take in.
How do you cope with well, ordo you cope with like a sensory
overload, because I find myselfquite exhausted at the end of
the day when I facilitate?
Speaker 2 (06:55):
I must say that I'm definitely exhausted by the end
of the day, physically, mentally, every part of it.
Throughout the conference,though, or an event or workshop,
I'm always.
I must be primed.
I think you know you kind of,you're ready for it, and so you
know that you can't not listen.
It's like I might be a littlebit tired towards the end of the
day, and I'll be very honest asa graphic recorder, when you're
(07:16):
using a pen on paper, let's sayat quarter to five you've been
there since eight o'clock in themorning it's like don't make a
mistake.
Don't make a mistake, keeplistening.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Because I'm only human.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
I'm not a robot, so I think I'm just so attuned now
to being in the presence ofpresentations and discussions
and important information thatI'm on.
I'm ready to go and I'll beable to stop at night time and
rest again, but it certainly is.
Yeah, I would say it's a veryexhausting role, but you are so
inspired throughout the day thatI think that's what keeps me
(07:50):
going, and the food too.
So you know.
I love my food breaks.
People ask me about that too.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
I love the facilitation and I actually love
public speaking, because youhave all this anticipation
beforehand of oh, I could saythat, or can I say that in a
different way, or can I?
So there's a lot of preparationthat goes ahead of time, and I
know that you actually do a lotof prep too.
Do you want to let ourlisteners know how much?
You don't just hop up therewith your pen and start, you
(08:19):
know?
Speaker 2 (08:19):
no no, I think, and I think people do think it's just
oh, she just turned up and justhere she goes and look, every
graphic recorder is different,but we all do prepare for an
event, particularly when it's avery like a couple of days of an
event.
So in my position as an analoggraphic recorder using pen on
paper, I've as I think Iexplained this to you at the
conference I have what's calledreal estate on the page.
(08:40):
So you've got a couple of daysof a conference, you've got all
these great keynotepresentations and workshops that
you have to fit on a, let's say, 1.5 metre piece of paper and
everyone's talking about reallygreat things, but you can't
capture it all.
So my role is obviously to tellthe client at the start.
For such an amazing agenda likeI can only capture key messages
(09:01):
and repeated messages and tryand show the concepts and how
things are linked together orconnected.
And so we talk through theagenda.
I always talk through the agendawith my clients prior to so I
get an idea of the event, whatthey're trying to get out of it,
who is the audience?
The audience is very importantso that I can make sure that I'm
meeting their visual needs ofthe client and also the visual
(09:23):
needs of the audience, becausethat's what the story is
actually created for.
So, yeah, I do put a lot ofpreparation into having a look
at the agenda.
I'm a very proud science nerd,so I love looking up who's
running the event, what theiraims are, what their strategic
plans are, understanding theirbusiness, so that I can actually
provide and create a visualstory for everybody in that room
(09:45):
that relates to everybody andthey can use it time and time
again.
So, yeah, there is in my for myrole.
I do prepare quite a bit tomake sure there's enough room on
the page to capture all of thatamazing content.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
I love that idea of real estate.
That's another one that we talkabout when we're looking at
riparian management, and we talkabout the real estate for
native fish or native animals ortrees, and it's all about.
Well, they all need their littlebit of real estate.
You've got to create their homeor their habitat.
So tell me, how did you startdoing this?
(10:17):
Like you trained as a marinescientist and we're going to get
to that.
But what made you put pen topaper and decide, oh, it's a
great idea.
I'll stand up in front of awhole room of people and fill
this 1.3 metre page whereeveryone can see any mistake I
do.
It just sounds like a knifeedge for me.
It doesn't sound so good whenyou put it like that?
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Very good question.
And basically so.
I started my small creativebusiness called Picture Ideas, a
visual communications business,almost 10 years ago now.
10 years ago, I did not knowthat a graphic recorder was a
job.
I didn't know it existed, noidea.
And very quickly leading up tothe moment that I became a
(10:58):
graphic recorder, I was, youknow, a marine scientist, I was
in research, I went intogovernment and then one day I
was in a role I didn'tparticularly like and I happened
to have these creativemagazines I looked at on the
weekends and I saw this articleof this woman at a whiteboard
with a pen and she's drawing,and I remember the key words
were I actively listen and I usemy skills to draw out people's
(11:21):
stories.
And I read the article and Iwent I could do that.
I love the sound of that.
So I quit my job which is notreally me, if people know me, I
have lists and I don't reallylike a lot of risk but quit my
job and the next day I startedmy business and it's been going
like that ever since.
So for almost 10 years I'vebeen doing this role.
So yeah, no, I didn't like.
(11:43):
It's quite amazing to think youdon't know that occupation
actually exists.
And then I had quite thediverse career leading up to
that.
I really think that the reason Ican do my role as a graphic
recorder so to be able tointerpret information quickly,
synthesize information, hear thekey concepts and draw them out
is because I do have thatscientific background.
(12:03):
You know, through research andour PhDs we've always had to
synthesise and interpretinformation quickly and make
sense of it and I think that'sreally helped.
And the other side of it I'vealways done art as a hobby, so I
haven't been to art school,I've learnt on every job that
I've done.
I'm self-taught and I thinkhaving the artistic side with
(12:24):
the scientific side obviouslyhelps in my role, particularly
when I do conferences of ascientific nature where there's
where I'm quite familiar withsome of the content.
So, yeah, it's an art andscience sort of combination and
love that brought me to thisinteresting role that you've
just explained does sound quiteinteresting in front of all of
those people.
But I actually, I actually I'llhave to say I turn off when I'm
(12:46):
in really big conferences or any.
It doesn't matter what groupsetting it is, but I could be in
the room with a thousand peopledrawing live and I am so
focused on what I'm listening toI totally forget people are
behind me and I could be hummingor singing or you know, and in
my zone, when you put it likethat, we're like, oh, they can
see everything you're doing.
I'm like, oh yeah, I forgetthat.
(13:07):
But I think that's a good thingthat I'm so in tune with the
stories that are being told.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Well, it sounds to me like you're in flow.
You know that moment wheneverything seems to be going
right and I do experience thosemoments Sometimes.
Sometimes when I'm speaking orfacilitating, I know I'm in flow
and it's a wonderful feelingbecause you're just so engrossed
and you know that it's allworking.
But I think what you're sayingabout the science I was thinking
(13:33):
to myself, my goodness shecould be talking about me,
because I also trained as ascientist, social scientist, and
ended up running an AustralianRiver Restoration Centre and you
sort of go.
So how did that work?
I think it's a really goodmessage in there for anyone
listening to say look, you knowthe choices that you make.
They really just open up moreand more opportunities, I think,
(13:56):
and if you're open to that,then you can find yourself in
all sorts of weird and wonderfuland amazing places.
Oh, absolutely so.
I love that story, Thank you.
Yeah, what was the very firstconference that you did?
Speaker 2 (14:07):
What was the very first one, the very first was
for CSIRO and I was flown up toTorres Strait Island and there
was a workshop for thescientific team of CSIRO who
look after the Torres StraitIsland lobster fishery and so
they go up a couple of times ayear and they talk to all of the
(14:27):
First Nations communities therewho fish and they explain and
share the science and thescience, the fishery science for
that fishery is actually reallycomplicated.
I'm not going to pretend that Iunderstood it all because it's
quite advanced, but that was myvery first job to come in and
actually draw out the sciencefor this workshop and it was
such an amazing workshop Like Istill remember it vividly and
(14:50):
the engagement with the FirstNations communities there was
just remarkable to the pointwhere a lot of when I draw a lot
with First Nations communitiesand they're very quiet sometimes
they don't, you know, theydon't have to talk for the sake
of talking, you know.
So when it was a very sort ofquiet workshop to start with and
they were watching me draw andit's like, oh, there's, not many
(15:11):
people have seen me, obviously,in Torres Strait drawing at a
scientific workshop and slowlythroughout the day they would
come and start looking at thedrawings and you know, having a
look at how I've visuallycaptured the science of their
fishery, and at the end Iactually had some of the elders
of the community come up anddraw with me and draw their
totems and explain things to meand how that related to what I
(15:33):
was doing and that moment to me.
I just went.
This is my very first job.
I'm so excited.
I'm going to do this forever,so it was a wonderful first
experience.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Yeah, I was very lucky.
That's just an extraordinarystory.
It just makes me think about alot of the work that we're
currently doing on the UpperMurrumbidgee and on other rivers
where we're trying to work withFirst Nations people.
I just wonder whether, if wedid that visually, we'd get a
much better option or an outcomethan we would than trying to,
you know, sit in rooms and makemeeting notes.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
First Nations are the , you know know, the very first
storytellers or visualstorytellers.
So, you know, I remembergrowing up as a child having a
look at the cave drawings and Imean they've been telling
stories and visual stories sincetime began.
So to be able to engage at thatlevel where they can see it and
get it straight away, ratherthan going, oh, here's, you know
, 50-page report and here's afew scientific papers which is
fine, but you do have to, youknow, you need to relate to the
(16:28):
audience and visual storytelling, to me, is so powerful that it
relates to any audience if youcan capture the information in a
relatable way.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Oh, it's fantastic.
As you're saying that, I'mthinking about this
extraordinary experience I hadup in Karratha on the Dampier
Peninsula, and my brother-in-lawis an archaeologist, oh wow.
And he took me out to see thesecave.
They're stone and written inyeah, it's written, but there's
it's carved into the rock andthere's a particular image of
(16:59):
someone who's obviously come offa boat with a big hat and you
can just tell it's peoplelanding and local people just
drawing this really significantevent.
And it's incredible.
And when you get your eye inall over this Burrutt Peninsula,
on this really red red rock,are stories, like it's just a
(17:20):
living story.
And you walk, oh, look, there'sa fish or there's a dolphin or
there's a, and it's everywhere.
It's just and it's so differentfrom the dot paintings that we
often see, but it's very muchthat visual storytelling.
This is what's happened here.
This is where we're going, thisis what we're doing and it's
still there.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
I hadn't made that connection before.
Yeah, no, visual storytellersamazing.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Really storytellers Amazing, really, really good.
So we need to understand, then,how the lady sitting in front
of me with this beautiful seadragon on her top there
obviously marine.
Yes, how did a marine scientistend up being a visual
storyteller?
Oh gosh.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yeah, again, good question.
That's a long time ago.
I think I finished my PhD in2006.
So I've always had an affinitywith nature.
I grew up in regionalQueensland, where you're
climbing trees and going to thebeach, and I think I was like
three or four and I learned toswim at the beach.
I just jumped in and off, Iwent.
My parents were there, by theway, that's good to know.
(18:18):
Yeah, and then I like to addthat in because some people are
like, oh, that's a bit dangerous.
So, yeah, always had thataffinity with nature, loved the
environment.
My very first time seeing theGreat Barrier Reef was on our
September school holidays.
I was 11 years old.
Mum and Dad took us up toCairns Off.
We went in a big boat, jumpedin the water and I think I can
(18:40):
still remember just going.
What is this?
There's a whole underwaterworld under the water here.
That's, you know, it's bustlingwith life, it's got color, all
the noises popping and crackling, and I just fell in love with
oceans.
It's just that was it like?
That's, that's my thing, that'smy saltwater heart.
That I like to say.
(19:01):
And so from there I always, youknow, when you're growing, what
do you want?
To be a ballerina or anastronaut or a fighter pilot and
I always I think I always said,oh, marine biologists be really
good, but I didn't really knowwhat that meant.
So then I went and did you knowscience degree and honours and
a PhD in marine science and justfell in love with it really.
But then I also then movedthrough to government and I
utilised all of my scientificbackground.
(19:23):
But then I moved into differentdepartments and and certainly
did more things like regionaldevelopment, industry
development, but the marinescience has always been my
passion and so, yeah, to moveinto that whole visual
storytelling, I did create analter ego, dr Susie Starfish.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Yes, we're going to come to her.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Yeah, so it was my way to engage with a different
audience through children, whereI thought I could make a really
big difference, to start youngand share my love of the ocean
with them through stories,through words and pictures,
through colour and having fun.
And so I think that's where myjourney has landed, where I can
still use all of my love ofmarine science through my
(20:03):
engagement as Dr Susie Starfish,but then using all of my marine
science and learnings to applyto graphic recording in terms of
being able to synthesise andinterpret information.
So that's my little journey.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
What was your PhD?
Speaker 2 (20:16):
on the effectiveness of no-take marine reserves in
Moreton Bay Marine Park.
So, to make that simple, dogreen zones work in a marine
setting?
Yes, and what did you discover?
Speaker 1 (20:26):
The answer is yes.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
That's a good answer to have.
Yes, it's not a rocket sciencePhD, but no one had actually,
you know, gone out and got theempirical evidence about green
zones in that marine park atthat time.
And so it was a great PhD, veryhands on.
And then I was lucky enough, orfortunate enough, to then move
into the EnvironmentalProtection Agency straight after
my PhD, where they actuallyreviewed the Moton Bay Marine
(20:50):
Park zoning plan, and so myscience was actually able to be
used and applied on the groundto help make actual new policy
decisions for that marine park.
And one of my most favourite andproud moments, I suppose, was
it wasn't just me, it was a teameffort and it was political
effort.
I'm not saying it was just me,but it did help to have the
science behind those decisions.
(21:11):
And we went from, you know,less than half a percent green
zone to almost 16% in the endover a three or four year period
of reviewing the plan.
So, yeah, that was to me thatwas a really proud moment.
But I've only got one zoningplan review in me.
I think that's enough for alifetime.
But you got one zoning planreview in me.
I think that's enough for alifetime, but it certainly gave
me a very good introduction togovernment and policy and
(21:32):
planning.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Let me tell you it's also a really good like.
Again, the parallels are quiteinteresting.
So mine was, my PhD was on thecorporatisation of research and
development in Australia in therural sector, and that was
something that was.
You know, it was a process ofadministrative change and of
governance, and then I ended upactually working in one of the
corporations that I wasreviewing a bit similar to you,
(21:56):
like working in the organisationthat's going to make the policy
.
But I think that the commonalityhere is also that you can take
your science and do your science, but unless you're able to
communicate it and put it into apolicy context, it's not going
to make much difference.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
And I constantly have scientists saying to me, why
don't they just get it?
Like we keep telling them thatthis has to happen or they'll
say, right, sure, and I've donethis bit of science.
Can you now give it togovernment?
It's like, well, no right place, right time.
Understand the context.
Yes, with some of your graphicrecording that you've done of
conferences, can you tellwhether what you're putting onto
(22:36):
the page is going to get usedin a way that's actually going
to make it really effective bythe sort of conference that
you're at?
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Yeah, that's a good question.
I can tell sometimes if theclient well, they usually tell
me what they want to use it for,and so we have that discussion
in that preparation phase that Ispoke about earlier, where I
actually say to them look, I cancreate this visual in a number
of different ways so you can getthe most out of it.
Or we just do a big picturestory and you put it into your
strategic plan, you know, or theannual report, and that's that.
(23:05):
So I actually make it.
I make it quite known to theclient that if I draw it a
certain way, like I leave whitespaces, let's say and I'm
showing the connection betweenyour themes that you can
actually cut out thoseindividual stories and use it in
different ways.
So I think a lot of the time theclient does really want to make
the most of this visual.
They've gone to the effort ofgetting a graphic recorder in.
(23:26):
They've had meetings andplanning meetings with me.
I'm in the room with theirstakeholders, which some of the
conversations and topics arequite controversial at times.
So it's, you know, you want tohave that independent which is
me in the room, who's going tobe very mindful of the subject
matter.
So I think in most cases, I dosee the picture come to life and
I can see how it can be used.
(23:48):
It's really then up to theclient how and if they use it,
because everyone's busy and Ihear that a lot.
So it's it really is up to theclient how they want to use that
story.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Is there any subject matter or conference that you
won't visually?
Speaker 2 (24:02):
record?
No, I've never come across thatso far.
I think anything that you, anygroup discussion, any
presentation can be drawn, itreally comes down to if it's
really sensitive matter.
So I've done things like livedexperience of, you know, suicide
.
I've listened to a lot of FirstNations important stories that
they have to share, and so it'sjust being very sensitive to the
(24:23):
content and ensuring, again inthis preparation phase with my
clients, what sort of visuals doyou not want to see?
Because sometimes there arevery graphic discussions.
So I'm very yeah, again, I'mjust very sensitive to the
content.
I've never not been able todraw something, but yeah, that's
a really good question though.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Yeah, it's one of those ones where you sort of,
yeah, I sometimes get asked todo things and I think, oh, am I
the right person to do that?
Often with First Nationsactually, I get asked.
I say, well, I'm not surethat's my role, but can you tell
me why you would want me to dothat?
It's a bit like you're sayingwhy and how do you want to be
able to use this visualrecording?
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Absolutely, and particularly with First Nations
communities.
My very first question is dothe First Nations communities
you are working with know onethat I will be involved?
Two, are they happy for me tobe involved?
And three, are they okay for meto utilise some of their First
Nations drawings or imagery andsymbols, or would you like it to
be?
It's from you know, dr SuePillans, I'm a white woman.
(25:24):
I'm going to draw it the way Isee it.
So I'm very upfront about that,because I've had instances
where the client and the FirstNations have not told, have not
shared, that I was in the roomor coming along and I'm
interpreting things slightlydifferent to what the First
Nations would want.
So my very first question nowfor those sort of projects is
what do the First Nationscommunities are they happy with?
(25:45):
Are they comfortable with?
What do the First Nationscommunities are they happy with?
Are they comfortable with, andare they okay to me to utilise
some of the imagery or not?
So yeah, I think it's veryimportant to have those
conversations up front.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
It's also about protecting yourself, I think you
know, because you know you'vegot to be mindful of the role
that you're playing, because youknow you're invited into a
group or an organisation.
They probably know each otherbetter than you know them.
But it's about being reallyclear on your role, isn't it?
So that they know exactly whyyou're there.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Yeah, that's a really good point, and particularly
everyone like I'm in a business,I run a business.
I want to make sure that I makemyself proud and I do a really
good job.
And, as I said before, withthis preparation phase, I
suppose some clients aren't usedto me coming and asking 60,000
questions, but again, I need toyes, you're right protect myself
but also meet the visual needsof the client, and I don't know
(26:34):
that if I can't talk to youabout it, so I might be a little
bit much for some people, butI'm so dedicated to the client
and their visual needs that I'mgoing to do the so I can do the
very best job for that clientand the audience that they're
trying to connect with andengage with.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
So, sue, do you think people trust pen and paper more
than they might trust someonewho's doing a digital or an
artificially intelligentgenerated image?
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Very good question and very topical right now,
shuan.
Look, I think it's a matter ofpreference these days, but I do
have to say that having a humanbeing or myself as an analogue
recorder in a room, pen on paper, I'm right there in front of
you, I'm not making things up, Ithink you can trust that and
obviously I'm there if I make amistake or whatever.
(27:22):
It's very humanistic, right.
So everyone's a human, we'renot robots.
But in saying that a digitalrecorder is also in the audience
, uh, they're sitting there andthey're actually displaying what
they're drawing on a big screen, so you can see everything all
of the time.
I just think sometimes it's alittle bit more humanistic.
Um, when an analog or someonelike myself is there on pen and
paper on a big board, it's a bigpicture story.
(27:43):
People can be involved in it.
They can come up and have alook at it.
They can point at things and go, oh, what about this?
And oh, look at the way youdrew that.
Or you really listened to me.
And I'm like, yes, I did.
That's why I'm here, and sopeople can interact and connect
with the drawing physically,which I think you know.
It's a connection, it's anengagement, it's trust.
(28:09):
And then when we're talkingabout things like AI, I have no
problem with AI, but I can't seehow a robot could be a human
and I can't see how they couldget the humanistic tones, how
people are speaking, theemotions and interpret that
these days.
Even with machine learning, Ithink it would take some years
for there to be, let's say, arobotic graphic recorder.
Good luck to them because theywouldn't have to take breaks
like I do.
But I think having the human inthe room is building trust and
(28:29):
a connection with that audienceand I really think it's a
preference thing for whatclients want, and I do see that
clients really do want a lot ofdigital drawings these days.
I just don't do that medium.
I prefer pen on paper.
It's just what I've always doneand I love the feeling and I
love the look and I really justthe engagement of that audience
with, with this visual storythat you can, you can almost
(28:50):
touch if well, you can actually,but I prefer you don't while
I'm drawing.
But yeah, that's to answer that.
I hope I answered your questionthere, joanne yeah, no, no,
that's absolutely right.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
And and as you were speaking, I was thinking about
spontaneity even though you doall this preparation, there must
be moments where it's like, oh,I can, I can add that in oh,
absolutely, when you're actuallyin situ.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
Oh, it happens all the time.
It's like oh, oh.
And the reason I love that youasked that question is the oh
moments, this real estate on thepage that I discussed earlier.
So you might have seen, at theconference I use a lot of
post-it notes and so the post-itnote represents the oh moment.
That's so good, but will I haveenough room?
(29:29):
So I actually jot down thatreally important moment and I
put it on my post-it note andthen I'm still trying to design
and fit in all this content andso I use that as a placeholder
throughout conferences,particularly when there's a lot
of information.
So some of the conferences I dowith universities will have a
full day and there'll be, let'ssay, 30 to 40 five-minute
presentations, one after theother, after the other, after
the other, and it's just, it'sso full on, and so I've got like
(29:50):
100 poster notes and then inthe breaks I will then, you know
, catch up and draw all thatreally important oh moment out.
So, yeah, the spontaneity isit's a big thing and I get
excited by it, but I also oh,I'm going to catch up, hang on,
hang on.
What did you say again?
So that's why you have to be onall the time.
That's why we get exhausted, Isuppose, but it's an exciting
(30:10):
moment as well, so yeah, goodquestion.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
It sounds exciting.
It does sound like you alsohave to manage that, that
overwhelm of oh my god, I'veheard so many good things.
Which things do I use and andyou don't want to, you know,
miss anything, but at the sametime you must keep a, keep a.
I guess this is part of thisanalytical brain that you're
bringing to it.
What's the central theme thatwe're trying to pull out?
(30:35):
So, although that's a nice tohave, this is actually more
important.
Is that kind of how you gothrough it.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
That's exactly how I go through it and that's why
those post-it notes, for me, aresuch an important tool, and one
of my favourite things tocapture, I must say, are those
beautiful quotes.
Sometimes in presentations andworkshops, there's just that
moment and you say that's goingin, that's not not going to go
in.
I'm putting the pen on thepaper right now.
Everything else can work aroundthat and sometimes that's all
people will see when they'relooking at this visually.
(31:00):
You can see it throughout thecoffee breaks, et cetera, and
lunches.
They'll come up and they'llpoint and I'm busy, you know,
trying to catch up, but I canhear it and to hear the people's
voices and their reaction.
Remember that, oh, that was sogood.
And then it links to this oneover here when we said that in
the morning session.
And so it's.
I think it's, yeah, it's.
It's such a good feeling toknow that I've captured
(31:21):
someone's story and someone'sexperience in an accurate way
which they're really happy tosee on the page.
So it's yeah, it's an importantrole, I think, and one that is
very independent.
I probably haven't mentionedthat enough that you can't bring
your own bias in.
It doesn't matter how much Iprepare, it's what I hear on the
day, and the other flip side,when you've said there's so much
information.
Also, when people talk doesn'tmean they're saying a lot of
(31:44):
things too, so you just have toto keep.
They do say a lot of things,but I can't capture everything
they say, so I am waiting forthe oh moment and um, that's
always the most exciting partthat's so great.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Do you keep a record of all the visual stories that
you've done like?
Do you have like a portfolio ofall these different conferences
?
Speaker 2 (32:04):
yes, so I keep.
I keep photos of everything,but the client keeps the
original artwork to digitize andreproduce how they want,
whether they put on a mug or upin a wall Wall art I've had a
lot of wall art happen over thelast few years Mugs and t-shirts
.
Yeah, no, I keep a portfoliowhich is all on my website.
Every conference and event I do, I put that up as my visual CV,
let's just say, because if youdon't know it and you can't
(32:33):
really understand it until yousee it and that's why I have a
few time-lapse videos thatclients have done too of
actually the progression over acouple of days of a conference
or a workshop you can see thestories come to life through pen
and paper, which I find areally important tool to
communicate what I do as well.
If you haven't seen me, youwouldn't even know I exist.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Yeah, that's right.
That's right.
Yeah, I did look through someof those and I really like how
sometimes you just use a reallycontrolled palette of colour,
whereas on others it's lots ofcolours that come in.
And I mean, I love lots ofcolour as well, and so I was
particularly drawn to the partof the website where we actually
(33:04):
meet Susie Starfish, dr SusieStarfish.
So there's three books that Isaw there and they are just
stunningly beautiful.
And then there's also thisamazing mermaid there yourself
in a very lovely glitterycostume.
So tell me about this.
She's not even an alter ego, isshe?
(33:24):
But you're out there talking tokids, so you're actually
getting both ends of thespectrum, I'm feeling.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
When did Susie?
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Starfish make her appearance in her first book.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Yes, so Susie Starfish started 10 years ago as
well.
She was actually the first partof my visual communications
business.
I started with her, yeah, soshe started, and basically I
just started as a Facebook pageto introduce my love of the
oceans through art, and so Iwould put up each week a
painting that I'd done of acertain interesting marine
animal and I'd provide thescientific facts underneath it,
things like, you know, seacucumbers that you know can
(34:01):
vomit up their guts when apredator comes along, and how
cool's that you know.
Just to engage in a slightlydifferent way, my my science
communication was, you know, funand colourful, I suppose, and
so I started that.
And then I started basicallytrying to create a series of
children's picture books aboutthe ocean.
And my books are slightlydifferent because I'm from a
very scientific background andmy drawings are quite scientific
(34:22):
.
They're not whimsical, let'ssay.
They're very you know that's afish and that's a crab and
that's, you know what it is iswhat it is when you see it, but
it is full of colour and it isfull of life and it has this
scientific background behind it.
And the reason I actuallystarted the series of children's
picture books is becausethroughout my PhD, I was sort of
needed a bit of a stress relief.
So I decided to startwatercolour classes and so I
(34:45):
would go each week to thiswonderful group of ladies who
were retired I was not and theywould talk about their trips to
Tuscany and they would, you know, paint Tuscan scenes and
poppies.
And here I was, you know, first, second year of my PhD, talking
about, so, about the mud crab,did you know?
And I'd talk about their lifecycle and you know, when you
catch them, you do this andyou're in the mud and they're
(35:07):
like, wow, that's different.
And I'd be painting seahorsesand fish and tuna.
And over a number of years ofhearing all of these stories, my
art teacher who was amazing andI was still in contact with her
today she went Susie, how aboutyou write and illustrate some
children's picture books aboutall of these wonderful things
that happen in the ocean?
(35:30):
And I went oh, what a great idea.
So I started and it took me, Ithink, six years for my very
first book to come out, becausemy very first book called the
Great Barrier Thief, so that'sall about climate change and
coral bleaching on our reef.
I couldn't think of a positiveend to the story and with
children's picture books, notonly do you have to empower and
engage and excite children, youneed to give them a positive
outcome.
You can't just say, oh, thereef's dead and it's dying, and
(35:50):
that's not right and that's nothopeful.
So I'm all about positivestorytelling and I did find a
way to illustrate and drawattention to the issue, with it
being a hopeful ending.
So that was my first one andthen after that I ended up
getting a contract for two morebooks after that.
So I have a series of three now.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
And one.
It involves an itchy fish.
What's that one?
Speaker 2 (36:12):
about.
Oh, so my latest book, whichwas released this year, is
called Roger the Wrasse and theItchy Fishes, which is actually
illustrating cleaning stationson the Great Barrier Reef where
this tiny little fish calledRoger, who's real, goes around
and cleans all these really bigfish turtles, manta rays,
gropers, etc.
On his cleaning station, and itreally there's two things that
(36:34):
I'm trying to illustrate here.
One is symbiosis, where thistiny little fish takes all that,
let's say the itches off fishesand gets a feed, and then the
fishes and the turtles don'thave itches anymore, so they
feel very comfortable.
But it also shows, I think,that no matter how small you are
, you can create and do great,great things.
You can achieve great thingswhich is exactly what you're
which is what your Australian umrestoration centre does, is
(36:57):
this small mighty team you know.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
So there you go.
I love that you described as asmall and mighty.
Someone was saying somethingabout the other day, about my
sort of vertical uh, lack ofvertical height.
I I suppose that's what you'dsay and I said, yes, but I've
been told I'm small and mighty,so I'll take that Absolutely yes
, small and mighty is great.
So, sue, we can't leave ourlisteners not knowing about the
(37:22):
middle book in the series.
So tell me about that one.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
So the middle book is Cranky Frankie and the Oceans
of Trash, which is obviouslyabout plastic pollution and
marine debris, and she's afeisty little porcupine fish
that goes on a journey, andagain with a hopeful ending, of
how we can all help to clean upour oceans together.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
Oh, fantastic, that's great, and I do think hope is
incredibly important.
I have interviewed other peopleworking in the environment
sector and I've said you knowhow do you keep doing this?
And they said well, if youdon't have hope, then you've got
despair.
What's the point of?
Speaker 2 (37:54):
living if you're in complete despair, and I do.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
You know it is hard because I know that for a lot of
young people, like my son's, 22, and a lot of his friends are
saying, oh my God, you guys,you're leaving with this big,
you know mess sort of thing.
I'm saying well, actually we'redoing a lot to recognise that
and to set you up so that we cando as much positive as we can.
So I'm really pleased thatSusie is still writing and do
(38:21):
you still get dressed up in yourcostume and go into schools.
Yes, I love a good costume.
So do I.
I love it.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
It's the best way to walk into a classroom, to be
honest, or a library or akindergarten when straight away,
the children can see.
So I have a dress that's madeof the ocean, and then I also
have this new mermaid outfit,which you know has lights and
things, and then I also have atutu full of marine debris that
I've collected over the last fewyears, which is just full of
plastics which children cantouch and feel, and I'm like so
(38:50):
the dress is actually whatactually washes up on our
beaches and we can talk abouteach piece and say where do you
think this came from?
And they're like what do youmean?
This is all on our beach, thisis in the ocean.
I'm like, yes, so it's reallytouch and feel, but it's also I
grab their attention as soon asI walk in the room and the dress
sometimes, I think, is a bitmore exciting than Susie
Starfish, but that's okay, I'vegot their attention and then we
(39:17):
can dive into the storiestogether and then we follow it
up with art activities toreinforce the science they've
learnt through art activities,to make it a bit clearer.
So it's just a joy.
To be honest, I love it.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
Yeah, you see their faces light up and it's just so
nice.
It's beautiful to be talking atthat age, before adults become
really lame.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
Yes, and you know it's really nice, I agree.
I would far rather, like I said,I thought I could make a bigger
difference with my oceanoptimism, starting with the
young ones.
And then they have theirconversations with their parents
and their families because theydon't buy the books.
Adults have to buy the booksand there's nothing better when
(40:00):
I, you know, will get a messagefrom a parent through the child
to say so.
We heard that Dr Susie Starfishwas in the classroom today and
apparently we need to put allour rubbish in the recycling bin
, like our plastics, becauseturtles can ingest plastics and
they might get sick and,unfortunately, they might die.
So thank you, dr Susie Starfish, for, you know, providing that
(40:20):
education through my, you know,six-year-old child, which is
always wonderful, so greatfeedback, and you can make a
difference, you know, throughthat storytelling.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
Yeah, we're about to embark on a similar sort of
approach.
Up around the Cooma area and inthe Snowy Mountains we have a
tiny little fish called thestocky galaxius which is
threatened, and we're wantingpeople to care about the fish,
but we actually don't want themto go and find them.
We actually, you know they needto be left alone.
So we're working out how do weconvey that, and it's often
(40:52):
better, I think, to do thatthrough kids, who can then go
and talk to their parents.
The neighbourhood for thisstocky Galaxus is one that you
know.
You really don't want the troutmoving in.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
That's it.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
yes, so it's that sort of a conversation, rather
than going to trout fishermenand saying, yes, you know, we
don't necessarily want as manytrout, which could be a very
different reaction yeah, andwhat I say, what we're trying to
do, I agree and what I.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
why I do?
What I do is if I think ifpeople can understand or
children can understand, a bitmore about the environment, a
bit more about oceans, theymight fall in love with it.
If they care about it, they'remore likely to want to protect
and look after it.
So it's, you know, it'sstarting those conversations,
you know, pointing at things,the colourful things in the book
, talking through those sorts ofthings, understanding all these
, the diversity on the reef, forexample, so that my last book
(41:38):
that I was talking about is allabout this drawing attention to
biodiversity, the importance ofit, and that's through colour
and storytelling.
So I agree with yeah, I thinkthat's wonderful if you can
start young and have thoseimportant conversations in a
positive, positive storytellingway.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
So, sue, it's been wonderful talking to you today,
and, as we come to the end ofthe conversation, we have three
questions that we like to askour guests.
Now, I know you're a big marineocean person, so I suspect I
already know what the answer isto this, but do you have a
favourite river or waterway orbody of water that you just love
?
Speaker 2 (42:14):
I love that and, look , I love all rivers and
waterways but, as I said, I havea saltwater heart.
So, yeah, no, the beach, andyou know the ocean and where I
often go to, rainbow Beach isprobably one of my most
favourite waterways.
Speaker 1 (42:27):
Yes, fantastic.
And where do you feel mostconnected to country and to
nature?
Speaker 2 (42:33):
I think, look, I try and walk on the beach and in our
national parks pretty much asmuch as possible and I think I
feel really connected when I'mthere and I'm just looking at
the water, just walking throughthe national park.
I think it's the most amazingway to be connected to nature
and I what I call is my datewith nature.
So I love it's the most amazingway to be connected to nature
and what I call is my date withnature.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
So I love it.
Oh, I love that.
Date with nature is a great wayto describe it.
Yeah, make a date with nature.
Oh, that's a lovely idea.
And the final question is and Ithink it's all come through in
the discussion that we've hadtoday but what does drive you to
do what you do?
Speaker 2 (43:08):
Yeah, that's a really good question.
I think, being able to tellpeople's stories in a unique way
which engages with them andothers in a way that you can't
really do any other way, I thinkpen on paper.
Can you imagine these days, inthe world of digital technology,
pen on paper can be thatpowerful?
So that's why I do what I do.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
Yeah, fantastic.
Well, thank you so much.
It's been such a wonderfulconversation and I know that
we'll continue to have many moreand, for our listeners, we will
put a whole lot of informationfor you about Sue and, of course
, susie Starfish on the shownotes that you can go and look
up.
So thanks again, susie, andhave a great rest of your day.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
Thank you so much for having me, you small mighty
team.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
You can subscribe to Take Me to the River.
Wherever you get your podcastsVisit arrcau forward slash
podcast to learn more.
That's arrcau forward slashpodcast to learn more.
That's arrcau forward slashpodcast.
We acknowledge and respectAboriginal and Torres Strait
Islander peoples as thetraditional and continuing
(44:20):
custodians of the country andthe rivers on which we live,
learn, love and play.
We respect and learn fromelders past, present and
emerging, valuing theirknowledge, insights, cultures
and connections to the waterwayswe all love and care for.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.