September 8, 2023 • 26 mins
Buzz Knight is Takin' A Walk with Scott Shea, Author of "All the leaves are Brown: How the Mamas and Papas Came together and broke apart."
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Taking a Walk podcast hosted by Buzz Night.
You can keep up with Taking a Walk if you
follow us at takin awalk dot com, Apple Podcasts, the
Podcast Playground, or wherever you get your podcasts. On previous
Taking a Walk episodes, buzz has talked with authors who
dig deep into music history stories. These have included David Leaf,
(00:25):
who wrote about the genius of Brian Wilson, and Joel Salvin,
who wrote about legendary red rocker Sammy Hagar. On this episode,
buzz welcomes author Scott Shay, talking about his new book
All the Leaves Are Brown, about the twisted world of
the band The Mamas and the Papas. Join buzz Night
(00:45):
as he hosts Scott Shay next on Taking a Walk.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Hi, Scott, nice to be with you, albeit on a
virtual edition of Taking a Walk.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Good deal.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
So, how could one band that was so immensely talented
and successful been so dramatically screwed up in so many
other ways?
Speaker 3 (01:10):
That's a good question.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
I mean, I think, you know, I think just humanity
plays a part in that. So, you know, there was
the old sex, drugs and rock and roll, idiom right,
and these these four really kind of took it to
the hilp. And you know, I say this a lot,
and I really I hate to just kind of it
sounds like I'm bashing the group, but I'm really not.
(01:33):
It's just between you know, the dysfunction between the members
at you know, following the revelation of Denny's fling with
Michelle uh and it's really kind of resting on their laurels.
You know, the all four of them have been members
of various folk groups and had toured the country and
you know, on buses and stayed in cheap motels and
(01:56):
wore the same outfits days on end.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
And that's a lot of hard work.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
And I think when they got to that level that
the Mamas and the Papas was.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
At, they really kind of they kind of got a
little lazy, you know.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
They didn't they only wanted to tour on weekends and
and warm climates, you know, and they.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Canceled a lot of shows.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
And you know, that's not a recipe for staying together
very long. You know, the Beatles, the Stones, the Birds,
any group of Bob Dylan, any group that really is
a sixties legend, they put the hard work in. They
they went out and met the people, and you know,
being on the road inspired their songwriting and gave us
some really great stuff.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
And unfortunately the mama's and papas didn't really do that.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Who was whispering in their ear? That could have been
a good influence.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
Well, Lou Adler for sure, you know, and I know
you know the record label they really wanted them out
on the road. It wasn't you know, something that they
weren't at all.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Enambered with their.
Speaker 4 (03:01):
Approach and with the dysfunction, and you know, they and
they had to kind of tread lightly because there was
they were aware of the relationship dysfunction within the group
and you know, you wanted to hear their walk in
the line of trying to get them out to promote it,
but not getting them to not break up at the
same time, you know. So, but definitely Lou Adler was
(03:22):
was a force that really helped them and got them
back on their feet somewhat.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
But he obviously was doing other things so he couldn't
spend full time really managing the dysfunction.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
Yeah, you know, not long after they signed with Dunhill,
you know, he sold it to ABC and walked away
with a cool million in his pocket.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
He and his four I think he had four or
five partners. Mostly there were silent partners.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
And so even after, not long after they had time,
his influence could only carry so far. I mean, Dunhill
for or kept low on to be their manager and
the producer.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
But you know, he could only go so far as
with what the label was doing. So but you know,
I know, I know.
Speaker 4 (04:12):
He tried, and I know he loved John and they
were close friends, and in the studio they were a
dynamic duo, you know, But as far as getting on
the road and saying, hey man, we got to put
the work in, I did.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Do two well there.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
So let's go through each band member, because you paint
a tremendous picture in the book inside and out of
each of them. So I'd like to hear your take
and go through the lineup. First. John Phillips talk about
what a complex figure he was, Well.
Speaker 4 (04:46):
He has maybe the most complex personal life out of
all of them. And that's really saying something you know,
and I'm not even talking about with which came later,
you know, the.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
Allegations from his daughter mcken, but.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
Even back in those days, you know, he was he
was into drugs, you know, in the in the late seventies,
he got busted for being a drug dealer, but that
even that behavior had gone on in the early sixties
when they were in a folk group and he was
dispensing pills to every everybody. You know, he had these
relationships worked out with these chemists. So he was definitely,
(05:23):
you know, in over his head with drugs from the
from the onset. But he was an incredible, incredible musician
and you know, really underrated, I think, uh, And I
think the reason why he's underrated was he wasn't as
prolific as some of the others. I really put him
up there with Brian Wilson as far as as the
way he arranged songs.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
I mean, they both really you.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
Know Brian, Brian was into the Four Freshmen you know
growing up.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
And really kind of patterned his rock and roll after them.
Speaker 4 (05:52):
And and similarly, John was into the High Lows, which
was another singing quartet, kind of jazzy from the from
the early to mid fifties, and they inspired his writing.
But like I said, John just wasn't as prolific, and
so he doesn't get the same kind of accolades that
somebody like Brian Wilson gets And one of.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
The things I discovered that I didn't know is his
piece of the action, if you will, with the legendary
Monterey Pop Festival. Talk about John Phillips as sort of
a business person in that regard.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
He really was.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
You know, when he focused on something, I mean, look out,
he put his awe into it. And that includes the
Monterey Pop Festival that was brought to him by a
couple guys when Alan Paris here and a guy named
Benjamin Shapiro, and they had wanted to put on They
had put on a show earlier in nineteen sixty seven,
(06:53):
I think in the winter, like February or March, to
bail out to raise money to bail out the kids,
or to pay for the defense of kids who were
arrested during the Sunset Strip riots in Los Angeles Act.
You know, the curfews had been changed and there was
a lot of riding going on and gave us songs
like for what It's Worth by Buffalo Springfield. But so
(07:13):
they wanted to do a larger one, like an outdoor
festival in Monterey where there was a jazz festival like
every other year or so and so they got it
for two days and they didn't really have anybody. They
wanted the Beatles and the Stones, but the Beatles had
stopped touring and the Stones were in like you know,
legal nightmares with their drug buts, so they couldn't even
go anywhere if they wanted to. So Derek Taylor, who
(07:37):
was you know, had moved, who was the Beatles publicist,
had moved to Los Angeles and was working for the Birds,
and he had suggested to them the mama was in
the Papa. So the hottest thing going right now, and
they're right in your backyard. So they approached John and
through some cajoling, got him on board, and then he
saw the potential of it and really took it over
and made it what the Monterey Pop Fessel that we
(07:58):
know today, which is the father of the rock festival,
was really his idea. It was a not for profit
venture and he had all cutting edge artists. He wasn't
like a Dick Clark caravan of stars. It was you know,
they got a lot of those San Francisco groups like
The Grateful Dead and Jefferson Airplane, and then the two
top British groups in that time, like the who and
(08:20):
the Jimmy Hendricks experience, and you know, gave us an
Otis Redding, you know, and gave us just this incredible
festival that we're still revering today.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
And he bought out one of the partners ultimately too
of the festival, didn't.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
He Yeah, Ben Shapiro. He was not thrilled with the.
Speaker 4 (08:39):
Not the nonprofit aspect. So he did a great thing,
a smart thing. He held out, and they just ended
up buying him out for fifty grand. So he walked
He walked away with fifty thousand dollars in his pocket
and they got what they wanted.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Let's talk about the only living member, the beautiful Michelle Phillips.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
Yes, she was John's wife from nineteen sixty to nineteen
sixty nine.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
They had met when John or yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:05):
Nineteen sixty two, I'm sorry. They had met in nineteen
sixty one when John was in the Journeyman. It was
his folk group that was on Capitol Records, and they
went out to San Francisco to do a month stand
at the Hungry Eye. Their management team was located out there,
so they went out to be closer to them and
(09:25):
really kind of stayed in that area.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
And Michelle was living there. She was a model.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
She was about seventeen and had moved up there from
Los Angeles with their friend Tamar Hotel and whose father,
George Hotal was a prime suspect in the Black Dalliant murder.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
And so they met them at.
Speaker 4 (09:43):
The Hungry Eye, and you know, John, who was an
habitual cheater on his wife at the time, Susie just
head over heels in love with her.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
So and then you know.
Speaker 4 (09:57):
Then they got married like a year or so later,
and they started having marital troubles because Michelle had an affair,
and I think John was reforming the New Journeyman, and
he wanted Michelle a little closer to him to keep
an eye on her, so he brought her in. And
she was also pretty, could sing a little bit, you know,
And but I really think their marriage is critical. I
(10:18):
think if they hadn't gotten married, we wouldn't have the
mamas and the papas. And you know, she went on,
she didn't really go on to keep singing. She got it,
became an actress, appeared in a lot of movies, was
in Falcon Crest in the eighties, and you know, has
pretty much since retired but you know, like I said,
very maybe the greatest, one of the greatest songwriting muses
(10:39):
in rock and roll history as Monday Monday and go
where you want to go? And I saw her again
and and even California Dreaming were inspired by her.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Did you attempt to reach out to her for the book?
Speaker 3 (10:53):
I did, Yeah, I did.
Speaker 4 (10:54):
You know, she did not return my requests. I know
she's very proprietary of that story, you know, and rightly
and understandably so that she's a big part of that story.
So you know, and when I approached her, I was
not signed to a publishing deal. I did not have
an agent, so I was just some random guy, you know,
(11:17):
who worked at the Catholic channel on Sirius XM. And
you know, I can understand why she didn't why she
didn't return my my request. But nonetheless, she she put
out a you know, an autobiography in nineteen eighty six
that we really kind of detailed her time with the
Mamas in the Papa, So I was able to.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
Glean a lot of her perspective from that.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Let's talk about Denny Doherty.
Speaker 4 (11:40):
Denny was you know, talking about underrated Denny I think
is one of the most underrated rock and roll voices.
He had a great, great tenor a great rock and
roll ten, more suited for rock and roll than folk music.
He was in a folk band as well that was
signed to Epic Records, and they were called the Halifax Three.
They were all from Nova, scot Osha, Canada, and uh,
(12:02):
you know, they had some minor success, but they He
and John met on a on a Hoot and Any
tour when John was with the Journeymen, and those two
got very close. They would like they both smoked marijuana,
and when the tour bus would come come to a
rest stop, they would go off in the bushes and
and you know, sneak a joint here and there, and uh,
(12:23):
but it drew them closer, and they really had a
love for each other. And even after it came to
light that Michelle and Johnny had Michelle and Denny had
slept together, they were able to find a place of
healing and and remain friends. And they were friends through
through the rest of of John's life.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
So then let's talk about the great cast Elliott.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
Well, she was definitely the superstar of the group.
Speaker 4 (12:49):
You know, kind of a kind of came out of nowhere,
I think when you when you look, you know, through
the lens of history, she was you know, she was
you know, a heavy set and not traditionally the traditional
look of a female lead singer. But she had quite
a voice and she had a personality to match.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
You know.
Speaker 4 (13:12):
I think in many ways she had that to try
to make up for, you know, for her weight, you know,
which you know, in her mind was probably a bigger
deal than what it but you know, it was made
you know, it was made.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
Fun of a lot.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
You know, she's it's always brought up and you watch
her on TV shows and interviews and stuff like that.
But she was an incredible talent. And she also was
in a folk group of the Big Three, and she
had met she had met Denny on tour as well,
and she fell in love with him. You know, he
was a good looking guy and she was really into him.
(13:47):
But it was unrequited love. Denny loved her as.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
A friend, but he was not into her romantically.
Speaker 4 (13:54):
And that was another thing that just really kind of
gave the band. It's you know, the love between Mr
Michelle or Denny and Cass or the unrequited love. And
but you know, over time, I think the behavior of
all of them just kind of distanced her from them,
and she was looking for a way out. And you know,
(14:17):
as the Mamas and the Papa's star began to fall,
hers as a solo singer was rising because she was
when they were on stage. She was the spokesperson of
the group. She was the one who told the stories
while the band was tuning their instruments, you know, and
that she had done that with her time with the
Big Three, and you know, she was the breakout star
(14:40):
when Dream a Little Dream of Me came out, it
was credited to Mama Cass with the Mamas and the Papas.
I think Dunhill Records saw the writing on the wall
and wanted to move on with Cass, and they did,
and she had a you know, fairly successful solo career
as a singer. It was probably not what they had
hoped for. She didn't really have any smash number one success,
but you know, she her personality was such that, you know,
(15:04):
she was on talk shows, a lot of talk shows.
I mean she did like Mike Douglas and Merv Griffin
dozens of times. I believe she hosted Carson filled in
for him a couple of times when he was you know,
he was always taken off so so.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
And she was on his show a lot.
Speaker 4 (15:19):
So I think had she lived, she may have become
a very successful talk show host.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
It's amazing that they, at least John Phillips did not
want her in the group. And it's also amazing that
even in one of their songs, you know, the line,
no one's getting fat except Mama Cass. I mean, think
about that in today's world.
Speaker 4 (15:44):
I know, it's it's inconceivable, you know. But and the
funny thing was that, you know, she she was in
on the joke, and she knew John, and I think
her way of getting back at John, because they had
a very tumultuous relationship, was to sing that line with
as much vim and vigor as she could muster. And
when you listen to it, she is really into that line,
(16:07):
you know, and I think, you know, it's you know,
for us, it may be kind of backfired on him,
but it as for us, we benefited it because it
just it gives that song a little more pizaz.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
My understanding from talking to the great photographer Henry Dilts,
who knew Mama Cass, was that she was an incredible sweetheart.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
Oh she was.
Speaker 4 (16:32):
I mean you can just see in the interviews that
she gives she's she's very endearing. And I think that's
one reason why she was so successful in that realm,
is that people like to hear her talk and like
to you know it. It drew people closer to her,
and it's you know, you could fall in love with
her personality very very very easily, and you know, and
(16:55):
and for for my case, I mean, I don't you know,
I know she didn't think so, and maybe by by
other standards, I think she's.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
An attractive woman too, but you know she was.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
She just had a great look about her and a
great personality to boot, you know, and America fell in love,
and unfortunately, not just America, but the world fell in love,
and we lost her way too early, you know, at
the age of thirty two years old.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
And then there was this moment with the band that
I did not know about, the moment where the band
kicked out Michelle Phillips for the affair that she was
having with Jeene Clark of the Birds. Can you talk
about that?
Speaker 3 (17:39):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (17:40):
Absolutely, you know, I think once the dust settled for
from Denny and Michelle's fling, you know, Michelle stayed in
the house where that John she and John had rented.
Shortly after that came to light, and then but John
moved out and moved in with Denny, and then she,
you know, she began this affair with Jean Clark, who
(18:02):
she met through a mutual friend, and I think once
that came to light, it was it was too much
for John. It's just like, I can't deal with this
if you want. I think he told Denny and Mama
Cass that it's either me or her, you know, and
they couldn't afford to lose John. They could afford to
lose Michelle, or so they thought, you know, because.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
John was he was the Prinson.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
Without John, there is no mamas and papas, which is
why he's really kind of a focal point of this book.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
You know.
Speaker 4 (18:32):
It's kind of like the Beach Boys. You read a
book on the Beach Boys, it's going to be a
lot of focus on Brian Wilson. So so they did,
you know, John fired her after a concert where Jeene
Clark was in attendance, and John noticed and he fired
her in the parking lot, and a few days later
they sent her a formal letter, and you know, it
(18:55):
was the summer of nineteen sixty six, so it lasted
for about two months, and they brought in Joe Gidz,
who was Lou Adler's girlfriend at the time. She had
been the girlfriend of Jan Barry, of Jan and Dean
Uh and they had broken up shortly before he had
his car wreck that Uh you know, gave him resulted
in some brain damage.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
But you know, she was tall, another pretty blonde. She
was a former model. She was very musical.
Speaker 4 (19:21):
She had written songs and worked in the studio with
Jan and Dean and had recorded a single herself, so
she was kind of a natural replacement. But the thing was,
you know, the mam was in the papas was a
shared experience between four people, and I think it came
to light during that time period and that you know,
there was it.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Was Michelle was just wasn't.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
A cog you could take out and replace. You know,
she had been with them through thick and thin. They
were together in New York, they were together at.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
The Virgin Islands, they all.
Speaker 4 (19:51):
She was with them when they moved back out to
California and got signed to Dunhill, and they just couldn't
replace that, you know, she had an edge to her
that Jill didn't have. So he eventually brought her back
in right there at the end of summer and just
resumed as normal, And it actually kind of kicked off
a bit of a renaissance in John and Michelle's marriage.
(20:12):
They bought that house in bel Air and lived you knows,
as normally as they could for a little while, but then,
you know, bad behaviors made their way back in and
they eventually divorced.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
What was your conversation with Jill Gibson like for the book?
Speaker 4 (20:29):
It was very, very introspective. She's a very deep person.
She's an artist.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
You know.
Speaker 4 (20:34):
We communicated via email and she would always reply in
a very timely manner and with always with great depth.
She told me a great, the great story of them
meeting the Beatles. She was with them when they went
to London in nineteen sixty six in the summer there
and really gave me a first hand account of not
(20:54):
only meeting the Beatles, but several members of the Rolling
Stones and just and it's all detailed. The book people
can will enjoy and if you're a Beatles fan or
only stone Stan, you'll certainly enjoy the Mama's and the
papa shared experience with them.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
So do you ever think about the parallels of this
band for a band that would eventually mature in some
way and have its own legacy. The comparison between the
Mamas and the papas and the various affairs and Fleetwood Mac.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Yeah, I've heard that a lot. You know, It's funny.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
I didn't even really think of that writing it. And
I'm a big Fleetwood Mac fan, so it's like, you know,
but it's yeah, they were kind of Fleetwood Mac before
Fleetwood Mac, you know, and it was it was complicated.
But you know, I know there's a mini series out
there based on the life of the tumultuous relationship of
(21:52):
the most famous incarnation of Fleetwood maccause there were several
you know, with Lindsay Buckingham and Stevie Nicks and uh,
you know the movie the book. My book has already
been optioned for a movie or a limited edition series,
and I really think the story of the Mamas and
the Poppets could be a great limited edition series right
right there with daj Shones in the sixth because it
(22:14):
rights itself.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
And there's a cliffhanger there.
Speaker 4 (22:17):
Already built in for every episode. But you know, it
was the same thing, you know, just affairs and broken
hearts and jealousies, and.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
It was it was there before the Fleet, before Fleetwood
Mac even brought it to another level.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
So three ring Circus it was what it was.
Speaker 4 (22:34):
Right, Yeah, for sure, for sure, you know, and the
three principles being well, actually yeah, I guess you could
say Sean is in there, but definitely Danny, Michelle and Cash.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Yeah. So if you were their manager during that period,
what would you have tried to do to steer the course.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
Ah? Boy, that's a good question.
Speaker 4 (22:58):
You know, it's tough because you know, we talked about
the Monterey Pop Festival how that really changed music.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
It was, it brought it.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
It really kind of gave us what we now referred
to as classic rock because that was right after that.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
Was the.
Speaker 4 (23:16):
All those San Francisco groups really started to hit and
albums became a bigger thing than singles, and do you
had power trios like Cream and the Jimmy Hendricks experience
and the Mamas and the Papas struggled to find a
footing in that, and that's the very thing that they
had created. You know, harmony groups didn't do too well
(23:38):
in the post Monterey world. You think of the Beach
Boys and the Four Seasons and the Mamas and the Papas,
and you know, you eventually had this oldies revival that
you know, the Mamas and the Beach Boys in the
Four Seasons were able to kind of get back, get
their footing back, and really rejuvenate their careers.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
But the Mamas and the Papas just couldn't do that.
Speaker 4 (23:58):
So, I mean, I guess if I would have in
that era, I would have to get to work and
just try to figure out how to make this four
piece treat four piece quartet the thing's harmony relevant.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
In this age. And that's that's a tough That was
a tough would have been a tough order. And we
see it the Mamas.
Speaker 4 (24:17):
And the Papas their fourth album, The Papas and the
Mamas of not the greatest title in the world. It
was a good album and it came out right there
in nineteen sixty eight during that time, but it's not
very memorable. You know, there's no real super standout tracks.
There's good tracks, aren't this fan favorites for sure, but
nothing like what had come before it, like Creaky Alley
(24:38):
or California Dreaming or I saw her again. So I
think if I were there, I think if I were
their manager, I don't know if I would have done
been any better than Lou Adler or whoever else came in,
Bobby Roberts and all those other guys that came in.
But I would just definitely say, we got to focus
on finding our footing here and how we're going to
stay relevant in this era.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Might have been a visit to an addiction councilor possibly too, I.
Speaker 4 (25:05):
Don't know, And remember that that time and period he
was hip to be on drugs.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
True. Well, Scott, congratulations on all the leaves of brown,
how the Mamas and the papas came together and broke apart.
Your new book on Backbeat, and congratulations on it, and
thank you for being on taking a Walk.
Speaker 4 (25:28):
Well, thank you boys, I really appreciate you having me on.
And just if listeners want to, you know, learn to
buy the book, and so you can go to my
website scotch a author dot com, Shaft at s h
G A and we'll give you links to Amazon and
Barnes and Noble Books A million, and the audiobook just
dropped the other day, so if that's your preferred method
of getting through a book, you can pick that up
(25:50):
as well.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Thank you, Scott, I appreciate it, Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Taking a Walk with Buzznight is available on Spotify Podcasts
or wherever you get your podcasts
Speaker 3 (26:07):
MHM.
Welcome to the Taking a Walk podcast hosted by Buzz Night.
You can keep up with Taking a Walk if you
follow us at takin awalk dot com, Apple Podcasts, the
Podcast Playground, or wherever you get your podcasts. On previous
Taking a Walk episodes, buzz has talked with authors who
dig deep into music history stories. These have included David Leaf,
(00:25):
who wrote about the genius of Brian Wilson, and Joel Salvin,
who wrote about legendary red rocker Sammy Hagar. On this episode,
buzz welcomes author Scott Shay, talking about his new book
All the Leaves Are Brown, about the twisted world of
the band The Mamas and the Papas. Join buzz Night
(00:45):
as he hosts Scott Shay next on Taking a Walk.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Hi, Scott, nice to be with you, albeit on a
virtual edition of Taking a Walk.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Good deal.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
So, how could one band that was so immensely talented
and successful been so dramatically screwed up in so many
other ways?
Speaker 3 (01:10):
That's a good question.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
I mean, I think, you know, I think just humanity
plays a part in that. So, you know, there was
the old sex, drugs and rock and roll, idiom right,
and these these four really kind of took it to
the hilp. And you know, I say this a lot,
and I really I hate to just kind of it
sounds like I'm bashing the group, but I'm really not.
(01:33):
It's just between you know, the dysfunction between the members
at you know, following the revelation of Denny's fling with
Michelle uh and it's really kind of resting on their laurels.
You know, the all four of them have been members
of various folk groups and had toured the country and
you know, on buses and stayed in cheap motels and
(01:56):
wore the same outfits days on end.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
And that's a lot of hard work.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
And I think when they got to that level that
the Mamas and the Papas was.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
At, they really kind of they kind of got a
little lazy, you know.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
They didn't they only wanted to tour on weekends and
and warm climates, you know, and they.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Canceled a lot of shows.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
And you know, that's not a recipe for staying together
very long. You know, the Beatles, the Stones, the Birds,
any group of Bob Dylan, any group that really is
a sixties legend, they put the hard work in. They
they went out and met the people, and you know,
being on the road inspired their songwriting and gave us
some really great stuff.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
And unfortunately the mama's and papas didn't really do that.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Who was whispering in their ear? That could have been
a good influence.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
Well, Lou Adler for sure, you know, and I know
you know the record label they really wanted them out
on the road. It wasn't you know, something that they
weren't at all.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Enambered with their.
Speaker 4 (03:01):
Approach and with the dysfunction, and you know, they and
they had to kind of tread lightly because there was
they were aware of the relationship dysfunction within the group
and you know, you wanted to hear their walk in
the line of trying to get them out to promote it,
but not getting them to not break up at the
same time, you know. So, but definitely Lou Adler was
(03:22):
was a force that really helped them and got them
back on their feet somewhat.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
But he obviously was doing other things so he couldn't
spend full time really managing the dysfunction.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
Yeah, you know, not long after they signed with Dunhill,
you know, he sold it to ABC and walked away
with a cool million in his pocket.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
He and his four I think he had four or
five partners. Mostly there were silent partners.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
And so even after, not long after they had time,
his influence could only carry so far. I mean, Dunhill
for or kept low on to be their manager and
the producer.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
But you know, he could only go so far as
with what the label was doing. So but you know,
I know, I know.
Speaker 4 (04:12):
He tried, and I know he loved John and they
were close friends, and in the studio they were a
dynamic duo, you know, But as far as getting on
the road and saying, hey man, we got to put
the work in, I did.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Do two well there.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
So let's go through each band member, because you paint
a tremendous picture in the book inside and out of
each of them. So I'd like to hear your take
and go through the lineup. First. John Phillips talk about
what a complex figure he was, Well.
Speaker 4 (04:46):
He has maybe the most complex personal life out of
all of them. And that's really saying something you know,
and I'm not even talking about with which came later,
you know, the.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
Allegations from his daughter mcken, but.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
Even back in those days, you know, he was he
was into drugs, you know, in the in the late seventies,
he got busted for being a drug dealer, but that
even that behavior had gone on in the early sixties
when they were in a folk group and he was
dispensing pills to every everybody. You know, he had these
relationships worked out with these chemists. So he was definitely,
(05:23):
you know, in over his head with drugs from the
from the onset. But he was an incredible, incredible musician
and you know, really underrated, I think, uh, And I
think the reason why he's underrated was he wasn't as
prolific as some of the others. I really put him
up there with Brian Wilson as far as as the
way he arranged songs.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
I mean, they both really you.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
Know Brian, Brian was into the Four Freshmen you know
growing up.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
And really kind of patterned his rock and roll after them.
Speaker 4 (05:52):
And and similarly, John was into the High Lows, which
was another singing quartet, kind of jazzy from the from
the early to mid fifties, and they inspired his writing.
But like I said, John just wasn't as prolific, and
so he doesn't get the same kind of accolades that
somebody like Brian Wilson gets And one of.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
The things I discovered that I didn't know is his
piece of the action, if you will, with the legendary
Monterey Pop Festival. Talk about John Phillips as sort of
a business person in that regard.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
He really was.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
You know, when he focused on something, I mean, look out,
he put his awe into it. And that includes the
Monterey Pop Festival that was brought to him by a
couple guys when Alan Paris here and a guy named
Benjamin Shapiro, and they had wanted to put on They
had put on a show earlier in nineteen sixty seven,
(06:53):
I think in the winter, like February or March, to
bail out to raise money to bail out the kids,
or to pay for the defense of kids who were
arrested during the Sunset Strip riots in Los Angeles Act.
You know, the curfews had been changed and there was
a lot of riding going on and gave us songs
like for what It's Worth by Buffalo Springfield. But so
(07:13):
they wanted to do a larger one, like an outdoor
festival in Monterey where there was a jazz festival like
every other year or so and so they got it
for two days and they didn't really have anybody. They
wanted the Beatles and the Stones, but the Beatles had
stopped touring and the Stones were in like you know,
legal nightmares with their drug buts, so they couldn't even
go anywhere if they wanted to. So Derek Taylor, who
(07:37):
was you know, had moved, who was the Beatles publicist,
had moved to Los Angeles and was working for the Birds,
and he had suggested to them the mama was in
the Papa. So the hottest thing going right now, and
they're right in your backyard. So they approached John and
through some cajoling, got him on board, and then he
saw the potential of it and really took it over
and made it what the Monterey Pop Fessel that we
(07:58):
know today, which is the father of the rock festival,
was really his idea. It was a not for profit
venture and he had all cutting edge artists. He wasn't
like a Dick Clark caravan of stars. It was you know,
they got a lot of those San Francisco groups like
The Grateful Dead and Jefferson Airplane, and then the two
top British groups in that time, like the who and
(08:20):
the Jimmy Hendricks experience, and you know, gave us an
Otis Redding, you know, and gave us just this incredible
festival that we're still revering today.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
And he bought out one of the partners ultimately too
of the festival, didn't.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
He Yeah, Ben Shapiro. He was not thrilled with the.
Speaker 4 (08:39):
Not the nonprofit aspect. So he did a great thing,
a smart thing. He held out, and they just ended
up buying him out for fifty grand. So he walked
He walked away with fifty thousand dollars in his pocket
and they got what they wanted.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Let's talk about the only living member, the beautiful Michelle Phillips.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
Yes, she was John's wife from nineteen sixty to nineteen
sixty nine.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
They had met when John or yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:05):
Nineteen sixty two, I'm sorry. They had met in nineteen
sixty one when John was in the Journeyman. It was
his folk group that was on Capitol Records, and they
went out to San Francisco to do a month stand
at the Hungry Eye. Their management team was located out there,
so they went out to be closer to them and
(09:25):
really kind of stayed in that area.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
And Michelle was living there. She was a model.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
She was about seventeen and had moved up there from
Los Angeles with their friend Tamar Hotel and whose father,
George Hotal was a prime suspect in the Black Dalliant murder.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
And so they met them at.
Speaker 4 (09:43):
The Hungry Eye, and you know, John, who was an
habitual cheater on his wife at the time, Susie just
head over heels in love with her.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
So and then you know.
Speaker 4 (09:57):
Then they got married like a year or so later,
and they started having marital troubles because Michelle had an affair,
and I think John was reforming the New Journeyman, and
he wanted Michelle a little closer to him to keep
an eye on her, so he brought her in. And
she was also pretty, could sing a little bit, you know,
And but I really think their marriage is critical. I
(10:18):
think if they hadn't gotten married, we wouldn't have the
mamas and the papas. And you know, she went on,
she didn't really go on to keep singing. She got it,
became an actress, appeared in a lot of movies, was
in Falcon Crest in the eighties, and you know, has
pretty much since retired but you know, like I said,
very maybe the greatest, one of the greatest songwriting muses
(10:39):
in rock and roll history as Monday Monday and go
where you want to go? And I saw her again
and and even California Dreaming were inspired by her.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Did you attempt to reach out to her for the book?
Speaker 3 (10:53):
I did, Yeah, I did.
Speaker 4 (10:54):
You know, she did not return my requests. I know
she's very proprietary of that story, you know, and rightly
and understandably so that she's a big part of that story.
So you know, and when I approached her, I was
not signed to a publishing deal. I did not have
an agent, so I was just some random guy, you know,
(11:17):
who worked at the Catholic channel on Sirius XM. And
you know, I can understand why she didn't why she
didn't return my my request. But nonetheless, she she put
out a you know, an autobiography in nineteen eighty six
that we really kind of detailed her time with the
Mamas in the Papa, So I was able to.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
Glean a lot of her perspective from that.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Let's talk about Denny Doherty.
Speaker 4 (11:40):
Denny was you know, talking about underrated Denny I think
is one of the most underrated rock and roll voices.
He had a great, great tenor a great rock and
roll ten, more suited for rock and roll than folk music.
He was in a folk band as well that was
signed to Epic Records, and they were called the Halifax Three.
They were all from Nova, scot Osha, Canada, and uh,
(12:02):
you know, they had some minor success, but they He
and John met on a on a Hoot and Any
tour when John was with the Journeymen, and those two
got very close. They would like they both smoked marijuana,
and when the tour bus would come come to a
rest stop, they would go off in the bushes and
and you know, sneak a joint here and there, and uh,
(12:23):
but it drew them closer, and they really had a
love for each other. And even after it came to
light that Michelle and Johnny had Michelle and Denny had
slept together, they were able to find a place of
healing and and remain friends. And they were friends through
through the rest of of John's life.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
So then let's talk about the great cast Elliott.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
Well, she was definitely the superstar of the group.
Speaker 4 (12:49):
You know, kind of a kind of came out of nowhere,
I think when you when you look, you know, through
the lens of history, she was you know, she was
you know, a heavy set and not traditionally the traditional
look of a female lead singer. But she had quite
a voice and she had a personality to match.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
You know.
Speaker 4 (13:12):
I think in many ways she had that to try
to make up for, you know, for her weight, you know,
which you know, in her mind was probably a bigger
deal than what it but you know, it was made
you know, it was made.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
Fun of a lot.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
You know, she's it's always brought up and you watch
her on TV shows and interviews and stuff like that.
But she was an incredible talent. And she also was
in a folk group of the Big Three, and she
had met she had met Denny on tour as well,
and she fell in love with him. You know, he
was a good looking guy and she was really into him.
(13:47):
But it was unrequited love. Denny loved her as.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
A friend, but he was not into her romantically.
Speaker 4 (13:54):
And that was another thing that just really kind of
gave the band. It's you know, the love between Mr
Michelle or Denny and Cass or the unrequited love. And
but you know, over time, I think the behavior of
all of them just kind of distanced her from them,
and she was looking for a way out. And you know,
(14:17):
as the Mamas and the Papa's star began to fall,
hers as a solo singer was rising because she was
when they were on stage. She was the spokesperson of
the group. She was the one who told the stories
while the band was tuning their instruments, you know, and
that she had done that with her time with the
Big Three, and you know, she was the breakout star
(14:40):
when Dream a Little Dream of Me came out, it
was credited to Mama Cass with the Mamas and the Papas.
I think Dunhill Records saw the writing on the wall
and wanted to move on with Cass, and they did,
and she had a you know, fairly successful solo career
as a singer. It was probably not what they had
hoped for. She didn't really have any smash number one success,
but you know, she her personality was such that, you know,
(15:04):
she was on talk shows, a lot of talk shows.
I mean she did like Mike Douglas and Merv Griffin
dozens of times. I believe she hosted Carson filled in
for him a couple of times when he was you know,
he was always taken off so so.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
And she was on his show a lot.
Speaker 4 (15:19):
So I think had she lived, she may have become
a very successful talk show host.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
It's amazing that they, at least John Phillips did not
want her in the group. And it's also amazing that
even in one of their songs, you know, the line,
no one's getting fat except Mama Cass. I mean, think
about that in today's world.
Speaker 4 (15:44):
I know, it's it's inconceivable, you know. But and the
funny thing was that, you know, she she was in
on the joke, and she knew John, and I think
her way of getting back at John, because they had
a very tumultuous relationship, was to sing that line with
as much vim and vigor as she could muster. And
when you listen to it, she is really into that line,
(16:07):
you know, and I think, you know, it's you know,
for us, it may be kind of backfired on him,
but it as for us, we benefited it because it
just it gives that song a little more pizaz.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
My understanding from talking to the great photographer Henry Dilts,
who knew Mama Cass, was that she was an incredible sweetheart.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
Oh she was.
Speaker 4 (16:32):
I mean you can just see in the interviews that
she gives she's she's very endearing. And I think that's
one reason why she was so successful in that realm,
is that people like to hear her talk and like
to you know it. It drew people closer to her,
and it's you know, you could fall in love with
her personality very very very easily, and you know, and
(16:55):
and for for my case, I mean, I don't you know,
I know she didn't think so, and maybe by by
other standards, I think she's.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
An attractive woman too, but you know she was.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
She just had a great look about her and a
great personality to boot, you know, and America fell in love,
and unfortunately, not just America, but the world fell in love,
and we lost her way too early, you know, at
the age of thirty two years old.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
And then there was this moment with the band that
I did not know about, the moment where the band
kicked out Michelle Phillips for the affair that she was
having with Jeene Clark of the Birds. Can you talk
about that?
Speaker 3 (17:39):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (17:40):
Absolutely, you know, I think once the dust settled for
from Denny and Michelle's fling, you know, Michelle stayed in
the house where that John she and John had rented.
Shortly after that came to light, and then but John
moved out and moved in with Denny, and then she,
you know, she began this affair with Jean Clark, who
(18:02):
she met through a mutual friend, and I think once
that came to light, it was it was too much
for John. It's just like, I can't deal with this
if you want. I think he told Denny and Mama
Cass that it's either me or her, you know, and
they couldn't afford to lose John. They could afford to
lose Michelle, or so they thought, you know, because.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
John was he was the Prinson.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
Without John, there is no mamas and papas, which is
why he's really kind of a focal point of this book.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
You know.
Speaker 4 (18:32):
It's kind of like the Beach Boys. You read a
book on the Beach Boys, it's going to be a
lot of focus on Brian Wilson. So so they did,
you know, John fired her after a concert where Jeene
Clark was in attendance, and John noticed and he fired
her in the parking lot, and a few days later
they sent her a formal letter, and you know, it
(18:55):
was the summer of nineteen sixty six, so it lasted
for about two months, and they brought in Joe Gidz,
who was Lou Adler's girlfriend at the time. She had
been the girlfriend of Jan Barry, of Jan and Dean
Uh and they had broken up shortly before he had
his car wreck that Uh you know, gave him resulted
in some brain damage.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
But you know, she was tall, another pretty blonde. She
was a former model. She was very musical.
Speaker 4 (19:21):
She had written songs and worked in the studio with
Jan and Dean and had recorded a single herself, so
she was kind of a natural replacement. But the thing was,
you know, the mam was in the papas was a
shared experience between four people, and I think it came
to light during that time period and that you know,
there was it.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Was Michelle was just wasn't.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
A cog you could take out and replace. You know,
she had been with them through thick and thin. They
were together in New York, they were together at.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
The Virgin Islands, they all.
Speaker 4 (19:51):
She was with them when they moved back out to
California and got signed to Dunhill, and they just couldn't
replace that, you know, she had an edge to her
that Jill didn't have. So he eventually brought her back
in right there at the end of summer and just
resumed as normal, And it actually kind of kicked off
a bit of a renaissance in John and Michelle's marriage.
(20:12):
They bought that house in bel Air and lived you knows,
as normally as they could for a little while, but then,
you know, bad behaviors made their way back in and
they eventually divorced.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
What was your conversation with Jill Gibson like for the book?
Speaker 4 (20:29):
It was very, very introspective. She's a very deep person.
She's an artist.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
You know.
Speaker 4 (20:34):
We communicated via email and she would always reply in
a very timely manner and with always with great depth.
She told me a great, the great story of them
meeting the Beatles. She was with them when they went
to London in nineteen sixty six in the summer there
and really gave me a first hand account of not
(20:54):
only meeting the Beatles, but several members of the Rolling
Stones and just and it's all detailed. The book people
can will enjoy and if you're a Beatles fan or
only stone Stan, you'll certainly enjoy the Mama's and the
papa shared experience with them.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
So do you ever think about the parallels of this
band for a band that would eventually mature in some
way and have its own legacy. The comparison between the
Mamas and the papas and the various affairs and Fleetwood Mac.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Yeah, I've heard that a lot. You know, It's funny.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
I didn't even really think of that writing it. And
I'm a big Fleetwood Mac fan, so it's like, you know,
but it's yeah, they were kind of Fleetwood Mac before
Fleetwood Mac, you know, and it was it was complicated.
But you know, I know there's a mini series out
there based on the life of the tumultuous relationship of
(21:52):
the most famous incarnation of Fleetwood maccause there were several
you know, with Lindsay Buckingham and Stevie Nicks and uh,
you know the movie the book. My book has already
been optioned for a movie or a limited edition series,
and I really think the story of the Mamas and
the Poppets could be a great limited edition series right
right there with daj Shones in the sixth because it
(22:14):
rights itself.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
And there's a cliffhanger there.
Speaker 4 (22:17):
Already built in for every episode. But you know, it
was the same thing, you know, just affairs and broken
hearts and jealousies, and.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
It was it was there before the Fleet, before Fleetwood
Mac even brought it to another level.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
So three ring Circus it was what it was.
Speaker 4 (22:34):
Right, Yeah, for sure, for sure, you know, and the
three principles being well, actually yeah, I guess you could
say Sean is in there, but definitely Danny, Michelle and Cash.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Yeah. So if you were their manager during that period,
what would you have tried to do to steer the course.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
Ah? Boy, that's a good question.
Speaker 4 (22:58):
You know, it's tough because you know, we talked about
the Monterey Pop Festival how that really changed music.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
It was, it brought it.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
It really kind of gave us what we now referred
to as classic rock because that was right after that.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
Was the.
Speaker 4 (23:16):
All those San Francisco groups really started to hit and
albums became a bigger thing than singles, and do you
had power trios like Cream and the Jimmy Hendricks experience
and the Mamas and the Papas struggled to find a
footing in that, and that's the very thing that they
had created. You know, harmony groups didn't do too well
(23:38):
in the post Monterey world. You think of the Beach
Boys and the Four Seasons and the Mamas and the Papas,
and you know, you eventually had this oldies revival that
you know, the Mamas and the Beach Boys in the
Four Seasons were able to kind of get back, get
their footing back, and really rejuvenate their careers.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
But the Mamas and the Papas just couldn't do that.
Speaker 4 (23:58):
So, I mean, I guess if I would have in
that era, I would have to get to work and
just try to figure out how to make this four
piece treat four piece quartet the thing's harmony relevant.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
In this age. And that's that's a tough That was
a tough would have been a tough order. And we
see it the Mamas.
Speaker 4 (24:17):
And the Papas their fourth album, The Papas and the
Mamas of not the greatest title in the world. It
was a good album and it came out right there
in nineteen sixty eight during that time, but it's not
very memorable. You know, there's no real super standout tracks.
There's good tracks, aren't this fan favorites for sure, but
nothing like what had come before it, like Creaky Alley
(24:38):
or California Dreaming or I saw her again. So I
think if I were there, I think if I were
their manager, I don't know if I would have done
been any better than Lou Adler or whoever else came in,
Bobby Roberts and all those other guys that came in.
But I would just definitely say, we got to focus
on finding our footing here and how we're going to
stay relevant in this era.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Might have been a visit to an addiction councilor possibly too, I.
Speaker 4 (25:05):
Don't know, And remember that that time and period he
was hip to be on drugs.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
True. Well, Scott, congratulations on all the leaves of brown,
how the Mamas and the papas came together and broke apart.
Your new book on Backbeat, and congratulations on it, and
thank you for being on taking a Walk.
Speaker 4 (25:28):
Well, thank you boys, I really appreciate you having me on.
And just if listeners want to, you know, learn to
buy the book, and so you can go to my
website scotch a author dot com, Shaft at s h
G A and we'll give you links to Amazon and
Barnes and Noble Books A million, and the audiobook just
dropped the other day, so if that's your preferred method
of getting through a book, you can pick that up
(25:50):
as well.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Thank you, Scott, I appreciate it, Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Taking a Walk with Buzznight is available on Spotify Podcasts
or wherever you get your podcasts
Speaker 3 (26:07):
MHM.
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